Did you see this piece on USA Today? Has the weight now shifted so that the “battle” is effectively over? I think it has.
You get the sense, observing the shifting cultural landscape, that we’ve reached a point on gay rights that is similar to that moment in a football game, or an election, or a relationship, when you know it’s over even though it’s not over.
It appears increasingly obvious that social acceptance of gay men and lesbians and insistence on their equal rights are inexorable. If the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell” weren’t enough to signal the turning point, or the classification of several gay-resisting Christian right organizations as “hate groups” by the Southern Poverty Law Center, there came news that Exodus International was ending its involvement in the anti-homosexuality “Day of Truth” in U.S. high schools. “We need to equip kids to live out biblical tolerance and grace,” Exodus President Alan Chambers explained, “while treating their neighbors as they’d like to be treated, whether we agree with them or not.”
Add it up, and you see a decision point at hand for socially conservative Christian groups such as the Family Research Council that have led resistance to gay rights. Do they fight to the last ditch, continue shouting the anti-gay rhetoric that rings false and mean to the many Americans who live and work with gay people, or who themselves are gay? Or do they soften their tone and turn their attention to other fronts?
Prayerful discernment and simple Christian decency would strongly suggest the latter. The alternative looks worse by the day — a quixotic battle more likely to discredit its fighters and their fine religion than win any hearts and minds for Jesus. Christianity has far worthier causes than this.
For all its drama and rally-the-troops appeal, “fighting to the end” is a sure loser. More and more Americans — young people in particular, Christians very much included — know gay men and lesbians and see how the anti-gay talking points and caricatures fail to square with the reality under our noses.
“Young Christians increasingly have family members who are gay, have people in their lives who really matter to them who are gay, and that changes how they approach these issues,” says Gabe Lyons, author of the new bookThe Next Christians and a leader and chronicler of the new generation of evangelicals. “This doesn’t mean their convictions on the matter have changed, but in this new environment, people don’t want to see their friends being discriminated against; they don’t want them labeled as someone who should be feared and blamed.”
Of course, rubbing some people the wrong way is of little concern if you’re convinced you’re representing the Straight from the Bible, Capital-T Truth, as conservative Christian organizations are quick to assert. The problem is that such a stance is increasingly difficult to maintain as society begins taking a more complex look at what the bible says and doesn’t say about sex, and as growing ranks of unchurched Americans ask why it even matters what the Bible says.
Scot,
I think you are right – the weight has shifted, and within the greater culture the battle is over. The proper response? Well this is a different issue.
Personally I think that the proper response is to live out and teach a kingdom vision of love and compassion on a one-on-one basis. Discipleship.
I think that for the most part it is all over but the shouting, we now get down to the nitty gritty details of what that acceptance will look like.
I think gay marriage will be completely legal in the US within a decade or so. So hospital room visits, health and life benefits will all become issues of the past.
The next battle is what forms of “conscientious objection” will be tolerable to society. Free speech and religious speech has been abridged in Canada, but I think ministers will still be allowed to exposit religious texts as they see fit here in the US.
The biggest battle lines I see being drawn here are the “rights” of individual religious persons and businesses owned by religious persons to refuse to provide services for events they deemd morally questionable – I have in mind here wedding planners, wedding photographers, bed and breakfast operators, etc. I know a B&B owner in the UK has been sued for refusing to rent a room to a homosexual couple…the defendant has claimed that they also refuse to rent to unmarried heterosexual couples, but nevertheless.
In the end, I think that battle will be lost as well. Pastors, cake decorators, wedding planners, B&B operators, etc. that refuse to provide services because of the perceived immorality of the underlying act will capitulate or be forced out of business, but I think that fight will drag on much longer than the fights regarding “general gay acceptance”, gay marriage, health and life insurance benefits, and other publci sector aspects.
Interesting. I don’t know if the weight has shifted or if it’s a matter of perception as National Organization for Marriage chairman Maggie Gallagher claimed in an interview that was published yesterday at NRO. Here’s what she said:
“Actually, marriage was on a big roll last week. A marriage amendment passed the Wyoming senate 20 to 10 (a two-thirds vote was required), after moving through the house judiciary committee, also by a two-thirds margin. In Indiana, a marriage amendment just passed the critical hurdle of the house judiciary committee, which had bottled up marriage amendments for years. In Rhode Island, neither the speaker nor the governor showed up at the hearings — even though Governor Chafee has (absurdly) called gay marriage a key part of his economic-development plan. Legislators are getting hammered with phone calls from constituents in both Maryland and Rhode Island, and things the Left once considered “done deals” in those states are now in danger.
That’s not what you hear, of course, because most of the media — and functionally, even much of the conservative media — is pro-gay-marriage, or at least anti-anti-gay-marriage.
For instance, what was the big news about gay marriage this week? Historic new victories in Wyoming and Indiana? Huge new crowds turning out against same-sex marriage in Rhode Island and Maryland? Legislators getting slammed with phone calls from constituents opposing SSM?
No. The big story was that one Maryland senator changed his vote to favor gay marriage. Gay-marriage advocates are still several votes shy of what they need, even though Maryland is one of the bluest states in the nation, but never mind the facts: “Big victory inevitable” is always the message you hear, no matter what the facts are.
James Davison Hunter is right: Cultural power is the power to name reality. They have far more cultural power than we do, and they name our realities.”
Here’s the link to the interview:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/259681/defense-marriage-law-and-reality-kathryn-jean-lopez
“Young Christians increasingly have family members who are gay, have people in their lives who really matter to them who are gay, and that changes how they approach these issues”
I think this is a great thing. Jesus lived with the people he wanted to love and save. How could we do any less toward the GBLT community? Not to mention that actually knowing a person who is gay will make us think twice about the impact of our words.
cas,
I don’t think these legislative decisions are the driving factor. They are largely irrelevant. They follow – they do not lead.
I think the change is in the attitudes of youth and in the cultural “elite” and it is permeating the entire atmosphere. This doesn’t mean the whole thing is over, but the slope is different and the tide has turned.
I tend to agree that it is mainly over and in fact I do not think that the battle should have been fought as it has. To a great extent I think that although homosexuality is immoral, it should not be illegal. In Canada homosexual marriage is allowed. IMO it would have been better to allow civil unions and leave the marriage business to churches. Further any two people should be able to form such a union regardless of whether or not sexual activity is involved.
Robin outlines what will be the real issues in the years to come. Likely the left and gnus will attempt to shut down churches that do not allow regularly practicing homosexual members etc.
Dave W
Agreed, good call ref.
Like the democratic revolutions underway, I feel that this is a movement based on information. The internet has made everyone a neighbor and provided sufficient safe space so people can warm up to an idea without getting burnt. It is about understanding people as an individual as opposed to a group of Other, and as rjs says, “teach a kingdom vision of love and compassion”.
Rather than shaping public opinion, I believe that one of the most important roles these groups play is their lobbying efforts in state capitals and in Washington. That part of it is still critical, in my opinion.
The dilemna for Christians is that Homosexuality is a destructive lifestle that costs those involved a great deal. For us to quit talking about it in the public square seems, to me, like we are avoiding our calling to be compassionate.
I will concede that what a fair number of these groups have been saying is often inarticulate or they inaccurately represenst a Biblical position. Christians young and old are willing to give up because we feel as though our argument is week. The problem is that we have been arguing the wrong argument!
The real answer, of course, is that the Church makes disciples.
I think the first-amendment protections for religion are too strong to make it possible for the state to compel churches to do anything they don’t want to do. E.g., many churches still institutionalize sexism, and thanks to the first amendment, the government is powerless to stop them.
I think there will be a misguided few examples of people who *try* to force a church to do something-or-other, and some Christians will seize on those incidents as evidence of widespread persecution. Matthew 5:11 will gets quoted, and those Christians will get a shot of assurance that A) they are being persecuted, so B) they must be right.
“The problem is that such a stance is increasingly difficult to maintain as society begins taking a more complex look at what the bible says and doesn’t say about sex, and as growing ranks of unchurched Americans ask why it even matters what the Bible says.”
Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter what the unchurched/unbeliever says. What matters is what Jesus and the New and Old testament writers say – and it’s pretty clear – whether we’re talking about the Chaldeans or Romans that they condemn sin in all forms – including homosexuality.
I will readily grant that conservative groups have acted hypocritically in putting their politics ahead of the Gospel and have put homosexuality in a class by itself while ignoring equally egregious sins in their own camp…overeating anyone?
But the Gospel isn’t about better politics, but changed hearts that turn from sin to the sacrificial life and atonement of Jesus Christ. And left or right, this discussion is a good example of why Christians need to get out politics all together. Vote? Yes. Beyond that? Mmmm, while I have to allow for Christian freedom here, I don’t think most avenues beyond basic civic participation are all that healthy towards loving your brother, neighbor or enemy in the context of Christian faith.
Peace.
Brad
“rubbing some people the wrong way”?
Is that some kind of pun?
Quote: “The dilemna for Christians is that Homosexuality is a destructive lifestyle that costs those involved a great deal.”
I actually think statements like this expose the out-dated assumptions about a “gay lifestyle” (which includes assumptions about perverse promiscuity and disease).
Our biblical perspective has to address the truth today, and not linger on out-dated assumptions that expose our ignorance and make our points moot before we can even get to Scripture. We have to apply the words of Scripture to the reality that many gay people live happy productive lives and are in long-term committed relationships and raise healthy children, and their only heartache is caused by being shunned or rejected by homophobic people like many Christians. Any anti-gay teaching that does not acknowledge this reality (i.e., blanket statements calling it destructive and saying it costs people a great deal) is going to be ignored by Christians and non-Christians alike who know better because gay people are their beloved, trusted friends and family.
We have to get real on this subject, or no one will listen to what we have to say.
Rita said:
Nicely done.
Someone very close to me is in one such relationship and this person is the sweetest person…..a real kingdom dweller. Saying “and their only heartache is caused by being shunned or rejected by homophobic people like many Christians.” really hits home to me. This person has not come out yet, and they probably will never come out for exactly that reason. Instead, they will just have a roommate instead of a spouse.
If some Christians have been guilty of bigotry, I believe the far more common response is simply fear, or a great sense of unease. I believe it will become increasingly difficult for the church to teach what Biblical morality is, if the culture says that sex “before, during and after marriage” are all ok, and that homosexuality is ok. I don’t think it far fetched to forcast the possibility of persecution, should the church even take a passive (We won’t marry gays) stand. Today I had a conversation with a man whose church-the sign on the front says Anglican-is in a battle with the ECUSA. He feels that in the end they will have to ‘buy back’ their building, or walk away.
I have read Gabe Lyons, and liked his book; I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers–I do feel we will have to take some sort of stand, albeit hopefully not a militant one. And I think there will be a price paid for this.
I have a lot of gay friends and acquaintances; I certainly don’t ‘hate’ them, but I am more uneasy by the day over all the attempts to mainstream their lifestyle into our society. Should we be loving and Christlike in our dealings with those with same-sex orientations? Yes. But we need to speak the truth in love; which I think is gettting tougher to do all the time; simply because people don’t see anything wrong with sexual sin.
It’s probably true, and if not, it’s probably only a matter of time. We’re running the pattern of corruption Paul outlined in Romans.
But is the fight over, or it is just the media and educational elites who want us to believe it is? This is definitely a case where repeating the lie can make it true if you can convince the other side to give up the fight.
@ Mark Rigsby, #8, wrote: The dilemna for Christians is that Homosexuality is a destructive lifestle that costs those involved a great deal.
This, to me, sounds like a stinger of hate that dehumanizes LGBT brothers and sisters. And the “destructive” part experienced has been due to cultural demonization of “the other” and verbal, psychological and even physical abuse directed as such individuals.
I fully believe same s3x marriage will be legal in most states (and by federal recognition via taxes, survivor benefits, etc) within the decade.
Churches will be tested over this issue. We will see some attempts at forcing churches to accept or recognize same s3x marriages and perform that at some level. It is the inevitable end of the movement. Ministers will have their ordinations challenged and churches will have their tax exempt status challenged over the issue.
It will force churches to come down on this issue. Hopefully they will respond biblically and not culturally. It will be interesting to see how far this issue will go. I have several friends and family members who are for gay marriage and practice that lifestyle. I am not swayed in my position that it is sinful and needs to seek the grace and forgiveness of God because I know them.
Perhaps one of the results is it will push the Church to finally recognize that while so many have been openly campaigning against one form of s3xual sin they have kept their eyes pretty closed to hetero couples who engage in premarital relations and live together before marriage. The biblical standard goes both ways.
Should be interesting to see where this pushes the conversation in the Church over the next decade.
Great, very thoughtful editorial in Christianity Today recently: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/february/toughgracesexstandards.html
In Americanized Christianity, too many people equate morality with faith. The two are separate, although morality can certainly be built upon faith. The thing that always gets me is why does homosexuality seem to be the sin that is singled out and fought against more than any other sin? Why the fixation? Aren’t all sins sinful? Why not take up a cause against adultery or tax evasion?
Time to move on with other issues and causes. Although homosexuality is oppressive, it’s still a choice. Whereas, little girls kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery is not. Time to be a real light to the world and fight against social injustices.
RJS,
As someone who has taken a strong pro-life stand in my writing, I’ve thought a lot about law vs. persuasion because I’ve never been particularly interested in fighting the legal battle over abortion. However, I understand the importance of that battle. It was the case with civil rights that a change in law preceded many a change of heart. I think they go hand in hand. Gallagher may overstate her case, but I find it compelling when she says, “James Davison Hunter is right: Cultural power is the power to name reality. They have far more cultural power than we do, and they name our realities.” As a journalist, I want to know what the facts are and I think the suggestion that a certain reality is projected onto the facts about this issue has merit.
Also, as someone who has spent the last two years working in public high schools, I would say homosexuality is much more out in the open than it was even ten years ago when my kids were in school. Kids repeat all the things they’ve been taught about tolerance, but I’m not sure they all really believe them. There’s still plenty of bigotry. Like racism, it’s gone underground.
Hi Rita,
“We have to apply the words of Scripture to the reality that many gay people live happy productive lives and are in long-term committed relationships and raise healthy children, and their only heartache is caused by being shunned or rejected by homophobic people like many Christians.”
What about Atheists? Many of them live productive lives (by modern standards) have long-term committed relationships and raise healthy kids. But that doesn’t make them spiritually productive or Christian, and it doesn’t necessitate that we rewrite the Gospel to fit the times and/or their lives. Cultural perceptions or practices do not determine the truth of something, and most societies in human history (in the 20th century particularly) have learned the hard way that a plurality of opinion isn’t a good basis for objective truth.
The Gospel also doesn’t define the highest good as simply having a good job, keeping your spouse and having well-adjusted kids…if that were true, then the moralists in both political camps are right – even though their views contradict each other. The Gospel defines the highest good (in humans terms) as having such a faith in Jesus Christ that homosexuality, bitterness, outbursts of violence and anger, doubts, greed, envies, lusts of all kinds and all other evils fade away in the happy pursuit of his excellence and love.
And if you think that many Christians are “homophobic” because they believe what the Gospel says about sin and what is a sin – as if the modern definition of homophobia should trump what the Gospel says we should believe – then you’re injecting ad homs into your argument. Because while I have no doubt that many people do irrationally fear homosexuals, such irational fears do not prove or disprove anything as to whether or not the Gopsel considers the lifestyle permissible.
For that we have to consult the text itself.
Peace.
Brad
Lots of divorced families live happy, productive lives. That doesn’t change the fact that God hates divorce. Nor does it change the fact that divorcees should be ministered to with compassion and honesty.
Lots of addicts live happy, productive lives. That doesn’t change the fact that addiction is unhealthy and destructive to the spirit. Nor does it change the fact that addicts should be ministered to with compassion and honesty.
The fact that the powers in the culture now generally approve of homosexuality hardly curbs the prophetic mandate to speak truth to those powers. While the truth has been “defended” in ways that are painfully anti-gospel, I will continue to applaud Tom Wright, Richard Hays, and others who will not compromise their exegesis and their historical investigation to please the culture that clamors for its ears to be scratched.
Scot, thanks for the post. I hope and pray that the anti-gay rhetoric that has been so prevalent in some Christian organizations comes to an end. I may disagree on specifics with Exodus International’s organization, but I am happy to see them disassociating themselves from this “Day of Truth.” They recognized that day had become, in the words of Exodus President Alan Chambers, “more about policy than people” and could be perceived as adversarial. They will continue on with their ministry, and I can continue believing what I believe, and we can disagree without being adversaries.
Does anyone question the argument that homosexuality is an (equal) alternative lifestyle? I am aware of many of my shortcomings and sins, but i don’t advocate them as an alternative equal to the higher calling of a kingdom way of life.
Yes, we live with and love those around us. But, in my opinion, we don’t accept fallacious arguments.
The fight is over, but if I know anything about those who oppose gay rights, they will make fools of themselves to the bitter end rather than allow the rainbow scourge to take over the country. Forgive me if I sound bitter. I’m just tired of my fellow Christians making asses of themselves in the name of being “right”.
Well, I guess I’ve just crossed over the “old fashioned” threshold. I’ll stand by my belief that every person struggles with being self-absorbed in one or more ways, and homosexuality is still one among a multitude of manifestations of it.
Well said, Jeff.
I am a PCUSA pastor and a veteran of the last three decades of internecine warfare over the issue of sexuality and ordination. I have moved from advocacy opposing same-sex activity and ordination of practicing gays and lesbians to deep concerns about the strategy of both sides of the issue to try a win by polity (changing church policy to disallow or allow certain practices)to seriously reconsidering the process altogether using 1 Corinthians 6 as a model. I think this process has potential to disarm us, surprise us, and offer the world a winsome witness to the gospel. I’ve posted a copy of it on my blog godswordourwordsandtheworld.blogspot.com. if any are interested in seeing it.
I do think we have lost the cultural battle. Our pitched last-ditch battles will only further harm our witness. The time for dealing with that reality is here. We need to find creative and reconciling ways to negotiate this difficult spot.
Peace,
Lee
Watchman #19
“The thing that always gets me is why does homosexuality seem to be the sin that is singled out and fought against more than any other sin?”
I think a key a factor is the aggressive movement to reclassify something that has traditionally been called sin as blessed by God. That provokes a focused response. I don’t think it is fair to say that conservative Christians just pulled this sin out the bag one day as something to harp on. But even with that said, I do think the taking a particular stand on homosexuality issues has become a way to signify loyalty to a larger cultural enterprise (“I’m for social justice” or “I’m for biblical Christianity.)
Michael #29 – I don’t ever hear the argument coming from homosexuals that their lifestyle is blessed by God. In fact, most homosexuals that I know don’t even believe in God. Or, keep God out of the equation. I am who I am.
No. The answer is quite simple. It’s become a political issue relegated to the religious right and right-wing politics. If you’re gay, you can’t possibly be a Christian and you most certainly shouldn’t be a Republican.
I have an issue with the current conversation that I don’t think has been discussed while I have been reading this blog. That is, what is the value in diversity in the Christian community?
In most business settings and management schools these days people acknowledge that there is an inherent propensity for managers to hire people just like them, and for organizations to employ people, just like them. But, it is obvious that most organizations can benefit tremendously from avoiding group think and instead going outside the established guardrails to check current assumptions. That seems to be obvious, except for the case of religious organizations in general.
Certainly we have seen the move within Christianity to bring other voices to the forefront – embracing the female perspective immediately comes to mind – but we seldom seek out those who are different in less obvious ways. We all agree that obesity is a sin in some way, but we don’t all agree that being gay is a sin. Yet those who think being gay is a sin will shun and shut out those who are gay and never benefit from their perspective.
Why can’t we have a faith that embraces diversity instead of discouraging it?
Lee,
Does it not strike you as ironic to cite that text? One of the stronger anti-homosexuality behavior texts in the NT?
Having said that, I like the drift of your argument — because I see it as cruciform — though the text of 1 Cor 6 is really about Christian squabbles being settled in court wherein the Christians have appealed to non-Christians to find justice.
As I see it today, Christians are fighting amongst themselves without resolution while others are seeking to get the judicial system to “stem the tide” by finding in favor of a traditionalist view of marriage. I would ask with you: Do Christians win when they play this game? Is our goal to win judicial battles or to offer an alternative gospel to our culture?
#30 Watchman
“I don’t ever hear the argument coming from homosexuals that their lifestyle is blessed by God.”
You clearly haven’t been to a General Assembly of the PCUSA or any other Mainline denominational gathering in the past 30 years.
I think a key a factor is the aggressive movement to reclassify something that has traditionally been called sin as blessed by God.
And what should not be forgotten is that government defines what is illegal, not what is sinful. While Conservative Christians simply do not understand the distinction, others would like to erase it.
Which leads us to Divorce and the modern Conservative Christian. As a group they seem to have recognized their failure to live as Christ demands. In thinking of the recent past, I believe they have decided that governmental prohibitions were necessary to counter their sinful appetites. Thus they see the mistake repeated in the legalization of same sex marriage. But being prevented from sinning by coercion is not Christ’s answer to sin, for Salvation can not be achieved by involuntary means.
Michael #33 – Touche.
In the world I’m not sure whether it’s more accurate to say the weight has shifted or to say in a way it’s right where it’s always been. What concerns me more are indications the weight is shifting/has shifted in the Church. Some of those indications I see in some of the comments posted above
Those of you who think homosexuality is not called sin in the Bible, or think it is but Bible is just wrong about it – please say so and be done with it. At least
then the Church and the world will know where you stand. Stop being squishy about it.
Rather than trying to force non-Christians to behave like Christians, which is not the mission of the Church, I’m more than content to apply 1 Cor. 5: 11-13, but within the Church we need to stop being content with less.
Scot,
can you comment on the issues that surround the Apostle Paul’s terminology when he discussed sexual immorality? I’ve read that he used a word, “arsenakatoi,” that has not been found anywhere else in extant ancient Greek documents. Some scholars apparently believe it had to do more with male cult prostitutes than with what we would term “gay” today.
Jeff L: Ben Witherington has an article which discusses this up right now.
12 & 16…
I am not making an assumption when I say that it is destructive to the people involved. My statement is backed up by research and by antectdotal evidence. Yes, anyone can name people who who are both gay and happy. That is not the issue. What neither of you can deny is that there are many who have been hurt because of it.
So, my post was not a call for Christians to “hate” as 16 stated. It is precisely the opposite. God’s commands are always given with our best in mind. Oftentimes they are given as a warning about the consequences that await us. That is certainly true of homosexuality. And Christians must love enough to point that out.
Calling my comments “outdated” or a “hateful stinger” is setting up a straw man. It does not address the argument with an effective counter argument.
One last point. One thing that the digital revolution cannot manufacture is intended tone. I suppose there are writers who have the ability to express intended feeling and emotion in their writing. I am not one of them. So, I kindly ask for grace.
Mark Rigsby #39 – What do you mean by “hurt”? Many people have been hurt by heterosexual relationships too. Indeed, some of the most destructive relationships I know have been heterosexual. Perhaps defining what you mean by “destructive” and “hurtful” would help clarify your point.
Having been in the church for over 66 years, and now viewing myself as a recovering evangelical, I view this discussion with some amusement. While earnest Christians worry about how to live, some of just live the best life we can. We take the shema, add the great commission and give away love. I just let the God of All sort through the results. Worrying about ones orthodoxy does nothing but cause delay in living abundantly in this kingdom we’ve been given.
“…take the shema, add the great commission and give away love.” Let’s make that the great commandment. I guess I have a bit more recovering to do.
As the father of a teen, I see them having the same attitude about gay relationships as they do about relationships between people of different races or ethnic groups… they don’t care. Relationships that were unthinkable when I was a teen are now accepted. I grew up hearing that “race mixing” was un-Biblical.
it was until i was in seminary that i realized “women in ministry” was an issue in the church. i guess one could say that the time period in which i grew up taught me that men and women were equal and could perform essentially the same work if they were gifted and called.
is it possible that this generation will help us see homosexuality in the same light?
i know. i know. the conversation isn’t exactly the same. the Bible doesn’t say being a woman is a sin. but Paul at least seems to be clear that women are to remain quiet and many of us are willing to look past that. why can’t we look past the three or four references to homosexuality?
i think what my generation, and the one after me, is asking for is a consistent hermeneutic. we allow divorced pastors to remarry and serve. we allow gluttonous, selfish, prideful, arrogant pastors to serve. we allow greedy people to serve. in fact, in many ways we encourage greed, gluttony and arrogance, yet homosexuality is the ONE sin that we fight against.
ugh. can we have a conversation about the PEOPLE? can we choose to err on the side of LOVE?!
Let me “second” John’s (#38) recommendation of Ben Witherington’s post.
http://www.patheos.com/community/bibleandculture/2011/02/14/eros-defended-or-eros-defiled-what-do-wesley-and-the-bible-say/
Brad –
Yeah, what about atheists?
I mean, you’re free to disfellowship with atheists in your Church. But are you in favor of amendments forbidding atheists from marrying? Should atheists be barred from the armed forces? Should it be illegal for an atheist to parade around on Sunday away from church?
As R Hampton pointed out, “government defines what is illegal, not what is sinful”. Are you arguing for blasphemy laws?
Mark Rigsby –
“The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’.”
I would also commend these two pieces by Tom Wright (well, an essay and an interview) on the topic.
Communion and Koinonia: Pauline Reflection on Tolerance and Boundaries
Interview with Anglican Bishop N.T. Wright of Durham, England
Ray, I think he was just pointing out that from the Christian perspective that if we accept that the Bible conclusively states that homosexual behavior is a sin and will separate you from God, that is a big problem no matter where you fit into our success/psychological healthiness categories. If you’re drowning and happy, you’re still drowning.
I don’t think he was advocating anything in regards to either atheists or homosexuals. It seemed more pointing out the weakness of the argument to the intended audience.
Jeremy – Fair enough, but Scot’s original post talked about “equal rights” and so forth. I was hoping for such clarification.
I’ve tried to comment, but my comment keeps getting rejected as spam for reasons I can’t identify. Oh well. I guess you’ll have to do without my wisdom.