Miroslav Volf, Professor at Yale, on the dedication page of his new book — Allah: A Christian Response, says this:
To my father, a Pentecostal minister who admired Muslims, and taught me as a boy that they worship the same God as we do.
Volf’s quest is to build a theological basis for peaceful co-existence and peaceful cooperation among Muslims and Christians, and his quest is to contend that the God of the Christians and the God of the Muslims is the “same” God. He nuances this very carefully, and I want to begin that discussion in earnest this morning.
What do you think of his view of the meaning of “same” as “sufficiently similar”? Are they “sufficiently similar” for to use the word “same”?
There has been a dust-up in Indonesia over whether or not Christians in those countries can use the word “Allah” for their God in their Bibles and in their worship. And many Christians in the West, and Volf draws on statements made by Al Mohler, contend that Christians ought not to use the word “Allah” because that word is used for a God unlike the God of the Bible.
Volf’s contention gets technical, arguing that “same” does not mean “identical.” Instead, what Volf argues that what is needed is that they are “sufficiently similar.” Clearly affirming that the Gospel of John equates God with Jesus and knowing God through knowing Jesus, Volf observes that those who rejected Jesus — Jesus’ Jewish opponents — still were considered as people who were connected to the one true God (John 5:18; 8:39-58). Volf is illustrating what he means by “sufficiently similar” to be called the “same” God.
Which now leads him to the specific beliefs, and after sketching the sufficiently similar claims by Gregory VII and Nostra Aetate from Vatican II, he sketches four sufficiently similar themes about God:
1. There is only one God, the one and only divine being: Mark 12:29; Muhammad 47:19.
2. God created everything that is not God: Genesis 1:1; Al Shura 42:11.
3. God is different from everything that is not God: 1 Timothy 6:16; Al An’am 6:103.
4. God is good: 1 John 4:16; Al Buruj 85:14.
Therefore, the God of the two is sufficiently similar. “Whoever agrees on these four convictions about God refers to the same ‘object’ when talking about God” (101).
But “belief” is not “worship,” and so Volf carefully spells out the meaning of “worship”: and here he departs from the populist mode of thinking, which sees worship as raising hands in a “worship” service and expands the word to its biblical proportions: it is how we live. What we worship and how we worship tell us who our God is. I totally agree with him here: our worship reveals our God.
He argues this can be reduced, as I do in my own work, to loving God and loving others. He appeals to Deuteronomy 6:5 and to Al Zimar 39:45, which only says “God, One and Only” and from this he sees a basic total devotion to God. And then clearly the Bible and Qu’ran are the same on loving others: Matthew 7:12 (Golden Rule) and The Hadith: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself.” If love is central, the God of that worship is a God of love: worship reveals the character of the God we worship.
He shows the Ten Commandments are essentially parallel.
Therefore: “to the extent that God’s commands express God’s character, Muslims and Christians worship the same God” (108-109).
Summary:
1. There is only one God.
2. God is creator.
3. God is radically different.
4. God is good.
5. God commands we love God.
6. God commands we love others.
“When Christians and Muslims agree on the above six claims about God, then in their worship of God they refer to the same object” (110-111).
[I'm not convinced Volf is sufficiently christological here; but he's not done.]
“Volf observes that those who rejected Jesus — Jesus’ Jewish opponents — still were considered as people who were connected to the one true God (John 5:18; 8:39-58).”
What does “connected” really mean in this context?
The passages used do not really seem to support his claim, especially the John 8 verses (v. 54-55a: “Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him.”)
Am I missing something here?
“I’m not convinced Volf is sufficiently christological here”. That seems to be an understatement.
It is early morning here, and I cannot recall the exact pericopes, but I am sure that there’s is much in Paul’s letters to the church at Rome that supports this view.
And among what I seem to recall the most is Paul writing all people having the knowledge of God’s law, even if they do not know THE Law. And Paul writing how we Gentile Christians being grafted on the vine of the People of Israel, ant those who rejected Jesus being grated back on as well.
Suppose everyone suddenly agrees that Christians and Muslims both worship the same God. What then? What advantage or benefit does it yield? What does it enable that was not possible before? What difference does it actually make?
God is good? That is not what that verse 85:14 says exactly. It says God is lenient and compassionate. However, most Islamic theologians would not say that God is completely good because he also does evil.
Also, it is interesting that Volf had to resort to hadith in order to find love for neighbor in Islam.
As I mentioned before, you can find all these things in Islam but they are not central to it and they are balanced out by opposite statements.
Islam is not about revealing God or His character. It is about revealing His will and His law. The Way of Islam is explained over and over as “right guidance.” The Bible, in contrast, often refers to God being our guide, but I don’t recall being promised guidance apart from Him as guide. Volf is making the mistake that a lot of people make in trying to understand Islam within our Biblical framework of values. True understanding comes when you let Islam be explained on it’s own terms – something that is not a goal of interfaith dialogue.
Why should worshiping the same diety be necessary for peaceful coexistence in the first place? What then would be the basis for peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Hindus, or for that matter between Christians and Hindus?
Looking at my Qur’an now: I think that love verse referred to is actually 85:15 not 85:14. (Verse numbers in the Qur’an follow the verse instead of precede it.)
You could also translate it “forgiving and (wuduud)favorable disposed” Loving would be muHibb, a stronger word in Arabic and, as far as I know, it is never used in the Qur’an when talking about God.
Jeff #3,
The benefit of agreeing that there is only one God is that it keeps Christians from looking like polytheists and guilty of the worst of sins – shirk, associating others with the One God. Also, it means that we are not accusing them of that same sin. Thirdly, it is bridge rather than a wall. If they accept that we worship the one God, then they will listen to our witness. If we present ourselves as People of the Book, we have credibility. If we say that there is no connection between what they believe and what we believe, we demean their whole theological heritage.
I’m not convinced that modern forms of interfaith dialogue are very fruitful, but it’s better than arguing over who has the right god.
I guess my reservations about Volf’s argument is in its technical nature. Not that being technical is bad! But when he has to explain in such detail how he can legitimately use the word “same” and that “same” does not mean “identical,” I start to wonder if the payoff is worth the cost of getting there. Are we going to have to constantly explain ourselves when we talk this way so that people know that this “same” God we worship is not “identical”? I think people at the street level are going to roll their eyes and cry foul.
I guess I’m skeptical that the word “same” is capable of bearing the weight of Volf’s careful clarifications once it’s set loose in the wild.
Thanks for the review. Hopefully I’ll get a chance to read the book in the not-too-distant future.
From Volf: “Jesus’ Jewish opponents — still were considered as people who were connected to the one true God (John 5:18; 8:39-58).”
To say the least, I am baffled by Volf’s citation of these passages. They make the exact opposite point Volf does.
On #5 – “God commands we love God”, this is true, but the God of the Bible commands we love Him with “all our hearts, soul, and mind” whereas Allah in the Quran does not. Muslims are commanded to love Allah so they may thereby obtain Allah’s love and forgiveness. The motivation to love Allah’s is the welfare and comfort of the believer. This is not genuine love, since it has selfish motives.
This short article entitled “The Love of God in the Quran and the Bible” explains this very well:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/love.html
Jeff #3
It will help Christians to stop bearing false witness against Muslims. It was not too long ago on this blog (in the comments) that Muslims were called idol worshipers. The only excuse for such a label is a stubborn will to ignore the core of Islamic belief.
Linda #10,
I’m puzzled. Aren’t we also commanded to love God for our own benefit and not His? He gains nothing from our love except a return on His love for us.
Muslims are also supposed to love God;there’s just no guarantee that He will love you back. It’s true that the Muslims believe God’s love is conditional, but that’s a different issue.
Can anyone speak to whether or not Mohammed had access to the Bible. It seems many hold him accountable for the revelation found in the OT and NT simply because they were written before his time.
Percival – if you only show love to a person to get something from them that is not real love. It has motivations that are self-centered only.
Percival #7,
Christians and Muslims already have in common the belief that there is one God who created all. Agreeing that they worship the same God does not remove the problem of Christians having to explain the nature of the Trinity. So “same God” rhetoric really offers nothing that was not already present.
Recognizing difference between the God of the Christian and that of the Muslim is not an accusation of sin. Nor would “same God” rhetoric solve that even if it were an accusation because it soon become apparent the Christians and Muslims have some very fundamental differences in the God each believes. So, again, “same God” rhetoric presents no advantage and solves no problem.
If similarity between the Christianity and Islam is a bridge, then there is already a bridge in that each professes faith in one God who created all. If differences between the two faiths is a wall, then it is clear that there are some very fundamental differences between the two religions, and, to follow the wall metaphor, walls whose foundations run deep. Once again, “same God” rhetoric presents no advantage here and solves no problem.
When Christians confess that we worship God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, it should be clear that, inasmuch as Islam denies that Jesus is God and we worship Jesus as God, that we do not worship the same God as they. To come in with “same God” rhetoric and then spring the Trinity on them, including our confession that Jesus is God — well, that seems more like a bait and switch tactic than truth in advertising. Again, I think that “same God” rhetoric presents no advantage but may actually be harmful. Much better, I think, to be clear and open about our differences. We are going to have to explain the differences either way.
The book Muslims are the people of is the Quran. The OT and NT are tertiary books for them, and Islam feels free to alter and even deny portions to suit the Quran. They deny important aspects of NT teaching, especially regarding Jesus — His identity, the Cross and the Resurrection. These are not superficial differences but fundamental ones. “Same God” and “people of the book” rhetoric cannot paper over those fundamental differences. It is simply not enough to note the similarities without also recognizing the tremendous and fundamental differences between the two.
Earlier you said, “True understanding comes when you let Islam be explained on it’s own terms.” I think that is true and that it is best to let both Islam and Christianity be explained on their own terms, even though those terms be different. Which is why I will not be using “same God” rhetoric.
Regarding Jesus’ Jewish opponents, Jesus makes it clear that they did not know the Scriptures, nor the power of God, that they did not believe the testimony of Moses, and that if they truly believed in the God of the OT, they would believe in Jesus Himself.
Linda #14,
Yes, but we love God to get God, at least I do.
The God of the Bible is not Allah of the Quran because Allah loves conditionally whereas God of the Bible loves unconditionally.
And the Father shows His love by sending His Son to die for unlovable sinners. Nobody deserves the love of God, and nobody can merit His love either. The Muslims think they can buy the love of Allah by doing good works, but God’s love is not for sale!
Nitika #11,
“Same God” rhetoric is not necessary in order to stop bearing false witness against Muslims. Islam is not a religion with idols. They believe in one God who created all and who is not represented by idols. In that, Christians and Muslims are alike. But that does not mean that they therefore believe in the same God.
But if, by “idols,” you mean merely another different God, then your argument would merely be begging the question. Begging us to accept the premise that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, so that we avoid the “false witness” of accusing them of worshiping a different God.
The problem is that when Christians confess that Jesus is God, it becomes immediately apparent that the the God of the Christian is other than that of the Muslim, because Islam denies that Jesus is God. “Same God” rhetoric, then, does not really solve that problem of “other” God, it merely disguises it. Also, if we say that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, knowing full well that Christians worship Jesus as God while Muslims deny He is God, then that seems to me very like bearing false witness about ourselves to our Muslim friends.
Nikita #13,
Did Mohd have access to the Bible? It’s not clear. Sources are unreliable. He seemed to have had access to Christian monks when he traveled to Syria. He repeated popular Christian and Jewish stories, but he was supposedly somewhat illiterate. He was in alliance with Jews in Medina until there was a falling out, and he accused them of “twisting scriptures with their tongues” – as they apparently read them in Hebrew and explained to Mohd what they met. Basically, he knew enough to think he knew enough, but felt his revelation was as good as what came before.
Jeff Doles,
Your mind is clearly made up, as is mine, so I won’t try to convince you any further.
People who want to reach out to Muslims should know, however, that every successful evangelist to Muslims that I know of does not take the rhetorical road of different gods. Even the harshest critics of Islam like Abu Zachariah do not use that rhetoric. Frankly, it makes no sense to the Arab mind.
I’m with Rick and Dave Moore on this one – Volf picked rather poor passages if his purpose is to say that Jesus’ Jewish opponents are “connected” to God. Especially in 8:39-58, Jesus quite clearly connects them – and their worship (cf. Revelation 3:9) – to someone else.
Scot – I just went to the Amazon link for Volf’s book and looked at some preview pages and when he writes about the six things Christians and Muslims have in common he states them differently than you do, his number 5 and 6 reads:
5. God commands we love God with our whole being.
6. God commands that we love our neighbor as ourselves.
Allah of the Quran does not command we love our neighbor “as ourselves”, and to love Him “with our whole being”. The “as ourselves” bit and “with our whole being” only come from the God of the Bible
It seems to me that all of the arguments given above for why they cannot be the “same” God would work against the Jewish concept of God as well. So perhaps we should ask if Christians and Jews worship the same God, and then answer the question about the Muslim God accordingly. That is, if christology, as Scot suggests, is crucial, then the answer is clearly no for both the Jewish and Muslim God. The same goes for depicting God as “all-loving” (or to use terms from above: conditional/unconditional). Christians are willing to “bend the rules” when it comes to saying they worship the same God as the Jews, why not extend the same grace to Muslims?
How does Jesus’ claim to be the way, the, truth, and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except through Him factor into this argument?
Percival #20,
I am not suggesting that we go with “different God” rhetoric. Rather, what I am suggesting is that there is no real need or benefit, in going with “same God rhetoric.”
Why not, instead, simply go and present the Christian faith as it is, preaching Jesus, who He is and what He has done? Then let the Muslim decide for himself whether this is the same God he believes in.
There is an interesting thing that has been happening in Muslim countries and Muslim communities. I have heard reports of it from a number of quarters and in a number of places: Many Muslims have been having dreams and visions of Jesus, and it is has caused them to seek our Christians to tell them about Jesus, with the result that many of them are being saved. I’ve also heard many other reports of Muslims who have come to faith in Jesus because they received physical healing through prayer and healing ministry in Jesus’ name.
The power of the gospel is not found in “same God” or “different God” rhetoric. It is found in the message of Jesus, and Him crucified and resurrected. Let the Muslim here about Jesus and then decide for himself is this is the same God he worships. Why should I try to decide that for him? We must each decide for ourselves.
James #23,
My answer regarding whether Christians and Jews worship the same God is the same as regarding Christians and Muslims. Why should we even ask the question if they all worship the same God? All three religions will still remain fundamentally different.
Why not instead present the Christian faith, as it is, to Jew, and let him decide for himself is Jesus is the same God he worships? Why should we come in with “same God” rhetoric when it is clear that there are big and fundamental differences between the God of the Christian, of the Jew and of the Muslim. They are not interchangeable. If you take the Muslim God and insert him into Christianity, you no longer have Christianity, because Christians confess that Jesus is God, and Islam denies this.
Jeff #25,
I agree with you. I just wanted to add to the discussion that many who are quick to reject the Muslim God as completely different from the Christian God also uncritically accept that Jews and Christians worship the same God.
I’m more interested in the character responses of God and Allah into different situations. Or, how those that received their messages carried them out. Mohammed and his approach to things are really nothing like the Bible.
Today I think we see that played out. Christians probably don’t do a great job with women’s rights or many other topics but the approaches to many things are far different than many Muslims.
Other topics exist…
“None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself,.” it is talking of Muslims. The brotherhood in Islam does not extend to everyone.
Jeff Doles, it seems that you are deliberately going out of your way to avoid aknowledging that there is benefit in building bridges (common ground) toward peoples that are different than us. I also agree with James that your arguments work for the Jews too.
I will be blunt, you sound like an arrogant american christian and that is exactly the stereo-type that causes us so many problems in that area of the world. Why did they bomb the WTC? Because of our freedoms? No, because we are arrogant bullies who do not listen to others.
The problems in the middle east are not political or economic, though there are big aspects of those issues at play. We will not be able to solve the middle east issues until we acknowledge that the american christianity vs. islam is the crux of the problem. Everything else is simply symptomatic of the issue.
We must reach out and bridge the gaps. That is why it makes sense to do this.
If I were in a Muslim country I would refer to God as Allah but with some reservations and clarifications as the conversation progressed.
As I see the issue wrt same God I would say:
1. To start with we have the God of Isaac and Abraham
2. The Jews have further developed their understanding of the God of I&A
3. Christians to a large extent based our understanding upon the Jewish concepts but with further understandings developed by Jesus and the Apostles.
4. To a fair extent the Islamic concept of God begins with the God of I&A but then they further develop and change the conceptualization.
As a Christian I reject the Muslim understanding just as they reject the Christian and I suspect portions of the Jewish understandings. Same God? I doubt it but there seems to be some commonality in origin of the understanding of God.
Dave W
DRT #30,
Why did “they” bomb the WTC? They?
I suggest that you rephrase your question and avoid the revulsion of those who might agree with your sentiment as well as those who disagree.
DRT – do you really believe what you said?:
“Why did they bomb the WTC? Because of our freedoms? No, because we are arrogant bullies who do not listen to others.”
Why would you say such a thing? Why are you equating the government of the USA with Christianity anyway, the USA is a secular government.
Jeff #26,
My answer regarding whether Christians and Jews worship the same God is the same as regarding Christians and Muslims.
Are you saying that the God of the Jews is not the same God as Christians worship? If that is the case, then which God did Jesus worship? It seems a more sound position is to say, from a christian perspective of course, that we believe that God is best known and worshiped through Jesus. Otherwise you run into thorny issue about the God of the Hebrew Scriptures being distinct from the God of the New Testament.
DRT #29,
The idea that “same God” rhetoric “bridges the gap” does not work, for reasons I gave to Percival above. It does nothing more than what the simple acknowledgement that Christians and Muslims both have a monotheistic faith does. “Same God” rhetoric is simply unnecessary for “building bridges,” and can be damaging to relationships when Muslims realize the “bait and switch” that has taken place. Bridges gaps with a pretense will not do.
It is not arrogant to recognize that Christians worship Jesus and Muslims don’t, and that therefore, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. What is arrogant is when Christians, who worship Jesus, say to the Muslim, “I worship the same God as you.”
It is much better to let Christians and Muslims each say what they believe and decide for themselves, instead of deciding for them that they both believe in the same God. My confession is that Jesus is God; I will let the Muslim determine for himself if he believes in the same God I do. Nothing arrogant about that. It places everything out in the open, where true understanding can take place and real bridges can be built. So I reject your blunt assessment.
Also, I think it is very short-sighted to suppose that the problems of the Middle East stem from the relationship between American Christianity and Islam. American Christianity has not been around nearly long enough to account for problems in the Middle East that have been over a millennium in the making.
Jeff #35,
You said:
What is arrogant is when Christians, who worship Jesus, say to the Muslim, “I worship the same God as you.”
I think you are going too far with statements like this. How is this arrogant? You are charging the great majority of Arab Christians with arrogance. In Indonesia, Christians are persecuted for using Allah and claiming there is only one God. And you sit there safely in America and throw out charges like that? Come on.
Jeff- I agree we as Christians should not be using the “Bait and switch” ploy on Muslims with this we worship the same God thing, and neither should Muslims be using it on Christians, it is very deceitful.
Percival#32, point taken. They=radical factions in islam.
Linda#33, I stand by my point with the clarification of “they”.
And more, the behavior of the radical parts of Islam is a symptom of the relationship. If 90% of the Muslims loved the US then the radical fringe would have a much more difficult time being a factor. But the reality is that we need to make a lot of progress to get on the good side of the Muslim community so they will exert pressure on their radical groups.
Obama did that in his speach to the Middle East after his election. That went very far in assuaging the anti-american sentiment. We need more bridges built like that.
I struggle to see how anyone can suggest that Christians should not use the term “Allah” for God. I live in the Arab world, and our Arabic Bible uses the word “Allah”, who both Muslims and Christians agree is the One God of Abraham and Moses, creator of all. The term “God” is much more doubtful having obvious Germanic pagan roots.
I agree with Percival (#20)in that I’m not sure this discussion even makes sense in the Arab world. I have never heard anyone question whether we are talking about the same God, but neither is there any confusion about the fact that we have major differences over the person of Jesus. When I question believers who have come out of Islam, they say that before they knew Jesus they knew God incompletely, “as if through a fog” but they do not feel they have been introduced to a new God.
Nitika #13,
Can anyone speak to whether or not Mohammed had access to the Bible.
There is pretty solid evidence that early Qur’anic theology was influenced to one degree or another by both Jewish writings and various forms of canonical and non-canonical Christian writings. There are numerous allusions to the both the Gospels and the Torah throughout the Qur’an. There are also clear allusions to both the infancy gospel of Thomas (Q 3:49, 5:110) and to the “Companions in the Cave” (Q 18:9-26). As Percival has noted, much of this influence is related to Syriac forms of Christianity.
Just what this influence was theologically, philologically and historically is currently one of the hottest topics in Western Islamic studies.
Jeff#35, the difference between aknowledging the difference and aknowledging the sameness is that both of our holy books talk about killing the infidels. We are subject to the accusation that we are supposed to kill them if we don’t include them. And vice versa.
and I agree with Percival. Now seriously Jeff, if I am to say that you do not worship the same god as me and my holy book says infidels are inferior to me and they should be killed, then that is infinitely more arrogant than putting us in the same family.
DRT – Obama speech has emboldened Muslims to commit more violence against us and their own rulers. The acts of terrorism has gone up since his speech, have you not noticed that?
Dan #36,
I am saying it is an irrelevant question. It is not really one that the Christian, the Jew and the Muslim are asking of each other. And as I pointed out earlier, it offers no advantage or benefit, because as each religion discusses what it believes, it soon becomes apparent that there are fundamental differences between Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Yes, they are all three monotheistic in theology and believe that there is one true God who created the world. But that is not enough reason to say that they all worship the same God. It is not even enough that they all have reference to the Hebrew Scriptures.
It is also an irrelevant question because Christians confess that Jesus is God, something both Jews and Muslims have denied. If I say, “The God I worship is Jesus,” and then ask the Jew or the Muslim, “Do you worship the same God? Do you worship Jesus?” what do you suppose they will answer? I do not think they will agree that Jesus is the same God they worship.
The foundation of the Christian is not a statement that Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God. The foundation is “Jesus is Lord.”
So let the Christian confess that Jesus is God, and let the Jew and the Muslim decide for themselves whether they believe in the same God as the Christian.
Percival #36,
It is arrogant for the Christian, who worships Jesus as God, to say to the Muslim that we both worship the same God, because imposes on the Muslim a belief that they do not actually hold. It does a disservice to the Muslim. Muslims do not worship Jesus as God but, in fact, deny that Jesus is God. If I say to the Muslim, “We both worship the same God,” all the while knowing that I worship Jesus and the Muslim does not, I am not being accurate to the truth. What is more, the Muslim has the room and every right to say to me, “No, we don’t — you worship Jesus, but I worship Allah.”
See, the identity of Jesus is not something incidental to Christianity, something that can simply be left out of the “same God” rhetoric. No, who Jesus is is foundational to the Christian faith. As a Christian, I am bound to look at the question Christologically. I am not at liberty to deny that Jesus is God; the Muslim does deny Jesus is God. Knowing that fundamental difference, I think it is arrogant and insulting to the Muslim to then suggest that we actually worship the same God. I will let the Muslim speak for himself as to whether he worships the same God — Jesus — as I do.
DRT #41,
Show me where the Bible says to “kill the infidels.” There are few groups of people that God instructed Israel to kill. I don’t think God ever instructed Israel to go out and kill those who didn’t convert to the religion of Israel. And I know that the NT never commands Christians to go “kill the infidels.”
Last try.
Jeff, people do not need to be asking the question for us to take the initiative to bridge a gap. I happen to be a proactive person, trying to avoid being reactive. Making the statement of sameness is not an answer to a question (though it could be), it is a olive branch.
Jeff#45, I was being mildly hyperbolic though it is even worse to have the bible say “go to the middle east area, kill the inhabitants and take their land”. Sounds even worse than killing infidels if I were a Muslim.
Deut 13:
Now how would our Muslim friends interpret that if we are saying it is not the same God?
DRT #46
I’m a proactive person, too. The statement of “same God,” is unnecessary and can be harmful to transparent relationship when it becomes apparent that Christians worship Jesus as God while Muslims do not. That simply does not add up to “same God.”
Example:
Christian says, “The God I worship is Jesus.”
Muslim says, “I do not worship Jesus. He is not God.”
That being the case, it is obvious that Christian and Muslim do not worship the same God.
Proactively, the commission of the Christian is to proclaim, not “We all worship the same God,” but rather, “Jesus is Lord.” Then let the Muslim decide for himself whether he worships the same God as I do. It would be arrogant for me to decide that or answer that for him, and I have to much respect for Muslims to do that.
DRT #47,
Yes, there were a few instances where Israel was instructed to possess the land and kill the inhabitants, but I do not think it was because they were infidels.
Jeff#49:
Correct me if I am wrong, but more precisely we worship Jesus who we feel was God incarnate, right? There is a difference.
The plain meaning of “same God” is God the Father. Who raised Jesus from the dead. God. Who was incarnate in Jesus. God. Who has given Jesus authority. God. Which of the three persons do we mean when we say “same God?”, God.
DRT #48,
In Deuteronomy 13, God is not sending Israel out to other nations to kill anybody. That was strictly among the people of Israel, about those who were turning their countrymen away from God. But I can’t think of a time when God ever sent Israel out to the nations to kill all those who would not convert.
More importantly, in regard to Christians and Muslims, the commission to the Church is to evangelize and disciple the nations — there was never any command in the NT to kill any infidel anywhere.
DRT # 49,
The plain meaning of “same God” is “same God.” You may want to make it about God the Father only, but Christians affirm the Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God. I have not heard that Muslims think of God as “Father.”
Christians worship Jesus as God. It is not merely something we “feel.” It is something that Christians have affirmed from the beginning. As a Christian, I worship Jesus as God, and the Holy Spirit as God, as well as the Father as God.
But your suggestions bring up another problem about “same God” rhetoric. In order to uphold it, we have to lay low on fundamental aspects about who the God we worship is. We have to play down or sideline God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
See, this is why “same God” rhetoric is incoherent to me. As a Christian, I affirm that Jesus is God. I am not going to stop doing that, not even for the sake of “building bridges.” Because if I let go of that confession, then I am giving up the Christian faith. So, I will continue to say that Jesus is God. But in doing so, I aware that Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God. Because I worship Jesus and Muslims do not, it is nonsensical to me to say that we worship the “same God.”
Jumping in late here…
There seems to be a few things missing in Volf’s equation, at least as represented here…
The God of Christianity is Triune. One, but still triune. Father, Son, and Spirit. That is more central to God than the observable characteristics of God. We don’t worship God solely for his goodness, etc. We worship God because he is uniquely worthy of our worship, and at the core of that uniqueness is the trinity. I am just not sold yet…
David #50,
I will ask you the same question. For Christians, based on the incarnation, we believe that God is Triune. Israel has never thought of God as Triune. Does that mean that Israel and therefore Jews, worship a different God? If they do, does that mean that the God of the Hebrew Scriptures is distinct from the God of the New Testament? Does this mean that Egypt’s Copts worship a different God?
See, if we make even the Trinity the defining understanding of whether we worship the same God, we end up with all sorts of problems and this is what Volf is saying. Therefore, we must start elsewhere. Yes, we believe that Jesus is God and we also believe the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. But there are very few people who can explain the perichoretic dance in a way that satisfies traditional orthodoxy and yet we use it as an exclusionary rubric.
Dan #54,
One need not be able to explain the intricacies of the perichoresis in order to affirm, as the Church has traditionally done, that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Spirit is God. Of course, I do not expect our Muslim friends to affirm all that, but then neither do I expect that we must say that we all worship the “same God” in order to get along with each other and “build bridges.”
Inasmuch as Christians do affirm that Jesus is God, even if they lack a robust understanding of perichoresis, it remain incoherent to insist that Muslims, who deny that Jesus is God, do worship the same God.
Hmmm. If the apostle Paul could tell the philosophers on Areopagus that their “Unknown God” was the same God he worshipped, it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to say that Muslims who worship “Allah” (Arabic for “God”) are worshipping the same “Jehovah” that Christians worship.
Jeff Doles#55, Would you address Dan Arnold’s question in 54 about the jewish god?
DRT #55, Dan #54,
No, the God of the Hebrew Scriptures is the same as the God of the New Testament. He did not reveal Himself in the ultimate way He did in Jesus the Messiah (Hebrews 1:3), but He was the exact same God — Father, Son and Spirit — perichoresis and all. Jesus made clear that if the Jews had believed, they would have believe in Jesus, for Moses wrote about Him. In John 6, Jesus demonstrates that those who believed in and belonged to the God of the Hebrew Scriptures would come to Him, because He is the one those Scripture spoke about.
Since Jesus has come, the confession of the Church is that He is God. That is my confession as a Christian.
Do Christians and Jews worship the same God? It is an irrelevant question, as irrelevant as the question of whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Our responsibility is to proclaim that Jesus is the Lord God who was crucified and raised from the dead and who will judge the world in righteousness.
Jeff L. #56,
Paul did not say at Mars Hill, “Hey, we all worship the same God.” There were very many gods represented there, including one that they confessed that they did not know. They had no theology about this unknown God — that is why he was unknown.
So, Paul did not come to tell them about a God that they knew and worshiped, he came to tell them about a God they knew nothing about. The upshot is that it is quite a stretch after all to try to somehow equate this with the God of Islam, about whom there is a very developed theology, about a god that is fundamentally different from the God Christians worship, a theology which, in fact, denies the God Christians worship by denying that Jesus is God.
Jeff Doles, thanks for going the extra mile with us. I don’t agree, but this was a good conversation. I am going to try and understand your perspective since I cannot currently.
Jeff Doles,
this is obviously a very, very important issue to you. I’m not clear on why since it appears to me to be a molehill rather than a mountain. But as DRT suggests, I will try to understand your perspective.
Thanks for the exchange.
Jeff L #61,
It is not a mountain to me. A respected theologian has just written a new book to promote “same God” rhetoric, another has made that book the subject of a series of blogs to discuss it. There seems to be a big push to support the idea and many here have been promoting it. One even suggested that it is just arrogant American Christianity to oppose the rhetoric. I have simply been discussing it, explaining why I don’t agree with it.
I don’t think it is a very hard perspective to understand. To me, it is basic Christianity to affirm that Jesus the Messiah is God. That being so, it is incoherent to then say that Christians and Muslims both worship the same God when Muslims clearly deny that Jesus is God. I am approaching the issue from a Christological point of view. That’s it in a nutshell. If you really wish to understand my perspective, perhaps rereading my comments in this thread with that in mind will help.
OK, I can’t resist.
Jeff Doles,
Do the Jews and Muslims worship the same god.
DRT #63,
It is an irrelevant question. It is not necessary for Jews and Muslims to worship the same God in order to get along. Nor would it bridge the fundamental differences between the two religions. The pursuit of this “same God” rhetoric does not lead anywhere that cannot be reached by other means.
Relevant: it was a post on Justin Taylor’s blog, but citing a passage from Timothy Tennent’s Theology in the Context of World Christianity.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2008/03/12/is-father-of-jesus-god-of-muhammad/
“… From this perspective, I must conclude that the Father of Jesus is not the God of Muhammad.”