If My Gay Loved Ones Go To Hell, I’m Going With Them

In case anyone’s interested, the impetus behind my writing my last post, “Christians: When It Comes to Homosexuality, Man Up is this simple truth: If my gay friends, whom my life experience tells me can no sooner stop being gay than I can stop being straight, have to go to hell after they die, then I’m going with them. Too many gays and lesbians have been too good to me in this life for me to leave them behind in the next. I won’t do it. That’s really all I was saying.

I am sure Christ will let me make that choice. I’m not sure of a lot of things, but I’m positive Christ understands sacrificing oneself for the love of others.

About John Shore

John Shore (who, fwiw, is straight) is the author of UNFAIR: Christians and the LGBT Question, and three other great books. He is founder of Unfundamentalist Christians (on Facebook here), and executive editor of the Unfundamentalist Christians group blog.  (In total John's two blogs receive some 250,000 views per month.) John is also co-founder of The NALT Christians Project, which was written about by TIME,  The Washington Post, and others. His website is JohnShore.com. You're invited to like John's Facebook page. Don't forget to sign up for his mucho-awesome newsletter.

  • http://www.wonderfulordinarylife.wordpress.com anita

    John. I don't even know how to express what I want to say to you since primarily what I want to do is hug you, put my hand on your arm and tell you how grateful I am to have you as a brother and to share in this incredible adventure called the Christian life with you. Maybe I'll add more later but for now that's all other than to say I hope one day to share conversation with you over a three-dimensional cup of coffee. I'll let you pay.

  • Stephanie

    Weeping.

    Very well said John.

    Beautiful.

    Thank you.

  • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com ric booth

    Love God, Love neighbor, Love one another… As I struggle to find out what that looks like in this world, your heart and your gift shows me a wonderful example.

  • Stephanie

    Ok, I'm so I'm not done.

    John, I have just recently began visiting your blog and you my friend are like a breath of fresh air! I appreciate the simple fact that you don't feel like you have to know all the answers, you are willing to challenge some things and you're loyal to ALL of God's people.

    It's like seeing the heart of Jesus.

    Ok, I think I may be done……..for now.

    Thanks again.

  • http://stefscrazylife.wordpress.com/ Stef

    John, this is the best post on this subject i've read anywhere!

    It's as simple as that, isn't it?

    Discussing this subject is always a risk, because everyone seems to have an opinion on it for good or ill. It's a big shouting match at times, because everyone is convinced that they're view is right. And everyone is entitled to their view. It may not be right, and it may not be wrong. People have to be open to other points of view other than their own. Gosh, they might just learn something!

    Thank you for being who you are. :) God Bless.

  • http://kathleenpopa.wordpress.com Kathleen Popa

    God bless you, John. You give me such hope that the church will find the right way through this issue. Like you, I'm not sure what that way is, but I know it will be paved with love. For my part, I'm walking with you.

  • pontiacdan45

    Wil Rogers said that he didn't know where dogs went when they died, but where ever they went, he wanted to go there too.

    I think I'd like to join the group who love without limits or restrictions, where ever they go when they die. Those that know how to wipe the slate clean every morning and forget every wrong. Those who lead by the example of love and grace, the vary things I struggle with all the time. Those who accept without judgment and comfort rather than condem.

    Will Rogers was facinated by the unconditional love of dogs, pointing out that most dogs wag their tail instead of their tongues, the chief difference between dogs and politicians. I'm not sure there is all that much unconditional love in the world, but where I pray I'm going, it will exist in abundance. For all of us.

  • pariahdog

    Ok. If you weren't before, now you are definitely my hero.

    How better to express what Jesus was trying to teach us?

  • metalphil

    Hmm, I like what you had to say, but I also agree with wordsseldomsaid. Not that y'alls views are diametrically opposed, because they aren't, but that I do believe the only reason one goes to Hell is unbelief in the Gospel message of Jesus Christ. Anyway. Good thoughts. =)

  • http://mrhackman.blogspot.com Andrew

    Well said! I think Paul made similar pronouncements concerning his brothers at the beginning of Romans 9.

  • http://stupidcarrot.wordpress.com jos

    I have always felt/know/want to go to hell (if it exists). Seems like all the cool ppl are going to be down there, at least the company will be tolerable. but then again, maybe i say so with such conviction because I don't even believe in this heaven/hell concept (at least, not in the way ppl centuries ago believe in)

  • Cavalcade

    Not at all! I won't go to hell because I'm gay. I'll go to hell because I have not accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

    – Never mind that I believe in Him; never mind that I have been baptized as an adult and that I take communion regularly; never mind that I have prayed the sinner's prayer; never mind that I have always been active in service to the churches I attend; never mind that the fruits of the Spirit are present in my life; never mind that my nonbelieving friends ask me questions about faith because it is so evident in my life –

    All that doesn't /really/ indicate that I have accepted Jesus, because the test of a Real True Christian is whether they hold to the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. I don't; ergo, I must be deliberately exchanging the truth of God for a lie, which means I don't know the true Jesus, which means I'll be one of those Jesus tells "I never knew you."

    And *that*, John, is why I'll go to hell.

    • Bill

      There’s a Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy? Who knew? Guess I’ll see y’all in hell.

  • http://community.livejournal.com/rainbow_ark/profile Jarrell

    The Holy Spirit is teaching you on this subject, and you are very courageous for writing what you did. I read yours yesterday, came back this morning, lo and behold, a step farther. You are not off the track. *hug*

  • wordsseldomsaid

    people don’t go to hell for being gay, john…people go to hell for one reason and one reason only…rejection of JESUS..

  • http://www.youtube.com/morsec0de Morse

    Absolutely beautiful, John. Way to stand up for what you think is right. And I know exactly how you feel. If it turns out one day that there is, after all, a god, and he sends people to hell for things they cannot help, then I too will accompany my gay and non-religious brother and sisters down into hell.

  • arlywn

    Dont worry John, it'll be fun in hell. I'll be there, morse might be there, your homosexual friends will be there. It'll be a fun party cause we'll know lots of people.

    Oh, and I have figured out something. You dont have to be a christian to be nice. its actually a pretty cool story, in case people want to hear it….

  • http://www.youtube.com/morsec0de Morse

    Oh, I'll definitely be there. I'll spend a while finding Shakespeare and having a chat, but after that I'll have plenty of free time.

  • Rob

    People do not go to hell for being gay; homosexuality is a sin, whether you believe people are born with homosexual tendencies or, like me, you see it as a perversion of the natural and good order of Creation. Maybe everyone here does not agree with that, but, even though I see homosexuality as sinful (as are many other human behaviors, whether they are purely volitional or genetic), homosexuality does not send you to hell any more effectively than any other sin; a rejection of Christ and his offer of eternal life is what sends one to hell.

    I think we all understand that here, rendering your argument a bit melodramatic. Thus, my concern is that you are either choosing your friends above God or are misunderstanding the nature of the first commandment. We in part love God through loving our friends/neighbors. The two are not in opposition. You speak as if loving your gay friends is somehow inimical to loving God.

  • Edie

    God does not send someone to hell because they are "gay". We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. No one in this world is without sin. No one will go to hell because they love someone, but they will go to hell if they choose sinful acts above Jesus Christ. I don't know what it's like to be homosexual, but I do know what it's like to have a stronghold on your life that can cause you to sin. This stronghold keeps me on my knees in prayer and reading God's word. This is how I overcome temptations and sin. Sometimes it's not easy, but God has shown me that He loves me just like I am and He holds me in the palm of His hand. He wants to share his love and salvation with everyone. No matter who you are or what you have done.

  • http://anziulewicz.livejournal.com Chuck Anziulewicz

    That's a very powerful statement, John. I really don't know what to say in reply … other than that I'm really glad I've gotten to know you, if only online.

  • http://ingridspeak.wordpress.com Ingrid

    There is a reason I read you daily. Your honesty. Thank you for being you.

  • Laura

    John, I wanted to thank you for being so honest. Your posts have inspired many conversations between my husband and I, and from that have come many changes to both our thoughts and our lives. Thanks.

  • David

    John, if you have sat beside those of us who are gay and Christian and heard a sermon telling us we're "an abomination," then you've already gone (at least part way) to hell with us.

    Frankly, I left the Evangelical movement several years ago mainly because I disagree with it's formula for "salvation." Just accept Jesus and receive God's grace that covers you sins, and you're now a citizen of the kingdom. Jesus "mentioned" that there would be many coming to him at the judgement, saying, "I'm one of yours!," and that his response will be, "Move along. I never knew you." He said alot about recognizing his own by the character of their spirit — and he didn't mean the spirit of the pharisee, which judges by outward shows of piety rather than inward attitudes and characteristics.

    Which is why Jesus told, for instance, the parable of the "Good Samaritan." In the eyes of the "righteous" Jews, there was no such thing! Jesus followed-up such parabolic messages with some pretty direct statements: "My kingdom is a spiritual kingdom; my kingdom is within you."

    Even Paul — who never really seems to have gotten the pharisee spirit totally laundered out of him — when pushed to the wall on a big issue of the day ( eating meat offered to idols ) was forced to place the readers of his epistle on the right spiritual ground: not on the ground of rules and rulekeeping, but the ground of each man's or woman's conscience. "If, for you, it seems like sin, don't do it. On the other hand, if you can do it and your conscience is clear, it isn't sin."

    For me, loving another man a) puts me squarely onto the spiritual ground of grace [with the "rejected" Samaritan in Jesus' story] and it b) causes me to walk before God every day in a spiritual mature position — which is, accepting full responsibility for each choice I make about how I live and how I relate and how I treat each person I meet.

    To me. Evangelicalism promotes, not only shallow spirituality ( "cleaning the outside of the cup") it promotes spiritual immaturity. "Just read the rules and obey them."

    We should be training people to make adult, responsible choices — true to their own conscience — and allowing them to walk humbly before their God, especially when their choices cause them to be non-conformist vis-a-vis the Christian masses.

  • http://mothergoose.wordpress.com/ Teresa

    John, your blog is a fine read, and your exploration of this topic is really moving. Thanks for questioning and searching and thinking and communicating, instead of just throwing your gay friends under the bus (for all eternity). I've long said if the Christian god is so hostile, insecure and hateful as to condemn anyone who steps outside a narrow (and yet constantly changing) line, then it is not the religion for me. When my 30-year-old nephew announced to me that he and his wife (newly converted) still loved me, but could not approve of my choices (that is to say, my life), I was floored. Eventually I told them I felt the same way about them. I was massively disappointed that my previously open-minded and open-hearted boy was shrinking in love and compassion as a result of his relationship with a so-called loving god. And then when a patient who'd recently converted called me weeping to say that her beloved 15-year-old greyhound would not be going to heaven with her, I thought oh for crying out loud — what crazy kind of god would deny us the love of our partners, our pets and anyone else who touched our hearts in the great beyond? It's never made sense to me.

    I am not thoughtless or lacking in reflection, and I've given this line of belief much thought. I've made the decision that I myself will never subscribe to a religion that relies so heavily on condemnation and fear, and I am willing to stand in front of whatever judge there is with my belief that love and compassion are more powerful than hate or a morbid fear of damnation. However, I see clearly from your writing that your conversion to this religion has brought fresh meaning into your life, and I respect that. Thanks again for writing so honestly.

  • Pingback: The Story So Far… » Blog Archive » Define Hell And Give Three Examples

  • http://www.scg-wakeupcall.blogspot.com Susan

    Amen! And a beautiful statement of your understanding of Christ and the love of God. Thanks!

  • metalphil

    You hit the nail on the head David. They way current evangelical Christianity looks is just cleaning the outside of the cup. And that's not personally what I'm speaking of in regards to homosexuality, heaven, and hell and the like. I speak of Yahweh and insight that comes through the Holy Spirit and the Bible. Anyway. Just saying that yes, current day Christianity looks like and is a mess. Haha. It sucks though. Sorry, this was more of a rant than a definite thought.

  • http://www.youtube.com/morsec0de Morse

    I shared this blog post with a friend of mine, and, well. I'll just quote him directly:

    "Tell him not to worry! If enough of us go to Hell, we'll totally redecorate it!"

    • Bill

      Yeah, fireplaces everywhere. And I'll get to meet The Village People. Talk about after party!!!

  • Samuel

    For many christians, it's just a topic or an issue. We have to realize that this is real people with real feelings. I don't support homosexuality but we must remember that. I read this blog last year and it just opened my eyes:

    http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Okay, I used to be the editor of this fat glossy magazine all about home decorating and gardening and all that: a “shelter” mag, as they’re called. At the time my wife and I were living in a 6-unit apt. building in which we were the only straight couple. Everyone in the building were really good friends. The ongoing joke about the place, though, was how horrendously decorated everyone thought OUR apartment was. So then I got this job as the editor of a decorating MAGAZINE, right?

    Man, you should have seen those guys’ faces when I told them about my new job. They were, like, “Oh, Lord. God really DOES hate us.”

    One of those guys was over at our place when we told him, and before he could stop himself, he blurted out, “YOU? YOU’RE THE EDITOR OF A DECORATING MAGAZINE?!” With THOSE curtains?!!” He looked like he was going to feint. I busted up. And then I threw him out of my place, of course.

  • wendy

    John,

    First time to your blog and catching up on your last few posts thanks to Timothy over at Box Turtle Bulliten.

    I’m grateful there are authentically loving and relational conversations popping up all over – hopefully busting some unhelpful barriers – in this sad and stupid culture war.

    Many of the gay Christians I know are passionately in love with Jesus. I can’t always say the same for the anti-gay Christians I come across.

  • tavdy

    "people go to hell for one reason and one reason only…rejection of JESUS." – wordsseldomsaid

    "a rejection of Christ and his offer of eternal life is what sends one to hell." – Rob

    This is something I agree with entirely – but there's a sad irony at work here. Many (if not most) gay people reject Christ because of what they see as the rejection, intolerance, condemnation and even (in same cases) hatred directed at them by Christians. Many straight people reject Christ because of the way their gay friends feel.

    In effect, the very people who are commanded by Christ to convert the unconverted are driving thousands, if not millions, to reject his message. Under those circumstances, I agree with John Shore's point of view. If my actions caused a friend – or indeed anyone – to end up in Hell, I wouldn't want to be in Heaven. I'd want to be with them.

    • Bill

      I recall something in the Bible…..an admonition to not cause another to stumble. I don’t know the verse but it sure seems appropriate to many who profess their christianity.

  • tavdy

    I've just been reminded of a favourite quote from C. Jay Cox:

    "Your church doesn't like alcohol or homosexuals. Hmm… Well, I definitely won't be joining. Can't imagine heaven without both."

  • Pingback: The Company You Keep « SHARP IRON

  • Esmeralda Orozco

    wow! well said and yes there’s no right or wrong answer when talking about the bible because everyone has a different perspective for it,but well said u’ll be in my prayers…..

  • Second Michele

    Jesus was willing to go to hell for His gay loved ones.

    No matter how much sympathy, admiration, or love you have for gay friends, none of us love them more than Jesus did!

    God so loved the gays that He sent His one and Only Son to die to save them – and all of us – and He KNEW (even if Paul and Moses didn't) the horrible struggle that many gays go through.

    And yet Jesus, being God, personally gave the law to Moses, and Jesus in a vision called Paul to an apostle.

    People will read these hard texts and say, My God is a God of love, He didn't write those texts – men did. Or they say He is an evil god and they do not believe in Him.

    But just the opposite is true. God would have to be a heartless monster to put those texts in the Bible and not mean EXACTLY what He said.

    How callous, how wicked and deceitful of God to even permit Paul and Moses to "mistakenly" put injunctions in the Bible that condemned something God actually sanctions?

    Would God willing afflict people with commands that contradict their true and God-given nature – so that, at the very least, thousands of other Christians would get real confused and start to think – of all things- that God condemns same-sex unions, when in fact He blesses them?

    Is God trying to split the church by allowing a command He never wrote to appear repeatedly in the Bible – in the strongest possible language?

    We must either go with the atheist or maltheist explantion, that this Biblical God is evil and/or non-Existent – or we must admit that He was right to condemn ALL our sins. Even the ones we feel are entirely a part of our nature – no more changable than our height or our skin color. (Even straight people have those feelings about aspects of our nature the Bible condemns. Anyone here stopped sinning yet? Anyone here "perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect?")

    Jesus did not die for a mistake Moses wrote, or that Paul failed to correct. He died for our SINS – our real, actual sins, which really do cause harm – both to our relationship with God, and to our fellow man.

    • Bill

      Time and again it is asked HOW homosexual sex harms others and repeatedly the answer from anti-gay religious is that it does…….without ever saying how. They never answer the question, just repeatedly pontificate.

      The media is complicit in this. Politicians and religious conservatives rant on about how gay marriage is harmful to marriage in general but they never say how, and the media never insists they explain. Why is that?

  • Cavalcade

    Second Michele –

    "How callous, how wicked and deceitful of God to even permit Paul and Moses to “mistakenly” put injunctions in the Bible that condemned something God actually sanctions?"

    Hardly callous, wicked and decietful — more like, the way God usually operates. God inspires: he does not mind-control people into writing exactly the ancient Hebrew/Koinoneia Greek he has in mind.

    God lets His people do things a lot more horrible than just *write* wrong or time-bound ideas. God allows Christians to murder, conquer, rape and enslave. Why would he allow those things but *not* allow Paul to write Paul's own thoughts?

    Think of the personal details in Paul's letters: "Do your best to get here before winter. Eubulus greets you, and so do Pudens, Linus, Claudia and all the brothers." Is that eternal timeless scripture containing truth for all the ages, the Word of God? Or is that Paul earnestly writing in his own voice, under his own power, to his friend Timothy?

    What about 1 Corinthians 7:12? "To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord)"? Paul says he is NOT speaking for the Lord there. Is that true?

    The obvious sense of the Bible to me is that these are stories, histories, poems and letters written by people who had intimate experiences with God and with Jesus. God didn't mind-control the authors any more than he mind-controls you and me writing these comments.

    I'm influenced by C.S. Lewis's thoughts on the matter as well (http://www.crivoice.org/lewisbib.html) : "That the over-all operation of Scripture is to convey God’s Word to the reader (he also needs his inspiration) who reads it in the right spirit, I fully believe. That it also gives true answers to all the questions (often religiously irrelevant) which he might ask, I don’t. The very kind of truth we are often demanding was, in my opinion, not even envisaged by the ancients."

  • tavdy

    “Is God trying to split the church by allowing a command He never wrote to appear repeatedly in the Bible – in the strongest possible language?” – Second Michele

    What if it is a test to “sort the wheat from the chaff”?

    The test could simply be whether or not a person chooses the right side of the debate. In this case whether or not gay sex is sin is critically important, which to me sounds Pharisaic and is a denial of the ability of Christ’s sacrifice to forgive all sins.

    Alternatively (and I think this far more likely) it could be whether or not a person tries to show love to those on the other side of the debate or, if they struggle doing so, whether or not they have the humility to admit the fact. In this case whether or not gay sex is sin is of secondary importance to what Christ described as the greatest commandments in the law – to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love your neighbour as yourself. Since you cannot show love to God while breaking the second law, obedience to the first law requires us to show love to one-another despite any theological disagreements we may have. Irrespective of your opinion on gay sex, this second option would rely entirely on the ability of Christ’s sacrifice to cover all sins. There are two possibilities for why this is the case.

    Firstly, sin could be subjective – in other words it is the decision to rebel against God’s laws that is the sin, while the act itself is symbolic of that rebellion. In this case if you believed it sinful to leave your house after midday and you did so then you would be sinning even if no-one else agreed with your view. In this case neither side is wrong since it’s all down to personal opinion.

    Alternatively sin could be objective – a list of things we can and cannot do. In this case one or other side would be at fault and therefore in sin themselves, and so would rely on Christ’s forgiveness. If gay sex is sinful then those say it isn’t are sinning by misleading others and/or by committing the sin themselves. If gay sex is not sinful then those who say it is are sinning by discouraging or preventing non-Christians who disagree with them from forming a relationship with Christ and obtaining his forgiveness.

    Personally I don’t know whether I think sin is subjective or objective, and I’m not sure it’s really important since both rely on Christ’s sacrifice and forgiveness. That to me is the important thing.

  • http://www.MartyDaniels.com Marty Daniels

    John:

    I'm only getting round to catching up with your posts for the last month…I been a busy boy…THANKFULLY!

    I agree entirely with your post and say this as one who was a wild hearted liberal prior to becoming a near Nazi right winger after I accepted the church…Now, I'm a person who loves and knows Jesus as my Savior and that lets me off the hook of having to pretend I am Jesus by judging everyone else and damning them to hell.

    Nice!

  • http://www.coeurdeberger.wordpress.com J. Gary Ellison

    John, the gospel has more hope than what you offered in this post. Writing to the Corinthians, Paul does not make a great distinction between homosexual practice and stealing when he says, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, ESV). Yet, he does not leave it there. He gives us hope: "And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11, ESV). Paul uses the past tense. It's over. It's in the past. The good news is that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17, ESV). That doesn't mean that there is no more temptation or no more struggle, but God's mighty power is at work in us to change us into Christ's image (Ephesian 3:20; Romans 8:29) so that we no longer live in sin (Romans 6:1-23; 8:1-13; 1 John 3:1-10). The gospel is the power of God (Romans 1:16). It does change us or it is worthless.

    Sentiment must not dilute the gospel. In our compassion, let us give a compassionate message of hope. God does change our sinful nature; His Holy Spirit does make us holy.

    John, neither you nor I, could go to hell for anyone else; only the Sinless One could take our place, and He did. And on the cross His blood was spilt that we might be cleansed from all sin (1 John 1:7) and His body was broken that the body of sin in us might be destroyed so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin (Romans 6:6).

    We have to offer our homosexual friends more than sentiment. We must offer them the hope of changed lives (2 Peter 1:3-4), the hope of changed affections (Colossians 3:1-10), the hope of a pure heart (Matthew 5:8), and the hope of heaven (Philippians 3:20).

    • Bill

      **********nor men who practice homosexuality..*********

      Therein lies part of the problem in these discussions. Interpretations. The word “homosexuality” was not in King James original version, for example. It could not have been because the word itself was not in existence until Freud first coined it in the 19th century. I was raised on the KJ but haven’t read one for years so it may be there now. I do have The Living Bible and it is in there. It’s a re-interpretation from the earlier “effeminate” which is itself and interpretation from Greek, which was an interpretation from Hebrew which is an interpretation from Aramaic which…..well, you get my point.

      The original ancient languages of the Biblical writings had no word for homosexuality because the cultures surrounding early Christianity made no such distinction. People had sex with men or women. That was it and, apparently for the most part, it was a matter of little concern and it didn’t become an issue until the 2nd or 3rd centuries as what we now know as the Roman Catholic Church began to take shape and the religious leaders got hung up on sex and gender issues, often for political reasons.

      The word “homosexual” is a glaring example of people with personal agenda changing “jots and tittles” to suit their own theological notions.

      And just an ironic note: King James was a flaming queen, so much so that his advisers had to repeatedly admonish him to tone it down lest he upset the people he ruled.

  • Nathan

    J. Ellison,

    It is fantastic that you can offer such words of encouragement – particularly as you have not had to struggle with such a painful and difficult situation yourself. Your comments reek of more than a little sanctimoniousness.

    From the age of six I wished to be a pastor (as my parents were). I started reading the bible studiously from the age of eight. I left a successful career to take up bible school at the age of 24. Yet it would seem god had other plans.

    Personally, I struggled for 15 years with this very issue – praying that god would either remove this aspect of myself or remove my life. So many nights I cried myself to sleep (or rather, fell asleep through exhaustion from my emotional distress). Don't tell me it was because I "lacked sufficient faith" – at least until you demonstrate better yourself.

    At the end I came to the conclusion that God could not be a god of love if He set someone up for such a painful situation. (To imagine that someone would choose to be gay is such a stupid notion!) If, after 15 years of intense struggle, God had not changed me then He was never going to change me. If God was waiting for some "never-never" time – then he is a complete bastard.

    My personal experience with God (both before coming out and after) is nothing like that. My personal experience with Christians (both before coming out and after – and I include myself in this) is that we seek certainty and want confidence in our "rightness". It is much more difficult to accept ambiguity and uncertainty. More difficulty but involving more faith.

  • tavdy

    "particularly as you have not had to struggle with such a painful and difficult situation yourself." – Nathan

    This is something which I think will always be a gulf between gays and certain Christians, and so I doubt there will ever be a day in this life when gay people don't face opposition from the Church. Perhaps that is the test for gay people – to have faith in spite of the hurt and alienation.

    We're failing abysmally.

  • S

    I’m saying nothing more than this: If any of my dear gay friends get condemned to hell for no other reason than that they’re gay, then I will choose to go to hell with them.

    John, are you saying that, through your Bible readings, you do not think homosexuality is listed a sin (in the Bible), or are you saying that you disagree with a (religion) that would condemn homosexuality?

    The Bible states sinful behaviors, but it also states the path to eternal life (belief in Jesus, as the Son of God). Do you think that all homosexuals would going to hell if it IS a sin? We're all sinners. Period. God loves us anyway. :)

  • Erik

    Hello John

    I can understand your sentiment but chosing hell over heaven because certain people may end up there is …….., I won't say it.

    Homosexuality is a sin but no one goes to hell because they sin. If we don't repent of our sins then we are damned. To repent simply means to change ones mind about their conduct. Thus the homosexual can and should repent, ie, change their minds and see it for what it is. When one does so, they began to see their nature as it truly is, unregenerated, retrobate, contrary to the will of God.

    The born again Christian is still a sinner but a sinner with the spirit of Jesus in their hearts and the Holy Spirit on their shoulder. God judges the hearts of his children, not their sin. It is not up to you or any human to judge the heart of any person or even to presume that someone will go to hell because of a particular sin that you are aware of them committing because surely you have your own set of sins that you are repentent of but are unable to completely excape.

    Homsexuality in today's PC world is to often totted as being an acceptable life style and the homosexual that promotes it, are obviously not repentent, thus hell fire for them while the repentent homosexual is saved.

    Does this mean that the presumed saved homosexual has ceased from committing this particular sin. Not necessarily. He or she simply see themselves and their nature for what it is are are extremely grateful to God for his saving grace.

    I would not volenteer for hell John, you don't want to go there!

  • arlywn

    Erik, I’m confused. Are you saying that by simply acknowledging the fact that homosexuality is a sin, you’ll still go to heaven. Or do you actually have to stop commiting the sin too?

    Because if thats the case, then a lot of people are going to heaven even though they do horrid things.

  • http://willigotoheaven stevie

    im gay but im still a good person so hopefully that will be enough to get me in through the gates of heaven but if i had to stop being to get into heaven if that was the only way i wouldnt do it because that means i wouldnt be being myself and i have every right to be myself

  • http://permanent david1995

    hey,

    my name is David Flores

    and i am a 14 yr. old boy

    from New Jersey

    i am Biisexual and S0mewat happy wif

    my life but some ppl jus can’t accept

    it waat shuld i do i loved wat u

    wrote there n ppl always say “Ooo itz

    an Obomination”

    then ppl are always callin me a faq or

    faqqet or qay n i suck this i suck tht

    wat should i do anyone plz email me with

    answers i need help E-Mail:DaViiDSoNaSty@aol.com

    plz email me wif Answers!!! i need help

    • Bill

      You need help alright. Get real, and I mean that literally because you aren’t.

      • brad

        Bill,
        I am concern with your attempt to push the word and act of homosexuality away so quickly as if it is not in the Bible. What about "Sodomy, Sodomites & Sodom." And the list goes on with several verses speaking of the act of homosexuality. It has and will always be in the Bible, original word.
        I would be interested in your thoughts, thanks.
        Brad


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X