Christians: Can We Please Stop Embarrassing Ourselves With the Likes of Carrie Prejean?

carrie

You can just see how clearly unaware she is that this picture is being taken.

As both a Christian and a normal, everyday person, I find repelling (and maybe worse: boring) the idea of Carrie Prejean as anything resembling a moral authority. I don’t mind that she’s made her career presenting herself to the world as masturbatory fodder. Except for maybe Hugh Hefner’s family, I don’t see anything “family values” about that, but women getting paid to sexually objectify themselves is as old as craven desire itself. What makes absurd Ms. Prejean being positioned as morally admirable is that she’s such an absurdly blatant liar. Saying she didn’t know those soft-porn photos of her were being taken is like an armed bank robber saying he didn’t know anyone would put money in his sack. She’s lying. How she imagines anyone won’t think she’s lying is so far beyond me that I can only assume thinking isn’t one of Ms. Prejean’s strong suits.

It is certainly Ms. Prejean’s right to pose for the cheesecake photos she did. But if we Christians ever want non-Christians to take us any more seriously than they do, we have got to stop proclaiming as upright moral heroes people who by their actions conclusively prove that they have no more right claiming a moral high ground than Ryan Seacrest would have claiming he’s a brain surgeon. It’s good that Ms. Prejean stood up for her belief that gays shouldn’t be allowed to get married. But that belief is part of a moral code, the much larger part of which she egregiously violated by out-and-out lying in public about what, why, and how she did what she did.

Prejean’s bald-faced lying should have obliterated the possibility of Christians holding her up as a hero—much less as, of all things, a moral authority. We need to stop embarrassing ourselves this way.

(By way of an update to this post, I today [11/12/o9] The Reason Carrie Prejean Wanted Her Ex to Lie About Her Porno Tape.)

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About John Shore

John Shore (who, fwiw, is straight) is the author of UNFAIR: Christians and the LGBT Question, and three other great books. He is founder of Unfundamentalist Christians (on Facebook here), and executive editor of the Unfundamentalist Christians group blog.  (In total John's two blogs receive some 250,000 views per month.) John is also co-founder of The NALT Christians Project, which was written about by TIME,  The Washington Post, and others. His website is JohnShore.com. You're invited to like John's Facebook page. Don't forget to sign up for his mucho-awesome newsletter.

  • http://blog.jonolan.net jonolan

    Has it occurred to you that people DON'T think of Ms. Prejean as a "moral authority" and that they just think of her as a very brave but flawed Christian who voiced her beliefs in the face of vicious and depraved opposition?

    Just because Ms. Prejean is flawed and has made some wrongheaded and sinful decisions doesn't detract from the courage her statement took to make. It's that courage that makes people take pride in her, not her lack of sin.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    I didn't say she shouldn't be taken seriously because of her past mistakes. I'm saying she shouldn't be taken seriously because of her current, ongoing lying. I don't want a proven public liar being championed as someone who represents the same value structure Jesus came to communicate.

  • http://www.ipandora.net matthew

    Stand up for anyone who states their mind? Yes.

    Especially if I agree with it? Yes.

    Put them on a pedestal? Only if they deserve it.

    Not everybody does.

  • http://helly.tripod.com Helly

    I'm sorry, but I don't really see any courage in her statements of her beliefs. I see her more as someone who is easily swayed and goes with the opinion of the people who surround her, rather than put intelligent thought behind why she believes what she does. That's not being brave, that's being a sheep.

    I wouldn't take pride in or look up to every single person who agrees with my stance in things (regardless of what the issue may be)– if they're just spouting off sound bites, without really understanding why they think they way they do, why should I?

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Matthew: Not to nitpick, but are you SURE you want to automatically "stand up" for anyone and everyone who states their mind? Don't you sometimes wish people would shut-up, sit down, and STOP stating their mind? I'm glad people have the RIGHT in this country to speak their mind, but sometimes I sure do wish that so many of them weren't in such a huge rush to do it all the time. I HATE, like, Nazis, or KKK guys, or whatever, speaking their minds.

  • DysfunctionalParrot

    Prejean never signed up as a "moral authority" any more than if any of us if we wound up in the news.

    The girl is a model. That's her job. She just also has an opinion. Unfortunately for the judges, it was a Christian one.

    If you're looking to trash her because she's not Christian "enough", then you may want to keep watch for that same yard stick when it comes around to measure your life. The girl showed guts, and more than me and you would have shown in the same situation.

    Really, we could use a few more like her in the church and a few less "armchair quarterbacks" if you ask me.

    -DP

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    I didn't say that Prejean signed up as a moral authority—though it's certainly true she's hopped on that train and is riding it as far as it can take her. My complaint is with Christians who are now crowing about what a moral hero she is. Her opportunistic lying should make of her an embarrassment to us, instead of what she's being hailed as, which is a source of pride.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/William-Ely/614396749 William

    I have two issues with this post and the following comments.

    First of all sex (or sexy photography) is not a moral issue. That is like saying eating or breathing is a moral issue. Lying undermines her credibility, but again as long as it's not hurting anyone, it's not a moral issue.

    Secondly, there is no such thing as a moral "authority". Morality is objective , therefore cannot have an authority.

    For example, my moral code is simple: If an action causes harm or suffering to another living thing without cause, it is immoral. It is very simple and it makes perfect sense.

    I would not think to press my simple and easy code on others and I cannot tolerate those who try to press theirs on me. Anyone who thinks that they could or should be a moral role model to anyone other than their own children is simply being arrogant.

    If anyone actually has the spare time to worry about a girl using her physical features to make money, then I wish I had your lack of real problems. Do you worry about a man who uses his strong back to lift heavy things for a living? It's the same thing, they are both using their physical strengths to make a living. It's just that a lot of people have hang ups about sex but not about lifting stuff.

    Just adding another view, please don't take personal offense anybody.

  • texaspolitic

    Wow….not sure what bothers me more…..the fact that you show so much venom for Carrie, or the fact that you call yourself a Christian (not sure I beleive that). Do you bemoan the fact that you didn't get that opportunity or simply that a pageant contestant can't really be a good Christian in your world? I think you should figure out how to be as articulate and bold in your life, as she is in hers…..I see nothing on your site that makes me feel you are in any position to judge her as you are. Not trying to insult you…but I've never cared for Christians that attack other Christians for thier life choices or the manner in which they profess their faith and conviction. I'd sure like a peek at your background…and then all the posters here can judge you as you have attempted to judge her.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Calm down, Tex. The only "judgment" I made about Prejean is that she lied about the pictures. And that's a call that hardly takes any "judgment" whatsoever, since it's manifestly true. All I'm saying is that Christians shouldn't hold up public liars as examples of moral rectitude. Nothing to get upset about; I'm sure you agree with that.

  • Melissa

    Hmmm, not sure that some of you read John's post carefully. He simply said that she is lying and continues to lie. She is doing this while making the rounds of the Christian talk shows and other media outlets and that's what is so objectionable. I never cared about the statement she made – she has a right to her opinion. However, why did she choose to lie when submitting her application? Why is she lying about the photos now? She didn't KNOW? C'mon, really? If she is so "brave" about voicing her opposition to same sex marriage then why can't she be brave about this matter. Where are her "guts" when it comes to telling the truth about the photos? I have to say I agree – why would she position herself (and there's no doubt she HAS positioned herself) as a Christian voice while lying through her beautiful white teeth?

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Melissa: Thank you! I THOUGHT I had been clear in my post—but, apparently, again, failed. But, yeah. What you said.

  • http://blog.jonolan.net jonolan

    John,

    Have you actually found people claiming ms. Prejean to be a "moral authority?" I haven't done so myself, but have found many lauding her courage for standing up for her beliefs on marriage.

  • http://www.1truebeliever.wordpress.com wickle

    Jonolan,

    The National Organization for Marriage wants her as a spokeswoman. That seems to imply that they're regarding her as a moral authority.

    Moreover, she's being trotted out all over the place, being interviewed by Dobson, etc.. Lots of people state opinions, most of us don't get propped up onto national platforms all the time. If you spend this much time propping a person up and sticking microphones in her face, then you're implying a level of moral authority to speak on issues.

  • http://www.1truebeliever.wordpress.com wickle

    Oh, I missed it! (Sorry about the double comment, but I had to remark …)

    John, you had another person doubting that you're a real Christian because you dared to challenge an idol! What's the count on that now, anyway?

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Wickle: Thank GOD for readers like you. I wasn't even going to answer Jonalon; not because I thought he/she had no point, but just because I'm kind of … tired of stating the obvious. So it was SO cool for me when you answered his/her question so perfectly succinctly. When readers and those like you step in like that (as did Melissa just above you), it's just a Godsend for me. THANKS!

    What's the count on how many times I've been accused of not REALLY being a Christian? You mean just today?

  • http://megaloi.blogspot.com Redlefty (Michael)

    I've missed most of the hulabaloo about this chick, but lemme see if I have it straight:

    She struts around in almost no clothing, all made-up and oiled-up specifically to inspire sexual arousal and thus be rewarded with a trophy and a title. While doing so, she ironically makes a statement about what is improper for other adults to be doing in their own bedrooms.

    And this is worthy of being repeatedly interviewed and lauded by some Christian circles.

    Is that about right?

    Question — if a man pleasures himself, is that technically homosexuality, since it's man-on-man? If so, then she's probably responsible for millions of such acts, based on my purely-objective research done through Google Image…

  • Thuyen

    There was a man who was publically asked if he was a follower of Christ. He lied. Three times. He denied he knew Christ. He denied he followed Christ.

    His name? Peter.

    What is my point? Even the best of us among believers can fall to that temptation to lie? Did it destroy Peter's moral authority? Christ restored him. Of course, he had to repent.

    And what is worse? Lying about one's past sins one may be ashamed of (I am not convinced Prejean knowingly lied) or lying to deny one has faith in Christ?

    My point is that Peter was hardly grilled at that moment in time the way Prejean was (of course that would change when an emperor by the name of Nero took the throne).

    And we are in no position to know if she is lying or not on the photos in regards to the "wind." If what she said is true, that would hardly be the first time that this happened in any modeling shots or what is caught on tv by accident. And let's fact- most of her pictures, would not have been considered nudity or semi-nudity if it has been anyone else doing that shot. Not saying that is right mind to have, but that's how our culture operates. One has to look at SI covers, and I seriously doubt all these liberals trashing her over that would see them as even semi-nudity. Maybe she did believe because of the culture we are in that the photos were not nudity or semi-nudity. It is plausible.

  • Thuyen

    I do agree that Christians should talk to her about their concerns of her being part of MISS USA by the way.

    Few Christians I know hold her up on the pedestal, even the ones that support her.

    My take is that she is getting blasted by the liberals who have no use for truth or morals. And she has refused to back down. She has taken all sorts of abuse and still stood her ground. And she has done so graciously and maturely. She has turned the other cheek and not retaliate.

    So while she may not be as mature as many Christians in regards to being a model in ways alot of us object to, the way she has handled having herself and her whole family being attacked without insulting back shows maturity alot of Christians lack. In how she dealt with those who hate her, she responded with love, and that is indeed Christ-like.

    Is she the best spokesperson for moral values? No.

    But she ought to be defended for standing up for what she believe and not backing down to liberal bullies, while extending grace to those who have hurt her and her family with their vendetta and attacks.

  • Thuyen

    And I overstated myself on Peter. He did suffer persecutions right after Chist's ascension when he took the lead in preaching early on in book of Acts.

  • Greta Sheppard

    John, if there is a crown in heaven for having Guts, I am positive you will wear a star-studded one. You are admirable in addressing the falsehood of Ms. Prejean . . . she appears to be a 'double-minded' lady….speaks with forked tongue . . . her actions don't match her mouth.

    Quite frankly, I am confused by the mixed message she sends!

  • ES165

    Do you own a television set? Do you dare turn it on. Be careful, you may see and ad to Prel Shampoo or some other beauty product that exposes as much flesh as those pictures of Carrie Prejean that you so manipulatively call soft porn. As a reference point you might want to do a search for "shanna moakler nude photos".

    I'm not terribly religious and happy that I can observe this without that cloud. I believe the injection of religion into this is a smoke screen from all sides. Either you live in a country were anyone has the right to an opinion or the country has taken a wrong turn somewhere. It's the most fundamental of rights and what separates us from the many dictatorships in this world.

    I think the swim suit exhibition is pretty low but it's a beauty pageant. We can always turn of the television … and don't forget to switch channels during the shampoo ad….

  • Enough Already

    I totally agree with the article. But this is enough already she does not deserve this much attention she did not win the pagent, by the way who did, see i already forgot because of all of this. Can we move on?

  • Rochelle

    So… if no one who ever lied should ever be held up as a Godly example then you would have to discount… um Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (whose very name meant deceiver), Samson, Rahab, David, Ester (who competed in a beauty pageant and kept her Jewish identity a secret in order to marry a pagan king), Peter, Paul, etc. In fact, most of the people in the Bible would be disqualified. And yet, God felt they would be great examples of the faith (warts and all) to us. God has a history of using broken, flawed, and even sinful people for his glory. Who are we to decide that someone is too flawed for God to use for His glory? As humans even those with the best of discernment can only see part of the picture. Who of us knows for sure if she is lying and who of us is sinless enough to cast the first stone even if she is? Only God truly knows what is in her heart. What God does and who he chooses often baffles our self righteous (me included) minds and assumptions but He is God. He can choose whoever he pleases to represent and witness for him. I don't think anyone whom God held up as an example of the faith in his Word (other than Jesus) ever deserved it on his or her own merits. It was then and always will be by grace.

  • Rochelle

    Not discrediting any assertions you have made or justifying sin by any means but just saying check the Word and you will see that God has apprehended and used even those who were active in their sins like the apostle Paul (aka Saul of Tarsas). He even used a donkey to warn Balaam so who are we to say that someone is not qualified to be God's spokesperson?

  • Rochelle

    And Rahab was a harlot, and yet God not only saved her life and the life of her family from destruction but chose her to be in the very line of Christ and even recorded her name as one of the few women listed in the genealogy of Christ. Ever notice how all the women listed in Jesus' genealogy are what we would consider bad girls? Tamar posed as a harlot and had sex with her own father in law (Judah) to have children and she one of her sons was listed in the genealogy of Christ. Bathsheba was and adulteress. Get my point….? Okay, I am off of my soapbox now.

  • PurplePeople

    While I don't deny that an attractive woman has a right to leverage her looks to make a living; I don't have to respect that she does it at the expense of other women. Allowing herself to be objectified diminishes the status of all women. …but this the human (male) animal and that is as old as our species and it is delusion to think that things will ever change in this regard. Dudes will be titalated by attractive women and women will take advantage of that until our species disappears. Let's get over that aspect of this story.

    The only thing of note here, is that the one-noted Christian right has put her up on a pedestal because she persecutes homosexuals. Never mind that so much of what she did and does is supposedly anti-Christian values. It just diminishes the Christian-values position. I wonder what would happen if Linda Lovelace (of Deep Throat porn film 'fame') came out for 'traditional' marriage and pro-life. Would she make the Christian talk-show circuit? Probably.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Rochelle: You're right: we can't ever know what God's doing, or who he's using for what reasons. That's why we have to decide a lot of times for ourselves what's right and wrong; otherwise, we just become those weaklings who are forever showing no initiative or judgment at all, since "it's all up to God."

    Sometimes—most often—we have to make our own calls about what's right and wrong. And God DOES equip us to that: we all know what's really right and wrong. And I think it's safe to say that we shouldn't be proud to let someone who is an active, ongoing liar be hailed as a representative of us or God.

  • Thuyen

    "The only thing of note here, is that the one-noted Christian right has put her up on a pedestal because she persecutes homosexuals."

    Wrong on different counts. First, she did not persecute homsexuals (nowhere did she say she hates gays, which would be unbiblical thing to do and would be rightfully called by many as "persecution", nor state they are living in sin, which would be a biblical thing to do and would have gotten her unjustly accused of persecuting gays). She simply stated the same stance as Obama and the Clintons (one of whom, need I remind you, sign a law banning gay marriage when he was President) on the issue of gay marriage. Not to mention the same view of most conservatives, secular or religious. Not to mention, most importantly, her view on marriage between man and woman is articulated by none other than Christ in three of the gospels as well as the apostle Paul.

    Secondly, the reason conservative Christians (and quite frankly even liberal ones) embrace her is because they cannot stand the bullying tactics so familar that is being done to Prejean over what she said that is not considered PC. She could very well be a conservative on this issue but liberal on others. We don't know. But we do know that this is a common tactic by the PC crowd, and enough is enough. She is not running for political office, and the attacks on her and her family, via attempts at public shaming and digging up her past, is nothing but a pathetic witchhunt I don't advocate done on anybody.

    "Never mind that so much of what she did and does is supposedly anti-Christian values. It just diminishes the Christian-values position. I wonder what would happen if Linda Lovelace (of Deep Throat porn film ‘fame’) came out for ‘traditional’ marriage and pro-life. Would she make the Christian talk-show circuit? Probably."

    Much, if nearly all, that is being used against Prejean are things dug up from her past, which is shameful behaviour of those who dug up her past and says more about them than her. How do we know her values are the same then as today? We don't. It was wrong to use one's past sins as proof one cannot speak the truth now.

    Does anyone can claim to being sinless? What the skeletons in your closest from your past revealed for all to see to undermine anything yo have to say now?

    Being a Christian involves knowing what one is a sinner past, present, and future until the day one dies and is united with God. The difference for us is that we are forgiven sinners. Being forgiven of our sins by believing and living out that faith does not mean we become sinless. We don't. We still struggle with sin and many times fall into sin. But that does not mean we cannot make a stance for what we believe as long as we grow and strive to grow.

    David did things far worse than Prejean ever did: married different women, committed adultery and then murder to cover that up, etc. And guess what? He was the man God said was the one who sought after His own heart.

  • Thuyen

    "And I think it’s safe to say that we shouldn’t be proud to let someone who is an active, ongoing liar be hailed as a representative of us or God."

    Then Christ would be wrong to let Peter be representative of us or God. Peter lied THREE

  • Thuyen

    "And I think it’s safe to say that we shouldn’t be proud to let someone who is an active, ongoing liar be hailed as a representative of us or God."

    Then Christ would be wrong to let Peter be representative of us or God. Peter lied THREE TIMES when asked if he knew Christ.

    And sorry, but we are not in position to know if Prejean lied or not. The photos referred to I know for a fact many people, even including some Christians, would NOT deem as nude or semi-nude if it had not been her over her stance on an issue. When is the last time anyone call many of the similar covers of SI as well as on many ads in newspapers and mainstream "non-porno" mag nudes or semi-nudes? Don't blame her for this- blame the culture that decides that photos more lewd than hers don't qualify as nudes or semi-nudes. She could very well given she is part of the beauty pageant that shows more skin than her photos bought into the notion these are not semi-nudes or nudes.

    And like I said, her statements about the "wind" causing her body to be shown more than she wished is not unusual. Look at recent news of mishaps by celebrities where accidentally they expose themselves unintentionally in public and get caught on video doing so (example: Tara Reid).

    The bottom line is this: what is worse? Denying Christ three times? Or denying things, if it is the case you state, one is ashamed of what one did in the past?

    I suggest those who throw stones find themselves in the same position is in, with every sin of one's past dug out and family maligned, and see how tough you are then to be able to walk the walk.

    Her actions are far more mature than many would be in her position. No retaliations. No mudslinging back at others. Turning the other cheek.

  • Thuyen

    I am proud of Prejean because she stood by her views when she was attacked. All she had to do for the attacks to stop is to pander to those who attack her. By not doing so, she ensure the attacks would continue and she would be blacklisted by the liberal elites of Hollywood. She sacrificed alot there to stand by her principles.

    I don't put her on a pedestal. I recognize she has sins of the past just as all of us have sins of the past as well as present. No one can claim to be without sin even as believers. She has not done so.

    Even if she lied, I am not going to be mad at her over that, because I see that as more in giving in her to her moments of weaknesses when she is being publically humiliated and shamed.

    The type of lies the Bible condemn are those of gossip, slander, and bearing false witness, all of which her liberal distractors are blatantly guilty of in order to try to destroy someone who has a view dfferent from them.

    The ones who are hailed by conservatives for their stand that you would have a case against on that level would be folks, for examples, who as pastors accused Clinton of drug trafficking and murder and pass that around as truth. (And believe me I am no big fan of Clinton or any liberal President.)

  • PurplePeople

    Thuyen:

    You are correct. In haste, I used the term 'persecute' which was inappropriate. My apologies.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Thuyen: Again: It's not that she lied. It's that she's lyING. Presently. Now. Ongoing. She KEEPS lying. That disqualifies her as someone who is walking with God.

    And, again: Yes, JESUS can decide who is and isn't doing what he wants, and how. We're not Jesus. We're just us. So–as I said to Rochelle–we have to use everything we know about good and bad and right and wrong when we're deciding and intuiting about all things related to God. And I don't see how anyone can argue that, given what WE know, it's wrong to put forth as a champion of God someone who's actively lying (for money, no less: Prejean is getting PAID for what she's saying now).

    And, again: It's not a question of how pornographic or not were the photos. It's that she's LYING about not knowing they were taken. Of course she knew: she's looking right at the camera. And if you think a woman looking into a camera isn't aware that her nipple is showing, you know squat about women.

  • http://helly.tripod.com Helly

    To those who use other Biblical examples of liars and sinners who received God's grace and forgiveness, you're missing one key point– they *repented* of what they were doing, and *stopped*. That does not appear to be the case here.

  • Phil

    I really, truly had hoped I could just move on with my life and stop defending Carrie Prejean from bigoted Christians who are SHOCKED — SHOCKED! — to find out she is not perfect, when I came across this screed.

    A few points:

    1. The person who owns the organization she supposedly "lied" to, Donald Trump, says she didn't lie. If the alleged victim of a crime says the crime never occurred, then the crime never occurred. Period, end of story.

    2. During a photo shoot, a gazillion pictures are taken. When the model is already scantily clad, the probability of a wardrobe malfunction rises exponentially. In hundreds of photo shoots, some frames are bound to capture these awkward moments. That's why release forms specify which pictures can be published. Whatever was exposed or not exposed in those pictures, Carrie was telling the truth about the pictures because she had NOT AGREED TO DO A NUDE PHOTO SHOOT. In the picture that was actually published in Bl!sss, she was fully covered. So she was telling the truth there, too.

    3. She never claimed to be a moral authority. She was asked a question. She answered it honestly. All the rest was thrust upon her.

    4. Calling her a "bald-faced liar" for publication is, I believe, a sin, although I forget just which one. Oh, yeah — Jesus talked about it in Matthew 18: 15-17. Have you gone through all the steps Jesus outlined for calling her out for her sin? No? Didn't think so.

    Attacks by some Christians started even before the first photograph appeared. It seems even appearing in a beauty pageant is sinful because it "objectifies" women. I've got news for you, folks: it's women who "objectify" themselves. They're the ones who buy the magazines and catalogs with all the scantily-clad models and who buy the products they advertise — all so they can look as sexually attractive as the models.

    Carrie Prejean is a sister who took a public and costly stand for her faith. Other Christians should stand with her — as her church and her Christian college have done — not attack her for not being perfect.

  • Naomi

    Hello, john.

    I respect your views on this issue and also if you had listened to chris fabry broadcast of moody radio on this past tuesday, one guest who runs the moody in south florida agreed to your views to an extent. She also agrees that carrie is not someone whom people can call her a role model, as of now. But, carrie has stated she regrets doing those shots where she was semi nude, since her friends took those pictures. She is not the first and last person to be in that situation, as many girls would have been like her and she has stated that she regrets doing it on focus on the family.

    I do agree with the swimsuit(bikini) competition and posing in a vest and undies which is no difference than walking in a bikini, its still doing it for money and that was precisely her job as a model. Carrie has shown some maturity in advising girls on focus on the family that "modeling is a dark world and satan's in it". She admits that her job was wrong and advises that girls who are thinking about going into this profession should pray about it and not be naive like she was.

    I understand carrie's regrets and the tough times she's going through regarding this issue, but we should pray for her rather then criticize her. We should also pray that someone will convict her in a gentle and loving way as its said in the Bible, about her sins which has nothing to do with being naive, but her previous life was dark like carrie herself said and bring her into the light and hopefully she'll commit her life to Christ and mature.

  • Sarah

    Well, i do agree with john but i am not putting down carrie prejean either since everyone has sinned, but her church and her pastors are the right person to teach and instruct her on this whole issue, so we can't judge her. No one has said she's a great moral person and carrie herself is not behaving like that. As of recent events, she has turned into defending herself by bringing freedom of speech and constitutional rights into the picture, and yes she has been defending herself over this whole picture incidents. I can't judge her by positively stating that she is a liar, but according to her interviews on fox news w.hannity she said that in california a swimsuit is no big deal. Its still confusing since does she mean bikini which does showcase the whole body or her photo shoots which instead a bra, its a vest but she's a model and they are supposed to all that stuff and be confident in wearing those.

    All this is carrie's past and i don't find her to be lying instead she's talking like any other model who can say its no big deal doing these stuff, but since she is a strong Christian her conduct is unacceptable and its really simple to discern between modesty and vulgarity. This is only in terms of dressing and her way of life was nowhere near rahab and mary magdalene the prostitutes, or david whose done far worse things.

    Moreover i respect people's comments in this post but to compare carrie prejean to specific sinful people of the bible that are mentioned here is an exaggeration, since its really simple for a woman to discern whats modest and whats not in terms of dressing. Her modesty is the only issue here which happened to be provocative in terms of her showcasing her body for the public, and sadly its not a big deal in the western culture as carrie said. Even in the muslim world that does not contain any truth in its religion, they still know alot about modesty than us. As their religion speaks and are understood more clearly by muslim women regarding this issue, than the Bible speaks and is understood by us Christian women.

  • Rochele

    My point in comparing her to the people who sinned in the Bible is to say that God uses broken flawed people. He chooses whom HE will use… not us. Yes, someone of my generation (I am a younger end baby boomer) would think that it should be easy for a woman to know what she should wear or not wear but in this day and age such modesty is sadly not always taught anymore in the home. So we cannot assume that anyone SHOULD know how to dress. She is young and has a lot of maturing to do so we need to pray for her and a godly older woman probably needs to come along side of her in love and mentor her. We all have to come to maturity at some point in our faith and you have to walk before you can run. Why would God hold such people up as examples if he did not already know we would be enslaved by our sinful nature and that if these people can be transformed and become champions so can we. Read Hebrews 11. How many of those people were perfect? Yet they are held up as champions of the faith. We cannot just ignore God's Word and the examples that He gives in favor of our opinions

  • Kelly

    This discussion is really funny. Amazing how people still follow a book that is filled with so much revenge, hate, and violence, yet ignore those parts and cherry pick the parts they feel more comfortable with.

    Since everyone else is doing so, here's my cherry-picked contribution:

    1 Peter 3:1-22:

    Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands…

    1 Timothy 2:11-14:

    Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

    So if the Bible is the word of "God", then shouldn't all women go home and be silent?

    What a silly book.

  • Thuyen

    "I wish she would just sit down and shut up. I’ve found it much better to be silent and considered a dolt, than to open my gob and remove all doubt."

    Hard to do when a bunch of liberals descend on her like pack of wolves attacking and smearing her and her family as well. Would any of us show as much grace as she has to them and not throw accusations at them of like nature?

  • Thuyen

    It is called calling as I see it. Put yourself in the same situation as Prejean and have the same thing happen to with all the most shameful things you ever thought or did put out for the whole world to see and your name smeared and disgraced and your family under attack. Then let's see how tough you will be under the circumstances to not give in to temptation to lie and at the same time remain gracious.

    That was what I was trying to say. In this case, it was the liberal media, blogs, etc., doing all this to one young college age lady for stating the same view as the most liberal President in this country's history.

    And it stinks.

  • Thuyen

    "The person who owns the organization she supposedly “lied” to, Donald Trump, says she didn’t lie. If the alleged victim of a crime says the crime never occurred, then the crime never occurred. Period, end of story."

    Exactly. I would like to add that most folks who condemn Prejean and say she is a liar and hypocrite cannot do so without condemning themselves on those same grounds given very few in this day and age see similar or worse photos on SI and other mags as nudes or even semi-nudes. My point is Prejean could very well believe in her head those things she said, because of the culture she was surrounded with. Being raised Christian does not mean one is free from sin nor free from sinful influences (even parents raising children to be Christians could very well also not have biblical views on some issues on morality).

    We need to be very careful to assume those are lies. People made great points "accidents" do happen in photo shoots also.

  • sjdawson

    I think what has bothered me the most about Ms Prejean is that she has cried persecution. She expressed an opinion on a current topic.She expressed a strong opinion. She got some blowback (she was criticized by people who disagreed with her. She didn't win the title that SHE felt that she should've won. She now claims that she lost that title because she expressed her opinion. Then she says that her grandfather fought to defend her right to free speech. She never lost her right to free speech. She ran into people who voiced their opinion and disagreement to her opinion.

    When she is presented with photos that are racy, she claims that she didnt know that they some of them were being taken. Yet, she makes a big deal about how Satan was tempting her with the question about gay marriage.

    Life lessons from this:

    Express an opinion, expect that someone may disagree and it may cost you a job.

    Fess up when you do something. Frankly, I don't find the pictures as offensive as her claim that her right to free speech was trampled on.

  • Katlu

    I guess I'll let myself be the gnostic sacrificial lamb for this post…but after I read this blog I had to

    comment.

    If you want non-Christians to take you seriously then you let go of many of the social issues that seem to cause such division in our society. Immorality has been around since the dawn of time and even the people who try to hold themselves to a higher moral standards will make mistakes. Miss Prejean's biggest failing is that she is trying to blame her circumstances on others instead of being a gracious runner-up and taking responsibility for her past actions. I can say this though, as long as Christians take it upon themselves to judge and condemn others then it will be very hard to take Christians seriously. Even if you guys are right in the end, God will judge those as he see fits. Showing love and compassion to EVERYONE irregardless of their lifestyle, their beliefs, or their past actions, would be a very good start towards Non-Christians taking you seriously.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Wow, have you ever … not ever read my blog before. Cool enough! But trust me: I'm on your side on this.

  • Rochelle

    Oops was typing so fast I mispelled my own name. Sheesh.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore
  • Katlu

    Actually until today I had never been to your blog. I decided to read some more…Mr. Shore, you are one of the few bloggers to have earned my respect.

  • Sarah

    @Rochelle

    I understand what your saying but don’t take my comments as any means of ignoring God’s words and I do agree with everything you have stated. Overall, its sad that this modesty has not been taught at home, and this also shows one way that culture and feel good christianity is taking over the true word of God. But, again this is just an issue of modesty not any sins that people mentioned in the Bible, no where in the Bible did women get condemned for her modesty nor transformed from their sinful lives regarding that. The sins that biblical men and women committed were not simple as in carrie prejean’s case of just doing a photo shoots for application for a pagent or a job known as modeling. Even prostitution sadly is a job but carrie has assured us that she’s not going to stoop that low, as again in fox news interview she said magazines have offered a million dollars for provocative magazine but she denied.

    So, Carrie prejean is wise b.c she knows where to draw the line, but this can be applied to going on the pagent and doing those photoshoots, and she has only defended herself by saying swimsuit is no big deal in california. According to me carrie is intelligent but not only we should be vary of cultural bombardment but feel good christianity who chooses style over substance. On one hand, women should know how to dress but western world is not like the muslim world, where religion is instilled in governing the country and moral codes of every citizen even in terms of dressing.

    Thanks for your reply.

  • http://www.maranathachapel.org Tim

    I guess I see your point. The only moral authority safe to underwrite is the Lord God. Prejean is a sinner just like I am (except I’m not near as good looking). I don’t know if I would have the chutzpah to say she’s a liar. I wasn’t there when those photos in question were snapped off. She could just be profoundly clueless. Or maybe she meant to say that she didn’t know those pictures would come back to nibble her bum. Too bad, Carrie. But sin, like chickens, eventually come back to roost. But because Jesus gave me a whole ship-load of grace, I tend to dispense it too liberally. I wish she would just sit down and shut up. I’ve found it much better to be silent and considered a dolt, than to open my gob and remove all doubt.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Thuyen: What is with you and this constant demonizing of “liberals”? Surely you’re capable of thought more subtle than that. I’m sitting on a chair that is.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Okay, friend, that’s the 10th time you’ve commented on this post. We’re hearing you. Let’s see if anyone else has anything to say, okay? Thank you.

  • sammie

    As a Christian, I agree that Carrie should not be a Christian role model. I think consistant mistruths about her poor choices in posing for nude photos and placing the blame on someone else (photographer) is more harmful to her Christian image than any positives that may come from her statement on gay marriage. Isn't it true that "actions speak louder than words?' Also, I think the attitude she displays when speaking about the matter is not exemplary.

    Sometimes people, including politicians, talk show hosts and, perhaps beauty contestents, use Christianity as an end to a means to achieve fame and fortune. I think, we a Christians, need to be careful we are not looking at issues with "eyes wide shut."

  • Cindy

    @Thuyen

    You can't blame anyone attacking carrie prejean regarding speaking out the truth regarding what marriage should be, nor can you blame the media for attacking her and her family for gossiping but sadly they are doing their jobs and brought out all these incidents which is very strange. In the beginning, only the person who got offended attacked her seriously and carrie became this hero who took everything in her stride with alot of grace and courage. But this battle is not over and instead of taking in the fresh bunch of attacks thrown at her, she has become so worried about those pictures that she really felt the need to put the blame on the media prying into her private life too much and the photographer.

    Can you really stop what the media did to her, i mean i agree with carrie about facing attacks after speaking the truth but don't agree with her blame game that she recently started.

  • Cindy

    @Katlu

    First of all you made a great comment!

    I guess we should not "stone" carrie for all these recent incidents since based on the media's reactions surrounding everything about her, it comes with the territory of facing ALL kinds of attacks. Also, the media is pretty smart about the way they handled pretty much everything to constantly keep her literally in the limelight. I attend her church and was there for her message and carrie did want to come home badly since according to me she said the true words of the Bible, not any opinion and there's nothing more a runner up needs to do any more.

    I did expect all the immediate attacks on her to come her way, and i was excited about her testimony she shared on Christian college campuses and moody radio. Somewhere along the way, carrie was drawn to the same media that would bombard her with new controversies and her stand for marriage was soon forgotten. Instead of God's word the constitutional rights and her pictures and questions of why and when came more strongly. The whole point for standing up for the truth of God has not spread to people, instead its only the pictures and all that past that carrie must have left behind has come into the press.

    Carrie has been traveling a lot and there has been no time sit still in the presence of Christ and take all the gossips, slandering and be silent like Christ was. But the media wouldn't be too happy about being carrie just being a runner up and 21yr old girl standing up for her faith and they are still partly keeping her in their hands.

  • Mercredi38

    John,

    It's clear you don't get it, and I have to say I'm mildly surprised after following your posts for awhile now. What is for certain is that you don't 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' KNOW -for-certain she IS lying. Your post actually comes across as remarkably Pharisaic and overwhelmingly sneering at a girl who is perhaps caught up in a world beyond her maturity level: both intellectually and spriritually. Maybe it would be better for you to stick to commentary that DOES NOT promote stone-casting. By the way, I would have expected a 'mature' Christian such as yourself, to comprehend that the non-Christian world will NEVER and I do mean NEEEEEEEEEVER take Christians seriously in the vein of John 15:18 because 'hypocrisy' is a word reserved especially for US in post-modern society. Are her actions disappointing? Yes. Do you as a fellow believer have a right to implicate her as "masturbatory fodder"? WWJD, John? How is THAT edifying to this girl? I have to say, I'm more disappointed in you right now than Carrie.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    A. Yes, I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is lying. I can't help it if somehow the truth of that fact eludes you.

    B. I reject the notion that non-Christians just can't take Christianity seriously. That's absurd.

    C. Do you think CJ DOESN'T know that with those pictures she is making of herself masturbatory fodder? Please. Your argument's not with me, sister. It's with the truth here.

  • Annette

    Dear Sir:

    I agree with what you said about lying. I don't think Carrie deserved to be in the pageant because she was not honest about the photos when she filled in the application for the pageant. I also agree with what you said about non-Christians not taking Christians seriously. We see that in some of the remarks being made about all of this. My own view is that perhaps these superficial pageants are not the places where Christians should be.

    On the other hand, it was good that Carrie was not afraid to express her own views of marriage. She is being viciously attacked now. I will pray for her!

    Annette

  • Rochelle

    Hello

    I am not a moderator in any way shape of form but I think this is really starting to get ugly now. For crying out loud, we may disagree but we are NOT each other's enemy. Satan is. We are splitting hairs and fighting with our words against flesh and blood here. First of all if we were not there I don't think any of us can claim that we know with definite certainty that she lied. She is a normal fallible human being like all of us so we need to pray for her and just see things as they are. I am proud that she stood up for her beleifs but she is not without sin. All of us who are christians are sinners saved by grace. The fact is, if she has sincerely repented (which I hope she has) then she is forgiven and God no longer holds it against her. This does not mean that she will not suffer any consequences for her sins by any means or that she does not have room to grow mature and be chastened by God. Jacob was a piece of work but God had to really work him over good in order for him to become Israel and he still was not perfect after that. I think instead of attacking each other over whether she lied or what her fate should be, we should just realize that she is fallaible just like the rest of us and agree to disagree on the rest. My pastor always says if we all agreed on everything at all times, then someone is unnecessary.

  • http://blog.jonolan.net jonolan

    Yes, Ms. Prejean lied and has to continued to lie about the same things. She also, in face of an enemy who could do her harm, held to her faith and stated her beliefs irrespective of the harm that might or would do her. Later, in the face of continued persecution, she continued to stand by her beliefs rather than capitulating to the enemy.

    I don't see why you have so much a problem with some of your fellow Christians respecting Ms. Prejean for that and lauding her for her courage when she showed it. I don't see or hear anyone applauding her for her lying though – though I admit many are just remaining silent on it rather than even acknowledging it.

    "You can’t hold the hand of Christ AND lie in the way she is." Oh? Is there no room for sinners at your God's table anymore?

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    God, I just give up.

  • http://helly.tripod.com Helly

    Don't worry John, there's obviously a few people out there who didn't fail reading comprehension and actually got your point!

    • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

      Ahhhh. Relief. Thanks, Helly.

  • mercredi38

    O, give me a break.

    I had a psychologist friend of mine say once the reason he treated so many couples is because they thought they were better communicators than what they actually were.

    You're getting the posts you're getting because your original post has a "tone" of moral superiority to it NOT because you're necessarily wrong. It's the WAY you said it. Some word choices sound inflammatory and you know it. Writers write and choose their words for effect – don't act like you don't know the power of the written word.

    And no, I didn't fail "reading comprehension", I've got a host of post grad education (not that it matters for anything). Just because people don't "agree" with your phraseology and you fail to create understanding among SOME of your readers – does not make them idiots. Obviously, because you failed to get a single point I was trying to make with you.

    -I SAID the moment changed her life – NOT that it changed HER necessarily.

    -And my point about "sin-inducing qualudes" was simply that God gives those apart from Christ over to a debased mind (Romans 1:28) which is incapable of comprehending the things or nature of God. Why was that so hard to comprehend? "This is your brain. This is your brain on sin…get the picture?"

    But I'm done, because at this point, there's a failure to communicate in a way that's Godly, effective, or mutually edifying.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    And here we have yet another way to keep non-Christians as far away as possible from Christianity and Christians: assert that non-Christians are incapable of understanding the nature of God. Insulting AND repellingly arrogant. Perfect.

  • Thuyen

    JS: And here we have yet another way to keep non-Christians as far away as possible from Christianity and Christians: assert that non-Christians are incapable of understanding the nature of God. Insulting AND repellingly arrogant. Perfect.

    Me: In actuality, what you claim as insulting and repellingly arrogant is biblical.

    1 Corinthians 2

    14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 12

    3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

    John 6

    43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6

    63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

    Romans 3

    10There is no one righteous, not even one;

    11there is no one who understands,

    no one who seeks God.

    12All have turned away,

    they have together become worthless;

    there is no one who does good,

    not even one."[

    Romans 8

    6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

    • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

      And there we have those … Bible quotes.

  • Thuyen

    JS: And here we have yet another way to keep non-Christians as far away as possible from Christianity and Christians

    Me: Wrong. It is not another way to keep non-Christians as far away as possible from Christianity and Christians.

    Ephesians 2

    1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

    It is stating the truth of Scriptures. It may be offensive to folks who do not believe to hear that. But truth is truth. Paul wrote the gospel would itself be an offense to those who are perishing:

    1 Corinthians 1

    18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

    It is not in our power to draw people to Christ or Christianity. Our job is to preach the truth in love, even if that truth is offensive, and it is God's power and sovereignty to change hearts.

  • Greta Sheppard

    John, you have to be pretty thick skinned to take all this criticism!

    The way I see it, after reading all the comments, is that you have been misunderstood….some of your readers have ‘stretched the point’ you succinctly made.

    I do agree that Jesus calls us to not judge…..because we are all imperfect…..

    On the other hand, people are swayed by the media mongrels who happily over-play a ‘christian’s’ downfall. I, myself, feel badly that I atttacked the lady as I did. On the other hand, I am more upset with the press who won’t let it go or lay it down.

    God knows Ms. Prejean’s heart…..and He forgives her.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Greta: You wouldn’t BELIEVE the vehemence of so many of the “comments” I’ve gotten for this post. I delete and block them, but … yikes. I can’t imagine, at this point, how many times I’ve been accused of being … well, the OPPOSITE of a Christian, basically. Crazy stuff.

  • sam

    Hey john,

    From reading this article, its up to an individual to see carrie prejean as a role model for standing up for her beliefs regarding a controversial matter or to not see her as a role model based on her pictures and her plastic surgery. So far people had seen carrie as good role model but there’s also people who have a problem with her doing the swimsuit competition and plastic surgery, and then later on the pictures have certainly been decisive in whether people can look up to her or not. Overall, it depends on each individual and i think the press is making this into a big deal and it shouldn’t really be this controversial since its carrie prejean that is important and not “standing up for her faith”.

    Just because she attends a christian college this whole thing was been made out to be a persecution trial, and its really funny that even obama has the same views on definition of marriage and california has voted for Prop 8. Why is this even an issue and i don’t see carrie prejean as being persecuted or mocked for her faith, rather she said in the pageant that she has been raised to see marriage is only between man and woman. She didn’t even mention verses of the Bible or according to God this is marriage and Christian values says this. Even a person from another religion can say marriage is between man and woman according their own values or religion.

    I don’t see what the big deal is and why carrie prejean is still in the press especially after all the fuss has diminished particularly surrounding her statements, and yes i do applaud her for her stand but this isn’t different from what the president said and what majority of californian’s voted against same sex marriage said.

  • mercredi38

    To be honest,

    I just didn’t interpret an edifying spirit in your post John – that was my pt. I sensed a sneering sarcastic one – not a sincere “let’s build each other up here” one. I see now that wasn’t on your agenda.

    I’ve read your posts long enough to know that we come from similar backgrounds – you and I. Sorry if my post came across to you in a way that was argumentative – that was not the intent. The intent was to convey disappointment that you came out “swinging” against her in such a seemingly aggressive fashion. Perhaps, I misunderstood. It was really “tough love”.

    FYI, I don’t have an argument with you OR the “truth” of the situation; neither, do you have full access to the whole situation either (unless you. Carrie and D.Trump are all buds?). Regardless, I agree her actions ARE disappointing. They don’t help the ’cause’ of Christianity, and I have to admit I was miffed when this all came to a head.

    However it’s not up to me, you or anyone else. It’s up to God and if you believe in His sovereignty than you have to say:” Well, that’s it then!The rest of us squeaky- clean- holier- than- thouers, are just going to have to work harder to clean up the mess of the less spiritually fortunate”. (wink nudge nudge)…

    My point is, I churn every time I think of the stupid things I did early on in my walk with God. Heck, I’m making butter now as I type!!

    In addition, it’s not absurd to see that non-Christians will never take us “seriously” – THEY DON’T KNOW GOD!!! That means, according to Romans, GOD has given them OVER to a DEBASED mind. Their minds are effectively on the equivalent of sin- inducing qualudes. God is the one who justifies not man -we do the best we can, and even our best is most-often not good enough.He works DESPITE us.

    Could Carrie have done better, chosen better, acted better in her modeling career? Yes, yuppers, definitely. However, given the culture she’s raised in, she had a choice on that stage where she COULD have coasted on the question AND SHE DIDN’T. Is she a moral authority? NO!!! But for her, it was a moment that changed her life, and it had a purpose that only God knows what the outcome will be.

    I really don’t want to argue and please don’t accuse me of being delusional of the truth of the matter. We can see what she did for ourselves. There’s just no point in slinging mud toward another Christian – don’t we get that enough from the world?

    Much love – peace out bro.

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Mercred: You never have to worry about “sensing” a sneering sarcastic tone with me. If I’m meaning to be sneering and sarcastic, you’ll know it. (And you won’t, cuz … homey don’t play that.)

    I wasn’t “swinging” at CP at all. The closest I came to any personal comment about her at all was saying that she lied about her pictures. She did. That’s not snarky or mean or “swinging” at all. That’s stating the (ridiculously) obvious. I don’t have to have any inside information to know that’s true. Anyone can see it.

    I have no idea how you can seriously assert that the minds of non-Christians “debased,” and, as you put it, “on the equivalent of sin-inducing qualudes [sic].” That’s just … absurdly offensive.

    “The moment” didn’t change CP; it it HAD—if she was truly with God—then she’d stop lying. You can’t hold the hand of Christ AND lie in the way she is. You can do one or the other. She’s chosen the other. It’s not complicated. She lied, and she’s lying—and she’d getting paid to do so. A school child can see it. And I don’t CARE that she is. I care that so many Christians are applauding her for it.

    Man, I’m gettin’ tired of saying this.

  • Rochelle

    Dane

    She was 17 at the time these photos were taken. Presently she is 22. What if she has repented since then? Is there no forgiveness for any of us? If that is the case then all of us would be disqualified from representing Christ and being christians? If so then Christ died in vain. A woman was caught in the very act of adultery and brought to Jesus and He forgave her and told her to sin no more BEFORE she even had a chance to repent. For sure forgiveness does not mean there are no consequences for sin but the fact is that we do not know if she lied or even if she has repented so we need to drop our stones and let Jesus deal with her. Frankly I think we need to not spend so much time and energy trying to remove the speck from her eye when many of us have beams in our own eyes.

  • Greta Sheppard

    John . . .don't give up!

    You definitely have the Spirit of Christ in you!

    You are loved and respected by many as a man who stands solidly for Christian ethics.

    Sometimes you are 'wacky', [meaning modern] in your words and expressions, but that is what I and many others love about you! Fresh and thought provoking! Personally, I gag on the traditional, King Kames/Shakespearean expressions. By the way, did you know King James was an alcoholic?

    I always say that if God needed to speak through Balaam's donkey, He can use anybody He chooses to speak through today. AND I AM NOT COMPARING YOU TO BALAAMS ASS! lest somebody cracks a snide remark!

    You are hugely intelligent, warm and compassionate!

  • Greta Sheppard

    AMEN . . . I agree with Rochelle!

    It's time to get off cj's and john shores' back!

    There are more important issues at stake . . .

  • sam

    I am on rochelle's side on this one, its up to carrie and her personal walk with Christ and she goes to a good church and the pastor is really good so hopefully all of this would just finish and carrie can get back to her life.

    Its just that as someone said here that she is in the limelight for every reason and if carrie is defending herself and has no problem w.her pictures then its her life and not ours. Its partly the fault of the press that is attacking her Christian beliefs on the basis of her vulgar pictures, hence that is bringing this whole persecution thing that carrie is going through on another level. But, i don't see carrie being persecuted for her faith for that's the opinions of both the press and carrie prejean to feed of each other for being in the news. Carrie is still on the news talking more about freedom of speech rights and the picture stuff, and that's her business and she is pretty much done sharing her testimony which was excellent but the rest of what she had to say is for the reason of reacting to the press.

    So lets leave her alone for what carrie has to say does not concern us because she knows what she's doing and saying and that's between carrie and the press.

  • http://www.victoryworldquest.com Dane

    Prejean-Miss Hypocrite

    Carrie Prejean, the Miss California contestant, was correct about homosexuality! It is mortal filth

    and condemned by God’s Word…but Prejean poses semi nude and topless EXPOSING HER

    BREASTS and revealing the bottom of her buttocks…then lied about it…and then she parades

    her body around in the Miss California Pageant EXPOSING HER PARTIAL BREASTS and

    buttocks in a sexual immoral swimsuit before the world! She is 100% a HYPOCRITE and

    she does NOT represent Jesus Christ nor a Christian!!

    Jesus said it this way, “Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery

    with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better

    for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into Hell.” [Mt. 5:28,29]

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Wow. Crazy much?

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    Sad: OK, I'm gonna say this one more time, and I'm done:

    I didn't say the quote you quoted, starting with "Honestly." Those aren't my words. I have no idea why you attribute them to me. I didn't say them.

    My heart is utterly with CP. I spent a considerable amount of my life as a journalist dealing with models and the modeling industry. I understand—as anyone does—-that being valued for how you LOOK is a particularly virulent version of hell. I wouldn't wish on anyone CJ's apparent mindset about why she's valuable. She thinks the most interesting thing about her is that she's pretty. It's tragic.

    My complaint is with Christians who ENCOURAGE that kind of shallowness through encouraging its expressions. We Christians should reject CP speaking for us, because she's NOT prepared to—and that's painfully obvious. She should be embarrassing to our culture as a whole, and particularly embarrassing to we Christians. It's insane that we embrace her as our heroine spokesperson. THAT'S what I'm saying—and that's what I said.

  • Thomas Michalski

    Yeah so, I’m just gonna on a limb and say all this woman cares about is money and the book deal she thinks going to get out this…..she doesn’t really give two hoots about anything. Do you think she spent any portion of her life actually trying to educate herself either academically or morally and is legitimately trying to defend some moral value, or do you think she’s just a twit(albeit attractive one)who is trying to cash in on a situation that presented itself?

    I have to go with the latter.

  • Sad

    Isn't this the beginning of your comment to someone else's post, John?

    If it's not, I'm sorry; I must be losing my mind.

    Posted by John Shore on May 14, 2009 at 7:10 am

    Thuyen: Again: It’s not that she lied. It’s that she’s lyING. Presently. Now. Ongoing. She KEEPS lying. That disqualifies her as someone who is walking with God.

  • Sad

    John said: “Again: It’s not that she lied. It’s that she’s lyING. Presently. Now. Ongoing. She KEEPS lying. That disqualifies her as someone who is walking with God.”

    On one hand, I can’t disagree with that.

    On the other hand, you and I and every other Christian sins every day. And we KEEP sinning every day. Does that disqualify all of us?

    I’m most sad about this:

    Honestly, I just can’t see you allowing anyone commenting on your blog to remain unchallenged if THEY made such a sweeping spiritual judgment on any one individual — pastor, president, plumber, etc. She’s a 10-minute celebrity, she is receiving her punishment in the media for her hypocrisy, and is obviously immature as a believer.

    You usually have a more kind, protecting heart when it comes to judging others who are weaker.

  • http://helly.tripod.com Helly

    @Sad:

    First of all, the way you wrote your comment (caused by a misplaced colon, it appears), you quoted John as saying “Honestly, I just can’t see you allowing anyone commenting on your blog to remain unchallenged…. ” etc… which he didn’t say. He refuted that, not the previous one.

    Second of all, your comment: On the other hand, you and I and every other Christian sins every day. And we KEEP sinning every day. Does that disqualify all of us?

    … misses one key point. Yes, we sin everyday, but the difference is that we regret it. We admit we sinned. We repent. We ask God’s forgiveness. And we try not to do it again. From what I’ve read, that does not appear to be the case, hence the emphasis on her continuation of lying.

  • JJ

    Miss California was asked a question in a pageant.

    She answered it.

    Some people liked the answer, and some didn't.

    Those who didn't like the answer looked for ways to discredit her, which would discredit her statement.

    Those who liked the answer supported her right to free speech, and now are stuck with her baggage.

    Isn't that pretty much what happened?

  • Rochelle

    JJ

    Wow, that is the most concise unbiased nonjudgemental account of the situation I have read (including my own).

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    It's got virtually nothing to do with "free speech." The American right to free speech means the GOVERNMENT can't stop anyone from saying anything. Anyone who characterizes Cp's little drama as a matter of "free speech" is being utterly clueless.

    Again (and again, and again, and again): I had no problem whatsoever with CP's answer to the gay marriage question. None. I don't care about that. It's not interesting. What I DO care about is that she lied about the second wave of her photos that came to light: the ones with her nipples showing. She stated, over and over again, that she didn't KNOW those pictures were as revealing as they were. That's a lie. She knew those pictures were being taken, just as they were.

    Now, again, just to be perfectly clear (like that ever helps–but what the heck), the ONLY reason I care about CP's lying is not because I care one way or another if a very young woman lies about her past. That's boring; I couldn't care less. What I resent is that, in SPITE of CP's ongoing lies, Christians everywhere rushed to embrace CP and put her forward as someone in whom other Christians should take great pride. I resent people who share my belief system holding up to the rest of the world someone who is obviously and daily lying (and getting paid to do so). That's an affront and an embarrassment to me personally, and should be to all Christians.

  • JJ

    1. We Christians deal with this all the time with public people — politicians or celebrities of all kinds. We may support them in the beginning, based on what little we know, but we find out they are disingenuous — and their original statement of faith is not backed up by actions.

    2. I'm not sure that ALL the people who initially supported her STATEMENT are now vocally supporting HER, once her lies have come to light. Some are, but many aren't guilty of those charges.

  • Greta Sheppard

    Mitch . . Thank you for the exhortation to 'get out of the barn' . . . the cow has been overmilked!

    John . .we are waiting with baited breath for the rest of the story about your life!

    Don't answer the critics anymore . . . they only want to hang around for good argument.

  • Rochelle

    Actually Helly

    I listened to her on Focus on the Family, and although I think she has some growing up to do, she did say that she regretted posing for those pictures, that she would not do it again. Now whether she is sincere or just sorry because she got caught is not up to us so we still should not throw stones with or without having full knowledge. Can any of us honestly say that we would have always fessed up immediately and repented when we sinned if we had not been caught with our hand in the cookie jar? Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts us and we hear him but we often ignore him when we are doing something we enjoy. We are experts at rationalizing and justifying our sins when it is us and yet stand ready to stone someone else for the same offenses some of us are guilty of. Sometimes it takes a major wake-up call/crisis to get us to the point of acknowledging the sin for what it is and repenting. I am not justifying her or anyone’s sin.. just saying that but for the grace of God and maybe some spiritual maturity many of us would have done the same thing so we should not hold ourselves up as somehow being better than her, Many of us probably have done some of the same things but no one will know because we are not in the limelight like she is.

  • http://www.mitchsowden.info Mitch

    John, Keep going – this particular topic is utterly thrashed to death and points made both sides but don’t don’t stop posting new topics. Shoot those holy cows and religious spirits and let’s see things for what they are. Take care & God Bless you, Mitch

  • Greta Sheppard

    Lindsey, nothing wrong with your questions, honey . . . but the discussion is over for many of us.

    Our answers have been as varied as Dry Cereals on grocery store shelves. Arguments never edify!

    Let's look at some good things happening in our society…things the general Press and Media find no tintillation in. Watch Oprah this week . . . heroes are featured…brilliant, talented children with rare and beautiful gifts are showing their talents on her stage! . . . makes the heart sing! God has created such beautiful things in the world around us . . . think on these things!

  • Lindsey

    I’m late to this party, so I apologize for the questions.

    So what should those Christians (the ones who publicly supported her) have done *after* her lies came out?

    Should they have said:

    A. “We made a mistake. We shouldn’t have run to her defense. It turns out she is a liar.”

    B. “Her statement is one thing. Her personal behavior is another.”

    C. “She does not speak for Christians.”

    D. All of the above.

    E. None of the above. ________________

    I totally get it that you’re angry about Christians making an ongoing liar a “spokesperson for the faith.”

    But what’s the way out?

    Won’t Christians look even more heinous and hypocritical to the non-believing world if they abandon her once she’s been caught in lies?

  • http://www.johnshore.wordpress.com John Shore

    A and C. I don’t think Christians would ever look heinous and/or hypocritical if they insisted that those whom they’re championing renounce their public lies. If my child gets caught in a lie, I guide him into admitting that and apologizing for it. Confessing is what we Christians are supposed to do. There’s certainly no shame in Christians creating for other Christians a place and space for them to confess and renounce their purposeful, ongoing, and opportunistic lies. Instead of embracing, supporting, and aligning with CP—or, to put it more cynically—exploiting her, The National Organization for Marriage and Focus on the Family, for instance, should have encouraged her to come clean, or clearly distanced themselves from her for refusing to do so.

    Annnnnnnnnd I’m done with this topic.

  • http://www.victoryworldquest.com Dane

    ~Miss Hypocrite

    Carrie Prejean, the Miss California contestant, was correct about homosexuality! It is mortal filth

    and condemned by God's Word…but Prejean poses semi nude and topless EXPOSING HER

    BREASTS and revealing the bottom of her buttocks…then lied about it…and then she parades

    her body around in the Miss California Pageant EXPOSING HER PARTIAL BREASTS and

    buttocks in a sexual immoral swimsuit before the world!

    She is 100% a HYPOCRITE and she does NOT represent Jesus Christ nor a Christian!!

    Jesus said it this way, "Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery

    with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better

    for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into Hell." [Mt. 5:28,29]

    Spoken 100% in love,

    Dane Muhlig

    El Cajon, CA

    victoryworldquest.com

  • Chris

    Isn't the real judgment being passed against the "christian" media??? Which is where I humbly think it should be focused.

  • http://www.twitter.Com/Deggsy Derelict O'Brie

    The trouble I think is that some people seem to need to embrace the whole person on the basis of agreeing with them on one or a couple of subjects. Standards for places on pedestals seem to have stopped considerably in recent times.

  • http://namesake.wordpress.com Dale

    Ummm . . . it's a great picture, though, don't you think? I know you've been trying to get good pictures in all of your posts lately, John, and I have to admit, you worked it with this one.

  • Sarah

    Two things:

    1. I think that many people who have always been told how beautiful they are and a great deal of emphasis has been placed on physical beauty sometimes grow up to believe that anything they say or do will just automatically be accepted or, in this instance, believed … simply because they're just too precious NOT to believe or forgive. What a rude awakening it must be to find out that sometimes pretty just ain't enough and a little substance is called for.

    2. I don't know enough about her to know if she claims that she posed suggestively or provocatively PRIOR to her years of being a Christian or not. If someone makes a mistake and asks for forgiveness AND plots a course for higher ground, then all is forgiven, amen. But LYING instead of just owning up to the errors in judgment she may have had in the past isn't OK. I think this is the point you're making, Mr. Shore. And I agree. That isn't being judgmental of her … that's holding her to a standard that all Christians should embrace if they believe what the Bible says.

  • http://twitter.com/Deggsy Derek O'Brien

    (Thankfully I'm posting from my PC rather than my phone, so I can be Derek and not Derelict :-))

    I must agree with Sarah on the presumptions that the beautiful in this world face. A friend of mine who does stand-up once pointed out that the cliché about the tall and glamorous lacking personality and humour has some basis in fact. When you have good looks, you never have to develop qualities such as intelligence, personality, a sense of humour and civility to get attention from others.

  • http://www.twitter.Com/Deggsy Derelict O’Brien

    Or even dropped instead of stopped. Thanks anyway, predictive text…

  • http://www.cornerstone4sq.tv Kory Cochran

    Hey John,

    I guess I'm missing the hub-bub on the news about her as I thought it to be old news. This is the first I knew of her "modeling" past. With that said, if she really is continuing to lie and say she was underage when she was not, that she didn't know what she was doing in those pictures wasn't pornography, then I agree with you John. Of course, I too used to do a lot of things I shouldn't have and I am a work in progress. I celebrate the stance she took and fill she definitely was discriminated against for it in my opinion in the competition. Thing is, if we as Christians are not discriminated against, being treated unfairly and looked upon by the world as being weird and dangerous to a depraved lifestyle, then we need to do some self-evaluation. If she were telling the whole truth and sharing her faith in the media then I'd say she should be looked upon as a good example. Not coming with the truth even in the face of persecution, to me means that real repentance has not had it's full work, YET.

    -Kory


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