Married Christian Struggling With Gay Desires Responds to Comments

Today I received an email from the man who wrote the letter featured in yesterday’s “Letter From a Married Christian Man Privately Struggling with Homosexual Desires.” He asked if I would share it, and of course I agreed to. Here it is:

Hi John,

I can’t thank you enough for posting my letter, and for your faithful readers.

I don’t feel alone any longer!

I feel I can take away something from every comment, and put it to thought and see how it applies.

I can’t believe there are that many people who commented, who offered me so much hope, love, and spiritual wisdom. I was able to grab a nugget from each one of the responses, regardless of where they weighed in.

I have contacted a Christian counselor and I’m seeing him today. I’m still on the fence about telling my wife, although I want you and your readers to know that I’m considering it. I feel I can’t make that decision until I move past this first issue of figuring out or confirming who I am after all of this soul-searching.

Thanks John and commenters! Thanks for allowing God to use you. I have found a new sense of strength and outlook. I feel like I can begin to breathe. I cannot tell you what it feels like to breathe for the first time because I was able to get out what I’ve been experiencing and feeling, and to feel such warmth and compassion from individuals that I don’t know.

Thank you and all your readers as I continue this journey and find out what it means for me, and how God loves me and created me to be used by him with all of who I was before I met him, and with all of who I am, and am becoming.

Whoa. That is some crazily elegant final line. Awesome.

As many of you know all too well, blogging is a weird gig; it’s such a strange combination of vacuum and circus. I’ve almost given it up a million times. But it’s the sort of answers people sent in to this guy—thoughtful, spontaneous, deeply compassionate, sharing, refreshingly and even inspiringly intelligent—that make me glad I didn’t give it up. You guys really helped this man. On behalf of him, and everyone who read the fine care you showed him, I want to thank you.

About John Shore

John Shore (who, fwiw, is straight) is the author of UNFAIR: Christians and the LGBT Question, and three other great books. He is founder of Unfundamentalist Christians (on Facebook here), and executive editor of the Unfundamentalist Christians group blog.  (In total John's two blogs receive some 250,000 views per month.) John is also co-founder of The NALT Christians Project, which was written about by TIME,  The Washington Post, and others. His website is JohnShore.com. You're invited to like John's Facebook page. Don't forget to sign up for his mucho-awesome newsletter. If you shop at Amazon, help support John by entering the site through this link right here--Amazon will then send John 3-4% of the cost of anything you buy before exiting the site again.

 

  • Argy-bargy

    God bless you Letter Writer!

    And God bless you too, John, for providing a forum for this to happen. It might not–in fact likely wouldn't have–happened without you.

  • Marie

    Thank you for trusting all of us with something so sacred, Letter Writer. You remain in my thoughts, with strength and Love.

    Peace!

  • Jenny

    YAY!! I'm so happy you got a Christian counselor! And so fast too. That is definitely a step in the right direction, and I hope that he/she will be able to help you. Maybe this will turn out to be something that when you look back on it, it was a dark time you were going through, but you came out of it a better person. Closer to God, a better husband, and a better father. I wish you all the best!

  • Dan

    I'm a little concerned about the "Christian" counselor. The counseling he receives will depend on the counselor's views on homosexuality. My former pastor was a Christian counselor and he told his homosexual clients that God loved the homosexual, but hated the "sin". He believes that homosexuals must remain abstinate and that homosexuality can be "cured". Hopefully the counselor he sees will know that homosexuality is not a choice and there is no cure – and that God loves him nomatter what. And that depriving himself of a relationship will ultimately make his life miserable.

    I never counseled with my former pastor, but I want to let you know that I am in fact a gay man that was married for 24 years – 24 years of making my wife's life miserable because I couldn't show her the physical and emotional affection she deserved. I always believed it was wrong to be gay and ultimately was going to kill myself after our kids were grown, which is why I didn't tell her sooner – I never wanted my wife nor my kids to know because I was ashamed of it. Fortunately for me, my wife left me before I did the deed. I actually did "come out" to her a few months prior to her leaving. But now we are both happy in our new lives – she is remarried and I have a male partner with whom I'm in a monogamous relationship. And my family has accepted me with open arms which I'm thankful for.

    • http://chrisandevie.com Jonesy

      Dan, brother…

      How is struggling with – is it all right to call it "lust"? – for another man (whether you are married or not) different than struggling with – lust – for another woman (whether you are married or not)? I would be interested in your opinion on this, I have a story similar to yours in my immediate family, and would appreciate it if you could articulate your perspective on relationships in general (b/c of the comment you made – "depriving himself of a relationship").

      -And yours too John Shore – (hope this is an appropriate place for such inquiry)

      • http://dianer.blogspot.com/ DR

        Because one type of lust is often characterized as intrinsically evil and if one even *feels* it – according to many Christians – one is condemned by God for eternity – according to some christians – in a very specific way.

      • Allen

        Hiya Jonesy,

        I'd say the main difference is, a man who finds himself married and lusting after another woman can talk to his pastor about it, and it's just about lust. We can assume this is a fairly common subject for married men and pastors to have, and most pastors know how to approach the subject, and most married people figure out how to deal with it. This man, if he talked to his particular pastor, would be talking not about lust but about eternal damnation, abomination in the sight of God, etc. etc.

        • Tim

          I don't think that is necessarily an honest representation of what this man's pastor would tell him. You can make any assumptions you want, but unless you spoke first hand with this man's pastor, your version of the story is your own fiction.

          I know quite a few pastors who would never use such mean-spirited nomenclature given that exact scenario. While all of these pastors I'm speaking of, believe that homosexual orientation is certainly not a choice, they do believe that actively engaging that orientation IS a choice. That being said, they would not distinguish gay lust or sex outside of marriage as anymore astray from God's desire for us, than hetero lust or sex outside of marriage.

          The major sticking point for Bible believing Christians, is that ANY sex outside of the Scriptural model of marriage is fornication. Putting all of the OT texts and the Pauline doctrines aside, Jesus is recorded as saying that marriage is what it has been from the beginning (Matt 19:4-6) One man, one woman which God brought together and ordained as one flesh. Adultery and fornication (Matt 15:19) seeks to tear that estate apart. Even if the states and federal government legalizes same-sex marriage, man's laws cannot biblically legitimize it. Hopefully, all things being equal, eventually will bring peace. But I can't help but think that the only inequity remaining after the complete national legitimacy of SSM, will be what the church biblically believes. I hope I'm wrong. I guess time will tell.

      • Dan

        Hey Jonesy,

        It’s not just about lust – it’s about relationship. And I did not mean to sound like I was encouraging the pursuit of a relationship while he is married – not at all. But in my opinion gay relationships are to be treated the same as heterosexual relationships – the only downfall at the current time is that homosexual marriage is not legal in many states. What most people don’t consider is that the “lust” or physical attraction to someone is a big part of determining who you fall in love with. When I was married, I did love my wife and cared for her deeply, but I don’t think I was really “in love” with her. The physical attraction wasn’t there. The sad thing is I knew I was gay before I married her, but due to not having anyone to talk to about it – I presumed that it was something that would change once I was with her physically. Well needless to say that’s not what happened. So although I did struggle with “lust” for men while I was married to my wife, I never physically cheated on her.

    • Leslie

      Wow. That's a pretty happy ending for what could have had multiple different tragic endings.

  • http://whatsleftinthechurch.blogspot.com Geoffrey

    To the letter writer –

    You are welcome. Thank YOU for taking that first, most difficult, step of trying to find someone, somewhere, to whom you could turn. I can only speak for myself, but I am truly humbled by the fact that this little black thing on my desk gives me the privilege of reading your words and reaching out to you in Christian love. Whatever happens, hold on to those responses as evidence that there are people who are rooting for you.

    John –

    Thank you for sharing this. I, too, have felt like chucking the whole thing many, many times. This single episode in which a whole bunch of strangers reached out to help up a brother in need has rejuvenated my belief that it is a moment like this – rare, but not nonexistent – that make all the other stuff worthwhile. Thanks for sticking with it, and thanks for a forum for this gentleman to use to toss a lifeline to the world. You are a blessing.

  • http://chrisandevie.com Jonesy

    Thanks for sharing this L-Dub. The "church" as well as the christian community needs to think through this hardcore – and needs to be able to communicate love to people seeking the Lord, regardless of their issues – we all have those, but some are more or less "socially acceptable" -and THAT is what needs to change.

    “The Church is a Whore.. But She's still my Mother.”

    -St. Augustine

    If we spend any amount of time in it… we're going to be hurt by the church. Sad, but true. It shouldn't happen, but we need to have grace for each other. We can't fix the church, but we can fix ourselves. I will continue to pray for you L-Dub, you are loved, and am thankful for your openness, and that you are encouraged, and seeking the Lord, not abandoning the church.

    • http://dianer.blogspot.com/ DR

      Why can't we fix the church? The church is us. When we fix us, we fix the church.

  • Susan

    Letter Writer,

    It is wonderful that you are moving ahead, and I'm so glad that you are feeling more able to "breathe." Many people are praying for you and being virtual & spiritual cheerleaders for you too.

    Always know you have a place to go, even if it's just by turning your computer in the "on" position.

    If this counselor, makes you feel ashamed, or if it does work out well, please, please, keep looking for a therapist until you find the right one. This is not a one-shot deal.

    Go letter writer, go!

    • Susan

      *if it does NOT work out well.

  • Mindy

    This blows me away. People, do you realize the power of what happened here? I am sitting here with tears running down my face.

    Tildeb, if you are reading this, this is definitely part of the power of that connection I was talking about.

    :)

    To all of you – hugs.

  • Ace

    I’m glad our Mr Letter Writer found something worthwhile to him in that morass of comments.

    Your blog is truly a strange place John, but a good reminder that God makes prefectly good use of some bizarre colors of play-doh to build His kingdom. :P

    I hope Mr Letter Writer finds what he needs and wish him and his family the best. :)

  • Anonymous Pastor

    I did not decide to participate in the discussion because I ask for sympathy or decided to come out. There is nothing to come out of. I tried to convey another aspect of the discussion, which is men (and women) who struggle with sexual identity issues and not see it as an either/or situation. Truth is, I could have been gay. Truth is, the issue will never go away. Truth is, I made a choice to live a life that I am convinced will please God, and not my own desires.

    I did disclose aspects of my struggle with my wife. Before we got married. She accepts me as I am and knows I really love her. Those i didn't disclose was because it became irrelevant through our relationship.

    Sometimes the issue returns, but most of the time I can fully devote myself to our relationship.

    The responses posted above show that most people is still stuck in either/or mode. Life is about choices. With some you can easily live. With others, you struggle.

    If I disclosed my struggle after years of marriage, I would have destroyed a healthy relationship. That's why I think the first letter writer should think twice before just spilling the beans.

    I know quite a few men who also struggled with the question whether they are gay, and decided against the choice. They also are married, faithful husbands and live with the choice that their sexuality is reserved for a woman, even though it culd have been different.

    My heart goes out to everyone who read this and discovered, as I did, that liberal fundamentalists also exist. I have been condemned because it was decided beforehand that a persons struggling with his/her sexuality MUST be gay. Perhaps they are, but why isn't there room for a what if scenario? What if that person chose to live a different life? Why is it so incomprehensible?

    By judging me on the basis of my choice not to be gay, as other fundamentalists judge people who indeed make that choice, we all throw stones and live black-white lives wihout real compassion, love and understanding.

    I therefore apologise for further confusing the issue.

    • http://dianer.blogspot.com/ DR

      All of this is so complicated and I'm quite sure than none of us are equipped to understand the complexity. And the hard part about the internet is we all fill in the gaps with our own beliefs and needs and hurts of our own.

      Be well and I'm glad that you offered what you did. It is quite clear you wanted to be heard and also let this writer know you're not alone. I'm so sorry this is so hard. I can't imagine. I hope you find the still waters you need.

    • chellee

      I truly respect and honor your "take" on this issue. We are complex creatures indeed and the "black and white" scenarios rarely play themselves out in a perfect fashion.

      MY THOUGHTS on this ENTIRE subject……all of it's aspects from all of it's angles is that the goal here is all about honorably walking out our lives……and navigating through our various struggles….with dignity and INTEGRITY…..being TRUE to OUR OWN SELVES……and then I believe we will all reflect worthy lives!!

      I TRULY enjoy the fantastic feeling I get when someone comes along and expands my heart's beliefs and my minds ability to widen it's boundaries to include more and more truth, and to see with clearer vision as I look around this great big wonderful world. And one thing I know, is, this IS a great big wonderful world with lots of GREAT BIG WONDERFUL hearts inside of VERY BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE!

      Thank you for expanding my understanding! Well done!

      I don't know about anyone else, but I'm experiencing greater clarity, NOT more confusion. :)

    • StraightGrandmother

      What you risk Anonymous Pastor is that one day you will run into a man who will sweep you off your feet. A man you can't resist, a man who touches your arm and you are electrified, a man you fall in love with and can't let go. I don't think your stoicism is heroic, I think it is kind of sad, I feel sorry for you. When you say that if you disclose to your wife your true self that you will destroy a healthy relationship, I kind of question if it really is a healthy relationship, maybe it is(?).

      People who are married can have one of them become physically unable to have traditional intercourse. I would assume that the one with the problem would get creative to provide for similar sexual satifaction of their spouce. So that seems kind of similar to what you describe about a healthy but maybe not a robust sexual relationship with your wife. But it is really not because satisfying sex is as much in our heads as in our bottoms, and your head isn't into it although your heart is.

      I worry about you, your letter really troubles me. I wish you the very best.

  • John Blatzheim

    I hope you find hope and love in your struggle to understand yourself writer! But, reading your bit about finding a 'Christian therapist' I have to warn you: I went to just such a therapist when I was about 16, and he went down the road of 'repetitive therapy.' This is also known as 'conversion therapy.' That treatment turned out to be incredibly damaging and hurtful for me. Even though my sexuality was obvious to me not only after, but during that therapy, it still took me years and years to deal with the stigma and hate that therapist ingrained in me.

    Just know this, any therapist worth his salt will recognize that your sexual orientation is not something that you chose and that it is unchangeable. Given those realizations he or she will work with you to help you accept and love yourself as you are. Any attempt to change you or make you into an 'ex-gay,' as many who buy that line of reasoning call it, should send up red flags to you.

    I hope you find support and love in your endeavor to deal with this unfortunate situation. Good luck, and god bless.

    • StraightGrandmother

      John, I think you are wise to urge caution about a Christian Counselor. The letter writer would do well to google the words "Ex gay" or "Ex-gay" and have his eyes open wide when he starts counseling. In fact the American Psychological Association has it in their policy of appropriate therapy that couselors should not encourage nor strive to have a patient change their sexual identity. Even when the patient is asking for help to overcome the gay a licensed practiioner, according to their standards, should not pursue that line of therapy as it is very damaging to the patient. I dont' ahve any experience with this just showing the facts in order to do good.

      I simply wish for the origional letter writer to find peace and love and contentment.

  • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com Ric Booth

    I think I love this church. Yeah.

    • Susan

      I kinda do, too, RB.

    • http://luwandi.wordpress.com Beth Luwandi

      I know I love it. And I can't tell you how healing that is. Thank you all and thank God.

  • Air1JB

    I knew I could trust y’all with his concerns! Thanks!

    JB

  • JFE

    I think it's the responsibility of therapists, Christian or otherwise, to recognize the difference between heterosexually married people who have homosexual desires and single people who are gay and lesbian and wish to be joined to someone of their same sex. For the married person, he has made a vow to his spouse, has lived with her for many years, and is only now admitting his same-sex desire. There are options in this case. If both parties wish to keep their vows with this new realization, then I think they should be encourage in their decision. Ted and Gayle Haggard are a couple who have done this. Ted does not characterize gay people as evil, but he and his wife have decided to stay together. I wish Ted and Gayle would take this one step further, and encourage single gay and lesbian people to enter into loving and monogamous relationships.

  • MarkF

    To the man who wrote the original letter…can I be blunt? Please, get over yourself. Stop being so dramatic. This is NOT a process to find out "who you are." Period. I came out as a homosexual back in 1978. I came back into the Church in 2008. I know of what I speak.

    No one IS a homosexual. It's not who you are. It's what you do. It's just a temptation like any other temptation. I have a tendency to be lazy. That's not WHO I am. It's what I do. Or in this case, what I don't do.

    Don't tell your wife. Please. You are so far from that point. Please, listen to me as someone who lived for over thirty years as an out homosexual. You may or may not like what I'm going to say. You may or may not believe me or understand it. But I've met many, many people in your state before. You're just starting on a very long process. You're not ready by a long shot to talk to her. At this point you'd just be adding more confusion to an already messy situation. Telling her may make you feel better. For a second. It's going to make her feel terrible. For a long time. Then she's going to make you feel even worse. Please, for the love of God, don't tell her. Not now. Not for at least a year. Maybe not ever.

    Don't believe ONE word you hear about what homosexuality is like from pro-homosexual groups or people. The whole lifestyle is one big lie. It is a pagan god. People who serve that god are totally obliged to it. They would never tell you the truth about it. Some know what it's like and love it for its perversion. Some don't know about it and in their blindness will tell you all sorts of whoppers. Homosexuality is an illusion. It offers one thing. It delivers something totally different. I lived it myself. I've known thousands of others. It starts out relatively OK. It doesn't end that way. If a man starts out with homosexuality at age 20, by age 40 he's lost in a world of promiscuity, kink or loneliness. By age 40, every gay man is either massively promiscuous, massively kinky or massively lonely.

    I'd be VERY wary of groups that promise to cure or change your homosexuality. They can in fact harm you, through your own internal self hatred. Perhaps for some, they can change somewhat. I don't know. You can't demand of God to do anything. If you could, then no one would die from cancer.

    To cut it short, the inclination to homosexuality is no different from an inclination to get angry a lot. It's no worse. It's not better.

    Try to get over this cycle of self-hatred. Part of the self hatred is a kind of masochistic narcissism that I've seen so many times. Too many times. I've seen guys who seem to get off on beating themselves up. Guilt combined with pleasure over feeling guilty that feeds a feeling of being special for being so "perverted." What you're going through is just a temptation to sin like everyone has. Underline what I just said.

    What you need, as I've found, is to find that part of you that felt ignored by your father when you were a kid. What you need is to find that part of you that felt left out of the world of the other males when you were a kid. That's what this is all about. It's not genetic. Period. Find a good male friend, someone you can do things with. Go camping. Go fishing. Or just hang out. Make sure he's straight though. This won't "cure" you. And please, stop beating yourself up so much. The self-hatred is NOT coming from society. It's coming from the hurt little boy.

    If you want to talk, my e-mail address is ruck0752@yahoo.com.

    • sam

      MarkF just because you can't accept your self-loathing hate against your own homosexuality doesn't mean you're right about other homosexuals – obviously you're bitter and you didn't find a good man so you're a bit of man hater. We're oriented and born homosexual, straight people didn't choose to be straight and I didn't choose to be homosexual, which I've been since I was 3.

      And homosexuality is prevelent everywhere in Nature. You are another sorry sorry self-pitying ass who hasn't gotten over yourself, you will never satisfy nor be satisfied by a woman and you are obviously jaded against all homosexual men. Probably because you kept going out and meeting people who weren't looking to form relationships. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you tell someone that the self-hatred isn't coming from society???!!! When did you first hate yourself as a homosexual (you still are a self-hating homosexual by the way, take the beam out of your own eye "ring ring, Kettle? this is pot.") – probably when society informed you to hate yourself. It IS coming from society it's been drummed into our heads every hour of every day in the public debate on every media for the last 50 years give me an f'n break MarkF- you are another bully MarkF – and your judging others by your ignorant standards has nothing to do with this man's truer needs. People will feel good about themselves when you stop condemning their actions, which are none of your business. You may pretend to be helpful but in the end you will die a self-hating homosexual regardless of your going "back" into the church. That place you call a church, like calling oneself a conservative, what people are liable to interpret in the Bible – well it ain't necessarily so.

      So dude, put a sock in it; shut the hell up.

  • http://mine4thetaking.blogspot.com/ FreeFox

    Hello MarkF. I seem to remember that peeps uncovered you as a vile, bigoted, probably lying psycho in some other thread, though I may have you confused with some other… I don't have to repeat all that, do I? And I suppose, I should join that chorus. After all, I am an unrepentant queer, and damn angry persector of hate-mongering cure-'em-or-damn-'em "Christians". And part of me wants to kick your shins. Real bad.

    But then, you did get me thinking. I am queer. Have been my whole life. I've known I was into boys when I was eight, and even then I recognized that as something that had been a part of me before I even had the vaguest understanding of what sex was. Of course it has a lot to do with sex, that's why they call it sexual orientation, but for me it has always been much more. You, confused and anger-filled "born again" str8, are probably the last who can understand this, but any less-confused natural str8 bloke (and, I assume, lady) will know what I mean when I say that it is a part of the sort of man I am. A str8 person is just str8 when they're banging a member of the opposite sex either. They are always str8. I've had sex with girls – I mean to say, I did try the other side. And yeah, I have my daddy-issues. And mummy-issues, I suppose. And society-issues. And they may all be tied into this, they all make up a little bit of who I am after all.

    But then, that's me.

    I tried to keep up with what scientists think makes a queer person queer for a while, but since I cannot begin to pretend to understand that I have the faintest inkling of a foggy idea how they reach their conclusions, I've given up on trying to have a real oppinion on the subject. I do understand that there is smart peeps all over the world having very different ideas about this. Some think it's genetics, some think it's hormons during some stage of the pregnancy, some think it's psychological, and some think it's some weird temptation. Well, the last bit really, really doesn't make much sense, since from the purely physical point of view, sex doesn't feel any better if it's done with a chick or with a bloke. Sure, a blow job feels different from vaginal intercourse from buggering someone from being buggered from petting, etc. But except for a few combinations, most peeps can do most things with each other. And once you discover the fascinating world of adult toys, well, anything goes. On the other hand, it's a lot harder to FIND a fellow fag than some str8 person who's willing to put out. It is much riskier, because if you hit on the wrong person you might get your face smashed in, or you can suffer all manner of humiliation or persecution by society. If you just want some funky fun with your private parts, you don't need to traverse the homosexual highway.

    But all the other explanations, well, who knows. Who is to say that it has to be the same reason for everybody? I mean, as long as you don't want to forgoe intimacy with someone else entirely, you've got to take either those with your own mix of X/Y-chromosomes or those with another set. So it isn't inconcievable that many roads lead to similar outcomes, right?

    Maybe you really desired men cuz you had daddy issues. Maybe someone goes for his own gender cuz his mum had some hormonal imbalance. Maybe some of us really have a gay gene. Maybe you are really happier now, that you dealt with your childhood trauma, and went back to lusting after chicas. But maybe some don't have that choice. Just cuz it worked out that way for you, doesn't mean it will for the nameless letter-writer. You took years to come to grips with your problems going your way. Let him get counceling. Let him think about the fact that the ex-gay-way went horribly wrong for a lot of gays who couldn't ex, and to keep that in mind when he talks to his Christian councelor. (Unless you seriously want to claim there is some world-spanning infernal conspiracy amongst practicioners in the mental health field.)

    Life is complicated and messy and rarely has clean solutions. This isn't mathematics. Maybe abstinence and life in a Christian community is the best solution for some. Maybe coming out an fighting for your right to be accepted is the best way for someone else. Who is to say what is truly best? It is mostly some balancing act, and some trial and error, and living with the choices you make. Even if the choice is to not live with some previous choice but to try again.

    I think Mr. Shore is right that honesty is usually the best policy, not only to others but also to yourself. Even if you honestly admit that you just don't know right now. Lies and secrets have a way of eroding love and friendship, even if they are not found out.

    But for us, who are talking to someone we barely know, about subjects that we at best have some experiences of our own with and maybe a few anecdotes from friends, let's not pretend we have clear answers to these sorts of problems. That, too, is dishonest and very unfair.

    • http://mine4thetaking.blogspot.com/ FreeFox

      Kahretsin! I tried hard to keep my spelling mistakes at a minimum, but alas. Well, I hope it is still legible… "persector" was of course meant to be "persecutor"… as for the rest… sorry…

      • JenellYB

        Yeah, I have more spelling and typo problems when I’m on a roll fired up about whatever it is I’m writing about, too. Understandable. I think you expressed it quite well.

  • sam

    this is what I don't understand, never hear anyone talk about in the media:

    The bible says 2 men shall not lie together as with a women for it is an abomination, the bible says nothing about 2 women lying as with a man.

    The bible says a woman having sex before marriage is an abomination. men having sex before marriage was still expected.

    The bible says divorce is an abomination.

    The bible says masterbation is an abomination.

    Theologians say these are Jewish laws for jewish people, made because Jews believed at the time that all of life was in the man's sperm and to spill it anywhere but a vagina was murder.

    2 men together = mutual masterbation and no vagina = murder

    divorce – obstruction to procreation.

    masterbation = murder

    They didn't know in Bible times that the woman carries an egg, the other part to life and the Jewish race was being exterminated and babies were top priority to avoid extinction of their race.

    If all these abominations are equally abominable and there is nothing in the bible that says they aren't, then, is it not hypocrisy to form a hate movement against homosexual men and not divorce, or agains a woman having sex before marriage, and against everyone who practices masterbation? Where are the hate movements for these equal abominations?!!

    This is the hypocrisy of hate. Where is the hate movement against straight men who lust for homosexual photos and lesbian depictions of naked women together engaged in homosexual acts? Where is the "righteous" indignation from the "evangelical" right wing and offense taken, where is the hate movement against straight men's homosexuality?

    Gay men are villified and scapegoated. I am of the belief that we are true to our natures, like the 1500 categorized species of animals that all have been observed to have homosexuality in their species, not rarely but naturally occuring daily/year round and even dominating some species, as in the case of animals like dolphins, orcas whales, giraffes, swans, buzzards, penguins and binobo chimpanzees where the social interactions require homosexual stimulus, which has a purported calming effect and maintains harmony in the group.

    So why are we considered unnatural when in fact, humans would be an anamoly in Nature if we didn't have homosexual members?! When will the scientist speak out on this truth?

    When will it be recognized that by keeping with our nature, homosexuals are infact, Nature's biggest source of population control in the animal kingdom, keeping herds from over-grazing and yes, people from over-populating the earth? Nothing says birth control like a 60 year old virgin male.

    And one more thing about the Emperor's clothes – I get it that there really are "straight" guys out there, but truthfully, I've kept to myself and still got hit on by more married men than all the gay men combined.

    A lot of "straight" men are liars or they're just not talking – but their wives are.

    When will men take back our right to be exclusively homosocial with other men?! Where is the

    men's-only hut in the middle of the "village"? Men need our man time as much as women and children need men and we are letting women taunt us with their favorite weapon of choice, castration via homophobia to the point that we're allowing women to turn us into pussies – where are the cajonas? not even a men's movement to retaliate against women's jealousy and disapproval.

    To hell with women – I'm sick of male bashing, I'm sick of the limits to our freedom to be who we are as men.

    Like Jesus (who was a fisher of men) said: "Let he who can, marry". He also said: "He who speaks against the least of my brethren speaks against me" also, "Judge not lest ye be judged". "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".

    What if we make hate unacceptable, bullying banned, like saying the word "FUCK" out loud in church, instead of cultural pressure to hate gays, why not pressure to make hate unacceptable and resolve to JUST take care of each other instead?

    Less thumping, more reading and understanding your bible especially when Jesus spoke. let men be men; we are sexual beings and we do need to express affection openly with one another even if it's clothing required, we still should be allowed to hug, hold hands, kiss each other because WE HAVE THOSE FEELINGS FOR eachother. Enough with the double standard, I see women on tv kissing eachother every day now. Why NOT men?

    That would calm a lot of this anger towards homosexual men, and resentment towards women. We would be a harmonous society if we just adopted a live and let live support for each other regardless of our "sins".

    Who is with me?

    • StraightGrandmother

      Sam I also take issue with this point, "The bible says masterbation is an abomination"

      I don't see how this is possible when God clearly made the arms just long enough to reach the genetiles. I got that off of a science blog and giggle every time I get a chance to use it.

      • http://mine4thetaking.blogspot.com/ FreeFox

        Brilliant! ^_^

  • Celic7172008

    Wow, ok I think everyone just needs to take a chill pill. We have people on both extremes bashing each other and that is not what this particular thread was ment for. although I do believe homosexuality is a choice I don’t go around condemning people for it. Everyone here as put Bible verses up and completely taken them out of context to support their side of the argument whether that is for or against the issue. I would address the issue of homosexuality in nature by going back to Genesis.

    Sin had not entered into the world unto man’s fall, and when Adam AND Eve, it was both of them and you cannot blame just one of them, gave into temptation it didn’t just make man fall but the entire creation that God made. So that means the earth and everything in the earth, animals, plants, the land, etc.

    Now we have to remember that we have a REAL enemy in this world who tries to take all of us astray and he is ALWAYS at work. We cannot deny the spiritual side to this battle and only recognize the physical side. Paul says that thoughts make strongholds in our minds and it is through these strongholds that we entertain these desires. Now I’m not saying who’s wrong and who’s right, but before you go slinging Bible verses at each other make sure you’re not letting your views and biases cause you to misinterpret scripture.

    It is true that Jesus said not to judge lest ye be judged and certainly that happens on a regular everyday basis, but that still doesn’t give you the right to judge the judger or you too are disobeying scripture.

    To the letter writer, after reading all these comments I say good luck…I’ve always been told to eat the straw and spit out the sticks and there is a lot of truth in every comment, but lets face, none of us know it all and all of us will wildly defend our believes. I offer you much courage and strength as you continue to search for the answers you seek . God Bless!


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