When Should Christians Start Pointing Fingers?

Yesterday on my Facebook page a reader left this note:

I would be really interested to hear your take on this issue: Should Christians ever worry about/act to curb others’ sins, or should we be too busy worrying about our own sins to bother with another’s? What is the practical application of the speck of dust/plank argument and “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” in our modern world? Are there times where we should finger-point, or is it always against God to worry about others’ sins before our own?

When it comes to people, I have a general rule that I find almost universally applicable, and invariably instructive. It’s an axiom that over the course of my life I have developed and honed, one that never fails to bring me the perspective I need to understand my proper role relative to whatever might be going on with another person—especially when it comes to evaluating the overall or conditional state of another person’s morality. With regards to others, my go-to truth is this:

People are stupid.

I really must get that stitched and framed. Oh, well. So many way to offend guests in my home; so little time.

But the point is … well, that’s it: People are not so much with the swift. And thus do I stand firm upon my general conviction that I have no more interest in stopping another person from doing whatever unhelpful, self-destructive thing they might be doing than I do trying to affect the weather.

I can’t affect the weather. It’s too big. There’s too much going on there. It’s beyond my control.

Weather’s gonna do what weather’s gonna do. I can enjoy it; I can flee from it; I can shake my fist and curse at it. But I can’t change it.

I am content to let people do whatever they’re doing, simply because I know I have no choice in that. People are forever acting in ways that directly oppose their own best interests. You can’t change that. There is nothing in this world more powerful than human will, and everything people do is a function of their purest will. People sin because they want to sin, and that’s a train you can’t stop. Try, and all that happens is that they keep going, and you get creamed.

The one time where we are morally obliged to stop someone from sinning, though, is if their sinning is hurting, or violating the will, of a weaker person. Then not getting involved constitutes a sin on our part, and screw that.

So that’s the measure for determining how involved we get with someone else’s sinning: Is their sinning really hurting anyone but themselves. If it’s not, wave to the train as it goes by. If it is, consider the person being hurt. Could they protect themselves? Unless they’re a child or infirm, the answer is usually yes, they could stop themselves from being victimized—but, for whatever reason, they’re not. Then wave to their train as it goes by, too.

But if someone is being truly victimized, you have to step in. You can’t stop a person from hurting themselves, but you must do what you can to stop them from hurting someone who is defenseless.

So, in summary: Person hurting themselves? Let it go. Person truly victimizing another? Do what you can to stop it.

Person being stupid? That’s only human.

If hell is real, then love has no meaning
As Jesus said: "Family, Schmamily. As long as there's pie."
To the Dickens with me this year
Mary: "How do I feel, Joseph? Pregnant. Very pregnant."
About John Shore

I’m in the final stages of finishing a novel. If you’d like to be kept up on what’s happening with that, subscribe to my personal newsletter (which is different from subscribing to my blog—and is how, increasingly, I communicate with my readers). I send out my newsletter using MailChimp (so your email address remains safe and secure); I would never sell your email address or use it for junk mail; unsubscribe with the click of the button. (May 9, 2015)

  • Marie

    ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!!! And perfectly timed. THANK YOU!!!!
    Favorite part: “But if someone is being truly victimized, you have to step in. You can’t stop a person from hurting themselves, but you must do what you can to stop them from hurting someone who is defenseless.”
    Namaste ♥

  • Erin

    Thank you so much for answering my question! And loving my bumper sticker. Everyone will wonder why I’m smiling like a fool today. :-D I think where things get muddled is in the “gay sex issue”, because reasonable people, even if they believe it is an abomination, recognize that it doesn’t really hurt anyone. Unreasonable people say it affects you, me, our kids, aliens on Alpha Centauri, and the moral fabric of our society. They find loopholes so they can say it victimizes others. But, being as their bigotry *does* victimize others, I suppose that makes it okay for me to point out to them that they are being bigots? (Sweetly and calmly, of course!!)?

  • Erin

    Also, can anyone tell me how to set up an “official” profile with a picture? I think I’m going to be hanging around here for a while. ;-)

  • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com Ric

    Great response, John.

    Now, if only…

  • Erin

    One more thing quick–”Christians” is misspelled in the title.

  • http://myfanwe.wordpress.com Meg

    Erin, if you click at the top right hand side of the area where the comments are displayed, where it says Disqus and then click on Disqus you can create a Disqus account and add a profile picture to it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brett-Stroup/100000677076962 Brett Stroup

    Excellence as usual and I think many people apply such logic when it comes to the world. However it seems we are adept at deluding ourselves into thinking that the rules are somehow different when comes to friends, family or the brethren (other Christians). There is some basis for this in that sometimes those who know us are more willing to take in criticism or advice from us than the would be from a complete stranger, but not always.
    I’ve read a great deal of Anton LaVey, admittedly not really recognized as one of God’s chosen writers but he offers this bit of guidance “Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked”. This has been quite helpful to me in my personal relationships. At the very least it’s kept me from being a complete [insert colorful metaphor here] in regards to a friends behavior.

  • Anonymous

    Oh, MAN, thanks for catching that. Changed. Whew. Nice! Good job!

  • Anonymous

    What? If only you could learn to wave with your feet, after both arms are exhausted?

  • Freda

    “wave to the train as it goes by” PRICELESS! I can agree to a certain point, but how do you measure what damage someone’s sin can cause others? One of the reasons that Christians come down on porn, for instance, is that they feel it affects many people (even if only in a small way).

    NOTE TO EVERYONE WHO TENDS TO GO INTO KNEE JERK REACTIONS: This is a PHILOSOPHICAL question. I’m not necessarily condemning porn, homosexuality, or gluttony (which is a Biblical sin but one we all indulge in at times).

  • Anonymous

    Yeah, “if asked” is key. In so many other pieces I’ve made that very important distinction, so thought I’d forgo working it into this piece, but, yeah: that’s the key, right there. Being asked changes everything.

    Um. Anton LaVey? As in, the American founder and “high priest” of the Church of Satan, author of “The Satanic Bible.” That’s the guy you’re referring to as, “Not really recognized as one of God’s chosen writers”? Do you think?

  • Brian Burton

    Christians should never point finger’s, they don’t have the right. They can instead try pointing the way which can only mean that Christ is the way. I would say that Christ did not die to save people, but to teach people how to save each other.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Z7U426RW6CEZGIVNLA7GTCGS7M Bryan K

    one other very important thing: Besides people being stupid. . . that implies they are definitely wrong, but besides if they are wrong or not, the most important reason one should not try to “fix” or “change” or “help” others is that people will only be helped if they are trying to help themselves first. No matter if it’s a universal “that thing they are doing is wrong and bad and destructive” or if it’s just your opinion that the thing is bad and it would be better if they did it your way, it just won’t work. It’s different if someone says: “I’m trying to change this about myself, please help me.” and they are working to change it. But if you just try to even inform them they are wrong it will likely have the opposite effect and just make them mad.

    One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned is almost always the best thing one can do with a bad situation is help themselves first, and make sure one is holding themselves accountable to fix whatever they actually control about the situation and help others if/when they want it.

    This is honestly the biggest problem I have with any type of proselytization. I know that those doing it are trying to be helpful and save their loved ones or often perfect strangers, but again, it’s not helpful if the people don’t want the help.

    Of course I also totally agree with John’s assessment about stepping in if someone is truly being victimized (though that too can sometimes backfire if the victim doesn’t cooperate).

  • Anonymous

    I would say you commented without reading the post….

  • Marcelo

    Two bloody brilliants posts in as many days. You should polish off 459,000 word ghost-written works and be sleep deprived more often!

    I can see that reasonable minds might differ, as Freda comments above, about whether some sins are “victimless,” but that’s the point idn’t? It’s a dangerous door to open which leads to the “but all sin victimizes you…I must saaaave you from yourself! Repent!”

    What about all that reproaching-your-brother talk in the Bible? Does that give one license?

    *strokes chin*

  • Ace

    I don’t think we EVER have the right to judge another person, and definitely need to step in if somebody is being harmed by another’s actions.

    That said, I don’t think it’s ALWAYS out of bounds to step in when somebody is destroying him or herself.

    Yes, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink, but if somebody has a really destructive problem (drug addiction, anorexia, alcoholism, suicidal, etc) I think trying to intervene is Not Such a Bad Idea. Yea, it might not work. You might very well get splattered all over the proverbial tracks, but sometimes you HAVE to at least *try*.

    If it doesn’t work, fine, step back and wave to the train as it de-rails and wash your hands of it, but there you have it, my 2 cents anyway.

    Of course I get your point regarding value judgments on this like people’s relationships and sex lives, definitely should never get involved where it’s none of your business even if you don’t agree with someone’s behavior, but some situations do call for intervention out of compassion.

  • Erin_carpentier

    If it makes you feel better, I almost called you my “favorite blooger” on Facebook. :)

  • http://www.psyankycrazy.com Lisa

    I believe as long as someone isn’t hurting anyone else, beliefs and comments should be get to ones self. thanks for a great article.

  • http://www.psyankycrazy.com Lisa

    I believe as long as someone isn’t hurting anyone else, beliefs and comments should be get to ones self. thanks for a great article.

  • A’isha

    Fabulous post! There is one part I disagree with to some degree…it depends on the situation really. You say that if someone’s sinning is hurting someone else and that person “could” protect themselves but aren’t then you should just ignore the sin, or wave to the train. Sometimes we don’t know the situation with the one being hurt. Can they really protect themselves from being victimized or is that just the way we perceive it? I think that the majority of bullying falls into this category. Can the ones being bullied protect themselves? Possibly. But do they believe they can protect themselves? I think if someone’s being hurt by someone else’s sin/actions then we always stand up for the victim. If they don’t need our help, they can tell us. At least they will know that someone else doesn’t believe they deserve to be victimized and is willing to back them.

  • A’isha

    Fabulous post! There is one part I disagree with to some degree…it depends on the situation really. You say that if someone’s sinning is hurting someone else and that person “could” protect themselves but aren’t then you should just ignore the sin, or wave to the train. Sometimes we don’t know the situation with the one being hurt. Can they really protect themselves from being victimized or is that just the way we perceive it? I think that the majority of bullying falls into this category. Can the ones being bullied protect themselves? Possibly. But do they believe they can protect themselves? I think if someone’s being hurt by someone else’s sin/actions then we always stand up for the victim. If they don’t need our help, they can tell us. At least they will know that someone else doesn’t believe they deserve to be victimized and is willing to back them.

  • http://mine4thetaking.blogspot.com/ FreeFox

    100% agree. ^_^

  • Stan

    Yes indeed, my stupid train has been speeding along non-stop for many years! I always resented when people tried to stop it, but regretted not stopping after the deeds were done. And now all I hear is the haunting whistle as my train hurries through the night.

  • http://mine4thetaking.blogspot.com/ FreeFox

    In his way validating the blog, eh? ^_^

  • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com Ric

    Exactly.

    No, sorry. I was mentally lamenting the fact that many churches actively teach “correcting your brother” without any qualifiers. I thought you would be able to read my mind.

  • Shadsie

    “Humans are Stupid” has been my mantra for a while. It helps me calm down in traffic. Doesn’t help the person driving so much, but it helps me. Helps me get over a lot of what people say/do on the Internet, too… Even helps me to forgive myself, because, as a human, I am not always right and there are times when I’m going to be stupid.

    I’ll definitely step in if someone’s going to get hurt. If I see someone about to murder someone with a large kitchen knife, I think it’s my moral imperitive to call the cops. If I see a friend hurting themselves, I’ll say so, but if they’re going to go ahead and do it, anyway, there’s not much to be done.

    Say, I don’t like promiscuity – I see it as erosive to love, but friends/family of mine who aren’t as into monogamy or just aren’t as aesexual as I am, I’ll say “Please use protection,” just because I don’t want them to get sick/hurt – sort of a “minimizing” nag, eh?

    A good example of this may be a poisonous friend I had for a while. Just an online friend, but still… In hindsight, I see her as nothing but a manipulative narcisist, but we did enjoy each other’s ideas and messgener-company for a bit. She kept dragging me into online fights to defend her from people, among other things. I wound up getting hurt a lot – I figured out that this person would provoke these fights, then come whining to me. She’d get very down on herself and I’d advise her – she’d think she was being “cute” (I guess) by telling me what she was going to do next, how she was going to handle something and I’d say “Don’t do it, that’s a stupid idea and you’ll just be provoking people. You’re gonna get hurt.” She’d say “Alright, you’re right, I won’t. The next day, what did she do? On a consistent basis. Between that and constantly trying to foist her obessions on me that I wanted no part of and getting down on me, I realized this person had no respect for me. I could not “save” her. For a long while, she acted like she wanted and expected me to “save” her – it’s pretty hard to do that when every piece of advice, every “trying to save” is thrown back in your face and treated as trash. Sometimes, you’ve just gotta let go and let people reap their own self-destruction – if you’ve tried and they have no respect for you, eh.

  • Candace

    This sums up my position — I like the Biblical guidelines on this — more specifically, the New Testament model.

    UNFORTUNATELY, for the last couple thousand years, the interpretation and application has been greatly distorted by Pharisees, wolves and those on power trips (er, are there any other kind?), who are either incapable of comprehending accurately what they read, or choose not to line up with it, even if they DO comprehend.

    I’m not perfect either, not even close, but here’s what I believe the New Testament teaches:

    We are definitely encouraged to step in and defend the defenseless (the least of these).

    We are taught to correct our brother — however, there are far, far too many who don’t think about what is meant by “brother”. Seems quite clear to me that, in context, it means *other believers*. So automatically, if a person is not a believer — chill. Not your job.

    There are also way too many Christians who do not believe that Jesus meant it literally when he said, “How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” (Matt 7:4-5)

    Since it is very, very rare indeed that I am capable of entirely removing my own planks, it is also very, very rare that I feel justified going after a speck in another’s. (Well, now. When I was a newer Christian? Not so much!)

    Further, (and I can’t quote chapter and verse on this, at least not in the time I am willing to spend), I believe a solid case can be made that the only context for corrective honesty is love. Which means there must be an existing close relationship, and I would also say that it needs to be a relationship in which the parties have agreed to be accountable to each other, being secure that they can trust the context WILL be love. Honesty/rebuke done in this context is helpful and gentle.

    A friend of mine says “Your heart needs to be just as broken going into it as your friend’s heart might be coming out of it.” If you go into it with pride, anger, eagerness or self-righteousness, you are not loving. You are bullying. But loving correction can be a HUGE blessing. I have friends I trust in that area now, and it is thrilling! I have never grown and learned this fast.

    And my final thought on the topic is: There is only one person I am allowed to thump over the head with my Bible — and that is ME.

    I say that with one lone qualifier — Telling (generic) you plainly what I believe and why is not thumping you over the head. Especially in a context like this where that is the deal, or in other contexts if you have asked, or if there is a public discussion going on. So if you disagree with me or feel offended by what I say — tough. :-)

  • http://williamely.name William Ely

    Wow, this post sounds surprising Libertarian. The live and let live rule of freedom. I like it. With views like this, why are you a Liberal?

  • Anonymous

    Am I?

  • Anonymous

    That post came at a perfect time, John. Thanks. I just sent a letter to someone I love, explaining why I cannot withstand their horrendous choices because I believe they will adversely effect the children.

  • http://williamely.name William Ely

    I’m sorry if I got that wrong, I might be thinking of someone else, I could have sworn we had this conversation once. It may have been one of the commenters instead.

  • Anonymous

    I did. I mean, I knew exactly what you meant.

  • Anonymous

    Oh, I was just being coy. All those kinds of terms are so relative, anyway. With one group, I’m a liberal. With another, I’m conservative. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/2010/10/15/were-not-all-deaf-yet/

  • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com Ric

    Yeah, I knew that. ha.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=525357929 Robin Jester

    “my arms are tired”
    “why are your arms so tired?”
    “i’ve been waving alot lately”
    “huh?”
    “johnshore dot com”

  • http://www.barnmaven.com Mary Peret

    I used to be a very helpful person. Over the years this has cost me. I eventually learned to keep my “assvice” to myself unless someone requested it — and even then, I try to determine if anything I tell them will really be helpful. Sometimes people ask you for advice then they don’t really want it or they don’t really want to change their problem.

  • http://www.barnmaven.com Mary Peret

    I used to be a very helpful person. Over the years this has cost me. I eventually learned to keep my “assvice” to myself unless someone requested it — and even then, I try to determine if anything I tell them will really be helpful. Sometimes people ask you for advice then they don’t really want it or they don’t really want to change their problem.

  • Brian Burton

    I Read The Post Alright And Thought It Was A Lot Of Unadulterated Crap. Life is not complex. We are complex. Lif is simple and the simple thing is the right thing.

  • StraightGrandmother

    Ace, you hit the nail on the head. I think John’s logic is a bit simplistic. There are gray areas, like you mention about an addiction or eating disorder. The way you said it is perfect. In other words you let the person know that you are there to support them (non-judgementally) because you see they are in a battle.

    Also the first thiing I thought of after reading about waving at the train was well what about bullying? Sure the kid (or it might even be an adult) who is getting picked on can stand up for themselves against the bully(s). So according to what I read that John wrote, you should not intervien. Let the victim of the bully stand up for themselves and you just sit on the sidelines mute. After all, the victim has the wherewithall to stand up for themselves so we should just do nothing, just sit on the sidelines. That doesn’t ring true to me, it just doesn’t. I like what you wrote better (sorry John) I gave you a “Like” also.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joan-Odom/100000408811837 Joan Odom

    John Shore, you are a breath of fresh air, in a spiritual realm, that has been rendered stagnant and fecund by right-wing insanity. *taking a breath* I so enjoyed your article on Stephen Baldwin’s “restoration” movement, that I posted same on my facebook page. I, as a recovering “fundamentalist,” am searching to find my way back to something resembling religion. I have gotten only as far as Unitarian Universalist, and am finding that satisfactory, for the most part. The hijacking of Christianity, by the GOP, has left many stunned. I fear this will be responsible for millions of folks who are seeking God, to become disgusted and disillusioned, therefore, NEVER finding solace. I think THAT is the “unforgivable” sin. Keep up the clever blogging and writing.

  • Anonymous

    What’s with the caps in the first line?

  • http://williamely.name William Ely

    I can’t imagine anyone calling you conservative. As far as I can tell, the only thing remotely conservative about you is that you are Christian. Beyond that, you plainly lean left. Glad to hear you have a freedom loving streak in you as well, that is refreshing. It is also rare in liberal leaning individuals.

  • Anonymous

    It’s so weird, the way people so automatically equate “Christian” with “conservative.” That’s so … since 1985. I still think of Christians as the liberal, hippie, civil-rights fighting people I knew them as growing up.

  • http://williamely.name William Ely

    I think that depends on what part of the country you live in, to be honest.

  • Writeright

    A friend of mine kept giving me notes informing me that I was on my way to hell… my church kicked me off the membership role — and all this because my husband left me and I ended up in a new relationship with another man (who vowed to look after my children and I)… we have been together almost 4 years (January 2007) and married since January 2009. Now that we married, not much is said and people are slowly talking to me again. No one realizes how terribly unhappy my first marriage was – but even though all this happened several years ago, I still feel hurt by the judgment of supposed Christians and the nasty things that were said to me… I don’t know why they couldn’t see that I was only human and that the situation could have been a lot worse! So yes, I very much agree with your attitude, John — don’t be pointing fingers at people just think “but for the grace of God, there go I!

  • Gksafford

    “Assvice” – LMAO! Can I use that or do you have it patented?

  • Suz

    Outstanding post, and so so true. It’s not heartless to wave to the train, it’s lunacy to try to stop it. Save your strength for those who need and want your help.

  • Ace

    QUITE a lot of it depends on whether you live in a rural or urban setting, more than anything else. Big city? More likely to vote democrat. Out in the country? More likely to vote republican.

    Statistically speaking, of course.

  • http://www.facebook.com/paulardoin Paul Ardoin

    John, you are my favorite booger. ;-)

    And related to your “go-to truth” is my favorite statistical analysis of the human race: http://wackyiraqi.com/theory/theory.jpg

  • http://williamely.name William Ely

    Texas is an exception to this. It is predominately Republican even in the big cities. Many local Republicans run for their positions completely unopposed.

  • kenleonard

    It’s hard to go wrong with “people are stupid.”

    I think Jesus had something to say about when to start pointing fingers, too. Something about removing the plank from our own eyes before going after other people’s specks?

    Not a popular teaching among certain moralizers on TV, of course, but worth considering in general.

  • Anonymous

    Both sad and true.

    This last election was…exceptionally awful.

  • Anonymous

    (I thought of you when I wrote that, Ken; I recall our conversation once about that particular Life Maxim.)

  • Actionman2go

    Hey wait – aren’t you a people too?

  • Anonymous

    What? I didn’t understand your question. Sorry.

  • Diana A.

    Might just go to show that God can use anybody. Or not.

  • Drewkotchan

    Brilliant, and very funny.

  • vj

    I think the reason Jesus told us to first sort out our own problems before trying to help others sort out theirs is that, once we have ‘been there, done that’, we are in a much better position to be able to offer real help. I think that’s why 12-step programs are so effective – the help you get from people who’ve traveled a similar road to your own is much more likely to be relevant than advice (however well-meaning) given by people who’ve never been down that path.

  • Ace

    Well Texas is kind of its own little bizarro universe from what I can tell. Can’t help you there, sorry. O.o;

  • http://mine4thetaking.blogspot.com/ FreeFox

    But don’t you think that that (even if not “asked for”) would be covered by the “help those who really are helpless” subclause? A truly self-destructive illness like alcoholism or severe bulimia don’t arise out of nothing. Maybe those who perpetrated the original damage are no longer actively around, but usually you don’t have too look far (for abusive or grossly incompetent parental figures, if biological or societally installed child care providers) to find the bully who did this. Or it is a biologically causes illness, such a biological depression or shizophrenia or so, in which case it’s not stupid we’re talking about, but sick. And again, I think that Mr. Shore did not mean to not help mentally sick people any more than he would advise to let some bleed to death by the side of the road.

  • http://mine4thetaking.blogspot.com/ FreeFox

    He asked you if you aren’t also stupid by dint of being as much part of “people” as anyone else. Witty, you know. Ironic. (Or, wait, were you just being ironically dense?) :P

  • Anonymous

    I’m still not really clear on what you or he is saying.

  • http://mine4thetaking.blogspot.com/ FreeFox

    Lol…

  • http://williamely.name William Ely

    I’m not from here originally, but Texas is a great place to live. Unemployment is half the country’s average here. Laws are very business friendly, which is why my family moved here to begin with. If making money is the goal, Texas is one of the best states to live in.

  • Anonymous

    Or, it could be that if we actually stop acknowledge our own sins, any sanctimony we held in reserve is quickly spent.

  • Candace

    Oh, man, I JUST recently went through that, with someone in a church-based recovery group I co-lead. Sadly (and not just with addicts and alkies), nothing works with some people until they reach the absolute bottom of their resources. By letting go and leaving them in their own mud, we are often doing the most loving thing for them. Trouble is, people are too kind and ready to help, so the “victim” can just find someone else to take over their cause. When this guy in our case burned through all the goodwill at our church, he just found a new one and started the cycle all over again :-(

  • Mary

    I’m not sure how I feel about this one, John. My husband defended me in July by pointing out the wrongdoings of a church council and a pastor gone TERRIBLY wrong. They had 6 police officers haul him out of the church hall. Could I have stood up for myself and called them out for their sins? Maybe. Well, probably not. I am so grateful that he did this for me.

  • Anonymous

    I am, too.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=662363732 Jude-Laure Parisien

    And who determines the “right thing”? You?
    Seems you read the post but were closed to its message to begin with.
    So, that person you see on the sideline as your bus pulls out, is me waving.

  • vj

    Oh, yes, this as well – which is, I think, the ‘standard’ interpretation of this (and which is all I have ever read into this, until yesterday). By acknowledging our own sin, all our puffed-up self-righteousness disappears, so we have no basis to judge others. But wouldn’t it be fantastic, if, instead of ‘just’ not judging others, we were also able to share their burden with them by helping them overcome whatever is troubling them by drawing on our own experiences (assuming they ask for help etc)?

  • Nate

    Excellent! I was having a discussion with someone the other day who had said that the link below was a great article on “Christian Judging”. When I read it, I threw up a little in my mouth, but I was having trouble convincing them of why the post was ridiculous. Your post helps, but would love further insight.

    http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Judging.html

  • 2kj2

    a truth about Jesus:
    youtube.com/watch?v=JNl-joC2MAY


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