What?! Mark Driscoll a Pinhead?

Yesterday a young man wrote to ask why I thought so many people are attracted to the preaching and teaching of Mark “Stop Looking At My Hair” Driscoll.

And really: stop looking at his hair. A faux-hawk is certainly a legitimate hairstyle choice. Especially for a pastor! Why, it’s like it’s trying to pull his whole head up to heaven.

Anyway, I’ve several times been asked about Mr. Driscoll’s popularity, and so thought I’d take a moment to venture an opinion on it.

Mr. Driscoll, it seems to me, is

Okay, can we stop already with the pointy-head jokes? This is serious business.

Now, as I was saying: Mark Driscoll is a very serious individual. Look here:

Does that look to you like a guy who shouldn’t be taken seriously? Of course it doesn’t.

So I think when we consider Pastor Driscoll, we must take into account his

Oh, c’mon! Stop it!

A great many of those attracted to Mr. Driscoll are young adults. This is because, generally speaking, young adults are in that harrowing phase of life wherein they’re discovering just how terribly complex real life can really be. Most young teens are filled with pure, black-and-white moral certitude; most young adults, however, freshly getting knocked about by the world beyond their homes, are unsettled by the encroaching conviction that things aren’t anywhere near as simple as they once believed them to be.

And that works out well for Mark Driscoll. Because where young adults have nothing but questions, he has nothing but answers. He is

Okay, I’m just going to ignore that. But that is the last one.

Driscoll is offering to the young adults in his audience a version of God and Christianity that many of them naturally find extremely compelling. And beyond that, Driscoll himself is

strong, commanding, powerful, unafraid. He is in control. And that can be very compelling to a young person, who is often finding so much inside and around them out of control. Well, they look to their Pastor Driscoll, and see

You know what? That’s fine. Fine! I’ll just stop talking now. I’m done. This has gotten ridiculous.

But before I totally give up on this, I want to be clear. Mark Driscoll is a force to be reckoned with. You can joke around all you want, but at the end of the day, Mark Driscoll is

All right, that’s it. I give up.

Here is Mr. Driscoll himself to show you why he is most certainly not to be dismissed out of hand as a power-crazed, egomaniacal, anger-fueled, testosterone-addled misogynist showman preying on the insecurities of young people and daring, in his appalling arrogance, to imagine that he actually speaks for God.

About John Shore

John Shore (who, fwiw, is straight) is the author of UNFAIR: Christians and the LGBT Question, and three other great books. He is founder of Unfundamentalist Christians (on Facebook here), and executive editor of the Unfundamentalist Christians group blog.  (In total John's two blogs receive some 250,000 views per month.) John is also co-founder of The NALT Christians Project, which was written about by TIME,  The Washington Post, and others. His website is JohnShore.com. You're invited to like John's Facebook page. Don't forget to sign up for his mucho-awesome newsletter.

  • Nat J. Earl via Facebook

    LOL (about the article, not the video).

  • Anne Reid Oppermann via Facebook

    Good explanation! Funny too!

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/donhildenbrand Don Hildenbrand

    Hey, I am a fairly liberal progressive, but I have to admit, if a pastor yelled “Who the hell do you think you are?”, I’d probably get up and walk out. Of course, if I knew it was Mark’s “church”, I’d probably just walk out…. just for “the hell” of it…. ;-)

  • http://www.facebook.com/valeriebarlowhorton Valerie Barlow Horton via Facebook

    Ha ha very funny. To really be serious here though, he is just another evangelical claiming to speak for God, and he has followers…pretty scary huh?

  • Jim RS Bachmann via Facebook

    This is sad and painful, bust most of all bullshit and damaged, brainwashed people buy into it. This is not Christ.

  • Mike Kear via Facebook

    :D

  • Chris Gillespie via Facebook

    Much as I detest Driscoll’s arrogance, I have to agree with what he is saying in the clip at the bottom. There are a LOT of Latins around me who should hear that in Spanish.

    • LSS

      some of the most respectful husbands i have ever met, including mine, are Latinos.

  • http://akiste.wordpress.com/ Alan

    Isn’t this the guy who thinks masturbation is gay because you’re having “sex” with someone of the same gender?

    • Diana A.

      Yes.

  • http://www.facebook.com/drenda.tigner Drenda Tigner via Facebook

    Is he talking to Mewt?

  • http://www.facebook.com/shadowlander Patti Hornback Mobley via Facebook

    *sigh* Great post John. This guy leaves me absolutely speechless. Couldn’t even finish the video at the end. Trying to think if I’ve ever known anyone more full of themselves (amongst other things ;-)).

  • Jim Bachmann

    I find this guy very offensive. His message is spiritually appalling and deceitful, and abusive. There is obviously a lot of work left to be done in the church.

  • Gina Cottrill via Facebook

    lol! Love the pics (and your points). ;)

  • http://www.facebook.com/nwbuckeye Pat Hux via Facebook

    my gay friends find him most obnoxious. but they think he’s cute and would like to tell him so……… bawhahaha

  • Wendy Young Callaway via Facebook

    Mark Driscoll is a misogynistic, homophobic, controlling bully. He reminds me of quite a few Calvary Chapel pastors.

    • http://www.barnmaven.com Barnmaven

      Ding ding ding ding ding!!!!

      Exactly my reaction, Wendy.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      I’ve always gotten “a bad feeling about this” from Calvary Chapelites. (I live in the county where they were founded, so they’ve been part of the local scenery for some time.) Nothing obvious I could point to and say “That’s Why”, but a general gut feeling that they distill down the bad parts of American Evangelical Christianity into their brand of faith.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jasonriggs1 Jason Riggs via Facebook

    Even though I have no idea who this guy is or the much about the subject matter in general, this was a very funny read John. Love the visuals.

  • http://www.facebook.com/claymatthewl Matt Clay via Facebook

    Nice article! I enjoyed reading. My concern is that Driscoll is beginning to drive another “warped” view on God, namely on how we are transformed into Christlikeness. I’ve listened to His preaching and I’ve read a few of his books. As “spirit-filled” as Driscoll may claim to be, I’m concerned he is trying to force transformation through anger, and fearlessness rather than preaching the text and allowing the Spirit to do the convicting and transformation. At times I find it off-putting and insulting to God that Mark is seeking to convict us with his tone… Again, conviction is the Spirit’s job.

  • Rob B

    What a goober.

  • Spider

    So…what’s wrong with getting down on guys who are being abusive or neglectful?

    • http://www.unchainedfaith.wordpress.com Amy

      Nothing, except it sounds like he was equating consensual sex with abuse. And not once did he give an example of *real* abuse.

    • Gary

      This guys understanding of sin and sexual purity is grotesque. He does not speak for God, he merely abuses and builds an empire.

  • http://www.facebook.com/daniel.batt Daniel Batt via Facebook

    I went to a friend’s brother’s birthday, and my friend was the first to notice that every one of his brother’s friends had exactly the same hair do. Like, not even punks or bikers are that predictable. OK, that leaves the serious stuff for others.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      A lot of nonconformists are totally conformist in their nonconformity.

      It’s a form of Tribal Identity.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Caroline-Miller/500786293 Caroline Miller via Facebook

    You know it’s a sad state of affairs when the most influential pastors subscribe to the “bad publicity is better than no publicity” mentality.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rmbiggerstaff Richard M. Biggerstaff via Facebook

    Another Glenn Beck , will do and say anything for money and fame.

  • James

    Not to pile on, but you missed one: http://i.imgur.com/YUbq2.jpg

    • Diana A.

      (shakes head sadly–after snickering, of course!)

      • Suz

        “Snickering” my a$$! I’m barking out loud!

    • Ember

      Having grown up seeing these in my grandmother’s collection, this is my favorite!

  • Brian W

    John,

    I was laughing out loud in my office that some co-workers came in to see what was up, I don’t know why this post of yours hit my funny bone so hard, but thanks!!

  • Darius M. Klein via Facebook

    The message seems to be a kind of cloak of righteousness under which Mr. Driscoll can induce those unhappy with the message to give money.

  • fedup

    this guy really fucking makes me sick!!!

    He is the exact opposite of the heart of God and Jesus!!

    Run people!! Run from this ‘shame’ agent of satan!!!!!!!!

  • Diana Avery via Facebook

    Sharing.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Denise-Burke/100002304043714 Denise Burke via Facebook

    He’s another big fan of finger pointing ( a la Jan Brewer ).

  • Pete Erickson via Facebook

    The chronicles of narcissism! When you use shame, intimidation and fear to combat shame, intimidation and fear. A narcissist couldn’t see the disconnect.

  • http://www.unchainedfaith.wordpress.com Amy

    It’s refreshing to see so many men who dislike this guy, especially since he kind of sells himself as a “men’s” pastor.

    I fail to see how his words promote grace or love. Since when does yelling at people help them change? I’ve never seen it work when a teacher does it in a classroom or when a parent does it to a kid. I think it just scares people.

    • Diana A.

      I imagine that he calls it “tough love.” Note that I am no proponent of tough love.

    • Erica

      Ordinarily I’d compose an articulated rant about psychological objectification and gender performance and bla, but this guy is so frigging stupid I can’t be bothered wasting the energy it would take to type it.

      Driscoll is a dick.

      The End.

      • Diana A.

        “Dick” is way too kind of a word for him.

        • Headless Unicorn Guy

          Well, considering the guy seems to be sexually obsessed…

      • mike moore

        Erica, you rock. Perfect and concise.

  • Gary

    What a festering boil on the ass of the body of believers this moron is.

    He has all the trappings of your typical cult leader.

  • Russell Mark

    Can you say “CULT?” Mark Driscoll and his “sickofants” are especially dangerous, not only to the people in the flock who are simply hunger for a “new world order” (heavy on the order), as defined by a “pterror-dactyl”-headed nut job that has been in the very thin air of the 7 Mountains way too long – but he represents the kind of violent, win-at-all-costs brand of evangelicalism that risks bringing on a second civil war in this country. This not simply about theological interpretative differences – this about the heart of democracy and the right to worship (or not) freely vs. theofascism.

    The rapid rise of Dominionism (of which Driscoll is a major player) represents a fundamentally real threat. Beyond the wackiness we’ve seen in the political gamesmanship of late from the broader, far right christianist movement, the Dominionists truly do not negotiate nor do they take any prisoners. There is absolutely no middle ground – friend or foe, that’s it. Think medieval Inquisition! Am I an alarmist? You bet – I’m sounding an alarm that these people and their 7 Mountains Plan for America’s salvation is in a word, fascism wrapped in the Stars and Stripes and presented on a KJV Bible.

    We must become educated about their beliefs, their plans, and their practices. We must shine the light on them and expose them. We should talk about them publically every chance we get and educate others. Like a fungus grows in dark, damp places, Dominionism has grown without much public scrutiny. However, look what happened with Michelle Bachman when she ventured into the light – BAM! Back to the cellar.

    Mark Driscoll is building a cult around himself (without any exaggeration on my part) as surely as Jim Jones did – only Driscoll’s looks more authentically “Christian” and has more public support. He may use Christian words and Biblical passages to support his practices, but their twisting ends up having entirely different meanings and consequences to the rest of us. So, saying, “Stay away from the Kool Aid” isn’t enough. We have to stop the toxic Kool Aid from being made and distributed. I guess what I am saying is, this is a war of Biblical proportions – no joke.

    • LSS

      7 Mountains?

      • Leslie

        This might give you some info on 7 Mountains:

        http://www.reclaim7mountains.com/

        I agree with Russell–Dominionism is scary stuff. They basically want to take back America one section at a time (eg. media, business, government). They truly believe God wants only Christians, specifically their brand of Christians, to be in charge of everything in America.

        • Headless Unicorn Guy

          i.e. The Handmaid’s Tale as a How-To Manual.

    • DR

      Yes.

    • Soulmentor

      *******…..win-at-all-costs brand of evangelicalism that risks bringing on a second civil war in this country.*******

      At which time they will play victim and claim THEY are being “persecuted for Christ”. We’re seeing the beginnings of that mindset now.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      There is absolutely no middle ground – friend or foe, that’s it. Think medieval Inquisition!

      Or Islamic Republic.

      Or Khmer Rouge.

      Or anywhere Purity of Ideology trumps Reality.

  • http://www.facebook.com/daniel.batt Daniel Batt via Facebook

    Actually, having now watched the video, and forgotten hair styles for a moment, this is hardly the most apposite video you could have posted.

    Now, John, much as I hate his theology, which I am sure produces more misogyny and homophobia than Mark can ever imagine, his message about those who treat women badly could hardly be a better corrective to what his theology ostensibly (or in reality) produces.

    Sure, no one is going to die having beaten their wives or girlfriends the night before and then taking communion the next day (man, God sure has dropped his standards since Ananias and Saphira were felled by God’s Holy Spirit), but as an example of reading the riot act to abusive males, this really isn’t a bad message.

    • Erica

      Except that only a miniscule amount of his rant is about abuse. The rest is just him trying to control the private, consensual sexual lives of his congregation. The rest is him vilifying sexuality. The rest is him re-enforcing quaint (read:destructive) notions of gender that have no relevance today, diminishing a woman’s worth to her relations with her male counterpart. The implication is that a woman has so little agency that if she is having sex with her partner, even THAT has nothing to do with her. It makes women the object in a one way-relationship where she is simply the thing to which things are done by men. She becomes entirely powerless. She is… subordinate. At what point did he address female promiscuity? Not that I would have been more impressed if he had.

      In short, the rest is flaming crap.

  • Heather Lantry via Facebook

    Yikes!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Benjamin-Lin/603820493 Benjamin Lin via Facebook

    I really don’t like this guy, but what he says here does apply to Newt Gingrich. Goodbye, Newt…

  • Courtney

    Wow. What a self-hating individual he must be. When his downfall comes (if it is public) it will be interesting to watch.

  • http://www.sparrowmilk.blogspot.com Shadsie

    I’m just wondering where you got the picture of the felt poop. I want one. I think it’s adorable (and because of my job, poop-jokes abound in my household). It’s labled “fudgemark” but I know what it *really* represents. Looks huggable.

    • LSS

      Check etsy and craftster. They have been big for a while… Think it started as a japanese thing. kawaii has no limits.

      • http://www.sparrowmilk.blogspot.com Shadsie

        It is obviously a Japanese-style cartoon poop. I’m quite familiar with them, being a fan of anime.

        It’s just you know, having been a stablehand for a while, Bob and I are always making poo-jokes, to the point where I’m thinking if I could get down to drawing it (I’m not good at comic/cartoon style) I’d like to do a semi-autobiographical magical-girl comic: Princess Pu-Pu! In our inside-joking, we already have an archvillain (Lord Smellypyle), an accessory (Grapplecat) and other stuff. Yes, our world is insane and we like it that way.

  • Diana A.

    Okay. Now I’ve seen the video. And I actually agree with a lot of what he says. But does he practice what he preaches? I’ve gotten the impression that he doesn’t. In fact, after reading this post: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/01/07/harmful-domineering-and-controlling/

    and a few other posts/reviews as well, I said on my Facebook (and in the comments of the post as well) that we should hold an intervention for Mark Driscoll’s wife and help her to get out of the relationship. It makes me wonder if he’s primarily preaching at himself, and if he even has enough insight to see how he has behaved abusively toward his wife.

  • http://www.sweethopecookies.com anita

    In two words…anger. management.

    In two words…hair. cut.

    In four words….John, SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/gordon.herzog Gordon Herzog via Facebook

    This post reminded me I need a haircut. Thanks, John!

  • Christy

    Oy. Dude’s got issues. (You know this is why they castigate psychology as fake mumbo jumbo in these circles, right? Ego is so adept at self-preservation.)

  • HJ

    Wow! I just went to the Mars Hill youtube page and the first video there is about:

    “What does a wife do if she feels she’s not easy to lead?”

    “Grace says that, for her, repentance was always the key first.”

    Hello Mars Hill, 1930 called, they want their gender roles back! :(

    http://youtu.be/dWLZXuLoleg

    • Diana A.

      “Hello Mars Hill, 1930 called, they want their gender roles back!”

      Best. Line. Ever!

      • Gordon

        Ditto!

  • http://www.barnmaven.com Barnmaven

    I’ve read bits and pieces of the Mars Hill blog, and to say I’m seriously disturbed is an understatement. Organizations just like this are the reason I walked away from church – and, sadly, God – years ago. I didn’t walk away just because the church I went to hated gays and marginalized women. I walked away because I think at a cellular level they hated PEOPLE. They hated themselves.

    A longing for the love that I was missing without God in my life brought me back to church — loving Christians brought me back to God.

    I think churches like Mars Hill are systematically damaging. They frighten the bejeebers out of me.

    • Diana A.

      “I think churches like Mars Hill are systematically damaging. They frighten the bejeebers out of me.” As well they should. They do me too.

    • Will

      “hated gays and marginalized women” “hated PEOPLE” “hated themselves”

      Barnmaven, You Nailed It! Fundamentalists in a nutshell.

    • vj

      This reminds me of John’s post about what Jesus said were the 2 greatest commandments – for the first commandment you love God, then you feel that God loves YOU, then you are able to properly put the ‘love thy neighbor’ commandment into practice! Hating yourself just ends up with everybody getting hurt…

  • Ric Booth

    The guy gives me the creeps.

  • http://Www.1fitnation.com Kelley Ryan

    Wow. That’s a whole lotta shame. My favorite part is how it’s immediately followed by ‘pass the plate’. Time to pay for your ‘sins’. Oi.

  • Michael

    Absolutely classic John. Thanks as always!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kimberly-McGarry/100000675387583 Kimberly McGarry via Facebook

    With quotes like this from his new book on marriage (Real Marriage: The Truth About Sex, Friendship and Life Together by Mark and Grace Driscoll)

    “As with many things in marriage, communication is key. When I came to the conclusion that the cure for a lot of my moodiness was having more frequent sex with my wife, I simply told her. Yes, it’s that simple… [He goes on to state that when he tried to talk to Grace about his depression, she talked too much about emotions] The truth was I needed to have more frequent sex with my wife, and we needed to discuss how that could happen…To make matters worse, seemingly every book I read by Christians on sex and marriage sounded unfair. Nearly every one said the husband had to work very hard to understand his wife, to relate to her and when he did that to her satisfaction then, maybe, she would have sex with him as a sort of reward.”

    or

    “In this season we shifted into ministry-and-family mode, neglecting our intimacy and failing to work through our issues. This became apparent to me when my pregnant wife came home from a hair appointment with her previously long hair (that I loved) chopped off and replaced with a short mommish haircut. She asked what I thought, and could tell from the look on my face. She had put a mom’s need for convenience before being a wife. She wept. (11)”

    It is just sad, the books talks about his wife having been sexually abused, and that he would have rejected her for it had he known about it before marriage.

    Forget his hair, it is his finger pointing in that video that surprises me. I think he forgets that three of his own fingers are pointing back at him.

    • Erica

      Oh my… that is so disgusting.

      How dare he pretend to care about women being abused, when he clearly values women as nothing more than tools for a man’s ego.

      • Gary

        Exactly. He is more of a sexist than anyone I know.

        • vj

          He made his pregnant wife CRY because she got her hair cut?!?! Can he spell ‘control freak’? HOW is that love, in any way, shape or form? HOW is that being a servant-leader? HOW is that giving up his life for his wife (as Christ gave up His life for the Church)?

    • Gordon

      Ugh. Cretin.

  • Dallas Jenkins

    I actually know Mark Driscoll in addition to having listened to multiple sermons and read multiple works. Have spent some time with him privately and publicly, not having formed an opinion of him until I spent said time.

    And “power-crazed, egomaniacal, anger-fueled, testosterone-addled showman preying on the insecurities of young people and daring, in his appalling arrogance, to imagine that he actually speaks for God,” is about as silly and patently false of a description of someone as I’ve heard in a long time.

    In spite of the fact that you often say things I strongly disagree with, John, and in spite of our occasional private (or on your blog) bickering, I like you a lot, consider you a friend, and would defend you to anyone who assumed they know your motives and your personality based on a couple articles or out of context clips of something you said.

    You call him arrogant, but what’s more arrogant than assuming you know what drives or “fuels” him?

    • mike moore

      Gee, Dallas, you’re right … it’s so very unfair of all of us to judge this weasel based solely on the mountain of books, sermons, and other public interviews Mark has given us.

      If only we could be so lucky to know, like you, the real Mark. Unfortunately, we can only know Mark’s public persona of charismatic, dangerous, lunacy.

    • Driftwood2K11

      It’s because he’s a bullying, self-righteous dick, Dallas. If it talks like a dick, acts like a dick, looks like a dick, it’s a dick. It’s really that simple. There’s no misunderstood anything going on here. Watching him speak for 5 minutes reminds of flim flam artists who like to guilt their audiences into handing over their money. He’s a crusty scab of a human being, and his head is shaped like a penis. Can I say penis? Well, I just did.

      ~D2k11

    • http://matthewpaulturner.net mpt

      Dallas,

      Have you ever met a man or woman who has been emotionally, mentally, or spiritually abused by Mark or by somebody in his kingdom?

      I’m sure he’s a swell guy when you two are hanging out in the green room backstage at some event or when you’re sipping a beer over dinner at a fancy restaurant. But you aren’t subject to his theological ills. And you don’t have to sit on staff with him. And you’ve never been disciplined by him or by somebody in his camp.

      Am I right?

      Then you don’t know Mark Driscoll.

      • Gordon

        Sounds like there more to this story….

      • LSS

        You’re the guy that writes the other blog that was linked to, right?

        It is a good work to protest something like that place and those actions and that guy. I don’t understand how it works but i understand how messed up it is.

        • http://matthewpaulturner.net mpt

          Yes. That’s me. And yes, Mars Hill is not a good place.

          Thankful for John’s voice.

      • DR

        Dallas will not respond to you he’s more of a drive by poster.

    • DR

      I know Mark Driscoll having lived in Seattle for all of my life and spent lots of time in his church. He’s very well-known in the Seattle community for being a loosely held together narcissist who is deeply troubled. His congregation. Has changed radically over the years and as a matter of fact, there are several groups that were started out of a need to recover from Mark.

      He’s a very troubled man and has now had to seek funding out of state by those who seem him out. I’m sure you won’t take my word for it which is fine. Just google it, it’s all there.

      I am sick and sad for his children and his wife. What a mess.

      • Christy

        “He’s very well-known in the Seattle community for being a loosely held together narcissist who is deeply troubled”

        How could he not. It’s painfully obvious. Kind of like Newt.

    • http://brickandtimber.wordpress.com/ DR

      With all due respect, given the incredibly low regard you display for women via your “humor” on Twitter – repeatedly – and your refusal to discuss it here, there or anywhere? I’m so shocked that you and John have any kind of “friendship” and consider that a testimony of the emotional and spiritual maturity he consistently proves he has.

    • Will

      Dallas, please explain how we all didn’t see and hear what we all saw and heard.

      Perhaps Rodney King wasn’t really beaten with batons by 1/2 dozen policemen.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW1ZDIXiuS4

      Unless Mark Driscoll is playing like Al Pacino in Scarface or Robert DeNiro in Raging Bull, I’d have to say the tape speaks for itself.

      Seriously “power-crazed, egomaniacal, anger-fueled, testosterone-addled”!

  • mike moore

    Jim Jones was an amateur compared to pointy-headed evil that is Mark Driscoll.

    Below is Mars Hill’s discipline “contract” … (reference, http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mark-driscolls-church-discipline-contract-looking-for-true-repentance-at-mars-hill-church-sign-on-the-dotted-line/ )

    I particularly like this part: bad boy “will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women and share it with XXX.” In other words, why buy pornography when we can write our own!

    Jokes aside, please note the person under discipline must: “write out a list of all people he has sinned against during this timeframe, either by sexual/emotional sin, lying or deceiving, share it with XXX anddevelop a plan to confess sin and ask for forgiveness.” So, it’s not enough that you confess your (perceived) sins publicly, you also have name names.

    Witch trials and scarlet letters can’t be far behind. Anyway, read it for yourselves.

    QUOTE:

    Mars Hill Church Church Discipline ContractAndrew XXXXXXBackground Issue (s)

    Andrew has been sexually involved with another church member, keeping it secret andusing deception to cover it up.He was dating/courting the woman under false pretense, while being an active member,serving, and attending community group.The repercussions of Andrew¶s sin have been widespread, as he is well-connected inthe church. Andrew brought his sin to light with a friend and then his CGL. As a result, he is under church discipline with the hope and goal of full restoration upon walking in a repentantlifestyle.

    Plan of Discipline

    y

    Andrew will attend XXX¶s CG and meet with XXX on a regular basis (define)

    y

    Andrew will not be involved in serving at MH

    y

    Andrew will not pursue or date any woman inside or outside of MH

    y

    Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history withwomen and share it with XXX.

    y

    Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sinwith K and share it with XXX and Pastor X.

    y

    Andrew will write out a list of all people he has sinned against during this timeframe, either by sexual/emotional sin, lying or deceiving, share it with XXX anddevelop a plan to confess sin and ask for forgiveness. _________________________ ____________ ______________________ ___________ Elder¶s Signature Date Member¶s Signature Date

    • http://www.sweethopecookies.com anita

      Wow Mike, even having spent the first 40 years of my life within fundamentalist Christianity I never saw anything like the Mars Hill contract or the obligations that are spelled out for all the members. Scary stuff.

  • http://thaliasmusingsnovels.com/ Lore

    Yes, Mr. Driscoll, if a couple is having premarital sex, it must be because the man is pressuring/coercing the woman into it. All women want to be married RIGHT NOW and will endure sex after the wedding for the sake of having a houseful of kids, which they also want asap. No women have a fear of commitment, want sex without emotional involvement, or voluntarily choose to be in a committed long-term romantic/sexual partnership that is not registered with the government.

    • erika

      so so true. just keep me preggers and fat and barefoot.

      • Sharon Bowler

        Erika, I’m sure Mark Driscoll would not approve of you being fat. Or not wearing make up for that matter.

        Sharon

      • Headless Unicorn Guy

        Even barefoot & pregnant, you still have to be a stiletto-heeled Jessica Rabbit knockout.

        WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

  • http://www.facebook.com/scottharris01 Scott Harris via Facebook

    Shames me to think that he preaches in Seattle. Yuck!

  • Chris Schryer via Facebook

    Mock the devil and he will flee from you….

  • Amelia Kilometere via Facebook

    He’s such an ACTOR. Ugh, I want to puke.

    • danielle

      Hey! Don’t insult actors ;)

      Dangerous and probably violent, this one. Eeek.

  • erika

    i have no words. i can not even snark.

    gross.

    i am gunna go bleach my ears and brain now.

  • Susan

    Seriously, really? He tells a story castigating his wife for getting a haircut she could maintain easily with a newborn (and a ranting, attention-suck husband) and ALL he talks about is how bad SHE was for ignoring his feelings about HER hair?? Where’s the maturity to emphathize with her concerns about long hair vs baby/time/puke in hair/hair pulling infants and mention that he stopped to consider HER side of the issue? Or perhaps offer to trade watching the baby for an extra hour each evening so she could have the time to keep up the long hair he seemed to value more than her feelings?? Where was HIS “taking time out of being a self-centered prick to consider her “wifely needs”?? Also, there’s an awesome new book called “intimacy anorexia” by Weiss that describes husbands making assholes of themselves JUST LIKE THIS and using self-righteous religious excuses to torment their partner and take out their own fears and resentments on them. My money is that he’s one of those creeps. And needs help, BAD.

    • vj

      Yup. One can just feel the servant-leader love flowing from him towards his wife – NOT! Jesus loved His Bride, the Church, and gave Himself up for Her – what, exactly, has Driscoll given up for *his* bride?

  • http://www.facebook.com/hokiegal4life April Haynes via Facebook

    Reminds me of Monday night rasslin’. (Otherwise known as wrestling to those who have never been plagued by a group of friends that love the stuff.)

  • http://www.BuzzDixon.com buzz

    So I’m watching this video, the first time I’ve seen/heard Driscoll in action (as opposed to photos & printed quotes) and I’m thinking to myself, “I’ve seen this guy somewhere before, but where…?”

    And then it came to me: George Liquor on the old REN & STIMPY cartoon show.

    Watch & see if you don’t agree: http://fliiby.com/file/50846/urqho7e21y.html

    CAUTION (and this is NO joke): People who might suffer PTSD from watching abusive / dysfunctional relationships need to know this clip has more trigger incidents than the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral.

    • http://strawberryroan.blogspot.com Shanyn

      Thanks for the trigger warning Buzz…I appreciate that!

  • Buzz Dixon via Facebook

    It’s nice to see George Liquor found work after the REN & STIMPY show: http://fliiby.com/file/50846/urqho7e21y.html

  • NKVM

    If the preacher thing doesn’t work out, his oratory style is perfect for a professional wrestler.

    • LSS

      Oh i like this comment.

    • Mindy

      OMG – that is almost exactly what I was thinking! Wrestling for Jesus! Good Lord, this man is offensive on soooo many levels.

    • http://www.barnmaven.com Barnmaven

      Nah. My sister is an ex professional wrestlers. Wrestlers are ever so much more cool than this dweeb.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Scott-Amundsen/100001101098317 Scott Amundsen via Facebook

    “You’re not God; you’re just a man!”

    Preacher, heed thy own teaching.

  • Scott Amundsen

    “You’re not God; you’re just a man!”

    Preacher, heed thy own teaching.

  • Scott Amundsen

    Fascinating stuff. Raving like a lunatic and acting like an asshole in the name of God.

  • http://ingridspeak.wordpress.com Ingrid

    OMG! I had never heard of our faux hawked friend until this very moment. John’s story piqued my curiosity and after the tears of laughter died down, I clicked play on the video. I was ok until frame 1:23…. And then he freaking SCREAMED at me. Well not me per se as I don’t personally abuse women, but if I did I may be scared straight, I think. I don’t know. I’m really just confused. This guy is a pastor? SMDH.

    • Lymis

      I’ve only heard of him through the gay press – because (shock and surprise) he’s rabidly homophobic as well. And somewhat unhinged about it. (Masturbation is a sin, for example, because if a man is masturbating alone, it’s a homosexual act, because it doesn’t involve a woman.)

      • Brena

        Bwahahaha

      • Gary

        Did he actually say this?

        • http://leap-of-fate.com Christy

          Yes. Yes he did. Made a pamphlet out of it. (Helloooo, serious issues with sex. Go figure.)

          • Gary

            Man…and I didn’t think my estimation of him could get any lower.

            It is truly hard to believe there are people still this ignorant. sigh

        • LSS

          Yeah it was in the news.

      • Soulmentor

        RODLMAO…..I hadn’t heard that one. My hoot for the day.

        Oh wait…….I AM gay!!!!!!!

        And like he never masturbates…or never did. Right.

        • Will

          Soulmentor, you reminded me of a great comedy “In & Out” with Kevin Kline.

          Kline plays a beloved teacher fired for being gay. Despite being fired, Howard(Kline) attends the graduation ceremony to support his students. When one student (Shawn Hatosy) who got into college with Howard’s hard work, learns that he was dismissed for being gay, he and his classmates proclaim themselves, one by one, to be gay as well, to show their support of Howard and to thumb their noses at the school board. Howard’s family follows suit, as do his friends, and all the townsfolk assembled (in a scene reminiscent of Spartacus). (Wiki)

          If masturbation means gayness, then gay people are in the overwhelming majority, and a tiny handful are hateful liars like Driscoll.

          In one national study, 95% of males and 89% of females reported that they have masturbated.

          http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/masturbation-guide

          Bottom line; Mark Driscoll is evidence against the existence of God.

          • LSS

            In a way i think it’s really clever because you can’t get more same-sex than your own self, assuming you are a mono-sex person and not intersex. But on the other hand, ehhhhh haha. …. Um, perhaps we can take it to the same extreme in another direction. … Maybe the existence of masturbation is evidence of the theory that (nearly?) everyone is a bit bisexual. Which should also be useful in combatting institutionalized homophobia.

          • Will

            LSS, I like the way you think!

            Mono-sex? Intersex? ???

            When I listen to my old 78′s I’m monaural.

            For a while in the ’70s I had 4 speakers so I was quadrophonic.

            Now when I listen through headphones I’m binaural.

            Boy George was quoted as try-sexual. Meaning he’d try anything.

            Some men are buy-sexual. They have to pay for it.

            If I enjoy sex alone and with another person, but not with 2 others, does that make me mono and bi but not trisexual?

            Anyway, I like your comment so I give you all my interwebs. :D

          • LSS

            Thanks! If those were actual questions (i couldn’t tell) then i should probably inform you that intersex can mean the people who are born with equipment of both genders, either complete or partial. Monosex i just tried to find the more explanatory term for the opposite of that, like how most people only have one set of equipment. There is also a word cisgendered but that is wider than what i meant, it means that you fit the gender binary physically and orientationally… It’s like a clinical term for having one set of equipment and being straight and presenting as the majority of people expect straight people to present…

          • LSS

            for a language geek like me, a cool thing about being educated by glbtqai friends is that you learn a whole bunch of new words. Some of which are literally new, having been invented to solve perceptual problems in society.

  • cat rennolds

    I’m troubled by the number of otherwise kind, reasonable people I know personally who find him a valuable speaker.

    • Brena

      They haven’t disagreed with him yet.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jo.hilder Jo Hilder via Facebook

    I wonder if this is how he speaks to his kids when they do something that upsets him? I can guess the answer to that question.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mockwriting Michael Mock via Facebook

    Possibly the best response I’ve seen so far. Sincere mockery is really the only sensible rebuttal to what he has to say.

    • Gary

      Sad but true.

  • http://Www.johilder.com Jo Hilder

    Someone once advised me that you can tell a lot about the way a pastor leads his family by watching the way he leads his church. If I’m glad I’m not in his church, I’m even more grateful I’m not one of his kids.

    • Liza

      Amen to that!!

  • Jennifer Sandberg

    Okay, I get that some of his theology is still in the dark ages, but I have to say, I wish my husband would listen to him about how he treats me. He does not respect me. I wish more ministers, pastors & preachers would hold some of these guy’s feet to the fire. The lack of respect in relationships is probably why there are so many marriages on the rocks. And progressives need to do some of that, too. Because there are many (of either gender) who do not respect their spouses, g/b/friends.

    • http://holidaylonging.com Holiday Longing

      I have to agree with Jennifer. I am NOT a young woman, but though I don’t like his style in this sermon NOR some things I’ve heard him say about women (and the hair is weird), I do agree with what he said about how men often don’t treat women the way Christ told them to: to lay down their lives…

      • Diana A.

        But he needs to set the example. It’s not enough for him to yell at his parishoners. And it’s clear that he does not practice what he preaches.

        • Brena

          And when the answers are the same blanket answers for every sin and ill: tithe, attend church, participate in worship (so we look like we are the perfect church and everyone his happy to be here), pray with your family, then it doesn’t seem like he cares enough about how the men are treating the women to actually come up with real answers. Church happiness is supposed to be a symptom of the reality of healing. That’s like yelling at overweight people to get thin and then they will be well but never teaching exercise, nutrition, check-ups, pain management…

  • http://www.facebook.com/akconstant Christopher S. Constant via Facebook

    Driscoll aside, John I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair in my office.

  • Shanyn Silinski via Facebook

    I read a really good post by Kurt Willems today about the Mars Hill policy…worth reading.

  • LSS

    Just read the post that was linked to about the guy that underwent “church discipline” …. I don’t understand that church and that preacher.

    Like, the only frame of reference i have was a church my parents and i went to for about a year that had like 15 people and half of them were the pastor’s own kids. They weren’t even that freakishly controlling (although they got close when they said that if you didn’t join a church -not necessarily theirs, though!- you wouldn’t be saved, because of that verse about what is unlocked on earth being unlocked in heaven[?] something like that) …. What saved me that year was reading Moliere’s “Tartuffe”… A classic story of religious hypocrisy.

    But i don’t understand how a church like that could be so successful. Like i said my reference point congregation was so un-successful.

  • Peter Lefevre via Facebook

    Never saw him before this clip. a) I guess he won’t be voting for Gingrich, b) he’s such a jerk he makes me want to disagree with scripture just because he’s the one quoting it, and C) when he said “Sit right there, no one gets their kids,” it popped this into my mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    • Will

      Great observation Peter.

      Cultish mind control by force and authoritarianism.

      Very, very scary.

  • http://www.facebook.com/sspencerwolff Scott Spencer-Wolff via Facebook

    @Buzz – that was a brilliant and apropos response. Loved it!

  • http://www.facebook.com/brena.easterday Brena Easterday via Facebook

    I am sure that his “I don’t care who is looking; I’m gonna say it like it is” approach sounds like the comfort of real concern we are looking for. There is nothing wrong with tough love providing a strong support. With that said, it is a modern styled rendition of the same old story: give tithes, pray with the family, worship along with the songs and everything will be alright.

    That’s the same attitude that says, “We spend on welfare and the projects and it does nothing to help with literacy, employability, or reducing crime.”

    “We spend some money on them and pile them in the one place and ignore the intimate and real problems they have and they still are acting like this? (church, projects, either) The policing of these people is general, tough, and non-negotiable; why do they never act any better? I don’t know what else to give you people.”

    Because the real beauty of tough love is not that it requires the one who is loved to be tough but it requires the caregiver to be tough. Tough enough to handle being real and vulnerable about my own struggles and to be tough enough to crawl and scrape through the desert of my own soul to real answers that really work for me -even if they are not the answers the “club of accepted ones” wants to be true. The real strength in the prophets of old was in their willingness to take a stand, not in the comfort of the crowds or powers, but outside with the truly lost and bring them back to their father. As long as the judgement comes from looking down on the sinner and the first step for answers or salvation comes down to attendence and tithes and the appearance of cooperation (singing with worship and praying aloud) then I am suspect of the motives of the tough love shepherd.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Blaine-Williams/100001220897612 Blaine Williams via Facebook

    I watched 2 mins. and that was it. Enuf. What bull. total theater. I can see Christ now yelling at the people during his sermon on the mount.

  • http://www.facebook.com/brena.easterday Brena Easterday via Facebook

    As far as church discipline is concerned, I irritated my pastor a lot (as a progressive Christian will do) and when my mother got ill I missed nearly a year of church to care for her and go through what was easily the most stressful time of my young adult life. During this time the family’s membersips were terminated and we became “shunned.” A family that loved us at the church would try to discover what we had done that was so horrible and no one had any facts but everyone was sure I was the “satanic” influence that caused it. So, I have many people who have blocked me on facebook and one woman who later came to work where I did and embarrassed herself by trying to warn others of my “false” Christianity. Sad. But, I find, like Jesus showed with the woman at the well, that the dreaded “sinners” are really open to any real sharing of personal faith and bloom in the face of the grace of God. I never would have been allowed to minister with that church anyway because I refused to only wear skirts and dresses and no woman could wear pants in “his” pulpit. And, like I told my pastor when he mentioned the church discipline scripture about treating the unrepentant like gentiles and tax collectors, Jesus ate with them!

  • Donald Rappe

    Ugh!

  • http://www.fixingdivots.blogspot.com ronnie

    OH dear! Fear tactics; threats; shouting; shaming; patronizing the ‘little women’ – yikes! I say no thank you to his brand of religion….

    by the way, loved all the photos – spot on!!!

  • Brian Erickson via Facebook

    i couldn’t make it past minute 2. Thanks for ruining my special time with my Stone IPA ;)

  • Molly Aley Davis via Facebook

    Such a good post…and such good comments.

  • Richard Lubbers

    Jefferson Airplane released a song called “Clergy” in 1969. Interestingly, it was on the album entitled “Bless It’s Pointed Little Head”. It’s an instrumental; no lyrics! Do you think there’s a subtle message there?

    • Will

      Thanks Richard for turning me onto to some great music. :D

      I was 11 in 1969. Two years before I found Rock & Roll. I’m still hooked.

      Clergy is the first cut; not a song but live audio of the Fillmore East crowd reaction to the scene of 1933 King Kong fighting the biplanes on the Empire State Building.

      Lots of booing. Appropriate reaction to this travesty of a sermon.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tr-UctURQ

  • Otter

    Now, I’m not married to a man…….but i was kind of enthralled by his exhorting men to treat women better. THEN it hit me……he’s perpetuating the system where women get whatever guys feel like dishing out. If he really cared about women, wouldn’t he be encouraging them to demand respect rather than beg for it? And his brand of leadership is BS….ditto to all above comments

    • http://allegro63.wordpress.com sdgalloway

      I do wonder if people like Mr. Driscoll understand the concept of “loving ones wife like Christ loved the church” What did Jesus do? He displayed respect for people’s individuality, empathy for their pains and sorrows, desire for equality and the removal of social injustice as well as trumping social norms to demonstrate that desire. And of course that’s just the short list.

      When one demands respect they will never get it. Respect is something willingly and freely given, a concept that means we hold that person in great value, appreciate their talents and opinions and trust their judgments. It is something all people desire regardless of gender. Demanding it means you want something else, dominion.

      The flip side of that biblical equation is similar, submission is also willingly and freely given. It means that one decides to trust an another to make decisions that will benefit the couple or group on a matter. They can also be assured that the one given the front line do what they can to consider everyone’s needs and desires, as well as be willing to get out of the way if the other parties is better suited to take the driver’s seat when needed. Demanding submission from one’s spouse is the same demanding respect. Its is actually a demand for dominion.

      • Lymis

        “When one demands respect they will never get it. ”

        Yes, in a very important sense. When you put all the agency for that respect in someone else’s hands and then ask that it be given, you likely won’t, or it will be a poisoned thing that is at least as much patronizing as respect. If you only let yourself have the respect that someone else gives, you’ll always be either starving or insecure.

        On the other hand, when you embrace your own worth, your own dignity, your own value, your own respect-worthiness, and then live your life in a way that makes it clear that you expect that to be mirrored by others and that you won’t accept anything less, you generally do get it. Not because you asked for it, but because it doesn’t occur to others not to give it, and you make it clear that you won’t associate with people who don’t. You retain the agency for your own respect.

        And of course, when you genuinely understand that about yourself, it’s pretty much inevitable that you will see it in others, and respond to it in others as well.

        • Richard lubbers

          Excellent!

        • http://allegro63.wordpress.com sdgalloway

          Oh that too!

          • Brena

            Love thy neighbor as thyself. If there is no love of the self then…

            So, yeah, no one will give true respect to the one who hates herself, who erases herself, who submits herself to the postition of punching bag…

          • http://allegro63.wordpress.com sdgalloway

            So true Brena. Learned that lesson the hard way.

          • http://leap-of-fate.com Christy

            Funny how the Golden Rule and psychology mesh so seamlessly together, eh?

        • Otter

          Lymis…thanks for saying exxactly what I meant. By respecting ourselves we draw healthy boundaries around what is acceptable to us. Appreciate your clarity!

        • http://leap-of-fate.com Christy

          Perfect, Lymis. Thank you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Elizabeth-Rossano/100001148589372 Elizabeth Rossano via Facebook

    just…wow! As a woman…just wow…talk about a few steps back.

  • Dana

    So let me get this straight– this Mark Driscoll is also a pastor at Mars Hill Church with Rob Bell?? I’m missing something. Somebody explain this to me.

    • Gary

      No Rob Bell’s Mars Hill church is in Michigan.

      Those two men are about as far apart theologically as it is possible to get in the Christian faith.

      If they were serving together…well the fireworks would be fun to watch.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      It is confusing: both Driscoll and Bell’s churches have the same name. Cuz God’s funny like that.

      • Dana

        Thank you! I also found out the answer on the internet. Mars Hill is such a unique name for a church that I thought it was the same one- and totally couldn’t believe that Rob Bell would allow such foolishness in that church.

        It WOULD be great to see a theological debate by those two. Not only are they theologically polar opposites, they’re speaking styles are very different.

        Pointy-head Driscoll: “HOW DaRE YOU!!!”

        Heretic-Love-Wins Bell: If you just

        Think outside the

        Box

        You would

        *breath*

        Understand

        That your narrative theology

        *pause for emphasis*

        Has some holes

        Come SNL! What a great sketch!

        • Dana

          *their

        • Gary

          SNL sketch…what an awesome idea that would be. I don’t know if I could handle laughing that much.

    • troy

      Nope. Same Church name, different churches. Driscoll is in Seattle. Bell’s church is/was in Michigan I believe.

  • Candice Wilkins via Facebook

    IMHO I see a toxic combination of a man who uses psychological projection as a defense mechanism AND the old Shakespearean saying “The [pastor] doth protest too much, methinks.” How very obvious and sad.

  • Will

    I lasted all the way till 2:21. Then I had to shut it off.

    Still shaking my head that people attend places where that goes on.

    Anger = fear of loss of control.

    Patience = knowing that everything is going according to plan.

    Is God angry or patient?

  • Phoebe Fennell

    Y’know, as much as I dislike his style, I know plenty of people, both men and women, who need the message he’s putting out. Being angry about bad stuff is not a sin. Doing something about that bad stuff in the way you see available is not a sin. No, I have no interest in attending his church, but he doesn’t offend me and I certainly see his value.

  • http://www.edgibson.net Ed

    i just don’t see how he thinks he is actually helping people… pretty hard to argue against treating women disrespectfully, BUT- behavior modification is MUCH more complex and takes more than being screamed at… what a joke!

    i can’t believe help but believe his screaming is more about his own ego than actually about dealing with issues such as domestic violence, or sexual impropriety (however you want to define that).

    • Gary

      Exactly!!

    • vj

      Yes, because we all respond SO well when people scream at us…..

      On the other hand, God’s kindness leads us to repentance, His unfailing love never ceases, and His mercies never come to an end. I know which approach I respond to better!

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      “And stop screaming. Nobody likes a religion with people screaming.”

      – Classic Internet Monk

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mad-Maddie-Mendelsson/783945797 Mad Maddie Mendelsson via Facebook

    I really enjoyed the picture captions! :-)

  • Jim RS Bachmann via Facebook

    Really John? :) That’s been the problem with much of organized religion. We should be going everywhere.

  • W. Lotus

    ROTFLOL!!!!!

    *composes self…NOT*

    ROTFLOL!!!!!!

    • Gary

      I think this is exactly what I would have done had I been sitting in the congregation when he launched into this egomaniacal, scripture perverting, grandstanding, lead into what seems most important to him…the collection plate. Perhaps this is what he decided to try next after he threatened the entire flock with releasing the names of all the members who were not giving up to HIS expectations. I would love to have been there to get up and walk out while laughing hysterically at the at the incredible falsity of it all.

      This guy is a total douche.

  • Anke

    Using the voice in that manner is absolutely unhealthy…on all accounts…for Mr. Driscolls vocal chords…

  • Ben Husmann via Facebook

    sick to my stomach. couldn’t make it through the entire clip. probably because i’m no man.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gary.freeman Gary D. Freeman via Facebook

    Remember: Damn you…Damn you all to hell…and I’m passing around the plate so be sure to spend your way to redemption *lmao*

  • Soulmentor

    I shut it off. I have no patience with a shouting ego under the rooster crown of an older man trying to look like a teenager.

  • http://www.sparrowmilk.blogspot.com Shadsie

    I never really knew who Driscoll was. I’ve seen his name in the news, but I kind of barely registered it as just another one of those crazy names in the news. This is why my first post on here bypassed him to talk about the adorable felt cartoon poop -because it is adorable.

    I only watched part of the video. I don’t respond well to yelling. It sets off anxieties in me. Maybe it’s that people like that remind me of my older brother. I can’t say that I’m not kind of like that in one of my berzerker rages, but mine usually aren’t public/structured/directed at at a “flock”, and with me,and sooner or later during one of them, I’m likely to talk about the destruction of all human life. Then I turn everything inward, hate myself and have to be talked down before I hurt myself. Maybe Driscoll should talk to a doctor about bipolar disorder? One can take steps to cope with a wonky brain.

    One thing I noticed in what I saw in the video was his emphasis on “joining the church.” (if I’m remembering the video correctly). I’ve encountered that before… people who think that “in order to be saved one must participate in the Body of Christ and the Body is the Church and/or our church.” Can someone explain that to me in a way that jives with the whole “everyone who comes I will never turn away” thing? Especially if you have one of those “once saved, always saved” theologies like the Southern Baptist congretation I was a part of used to have? I’m beginning to think that if I met up with some of those folks today (they were actually very nice people I was proud to call friends), that they might *suspect* the sincerity of the salvation they were once sure I had because I haven’t darkened a church door in years.

    I was talking with an online friend the other day about an article I saw on the Huffington Post about a proposed “Atheist Church” for athiests who like rituals and meeting with others without the actual belief and I was all “I’m kind of like the opposite of that. I like the substance of faith W/O the meetup and the rituals!” I just find differeing human needs and likes interesting, I guess. (I rather liked the commentator to that I saw who said he “worships at the altar of St. Matress on Sunday mornings”).

    I’d say my aversion to church is in part because it’s my dislike of dogma and politics, but a lot of it is my flat-out disability. I mentioned my mental issue. I’m extremely introverted and anxious whenever I have to deal with people, particularly any who lord “authority” over others. I get along fine online, but left to my own devices, I’m pretty much happily a hermit. Crowds, people… trigger my anxieties sometimes. I also have been undergoing some physical problems of late. I can understand why people who think “One MUST go to church” would condemn me, seeing as mental issues don’t get a lot of respect in our culture, but I have to wonder if people like that feel the same way about say, eldery people and war veterans and accident victims with injuries and mobility problems?

    I kind of think I participate in “the Body” by coming to, well, here. Just because it’s all electronic and in text, does it matter? I like that this blog is a place of all-comers and delightful oddballs.

    For those who think physical church is a “MUST” I have to wonder about the long church history that honored hermits – cloisters who prayed for the world and sought oneness with God *away* from the main “Body.” If we wind up going back to theocratic medieval society based around the Church, I’d like to be one of the hermits, please. I’m just too *weird* to be a part of the “normal.”

    And too anxious to be yelled at by angry men who’s faces resemble cartoon poop.

    • Diana A.

      “…but I have to wonder if people like that feel the same way about say, eldery people and war veterans and accident victims with injuries and mobility problems?”

      Most mainline churches have home visitations for people who are no longer able to get to the physical building of the church–a pastor and or voluntary congregant come over, talk, pray with the member, maybe do communion. I’ve never actually participated in one of these but I know my church has them.

      “I kind of think I participate in ‘the Body’ by coming to, well, here. Just because it’s all electronic and in text, does it matter? I like that this blog is a place of all-comers and delightful oddballs.”

      I think you do too. I also think that you are a member of “the Body”, the Church Universal even when you do not have a specific church congregation that you are attending. I like to attend physical church because our church has some cool members and classes and I love singing in the choir. But not all church congregations are healthy (as many have attested on this blog) and some can definitely cause damage.

    • Will

      Shadsie, where you are, God is.

      You know who else almost never sat in the pews? Jesus!

      The Gospels show him everywhere else but church.

      The closest he got was hanging around outside talking to the old men.

      Jesus was no sheeple, and that’s one of the reasons why the priests hated him.

      A church can be a wonderful place for people of like minds to gather,

      but God lives in the human heart, not in a structure of walls and closed doors.

    • LSS

      A lot of us autistic types have the same trouble about church. Add in AD(H)D which is pretty common overlap, and (especially social) anxiety which is pretty much universal overlap and yeah… MAJORLY hard to go to church.

      • Will

        I’m right with you there.

        It is physically painful for me to sit through a boring or bad sermon.

        When someone is using the Bible as a weapon, I have an an extremely hard time stifling my displeasure, almost to the point of Tourettes syndrome.

        I don’t have social anxiety but I do have ADHD symptoms regarding impulsivity, where I will blurt out exactly what I think or feel at the time.

        I love attending church where God’s/Jesus’ love is the message.

        I wouldn’t last two minutes in a fundy church. :D

        • http://www.sparrowmilk.blogspot.com Shadsie

          Thankfully, in my old church, they were actually accomodating to “those who couldn’t sit still.” Children brought Gameboys. I – though a teenager and supposed to be grown up enough to sit still – drew. On everything. If I didn’t have my sketchbook with me, I was doodling on the bulletins.

          If I ever do go back to a church and they *don’t* let me draw dragons, lions and weird goatlike fantasy-creatures all over my church bulletin, that’s my cue to hit the door.

          • vj

            I doodle in my notebook all the time during the sermon – taking notes helps me to remember the message (I almost never refer back to my notes), and doodling when I’m not actually writing seems to help me carry on paying attention… Although, I just do the same little flower over and over again – I’m sure your doodles are MUCH more interesting!

    • Anon

      I too have a disability that makes mobility difficult. Church is difficult. I cannot even get into most of the Sunday school rooms because there’s stairs everywhere.

      I hear you about the acceptance thing in a lot of these churches. There’s definately a heirarchy and we, the disabled, are not accepted. The people with invisible disabilities are the best off. They can pretend to be healed. The people like me who can never appear “normal” suffer because we obviously have a faith issue or sin in our lives or God would have healed us. Still we are pitied and tolerated more then the last group. Those who are mentally or emotionally ill are the most looked down upon. They are judged, they have demons cast out of them and experience scorn, pity and church discipline every time they turn around.

      If Jesus can get nauseas this must make him puke.

  • Scott Amundsen

    What mystifies me is why so many people flock to “Ministers” like Driscoll. Speaking for myself, I am not a proponent of “substitution theology,” which is the favorite worldview of the Fundamentalists and which basically expects us to swallow the concept that a loving God creates men and women in His image, but from the moment of our birth we are under the curse of His furious anger because of a birth defect known as “original sin” and unless we turn to Jesus and follow various other dogmas, we will spend eternity in Hell after we die. So Jesus came to earth specifically to be brutally murdered to satisfy the blood lust of His supposedly loving Father. If you believe ANY of 1 Corinthians 13, this theology makes no sense, since 1 Cor 13 clearly states that love “keeps no record of wrongs,” yet supposedly, according to Revelation, we will all have to account for our sins come “Judgment Day.”

    This is an irreconcilable contradiction. So at the risk of being accused of being a “pick-and-choose” Christian, I prefer to believe that God loves us all, no matter who we are and what we do. Paul wrote that “nothing can separate us from the love of God…” I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions.

    • mike moore

      I think most people love to have the world painted for them in crisp black and white, with no pesky grey patches, especially if the painting is by a highly charismatic crazy person (Heil Hitler.)

      Spiritual Algebra is also appealing … it’s very assuring to know that, in lieu of thinking for one’s self, one only need follow the formula laid-out by Mr. Driscoll to get into heaven.

      • Jill

        Well said.

    • Molly By Golly

      Nicely put.

      • http://www.wugmanmax.com Wug

        I think the problem with this line of thinking gets a little attention in the blog John just wrote about murdering rapists going to heaven. Sure… as the murdering rapist, you feel great about the “God is just love” stuff. But what about the victim? the victim’s families? How do you feel about the “God forgives and loves the murdering rapist that killed your daughter” belief?

        It gets complicated real quick and there are no easy answers that make everyone on all sides feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Reality can suck.

        • KERYAN

          The book The Shack addresses this in an interesting way.

  • http://somaticstrength.wordpress.com somaticstrength

    Mark Driscoll is considered this wonderful, amazing spiritual leader at the church I grew up in. ESPECIALLY by the people who I was in youth group with, who are now young adults, and I agree with the assessment that they like it because it gives them a black-and-white in a complex world.

    It mirrors their own upbringing. I live in a “bubble” city, one where your more than likely to meet someone with your same political and moral beliefs (though that someone might be a Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon, since we have a lot of those here). Upper-middle class city, and most people can spew whatever conservative beliefs they want without too much resistance. My former church is very anti-college education, and is also anti-too much introspection, and so Driscoll’s words vindicate them that what they have always been taught to believe has always been true. No need to step outside of the bubble, or consider other points of view, or realize that the world is not black and white, but shades of every color.

    I wonder as well if the people who favor Mark Driscoll aren’t their own kind of egotistical. I tend to notice that the people who believe themselves to be “servants of Christ” (see, they’re *more* than a Christian) and who wear their faith like a style tend to be ones who are confident that they are righteous. Oh, they’ll claim “we’re all sinners” but see, god has taken away ALL that sinfulness and now they’re Ultimate Christians, puffed up about their humbleness. And so Mark Driscoll’s words seem good to them because his words are always judging *other* people, never them. They don’t internalize the words as a criticism against themselves, his words are for the non-Christian or the weak Christian, or the bad Christian – the Christian that is never, ever them. So it makes them feel powerful by association – someone is giving them permission to be angry and judgmental toward others, and doing it under the name of Christ, so it’s a holy angry, a holy judgment, and that makes it all okay. And if you feel guilty by his words, or upset, or hurt, well that’s just holy conviction because if you *weren’t* the horrible sinner Driscoll says you are, you wouldn’t feel guilty. And they don’t feel guilty because they aren’t that sinner.

    Not sure. I can believe it of the Christians I grew up with, consider they’re typically ones who have a slew of judgments for other people and an inability to listen to the ways they might be hurting others because they have the Truth. (And my former church really does capitalize “Truth” because “Truth” is the same as “God” to them. And according to them, they have the corner on both.)

  • Ben P

    He sounds like an angry chubby faced little boy. I have been shown videos of Mr Driscoll by friends trying to correct “sins” of my life. I am not a huge fan of him or his style. Screaming at people? I agree with what he’s saying but how dare he not show forgiveness and sympathy for those struggling to fight sins that already make them feel like less of a man. Shame on you Mark Driscoll for screaming at broken men. I believe some of the men he described need to be yelled at for what they do but not in his way. Shame on you, shame on you, fill out the damn cards so maybe we can help you little boys! (Insert Angry manboy growl)

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      He sounds like an angry chubby faced little boy.

      He’s the fat kid who was at the bottom of the heap all through grade & high school getting crapped on who’s now in a position of Power over others HE can crap on. It’s Payback Time!

  • mike moore

    everyone following John’s blog post on Mark Driscoll should read the link below.

    Aside from the sheer craziness of it all, I feel it demonstrates that Mars Hill should be considered a cult. The post has to do with how Mars Hill would discipline those who “stray” and how frikkin crazy they get when they lose control over a member of their church.

    http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mark-driscolls-gospel-shame-the-truth-about-discipline-excommunication-and-cult-like-control-at-mars-hill/

    • Will

      Thanks Mike for a great article.

      It sounds to me like it won’t be too long before Driscoll decides to take the whole flock to heaven with some cyanide koolaid.

      • Diana A.

        I hope not. Please God, no!

        • Anon

          Most of these groups bump along for awhile until they get so crazy nearly everyone leaves. They leave a lot of broken people looking to rebuild their lives, but not so many dead bodies. They literally go out with a whimper not a bang.

  • http://www.progressivechristianitybook.com Roger Wolsey

    John, you are freaking hilarious!

    For what it’s worth, here’s my take on all of this from a slightly more “pastoral” perspective. ; ) “Why Mark Driscoll Needs an Elephant” http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithforward/2012/01/why-mark-driscoll-needs-an-elephant/

    • Will

      Thanks Roger. That article had good insight. It was worth reading.

  • Tom

    Wow … first time I’ve seen the brute … can only think that he’s wrestling with some very angry demons (like Mark 1.28ff) – demons can speak of Jesus, but Jesus silences them because they’re unclean, and their voice is of no value to the kingdom of God. Those who sit under this kind of teaching are letting some ancient parent still beat the crap out of ‘em … there’s no healing in this message; no health, no hope! He’s a spiritual terrorist!

    • Headless Unicorn Guy

      I don’t think his “very angry demons” are external entities. I think they’re his own dark side (sexual and otherwise) justified by Divine Right.

  • ellen

    May somebody already said this, but are you sure that’s not Sam Kinison back from the dead?

    • Will

      Sam Kinison made me laugh so hard the tears would run down my face and my ribs were sore the next day.

      You know he was a recovering ex-Pentecostal preacher?

      Kinison played on his former role as a Bible-preaching evangelist, taking satirical and sacrilegious shots at the Bible, Christianity and famous Christian evangelist scandals of his day. Kinison’s daring comedy helped shoot him to stardom. On several videos of his stand-up routines, a shot of his personalized license plate reveals the words “EX REV”. (wiki)

      His grave marker includes the unattributed quote, “In another time and place he would have been called prophet.” (Waymarking.com)

      Although they share a similar volume level, Driscoll remains the caricature of the evangelists that Sam made fun of.

      • Diana A.

        I loved Sam Kinison. I miss him enormously.

        • http://www.bodysoulblissyoga.com Jamie Brown

          me too

  • Brook E Mantia via Facebook

    When did he stop beating his wife?

    • Will

      Did he stop beating her?

      • Anon

        Exactly.

  • Sharon Bowler

    It seems to me that Mark D takes the passage about men loving their wives as Christ loves the church to mean; wives, love your husband as if he is Christ.

    Peace, Sharon (on staff at a *different* church in Seattle.)

    • http://www.barnmaven.com Barnmaven

      Bwahahah. “Love your husband as if he IS Christ.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/barbara.tillman Barbara Tillman via Facebook

    Whoa!!! Angry much? Dude might wanna check on that log stuck in his eye…

  • Steve

    So God’s going to strike some men dead right then and there in that service, huh? Wow.

    • Anon

      Every freakn’ communion service I ever attended as a girl or young woman had the pastor threatening that God may kill us right there in the service if we took communion with unrepented sin. Terrified me as a girl. Now it pisses me off.

  • http://www.bodysoulblissyoga.com Jamie Brown

    I found this blog post surprising for 2 reasons:

    1. You forgot to mention the Sleestack hairdo (Land of the Lost), which IMO Mr. Driscoll’s most closely resembles.

    2. Driscoll was actually speaking in SUPPORT of women?! (well, sort of; except that men are not allowed to touch our dirty bodies after Communion)

    • http://www.johilder.com Jo Hilder

      In support of women? If Driscoll spoke to my son or husband in that tone, I’d put him over my knee. I don’t want some misogynist bully claiming to speak for me. Does he think the man he alludes to in that video are getting away with the sly looks, the elbowing and the browbeating at home? Maybe his own wife puts up with it, but if she does, she is hardly representative of the rest of her gender. I am as not impressed by Mr. Driscolls verbal tirade as he probably wishes. I don’t feel *defended* as a woman by this – I feel embarrassed for him.

      • http://brickandtimber.wordpress.com/ DR

        He’s got some serious, serious issues with women. He essentially explains how he told his wife that in order for him to be less stressed, he needed more sex. That it wasn’t up for discussion, she just needed to figure out how to make it happen.

        He also told a woman to “shut up” who was getting to close to “teaching”. He made his wife feel horribly for cutting her hair after she had a baby, she was devastated by his reaction.

        The fact that women defend him literally make me SICK to my stomach. I’m not even angry at him, really, he is mentally ill and needs a lot of help. But that reasonable, smart, educated women actually go to this church and buy into this bullshit – how they literally follow the mantra to “stop thinking so much – makes me realize how many women really do select to be helpless and miserable because frankly, it’s just easier.

        They willingly give their own power to these men – to these kinds of churches – and it’s time to start talking about that. I’m not talking about women who’ve grown up in churches like these and are indoctrinated, I get that’s a long journey of awareness. I’m talking about super smart women who go to these places and choose to give their critical thinking away because living lives as second citizens means they don’t have to work as hard. I saw it at Mars Hill when I lived in Seattle, people who live there know exactly what I’m talking about.

        I’m done giving these women a pass, these mothers, these wives, these single, smart, super-educated women who give their power and their lives away to people like this. I don’t feel sorry for you (anymore). You choose to go there, you actually put your *children* in line of sight with this dangerous theology and then they grow up and cause nightmares for everyone else. Someone has to stop the pattern and ladies, guess what – it’s you. It’s us.

        • http://brickandtimber.wordpress.com/ DR

          (Not “you” as in *you*, Jo. I’m speaking to Mars Hill women who go to this church or churches like it.)

          • http://Www.johilder.co Jo Hilder

            Totally got that. For a moment I thought I’d have to put you over my knee. Just kidding. :)

          • http://brickandtimber.wordpress.com/ DR

            TRY IT SISTER.

            :P

        • Will

          DR, you’re right. It is mystifying why these woman give their power away and literally sacrifice their daughters to religious abusers. This might explain some of it.

          In psychology, Stockholm Syndrome is an apparently paradoxical psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.

          (“Understanding Stockholm Syndrome”. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin)

      • Will

        Jo Hilder wrote; “If Driscoll spoke to my son or husband in that tone, I’d put him over my knee.”

        Not to be kinky but historically speaking. Through the ages men who have publicly assumed the kind of caricature caveman masculinity that Driscoll is displaying in his chest-beating buffoonery are often caught paying to be spanked and dominated. Just sayin’ there is a pattern.

        • http://Www.johilder.co Jo Hilder

          Indeed :)

  • Roger Wolsey via Facebook
  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Laurie-White-McNeece/100000346286270 Laurie White McNeece via Facebook

    Thank you Roger.

  • LSS

    The mental images were better before i read the article, because i was imagining a real elephant! Like, in the room. However, it is a good idea.

  • http://www.johilder.com Jo Hilder

    Awwwww……look what you made me write. :P

    She Won’t Let Me Wear The Pants Or Stick My Thingy In Her, And Other Pressing Problems Facing The Church Today.

    http://www.johilder.com/?p=2470

    • Will

      Me Man. Bible and thingy make me master.

      You rib woman. You make me sammich. :D

      • Diana A.

        Too funny!

      • Jeannie

        LOL!

    • http://www.barnmaven.com Barnmaven

      Jo, you are my new girl crush.

    • Diana A.

      I’m so posting this to my facebook!

      • http://Www.johilder.co Jo Hilder

        :)

    • http://allegro63.wordpress.com sdgalloway

      OH!! Love it! Love it!!

    • textjunkie

      awesome. :)

  • Jack Allen

    PSYCHO!!!!!

  • Jeannie

    Should come with a disclaimer to not watch with coffee. Now I have to clean my screen! LOL! That is too funny.

  • Anon

    John, I think your idea about Mark Driscoll was right on. Young people are attracted to that kind of black and white “bold” (or is it just obstensibly arrogant) leadership.

    It was really weird watch the “How dare you clip”. I mentally realized he was trying to defend women. I recognized in him the kind of heavy handed, top-down style of leadership I sat under for decades. Ironically these were some of the “godly” men who insisted on my purity and arranged my marriage to my ex husband.

    His screaming triggered a very bad response in me because it reminded me of how my ex used to talk to me. And in the end, I wondered how many women got beaten or otherwise abused that day by husbands/boyfriends who were pissed at Mark, but blamed their women.

  • Marcey

    I used to be a teacher, and I have quite a few young FB friends who just quoted this guy today. Personally, I find him vile. However, I know these kids’ greatest pastime in hs was playing violent video games, and these young people’s senses are numb. Hopefully, this guy serves as a right of passage for the young people who follow him. When they are 30 or 40, maybe they can look back at their “Driscoll days” and laugh.

  • http://harmony7 chris

    This is incredible! I thought I was the only one that thought that the elephant man (mark driscoll) is a psycho!

    I am very glad that this guy is being EXPOSE for what he really is.

    DR I am definitely with you. Professing to be wise, they became fools.

  • Peet
  • Tracy

    You nailed it. Young person I know who just joined a conservative church said, and I quote: “I had all these questions, and finally, somebody had answers!” Uh, too bad.

    Maybe those of us who are less dogmatic could learn a thing or two. Maybe instead of saying “its complicated” all the time, we could offer some real intellectual engagement. It would sure help if there were more books out there like your John, stuff we could give people to engage them.

  • Angela Page

    I am sickened by this… only got through about 2 and a half minutes. This man is not only psycho but a misogynist. I am sorry but when I was unmarried and having sex even though I am merely a girl I was still able to decide when and if it occurred. This man and his attitudes have helped create the rape culture. It is not in a man’s power to decide how I will behave or on what basis I have a relationship with God. I do not think that yelling at people is ever an effective way to accomplish a goal. It’s childish and demeaning. This guy is a joke, a very scary joke.

  • Annie

    “God might kill you right here to make an example of you!” Really? REALLY??? Are you SERIOUS? How dare you presume to speak to God’s children in that bullying, arrogant, dismissive, unloving way. How dare you.

    Please don’t try to defend me, Mr Driscoll, I’m more than capable of defending myself – better than you can. You have major anger issues and an appalling attitude to other people that screams to me “Narcissist!” Possibly even to the level of personality disorder. You need help.

  • Anna

    I need to read some more of the comments, excuse me if I’ve repeated what you’ve said. But, that video. I get this feeling that Driscoll is yelling like an abusive authority figure (maybe dad?) did to him. When I was a kid, I dealt with my dad’s verbal abuse. I swear. This could be a transcript, or at the very least a good approximation, of what a religious version of my dad would have been like. Wow. I feel bad for Driscoll. I feel worse for his sheep, his flock, especially the women and gender-non conforming people. Much more. But still. This guy can’t be such a rage-aholic without some kind of reason…(Not defending him. I think he acts like a brute and a bully.)

  • http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

    I don’t even have to read this to start giggling…all because of the pictures. then I read and sprain my torso from laughing

  • BarbaraR

    All I can look at is that pointy Ed Grimley hairdo. Then he turns all Sam Kinison in the video. Deeply weird.

  • john craske

    That was a seriously funny piece.


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