John Piper: God Called. You’re fired.

This morning famous evangelical pastor John Piper tweeted this:

Dear John Piper: If you’re going to present to the world a toxically bigoted thought (much less one masquerading as a Christian tenet), at least have the c0jones to claim that thought as your own. Make the point yourself; don’t hide behind someone else’s words.

Remember: the only thing worse than a self-righteous hate monger is a passive-aggressive self-righteous hate monger. (Although, as I wrote in New Anti-Gay Presbyterian Denomination: Cowardly Lions, it’s always encouraging when someone can’t force their mouth to say what their heart surely knows is wrong. It means there’s hope for them yet.)

Oh, and God called and left a message for you. I wrote it down and scanned it:

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About John Shore

John Shore (who, fwiw, is straight) is the author of UNFAIR: Christians and the LGBT Question, and three other great books. He is founder of Unfundamentalist Christians (on Facebook here), and executive editor of the Unfundamentalist Christians group blog.  (In total John's two blogs receive some 250,000 views per month.) John is also co-founder of The NALT Christians Project, which was written about by TIME,  The Washington Post, and others. His website is JohnShore.com. John is a pastor ordained by The Progressive Christian Alliance. You're invited to like John's Facebook page. And don't forget to sign up for his mucho awesome monthly newsletter.

  • Anna Murray via Facebook

    lol, John You rock! <3

  • Anna Murray via Facebook

    lol, John You rock! <3

  • Robin Cohn Boyles via Facebook

    If God could fire those that preached a gospel of hate, Christianity would have a whole different face to it!

    • Brenda Conry

      There’s be a lot of job openings.

  • Robin Cohn Boyles via Facebook

    If God could fire those that preached a gospel of hate, Christianity would have a whole different face to it!

  • William George Cook via Facebook

    I typically don’t allow myself the freedom to use suck language against Christians, but fuck this guy.

  • William George Cook via Facebook

    I typically don’t allow myself the freedom to use suck language against Christians, but fuck this guy.

  • Dave Bowling

    Well said, John.

    • Dave Bowling

      That is – John shore, not John Piper.

  • http://www.facebook.com/douglas.sewell Doug Sewell via Facebook

    The church is the faithful (full of faith) in Christ. Many GLBT folk qualify.

  • http://chiefy.cafenexo.com/ Steven Baudoin

    Good point. “True church” — that gives me an idea for a post of my own. Thanks.

  • Melissa Chamberlin

    Once again a “preacher” has taken it upon himself to get his dirty little hands in someone else’s life and has determined that God is angry. Does this sound familiar? He even fired you! Can’t he find someone else to monitor? I am sure that God delivered this personal message to him that God, himself, is unable to handle this one, you know, because God is no longer omniscient or omnipotent, and God needs HIS humble servant, errr, jerk to set you straight. (Ha! straight…I am killing me) Wow! God really thinks he is important, huh? I wonder if Mr. Preacher man can scootch over and give you a little room in that seat next to the Almighty’s throne so you can learn the true message of the Bible (aka church…facepalm) ? I wonder if he is up to the task of discipling you, John, and Wolfhart Pennenberg’s theology can be your first Bible study. I read somewhere (probably in my well worn Bible..forgive me, I don’t remember the address, it is somewhere in Gospel according to Piper..or was that Leviticus?) that Wolfhart was one of Jesus’s personal disciples and that one day, his word would supersede anything else written in the Bible. John, you really should read your Bible more often. Praise God that Piper has set you on the (straight HA!) and narrow path to a truer understanding of the Church…err God.

    Peace out, man. Carry on!

    • Melissa Chamberlin

      Ok, nevermind. I read the above wrong. I thought Piper fired you. Now I cannot erase my message. hahahaha, I hate it when that happens.

      • Diana A.

        Me too, Melissa! Me too!

      • Don Rappe

        I think your reading of it was very creative.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

          Don: I thought that too! That’s why I didn’t delete it.

          • cat rennolds

            all of which only intensifies the hilarity of your original blog and melissa’s original response…..

  • http://www.facebook.com/debquilty Deb Quilty via Facebook

    The history of the church is full of christians who are politicaly incorect is God going to fire them all?

    • Brena

      Well, John Piper said I was no longer eligible to be a Christian. I really don’t see why they can fire us but we can’t fire them? For a very long time those who were pacifist Christians ran away from countries ruled by the “you’re fired” (excomunicated/shunned) type of church. There is no place to run. I agree with John Shore. If we fire them consistantly and often from being the approved spokesperson of God then maybe it will get easier to hear what Jesus had to say to all of us and what God has never stopped saying, “Do good whenever you can.”

      We all have the spirit of truth given to us and I listent to it even when it puts me at odds with public opinion. So, I got the same memo. John Piper can’t push me out of Christianity because he has been fired.

      • DR

        LOVE.

      • Lymis

        Brena,

        I love it.

        At the same time, Piper said we weren’t part of a true Church. He didn’t say we can’t be following Jesus, because he can’t. All these people can do – and it’s what they’ve repeatedly done to me, with some success, is kick me out of their branch of the fan club.

        They cannot keep me from having my own relationship with God.

        I fired the lot of them ages ago. Threw out a good share of the good with the bad, but that was in self-defense. It’s wonderful to know there are people like John and so many here working from within.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      “Politically incorrect.” If Brena hadn’t taken the time to respond to your vicious little spit, Deb, I’d have deleted that comment and blocked you off this site. Shame on you.

      • Brena

        She was defending us. She posts later that she had her John’s confused and can’t delete the comments. Oops! :)

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

          I was answering Deb above, not Melissa below.

          • Brena

            oh

          • Brena

            Typing under the influence of migraine this morning! Blushies ^_^

  • Kimberly Moser Musci Phillips via Facebook

    Thomas Jefferson (literally) cut Jesus’ miracles out of his Bible, because he found them inconceivable. So maybe Piper should just check his Bible to make sure he’s not simply missing whole sections of the NT, like Matthew 23 and James 3.

  • Brena

    Hatred has the ability to hide in a crowd and behind old ignorance. Kindness and freedom require bravery. When Jesus stopped the men from stoning Mary he had to do it alone standing in the vulnerable place with her. When white people agreed with civil rights they had to march with the oppressed and risk arrests and beatings with them. When the muslims occupying Tahir Square stopped to pray throughout the days, it was the Christians who surrounded them to protect them. The very act of hiding in the crowd to throw judgement and hate from a distance should be a warning sign that you are on the wrong side of the struggle.

    • Christie L.

      “The very act of hiding in the crowd to throw judgement and hate from a distance should be a warning sign that you are on the wrong side of the struggle.”

      Perfect. Thank you!

  • Gordon

    Is it a good thing or a bad thing that I had never heard of John Piper until today?

  • http://www.facebook.com/nwbuckeye Pat Hux via Facebook

    Piper, that old turd blossom. still around after all these years….. my my.

  • http://www.facebook.com/douglas.sewell Doug Sewell via Facebook

    Piper has written some good stuff, but this is definitely not one of them.

    • DR

      This is an abusive, evil posture and it diminishes anything good he’s ever said.

  • http://kingmaalbert@hotmail.com Al

    If John Piper were to substitute the word “Jew” or “black” for “homosexual”, the bigotry behind his words would be obvious to most, if not all, people.

    That said, John Shore should really use his own arguments to counter Piper. By saying that God called and left a message for Piper, “You’re Fired”, he’s really making the same mistake Piper is, in assuming he’s speaking for God. God’s message is one of love, even for the ignorant, and it’s important to remember that when we address those who disagree with us.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      Al: you must be new here. Welcome! But, boy, do you ever not know my work.

      Here’s what amounts to the culmination of it, relative to this topic:

      http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/wings-on-a-pig-why-the-christian-view-of-gays-doesnt-work/

      • http://kingmaalbert@hotmail.com Al

        I am new here and I do appreciate what I’ve read of your work. I’m just saying that attacking and belittling anti-gay “Christians” may not be the best way to have the debate over gay rights. When I read what guys like Piper and Phelps and their kind have to say, I feel like buying a gun and settling this debate the old-fashioned way. But in the end that just brings me down to their level, doesn’t it?

        Sometimes it’s best just to let them foam at the mouth and let them make fools of themselves . That way people who aren’t clear about how hurtful the abuse of these guys is, can see them for the lunatic bigots they are.

        Anyhow, thanks for giving me the opportunity to speak. I love this site and appreciate the work you’re doing on behalf of people like myself. Cheers!

        • Diana A.

          “When I read what guys like Piper and Phelps and their kind have to say, I feel like buying a gun and settling this debate the old-fashioned way.” LOL!

          I do think that there is a difference between Piper and Phelps even though they are both spouting the same BS. Phelps is an abusive sociopath and is just as hateful to his own family as to everybody else. Piper is a confirmed fundamentalist who’s afraid that if he reconsiders his position, he will end up in a one way handbasket to Hell. If one is trying to disarm an opponent, it is helpful to understand the nuances of his/her position.

    • DR

      This is the dumbest thing Christians say and I’m tired of it. Calling out ABUSE is not “speaking for God”. When, exactly, did Christians lose their common sense and the ability to identify unloving behavior vs. not tolerating abuse? Do you love abusers as they are abusing? Is that your first priority, to ensure that the abuser feels loved and ok? That you just lovingly disagree with them? NO. You focus on the victim for God’s sake. You focus on first, telling the abuser the truth about their abuse and doing so candidly.

      It’s so scary that we’ve perverted God’s message to mean that we aren’t harsh and direct with those that are doing damage. We’ve lost the understanding of anger being righteous, being holy and sometimes being the only activating agent we have against someone so they will wake up and see what they’re doing.

      • http://kingmaalbert@hotmail.com Al

        I don’t think I said anything in defence of abusers but if that’s your opinion then I’m sorry you took my words that way.

        • DR

          Al, here’s the deal. You and the others here who tone police those like John who are directly confronting the Christian theology (and those who choose to express it out loud in public) and scold them for their “belittling anti-gays” (your words, not mine) are actually trying to change the focus on the victims of this kind of horrifying remark . You may not be aware that you’re doing it but you focusing on the tone and language of people who are calling out abuse and evil (which it is) create needless noise around the actual intent of addressing Piper’s abuse. Which might help him and others like him who are inadvertently destroying gay kids and creating adults who barely survive Christianity and want nothing to do with it as a result.

        • Mindy

          Al, the point is – DR, correct me if I’m wrong – that you said, essentially, that John S. stooped to John P.’s level by “speaking for God.” Even though anyone with sense – you included, I imagine – understands that John S. was using snarky humor with his Post-It from God. And by doing so, you are saying that they are both wrong. DR is trying to help you understand the difference between what John S. did and what John P. did. Shore is calling out Piper for hate-mongering, for inciting Christians to continue to spread hate and lies about gay people in the name of God. Piper wouldn’t have shared the quote if if he didn’t believe it and want his followers to agree with it, right? So he is perpetuating the abuse of LGBTQ people by Christians. Shore, on the other hand, is calling Piper – ONE GUY – out for hating in the name of God. That is NOT the same thing as what Piper did, not by a long shot. By calling him out, Shore is working to protect and defend those who might be vulnerable to the hate Piper spews and encourages. He is standing up to something a loving God could never approve – hate, which we know grows into abuse and violence because we’ve seen hundreds upon hundreds of examples of it.

          It’s easy to say that greeting hate with anger is the wrong approach, but when the anger is in defense of the vulnerable, methinks it is entirely, morally, ethically and righteously justified. If you haven’t read John Shore’s most recent book, please do so.

          • http://kingmaalbert@hotmail.com Al

            Thanks, Mindy. I appreciate the feedback.

          • DR

            Yes. Thank you!

          • vj

            “but when the anger is in defense of the vulnerable, methinks it is entirely, morally, ethically and righteously justified”

            Mindy for the win!

            We are called to break the yoke of oppression and set the captives free – I don’t see how that can be done without getting angry at the oppression and enslavement in the first place.

  • Jim

    John Piper is fired? I never thought he had been hired.

  • http://www.facebook.com/DianeReischling Diane Re via Facebook

    @Deb Quilty: Piper isn’t “politically incorrect”, this stance is evil and abusive and let’s do hope that God fires him because it sure doesn’t look like anyone else is going to do it.

  • Kristyn Whitaker hood

    Well, considering the history of “True churches” : Inquisition, Holy War, politics, power plays, bigotry, ignorance, inequality, televangelists, and the like; who wants to be a “true church?” It’s time to be a new church!

    • Brian W

      I don’t know about a “new” one, but certianly back to an “original” one, like we read in the book of Acts and Paul’s epistles

      • Kristyn Whitaker hood

        As a woman, I’m not all that fond of some of the passages in those epistles to the “original” church: “Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. 35If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.” 1 Cor 14: 34 and 35 :-P

        P.S. I always like to point this passage out to any woman who uses Paul’s writings against LGBT people. Sucks the self righteousness right out of ‘em :D

        • Brian W

          A more thorough study of the historical context and culture in Corinth at the time Paul penned the epistle will reveal why he wrote that. Very few churches hold to those verses as dogmatic practice today. When we read the Pauline epistles we must keep in mind we’re reading someone else’s mail. Though it wasn’t written to us (21st century believers) it most certainly was written FOR us. So we must study in depth to fully understand and determine how it applies today.

        • otter

          oooohhhh! great strategy!

          Stealing it!

          • Kristyn Whitaker hood

            Spot on, Brian. That’s really what I mean, when I say “new church”–one that makes it a point to study Biblical passages within their historical context–one that realizes that nothing should be put above loving our neighbors as ourselves. Too often, churches have used face value Biblical passages to uphold existing prejudices, rather than strive to keep Jesus’ commands to love each other.

          • Brian W

            How true, when churches “selectively literalize” verses outside of their historic and cultural context the result many times is religious bondage instead of Christian liberty.

  • Brian W

    John Piper has written some good stuff, but this statement seems so out of character for such an esteemed and knowledgable Bible scholar and he took the care not to “plagerize” the statement and site the author. Why is there such a fixation on homosexuality?

    • DR

      Because he’s not held accountable for it, people give him a pass because he’s said so much other “good stuff”.

    • Donald Rappe

      “WHY is there such a fixation…” A good question, I think.

  • Brian W

    Remember everyone, we are to rise above and love our enemies, do we? I read on this blog regularly about how important it is that we love, Love, LOVE, that too, my fellow readers, includes people like John Piper. Let’s not just point fingers, let’s look in the mirror and at that log sticking out of our own eye.

    • http://blog.mattalgren.com Matt Algren

      To soften and obscure condemnation of those who do spiritual violence is to condone and further propagate that spiritual violence.

      • Brian W

        Does that preclude us from loving our enemies? Call it like it is for sure, but always in the spirit of love. As Jesus did.

        • Karen

          Respectfully, I’ve never witnessed a “Christian” call it like they see it “in the spirit of love”. I’m not sure that many really know how.

          • Brian W

            Karen,

            Yes indeed, tough to do, especially since Jesus himself was “toughest” on the hypocrisy of the spiritual leaders of his day.

        • http://blog.mattalgren.com Matt Algren

          Your comment amounts to “Don’t be mean, you guys!” I seem to remember Jesus saying something about whited sepulchres and turning over the tables of the John Pipers of his day.

          Explain to me the “spirit of love” that should accompany the rejection of John Piper’s attitude, which without question aids and abets the dehumanization, demonization, and, yes, death of gay kids. Sorry, I’m more concerned with showing a “spirit of love” toward his victims.

          (Tangent: People tend to read Matthew 23 as Jesus weeping sad tears for those who stood against God. The older I get, the more I see Jesus’ tears of rage on behalf of their victims.)

        • DR

          Brian, you’ve had some very tough language regarding the “evils” in the educational system or the political system. I think you should challenge yourself to figure out why you allow tough talk to be ok in one context and yet you challenge it within the areas that perhaps, make you feel defensive?

    • DR

      Bullshit. I’m not saying this kind of thing about gay men and women – a lot of people aren’t. There is no self-reflection to be had, here. You either believe this kind of thing and as a result, you are responsible for the gay kids who kill themselves as a result or you don’t and you start holding the John Pipers of the world accountable for it. Brian, simply put? It’s time for you to pick a lane.

      • Brian W

        DR,

        Just because someone has a different belief on homosexuality than you do, does that then mean we are not to “love your enemy”? DR is your basis whether you love someone conditional on their “lane” on homosexuality, because it appears it does to you. You too need to “pick a lane” if you believe you should love your enemy, regardless of their stand on homosexuality, or not. Is God’s love for sinners conditional on their belief on homosexuality?

        Fundies are continually ridiculed and mocked on here because of their obsession on how they focus in on beliefs over action (love), yet many on here do the same – making your belief of homosexuality the barometer of whether you’re “good” or “bad” and you must “pick a lane and take a stand” on homosexuality first and Jesus second. Who is more accepted on this blog a God denying atheist who basically doesn’t believe in the concept of sin or a believer that happens to believe the same gender sexual relationships is sin? The answer is obvious I think, your beliefs on homosexuality trumps your beliefs about God.

        • DR

          Someone who has a “different belief” than I do is actually hurting said homosexuals with their belief, Brian. You consistently take the position when someone calls out anti-gay rhetoric that we are somehow not “loving our enemy” and it’s BS. It’s time for you to take a hard look in the mirror and really ask yourself why you get so defensive and continue to attack the tone and manner in which anti-gay behavior is called out instead of the behavior itself. It is, no one can do that work for you. But it’s time for you to do it.

          I’m not going to even address the ridiculousness of what trumps what in my belief system because simply put, it is your defensiveness that is causing you to try to put the attention back on me and I’m not going to let you do it. Done with giving you a pass for that kind of thing, my friend. Start facing yourself. Do it quickly.

          • Brian W

            DR,

            I don’t get defensive on how people call out anti-gay rhetoric on here, any more than I do anti-fundie posts. If a person believes Islam is wrong and it’s doctrine concerning Christ and Christianity is sin, does that mean the person hates Muslims? No it does not. In fact though Islam looks at Christians as infidels and yes many even hate Christians, I’m still to love Muslims for Christ’s sake. I’m to love my enemies. If I believe that atheism is sin, that doesn’t mean I hate atheists. DR, I read on here constantly how important love is and how God is love, yet that love does not seem to extend to fundies or “your enemies”. Look John Piper’s comment was wrong and I’m sure hurtful to homosexuals, it fact it appalls and saddens me that he would say such a thing. What really galvanizes people on this site? Is it Christ? Christianity? Love for God and the Bible? To me it seems two issues: a disdain for Christian fundamentalism and to those that interpret the Bible that homosexuality is a sin. Love is extended to everyone but them because they’re peddlers of hate. Many fundies are narrow minded and yes, even self-righteous that their beliefs are the most biblically supported (especially regarding homosexuality), but that doesn’t give us a license to hold such hate in our hearts towards them. Perhaps I’m wrong but based on the language some people use on here toward them, it comes through as hate. We are to love even those that we want to “hate”, that is the core of what Christianity is all about.

          • DR

            I think you confuse feeling good with love, Brian. Words used here are angry and direct. As someone who’s been a victim of abuse myself, someone actually getting *angry* over my situation was what it took for me to realize that I needed to get out of it, that I had the right to be angry too.

            That you consistently insert phrases like “hate in our hearts” is – I have to tell you – super unsettling and really creepy. You do it consistently. There’s no hate here and you substituting that word is more about you than it is about anyone else here.

            There’s anger. Rage, even, at what some have done and in Piper’s case, *still do unapologetically* to the GLBT community. I guess you can continue to reserve whatever righteous anger you do have to tone police those who are actually trying to change the abuse, though. But don’t be surprised when you get people who get super frustrated and angry with you as you do so. You’ve got to start really opening your mind to why that is.

          • Brian W

            DR,

            You’re right, I actually can be confusing rage with hate and I do appreciate our conversations on here DR, they always get through my thick skull and get me thinking, so thanks!!

          • DR

            I hope you trust and know that I adore you. If you don’t, know it and trust it.

        • Allie

          Love your enemy doesn’t mean you have to pretend they’re okay as they are.

          John’s “You’re fired,” is flippant, but not nasty. Anyone who has read John for any length of time knows he’s habitually flippant. It’s funny picturing a sanctimonious old fool mouthing off about gay people without any real care for the consequences getting a post-it note from God. I don’t think most of us would say half the shit we say if we truly believed God were listening.

          • Diana A.

            “I don’t think most of us would say half the shit we say if we truly believed God were listening.”

            True that! Or do half the shit we do if we truly believed God was looking.

    • Don Rappe

      I find nothing unloving in John’s response to Piper. Some large hogs need a pretty hard clubbing on the snout just to get their attention. What if John’s clubbing got his attention and led to his repentance and salvation. That would be a good thing, wouldn’t it? I recall Martin Luther’s self defense against the charge that he was, like John Huss, accusing the pope of being the anti-Christ. He declared that if the pope would repent and turn to God he could be saved as well as any other sinner. Luther believed it was the office of the papacy, not the pope, which was anti-Christ.

  • Shelley Krasean Flavell via Facebook

    ‘the church that approves of women who don’t cover their heads in that church by that act ceases to be a church………’. AND if a woman speaks out in church in addition to not covering her head, that woman will spontaneously combust and blind everyone who looks at her. Woe to you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Long/100000240259371 Mike Long via Facebook

    So how is your suggestion that God has fired John Piper any less that of a hate monger than what he twittered?

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      I’ll leave you to figure that out, Mike.

    • cat rennolds

      Allow me, John. Short answer: Because John Piper is very unlikely to go home and shoot himself over John’s opinion. Next?

  • http://www.facebook.com/JohnShoreFans John Shore via Facebook

    I’ll leave you to figure that out, Mike.

  • Pastor Mike

    So how is your suggestion that God has fired John Piper any less that of a hate monger than what he twittered?

    • mike moore

      John Piper’s declaration – the condemnation of homosexuals, the quick sweeping aside others’ sincere beliefs, the vile judgment of honest people of faith who disagree with his theology – is a message of hate, not love.

      I think John Shore is saying a guy like Piper, spreading hate and hiding it behind someone else’s words, is, by definition, a bad Pastor. Which means Piper’s not doing the job God hired him to do, which is how one gets fired.

      Capisce?

    • DR

      Because John Piper’s comments are reflective of the reason why gay kids kill themselves – Christians who believe this are responsible for creating the gay bashing culture that drives them to believe they are eternally condemned to hell – and John’s comments are to call people like Piper out on their evil and abusive positions and their public expressions of said positions in order to protect the victims of this belief system.

    • Lymis

      Seriously?

      Piper made a sweeping statement that potentially millions of people who are members of churches who affirm any sort of homosexual relationships are out of right relation to God – in short, not only going to hell, but dragging others to hell with them. This is regardless of how those people otherwise conduct their lives, how God speaks to them in their hearts, how loving and whole those relationships are. He condemns thousands if not millions of people he doesn’t know for thoughts, feelings, and behaviors he can’t know, based on what he assumes is true of them.

      John looked at the specific words of a specific individual, judged them to be unworthy of someone speaking for Jesus – you remember, the guy who hung out with the tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, as well as the socially approved sorts of his day – and said that he doesn’t have any right to be speaking for all Christians, much less for God.

      There’s a serious question which is more hateful?

    • cat rennolds

      And I repeat: Because John Piper is very unlikely to go home and shoot himself because of the opinion of John Shore.

      I think I’m just gonna keep saying this.

    • Allie

      Get behind me, Satan. It’s truly nasty to argue that someone who complains that someone hurt someone is the same as having hurt someone. This is an argument of the Devil, it takes truth and turns it upside down and inside out, and you should be ashamed of yourself for making it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Long/100000240259371 Mike Long via Facebook

    You’re dodging the question. You are suggesting that because John Piper asserts through the quote that the true church would not condone homosexual practice, he is disqualified as someone who works for God. Seem like both of you are suggesting that someone is apostate. What makes you the superior judge here?

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      Mike Long: My morality makes me the superior judge here.

      • Pastor Mike

        So it’s OK for you to condemn another because you’re right. I get it.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

          “Pastor” Mike: It’s more than okay for me to condemn another for what he says when he condemns a whole class of people for what they are: it’s a moral obligation. I have no idea what your sense of moral obligation tells you to do, say, or write. Best with that.

          • abracadabra

            Saying someone is doing a bad job (i.e., being a bad official representative of the church/God) is not the same as saying someone’s relationship with God is null and void.

            I am really NOT qualified to judge whether an individual or group is “right with God.” I do think I am qualified to assess whether they are doing a good or bad job of conveying that fruits of that relationship to the world. It is a fairly objective question: are people encouraged to or discourage from improving their relationship with God and others?

            I could be wrong, but I certainly didn’t read Shore’s post as arguing that bigotry separates Piper from God (injures his relationship with God, sure) as Piper argues engaging in homosexual relationships, or even accepting that others may in good conscience, does.

        • DR

          You know Mike, you are being pretty aggressive in challenging John, here. What makes you the superior judge in deciding which tone and attitude is appropriate for condemning unChristlike behavior?

          Don’t play a game that you’ll never win yourself. Perhaps it’s unconscious on your part but you’re diverting the subject from the actual topic which is anti-gay behavior. The last time I checked, John’s comments weren’t pushing fragile gay kids to kill themselves. John Piper’s theology does. How about you put the microscope on the actual *impact* of John Piper’s words instead of those with the courage to call him out on it.

          • cat rennolds

            this is why I should read all the comments before I post….;)

  • Shelley Krasean Flavell via Facebook

    Tweeted.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Caroline-Miller/500786293 Caroline Miller via Facebook

    I wouldn’t exactly call identifying a truly insidious dogma as what is “hate mongering.”

  • Mike Kear via Facebook

    The word “pusillanimous” comes to mind. :D

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jennifer-Edwards/1196313106 Jennifer Edwards via Facebook

    Jesus said, “Wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am also (Matthew 18:20).” I can’t seem to find the passage where He says, “but only if they’re straight.” I don’t think Mr. Piper is in any position to judge what is or isn’t a church.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Caroline-Miller/500786293 Caroline Miller via Facebook

    Agreed! Thank you, John, for being the polar opposite of pusillanimous :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Benjamin-Lin/603820493 Benjamin Lin via Facebook

    Now I know why I am not and have never been a fan of Piper.

  • Jeanne Wiles via Facebook

    …I have never used pusillanimous in a sentence before…..but I am going to start tomorrow !

  • http://www.facebook.com/valeriebarlowhorton Valerie Barlow Horton via Facebook

    Hearing supposedly “Christian” men say things with so much hate it makes me want to cry. Growing up I never thought I would feel ashamed of being a Christian but I am. I am a follower of Christ and I love and respect my fellow man. How can my philosophy be so different from thiers?

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      Because you’re a hippie—obviously. Shame!!

    • Driftwood2K11

      Please don’t be ashamed to be a Christian, Valerie. There are still so many wonderful Christians out there who broadcast that message of love and hope. Be the stronger voice that speaks softly and sweetly.

  • Jeanne Wiles via Facebook

    …I am Catholic, imagine how I feel ???? LOL! I am not ashamed- I am disapointed- people suck. We just have to hang with those who don’t.

  • http://allegro63.wordpress.com sdgalloway

    Ok. I must ask. Who is John Piper?

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      You don’t want to know.

      • http://allegro63.wordpress.com sdgalloway

        Fair enough. If he is more of the same who espouses the whole limited view that God only cares about you if you meet this very strict criteria, then I really don’t want to know, do I?

        • cat rennolds

          Yes, we do want to know. So we can dodge.

  • http://somaticstrength.wordpress.com somaticstrength

    Whenever people pull the “aren’t you just as bad” all I hear is “sure fine whatever someone punched you in the face uh huh yeah okay that’s bad but but BUT you said ‘that hurt’ and c’mon, aren’t you being just as mean???”

    • LSS

      Yeah. That.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Nea-Bryant/100000197161695 Nea Bryant via Facebook

    i’m tired of explaining to people that i’m catholic because i love god and my brothers and sisters. NOT because i am a racist, a sexist, or a homophobe! i saw we take back religion from these clowns. they don’t get to play with us anymore. they NEED a time out. maybe if they stop being jerks they can talk about god again. in the mean time, they need to shut their hateful face holes and listen to the word! maybe they can start with corinthians 13:4-7.

  • LSS

    cAjones are drawers, the kind you keep your socks in, not the kind you keep your cOJones in.

    Other than that, way to “speak truth to power”.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      right. duh. thank you. changed.

      • LSS

        Gracias :-)

  • Larry Munoz via Facebook

    as a kid growing up in around 90% catholics, including my own family and relatives…it was evident that the church was still imposing the church’s belief (NOT A GOD BELIEF or BIBLICAL BELIEF) that Jews killed Jesus christ! That was 5 decades ago. a few years ago, nazi youth Ratzinger decided to address this issue. RELIGION is still a choice! NOONE is forced to believe, it’s all by choice and there are so so may religions to choose from, who actually do believe what you believe. I just would like to know, when does it actually affect those of faith, when your religious leaders are leading you astray?

  • Larry Munoz via Facebook

    …this “my religion is better than yours” “my beliefs or my religion is the true religion” will forever be a flaw in RELIGION until those with a belief in GOD, actually start believing in GOD and not their church!

  • Mary

    I just read some of John Piper’s blog. Rolling my eyes.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      Wow. There’s that chunk of your life you’ll never get back. Sorry!

      • Driftwood2K11

        Let that be a lesson to you, Mary: never read.

        Wait, that’s not the lesson…

    • Ric Booth

      I read his book, Desiring God, years ago and remember liking it. Now it’s on my book shelf between Love Wins and Penguins. He’s either being squeezed or hugged.

      • vj

        ;-)

  • Rocco

    Saying something from the stage of an institution you label ‘church’ that is anything but the real Church, speaking of said institution, is quite the oxymoron (im sure there’s a better word to put there but I’m no English major)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hannah-Givens/100002425395444 Hannah Givens via Facebook

    I actually really like some of the things he’s said in his books and they’ve been helpful to me, so I just skip over the parts I disagree with. Then he posted that quote and people started “sharing” it at me on FB, and now I’m mad at everyone involved.

  • Kimberly Moser Musci Phillips via Facebook

    We’re supposed to be on guard against–and confront–false teachers. Even (especially) when it requires our standing up to esteemed teachers, theologians, or the establisment religious elite, it’s our responsibility to not be deceived, and to point out tweaked or cherry-picked scripture is being used as the basis for deception. That’s the model we have as Christ-ians.

    It’s a Freudianesque guarantee, whenever somebody pulls out the “don’t judge” admonition, they’re misquoting/misinterpreting its meaning for their own (perhaps subconscious, or “ego defensive”) self-serving purpose.

    What Jesus actually warned is that we will be judged by the same measure we use to judge others. And that we should carefully consider our OWN state of sin, before condemning the sin(s) of anybody else.

  • Julia Simmons via Facebook

    I enjoy your humor. One of my favorite quotes goes something like this: People love to create imaginary enemies so that they can hold it out as something different than themselves. I do want to avoid making them, the fundamentalists (those gay-haters), the bad that it is so easy to accuse them of making me (a lesbian, born again, Jesus-loving Christian). Somewhere in there is dialogue. Maybe nothing will ever change, but I do have one adamant, fundamentalist that God has given me the open door to dialogue with and vehemently disagree with. I love it. We rail at each others’ views and keep loving each other (though I don’t have to interact with him that much). Thanks for what you’re doing here.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lisa.n.weigand Lisa Noelle Weigand via Facebook

    …and your uncommon sense.

  • http://www.facebook.com/diane.rollins.klein Diane Rollins Klein via Facebook

    Actually, I don’t think peoples’ morality gives them any rights at all.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      I do. Sometimes all victims have to save them is the morality of other people. Sure counts then.

      • Brenda R

        “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” – Edmund Burke

        I agree that our morality can make a huge impact and difference.

  • http://ricbooth.wordpress.com Ric Booth

    The church that approves of tweeting global condemnation has by that act ceased to be the true church. Ric Booth

    • Josie

      And one would think Mr. Piper would know that the true Christian soldier never retweets.

      Sorry…cold medicine talking…:-)

      • Diana A.

        Groan!

    • Drew

      Love it!

    • Will

      Can I quote you, Mr Booth? :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hannah-Givens/100002425395444 Hannah Givens via Facebook

    He didn’t say it gave him any rights, just that it made him the superior judge, which it does.

  • Don Rappe

    Wow! I wouldn’t want to argue with Wolfhart Pannenberg, it wouldn’t be fair. He’s a dozen years older than I and I can hardly flex my own mind any more. The out of context quote probably indicates his understanding of homosexual relationships was deficient. Not likely to change now. Piper, who offers no thought behind his abusive tweet, seems to reduce himself to what Paul calls a “noisy trumpet” somewhere in Corinthians. Since Piper is a Baptist, its hard to know what he would mean by “the Church”. I believe it means more than just the community of the faithful (communion of the saints) but also includes the notion of what the Kyrios is doing among us now, as the name “church” implies. We may as well face the fact that both Johns are claiming to speak for God and thus must be judged as prophets. We shall shortly see upon whose altar the Kyrios is sending down its fire. Which prophets come among us crying “Peace” “Peace” where there is no peace. Let those who have ears to hear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Church! (I kind of like this prophesying myself. I hope this doesn’t mean something bad will soon happen to me,)

  • http://www.facebook.com/brena.easterday Brena Easterday via Facebook

    Some wise savior once said that we judge a tree by it’s fruit. And fruit of the spirit is: nurturing, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, excellence, faithfulness, and self-government. Good fruit=good tree=good judge. Elementary.

  • Jack

    \Remember: the only thing worse than a self-righteous hate monger is a passive-aggressive self-righteous hate monger. \

    Speaking as a gay Christian, passive-aggressive self-righteous hate mongers exist on the left side of the spectrum, too.

    Celebrate diversity–as long as you’re just like everyone else.

  • otter

    If John Piper was all in favor of purifying a heretic thru fire, I don’t think any sane person in today’s culture would argue that they were acting as a spokesperson for God. But the Westboro Baptist Trolls can scream “God Hates Fags” until they turn blue and, in my opinion, most foilks in our country have a problem with them disrupting a funeral, but believe they are correct. So this sancitimonious jackass Piper is cut from the same cloth as the Phelps clan. And unless you live, as I do, with the insidious effects of Chritian hate-mongering you might be oblivious to how much damages it causes. When political candidates use their disgust for me as a qualification for office, it is hateful, and yet Christiians condone it.

    When my right to marry, attend my wife in illness, and transfer my property to her taxfree when I die is denied, it is hateful, and most Christians, by their silence, condone it.

    If you mentally substituted a racial group or another religious group for Gay every time you heard it on the media, you would quickly see how ridiculous this un”Christian” view of gays is. Can you Imagine the Phelps Clan holding up a sign that says “God hates Blacks? ” Wouldnt you shout them down to defend your faith from such a slander? Wouldn’t you argue the point?

    So why are John Shore and his followers the first uncompromising defenders I have found for the LGBT community?

    I say Thanks to those who defend us, and Shame to those who don’t! You might not be striking the match but you sure are hauling the wood to the stake.

    • Allie

      Amen.

      Once upon a time, I have to admit, I was one of those who thought, “Why can’t gay people just call it something other than marriage?” Then I noticed how nasty the other people were who were espousing that view. I thought, if THEY think that, there must be something wrong with it, I don’t want to be on the same side as hateful people! Which led to me investigating the matter more deeply, which everyone should do.

      You can’t be “kind of on the fence” about this one. Either you believe all people deserve to be treated decently, the way you would like to be treated, or you don’t. You don’t get to believe gay people deserve to be treated not quite as well as other human beings and pat yourself on the back because you’re better than those who want to burn them at the stake. Unless you’re being a good guy, you’re being a bad guy.

  • http://www.synergebooks.com Annie Nutt

    John Piper’s an idiot. He’d be better off and more accurate by saying, “Any church that approves of child molestation will cease to be a church.” There are big problems in the church, and approving of homosexuality is not one of them. Besides, let’s do the exercise suggested by otter. Mildly homophobic statement: “I don’t have any trouble with gays, I just don’t think they should be able to get married.” Now: “I don’t have any trouble with blacks, I just don’t think they should be able to get married.” Changing one word will really shed light on what an ugly thing it is to try to control the love lives of consenting adults. Speaking of, I believe any 17 years old and older should be able to get married, whether they’re gay, straight, bisexual, etc. Something really stupid that happened a few towns over from where I live, a judge wouldn’t even let an interracial couple get married, even though it’s legal, because he was “thinking about the kids.” Really? That judge was thinking about the kids? That stupid judge was trying to keep those potential kids from existing, the racist jerk, but luckily other judges would certainly marry the couple, and, if all else fails, there’s always pregnancy out of wedlock.

    • LSS

      (*_*) wow. There are places worse than here. (semi-rural SC)

      At least they had no problem with me and my husband marrying. And i have seen loads of b/w and h/w and even a few b/h marriages.

  • Tom Weller

    Otter, I only have one issue with your post. I do NOT defend you. I SUPPORT you and AFFIRM your right to be who you are, what you are, and be free to do so without judgement from me or any other member of humankind. Unfortunately I can only speak for myself.

    You are a member of humankind; the very same humankind that the followers of the philosophy of Jesus Christ are admonished to love. The differences between “Christians” (think Westboro), and “True Christians” is that we who profess to be true, follow that philosophy as closely as we can. And that prohibits us from judgement of another, discrimination or bigotry towards another, prejudice against another or excusion of ANY member of humankind. That is what HE taught; the rest is crap that we flawed members of humankind have created.

    I’ve been engaged in human rights issues since the mid 1960′s. I continue to be today. And I will continue to “SUPPORT” your right to have a safe and happy life with the soul mate of your choice. I will not DEFEND you because you have done nothing to require defense! But my support and affirmation of you will continue to be unwavering. Are we clear? Thanks for your post. And as always, John Shore, thank you this forum. Blessings and Peace be with you.

    • Lymis

      Those are lovely sentiments, but I think you are missing a fundamental point:

      You don’t defend someone because they did something wrong.

      You defend someone because they are being attacked. Whether they did something to deserve the attack or not isn’t really the salient point.

      You support someone when they are going about their business, not hurting anyone, and then you step in to help defend when they are being attacked.

      One of the biggest frustrations of being gay these days is how very many people who “support” and “affirm” us sit silently and passively and allow others to attack us, often attacking us in their name.

      Telling US you support us without telling THEM to stop hurting us is lovely and all, but we really could use more help than that.

      So, please continue your support and affirmation, but frankly, a bit of defense now and again would be quite welcome as well.

      • Drew

        Well said. Thanks for this.

      • DR

        Beautifully said.

      • cat rennolds

        This is wonderful. But I’m ruminating right now on this very thing…and on bullying, and stepping up to protect one another, in general. The reason kids don’t protect each other against bullies is that standing up makes YOU the target. Not only of the bully, but usually of the teacher as well. Good kids, kids who follow rules, can’t even defend themselves without getting in trouble too. How then can we expect them to defend each other?

        If I dare not even step up to defend myself, am not even out of any of my closets in my tiny Southern town, how am I to defend anyone else? Maybe there’s a bravery growing, but it ain’t there yet.

        • Lymis

          When I was in the closet, I found that defending others came easier and was the path to being willing to defend myself. Standing up for racial minorities (including condemning off-color remarks and racist jokes), women (I’m a man), and other minorities, when there was no chance someone was going to assume I was “one of them” helped me understand that yes, I deserved the same equality I was fighting for for others.

          But that was as an adult, when the bullies were more focused in their bullying. With kids, they usually don’t feel the need for their bullying to make any sense, so anyone can be a target. That’s why we can’t put standing up to bullies on the backs of the kids. Adults have to be involved.

          • vj

            “That’s why we can’t put standing up to bullies on the backs of the kids. Adults have to be involved.”

            YES!!! Adults are [supposed to be] the ones with greater perspective and, understanding and life experience; just like we don’t expect children to take care of all their own needs (food, clothing, shelter, etc), we can’t expect them to be solely (or even primarily) responsible for others – that’s way too much of a burden to place on young shoulders.

  • http://beneaththetangles.wordpress.com Charles

    John Piper has deeply and positively affected so many for God’s kingdom. He’s taught us to love God with passion – to live our faith in a way that is about finding joy in God, not following ritualistic religion.

    I enjoy your blog, but I’m really dismayed to see you meet what you see as hate with the same. It’s juvenile and petty, particularly when you’re attacking the tweeting style of an older gentleman. In the short time I’ve followed you, I’ve come to expect much better.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      “Attacking the tweeting style”?

      • LSS

        Yeah it was totally the content, not the style. And it was a really wrong and unfriendly content to like millions of real christians in real churches.

        My sense of humour isn’t entirely compatible with yours but i know what you were doing in this post and it’s something useful. You were telling off the bully (person who uses his power against the powerless).

    • vj

      Just because John Piper has a high profile and has, in the past, written much that can be helpful to those trying to live a Christ-like life DOES NOT mean that EVERYTHING he says/writes/tweets has to be accepted as right. John Piper should know better than to repeat such a blanket condemnation of BELIEVERS in any context – the Church is the Body of Christ, made up of all/any who profess faith in Jesus, and NO-ONE should take it upon themselves to exclude anyone.

      And to pass judgment of this magnitude in a TWEET is just appallingly rude and offensive, not to mention intellectually vapid. At least John Shore had the decency to EXPLAIN his position in a blog post, instead of just throwing a spiritual grenade. John Piper started this nonsense about passing on a ‘message from God’ in a modern format (a tweet); John Shore using a Post-it in response is an entirely appropriate way of satirizing the original offense (the tweet).

    • vj

      Also, the longer you follow John Shore, the more you’ll realize that this is pretty much exactly what you can expect from him…

  • otter

    if you’re standing in front of Shirley Ropery Phelps, leave the sweetness out of it, and bring a can of Raid”, OK ???

    • Diana A.

      Not kind but funny.

  • Tom Weller

    Lymis, I do so appreciate your thoughts, and they are valid. However, you missed my point entirely. I have carried the torch, probably since before you were born. This is not about defense; it has always been about offense. It has always been about interaction with those who would not grant another equality! Sit silently? Oh no Lymis, not me! I go to battle to SUPPORT not defend. And I am quite vocal about it. I, just as is John, am an author, and my thoughts are in print. I’ve been assaulted physically because of my “support”, my words, “defense” your words, of this issue. Don’t misunderstand me, and don’t misinterpret my “affirmation”. I’m exactly what I state in print, and will continue to be so. Blessings and peace be with you.

    • Lymis

      Good to hear.

      Weird distinction, but good to hear.

    • otter

      good for you Tom….please share your stories..?

  • Josie

    Thanks, DR.

    mw…go away….

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ John Shore

      I’ve sent him away.


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