Miami Archbishop to Staff: Support Same-Sex Marriage, Lose Your Job

Archbishop Thomas Wenski, archbishop of Miami, has warned archdiocesan employees that any action in support of Florida’s now-legal same-sex marriage could cost them their jobs. “Because of the Church’s particular function in society,” the archbishop wrote, “certain conduct, inconsistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church, could lead to disciplinary action, including termination, even if it occurs outside the normal working day and outside the strict confines of work performed by the employee for the Archdiocese.” The policy extends to include posts (photos or comments) on social media sites. The preemptive letter by Archbishop Wenski should help to thwart potential complaints, as have occurred in Chicago, in Georgia and in other states, when a church organist or music director has been fired after his homosexual relationship came to light. U.S. District Judge Robert L. Hinkle’s ruling that Florida’s same-sex marriage ban is unconstitutional took effect in all 67 counties at midnight on Monday, January 5.  Couples began marrying immediately,   even though Florida’s attorney general, Pam Bondi, is still pursuing state and federal appeals seeking to uphold the ban approved by voters in 2008.  Bondi’s effort to block these weddings until the courts finally rule was denied by the U.S. Supreme Court; and so Florida has become the 36th state to approve same-sex marriages. Click on the letter to enlarge: Letter from Bishop Wenski

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  • http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/ Manny

    Good for him. But I hope it doesn’t open up the church to law suits. I keep seeing law suits on Church employees who violate their Catholic values requirements, are fired, but are still able to sue the Church. Seems unfair but this seems to be the reality.

    • Dan13

      I think they run into problems with selective enforcement. Often, there are diocesan employees whose coworkers know are living in irregular relationships (e.g., cohabitation) but everyone keeps it an open secret–including the supervisor. This can continue for years until there’s a baby or government ceremony or someone writes a letter to the bishop.

      And they only tend to enforce a few things. For example, I haven’t heard of a diocesan employee being fired for skipping Mass.

      • Laureen

        The Church, strictly speaking, **requires** Mass attendance by Catholics only once/year, @ Easter Sunday.
        So, you’re not going to see anybody fired for not attending Mass, except if they go just once/year @ Easter, & miss that.

        • dancingcrane

          Mass going is required on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. It’s the sacrament of Confession that is only required one a year.

          • Michael

            Wrong! Laureen is correct.

        • Joyce La Bègue

          Yeah, Laureen, you need to read your catechism. Missing a Sunday or other HDO is a mortal sin. You must go to confession once a year at minimum and also must receive Holy Communion once a year, not on Easter Sunday but within Eastertide.

          • Michael

            What utter nonsense.

          • Laureen

            Your comment, yes, it is.

          • Laureen

            The Catholic Church has long said that that the only requirement for Mass attendance IS Easter Sunday, to remain in communion w/the Church. I know that I am right on this.
            She exhorts & encourages her members to come to Mass weekly, & daily (which I do!) if possible. Weekly Mass attendance is **not** required to remain in good standing w/the Church.

          • Guest

            Laureen — from you comments – I have to ask: are you really a Catholic? Born & bred or one of those converts that doesn’t quite get it?

            http://www.ewtn.com/Expert/answers/sunday_mass.htm

          • Laureen

            I was baptized Catholic as an infant; taken to the Methodist “church” from childhood til I left home @ 17 when my Catholic mother died (who married my Methodist father), went thru RCIA, 1st Communion/Confirmation & have been a devout Catholic ever since. Not considered a “convert” by the Church, since I was baptized as an infant, & had 0 choice as to where to worship as a child….
            Does this answer your question?

          • Laureen
        • dcook

          Laureen, you are mistaken. You are required to attend Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day. Purposely missing Mass is considered a mortal sin and you need to go to confession.

  • Donalbain

    Always nice to see the Catholic Church stand up for bigotry and intolerance.

    • BanthyloyalD

      Always nice to see trolls blissfully unaware of their own bigotry and intolerance (and hatred).

      • Donalbain

        Oh. I am fully aware of how much I hate bigots like that Archbishop.

        • Laureen

          Why are you here? You to have nothing to add to the conversation w/that tired, worn & OLD “complaint” about the Church & her Founder..

          OK. We get it. You hate the Catholic Church. What’s new? Christ was hated to the point where He was put to death for His “crimes.” Hatred of Christ & His Church has been going on since He was on earth. So what’s “new,” Donalbain?

          You have as much bigotry & intolerance of the Catholic Church as she & her devout members have of hatred for the sin & darkness in this world, which IS Satan’s domain, so no surprise about that.

          • Donalbain

            No.. I do not hate the “Catholic Church”. I hate this particular bigot.
            However, I am more tolerant than the bigot in question, since I do not believe that the law should prevent him getting married, and neither do I think that he should be fired from his job.

          • Stephen_Phelan

            Sorry, hatred isn’t ok. Can’t have peace when hatred is acceptable.

            So you also think the Obama administration is wrong to discipline and even fire employees who publicly stand against the boss? Or do you think the Catholic Church is the one institution in the world that must silently tolerate public dissent from those it employs?

          • Donalbain

            Actually, yes. If someone was fired from federal employment for the way they voted, that would be wrong.

          • Jim Dailey

            I would say you hate the Catholic Church. Which is ok with me. It is great to have people like you hate us.

          • captcrisis

            Donalbain’s view is the majority view of Catholics who attend Mass. Think about it. Every Sunday, the majority of those rubbing shoulders with you support gay marriage and refuse to shun their gay family members and their (now legally married) loving partners.

          • Jim Dailey

            You and your statistics! I wish your experts were the ones computing my batting average when I was younger! I would be the highest paid player in baseball!

          • captcrisis
          • NDaniels

            One cannot remain a Catholic if one no longer is in communion with Christ and His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

            “You cannot be my disciples if you do not abide in my word.” – Jesus The Christ

            Among younger ex Catholics, support for same-sex “marriage” may be overwhelming, but no Catholic can remain Catholic if they deny God’s intention for Marriage and Sexual Love.

          • Laureen

            All that “proves” is that these “younger” Catholics are not living their Faith.
            And, do write gay “marriage” thus, as it doesn’t exist….

          • Laureen

            How long have you been a faithful Catholic? What’s the source/authority for your statistic about Catholics w/gay family members….? Who told you that the “majority” of those @ Mass on Sunday fit that description?

          • Donalbain

            Then you would be a liar. That is fine by me.

          • Jim Dailey

            No. I don’t think so. You appear to have nothing but angry little anti-Catholic comments in virtually everything you write on these posts.
            The only interesting thing about you is the question of why you hate the Church. Looking at your posts I would say that you feel guilt over your lifestyle, and desperately want approval for it and desperately want to feel like you are part of something bigger. And not getting that approval, you lash out angrily, hoping to make other people feel the misery you have inflicted on yourself. You seek, in some impossibly vain effort, to make everyone else think like you think, to make the rules of nature bend to the rules of Donalbain.

          • Donalbain

            And you continue to lie. Please, enjoy that.

          • lorasinger

            It’s just the latest of the pagan virgin-born man-god stories, just like all the others before it. Nothing to hate.

          • lorasinger

            Jesus was “put to death” for sedition by Roman forces, died and remains dead. Twenty years later Paul invented your pagan based Christ who never died at all but remains as the object of your veneration. Nobody hated “Christ”. The actions of his followers have been heinous for 2000 years and most likely these are the ones who inspired the hate.

    • HenryBowers

      It’s heroic not to tolerate the nominalist, governmental overreach that is SSM.

      • Donalbain

        Over reach? Yes, removing bans is a classic example of over reach.

        • HenryBowers

          No need to ban what isn’t possible in the first place.

          • Donalbain

            And so you will not oppose the removal of the bans? Excellent news!

          • Laureen

            On what “authority” do you speak this?
            Or, bcz YOU don’t believe this, no one else should either, right?
            Who died & appointed you God?

          • HenryBowers

            I’ve never heard an argument or definition that concludes SSM and marriage to be the same kind of union. If they aren’t the same, they shouldn’t be called the same.

          • captcrisis

            Words can change their meaning over time of course.

            As far as the Church goes, it has learned to concede (or fudge) things when being dogmatic about something would reduce it to the size of a cult. This is what happened to the Church’s earlier stands against freedom of religion and equal rights for women — if it still had the mind of (for example) Pius IX on these issues, Catholicism would have as many adherents today as maybe the Mennonites. This is certainly now the case with opposing gay marriage. That position soon will have the support of only a tiny minority of Catholics.

            Of course, the Church hates overruling itself. My guess is that it will invent some kind of other term for gay couples (I’ve heard the term “avowed friendships” — that’s a good candidate) and give it its sanction. It might not rise to the status of sacrament, but a ceremony will be promulgated. In time, that ceremony and the marriage ceremony will converge, and eventually the theology too.

          • HenryBowers

            Interesting that you’re talking about religion, probably by necessity, but I’m not. SSM desperately needs SSM to be a religious issue, so they can eschew the fact that SSM is a flagrant abuse of civil power. If marriage has changed meaning, what is the new meaning? No one can explain the new meaning.

          • kathyschiffer

            No, capt. That won’t happen.

          • captcrisis

            Who knows? The Vatican “thinks in centuries”. Not too long ago, the Church’s pre-eminent theologian called women “defective and misbegotton” versions of men. Obviously not the theology of the last three Popes, who (you have to admit) were either urged, prodded or bludgeoned by the laity toward a greater humanity. Neither you nor I can predict what might happen as far as “avowed friendships”.

            But for now — what is the effect when “official Church doctrine” is rejected by almost all of the people who show up at Mass? That is already true of contraception (which almost all sexually active Catholics practice). Soon it will be true of gay marriage.

          • Snooterpoot

            Hahahaha! My same-sex wife and I are married, therefore disproving your statement that it isn’t possible.

            Why do you even care if a same-sex couple gets married?

          • HenryBowers

            I can’t care about what’s not possible, but I care about being forced to call SSM the same thing as marriage, when they’re not the same thing.

          • Snooterpoot

            It’s the same thing, Henry. You said there’s no need to ban what’s not possible in the first place. I simply proved your statement to be wrong by informing you that my same-sex wife and I are, wait for it, married!

            Why do you even care? Your church won’t be forced to call our marriages by their right definition, so why do you care?

          • HenryBowers

            I care about the government willy-nilly forcing me to shoehorn two concepts under the same definition, which they won’t provide, and which don’t both fit the traditional and still relevant definition of marriage.

          • Donalbain

            Nobody forces you to call it anything. You can refuse to call marriages between left handed people “marriages”. Nobody will give a damn.

          • HenryBowers

            Except then my preference would conflict with reality, so I’d have no reason to hold it.

          • Donalbain

            And yet still you are not being forced to call anything anything. That choice remains entirely with you.

          • Laureen

            2 people of the same sex have never been, can never be, married.
            You can call a dog a tree, or a tree a rock, but it changes nothing.
            You can call 2 women, or 2 men, “married, but it changes nothing. 2 same-sex people can never be married.

          • Snooterpoot

            Wrong. I am legally married to my same-sex wife. We are married. Period. No amount of denial on your part can change that.

          • Donalbain

            Congratulations. May you and your wife have many many years of happiness together.

        • John Placette

          Let’s minimize the sacrament of marriage. Then confirmation, then baptism, then the Eucharist. Let’s see where we wind up, shall we?

          • Famijoly

            That place is called Hell. So I would rather not SEE where that path would take me.

          • Snooterpoot

            There is no hell. Hell was invented by human beings as a way to control others by scaring them.

          • Donalbain

            This has nothing to do with any sacraments. My marriage was not a sacrament. Neither was Elton John’s.

          • virago

            And that is the difference, or should be, between your marriage and my marriage. Mine is sacramental.

          • Donalbain

            Then how does the existence of non sacramental marriages do any harm to any of the sacraments?

          • Snooterpoot

            Good for you. Mine is civil, but it’s still a marriage.

          • lorasinger

            Baptism? The eating the blood of the god? Pagan.

          • Snooterpoot

            Our government is secular, not theocratic, so the terms “sacrament, baptism, Eucharist and confirmation” are not a basis for any law.

            And no one is trying to “minimize” anything.

    • Lisa Ann Homic

      Sorry, Donalbain, asking people with SSA to stay celibate is not bigotry or intolerance.

    • NDaniels

      Please do not slander and libel this Archbishop and The Catholic Church. The desire that all persons be treated with Dignity and respect in private as well as public is an act of Love, not an act of hate/bigotry.

      • Donalbain

        Firing people for supporting g the rights of gay people is an act of bigotry.

  • captcrisis

    So you get fired for agreeing with the Bishop of Belgium, a number of other bishops, and probably the Pope himself. We’re not talking about the Church accepting gay marriage as a sacrament. We’re talking about the civil institution of marriage.

    What if your Facebook page has your family photo (as most do). You have your smiling married siblings. Are you now supposed to take a knife and cut out the man whom your gay brother was finally able to marry after living together for 20 years?

    • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

      That isn’t marriage.

      • captcrisis

        Whatever you want to call it — do you hack the man’s photo out of your family picture?

        Mind you, this is Miami, where just about every gay male is out of the closet.

        • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

          You choose not to work for the church. Or you choose not to be intimately involved in your brother’s life. Those are the only two options left available in a world that insists that love requires acceptance rather than tolerance.

          • Snooterpoot

            You choose not to be intimately involved in your brother’s life? Really, Theodore? That’s not a loving thing to say; that’s a horrible thing to say.

        • NDaniels

          A necessary requirement for a marriage contract, as well as The Sacrament of Marriage, is the ability and desire to exist in relationship as husband and wife. If you condone marriage fraud and the sin of adultery, one could not possibly be supporting the Faith and Mission of a Catholic Institution or The Catholic Church. Posting a picture of one’s family would not be sufficient evidence to suggest that someone condones a same-sex sexual relationship as regardless of our desires/inclinations, a man, in essence, remains a man, and a woman remains a woman.

          • Snooterpoot

            No, the only necessary requirement for a marriage contract it a marriage license issued by the government. A religious figure is acting in a capacity granted by the state when she legally marries two people.

            My wife and I have pledged to continue our loving, faithful and committed marriage until death do us part. We took that vow seriously, and we intend to keep it.

    • Laureen

      O, here we go again…

      Pope Francis does **not** approve of, stand up for, homosexual “marriage.” If there are bishops that do, they stand to be defrocked for it, if they refuse to repent of that sin & amend their ways. They can & will be, excommunicated.

      As for what you post on Fb or anywhere else, you’re responsible for it. If you post a photo on your page of what you describe, you deserve to be terminated from your job @ a Catholic place of employment, for supporting this evil called homosexuality. Or for supporting anything else the Church names sin & militates against.

      • Steve

        Laureen, perhaps you personally believe that homosexuality is “evil,” but you are in conflict with Church teaching, which does NOT in fact describe this sexual orientation as “evil.” Read the catechism.

        As for the bishop’s decision to fire employees who indicate they support things that the church opposes: I imagine he will also be sending out termination letters to employees who post a picture of Uncle Pete marrying his new wife Aunt Judy after divorcing his first wife and not securing an annulment? Last time I checked, the Church also did not think that situation should exist. How will the bishop and his lieutenants find enough time to patrol every employee’s social media accounts? Or do they intend to enforce this policy on a selective basis?

        • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

          The catechism describes homosexuality as intrinsically disordered. For that matter, my autism is intrinsically disordered. Should I demand “autistic pride” (a deadly sin) and my right to act however I like?

          • NDaniels

            No, because autism does not demean one’s Dignity as a human person. A sexual act that does not respect the Dignity of the persons engaging in that act, would be intrinsically disordered because it would be an act of lust, not Love. Our call to Holiness is a call to be chaste in our thoughts, in our words, and our deeds.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            You say that as someone who has not experienced the marginalized nature of autism from the inside.

          • NDaniels

            Having autism does not demean the Dignity of a human person; identifying oneself or another human being as an object of sexual desire/orientation does demean our Dignity as human persons.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            Like I say, most of us felt quite demeaned growing up- usually by neurotypicals. I myself have quite a bit of post traumatic stress disorder from it; which I now recognize I brought on myself by failing to act appropriately. I see no real difference between my autism and homosexuality, other than the fact that most of my sexual acts (not all) that were inappropriate were directed at the opposite biological gender.

          • Snooterpoot

            Are you seriously saying that no heterosexual person, even a Roman Catholic, has ever had lustful sex?

            ND, your comment is nauseating. Same-sex intimacy is just as loving as opposite-sex intimacy. To say it isn’t is hateful and wrong.

          • Laureen

            Um, no. Big, fat, bloody difference.

        • NDaniels

          An inclination is not a person. Giving personhood to an inclination, sexual or otherwise, does not change the fact that while it is not a sin to have a disordered inclination, it is a sin to not desire to overcome our disordered inclinations and become transformed through Salvational Love, God’s Gift of Grace and Mercy.

        • Laureen

          Not talking about “orientation,” or “same-sex attraction.” Those are separate & apart from **active** homosexuality. To have “ssa” or a “homosxl orientation” is **not** the same as living an active homosexual lifestyle. The former is not sinful/evil; the latter is. It’s the acts, the behavior, that’s evil, not the “attraction.”
          Showing support for intrinsically evil acts–or committing them yourself–necessitates that you be separated from employment with the Church. That would include your example. I was never supportive of my Catholic aunt & uncle, both divorced, both refused an annulment bcz the Church found those marriages valid/sacramental, & who lived outside of communion w/the Church for 22 years, til both ex-spouses were dead. Then, they were admitted to the Eucharist, after Reconciliation.

          Had I been employed by the Church @ that time, & gave any indication that I was supportive of my aunt & uncle’s illegit/adulterous “marriage”/disordered lifestyle (while their exes were alive) I would’ve expected to get a termination notice of my employment.

          • Snooterpoot

            Loving my wife is not sinful or disordered. Your judgment of us is.

      • Joyce La Bègue

        Laureen, specificity of language, please, and do check your catechism again. The Church of Rome does not condemn the homosexual orientation. It teaches that homosexual acts are always evil and disordered. If you think otherwise then you are condemning many continent men and women who have chosen to life as the Church demands. You’ve also condemned many good and faithful priests.

        • Laureen

          I didn’t here, & never have, stated that “ssa” is “evil.” (Or that “homosexual orientation” is)

          I’ve always said that it’s homosexual **acts** that are evil & disordered. Living in an active homosexual relationship is **sinful.** Mortally, gravely so.

          Identifying oneself as “homosexually oriented” or having “ssa” but living chastely, is **not** sinful/evil. Have made that statement a bazillion times!

      • Michael

        Well said Laureen. Pope Francis has never denied same gender marriage, but reiterated the Catholic canon law.

        • Laureen

          I didn’t say that. I said that the Pope doesn’t approve/give a thumbs-up to same sex “marriage.” He can’t. He denies it exists, he denies same-gender relationships as “good,” unlike “society.” Nothing in canon law asserts homosexual acts as “good.”

          • captcrisis

            The Bishop of Miami is talking about support for the civil right of gay people to unite legally. You can call it “same sex marriage” or “civil unions”. The Pope is open to “civil unions”.

  • Raymond of Penafort

    If only there were some way to have integrity and refuse to work for an institution that does not fit in with one’s own personal beliefs. Oh, wait…

  • Phil

    So Dick Cheney could not get a job there because he has publicly supported his daughter.

    • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

      And he’s publically supported torture, so we can pretty much rule him out as being Catholic anything.

      • Phil

        Perhaps he was a bad choice, but in this case I only meant the fact that he has publicly supported his daughter. I am sure there are other examples of people who support their children in this situation.

        • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

          Funny definition of “support” you have there. Looks an awful lot like hatred from my standpoint.

          Real support would be trying to move his daughter to a place more suited to the biological reality of the human species being bigendered, not polygendered. Allowing people to persist in madness is uncharitable to the insane.

          • Phil

            I do not think it is funny to love and support your children. I do not know what has taken place privately.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            Then I should say an odd definition of “love and support”, which to me would indicate helping the child live a better life, not a measurably and objectively worse life.

          • lorasinger

            I hope you apply the same rule to pedophile priests.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            I do. I do not support any men who break their vows, be those vows to a wife or to God. Men’s sexuality needs boundaries.

      • Joyce La Bègue

        Apparently the US bishops think all manners of violence acceptable unless it involves a fetus. Torture? Hey, that’s fine.

        • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

          Catechism on the subject:
          2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong.Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

          2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.

          2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

          Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

          2148 Blasphemy is directly opposed to the second commandment. It consists in uttering against God – inwardly or outwardly – words of hatred, reproach, or defiance; in speaking ill of God; in failing in respect toward him in one’s speech; in misusing God’s name. St. James condemns those “who blaspheme that honorable name [of Jesus] by which you are called.” The prohibition of blasphemy extends to language against Christ’s Church, the saints, and sacred things. It is also blasphemous to make use of God’s name to cover up criminal practices, to reduce peoples to servitude, to torture persons or put them to death. The misuse of God’s name to commit a crime can provoke others to repudiate religion.

          Blasphemy is contrary to the respect due God and his holy name. It is in itself a grave sin.

          • Laureen

            Mr. Seeber–would you mind commenting on the relevance to the topic here, of your post? Looks like it’d be appropriate for another day, when the topic aligns w/the subjects of your post
            Thank you.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            This was in response to the comment that Dick Cheney supports his homosexual daughter, and I am pointing out that Dick Cheney supports several things that are quite against Catholic Teaching.

            Threads do drift, don’t they?

          • lorasinger

            Read “Victims of the Christianity” – 12 pages, packed with mostly Catholic mayhem and murder. How do you think the Catholic church got to the top of the heap? By suppression, and murder.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            Why would I read a fake anti Catholic history?

          • lorasinger

            Except that it isn’t fake. It’s the stuff your church won’t tell you but it remains in history.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            It remains in the Protestant propaganda version of history, yes. You should not be so gullible.

          • lorasinger

            Much as you might like to call it that, the answer is no. Some of the documentation comes down from your very own Catholic historians. For instance:

            Marra (Maraat an-numan)12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine “the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians” said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
            .
            Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children).
            [WW37-40]
            .
            In the words of one witness: “there [in front of Solomon’s temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our
            foes”, and after that “happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour’s tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude.”
            .
            Very impressive, this love of humanity of your church. And you worry about same sex marriage? Take the beam out of your own eye.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            Boasting means nothing also.

          • lorasinger

            Boasting about what? Diversion tactics don’t work. Your church has been murderous for 2000 years and you even dare to take minute things and add misery to the lives of those living today? How much is enough?

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            Conquering the enemy of course- JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SOLDIER IN THAT ERA. Now, are you going to deal with the quotes from the Catechism or are you going to keep playing stupid judgemental games pulling quotes out of context?

          • lorasinger

            You live in a house of cards, a religion invented 2000 years ago by Paul based on paganism with its invented rites right down to the eating of the god. Pagan to the core and you think that gives you authority. The days of Catholic authority were left in the dark ages that it precipitated. Now, it is more like a babe in a high chair, throwing back its head and banging its little fists.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            So do you, because that religion is what created the civilization you now enjoy.

          • sandraleesmith46

            false narrative! Solomon’s temple was destroyed by NEBUCHADNEZZAR, centuries befor there was a Rome, or a church. The temple Ezra rebuilt, and Herod subsequently renovated, was destroyed in the first century AD, and there has NOT been a temple since.

          • lorasinger

            Because you’re ignorant of its real history. It became #1 by killing off its opposition after Paul started the Paul rolling with his invented “Christ”.

        • RockyMissouri

          Hungry and homeless people are apparently ok…

          • Lesley Hughes

            The Catholic Church, through “Catholic Charities” is doing and has done more to house the homeless, clothe the naked and feed the poor than any other group in the history of the world. EVERY DAY, the Catholic Church ministers freely to anyone in need..any religion or no religion..young and old…and race and sexual orientation. All we ask is that those who indirectly represent the Catholic Church by virtue of their employment not actively, publicly work against it.

          • RockyMissouri

            A most excellent comment. Are you referring to the priests …with your last sentence…?

          • Laureen

            Along w/Catholic Social Services, Catholic Relief Services, & the myriad other charitable institutes, apostolates & services offered by the local parish/diocese, like food pantries, soup kitchens, temporary emergency shelters, clothes closets…

          • lorasinger

            and the Vatican, Vatican, Vatican

          • lorasinger

            Catholic Church ministers freely to anyone in need..any religion or no religion”
            .
            The product doesn’t work as advertised.

          • Laureen

            And so is everyone else who is down & out.

        • Laureen

          Same as above. Cite your reference/evidence that “US bishops think…”
          And bring on the relevance that has to the archbishop’s statement that is the topic here.

      • Michael

        I don’t recall this archbishop standing up for homeless people and those who are feeding them being arrested for living out the Gospel of Christ. ( He looks pretty well-fed too! ).

        • RockyMissouri

          INDEED.

        • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

          I was talking more about Dick Cheney, though I suppose your objection still fits.

        • kathyschiffer

          FROM ARCHBISHOP WENSKI’S BIO:
          In 1979, after briefly ministering in Haiti, he was assigned to the newly established Haitian Apostolate of the Archdiocese. He was associate director and then director of the Pierre Toussaint Haitian Catholic Center in Miami from that time to his appointment as a Bishop in 1997. The Pierre Toussaint Haitian Catholic Center in addition to providing for the pastoral and spiritual needs of the Haitian communities of South Florida also provided numerous social, educational and legal services to newly arrived Haitian immigrants. He also served concurrently as pastor of three Haitian mission parishes in the Archdiocese-Notre-Dame d’Haiti in Miami, Divine Mercy in Fort Lauderdale, and St. Joseph in Pompano Beach.

          Through the 1980’s he also conducted a circuit-riding ministry that led him to help establish Haitian Catholic communities….

          • lorasinger

            Don’t forget:
            ,
            Condoms:

            But on social issues, he is a rabid, Tea Party-style conservative whose ban on even discussing condoms might have led to hundreds of Haitians contracting HIV.
            .
            “We are 30 years into an epidemic that has cost millions of lives,” says Vanessa Mills, director of AIDS resource center Empower U. “It doesn’t matter if you’re the archbishop of Miami. Anyone denying that condoms save lives is being incredibly irresponsible.”
            .
            The argument had long-lasting effects in Little Haiti, to this day a community disproportionately blighted by HIV.
            .

            Harbouring Pedophiles:

            In 2002, Miami Archbishop John Favalora issued rules for handling complaints of abuse, but Herman says the archdiocese has become more cynical and secretive since Wenski took over. “The difference that I’ve seen is that they’ve been really unsympathetic to the victims,” he says. “Archbishop Wenski hasn’t handed over a single file on these priests. They talk about being transparent, but still they hold all the files.”

            .

            “Herman is a big lawyer, and he’s certainly representing some legitimate victims,” Wenski admits. “But he’s also trying to stir the pot to see who he can pick up.”

            Yet Herman is not the only one questioning Wenski’s willingness to take abuse seriously. David Clohessy, executive director of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP) and an abuse victim himself, says the new archbishop needs to do more to address and investigate past abuses. He says at least 32 Miami-area priests have been accused of sexual abuse since the archdiocese was founded in 1952.

            The new Miami archbishop broke a pledge to publicize credible claims of molestation, Clohessy claims. He kept silent on lawsuits against two Orlando priests that were settled during his tenure. And in 2007, Wenski wrote to parishioners that “personal issues” had arisen for Father Carlos Bedoya, who was quietly suspended from active ministry in Deltona.
            .

            Under dress and slippers, he’s just as immoral as any of the others.

        • kathyschiffer

          ALSO FROM ARCHBISHOP WENSKI’S BIO. Michael, taking cheap shots without knowing what you’re talking about simply spotlights your prejudice.
          * * *

          In January 1996, the then Father Wenski was appointed the Archdiocese Director of Catholic Charities, one of the largest Catholic social service agencies in the United States. In this capacity he helped forge a collaborative relationship with Caritas Cuba, the social service arm of the Catholic Church in Cuba. Since early 1996 he has traveled to Cuba on many occasions on behalf of the Church.

          In late 1996, he spearheaded a relief operation that delivered over 150,000 pounds of food to Caritas Cuba for distribution to people left homeless by hurricane Lily. This was the first time that Cubans in Miami participated in a humanitarian relief effort directed to Cuba. In subsequent years, similar relief efforts were also directed to Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and the countries of Central America and Colombia.

        • kathyschiffer

          THERE’S MORE, MICHAEL. AND I GROW ANGRIER, READING MORE AND REALIZING MORE AND MORE JUST HOW UNFAIR YOU ARE.

          Besides his duties in the Archdiocese of Miami, where he served on numerous boards including Catholic Hospice, Catholic Charities, Catholic Charities Legal Services, and St. Thomas University, and later as Coadjutor Bishop and Ordinary of Orlando, he also served as chair of CLINIC (Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc.) (1998-2001), chair of the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops’ Committee on Migration (2001-2004); and chair of the conference’s Committee on International Policy (2004-2008) and currently he continues as a consultant to the Committee on Migration, and a member of the Conference’s Secretariat for the Church in Latin America , the committee for International Justice and Peace, and CLINIC (Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc.).

          He also served on a number of community and civic organizations, including Miami-Dade County’s Homeless Trust, the Coordinating Council of Broward and in 2001, Governor Bush appointed him to the Florida Council on Homelessness as well as the Governor’s Task Force on Haiti in 2004.

          He is currently the Episcopal Moderator for Catholic Health Services for the Florida Catholic Conference. Pope John Paul II appointed Bishop Wenski as coadjutor bishop of the Diocese of Orlando on July 1, 2003.

          • lorasinger

            and?

      • Laureen

        Excuse me? What’s your evidence for this? Cite it. If you can’t, then retract it.
        And, while you’re @ it, indicate what relevance this has to the topic @ hand.

    • Laureen

      Right. Dick Cheney could not be employed by the Church on account of his acceptance of his daughter’s evil homosexual lifestyle choice.

      Also goes for supporting/practicing anything that militates against Catholic teaching, that includes:
      out of wedlock birth/single parenthood,
      assisted suicide,
      cohabitation,
      birth control,
      drug or alcohol abuse,
      support for the death penalty,
      euthanasia,
      prostitution,
      abortion…

      If you’re employed by the Church, it behooves you not to indulge in any of these or other behaviors/lifestyle choices that the Church teaches against.

      • NDaniels

        There is a difference between the desire to overcome our sinful inclinations and become transformed through Salvational Love, God’s Gift of Grace and Mercy, and denying that a sin is a sin.

      • RockyMissouri

        I rather think that Jesus loved everyone…and NO person is better than another. Perhaps they should be more concerned with what is going on INSIDE the church, rather than outside, IMO.

        • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com Tom

          Jesus does love everyone. But he still has policies.
          And this IS about what is done (or said) inside the church community.

        • The_Monk

          If you love someone, you do not encourage him in his sin. Jesus would heal people, then tell them to go, and sin no more. He embraced them. He did not embrace their sin.
          Love the sinner, but not the sin. Learn to differentiate.
          Peace…

      • Michael

        Please define ‘evil homosexual lifestyle choice’.

        • Ron

          If it’s against God laws it’s evil, you need to study the wright and the wrong way to live, all the information is there on how to live so one can reach Heaven, dont be dumb, the second you die it’s to late.

          • lorasinger

            “God’s laws” are laid out in the OT which is the old covenant. Paul said that the old covenant is dead to Christians so that part of the bible has nothing to do with them. What else have you got?

          • sandraleesmith46

            Jesus, the higher authority on the new covenant, stated He came to FULFILL the law, not destroy it, ergo, what you THINK Paul said contrarywise is in error. The old covenant was amended, not abolished. Furthermore, homosexual behaviorwas condemned in the new covenant as in the old, so no joy there either.

          • The_Monk

            Not so fast. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, St. Paul explicitly warns against certain sins, among which is listed homosexuality, saying that such sinners (unless they repent and put away their sinfulness, as must we all) will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
            Natural law being what it is, and God being a fruitful God combine to teach us the spiritually fatal error of “gay marriage”.
            Peace…

      • lorasinger

        And every one of them is no business of anyone but those directly concerned – and the church ain’t it!

    • Ignatz

      No, he couldn’t, but I hope that the torture of prisoners would prevent it, too.

  • Olgamarie Reyes-Tañón

    Good. If your catholic your not suppose to support same sex marriage

  • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

    Good luck to the good Archbishop, it’s a long road uphill from “pastoral” to “zero tolerance”.

  • Donalbain

    And what does any of that have to do with whether the state should ban marriage between gay people?

  • NDaniels

    Supporting The Faith and Mission of The Catholic Church does not depend on one’s race/ancestry, or whether one is male or female. It is not unjust discrimination to discriminate between those persons who support the Faith and Mission of The Catholic Church, and those who do not. Employers have the right to employ those persons who will support their Faith and/or Mission. The teaching of The Catholic Church in regards to authentic Love serves for the Good of all persons. The desire to treat all persons with Dignity and respect in private as well as in public is a virtuous desire.

    Thank you, Archbishop Wenski, for your witness to The Truth, and God’s intention for Marriage and The Family

  • Laureen

    Thank u, Geoffrey. You are spot-on about this.
    Though you failed to mention “cheating” on one’s partner. Inherent in the gay lifestyle is the penchant for multiple partners/promiscuity. Dan Savage, some prominent homosexual, & “married,” (NO, he is not–homosexual “marriage” does not exist!) has admitted to “stepping out” on his partner @ least 9 times since their so-called “marriage;” just part & parcel of this lovely lifestyle….

    • Jumbo Jack

      Divorce is also part of the straight lifestyle. Did you know half of straight people who get married commit the sin of divorce!?

      • Laureen

        Not so fast. Read up on the Church’s teachings on what constitutes “true” marriage, what makes a marriage “valid.” Those who find themselves in invalid marriages are not committing sin to divorce, & the Church annuls the marriage, which is a finding that a true marriage never existed.

        • lorasinger

          Stuff and nonsense. It’s either a marriage or it’s not a marriage. If people have gone through a ceremony and had sex, it’s marriage. The rest is frivolous nonsense to try to skirt the issue.

  • Cromulent

    Excellent. The Magisterium is supposed to mean something.

  • Laureen

    Amen. Got that right.

  • Joyce La Bègue

    Fear-based religion, at its best. The US Roman Bishops have made same-sex civil marriage their Golden Calf. Instead of teaching people how to be spiritual and Christ-like, they are teaching people who to hate. They’ve lost the battle. There are what, maybe 15 states left without gay marriage? It’s over. Accept the reality and try to meet people where they are, or in 50 years there will be no Church.

  • RockyMissouri

    Homosexuals harm NO ONE. I used to be a bigot. It is an ugly, terrible way to be. Little did I know, I already knew a gay man. A dear friend..more like a brother.

    When he revealed to me that he was gay, it did not matter. All I saw was a friend, who needed to talk. With that revelation of unburdening his heart, he opened my eyes to a new way of seeing the human beings that I had previously dismissed, so easily.
    The moment that I had the realization that these silly things do not matter, was AWESOME, and quite powerful. I felt changed, freed from myself… and it felt wonderful.

    This man is speaking of hate, and I don’t believe Jesus would be on board with that message.

  • Aaron Taylor

    This reminds me of a case I read about in North Carolina last year where a Catholic parish pulled out of an “interfaith” service not because, as you might expect if you were Christian, worshipping pagan gods was a problem for them, but because the organist was gay! The fact is, many “employees” of the Church are not priests and do not have any pastoral or teaching responsibilities. Most Catholic dioceses in the US employ a number of people who aren’t even Catholic to do various jobs, and indeed, why not? You hardly need to agree with the Church’s teaching to clean the toilets in the parish hall or to do the filing in the office. What the Archbishop is saying is that you can be an atheist who sticks two fingers up at your Creator, or a pagan who worships false gods, and the Catholic Church will employ you, but woebetide you if you are gay and sexually active. This isn’t orthodox Catholicism. Its hypocritical and inconsistent fascism.

    • Laureen

      Where do you get this cockamamie idea, starting with “What the Archbishop is saying….”?
      He is saying no such thing. Apparently, you didn’t read the blog post.
      You don’t know the definition of “fascism” if you use it as you have here.

  • Peter

    Makes me ashamed to be Catholic.

  • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com Tom

    Wow. A real Catholic.

  • DaCoachK

    Finally, someone willing to fight against the unnatural evil that is one man sexually assaulting the alimentary canal of another man. The USA certainly needs more people like him.

  • Seng

    Seems as if religion will forever continue doing as it pleases. Who will save us from religion? It hates, divides, controls, instills guilt and fear… May God please deliver us from this monster called religion. Amen.

  • Concerned

    Kathy, these site comments need to be moderated by you before these various posts are posted on-line.
    Otherwise, chaos results……..

    • kathyschiffer

      Hi Concerned– Thanks, I see that and I’m disgusted. I’m working now to get comments closed for this post.

      • Donalbain

        Ohnoes! People disagreeing! The horror! The horror!

  • Seamrog

    My Goodness….these comments. A bishop gets a little backbone and look at what scurries around on the floor.

    “When the light came into the world men preferred darkness to light; preferred it, because their doings were evil. Anyone who acts shamefully hates the light, will not come into the light, for fear that his doings will be found out.”


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