I Wish People Would Keep It Real When Talking About Sex

PS- 99.9% of the world don’t look like these two… But don’t let real life non-model looks dictate your marriage’s sex life!

This post is from Andrew Marin, President and Founder of The Marin Foundation.

The other day on Twitter I noticed someone retweeted an article from Relevant Magazine on the 4 Things We Wish We Knew About Sex Before We Were Married. Seeing I like to study the topic of sex and sexuality, etc, I opened it immediately, as Relevant usually has provoking thoughts on a number of topics. This article was not one of those. I won’t rehash the full article here, you can read it for yourself. But I do have a few thoughts:

Jake and Melissa Kircher, whom I do not know, are unfortuantely the stereotypical church-type-couple doling out advice on marriage. Jake has a goatee and faux-hawk, Melissa is very pretty and has blond hair, and their blog is called The Holymess of Marriage. Yet seemingly by their picture, bios, and other articles on their site that I read (of course, they are also 20 weeks pregnant like all good young Christian couples are!), have the furthest thing from a mess of a marriage. The ironic naming of their blog does not escape me–as those with the outward perfect marriage are always the “best ones to tell everyone else” how to live like their perfect “mess” of a marriage.

Why I’m so frustrated is that their self-protrayal online, and especially in their Relevant article, do nothing but perpetuate the sterile, fear-based understanding of sex that so many raised in the church have been indoctrinated with. But, what do I know?

I’ll give my thoughts anyway.

The Kircher’s 4 points in the article are:

1. Expect to be sexually incompatible at first.

2. Take your time.

3. Your sex life will have ups and downs like anything else.

4. Sex depicted in the movies leave some things out–intimacy.

Nice advice, sure. But it’s not keeping it real. I’m married, and have many friends who are married, and know many people who are married. And the only people who would give that advice are professional-Christian-marriage-advice-givers. In lieu of this, let me give my own 4 points of things I wish I know about sex before I was married:

1. Some people have a huge sex drive (both men and women), and some people don’t.

Why women are always made out to be the timid half of the sexual partnership, even in Christian relationships, I don’t know. There are plenty of women who have a huge sex drive that lasts for years, and decades, without slowing down. Sometimes much more than men. The interesting part of this type of Christian marriage, especially for those who waited to have sex before marriage, is that you won’t actually find any of this out until you’re married! Joke’s on us. So…

2. Be thankful to the Lord for what you’re given sexually.

Sex isn’t a right, it’s a consenting privilege. So you might hit the jackpot–both partners have huge sex drive. That’s ok. Get your freak on! And some will only have one partner with a huge sex drive; and some with neither partners. In the most incongruent case, that one has a huge sex drive the other doesn’t, let me add a few thoughts:

2a. There are many single people out there who either choose to live celibate or those that want to be married, but can’t find a partner and remain single. They “don’t get” to have sex. So any sex you’re getting should be revered. Enjoy and treasure your partner in these moments of sex; no matter how frequent or infrequent. Don’t be ungrateful.

2b. You married your partner not because you knew they were a freak in bed and thought that would last forever, but because you loved them so much you wanted to express your deep intimacy and love with them by having sex; and lots of it. Sex doesn’t define a relationship, but sometimes it does–for good or bad. And that is ok to admit! If you don’t admit it your partnership will be stuck in the Kircher’s “incompatible” phase. And no one wants that. Even if you have sex infrequently, both of you, at least, want it to be good.

2c. If one partner has a huge sex drive and the other doesn’t, you can either a) force your partner to have awkward sex and you feel like you’re raping them, or b) adjust your expectations. Take b. Adjust your expectations. And that way you’ll understand the special act of sex when it actually does happen and not be ungrateful for “all of the sex you should be having all the time.”

3. Don’t let body insecurities stifle sexual exploration.

If there is one person in the world who you should not be insecure around, in any area or place in/around your naked body, it’s your partner. Treasure your partner’s unconditional love towards you and explore everything together. And that doesn’t mean it always has to be perfect-subtle-worrisome-Christian-sex because…

4. Intensity is ok.

The article that prompted this post, and many other Christian ones I’ve read over the years, automatically link (directly or indirectly) intense sex with moans and sweat and *dirty* talk; and that means you’re a satanic porn star. And as we all know, Christians don’t want to be satanic porn stars–thus, that equation means intense sex + moans + sweat + *dirty* talk all = no-nos. But if that is who you and your partner are, that’s ok. This doesn’t mean you are not a Christian anymore. It doesn’t mean you are a satanic porn star. It means you’re living in your sexual connection in marriage. If it’s not who you are, that’s ok too. I promise, God doesn’t hate or abhor intense sex had between marriage partners even with moans, sweat and lots of intensity. We are high capacity emotional beings. Sex is to live the best into that understanding. And however that connection happens through sex for your marriage, let it happen.

That’s my two, er, four cents on sex for this topic. What were you taught about sex growing up? I’d love to hear about your pre-marriage counseling as well! Ours was horrible, and sounded exactly like the aforementioned article. I wish I got to read this before I got married. Agree? Disagree?

Much love.

www.themarinfoundation.org

About Andrew Marin

Andrew Marin is President and Founder of The Marin Foundation (www.themarinfoundation.org). He is author of the award winning book Love Is an Orientation (2009), its interactive DVD curriculum (2011), and recently an academic ebook titled Our Last Option: How a New Approach to Civility can Save the Public Square (2013). Andrew is a regular contributor to a variety of media outlets and frequently lectures at universities around the world. Since 2010 Andrew has been asked by the United Nations to advise their various agencies on issues of bridging opposing worldviews, civic engagement, and theological aspects of reconciliation. For twelve years he lived in the LGBT Boystown neighborhood of Chicago, and is currently based St. Andrews, Scotland, where he is teaching and researching at the University of St. Andrews earning his PhD in Constructive Theology with a focus on the Theology of Culture. Andrew's research centers on the cultural, political, and religious dynamics of reconciliation. Andrew is married to Brenda, and you can find him elsewhere on Twitter (@Andrew_Marin), Facebook (AndrewMarin01), and Instagram (@andrewmarin1).

  • Daniel

    Thanks for these thoughts. They were very timely for me and came while my wife and I are having a dry spell and I find myself being very resentful sometimes. Thanks for the words about adjusting your expectations and being grateful for the times you do have sex.

    • Andrew Marin

      Daniel – Thanks brother!

  • Ekhym Wethered

    I think another point is to be aware that not all Christian couples were always Christian, and even if both partners were, one or both may have had sexual partners before marriage. Don’t obsess or worry about how many or who or what kinds of sexual experiences your partner may have had. They chose you and to share the rest of their life (including their sex life) with you.

    I have seen too many friends’ relationships founder because one partner or the other can’t let go of their obsession/jealousy about the other’s sexual background. An example – one friend ended up in divorce after her husband found out she had lots of sex before they met. He was afraid of not measuring up, thought she was a slut, and kept trying to limit her normal social interactions with other men because he decided he couldn’t “trust’ her to “resist temptation to return to her old ways”.

    In another case a friend’s fiance broke up with him when she found out that he had once had a sexual encounter with another man – even though that encounter only served, for my friend, to confirm his heterosexual orientation. To her that one encounter, before my friend became a Christian (he grew up in a secular non-religious family) – meant both that is was irredeemably a sinner, and that he was going to expose her to some kind of dreadful disease.

    • Andrew Marin

      Such great points Ekhym. Thanks so much for sharing them.

    • Erica

      That sounds like Christian advice, again. What if I do need to obsess over my partner’s prior experiences for a bit?? So what?? Thankfully, my partner has been very sensitive toward my needs in this and let me have my process….instead of telling me it was none of my business or I should just get over it. Because of that, we got past it (mostly) and have a wonderfully connected intimate love life.

  • http://adammclane.com adam mclane

    While our pre-marital counseling was overall really good and helpful. There was nothing about doing the dirty.

    I guess I’d only add, there’s some things about sex I just don’t want to talk about in the public arena. The Relevant article had comments wanting them to talk more about the messiness of sex. And I thought, nah… I’m good not talking about that.

    I’d wished that the article talked more about vulnerability and intimacy.

    • Andrew Marin

      Adam – Sometimes I just wish Relevant, among other Christian publications, would stop trying to be fringe provocative. Fringe provocative has been done a million times before, and does no good because it reinforces negative stereotypes about sex, etc, other “provocative” topics. I feel if Relevant is going to address something provocative, address it, and don’t stifle the reality of doing the dirty. I do like your idea of vulnerability and intimacy though, as those are real situations that many are unequipped to handle either (somewhat relating to my point #3).

      • http://adammclane.com adam mclane

        Agreed. Relevant is the issue here, not totally Jake/Melissa. (Who are two great people, dear friends of mine.) They are evangelical, they do come at things from a traditional evangelical viewpoint, but I wouldn’t put them in the same camp as James Dobson or anything like that. (Not by a long shot!) Their context is working with couples in their church and people who work in churches… so it should be no surprise that they are church-y.

        Totally agree with your pseudo-provocative point. IMO, Relevant is really just CT for a younger generation. Same vantage point, selling to a slightly younger audience of millennials. Certainly not progressive in any way.

        Interesting discussion, for sure.

  • Lori

    I am also one of those who subscribed to the view the article you mention purported. My husband and I had different sex drives, I was uncomfortable and out of touch with my body, and while our times together were bonding and loving, something was missing. So upon the advent of our 20 year anniversary, I pushed aside all my hang ups, stepped out in faith and sought to learn what I should have learned so long ago, but was told was wrong and not what nice girls did. I got in touch with my body. And man! I am so very grateful for every intense encounter my husband and I now enjoy together. I thank God for each and every one.

    • Andrew Marin

      Lori – Wow! Thank you so much for sharing that!! Very, very powerful; and unfortunately an all to common reality.

  • prefer2banonymous

    You hit the nail on the head (for me and my wife, anyway) with respect to the discordant sex drives. We are one of those (presumably) rare cases where my wife has the stronger sex drive. In the beginning, we were pretty compatible in that respect, but over the years my sex drive has decreased, while her’s hasn’t. (This illustrates one reason why sex before marriage wouldn’t have been very informative in this case.) This has taken some time and effort for us to come to grips with, due in no small part to the lack of resources relating to this discordance. (Most men would think I was crazy for having this “problem”.)

    Your observations on intensity are also very sensible. Experimenting with different techniques, language, etc., can be a very useful way to get through those periods when sex is stale or when there is discordance.

    • Andrew Marin

      Prefer – Thanks for keeping it real with that. Here’s the thing, what you just said is like the unspoken plague. I have a few friends of mine who are male that their wives have greater sex drives than themselves. They are ashamed, embarrassed, and don’t feel like “men.” That’s a travesty that they feel so alone and don’t have a place to talk and journey with it because the reality is that many Christian pastors (and let’s be honest, MOST resources period) only promote typical male/female gender roles when it comes to sex, and can’t comprehend a women’s drive is greater than a man’s. Glad you’ve found a way forward. Much love.

    • Amen_to_that

      I can relate to this. We’re in our late 40s and it really started around four or five years ago. What I’ve found is that our sex life now is more of a mirror of underlying problems in our marriage than it was when we were younger. It’s not that I don’t have drive, I just don’t have desire for her that I used to, which is wrapped up in issues we’ve had in a variety of areas. The more we work on our issues together outside of the bedroom, the more things get better for us in the bedroom (and other locations!).

      Let me also say that as a culture, we’re over-the-top sex obsessed (well, duh). But when things are not going well in the bedroom, being surrounded by images, inferences, etc. about sex all the time does not help work out what sex really is for us. When we suddenly equate sex with the desire to do the “forbidden” or make it into something that is somehow a passage-way into newly found nirvana, I think we’ve got things out of whack. Couples need to make their own rules about what works for them. At its best, sex will provide a capstone to an already well-functioning relationship–icing on the cake so to speak. If it’s promoted as being anything more than that, we’re doomed to be obsessed with that which will not satisfy, forever.

  • Steve Schuler

    In many of the youth conferences and church events I went to, the message I often got was, “After you get married, you can have sex whenever and however you want.” The problem was that they often forgot to note that “you” was plural, not singular. (Or maybe my 17-year-old brain filtered that part out.) Come to find out, one of the reasons that sexual self-restraint is important before marriage is that it’s also important within marriage. Self-control is not a temporary exercise that suddenly becomes irrelevant when your situation changes. It is a virtue for a lifetime. We should be clearer in showing engaged couples that, as Christians, the habits of self-control and fidelity (not to mention gentleness, kindness, generosity, and forgiveness) that they cultivate during courtship should continue and, in fact, grow during marriage.

    • Andrew Marin

      Steve – If you were sitting here with me you would hear me going “mmmmmmmmmmm.” Great, great point.

  • Melissa

    Completely agree. Have yet to hear a sex talk from Christians that is actually helpful (well I guess besides this one:). And we wonder why people look to other sources to learn about sex. It’s either a hush-hush or guilt-ridden issue or it’s so over the top that it creates unrealistic expectations. I read an article once about how the pressure put on women to perform well and be sexy for their husbands has a really negative affect on girls who have been abused, which is a growing majority, who feel guilt that they aren’t comfortable with themselves because someone has taken advantage of them in the past. It’s an amazing and heart-wrenching article. Here’s the link if anyone would like to read it: http://deeperstory.com/the-sexy-wife-i-cant-be/

    Also, I feel like talking frankly about sex, or sexual tension, is even worse when it comes to homosexuality. I was talking once with a “sex expert” in my church about how to talk with someone who is figuring out their sexuality. If it was a girl talking to me she told me to start out by addressing the “elephant in the room” and saying “Hey look, I know I’m hot and I know you’re probably going to have some thoughts about me while we’re talking but that doesn’t mean we can’t be friends.” I was mortified. Was she seriously suggesting that I should assume this person was attracted to me just because they like girls? Did she actually think it would be helpful to inadvertently make light of their situation? Was she that uncomfortable with talking frankly about sex that she thought if she put everything potentially uncomfortable for her out there in the open to start out with then she wouldn’t have to deal with it?
    Talking “frankly” about sex has been reduced to saying “controversial” things, sexy words and getting people to laugh. I feel bad for the high schoolers that have to sit through these sex talks year after year. There has to be a better way of doing it.

    • Andrew Marin

      Melissa – Thanks for that link! Tons of profound stuff on there.

  • Cole

    Great article! I strongly abstained from sex before I was married but unfortunately simply “not doing” something doesn’t keep you from idolizing it in your heart. The first few months of my marriage were very sexually frustrating because the monster that I had let fester in my heart (all while abstaining from sex) was set free. Thank God for His grace and continued patience with me. Not to mention the patience He gave my wife in dealing with me ;)

  • Elinor

    the article may have been lacking but the personal digs on your part were uncalled for. Knowing what these two have been through and the MESS that they did have they have come a long way and want others to be encouraged. by the way you can thank the editors for chopping out the reality!

    • Andrew Marin

      Elinor – Obviously you have insider information that the rest of the public does not have, both of their mess and of what the editors cut out. No one else in the public knows either of these things, so we can’t make a full assessment then on what is hidden. Also, next time you comment using a fake name, please change the email as well. I can see your email and know that you are either Jake’s mom or sister or something, because you have a different name than you posted and you have Jake’s same last name. That’s not trying to be mean, just trying to help you out in the future.

  • Jim

    When did everybody get so self-conscious…so inward? I’m with you Andrew though I am 60+. Kids find your groove, respect your partner’s groove, and well…groove!

  • John Fix

    Andrew, although I did like what you had to say on the topic, I was disheartened at your unfair caricature of Jake and Melissa, whom you admit to not knowing. As someone who I know has received his share of unfounded and unfair criticism from people who don’t know you, I was surprised that you threw a blanket characterization on the Kirchners in such a public forum without knowing who they are and what they may have gone through. Full disclosure: I am a friend of the Kirchners. My biased opinion is that they are an amazing, godly couple who have sacrificed a lot to follow a calling to serve youth in New England. Yet I would never assume to know even a small part of the joys and trials they have been through in their marriage. They never portrayed themselves as the perfect example, so why would you lay them out as if they did. This portrayal may not have been your intention, and I may even have misunderstood what you were trying to say, but I would suggest that you be a little more careful in the future of how you critique articles. We are all on body of Chris, and we need to be careful about what we say online.

    • Andrew Marin

      Very true John. Parts of what I said were indeed a little snarky, but you have to admit they are the typical couple the church props up as acceptable to give advice. As I said to Elinor above, “Obviously you have insider information that the rest of the public does not have, both of their mess and of what the editors cut out. No one else in the public knows either of these things, so we can’t make a full assessment then on what is hidden.”

      • http://engagingtheshadowsofyouthministry.com Matt

        “They are the typical couple the church props up as acceptable to give adivce.”

        == therefore, libel them.

        • Andrew Marin

          Matt – I’m sorry, it’s not a label. It’s a fact.

  • Jill

    I completely agree with John and the inappropriate personal criticism that was given Jake and Melissa. I do appreciate your perspectives and additional comments regarding their article, however to assume that they, or anyone, comes from a perfect situation or marriage is ignorant and narrow minded. I do not have a perfect marriage or a perfect sex life, and I will be honest I can relate to a lot of what they wrote as well as what you wrote. If I were to say the one thing I wish people had told me about sex before marriage I don’t think it would necessarily be the same as everyone else. I think we all go in sinking some things and not knowing others, thinking we know things, and being shocked when its different. Every level of intimacy is impacted by the life that we have experienced up till the time in which we have it.

    • http://www.kaleidoscopepgh.com Akirah

      Agreed. No need to hate on the Kirchers. They can’t help that they’re pregnant and she’s pretty. :)

      • Andrew Marin

        Akirah – Very true! I am happy for their beauty and pregnancy as well! Seriously am. I’m not trying to tear them down, but more so bring to light how there is a very clear stereotype of person/couple churches love to use as examples, put on stage and give voice to.

  • carly

    2a! 2a! 2a!!!!!!!!!
    I tell my married friends all the time how lucky they are to have actually found a person that they are willing to spend the rest of their lives with and who is willing to let them. For those of us still searching, don’t take what you’ve got for granted! It’s a blessing.

  • http://youthworktalk.com Phil Bell

    Andrew, for me, whether or not your message was good or not, your credibility has been lost in the way you spoke about others. Most people see through this style of writing.

    I think you owe Jake and Melissa an apology if you have not already done so…

  • Tea Gustavsson

    One of the problems about giving out sex advice in a Christian context is that we concentrate on the “getting-married-soons”. You can´t teach very in-depth about sex to people who haven´t had it. You must keep to the ABC. They are not ready for more. When you have had a lot of married sex, then you are ready for more and can have more in-depth discussion and techings about it.

    I´ve been married for 14 years, I expect my questions and thoughts vary greatly from those engaged, not yet marrieds as well as the ones being married for 30 years or more. I think we must have talks, teaching and discussions about this for all maturity levels as peoples understanding and experience of sex grows.

    The hard part about that, for me, is finding a way of doing that allows people to be frank and honest as well as protect their integrity. Talking about sex when you´re not having it is easy compared to talking about your existing sexual relationship.

  • Erica

    I think one thing that Christian young people need to be told about sex, is that sex isn’t about sex. It isn’t about getting one piece of anatomy inside another peice of anatomy. I think that one of the reasons couples find themselves unable to have enjoyable sex is that they treat sex as if it is a “thing to do” all in itself, like, “Let’s have sex right now” and it’s just supposed to happen on cue. Or, “it’s our wedding night, lets make this sex thing happen.”
    Sex is just another form of cuddling and intimacy – and when you really love someone and cuddle and cuddle and cuddle some more, sex happens – effortlessly – but neither is it the goal, either…. This isn’t just a “girl thing” – but seriously, touch each other as many times as you can in a day, stay close and cuddly, and sex just falls into place – regularly and continually :) And it’s not about “who’s sex drive is the strongest” or “who is sexually compatible/incompatible” at that point. It’s about love, and closeness, and sex is dynamite when it’s an act of love, not an act unto itself. My guy and I made each other a promise at the beginning of our relationship – never to “have sex” with each other, always to “make love” to each other. I wonder if so much of the sexual dysfunction couples experience is because they have sex way out of its context of warm, deep, intimate attachment, and somewhere off in “this is an exercise we’re supposed to do because we’re married” land.

    • Andrew Marin

      Erica – That’s a very interesting perspective that I had not heard of communicated before.

  • Mark Campbell

    I had to re-read your blog as well as The Kircher’s blog. For further context, I visited your website before I responded. As a married Christian man and a student of the bible, and a disciple of Jesus, I found your point of view of “sex” to be provocative and sadly unbibilcal. The word sex and the act of sex, is misleading, confusing, and misunderstood to so many, christian and non-christian alike. It (sex) was ordained by God in the beginning and is a gift to be shared between man and wife in intimate relationship, just as individuals we are to have a intimate relationship with God. Adam and Eve were instructed to “be fruitful and multiply” which means not only to bear children through sex, but to grow in intimate relationship to each other in the “fruits” of the spirit. You know like being patient, kind, long suffering, etc. Personally in my marriage it was at times frustrating for both of us before I surrendered, not only to My Lord, but to my wife and started listening to her. When “sex” is defined and reduced to only an act between husband and wife, that creates a problem. Erica had the most biblical response that I saw and to which you replied “that’s a very interesting perspective that I had not heard of communicated before”. If love, for God and for one another (husband and wife in this case), is not the driving force, everything else including sex, just gets reduced to an unfulfilled act. Peace

    • James Ratcliffe

      Mark, I feel like you’ve missed the point of the article. And I disagree with most of what you said. I quibble with your summary of “unbiblical” but since you didn’t elaborate I’ll just say that based on my own bible studies I didn’t spot anything scripturally egregious in Mr. Marin’s article.
      “The word sex and the act of sex, is misleading, confusing, and misunderstood to so many.” No, it’s really not. (I disagree with Erica as well here, so yay!) Sure, sometimes sex is this deep, connective, transcendent experience for both partners that you and Erica hint at. Sometimes it is just Wednesday night and you have 20 minutes before you have to go down and swap out loads of laundry in the coin-op machines of your apartment complex. AND THAT’S FINE TOO.
      To address your last sentence: Yes, love for God and then loving our spouse as ourselves should be what everything in our lives stem from. Not gonna argue with that. But that’s not the point of this article. This article is about Four Actually “Real” Things About Sex. Calling them unbiblical doesn’t make them untrue. Or Unuseful. Which isn’t actually a word.

  • Nunnya Bisniss

    Andrew, thank you for your candor! I am a young female, almost married for 3 years now. I was a technical virgin until our wedding night, and like most Christian youth you are referring to was very unaware and uneducated about the possible variance in libido. Mine is raging, and his is modest, and we had NO IDEA about this before landing in the middle of not knowing what to do. Working through that, with no Christians giving real advice is discouraging, to say the least. The thing I have been struggling with is this: Is masturbation unhealthy in this instance? It seems like a little self-love goes a long way in terms of not pressuring him, being more appreciative of the times we have (when they finally come around), and not allowing my sexual frustration to spill over into other areas of our relationship – which is FAR too easy to do. I realize that is a very broad question, and one to which I have not yet found any answer, but any guidance you may have (trusting in your commitment to openness and honesty) is greatly appreciated!

    • Juli

      Thank goodness, another gal like me! Except I’m not married and have to rely on self-pleasure in frustrating times. And because of my background (though I wasn’t explicitly told that it was bad), I always felt guilt and shame in it up until the last few years. I think it’s only unhealthy if, like anything, it becomes an addiction, replaces sex, or involves lust over someone who isn’t your husband. To me, a little self-love is appreciating our God-given anatomy. I’m not Andrew, but I wanted to let you know that you are definitely not alone in the issue of a raging libido..and in fact, it’s an issue I’ve been wrestling with for years.

  • Katlyn

    Great article and helpful. To all those who bashed this article they must not get the point. I found this encouraging I didn’t feel like it was bashing on the Kircher’s at all only saying there is something missing from the conversation the rest of us uninformed readers don’t see. Great job sharing truth Andrew. I’d like to have see more on this conversation and the practical side. So we were not told before marriage or we were unprepared for what we are now facing. Life goes on. We are married now and I would hope we love our partners inspite of the trials we face in sex. It would be nice to hear more practical advice on how to get past things like different sex drives. What do those conversations look like? Where are the resolutions in those marriage situations?

  • Juli

    I can’t thank you enough for this article. I’m a single Christian twenty-something who is dedicated to waiting to have sex when I’m married. But I’m finding out that I have a healthy libido and while my resolve to not act on it with another person is fine, it’s really difficult to cope with that frustration. Even though this article didn’t talk directly about that – you did (thank you thank you) mention that women can have a high sex drive. The Church seems to teach that “don’t let him do x” when, hey..girls can want sex too! I think the Church does need to be more candid about sex. We still suffer from a puritanical streak that says sex is shameful. It was created for a reason!

    Last summer we had a guest preacher from Woodland Hills Family Church (Branson, MO) who talked about sex in one of the most encouraging ways I’ve ever heard. It was real. He shared that teenagers and young adults like me are told to wait, and that sex is bad (or at least, is something not to talk about and to be ashamed of), but then when we do get married..we’re thrown into a sex life and told to “have fun” when it’s been instilled in us to avoid it at all costs. So a lot of Christian married couples aren’t able to have a fun, mutually enjoyable sex life. They also provided a great “Menu” to help married couples with a lack of a sex life ask eachother honest and straight-forward questions about how they view sex and what they like. It should be a no-brainer, but it apparently isn’t.

    Bless you for being open about real, as always.

    I’d say bless you for the point about intense sex (which THANK YOU THANK YOU) but that’s so much “in theory” for me. But it’s so important to remember that God is not and has not micromanaged sex lives within marriage. How people have it – when mutual love and appreciation and consent are in the picture – shouldn’t matter so much. I think the mentality that it has to be sweet and tender and in the missionary position every time creates a lot of problems for the sex lives of Christian couples.

  • http://tonymyles.blogspot.com Tony Myles

    Andrew –

    Admittedly, I had a hard time reading your points because it felt like you were slamming this couple. Their advice may fit into a category of ministry that you’re frustrated with, but to spend time observing how they look and who they must be based on a blog is 2-dimensional. Surely you know how frustrating it must be to have someone discount your thoughts based on what they’ve already concluded.

    Per what this couple is offering in terms of advice, it’s legitimate. It may not be as textured as what you would give, but it’s legitimate. I remember when I once shared biblical truth with mom (I was a teen at the time, and she wasn’t yet a Christian). She said, “You can’t tell me that. You haven’t had the experiences I’ve had to qualify you to say that.” In perhaps one of my first Holy Spirit moments of truth-telling, I replied, ‘This isn’t Tony-sized truth. It’s from the Bible, which means it’s eternal wisdom that everybody needs to listen to. God’s been around longer than any of us.”

    Maybe that’s why a child can often say something unexpectedly profound that silences a room.

    On the other end, do the Kirchers have something to learn? Might their ministry be more “informed” as time goes on? Could something they say in simple form today be better explained in a year or more? Sure, and let’s make sure we substitute the name “Kirchers” for “Myles,” “Marin” and everyone else, too.

    For any valid points you might make, my sense is you wrote this with baggage that doesn’t have the Kircher’s name on it… perhaps their “bags” just look like the same company and color. The end result is if someone Googles the Kirchers you have added some unnecessary discouragement to the very God-honoring thing they’re trying to do. Not ever couple who is speaking into the theme of marriage is trying to do it to make a million dollars… some are just doing what they can to recapture a beauty that the rest of the world has made ugly. I’d suggest we get behind that so less people can put off the GLBT topics because we haven’t gotten our own heterosexual stuff together.

    • http://tonymyles.blogspot.com Tony Myles

      “Not ever couple…” = “Not every couple…”

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  • generation4Him

    I agree that this blog post unnecessarily cuts up on this couple. But there is also truth that there is a stock image of what a christian couple is supposed to be like – white, young, similar ages, and pregnant within a few months of marriage. Would we listen as well to the multiracial couple that has a 15 year age difference, one with a physical handicap and the other one massively overweight, and who is pregnant only after a year of fertility treatments? Would we talk as easily about “what they have been through” and let them be our heros? Maybe – but maybe not.


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