So you say you don’t hate gay people, Part I

One thing I have heard a lot recently is Christians who oppose marriage equality insisting, over and over again, that they are not homophobic. They don’t hate gay people, they love them, they really really do! Or at least, that’s what they say. And I remember being there – I remember saying the same thing, and meaning it. And so now, with all the recent hubbub over Chick-fil-a, I have to ask myself. Is it true? Can someone could be against marriage equality, and even think that homosexuality is wrong, and yet not “hate” gay people?

I’m not going to give you my answer to that question up front. I’ve been mulling over this for days now, and I’m going to hash out my thoughts on the subjects in two posts, one today and one tomorrow. So, you’re just going to have to keep reading! 

Let’s imagine that people are whacking me with sticks over and over again, all the while saying “we don’t hate you, we really don’t!” You know what? In this situation, I really don’t care whether or not they hate me – I just want them to stop hitting me!

The first thing I would say to Christians who oppose gay rights, then, is this: It doesn’t matter whether or not you hate gay people, your actions are hurting them! What do you think opposing their rights feels like to them? Love? Heck no! Actually, it feels a whole lot like hate!

Of course, back in the day I would have said that I don’t oppose gay people’s rights, they have the same rights as anyone else – they can get married, they just have to marry people of the opposite sex. But now I know better.

I know that in many places in the country, gay people can still be legally discriminated against in things like housing.

I know that gay people who are legally married in one state may not have their marriage recognized in another state (something I don’t have to worry about when travelling across country).

I know that gay parents face huge legal hurdles when looking at adoption, even something as simple as legally adopting their partner’s biological child.

Gay people don’t want special rights. They want the rights everyone else has – to be allowed to marry a person they love, to raise a family with that person, to be legally recognized as next of kin in making medical decisions.

And so I would say this to someone who opposes gay rights and yet claims not to hate gay people: For not hating them you’re sure causing them a lot of harm. Take it from a gay friend of mine who had this to say when I discussed this issue with him: “From my perspective, I just feel hatred.”

Or maybe take a moment to read Sierra’s post, “I Don’t Hate Gay People, They Just Shouldn’t Get Married”: Chick-fil-A’s Supporters Need a Lesson on Structural Violence. Here’s an excerpt:

The point is this: opposing equal rights for LGBTQ people means placing them at a severe social disadvantage. It means singling them out as an inferior class. … It’s not the blunt force trauma of open, personal hatred, the baseball bat that hits you in the face but will eventually heal. “Hate” can barely begin to describe the acid burn of discrimination. It whittles away at your soul, turning supposed friends and loved ones against you, denying your right to voice your pain, insisting that if you could just bedifferent you would be accepted like everyone else.

The truth is, I would rather take a baseball bat to the face. I would rather live in a world where some people fervently hate me, but the rest recognize my rights as a free and equal citizen. Why should gay people care whether or not evangelical Christians hate them? It’s not about emotion. It’s about survival.

Disadvantaged people don’t care that you don’t hate them.

Or maybe listen to the Slacktivist, who pointed out that you can’t deny people their rights and be nice about it:

Look, here’s the deal: It doesn’t matter if you think you’re a nice person. And it doesn’t matter if your tone, attitude, sentiments and facial expressions are all very sweet, kindly and sympathetic-seeming. If you’re opposing legal equality, then you don’t get to be nice. Opposing legal equality is not nice and it cannot be done nicely.

Or perhaps see if you can find a way to answer the Friendly Atheist when he asks, if you oppose marriage equality what else am I supposed to call you? 

There is no way to oppose equal rights for gay people without being a bigot/homophobe/asshole/pick-your-word.

You can’t say I love my black friends, but I don’t think they should be allowed to marry white people… without simultaneously being a racist.

It doesn’t matter how big of a smile you put on your face, or how many gay friends you (think you) have, or how often you’ve gone to a gay pride parade.

If you’re voting against marriage equality, you’re a bigot. If you’re denying somebody a right that you possess — for no rational basis whatsoever — I don’t know what else to call you. There’s not a single, credible, non-religious reason to deny equal rights to gay people.

Is bigot too strong of a word? It doesn’t matter. The hurt feeling you have when you get called a mean name pales in comparison to the hurt the LGBT community feels when you strip their rights away.

But you know what? Those people are all still trying to explain this nicely. The Blag Hag takes her gloves off:

I call you a bigot because you support those terrible things I listed above: legally denying GLBT individuals equal rights, slandering them publicly, damaging them through terrible psychological programs, and even killing them. You can call me a bigot if I start campaigning that Chick-Fil-A-Holes should not be able to marry, adopt, or serve in the military. You can call me a bigot if I ship my friends off for traumatic psychological boot camps because they dared to eat a chicken sandwich. You can call me a bigot if I compare being Republican to pedophilia, bestiality, or necrophilia.

Go ahead and yell until you’re blue in the face that you don’t hate gay people, if you are actively working to make them second class citizens by denying them equal rights, it doesn’t matter whether or not you hate them. Your actions are harmful, incredibly harmful, and to the people at the receiving end they feel very, very hateful.

 

About Libby Anne

Libby Anne grew up in a large evangelical homeschool family highly involved in the Christian Right. College turned her world upside down, and she is today an atheist, a feminist, and a progressive. She blogs about leaving religion, her experience with the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements, the detrimental effects of the "purity culture," the contradictions of conservative politics, and the importance of feminism.

  • http://itsjustahobby.wordpress.com/ jemima101

    I reached the same conclusion, and it has couloured my view massivly of some of the people within my Church. at the same time there are others I have been able to open the eyes of, who now accept that their words were hateful, and abusive, no matter how many times they claimed they were said with love.
    We are currently in the situation in the UK of the Chritian right (favorite ever bumper sticker, they arent, it isnt) claiming that allowing Gay marriage is an attack on Christianity, without any real scriptual basis for their views.
    http://itsjustahobby.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/motes-and-planks-and-sex/

    My conclusion here is that it is nothing more than bigotry and hatred motivating them.

    This is a shorter version of a discussion I led at Church, without the analysis of what aresenokonites actually means, which is a bit dry perhaps for a general sex blog.

    • Rosa

      I really don’t understand that argument at ALL. Isn’t it then also true that allowing for purely civil marriages is an attack on Christianity? As well as recognizing religious marriages of other faiths? (I actually don’ know how that works in the UK. In the US in most states ordained ministers are automatically allowed to legally marry people. Including ministers of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Satanist churches)

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  • Steve

    Some of the most fucked up Christians are the ones who claim that they are concerned for people’s souls, so they constantly have to get in other people’s face about their “sins”. And this is somehow showing “love”. That system is just set up to create a high level of abuse and bullying.

    • smrnda

      Given that I think religions are false, I think you’ve hit what one of the major purposes they serve – they give judgmental people ammunition in feeling entitled to get in other people’s face about what they should be doing.

  • http://www.brooksandsparrow.com Angelia Sparrow

    But it’s “tough love!” We have to make life EXTRA hard for gay people so they’ll stop being gay and become Christians!

    I actually heard that argument. I am pleased to report that I did not bodily assault the speaker.

    • http://www.lara-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.com lara

      I think this is where all the problems lie. These people still believe that gay people can stop being gay. That’s the argument I hear so much too. They feel like they are being parents disciplining their children for wrong doing. But my daughter actually CAN learn to use her words instead of hitting her brother. My friend CANNOT learn to be sexually attracted to women instead of men. I suppose he can choose to be celibate, but why require that of him? It doesn’t make sense.

      • Elle Leon

        YES THEY CAN DO

        LIKE HOOKERS CAN STOP BEING HOOKERS
        ” THIEVES ” ” ” THIEVES
        ” CROOKS ” ” ” CROOKS

      • Melanie

        Can you choose not to be a heterosexual? I know I can’t so it would seem very presumptuous of me to assume that other people can choose their own sexuality. I’d be interested to know if you felt, personally, that you had made the choice to be heterosexual?

      • TravelingTxn

        Can a white person decide they are black?

        can a blonde decide they are really a brunette (without help from hair dye)

        Changing careers is making a life style change. Deciding not to steal shit is a life style change. Changing your sexuality is not the same thing.

        You know what else is a life style choice? Your religion. Its very easy to change your religion, especially just to change it enough that you can actually accept people for who they are and not discriminate against them.

      • Elleleon

        Are u kidding, right? Born black is not a choice, be gay is A CHOICE. God gave us freedom of choice. He created the man and the woman, he created marriage between man and a woman, nothing else. Something else is created by man alone for their own selfishness. and self destruction. You and only you can control your desires. And sex is a desire of the body IT IS CONTROLLABLE
        I donot discriminate, I do accept them for who they are, I just dont accept their actions.

      • The_L1985

        Really, now? Please tell me when you decided you didn’t want to be attracted to women, and only wanted to be physically/romantically attracted to men. Because I don’t remember that ever happening to me or anyone else I know.

        I decided from an early age that stealing or damaging other people’s things is wrong.

        Also, please stop using Caps Lock. That’s like screaming at us at the top of your lungs and is extremely rude. There’s a button next to your A key. It says “Caps Lock.” Often it has a little light. Make sure that light is turned off.

  • Ismenia

    I find that the same is true with other kinds of prejudice. Many people will swear they aren’t racist. By that they mean that they don’t hate people of other races. However, the same people will often express racist sentiments (usually prefaced with “I’m not racist but…”) and then be offended if the racism is pointed out and tell you all about their friend who is Black/Asian/Jewish or whatever. The truth is that you don’t need to be a raging neo-Nazi to be racist and the casual racism is insidious because it’s so much harder to combat.

  • http://www.lara-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.com lara

    Yes, Yes, Yes and YES!!!

  • http://thaliasmusingsnovels.com/ Amethyst

    “Let’s imagine that people are whacking me with sticks over and over again, all the while saying ‘we don’t hate you, we really don’t!’ ”

    Isn’t this what they do to their kids all the time, though? “Mommy’s holding you down and beating you with a stick because she loves you, honey. This is hurting Mommy more than it’s hurting you.”

    • Steve

      Yep. Christianity is like an abuse relationship

      • Elle Leon

        U REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT U TALKING

        CHRISTIANITY IS A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS

      • Conuly

        Dude, stop shouting.

      • The_L1985

        And some people twist Christianity and use it as a tool for abuse. The fact that you have a good relationship with Jesus and use it as a reason to live a good, caring life with respect for others (I hope!) does not change the fact that some Christians are very, very bad people.

    • http://findingsnooze.blogspot.com Lina

      Oh snap. Wow, yes.

  • John Murphy

    Given your atheism, how exactly do you condemn someone who (for instance) hates gays. Where did that standard of morality come from and why do you feel free to apply it to everyone else? I understand that you think it is wrong, fine and good. Why are you assuming that everyone else’s brain evolved with your same moral standards?

    • Mark Temporis

      Standard of morality comes from the same as anyone else: your own beliefs. Even if you think they come from god, someone back in time made up god anyway –I mean, its pretty obvious. Has there ever been a supernatural explanation that was actually correct?

      • Pete

        So let’s assume I like killing people for fun. If my own beliefs define my morality, it’s then ok for me to come and kill you! Hahahahahaha! There is nothing more morally confused than claiming that morality comes from our own beliefs! We need a moral compass, whether supernatural or secular! You by definition cannot dictate your own morality! I say this as a challenge to your point, I’m sure you are a great human being, so please don’t take it personally. Good luck in finding your moral compass… :)

      • anne marie hovgaard

        Some people like killing people, and believe they have a right to do so. The rest of society tends to believe differently, so we do our best to stop them. If everybody believed that it was a good thing for them to kill everybody else just for fun, that society would obviously cease to exist pretty soon. Groups consisting of people who believe that they should help and support, not kill, eachother are more likely to survive. This is hardly rocket science.

      • Anat

        Pete, indeed everyone develops their own moral sense, and many people have moralities I disagree with as well as moralities I can’t make sense of, that’s life. Which is why it is a bad idea to base laws directly on morality. The goal of laws should be to make a society where people can have the best life, overall. Your hypothetical mass killer enjoys himself while causing misery and harm to others, so they make arrangements to stop him. Whereas people marrying the person of their choice, regardless of which configuration of genitalia they have doesn’t harm anyone.

    • Rosa

      In this post she’s actually not condemning bigotry, just labeling it. It’s the people who claim to love those they hurt who condemn the hatred.

      But, most of us grew up in Western post-Enlightenment cultures that value equality, civility, and the individual. America’s founding documents are from that era and the writers of the the Constitution were educated along the then-new philosophical and scientific standards. So even people who say their values come from the Bible use the language – natural rights, equality, empiricism, freedom. So instead of just saying “The Bible says we should hate gay people” many Christians say “allowing gays to marry impinges on our freedom to practice our religion!” because that language of rights of citizens is part of our shared culture.

      • Betty

        There is no where in the Bible that says we should hate gay people. However, the Bible is very clear on how God views the act of homosexuality. We are not supposed to hate gay people, but that does not mean we do not hate the act of homosexuality. I have known several people and some of them are close friends who were openly gay and in steady relationships, but at a later point in time began to consider their relationship to the Lord and asked for His help in turning away from that life. They are all now in heterosexual relationships and have wonderful families. I am not saying that they may not still have the propensity to be gay, but they are allowing God to lead them and give them joy in their lives without the sin of homosexuality. That takes a lot of courage and I admire them for their choice. I can do nothing about the legislature or the gay rights issue and that is not really what I care about. I do care about the relationship of everyone gay or not with our Lord Jesus Christ because ,ultimately, non-belief is what condemns us, not our sin. Yet, when we completely and seriously put it all in His hands, He will be the one to change us to be who He wants us to be. But, we must become like clay and submit wholly to His will and the way we know what His will is for us is to read His Word, the Bible because that is where we find His grace and His love…..so much love that He gave His son up to die a horrible death on the cross so that we do not have to pay for our sins, He did that for us. Eternal life is a free gift; all you have to do is acknowledge that Jesus paid the debt for all your sins – past, present, and future and ask Him to help you live your life for Him. You don’t have to do anything else because He will change you and give you a desire for His Word as well as a desire to follow His Will. I am a sinner, but I am saved by His grace. Does this mean that I won’t ever sin again? No, because I am human I will sin, but I strive not to and I know that I am forgiven if I mess up.

      • ki sarita

        Betty do you hate the sin of eating pork or of having sex during menses as much as you hate the sin of gay sex?

    • machintelligence

      Humans are a social species. Our moral sense is an evolved instinctive behavior to allow us to live in groups larger than family units. The study of descriptive ethics has shown that most people, whatever culture they come from, share the same moral judgments. See the trolley problem, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley

    • Besomyka

      Empathy. It’s how our brains work.

  • Rebecca Newman

    I really find it hard to believe that this crap is happening in this country in 21st century!co The fact that unequal rights for gays so obviously violates the Constitution – what are we waiting for? The only lens through which homosexuality could be possibly viewed as wrong is that of religion, and that is so unjust.

    And if I hear one more Christian smugly tell me that she LOVES gay people, she has gay FRIENDS, but what they’re doing is wicked and she tells them that…It makes so mad that I feel like gnashing my teeth in frustration.

    • Elle Leon

      I DO I LOVE U WITH YOUR CHOICES

  • smrnda

    For all the people who say “I have gay friends but I’m against gay marriage” – I have broken off my friendships with anyone who is against gay marriage, and told them why – you can’t deny my OTHER friends – who love each other JUST AS MUCH AS YOUR “TRUDISHUNUL MARRIAGE” – the right to get married and deserve to be my friend.

    • Pete

      I feel sorry for your friends. I hope that someday your relationships will be restored.

      • Elle Leon

        I AGREED

    • Elle Leon

      I DONT AGREE WITH SAME SEX MARRIAGE
      i love people including my gay friends, I love the person NOT WHAT THEY DO, same way they do to me,
      THEY LOVE ME AND THEY MIGHT NOT LOVE WHAT I DO.

      WE HAVE TO LOVE EACH OTHER, Jesus said, but what they do doesnt change my love for them.

      • TravelingTxn

        Elle you are full of complete and utter shite on this. Allow me to demonstrate:

        I dont hate black people, infact I love black people, I just dont like their skin color and dont think they should be able to get married.

        Or one that might strike a little more closely to home for you given the persecution complex so many Christians seem to have:

        I dont hate Christians, I just hate their beliefs and dont think they should be able to get married legally.

        If you still dont get it, maybe you need a real life lesson in empathy and compassion because from where Im standing you sure dont have a lot of em.

      • Cleo

        TravelingTxn, your argument makes no sense.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        That was kind of the point. None of those statements make sense.

        1) i love people including my gay friends, I love the person NOT WHAT THEY DO, same way they do to me, (Elle Leon)
        2) I dont hate black people, infact I love black people, I just dont like their skin color and dont think they should be able to get married. (TravelingTxn)
        3) I dont hate Christians, I just hate their beliefs and dont think they should be able to get married legally. (TravelingTxn)

        Txn was using Elle’s own logic against hir; Elle’s statement clearly and obviuosly doesn’t make sense, which is the message Txn was trying to get across by substituting “Christian” or “black” for “gay”.

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  • https://www.facebook.com/MBWinkel Matthew B. Winkel

    This Reconciling (http://www.rmnetwork.org) United Methodist and rabid straight ally & “cis bro” of the GLBT community yells,

    “Huzzah!!!”

    And politely assures everyone that most Christians are NOT evil. ;-D

  • Ms

    Just because a person feels love for someone does not give them right to marry them. For example, a 25 year old man cannot marry an 8 year old girl (in the USA at least for now). A mother cannot marry her son. There are valid social, emotional, physical and spiritual reasons for this.
    This cannot be a proper legal matter until the empirical case has been made that a homosexual partnership and a marriage are indistinguishable. Otherwise, the appeal amounts to nothing more than a request that homosexual partners be allowed to call themselves what they want to call themselves regardless of the differences that exist in reality. I know of men who had sex with men and women whom had sex with women and they are no longer in these relationships. If they were born this way or wired this way – they would not be able to stop it — but they did. Sexual intercourse and attraction is a choice because I and others have lived it. The militant gays are harming their cause by spewing hate and demanding that everyone give them what they want – they haven’t been denied any rights (see Constitution and Bill of Rights).

    • ScottInOH

      Just because a person feels love for someone does not give them right to marry them. For example, a 25 year old man cannot marry an 8 year old girl…

      Consent is what matters. An 8-year-old can’t give consent in a meaningful way. Two adult men or women can.

    • machintelligence

      Ms:
      For a longer discussion of just this topic, head over to Part 4, especially the comments thread. Oh, and hold on to your hat. :-)

    • Steve

      Bisexuality….it exists

    • Rosie

      Not only does bisexuality exist, but even “traditional” marriage doesn’t necessarily last forever. Who was that celebrity with the 72-hour marriage? So sometimes men who have sex with women and women who have sex with men are “no longer in these relationships”. What does that prove?

      • The_L1985

        IIRC, Britney Spears was once in a 50-something-hour marriage.

    • smrnda

      I know plenty of people who have been in same-sex relationships for longer than I’ve been alive, and longer than many heterosexual marriages. Whether a person can change orientation is clearly something which doesn’t have a lot more than anecdotal evidence in its favor, and that just because some people change mean that everybody can, or should.

      The things that make a marriage to me are love, honestly, commitment, understanding each other, things like that. I see that in plenty of opposite sex and same sex relationships, and I think the ‘well, a penis isn’t going into a vagina’ to be a pretty trivial marker of what’s a marriage and what’s not.

      • http://patheos Amber

        I feel the same way me my self im a women and i was born gay still a virgin im just attracted to the same sex.Im 18 in have been in a very happy relationship with a women that I meet when I was only 12 years old.And im so thankful for my family not being against of who I am.

    • Devilmunkey

      ‘millitant gays’ Are these in league with all the ‘millitant’ atheists; killing people and blowing things up that I keep reading about in the news?

  • Joshua

    There are actually non-religious reasons not to give gay people the same marriage benefits as straight people. Traditional marriage benefits society better than any other relationship, which is why government has a role in governing the relationship. There has been a lot of research on this, just google it. Just as (federal) government does not change the definition to allow you to marry more than one person, it does not recognize or reward gay marriage because it doesn’t benefit society. Clinton was the one who signed the defense of marriage act.

    • Steve

      You mean the same law that has been found unconstitutional by a half a dozen federal courts and will soon be found unconstitutional by the Supreme Court?

    • Paula G V aka Yukimi

      How does straight marriage benefit society more than gay marriage? Do you have any peer reviewed study that proves that or is just some article by an archaic values platform?

    • smrnda

      Even if you could make a case that one relationship benefits society ‘more’ than another, unless another relationship is actually harmful to society I can see no reason to prohibit it. On top of that, gay people are part of society, and getting married would be good for them, so it’s at least good for someone.

      What you seem to be saying is that since some people see no value in gay marriage – and the same people typically see no value in anything but their own narrow vision of what’s a ‘proper marriage,’ that their opinions should matter? Gay marriage benefits gay people, and I don’t see it harming straight people.

    • Devilmunkey

      Why should marriage ‘benefit society’? Since when has that been an intrinsic property of marriage? Why not just allow two people who love each other declare it and enjoy the same rights as anyone else; would that not make ‘society’ stronger?

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  • http://peterscrossstation.wordpress.com/ Shannon LC Cate

    Thank you so much for this. It’s so hard for me to explain this because I’m usually all hot with rage and pain that I get all spluttery and illogical.
    But the whole love the sinner/hate the sin thing is such crap. They love the “sinner” too (by the very belief that being gay is a sin in the first place). If you don’t love the lesbian part of me, you don’t love me–because being a lesbian is essential to whom I actually am. If I wasn’t a lesbian I’d be a whole other person.

    • http://peterscrossstation.wordpress.com/ Shannon LC Cate

      See? Spluttery! I of course meant to say they HATE the sinner too…

  • Jennifer

    LOL The idea that people hate gays because we don’t want to redefine marriage is amusing. Many gays don’t WANT to get married, they just want to be left alone, with liberals screeching at them to come out and scream what they are in other people’s faces night and day. Now San Francisco’s decided to be loving, by allowing public nudity and praising gay and pornographic sex whenever they can; that’s love all right. Funny thing is, when they decided to do this, all kinds of perverts and porn sellers thought it fit to come out and advertise their wares; strange connection there.

    • Devilmunkey

      Because GAYS=PORN obviously, why is most porn ‘straight’ then? Or do facts not count?

  • Jennifer

    No Shannon, it isn’t crap. And for me, it’s not about seeing homosexuality as a filthy choice, it’s about refusing to compare it to the biological norm, which is heterosexuality and builds strong foundations: men and women working together.

    • Ray

      So because many gays don’t want to get married, none should be able too? Many heterosexuals don’t want to get married, so we should stop it for the rest of them as well? Public nudity isn’t a domain of homosexuality…the majority of nudists are straight. Pornography is also not the domain of homosexuality…the majority of porn out there is straight.

      Men and women working together do build strong foundations. So do men and men working together, and women and women working together. The key is ‘working together’. If PEOPLE work together, society benefits as a whole.
      It may not be the ‘biological norm’ but it IS a biological fact of life. Being born with albinism isn’t the biological norm. Being born left handed isn’t the biologicial ‘norm’ since most people are right handed. Being born with extremely dark skin and bright blue eyes is not the biological norm. Should we deny everyone who has some trait or aspect to their lives that does not conform to the majority rights? Because I have news for you. EVERYONE has at least one trait that is considered in the minority, even if the other 99.9% of traits they have are mirrored by the majority.

      Is it because they can’t have children? Because if that’s the reason…they can. Their gonads generally still work, and even if they didn’t, they can adopt (a benefit to society)…and we don’t deny people the ability to get married who are infertile, past the age of reproduction, or who have no desire to ever have children anyway.

      Marriage has been redefined a hundred times over the years. The ‘current’ idea of marriage…a man and a woman falling in romantic love and choosing to spend their lives together…is less than a hundred and fifty years old. You can also google that. Before that, men and women got married for financial, status, security, and land ownership reasons…ever heard of dowrys? Men owned women like property… the wedding ring he puts on her finger is actually symbolic of ownership. Before that, marriage could be between a man and several women (Solomon had 700 wives), a soldier and his prisoner of war, a rape victim and her rapist, one woman and several concubines…the list goes on.

      • Elle Leon

        WE HAVE ACCEPTED GAYS FOR CENTURIES

        BUT GETTING MARRIED WAS A NEW INVENTION FROM
        HOMOSEXUALS TO GET HANDS ON THEIR PARTNER PROPERTY

      • Conuly

        Heaven forbid people should inherit when their spouse dies.

      • TravelingTxn

        Bull shit. you are about as ignorant as you are ingratiating. Gays have been beaten/stoned/jailed/killed for centuries. Tolerance is the new invention and has only become the norm in the last 25-30 years.

      • fiona64

        Yeah, not so much. http://www.randomhistory.com/history-of-gay-marriage.html might be a good place for you to start rectifying the evident gap in your education.

    • Betty

      Another “non-religious” reason against homosexuality is the physical act itself. My brother is a doctor and as such has several friends who are proctologists and the majority of their patients are homosexual men who need surgery to repair their anuses because of unnatural use. I apologize for being so blunt, but homosexuality, especially in men does not bring positive results to their bodies because it is not normal. You can argue social issues, gay rights, etc., but you can’t argue with the biological abnormality of the act itself. The act of homosexuality is not now and never has been the intended way that human sexuality was meant to take place.
      I heard one of the people on this post say that they are angry at Christians saying that homosexuality is a sin. Well, maybe they should be saying that they are angry at God for saying it is a sin because we are only bearers of God’s Word. After all, He should know if it is sin or not, since He is the one who created us. I also agree with the comment below that all Christians should not be judged because of the few who are hypocritical. As a matter of fact, it is our rights that are being limited and we are becoming the minority in this nation. In many countries to even hint at being a Christian is the same as signing a death warrant. In our country they have taken away our right to pray in school, in some states we cannot even have private Bible study groups in our homes because it constitutes an illegal gathering, our organizations are being required to make the “abortion pill” a covered product on our insurance or be fined an absurd amount of money, our Christian doctors are being forced to consider if they even want to be doctors anymore or not because of a mandate that they must perform abortions……..and gay people are saying they don’t have rights?

      • Isaac

        So much to address, so little time…

        On the off chance that you’re not a troll of some kind, I’ll respond to some of your points.

        First of all, a quick biology lesson. I don’t know if you accept modern biology (evolution, anthropology, etc) or not, but I’ll go ahead anyway. In higher social animals such as ourselves, sex has evolved to have functions beyond mere reptilian reproduction. It is a way of strengthening bonds, adding cohesion to social groups, and other major functions including reproduction. Reproductive sex is still very important, but sex has many other functions in sophisticated creatures like ourselves.

        This might all seem like speculation to you, but the proof is in the pudding. Other advanced social animals- our great ape cousins, cetaceans, wolves, elephants- all show complex sexual behavior as part of being complex social creatures, including non-reproductive sex, part of which is homosexual behavior. Even much lower animals than these creatures and ourselves engage in homosexuality (penguins, for example). And any serious study of human history reveals all kinds of sexual behavior nearly every where. India, Greece, Rome… the list goes on and on, into our prehistory.

        I also can’t helping noticing that, like most of your ilk, you ignore female homosexual behavior entirely. What reason is behind this, I don’t know, but you can’t mention homosexuality as something exclusively male when it most definitely is not.

        What’s also amusing about this omission is that females who only have sex with other females- ie, lesbians- have a lower rate of STDs, AIDS, and nearly all the other risks of sex than do any other group, including women who identify as straight.

        One thing that liberal secular democracies have in common is freedom of speech and freedom of religion. I think you’ll find that the countries where being Christian is punishable by death and persecution are run by other religions (mainly Islam) or state personality cults (North Korea). We athiest/feminist/sexually-liberated types run amok in such horrifyingly oppressed places as… Sweden. And Germany. And Austrailia. And Scandanavia in general. Oh, the horror.

        As for the rest of your accusations, cite it or shut it. You are treading a very common path in claiming victimhood from a tyrannical secular society, but I have never seen one piece of evidence brought forward to support this accusation. If there’s such a big persecution going on, then show me where it is and I’ll defend your right to practice your religion.

        I have a feeling, though, that you have muddled the definition of “persecution” to include being prohibited from forcing your beliefs on others. Children can pray in school- but they cannot be ordered to pray by the teacher. You can believe that “the pill” causes abortions if you want- but you don’t have the right to force that belief on other people by denying them that part of their healthcare plan.

        You said you’re becoming a minority in this nation. That’s not quite true, since Christians still make up nearly 80% of the population here. But your religion is losing its grip on people to some degree, and the number of non-religious people in this nation is growing. If you want to know why, look in the mirror.

      • Anat

        Do you realize that many gay men do not have anal sex, whereas many heterosexual couples (monogamously married ones to boot!) do? There is no such thing as ‘the act of homosexuality’.

      • The_L1985

        Or as one T-shirt put it, “SO DO MY neighbors, SO DO MY friends.”

      • Steve

        Hell, anal sex is practically standard in straight porn these days. Which is no doubt why so many straight couples try it at least once.

      • Ellie

        I’m just a lurker, but when I read, “As a matter of fact, it is our rights that are being limited…” I felt I had to respond. Look, Betty…I went to church yesterday morning. Nobody stopped me, nobody threatened me. I went there freely and openly, passing 5 other churches on my way. When we were praying, nobody broke down the doors to stop us, nobody followed me home to confiscate my Bible. I’ll be in church again tonight and without fear of persecution.

        People have Bible studies in their homes all the time. What causes a problem is when it’s not a Bible study, but a church trying to pass itself off as just a few people gathering to read the Bible.

        Nobody is forbidden to pray in school. What can’t be done is state sponsored and led prayer and students are not allowed to scream Bible verses at their fellow students. Nor can adults come in and proselytize other people’s children…although they keep trying.

        You can believe whatever you want about homosexuality. You don’t have a right to insist that everyone else agree with you.

        Who are you to determine what should be included in health care coverage?
        Oh, and Lying For Jesus is still lying.

      • Devilmunkey

        ‘our Christian doctors are being forced to consider if they even want to
        be doctors anymore or not because of a mandate that they must perform
        abortions’

        Untrue; perhaps you should stop using WND as a source of information. Doctors are there to serve; not have moral judgements upon their paitients (And most are in no way involved in providing abortions).

        Also; having your societal priviledges curbed is not persecution. You get to have the same rights the rest of us enjoy.

        Finaly: I have never, and cannot imagine ever requiring surgery to ‘repair my anus’. I don’t wish to be rude, but either your ‘friend’ is lying; or you are.

      • fiona64

        Um, sweetie? You do know that straight couples do all of the same things gay couples do? And I do mean *all of them.*

        I remain astonished at how obsessed the anti-equality set are with male-on-male anal intercourse …

        And for the rest of your screed? Citation needed. Thanks in advance.

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  • Michael

    I’m a Christian and I don’t hate gay people. Just because people call themselves “Christian” doesn’t mean that they are really acting for God more or less just for themselves and are only “Christian” when it is convenient for them. As well I think it is also extremely unfair to judging a whole religion based on a few people you met that were hypocritical and really don’t have God at heart. So instead of judging a whole religion on a few people, people should do their own research. My own youth pastor tells me not to take what he preaches for true word. He tells us to read the bible and pray on our own time. I know of a lot of Christians who say that it doesn’t say anything about gay marriage in the bible. They are either lying or have not done enough study time on their own. Here are a few examples:
    http://carm.org/bible-homosexuality
    Also everyone says that Christians pass judgement on people. We are not doing anything of the sort. We are merely representatives of God and his word. No Christian is perfect but Christians all over the world suffer from hate and intolerance. In many countries today missionaries are killed for spreading God’s word.

  • friendlydebater

    hi, i just want to say that i am a christian and support the rights to gay marriage, but i still do believe its wrong. i believe that it is a sin, but people have the choice, and i am fine with that. I do believe that you can’t be a gay christian, but i am fine with these being rights when you reject religion.

    • Daniel Parnell

      I appreciate your “just because I think it’s wrong doesn’t mean it should be illegal” mentality. I wish more people thought that way.

    • belgianchic

      You can absolutely be a gay Chriistian.

  • Charles Groves

    Homosexual fanatics here are obviously fascists. Anti-homosexual-marriage people should take heart in the fact that you’re not alone. There are many millions who agree with you and are on your side.

    If the fascists threaten your job or whatever because of your beliefs, get together with others/advertise for donations and sue for your rights.

    • David Hart

      Are you for real? All that the ‘homosexual fanatics’ are demanding is the same rights as everyone else. That includes the right not to be discriminated against by religious people. Religious people do not have a right to discriminate against homosexuals in the course of their employment or provision of services.

      And no religious person’s jobs are being threatened because of their beliefs – it’s when they act on those beliefs in a discriminatory manner that the problems start. That is, you’re legally entitled to believe that gay people are an abomination and they should remain in a state of second-class citizenship, but you are not entitled to enforce this bigotry if you are an employer.

      By analogy, you are legally entitled to believe that black people are genetically inferior to white people – indeed, you’d be entitled to believe that black people don’t really count as human beings at all, but the moment you start to act on those beliefs, by refusing to hire black people, or refusing to serve them at your shop, or provide them with the same level of government services as white people (if you are a government employee), that is when you cross the line and ought to be fearful for your continued employment.

      Of course, if your beliefs are sufficiently extreme that expressing those beliefs would constitute incitement to violence, then that’s a different question.

      Just because you believe you ought to be doing something that would be illegal if you acted on that belief, doesn’t (necessarily) mean your rights are being trampled. It could, and in this case, does, mean that you are being denied a privilege that you had hitherto enjoyed, and that’s not the same thing at all. Preventing you from continuing to benefit from unfairness is not the same thing as treating you unfairly.

    • Daniel Parnell

      I don’t think “fascist” means what you think it means.

    • Conuly

      Gay people are for state ownership of all production, where everything is for the state?

      • Devilmunkey

        Yes the Ultra-gay communist agenda; one day we shall own your children!

      • Devilmunkey

        (We already have all your base)

  • Kerberos

    “Can someone could be against marriage equality, and even think that homosexuality is wrong, and yet not “hate” gay people?”

    ## Of course – it’s easy. It does not follow from being against the one, and thinking that the other is wrong (in what sense wrong, is not made clear), that one hates those who do it. It is possible to be against Sharia law, and to think that Islam is a mistaken POV, without hating Muslims.

    Being gay is a very personal issue. It does not follow from this, that rejection of a proposed measure – such as gay marriage – is hatred of persons who are gay. It is a disagreement with the proposers of such a measure about what serves the good of society. It is not self-evident that gay marriage is g0od for society – there is room for debate on this issue, and debate is what is needed: reasoned discussion, by people who differ on the issues, so that slogans, insults, weak reasoning, ignorance and misunderstanding can be laid aside and a sensible and fair solution be found. Just as with any other issue that causes a lot of controversy. Grown-ups ought to be capable of civil discussion, and of agreeing to disagree. What sort of society do we live in, if we cannot manage that ? Precisely because this issue is very controversial, it needs to be considered with great care, & not be rushed.

    Disagreement with what others want, or would like, or think is desirable, is not hatred of them. It is possible for people to disagree strongly on all sorts of issues, while respecting and liking one another, and learning from one another. Friendship does not imply complete agreement. Do others have to agree with us, in order to qualify as members of the human race ? I hope not.

    I’m all for gay marriage – but not at the expense of the rights of others. I would have much more respect for the case in favour, if attention were paid to the rights & liberties of others in society as well. I want no part of a cause that thinks only of itself – that is not just, or good. If we want our rights to be respected, it is absolutely essential to respect those of others as well: gay, straight, evangelical, Muslim, Catholic, Wicca, atheist, the lot.

    • Anat

      Whose rights are being infringed on by marriage equality? It is not up to gay people to prove their marriages are for the good of society (and how can they do that if we don’t let them marry?). It is up to everyone to realize it is a simple matter of fairness. We don’t demand that Black people prove that giving them rights is for the good of society either.

    • The_L1985

      Gee, I must have forgotten about the horror that spread through 10 states in this country, when gay marriage was legalized. After all, people couldn’t marry the opposite sex anymore, churches were forced to host massive gay orgies, and married couples all had to report to divorce court and be assigned their new same-sex partner! Fred Phelps was finally jailed for his hateful rhetoric! Bibles were being burned! Dogs and cats were marrying each other! Rampant pandemonium! OH THE HUMANITY!!

      Oh wait. None of that has ever happened in any country, state, or province anywhere in the world that has ever legalized gay marriage. Therefore, nobody is losing any rights just because more kinds of couples are being allowed to legally marry.

      We don’t want to ruin anybody’s marriage. Most of us value marriage–that’s why we want our gay brothers and sisters to be able to participate in this sacred act. We just want any 2 consenting adults who aren’t near blood relatives to be able to go to the courthouse and sign a document conferring ALL of the legal benefits of marriage–regardless of what’s going on with their plumbing or whether or not they intend to have children.

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  • Зоки Ћирилица Карађорђевић

    a lot of people that aren’t christian oppose marriage equality……………………………….

    • rx7ward

      And they’re bigots, too!

  • Margaret

    Born and raised Catholic, never beaten or abused, I chose Catholicism for myself, and I honestly do love gay people just the same.

    Of course Catholics will not allow gays to be married in the church, because that is against OUR faith. But I believe that gays should have the right to marry outside the church–church and state are separate, right?

    But that also means that the state cannot force the catholic church to allow gays to marry within it.

    I’m against homosexuality as in I would not choose it for myself, but I’m also against sex before marriage and I have plenty of friends who have had sex. I would not condemn gays to hell, and I would never hate them for being sinners—I am a sinner, too.

    There are Catholics who can think logically through this, don’t group us all together and in turn, I won’t group all gays or atheists or any other groups together either.

    In summary: I DO BELIEVE GAYS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO MARRY. Just not in the Catholic church, as that is a part of our belief system.

    • Olive Markus

      This is an honest question of curiosity, nothing more…

      Has the Catholic hierarchy led its followers to believe that the church will be required to perform same sex marriage should it become legal? Because I see this assumption from Catholics all over the country, and it makes me somewhat angry. It also confuses the hell out of me, because part of the whole freedom from and of religion means that nobody could force the Catholic church to perform same-sex marriages if they choose not to… I’m assuming the fear of this had to come from within somewhere, but I’ve never found it to be based on anything in reality. If the hierarchy is doing this, then they are lying in order to make its followers fight same-sex marriage even more ferociously, and I find that very annoying.

  • Elle Leon

    Being a lesbian is a choice,
    Christian dont hate, they just don’t agree with same sex marriage.
    God created Adam and Eve, NOT ADAM AND STEVE
    WE LOVE YOU, but THAT DOESNT MEAN WE LOVE YOUR ACTIONS

    • paizlea

      Being heterosexual is a choice, too. Why do you get to pick your preference, but gays don’t?
      It doesn’t matter if you feel hate or not, Christian are acting in a hateful way when they try to deny equal rights to gays.
      Are you saying the US should base our laws on the Bible?
      IT’S NOT LOVE IF THERE’S NO ACCEPTANCE. A parent who kicks their gay teen out of the house may claim to love their child, but that kid is still homeless.

    • Conuly

      God definitely didn’t create Adam and Alice and Barbara and Caroline and Danielle and Eva and Frances, but polygamy is all over the bible, and not actually condemned.

    • fiona64

      If being a lesbian is a choice, I am 100 percent confident that you can explain how you chose *not* to be one. After all, by your same logic, being straight is a choice.

      My gay friends experienced no more choice over their sexual orientation than I did, so I’m very curious about your decision-making process.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    smrnda grew up Jewish and I think she still is. She has no interest in Christ at all, and if her friends were evangelizing at her a lot, that’s another reason for them to be ex-friends.

    I choose not to be friends with racists, sexists, or homophobes too. People can believe what they want, but the consequence of being prejudiced is I don’t want to spend my time with them.

  • Allen

    The Bible says that gay people are sick perverted abominations who should be tortured forever in hell unless they apologize to an unchanged God who also happens to be Jesus who said that gay people should be put to death in the past but now just wants to throw them in hell. Christianity is basically saying that gays should be tortured and burned for being gay by Jesus/God and then Christians claim they don’t hate gays. It’s the biggest load of shit I’ve ever seen and a gay christian is the dumbest thing on the planet. Sure a person can be gay and Christian but who would be stupid enough to damn themselves and worship something that wanted to damn them.

    • The_L1985

      There are Christian denominations that don’t consider being GLBTQ to be in any way a moral issue. Please do not paint an entire religion with such a broad brush.

      After all, the Bible says 100x more about how we should feed the poor and how wealth itself is a sin than it does about anything that could possibly relate to homosexuality–yet we have Christian Republicans.

      • Allen

        i could careless if it said a million other things.One time is all it takes. The fact is the majority of Christians in the world believes gays should burn just as they believe other people whom are of a different religion should as well as atheist too. The book itself think it’s a good idea for people to be tortured just for not sharing the same view. Why should i listen to Christians when Christianity at it’s base is hateful. You can say Christians “love” people until you are blue in the face but if they believe it’s righteous or ok for a gay or an atheist or someone who doesn’t share the Christian belief to burn then that person is a terrible human being…

  • roddma

    I guess most wouldn’t condone polygamy on here. Does that mean you hate the people who practice? I must hate a lot of people because I don’t condone their actions. This argument makes no sense. Why is it now you are accused of hate when you only disagree with actions. That is very a short-sighted. We have to keep in mind marriage is not a right. It is a privilege. Homosexuality like heterosexuality is a sexual behavior, They aren’t races. When you are raised in extreme group, you can only think in extremes.

    • Beutelratti

      “Go ahead and yell until you’re blue in the face that you don’t hate gay
      people, if you are actively working to make them second class citizens
      by denying them equal rights, it doesn’t matter whether or not you hate
      them. Your actions are harmful, incredibly harmful, and to the people at
      the receiving end they feel very, very hateful.”

      Please read that again. It’s not about *disagreeing* with actions. It’s about actively working on making people’s lives worse and degrading them and their inherent worth.

      I also “condone” polygamy if all parties involved have given their consent. Who the heck am I to “condone” or “disagree with” anyone’s consensual sex life?

    • Anat

      Neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality are behaviors. They are both states of the mind. They are about what gender one feels attraction to. There are celibate heterosexual people and celibate homosexual people. Their behaviors might be indistinguishable to an outside observer, but their sexual orientations are different.

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