Something We Can All Agree On

  • Nick R

    Related, because Neil Gaiman is awesome: http://zenpencils.com/comic/50-neil-gaiman-make-good-art/

  • David K. Monroe

    I disagree. What we need is for more people to grow up, and embrace their status as mature human beings. Idolatry of childhood is, well, idolatry. I see no evidence that the disdain for “growing up” that has been expressed by so many in the last 50 years or so has had any real positive effect on society or individuals.

    • MarylandBill

      Matthew 18:3 “And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

      I think there are definitely different ways to become an adult, some good, some not so good. Yes, we must grow to accept, even embrace the responsibilities and sacrifices of adulthood, but we should never become so adult that we loose delight in God’s creation or stop wondering in the Mysteries of God.

      • David K. Monroe

        1 Cor. 13:11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

        My point was not that we should “lose delight in God’s creation or stop wondering in the Mysteries of God.” And if I could be confident that when people these days proudly trumpet their refusal to grow up that they actually are saying that they indent to run hard after God, then I would heartily welcome that. But that’s NOT usually what they mean.

        • http://www.lukeshea.com/ Luke Shea

          @David K. Monroe: We all worship the same unemployed guy who wandered around telling stories, right?

          • David K. Monroe

            This response seems like a complete and utter non-sequitur to me.

            • http://www.lukeshea.com/ Luke Shea

              I just mean that the Adulthood Jesus showed us isn’t particularly Grown Up, in the 1950′s American sense.

              • David K. Monroe

                Who said anything about a “1950′s American sense?” You’re reading WAY too much of your own baggage into my comments, it would seem. People embraced the idea of adulthood and maturity long before the 1950′s. My point is that in the last 40 years or so, people have been generally pooh-poohing the idea of “growing up” and what I see as a result is a lot of people in an arrested state of adolescence, unable to be committed to relationships or anything else other than their own pleasure. I’ve experienced this in my own life and have left it behind, but I can see firsthand the problems it has caused.

                Anyway, I disagree that Jesus somehow wasn’t “grown up.” Jesus was not some slacker. If you have any respect for Jesus at all you will recognize that He took massive responsibility unto Himself even before the cross. If you think I’m arguing simply for a return to some television version of the 1950′s, then you’re really not understanding what I’m trying to say.

                And in conclusion, I’m simply choosing to dissent from this notion that Mark says “we can all agree on,” and I don’t see why a simple disagreement about such a subject to be so controversial and provocative. Being tolerant and forbearing of different opinions is also part of being grown up, one which I hope you would agree is one of its good aspects.

                • http://www.lukeshea.com/ Luke Shea

                  I didn’t mean to start a fight or misread intentions. You mentioned “the disdain for “growing up” that has been expressed by so many in the last 50 years or so.” That’s all I was referring to. I guess I misunderstood what you meant by that remark. My apologies.

                  As for “my own baggage,” I don’t have much of this particular kind. I’m 25, married, and father to a 3 year old child. I’ve been in the Adult Commitment game since about a year before most folks I know would have recommended it.

                  I don’t mean “not particularly grown up” to be synonymous with “slacker.” I’ll admit to being a former pony-tail owner with a job in the arts, and so the image of God as a wandering, beardy storyteller is alluring to me. That’s the great thing about worshiping an infinite God: He *is* a traveling bard, the ultimate Creator, the sculptor who gave us form, the author of all our tales. And you’re *also* right: He’s the ultimate in Responsibility. He made himself responsible for every terrible thing ever done, and paid off that debt for us. That, of course, is very adult, and the perfect role model for all of us to aspire too.

                  But, before that, in the garden, he still cried out for his Father. Abba. Daddy.

                  I didn’t intend and wasn’t sensing any of the controversy or provocation you mentioned. I don’t think we’re really even arguing, to be honest. I think you’re saying “Don’t confuse ‘Childish’ for ‘Childlike,’” and I’m saying “Don’t confuse ‘Childlike’ for ‘Childish.’” Shake?

                  • David K. Monroe

                    I’ll shake, but I didn’t intend to confuse the two. I have two young children and am very acquainted with the necessity and importance of “child-likeness”. But I won’t belabor the point.

                    • http://www.lukeshea.com/ Luke Shea

                      Oh, no! I didn’t say you were confusing the two. Just the opposite. I’m saying that we were each highlighting opposite sides of the same coin. A coin which we then put into the arcade cabinet of Not Confusing the Two. And then we played three rounds and won a bunch of tokens and went to trade them in for overpriced teddy bears at the prize counter.

                      I don’t think I’m doing this very well. I’m trying to agree with you. I really didn’t mean to start a big thing. This entire conversation has been us taking turns explaining how we didn’t mean things we never said. Well, that and an unintelligible arcade game analogy.

          • Ted Seeber

            Being a Rabbi was employment

      • Joseph H. M. Ortiz

        In this connexion, precious to me is 1 Cor 14.20: “Brethren, don’t be becoming children in your minds, but in malice be puerile, yet in your minds be becoming mature, tais de phresin [Lat. sensibus] teleioi ginesthe.”

  • MarylandBill

    This reminds me of a joke amongst musicians (even if we are amateurs and not very good….

    Son: “Mom, I want to be a musician when I grow up.”

    Mother: “You can’t do both.”

  • http://lamentablysane.blogspot.com Beefy Levinson

    There’s nothing insane about wanting to be an author. If you want to be an author because you think it will make you rich, then you might be stark raving mad.

  • http://www.lukeshea.com/ Luke Shea

    “When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” — C. S. Lewis

    • David K. Monroe

      It must have been very different living in Lewis’ time when the problem was too many people acting too grown-up. Surely we’re past that now.


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