“TradCatholic” writes

I’ll tell you right now: If some African witch doctor becomes Pope, I’m leaving the Church.

And that, children, is one of the many reasons Trad Catholics are so often such repellent specimens. Racism, Jew-hatred, thin-skinned, self-pitying, bullying, smug, pharisaic pride: these are traits I have encountered *far* too often in Trad circles. Are all Trads like this? Of course not. I’ve known plenty of people who call themselves “Traditional Catholics” who were good and decent people. But I’ve also encountered an *awful* lot of people like this person, who mistake a particular aesthetic with sanctity and who forget that the fruits of the Spirit still matter. This particular “Trad” knows nothing of the tradition if he does not know that in Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, European nor African. I’ve got news for you, pal: You’ve already left the Church in your heart if the color of our next Pope’s skin means anything to you.

It’s Lent. Try repenting of your racism, “TradCatholic”.

  • http://www.facebook.com/pages/Manalive/121980571501?ref=ts&fref=ts Joey Odendahl

    Great. Now I’ve got the damn Chipmunks in my head singing “oo ee oo ah ah ting tang…”

    • The Next to Last Samurai

      Me too! What is this, Mark, your sneaky way of ensuring we are appropriately sorrowful for Lent, sorrowful because we can’t get rid of that ,$!?@$@!!! song?

  • What?

    Really? You can say “what this person says is wrong.” But pretty much saying that most-all Catholics who identify themselves as traditional are “Racism, Jew-hatred, thin-skinned, self-pitying, bullying, smug, pharisaic pride:” is absolutely unsubstantiated, uncalled for, and in the same vein as the awful things that this individual has said.

    Condemn what this person has said, but to paint a whole group of people as such is absolutely wrong. I do not know what “trad circles” you hang in, but it certainly is not the mainstream one.

    You did say “Are all Trads like this? Of course not. I’ve known plenty of people who call themselves “Traditional Catholics” who were good and decent people.” but then follow it up with “But I’ve also encountered an *awful* lot of people like this person”

    What you said is the same thing as me saying:

    “And Priest so and so was sentenced to prison for having sex with little chidren.”

    And that, children, is one of the many reasons are so often such repellent specimens. : these are traits I have encountered *far* too often in circles. Are all like this? Of course not. I’ve known plenty of people who call themselves “><Catholic Priests” who were good and decent people. But I’ve also encountered an *awful* lot of people like this person, who mistake .

    Please stop taking things that individuals do and seek to impute, shame, and insult other people with them. I have to deal enough of that crap with anti-catholics, I would rather not have to deal with it from you.

    • What?

      Oops, I guess it doesnt like my tags, lets try it again:

      “And Priest so and so was sentenced to prison for having sex with little chidren.”

      And that, children, is one of the many reasons [Catholic Priests] are so often such repellent specimens. [Having sex with children, stealing money, sleeping around]: these are traits I have encountered *far* too often in [Catholic Priest] circles. Are all [Catholic Priests] like this? Of course not. I’ve known plenty of people who call themselves “[Catholic Priests]” who were good and decent people. But I’ve also encountered an *awful* lot of people like this person, who mistake [that having sex with children is not wrong].

      • John H.

        Don’t worry. I’m sure your messed-up comment will likley deleted soon. Or better yet, Mark will join in the discussion and explain how there is no reason on earth to think he is doing exactly the same thing TradCatholic is, and you are overreacting. He would NEVER pick on them. Forget that his first line states, “… Trad Catholics are so often such repellent specimens.” I know, I know, how can we POSSIBLY think he is disparaging an entire group of people by saying so? Besides, he TOTALLY clarified himself later in the post … much later. So it’s all good. No need to apologize or anything. “Here, let me take that spec out of your eye … plank, what plank?”

        • Oregon Catholic

          +10.
          I agree with Mark on a lot of things but he definitely has his Achilles heel topics where he goes off the deep end and attacks others in a very un-Christian manner and seems unable to see his own glaring hypocrisy.

          • Patrick

            You guys are all idiots.

            • Mike Harrison

              What Patrick said. (Thank you, Patrick.)

    • Adolfo

      You must have stopped reading before you got to the part where Mark says, “Are all Trads like this? Of course not. I’ve known plenty of people who call themselves “Traditional Catholics” who were good and decent people.”

      • John H.

        Right, like it would be totally okay for someone to say, “of course, not all blacks, Jews, and hispanics are like this. I’ve known plenty who are decent people.” Sure, that makes everything okay. There’s absolutely no duplicity in how Mark is treating the Trads.

        • Adolfo

          Only he didn’t say anything even remotely like that and you are attempting to compare apples and plastic fruit. Mark has noticed that some of those who are very vocal regarding what they deem “traditional Catholicism” are also full of rage and lash out against minorities, Jews, women who wear pants, what have you. You think he’s painting with too broad a brush, fine. You think he’s relying on anecdotal evidence too strongly, fine. Say that. Stop with the idiotic comparisons.

          • John H.

            I like how you say exactly what I say, exactly what Mark says, and then you say Mark didn’t say it, and then you call me the idiot. Very charitable of you. I sure wish I could be as holy, humble, thoughtful, and perfect as you. I sure wish I wasn’t stuck being a person who thinks it’s a bad idea, and uncharitable to disparage an entire group of people for the vocal idiocies among some in their ranks. Thanks for your insightful, and well thought out reply to my comments. I will think harder about posting anything in the future for fear that some faceless name on the internet will call me an idiot.

            • Adolfo

              I didn’t call you an idiot. I said your comparison was idiotic. I don’t know you well enough to call you anything.

    • enness

      Somebody didn’t read very closely (actually, a number of somebodies).

  • http://moss-place.stblogs.org Pansy Moss

    “I’ll tell you right now: If some African witch doctor becomes Pope, I’m leaving the Church.”

    Ooh, is that a promise?

  • Stu

    Marginal and ridiculous comment from a poster, ostensibly from the commboxes, results in an entire threat that isn’t useful which then results in a rather sick and blasphemous comment.

    The cycle continues.

    • Stu

      *entire THREAD*

  • Marion (Mael Muire)

    The skin color of the next Pope matters to me. A lot!

    Back in ’05, I thought it would be way cool for us to have an African pope. Think what having a man of color occupying the chair of Peter would mean for our evangelization work in the global South, as well as right here in the U.S. The developing world is a huge part of the Church’s future, and it contains millions of black people, brown people, and coffee-colored people. An African Pope would give our brothers and sisters in these parts of the world, such heart that they have truly arrived as Catholics; that they are as much truly a part – a key part – of the Church as any white European, and not just in their own home parish, but world-wide.

    Next, think how hard it would make it for secular materialists within the Church, in academia, and in the MSM to dismiss and criticize everything the Holy Father says and stands for, if our next Pope were a black African. Whoot! They would all be forced to tread v-e-r-y carefully, at least for a while! The very thought makes me jump for joy.

    • Stu

      I think the amount of melanin in someone’s skin is not relevant.

      I’ll be happy with a Pope who loves Jesus and want to proclaim the Truth.

      • Marion (Mael Muire)

        I think the amount of melanin in someone’s skin is not relevant to lots of people. Like you, Stu.

        I think the amount of melanin in someone’s skin is totally way relevant to lots of other people. Lots and lots of them.

        None of my African-American relatives and friends would agree that skin color is “not relevant.”

        (“Oh, yeah. You better believe it’s relevant.” ) they would say.

        But that’s them. Not me.

        And to many of those to whom it is relevant, a melanin-rich Pope would be epic. And to many others, who will abhor him for the simple reason that he’s the Pope, a black Pope would represent a befuddlement that would leave them speechless. At least for a while.

        • Stu

          Agree. It’s clearly relevant to you.

          (BTW, I’m in a mixed marriage. It’s not relevant to my wife or children either. )

          I’ll stick to the Truth. Others can worry about surface issues.

          • ivan_the_mad

            Don’t be a jackass.

            • Stu

              So I should worry about race when it comes to the Holy Spirit picking the next Pope?

              The guy who doesn’t want an African Pope is ostensibly racist while people wanting a Black Pope because it will supposedly create racial goodwill are “okay.”

              Flip sides of the same coin to me.

              I don’t care what color the Pope is. I simply want one who will lead us like the current one has done.

              Don’t be a racialist.

              • ivan_the_mad

                Doubling down, I see.

                • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

                  Huh? Was there anything at all wrong with that post that I’m missing? We should care about his color? We shouldn’t care if he leads? What did I miss there?

                  • ivan_the_mad

                    Plenty of Americans in comboxes of late have been excited about the possibility of Dolan, about the possibility of an American pope. Reflect on that and generalize it. It’s really not that hard to get one of Marion’s points here without flying into a tizzy that melanin doesn’t matter.

                    • Stu

                      I’ll triple it.

                      I don’t care what color the Pope is. I don’t see the amount of melanin in his skin as a factor either in the negative or positive. I don’t care what country he comes from either. I simply want one who will lead us like the current one has done.

                      If you have a problem with that, I can’t help you.

                    • ivan_the_mad

                      I don’t have a problem with that, Stu. But I think you’re imputing some sort of malice to Marion that isn’t there.

                    • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

                      But isn’t that what Stu was saying? All of a sudden, after years of hearing ‘isn’t it time we Catholics put the whole ‘race exists’ issue to bed’, I’m hearing folks say how wonderful and awesome it would be for an African to be Pope. Now, if you just think it would be wonderful for an African to be Pope because it would be awesome for a Pope to be from Africa, where churches are overflowing with people, that’s fair. And why wouldn’t Africans want an African pope any less than Europeans or Americans? Nothing wrong there.

                      But if it becomes about the skin color, then it is a bid odd. Perhaps not saying it has anything to do with skin color as much as the culture or something similar. After all, the fair question was asked: are people who voted for President Obama because of his skin color any better than those who voted against him for the same reason? It all seems so ‘yes, we do judge by skin color.’ Something strange to my ears having grown up in the wake of the 1960s.

                    • ivan_the_mad

                      I’m responding to Stu’s tone with Marion, not the substance of what he’s saying.

                    • Rosemarie

                      +J.M.J+

                      I’m one who said in the past that I think a non-white pope would be great. Of course, it’s ultimately up to God and I’ll accept His choice regardless. I took Marion’s post as saying the same thing.

                    • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

                      And yet Rosemarie, what is so great about a non-white Pope? What is great about a white Pope? Why does it all of a sudden matter? A Pope from Africa, because of all the wonderful things going on in Africa? OK. But why bring skin color into it at all?

                    • Rosemarie

                      +J.M.J+

                      Like I’ve said before, a non-white pope would reflect the fact that we are a universal Church, not just a white European one. I know we’ve had African popes already but most people probably don’t know that. This would underscore the universality of Catholicism. And yes, also because of the wonderful things going on in Africa, or India, etc (though I don’t know whether there are any East Indian cardinals). Again, though, it’s up to God. The next pope will be infallible regardless of his skin color.

                    • Stu

                      And Ivan, I was responding to this statement,
                      “The skin color of the next Pope matters to me. A lot!”

                      That’s not my focus nor do I think it should be anyone’s. My tone was blunt and straightforward. Usually is.

                      As a father to mixed-race children (and I deplore that term), I have taken great effort to teach them that color of skin does not matter. It’s character that counts. And just as dangerous as racism, is racialism. If I’m going to condemn one line of thought for seeing skin color as a negative, then I am going to condemn another line of thought that asserts skin color is a positive.

                    • ivan_the_mad

                      Yeah, it’s pretty clear she’s not going for either racism or racialism … or do you need me to break out the dictionary for you?

                    • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

                      She doesn’t appear to be, which is why it’s so much better not to bring the skin color up at all. Say ‘I think an African pope would be so wonderful because…’ Don’t mention the skin color at all. Just say African. And leave it go.

                    • Stu

                      Ivan,
                      I’m not the one who stated that “the skin color of the Pope matters to me. A lot!”
                      Do you agree with that sentiment?

                    • Stu

                      And I add…

                      Hoping for a black Pope because he will appeal to the other blacks and those with increased amounts of melanin in their skin comes across as condescending as if the Truth isn’t enough for them to embrace.

                    • ivan_the_mad

                      I’ll leave you to your singular narrow-mindedness in misconstruing and imputing malice, despite her clarification elsewhere in this thread.

                    • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

                      Take a chill pill Ivan. All anyone has said is that if she doesn’t care about skin color, she simply doesn’t need to bring up skin color. If I don’t dislike cheese, I shouldn’t say I dislike cheese and confuse the issue. She’s made it clear that she wasn’t making a racial point. Fine. The only thing that kept this up was you continuing to act as if she could say yes/no and have it mean anything. Just say ‘I hope an African becomes Pope’ leave the racial part, and all is well. That’s all anyone has said. No malice at all.

                    • Stu

                      No malice imputed.
                      Just disagree with her initial statement of “The skin color of the next Pope matters to me. A lot!”
                      I think it is a bad statement and have outlined why. Haven’t said a word about her.

        • http://spiritus-gladius.blogspot.com Puff the Magic Dragon

          To adamantly prefer the election of a Pope who is challenged melatoninally is just as racist as adamantly the election of a Pope who is not melantoninally challenged. One is still basing their [referance of him based on his skin colour, which presumably denotes his race.

          Though, I must agree that the Pope should be a Catholic. One who practices Shamanism (regardless from which continent) would definately be a serious problem, and would make me think something was afoot.

          • http://spiritus-gladius.blogspot.com Puff the Magic Dragon

            I can’t proofread today:
            add “prefer” after the second “adamantly” and “[referance ” should read “preferance”

            Thank you

    • Jamie R

      I’m not certain an African Pope would result in more deferential treatment. Consider, e.g., the mocking of Herman Cain and Clarence Thomas. It will just force the media to adopt a different narrative when they mock him.

      • Mark Shea

        Agreed. An African Pope will just elicit the patronizing racism of the post-Christian elite, which is as lively on the Left as on the Right when people of color step out of line and actually believe the Catholic faith. Do recall that the real struggle here is between heaven and hell, not between various ethnicities. The devil is unscrupulous and not interested in consistency. A black pope hailing from oppressed post-colonial lands will–just like a Polish pope hailing from oppressed Communist territory–be swiftly dismissed and patronized. So I think Stu is right: focus on the essentials and not on ethnicity. If the Holy Spirit sends us a Pope from a developing nation, that will be great. But the main thing is that we pray for a Pope who will teach and live the faith, whatever his ethnicity.

        • ivan_the_mad

          Is Marion saying we ought to focus on ethnicity, or observing that any people would hail one of their own as pope? I’m not sure about everything Marion is saying, but that certainly doesn’t seem to be controversial in the least.

          • Mark Shea

            I assume the latter. And she’s right that it would be a big deal for developing nations to see one of their own as Pope, just as it was a big deal for the Poles and other Iron Curtain countries. So there is that pastoral angle to consider. Here in the West though, I think the healthiest attitude–given, particularly, the American obsession with race–is to focus on orthodoxy while hoping (as I think Marion does) that such a Pope would be a fine pastor who would bring perspectives and blessings from that part of the Church that stands to reinvigorate the West. That’s how I read her anyway.

            • Marion (Mael Muire)

              Thank you, Mark, you are exactly right. I think the part you wrote about perspectives, blessings that will reinvigorate the West is quite true and beautifully put.

              Of course it is undoubtedly true that His Divine Majesty the Holy Spirit will select the next Pope, and whomever He chooses, will be the right man for the job.

              If His Divine Majesty should happen to choose a man of color, I would be glad on that score, because for pastoral reasons, I believe it would be an extraordinarily good choice. But whomever He chose, I would get behind him.

              • Subsistent

                Let us pray that the next pope will indeed be such as one whom the Holy Spirit would select. But let’s also keep in mind Cardinal Ratzinger’s intelligent take (in 1997 on Bavarian television, cited by Brandon Vogt and John L. Allen) on papal elections: “Probably the only assurance he [the Holy Spirit] offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined. There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit would obviously not have picked.”

                • Oregon Catholic

                  I think the Holy Spirit guides the conclave but it’s up to the cardinals to put aside their politics and agendas and listen. Unfortunately, I think they are just as subject to making the election of the pope about politics and personality as so many people commenting here are.

                • enness

                  Is it really “obvious” that “the Holy Spirit would not have picked” them? I mean, the first guy to hold the job denied Christ three times…

                • Subsistent

                  The first pope’s triple denial of Christ was before he began his papacy: only after His resurrection did our Lord actually confer the papacy on Peter (at the lake of Tiberias: “Feed My sheep.”). After that, altho Peter probably made some mistakes, he worked as a dedicated apostle until his martyrdom. By contrast, Pope Alexander VI was debauched and immoral even during his papacy. And at least one Theophylact pope was a super-pervert. (However, not even these bad popes ever denied the faith.)

            • Marthe Lépine

              I like the way Mark has put this: “that part of the Church that stand to reinvigorate the West”. I do not know if it is the case in the US, but here in Canada (at least around my area) we now have a number of parish priests that came from Africa, with their bishops back in Africa telling them that they were sent to the mission field… When I asked my parish priest, who hails from Nigeria, if it was true, he laughed and said “It’s retribution time…”

  • jeremy dobbs

    That’s so Novus Ordo of you to say, Mark. You must be one of them. O Lord, I thank Thee that I am not as the rest of men…

    • rachel

      lol, silly. Of course you are being sarcastic.. :)

  • Kirt Higdon

    I think it makes a lot of difference whether the “trad” stands for traditional or traditionalist. It’s hard for me to imagine a Catholic who considers himself traditional making that sort of statement. Traditionalist – that’s another thing. Yes, they have already left the Church either explicitly or in their hearts, although they will usually say that their splinter of a splinter is the real Catholic Church and it’s the other 1.2 billion of us who have left.

  • Claude

    You seem to be lost. Bada Bing is down the street on your left.

    • Claude

      ^ The above was in response to an offensive comment that has been deleted, not the original post.

  • William

    Mark, I wonder what “Trad Catholic” circles you are around that you so uncharitably describe? And with a “so often”!? I have many close friends who love and attend the Latin Mass in my parish (BTW, I can’t remember the last time I attended the Latin Mass.) and your description is very far off the mark. In fact, they are among the pillars of my parish and do a great work with Catholic home schooling. I guess Seattle is the bastion of hard core “Trad Catholics”, but that’s your experience, not mine. In any case, how about not making broad judgmental, uncharitable generalizations? It really doesn’t do much for the Kingdom.

    • ivan_the_mad

      Get a grip. It’s not a broad generalization when you say “I’ve known some who aren’t like this, but some who are”.

      • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

        It can be. One can say ‘I’m not saying they’re all that way’ and make it very clear that it’s being strongly suggested they’re all that way. That’s why more information would be helpful.

        • enness

          Uh, no, that’s not making anything clear. At worst it’s what one might call mixed signals.

      • William

        Ivan, it’s Mark who says, “Trad Catholics are so often such repellent specimens.”

        • ivan_the_mad

          And some often are. At least, that’s my experience with a group of them at my EF Mass.

          • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

            Perhaps if we want to define a group a certain way, we should then claim to be part of a particular group. That way people can look at the group we belong to and make similar appraisals.

          • William

            Ivan, do you not see the difference between “some” and “so often”?

            • enness

              Do you not see a difference between “so often” and “all”?

  • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

    Who said that? Was it on this site? What in the world would be the reason to say such a repellent thing?

    Now, what exactly is meant by a RadTrad? I’m not versed in all the Catholic Internet parlance. Is that someone who begrudges Vatican II and rejects all the recent Popes? Is it someone who wishes we had a Latin Mass? And is this abhorrent attitude held by most, some, many who belong to this group? I didn’t see an actual link to see where this came from or who said it. More information would help. I realize that the statement has been made that not all ‘trads’ are like that. But still, the post itself definitely puts the emphasis on those who are, with a certain level of ‘those who aren’t being the exception.’ I guess just a link to where the statement came, so we could unpack who said it, why, what they associate themselves with might help.

    • Rosemarie

      +J.M.J+

      >>>Who said that? Was it on this site? What in the world would be the reason to say such a repellent thing?

      Googling the phrase brings up this link as the likely source:

      http://prowesternchristianity.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-pro-western-christian-reading-list.html

      (Scroll to bottom of comments box)

      • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

        It looks like the whole post was about smacking down post-racial ideas. The quote above was referencing a quote on an email, followed by a hearty ‘Amen!’ Others seemed to be saying similar things, but not quite so directly. Altogether, a disturbing site. The link above should have gone to the website as a whole, not just copied that one quote, to help see things better.

        Now, of course, the big question: is this a trend common among ‘trad Catholics’? What is a trad Catholic? That’s where it gets difficult to sort out. I’m sure there are bad cases in whatever a trad catholic is. There are bad cases in any approach. I’m sure not one particular approach to Catholicism doesn’t have it’s bad apples. So knowing more what we’re talking about and what we are or aren’t saying about a more specifically defined group would help.

      • Mark Shea

        Yep.

        • http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/ Erin Manning

          What kind of “TradCatholic” is Mark talking about? The kind who said that BXVI was a “coward” for resigning; the kind who wouldn’t realize that this is supposed to be a joke:

          http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-parody-with-many-apologies.html

          If someone has honestly never met the “Ultra-Trad” sort either in person or online, they should be glad. Me, I’m still reeling from the realization that some of the “Ultra-Trads” out there think that abortion was caused by women’s suffrage or that it’s not at all contrary to Catholic thought to insist that some racial groups are inferior to others–both of which sentiments I’ve seen expressed lately by people who consider themselves rather a bit more orthodox than the Pope.

  • http://suchaprettybubble.blogspot.com Charlotte Dey

    I think the real issue that we ALL need to acknowledge is that the PR the TRADS get is awful. It’s stuff like the comment about a black pope that causes the bad PR, and while Mark may be painting with a broad brush (as I do), the ultimate point is that these kinds of attitudes really do exist out there, and no, it’s not just a handful of weirdos. Someone from within Traditional Catholicism really needs to step up to the plate with an international website or blog to properly explain and defend Traditional Catholicism, since the two largest voices out there trying to do that – Voris and Father Z (just 2 examples) – are failures. I note here that Father Z is a failure not because of the content of HIS blog posts, but because he fails to police his commboxes, giving wackos free reign to spew whatever nonsense they want (and also because Father Z has issues with tolerating divergent viewpoints.) Voris, well, that’s self-explanatory. If Traditional Catholics want “regular” Catholics to understand and stop making observations like Mark has here, then they need to find voices larger than the wackos to represent them. Unless that happens, the wackos get all the attention, pointing to another problem of why do other TRADS tolerate them? It is my opinion that there is a predominant personality type that is attracted to Traditional Catholicism and that such personality type does NOT step up to the plate to confront wackos within their own circles. I mean this at the real-life parish level, not on the internet.

    • ivan_the_mad

      This is a very good response, and in my experience as well very true.

    • Stu

      What is a “regular” Catholic? What personality type is attracted to this particular form of the Catholic Faith? As a self-identified “regular” Catholic, how do you know another Catholic is a part of your tribe? How do you know that someone belongs in the “traditional” Catholic tribe? Are “traditional” Catholics actually “so often repellent specimen?” Do you attend a “traditional” Catholic parish in order or are your observations of this tribe from reading? Do “regular” Catholics feel the need to confront any “wackos” within their own circles? How do they do this? Have you done this? Or are their simply no wackos in your tribe.

      BTW, did you see the Pope’s last public Mass and the message he delivered regarding division in the Church?

    • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

      I tend to agree about the use of the word regular. The idea of us being ‘regular’ Catholics can’t go anywhere good. Somehow we become the standard by which all other pretenders to real Catholicism become measured. Perhaps drop the ‘real’ Catholic. There are others things worth looking at in your observations, but that’s the one that jumped out at me.

    • Oregon Catholic

      The negative personality type I most associate with radtrad is one I would describe as pharisaical. Over-emphasis on the externals and rules while nurturing a judgemental heart and with a big dose of hypocritical double standard thrown in.

      • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

        Out of curiosity, what group do you associate yourself with?

        • Oregon Catholic

          Obviously, not rad trads :)

          • Oregon Catholic

            Seriously, I grew up going to a Catholic grade school that promoted a lot of the ideas I associate with rad trads today and it gave me a very warped view of Catholicism and God that drove me away from the Church for many years and which my priest spiritual advisor is still trying to rescue me from today.

            • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

              Define it though. What is meant by ‘radtrads’, or ‘trads’, or whatever? Traditional Catholicism? Pre-Vatican II Catholicism? People who enjoy the Latin Mass? What? I can’t pinpoint it at all from sitting back. Plus, if we identify ‘them’, we should be willing to identify ‘we’. That’s only fair. After all, could it be we have a blind spot about what we identify with now that others can plainly see? Those are my questions.

            • L. Fleure

              Oregon Catholic, I suggest that you not engage in spiritual dialog on this site. They seem to eat their own here. If you would like to explore healthy Catholic Christian faith witness, deepen your prayer life, and grow in relationship to Christ, check out Ignatianspirituality.com. They’re hosting a wonderful online Lenten retreat. Blessings!

    • Trad Nubian

      After many years as a traditional-minded Catholic, I joined the ranks of the “Traditionalist” Catholics a few years ago. I was drawn to the reverence in worship and the high value on beauty. I also read that Pope Benedict had described the resulting form of the Holy Mass “Novus Ordo” as “banal”. This made an impression on me. I must say though -I was not prepared for encountering such hostility from other Catholics when I became a “Trad.” In fact I was shocked to find I felt like a second class citizen within my diocese. The Trads apparently have been putting up with being treated this way for decades. Pope Benedict has gone a long way to making trad minded Catholic feel welcome in their own Church again. He will be so missed for this and because he is truly a Father to all. But as far as bad PR, I agree…each sub-group can seem to have its own culture and tendency toward certain pitfalls. I must say I have never encountered *any* racism or anti-semitism in the groups I know…but there is a certain rigorism and inflexibility…at times. But then again, perhaps Mark was mixing up the SSPX and they are not the same as those who attend the EF Mass. I do think it can be dangerous to paint a whole group with a broad brush and to try to mitigate by saying you also know some Trads who are not racists, etc…does not quite take away the sting. I suppose being treated as second class Catholics by other Catholics already-makes this kind of insult a little tough to take–especially since so many Trad Catholics (the ones who go to the EF) agree with Mark Shea on a lot of things…it’s like having a friend insult you. But the Trads of the EF tend to stick together and not mix with other Catholics…perhaps that is why we can be marginalized like we are not individual friends, just an unknown scary group…

      • enness

        I don’t consider you weird if you want to attend EF Mass.

        However, if somebody looks down on those who do not prefer to attend it, then we’ve got a problem.

  • Bill Huber

    So if I wrote a racist comment and signed it MarkSheaDude, would you comment that “that is one of the reasons why Mrk Sheas are often such repellent specimens?” Of course you could moderate that comment by stating, “Are all Mark Sheas like that? of course not!” Seriously….

    • Mark Shea

      Um. What?

      • Cinlef

        He;s saying that just because a random anonymous Internet poster claims to be part of a group (in this case Traditional Catholics) that doesn’t actually mean they are in fact part of that group. Which is actually not a bad point

        • enness

          Wouldn’t that be presuming without proof that the individual is lying?

  • http://Www.HundredsOfCustomers.com Justin West

    “who mistake a particular aesthetic with sanctity”

    Man, that hits the nail on the head! We used to live in a similar community and it got to the point where the priest himself was driving people away, telling families to split up and come separately to mass so that their children would be left home, unable to dissrupt the mass with occasional kid noises. It goes deeper than that, but it always seemed that they made an idol out of” the beauty of the mass” that completely disrupted the ability to actually have mass.

    • Oregon Catholic

      I would have to witness the situation to know if I would agree with you about the response of the priest. I’ve been at Mass in a few parishes where it seemed more like a day care than the Mass. Some parents are woefully blind to how annoying and distracting their ‘little darlings’ are and how not at all cute and inappropriate their running around and talking and crying is during Mass. I imagine anyone who eats in restaurants and flies on planes with any frequency has encountered the same kind of narcissistic parents and wanted to smack them.

      • http://www.theleenmachine.blogspot.com KML

        And that is exactly why Jesus said, “Leave your noisy kids at home and by all means don’t bring them around me.”

  • joe DeCarlo

    I’m a trad Catholic and I would have no problem with a black pope. I don’t care what color he was, as long as he was a conservative. I’ve had enough of the Vatican II adherents.

    • Mark Shea

      You’ve had enough of people faithful to a Council of Holy Church? Like JPII and Benedict XVI? Well, at least you aren’t a racist. But you still want to read most of the rest of us out of the Church.

  • Old man

    Last thing I heard, Vatican II was part of he Church.

  • R. Howell

    Pro tip for bloggers: obnoxious comments from anonymous trolls do not reveal anything about the qualities of any group of people except anonymous trolls.

    • Mark Shea

      Obnoxious comments from self-identified “TradCatholics” that line up with lots and lots of other obnoxious comments from self-identified TradCatholics tend to confirm a pattern present in Trad Catholic culture. Instead of living in denial about that, Trad Catholics who want to defend Traditionalism should confront the nuts in their own ranks and stop pretending that there is no problem.

      • Stu

        Mark,

        Where do you go to Mass? Is an EF parish or perhaps your viewpoint is based upon the Internet.

        Just because I sometimes post on the National Catholic Reporter and experience some crazy people there, it does not “confirm a pattern present” in the Novus Ordo Catholic culture. Rather than marginalize and entire group, why not simply identify the misguided thoughts and deal with them?

        Since we have brought up “pastoral concerns,” which approach do you think is more effective?

        • Mark Shea

          I go to a Dominican parish that celebrates both the Paul VI rite and the Dominican rite. (The Dominicans like to refer to the “Traditional Latin Mass (aka Tridentine) as the “New Mass”.) My experience has been both on the Internet and in the flesh. Sorry, but the Trads have the reputation they do for a reason and its not because we filthy neo-Catholics (as many Trads habitually call me) are just making stuff up. As I say, not all who prefer the Latin mass and that form of piety act like embittered Pharisees. But an awful lot do. I have watched them bully, physically threaten, shout down, disrupt Masses, and spread false gossip about fine priests, all while bathed in self-pity. And on the web, it’s worse. Till good Trads spend more energy opposing this than they spend feeling butthurt every time somebody points out that Traddery is a home for this stuff, expect people to continue to notice that Traddery is a home for this stuff.

          • Stu

            Butthurt?
            Not familiar with that. Maybe you can explain that one a different time.

            I guess we have a different approach. I attempt to judge individuals and avoid making sweeping generalizations. When you do the latter, it usually only causes more collateral damage and only makes the situation worse. It’s a cycle. And it only takes one person to break it. Maybe you can be that man.

            I can’t control what others do. Nor can you. We can only control ourselves. I don’t feel the need to scour the Internet for every bad thought expressed by some so-called “traditional Catholic” just like I don’t make it a point to stop every rude and ignorant person in public. But I do take the time to point out to those in my circles if I think their approach to something isn’t charitable and/or ineffective (those two usually go hand-in-hand). But I certainly wouldn’t condemn everyone around them.

            As to my parish, which is exclusively EF, I have never encountered people like you mention. In fact, quite the opposite. Are their “bad eggs?” Sure. But I have found that the percentage of people like that is about the same everywhere. Maybe God uses them to teach us patience.

          • http://www.catholicalcoholic.com Number 9

            i’m new here. what is the difference between a traditional catholic and a neo-Catholic. i considered myself a traditional catholic but now i’m confused because the traditional catholics i associate with here in atlanta aren’t like the guy that TradCatholic you quoted. so what the heck am i?

            • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

              I’ve asked the question several times. I have no clue what is meant by ‘radtrad’ or ‘trad Catholic’ or other such terms.

              • http://Www.catholicalcoholic.com Number 9

                Sigh. Radtrad that sounds funny! I’m a cradle Catholic. Traditional i thought just meant we accept the teachings. There’s also reverts and converts, Kennedy Catholics and progressive Catholics. Goodness. No matter what we are, humility is key. La la la deep thoughts for someone like me. Time to turn the DVR onto Criminal Minds reruns. Ciao.

                • http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/ Dave G.

                  That wasn’t me using them. I was asking. Those are terms used and given what is sometimes applied to folks, I’d like clarification.

              • Rosemarie

                +J.M.J+

                I know the definition has been given in past, but maybe those combox entries disappeared in the move. Also, we have a lot of new readers so here goes:

                IIRC, the term “radtrad” was coined by Sandra Miesel. It is short for “radical traditionalist.” It refers to *extremist* traditionalists, the kind that reject Vatican II, consider the Ordinary Form of the Mass invalid, and may hold other unsavory beliefs like anti-Semitism. The sedevacantists would be radtrads but not all radtrads are sedevacantists.

                “Radtrad” does *not* refer to all traditionalists – only the ones who take things to an extreme. Many traditionalists simply prefer the EF, Gregorian Chant and older devotions but don’t reject the Second Vatican Council, consider the OF valid, recognize the validity and authority of the Holy Father, are not anti-Semites, etc. They are not radtrads.

            • Stu

              Just focus on being Catholic. No need to modify it. And if someone attempts to modify you, ignore it, especially if they are trying to insult it. It’s silly to take offense at something that isn’t true.

      • Trad Nubian

        It is ironic that Pope Benedict is a Trad Catholic:)

        • Mike Harrison

          Yessir, his regular celebration of the Mass of Paul VI is a dead giveaway of that.

        • Mark Shea

          Benedict is a Catholic. Full stop.

  • The Next to Last Samurai

    Wasn’t our last African Pope Genesius, back in the 500′s?

    And now, my final thoughts on this topic: ting, tang, walla walla bing bang…

  • http://rayontremblant.wordpress.com Robert

    *sigh*

    I’m not so troubled by someone saying that they’ll possibly leave the Church over the skin color of the next Pope. What troubles me more is the number of those like him who will stay and continue infecting the Church.

    • Mark Shea

      What better place for sinners than in the Church?

  • William

    And for the next pope….look to the Philippines.

  • http://Www.SaintLouisAcupuncture.com Dr. Eric

    We’ve had three African Popes, Sts. Victor I, Miltiades, and Gelasius I. Whether they were ivory white or ebony black, no one can say for sure. But, we’ve already had African popes, and German popes, and Greek popes, and Italian popes, etc. I’d be happy with another pope we can Canonize someday instead of one like Stephen VI.

    • http://Www.SaintLouisAcupuncture.com Dr. Eric

      I forgot to add that our three African popes could have fallen somewhere in between ebony and ivory on the color scale. My two year old is getting into mischief and I didn’t finish the thought.

  • Marion (Mael Muire)

    Sean, if you’re looking for another quarrel from me, you’re not going to get one today.

    The back-and-forth you and I had some months ago, in which you repeatedly called me every name in the book, and refused to play nice, no matter what I wrote, still dwells in my memory.

    Yes, you made quite an impression. Good luck with that, my friend. And have a nice life.

  • freddy

    I think a Witch-Doctor pope would be way cool, whatever the color of his skin or country of origin! Our pagan brothers and sisters are God’s children, too; and if St. Paul could be the Apostle to the Gentiles, why can’t a pope be a doctor of witches?

    • Marion (Mael Muire)

      Yeah, except an authentic witch-doctor would presumably be an adherent of a faith tradition other than Catholicism, which would render him ineligible for the Petrine Ministry according to Canon Law, which stipulates that candidates for the papacy must be Catholic and male.

      Now a Catholic doctor could become Pope. You know, a dermatologist or a radiologist, or an osteopathic surgeon. So long as he’s Catholic.

      • Amy

        What about a Catholic doctor who had witches as clients? I think that could work as well.

        • Marion (Mael Muire)

          Right, Amy! A Catholic doctor who specialized in treating ailments and injuries most commonly encountered among witches.

          Sort of like sports medicine.

          • Marion (Mael Muire)

            Or, what about a Catholic, African witch-doctor doctor, that is, a physician who specializes in treating the ailments commonly found among witch-doctors?

            That could work, too. I like it!

  • rachel

    Argh, very embarrassing! My husband and I consider ourselves “trads” that is, we almost exclusively go to the Latin Mass, we abstain from meat on all Fridays of the year, we like the old liturgical calendar and devotions, our library has mostly older religious books, and we are leary of some of the liturgical reforms. That being said, we do accept VII (we have a set of the original documents), we accept all the popes, and we accept the Novus Ordo (we went to the mass for Ash Wednesday). We do have our issues with some aspects of the post VII Church but then again, who doesn’t? We are fully committed to living the rest of our lives within Mother Church’s arms. Both my husband and I are very concerned with some of these attitudes exhibited from “traditionalists”. We know people who have some of these attitudes and it is upsetting because all it does is make all “trads” look terrible. I agree that we have a serious PR problem in the Church and I don’t know what is the best way to counter act that. As for as Father Z, I liked his blog but I had to stop looking at it around the time of the election last year. When he talks about church stuff, I’m fine with it but I agree that he does not regulate the comboxes very well. The same can be said for Rorate Caeli who aren’t crazy but some of the combox visitors are. It is very sad and all it does is foster division which is the last thing we need in the Church right now. As for as the skin color of the new pope, I don’t care if he is green with big huge purple spots, as long as he is a good pope, I will be happy. If he’s not, I will be sad and redouble my efforts for prayer. Ok, I mean, of course I will pray regardless but I guess I will feel more fear if we get a bad pope, especially in this time :(.

    • Oregon Catholic

      My opinion of bloggers who attract a certain type of reader, let them have free reign in the combox, and make no attempt to admonish in Christian charity are basically in agreement with the comments and are simply letting the rabble take the hit for what they don’t have the courage to write themselves.

      I also have to wonder about the parish-serving clerics who have the amount of time on their hands that it takes to run a (semi-) daily blog. I know my parish priest doesn’t have a minute to spare because he is out there spending all his time (from 6 am to 8 pm most nights) and energy on his parish and parishioners.

    • Mike Harrison

      Sheesh, careful, Rachel — with posts like that that you’ll be giving Trads a good name.

  • Beccolina

    Well of course we don’t want an African witch doctor as pope. That would be silly. An African Catholic Cardinal for pope makes much more sense.

  • Will

    Maybe an African witch doctor pope would tell us what to say?

    • http://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/ Zippy

      Walla walla bing bang.

      • Stu

        :)
        ______________

      • Marion (Mael Muire)

        Or. . .

        Weem-a-wep a-weem-a-wep a-weem-a-wep . . .

  • “joe”

    i too have met the sort that shea accurately (pace some posters above) describes in his comment. it’s astounding to me how many Catholics don’t seem to know the meaning of the word ‘catholic’.

  • http://www.catholicalcoholic.com Number 9

    ha ha ha ha ha I will repent of my TradCatholic ways!
    I love this line, “I’ve got news for you, pal: You’ve already left the Church in your heart if the color of our next Pope’s skin means anything to you.”

  • Old man

    I do under stand from a friend of a person from Ghana that their services are more “lively”.

  • ivan_the_mad
  • TheEpic95

    Hey, mark. I know that lent tends to put people on edge, but what this “trad” needs is correction, not venom. There’s too much venom going around today. Try orange juice, much tastier.
    Peace.

  • Ed the Roman

    Fortunately, there is no chance of the next Pope being and African witch doctor; he’ll be a Cardinal of Holy Roman Church.

  • Bob cratchit

    “I’ll tell you right now: If some African witch doctor becomes Pope, I’m leaving the Church.”
    -So where ya gonna go?

  • vox borealis

    Can I say that I agree with TradCatholic only inasmuch as i too would be greatly disturbed if literally a witch doctor, no matter where he came from, were elected pope?

  • Ivan K

    “And that, children, is one of the many reasons Trad Catholics are so often such repellent specimens.”

    And that, o great spiritual father, is one of the many reasons those who despise Trad Catholics are so often such repellent specimens. Don’t get me wrong, many people who despise Trad Catholics are just fine. Some of my best friends despise Trad Catholics. It’s just that they are so very often repellent, which is not the same as saying that a majority of them are, even though it sounds an awful lot like that is exactly what I am saying.

  • Ivan K

    Let me be clear: most people who occasionally say that most Trads are repellent are themselves repellent. Let me also do hedge that by saying that most people who occasionally say that Trads are repellent are also decent people. But, while hedging, let me re-emphasize: most people who occasionally say that most Trads are repellent are themselves repellent. I think I’ve been clear, and if you suggest that I claimed that many people who occasionally say that most Trads are repellent are themselves repellent, you are yourself repellent.

    • Claude

      Oh Lord that was funny.

  • http://a-star-of-hope.blogspot.com JoAnna

    Perhaps it’s petty of me, but I was thinking the other day how nice it would be if the new Pope was African. That way, whenever anti-Catholics start spewing their twaddle, we could just look at them and say, “You’re just saying that because you’re racist.” And given that’s the invective they usually hurl at anyone who dares to criticize Obama, how could they deny it?

  • Scott W.

    Trad here who would be ecstatic if a non-European like Cdl. Ranjith were elected. I’m not racist. I have friends of all kinds of races however some of them smell really bad and keep stealing my stuff.

    • Drew Addams

      I’ve yet to meet a traddie racist. But, my own reform of the reform EWTN hang out parish is pretty lilly white.

      • Drew Addams

        And they same can be said of the wealthy suburban parish I grew up in where the Eucharistic Ministers outnumbered the communicants

  • http://www.theleenmachine.blogspot.com KML

    I have to admit that as I’ve thought about the next Pope I’ve often had some of the same thoughts as Marion and others about an African Pope, centering around how satisfying it would be to see the media spin their wheels, the struggle for narrative, and the schadenfreude of observing others wrestle over their erroneous belief about who the Pope should be versus who he is while I can sit back, satisfied and justified, and say, “See? I was right!” But then, I’m making it all about me. How much easier *my* life would be if we had a Pope who was “popular,” how awesome it would be to revel in the buzz, how great it would be to finally be able to look cool and surprise all the non-Catholics with this new, bold, progressive move.

    Besides, that’s not how it works, is it? Not only would there be a huge let-down when everyone discovers that in spite of the color of his skin the Pope is still Catholic (and frankly, the backlash might even be worse), but we need to remember that there are some rather, ah, special mortifications that go with being Catholic in today’s world. And it doesn’t include being cool. We’re really pretty uncool, with our old, white, conservative, nun-bashing, woman-hating Popes. Yeah, having an African Pope would be very interesting, and as has been brought up there are a lot of positives that could come out of it. But let’s not get so carried away by vanity that we forget that regardless of who it is, the man will still be the Pope and those not in the Church will still eventually view him the way that have viewed his predecessors. God forbid that they think he’s cool.

    • Stu

      Amen. We need clarity in thought, not clarity in skin tone.

    • S. Murphy

      Thank you, KML; that nailed it.

  • Drew Addams

    I’ll stick to the Truth. Others can worry about surface issues.

  • http://www.pilgrimage.subcreators.com Lori Pieper

    Going on the assumption that the origin of the original comment (which Trad Catholic, by the way was only quoting) wasn’t the racist Pro-Western Christianity site, but was from somewhere else, it may not have had much to do with race at all. In fact, I think the commenters who joked about the “witch doctor” part rather than the “African part” are probably more on target.

    I think the comment most likely originated in the weird fixation some Traditionalists have about inculturation – they think that any introduction of something from a non-Western culture into the liturgy or into Catholic practice is a sneaky way of getting paganism into the Church. I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve read comments by Trads pointing to John Paul II greeting or singing or praying or swaying his arms with some African or Asian Catholics in native costume, and shrieking SEE! THIS HERETIC POPE TOOK PART IN PAGAN RELIGIOUS RITUALS! No doubt many of them think that the African cardinals are infected with what they regard as religious syncretism, and that if one were elected Pope, it would spread through the whole Church.

    Idiotic, but less reprehensible than actual racism. And yeah, I think absolutely HUGE numbers of traditionalists have their brains warped by this stuff. Wanna make something of it?

  • Drew Addams

    Me thinks Tradcatholic is a plant cuz even the squirrely sedes run around saying Arinze is the only hope as he is the only valid bishop among the cardinals.

  • Drew Addams

    Me thinks Tradcatholic is a plant cuz even the squirrely sedes run around saying Arinze is the only hope as he is the only valid bishop among the cardinals. And, the SSPXers seem to like Ranjith who has hosted Smittberger and Williamson in Columbo.
    As for not learning the neither Jew nor Greek lesson, the prize prolly goes to Burke http://tinyurl.com/neitherjewnorgreek and he looks pretty “white” to me.

  • Drew Addams

    Be not afraid, we will get the pope we deserve.

    Oh, in that case, I will spend the next month on my knees!

  • Drew Addams
  • Kyle Suchy

    Turkson may be black, but he also has some rather conservative views (homosexuality, for one) that would seem to defeat the purpose of appeasing liberal Catholic youths who want a non-white Pope. So it would be a matter of the College deciding whether his skin color will make up for his conservativeness.

    • Rosemarie

      +J.M.J+

      To clarify, I don’t think having an African or other non-white pope would “appease” anyone. I rather hope that it would *instruct* people as to the universal nature of Catholicism. They don’t have to like the pope – and probably won’t like any Successor to St. Peter because he won’t promote the whole progressive agenda.

      As for Cardinal Turkson, I’m a little skittish about how he seems to be promoting himself. Granted, that could just be the news media; maybe he just answered a few innocent-sounding questions about the state of the Church and some overzealous reporter decided to personally “nominate” him to be the next pontiff. I don’t want to condemn a prince of the Church without knowing all the facts.

      So let me make the following general statement: IMHO, any cardinal, regardless of skin color, who really *wants* to be pope should not become pope. That could be a sign of ambition arising from pride, which I believe is why we had some bad popes in Church history. A pope should be a humble man who realizes that he is not fit for the job and so must rely on the Holy Spirit. That is one reason why Cardinal Ratzinger was such a good choice for pope – because he didn’t want it!

      Again, this is *not* personally directed at Cardinal Turkson, since I don’t know for sure whether he is promoting himself or if it’s just media meddling. It’s just a general statement.

  • Marion (Mael Muire)

    Ivan, thank you for speaking up on my behalf earlier in this thread. I appreciate this.

    Some years back, people here generally conducted themselves as Christian ladies and gentlemen, socializing pleasantly and in a civilized manner, as if guests in the living room of another Christian gentleman. For the most part, we still do behave in that way. However, some regulars here have recently taken up the habit of addressing remarks to other commenters in a tone that no Christian gentleman would consider ever using to another gentleman, much less to a lady. It is very unfortunate to see.

    So, thank you once again to those Christian gentlemen who have spoken up on my behalf against those who have adopted an habitually insulting tone in addressing me. Your chivalry will be remembered, and, because I don’t wish to be the cause of further ridings to my aid, lest the necessity of doing so become an ocassion of sin for you (as these bewildering attacks have been for me): Good-bye! And may God bless us and keep us, every one.

    • Rosemarie

      +J.M.J+

      It’s sad to see another “old-timer” like myself leave the blog because of the change of tone. So long, Marion.

    • ivan_the_mad

      I hope that you will reconsider :(

  • Elmwood

    I think the big agenda for this pope will be to evangelize our secular and increasingly anti-christian world. whether the pope has dark pigmentation or light shouldn’t make any difference.

    • Claude

      I know. How about a Pope who turns over some tables and cleans house.

  • Dave Pawlak

    Late to the discussion here, but if anyone wants a very broad picture of RadTraddery, here are some traits as posted in another blog’s comment field. Not every RadTrad holds all the tendencies listed (although there are a few – see below), and most Traditional Catholics do not hold any of them at all.

    1) A summary rejection of anything from Vatican II and after, even (and especially) things like the Divine Mercy devotion and the Luminous Mysteries. This also can extend to anything perceived as “modernist”, such as any modern religious art, or even Gothic-style chasubles. There is an especial disdain for “modernists” and “heretics” who do things like the Ordinary Form in Latin, or the Anglican Use. They are even worse than the folk music-felt banner-female server-clown Mass-dancing crowd, because it’s modernism under a traditional veneer.

    2) A lack of distinction between “big T” Tradition (paradosis and “little t” traditions (customs). The view of either is usually limited to the period between 1850 and 1960.

    3) A equalizing of private apparitions and revelations with the public revelation of the Church, especially Fatima, LaSalette (much of which is disputed), and Maria de Agreda’s Mystical City of God. For example, Gruner’s Fatima group considers the apparitions to be the fulfillment of Revelation 12.

    4) A Puritanical/Pharisaic/Jansenist attitude towards attire (for both sexes), sex, and popular culture.

    5) A small but vocal faction who hold to Fr. Feeney’s definition of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. A larger percentage has a gleeful fascination with the “fewness of the saved” thing.

    6) a bunker mentality, much like the Dwarves in C. S. Lewis’ The Last Battle

    7) Breathtaking obstinacy when contradicted and/or corrected.

    8) Their way or the highway. No room for latitude or flexibility.

    9) Big time antisemitism.

    If one wishes to see all of these traits at their fullest, one should visit the Tradition in action website. And then get out of it as soon as possible…

    • Oregon Catholic

      I was in a combox discussion with one who said that if a man had lived a good Catholic life but decided one Sunday to miss Mass so he could watch a game on TV and died before he could repent and confess he would without a doubt go to hell because of his mortal sin. To me that’s a rad trad pharisaical mindset. The certainty that Jesus would discount an entire life of good because of one unrepented sin because the Church teaches that your fate (the sins unrepented) is sealed and forever undoable at the moment of death and someone with even one mortal sin unrepented will without a doubt go to hell because the Church says so.

      I grew up subjected to that kind of spiritual teaching and lived for years in abject fear of sudden death and unrepented sin sending me to hell. I think most radtrads live in a hell on earth of their own making and want to make sure everyone else does as well.

    • frenchcookingmama

      This is the kind of mindset you and Mark are describing:
      “Commie-homosexual infiltration”
      “The French Revolution is terrifying similar to the Obama regime”
      “Not wearing chapel veils is part of the Satanic plan to desecrate the Mass”
      “The ONLY and PROPER sexual position is the husband above the wife, anything else is DISORDERED or GRAVELY SINFUL because it’s not like a chapel veil”
      “The Novus Ordo was invented by narcissistic Communist-homosexualist neo-pagans. It comes from Satan himself.”

      I’m not making any of this up. It’s real. They’re fringe views, for sure. But enough people believe them.

      Do you think I, a 42 yo cradle Catholic who’s only been to Novus Ordo masses, have any chance of having real, productive dialogue with someone who believes this stuff?

    • “joe”

      excellent analysis from dave.
      i have to say though that i share their attitude about attire. if i want to see someone’s shrink-wrapped arse i don’t want to do it in a church.

      • Dave Pawlak

        I’m all for modesty, mind you. However, some of the Rad Trad crowd believe that women wearing slacks under any circumstances is sinful and immodest. And short sleeves on women, as well, as if the sight of the forearms will drive a man into an insatiable lust.

        • frenchcookingmama

          That hang-up they have about modesty shocked me when I first read about it. Remember, I’m an unenlightened Poor Soul stuck in the Novus Ordo swamp.

          I can’t think of anything more modest than what I usually wear to Mass: well-made dark jeans (NO low rises for this middle aged lady, thank ye), a sweater or LS shirt in a dark color, and Swedish clogs (my substitute for those awful high-heeled booties that women my age seem to love, but kill my feet).

          If any man finds anything “sinful” about those jeans or my shirt, that’s HIS issue.

          I won’t even get into the chapel veil issue, because while I think they’re beautiful, I don’t agree with how their proponents present their argument for it, i. e. not wearing them is Satan’s handiwork.

          • Dave Pawlak

            I’ve come across a few who think that any other head covering besides a chapel veil is unacceptable…again, that blinkered perception of traditions and customs…

  • Dave Pawlak

    I should also note that Abp. Lefebvre would have been ashamed to have come across the offending comment. Whatever his later faults were, he did extensive missionary work in Africa, and even resigned his post as Archbishop of Dakar so that a native Senegalese could take over.

  • SouthCoast

    Everybody. Please. Just go to bed. Sleep it off. In the morning, get up and get back to Lent.Peace!


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