Taylor Marshall, Sane and Happy Traditionalist, to the Urine and Vinegar Wing of Traditionalism

For the love of God, shut up and try being happy for a change.

With people like him, Fr. Z, and Kevin Tierney assuming more prominent roles in the Traditionalist blogosphere, I am hopeful that the loud and bitter crazies will finally go into eclipse. I’m happy to see that they are refusing to allow their comboxes to act as hatcheries for this sort of ugly nonsense.

  • Chris

    Um… a couple of quotes from today’s homily by Pope Francis that should disspell the Trad notion that he’s soft:

    “He who does not pray to the Lord prays to the Devil, he who does not confess to Christ, he is confessing to worldliness to the Devil.”

    “… so we are walking without the Cross. But if we walk without the Cross and build without the Cross and confess in Christ without the Cross, then we are not our Lord’s disciples. We are a worldly people. We may be bishops, priests, cardinals, popes. But we are not disciples of the Lord.”

    • Ismael

      I think that the Traditionalists main beef is that Pope Francis does not seem to support the Tridentine Latim Mass much. They fear that they he will ‘ban’ it again.

      If you look at his doctrinal position he’s very solid and grounded with the previous Popes. Actually he seems even more hard on transgressors than Benedict XVI.

      • Rosemarie

        +J.M.J+

        I think their fears are groundless. Someone posted this link in another comments box:

        http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2013/03/old-rite-mass-in-argentina.html

        If he permitted it in his own diocese, why would he turn around and ban it?

        At the risk of becoming a flame target, I’d like to say something about the reaction of *some* trads (yes, I know it’s not all of them) to his election. Do they realize what they sound like to other Catholics? Here, the Church has just elected a new pope. The See of St. Peter will no longer be vacant! The nearly two millenia-old succession of Vicars of Christ continues! It is truly a day of “great joy,” as the announcement says. But all certain trads out there can say is, “What will he do for US? Or (shudder) against US?”

        Really? *That’s* their first reaction to the election of a new Supreme Pontiff – “What’s in it for US?”? And if he’s not the guy they were hoping for, they can’t even join the rest of us in the celebration because all they can think about is themselves. Look, I know trads have been treated shamefully by bishops and dioceses in the past. That’s bad and I hope that will stop happening and the EO will be more widely celebrated for all who want it. But would it really hurt to be a little less self-absorbed on such a blessed occasion? Anyway, if God is on your side then you will prevail in the end, so what are you worried about?

        Okay, time to get the flame-retardant suit now, I guess. Again, though, this was not directed at *all* traditionalists, just the chicken littles who were certain pieces of the sky were about to start hitting them in the head because of this conclave’s decision. The ones who rejoiced with the rest of the Church, and even the ones expressing guarded optimism, are exempt from the above criticism.

        • Stu

          Well from now on, if I start generalizing with the term “Novus Ordo” Catholics when commenting on the individuals at the National Catholic Reporter will it be okay if I always caveat my remarks with, “I don’t mean *all” Novus Ordo Catholics, just the ones I mean to single out when I generalize?

          Maybe if I just start using the term “bile and sour milk Novus Ordo Catholics” to further delineate that might be helpful in promoting good discussion.

          Or alternatively, I could just reference and respond to thoughts by individuals, not generalize and avoid blogs with extreme commenters that amount to a very miniscule amount of people. Bitter people are…bitter. You aren’t going to change their minds by returning in kind. Unless that isn’t the goal.

          • Rosemarie

            +J.M.J+

            I don’t see what’s wrong with saying “some trads” or “certain trads.” If one is *constantly*, painstakingly qualifying the term to make certain that everyone understands that s/he is not referring to all members of a group, then s/he is *clearly* not referring to all members of the group! Thus members of the group who are not the subject of the criticism need not take offense. Every group has its extremists; as long as one is careful to indicate that a criticism applies only to the extremists in a certain group then what is the problem?

            • Stu

              Then nothing wrong with “some/certain Novus Ordos” in making a point? I think the use of such terms in the “Universal” Church (even is self-applied) to be divisive and harmful because the distinctions clearly get lost.

              • Rosemarie

                +J.M.J+

                Considering the way some traditionalists online tend to lump together progressive dissidents and non-trad Catholics faithful to the Magisterium as “Novus Ordo” Catholics, it would be nice to hear some kind of distinction made between them.

                • Stu

                  I’d prefer we stop creating tribes altogether.

          • Theodore Seeber

            I thought Mark came up with a perfectly serviceable term in those who suffer from Woodstockhome Syndrome.

        • ivan_the_mad

          I think that’s quite an accurate observation, that the negative reactions are in large part out of self-interest. Some traditionalists wonder why Mark uses a word like Pharisee to describe a subset of them (hint: it’s because they are). Glad to see some voices of reason weighing in with gratitude and with an attempt to police the more … zealous ones.

          It makes me grateful again to a priest from years ago who said the EF Mass I attended, but rebuked me after one such Mass for voicing some Pharisaical horse shit in the spirit of what’s been on display recently in blog posts and comboxes. It saved me from a very bad road, I am certain, and whenever things like this remind me of him and his rebuke, I pray for him in gratitude.

      • midwestlady

        I think their main beef is that they think that Catholicism = liturgy and not much else. This is a big problem. And then we have the NCR crowd who think that Catholicism = underpants, and that’s also a big problem. And then we have the average cradle Catholic who thinks that Catholicism = Notre Dame football, and that’s another problem.

        • Stu

          Which group do you fit in?

          • midwestlady

            Bible-thumping convert (since 1985) who’s been waiting for a pope who understands the meaning of the term “evangelism.” We got a live one this time.

            • midwestlady

              “Bible-thumping long-time convert” is a pretty small group. Most people like me leave when they get a load of what really goes on in most parishes. I’m stubborn. And I like the Eucharist.

              • Stu

                Too bad everyone can’t be like you.

                • midwestlady

                  Well, now that’s a pretty typical comment in cradle Catholic world. I’m used to it by now.

                  • Stu

                    I’m sure you are used to it.

                    BTW, I’m also a convert. Thanks for asking.

                    • Rebecca

                      How does Catholicism = underpants?

            • Bella

              “Waiting for a pope who understands the meaning of evangelism” and “We’ve got a live one this time”….
              Yes, because poor ignorant JPII had NO CLUE about evangelization; nor did B16, whom I saw at World Youth Day in Madrid stay out in a horrendous storm to be with the youth (not to mention his many other travels and the ENTHUSIASTIC reception every single time I saw him in person, which was a LOT). And, of course, the author of the three Jesus of Nazareth books knew SO LITTLE about the Bible!
              /end sarcasm

    • midwestlady

      Read it to ‘em, Holy Father Francis.

    • Thibaud

      That first homely was great : centered on Christ and His Cross, very adequate move in this time of Lent.

  • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

    Traditionalists handle their internal affairs. All of this probably would have been solved had Fr. Z just stayed near an internet connection.

    • Dustin

      Technically, he was. But cram a couple hundred thousand people into an area as tiny as Vatican City and you’ll see how unreliable even the best wireless network becomes.

      • Stu

        And I believe he was having hardware challenges as well.

      • The True Will

        Also, his site appeared to be completely down for a while.

        • Stu

          I suspect he got waylaid with hits.

  • Dustin

    I seem to recall that Fr. Z doesn’t self-identify as a traditionalist. After Summorum Pontificum, there were citations and quotes from him in the press, usually describing him as a traditionalist, a label which he’d dispute in a blog post once in a while. He’s incardinated in the diocese of Rome, a regular priest and not a member of something like the FSSP, and he celebrates both forms of the Rite. He writes often of the importance of reverent celebration of the OF and certainly thinks better of the reformed Missal than most of his commentariat. He’s worth listening to, once in a while, when he isn’t being a jerk.

    • Dan

      Great way to wrap up your comment. That, along with at least one factual error, causes me to disregard everything you said.

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

      In the end, it all depends on what you define “traditionalist.” I go to Assumption Grotto in Detroit on Sundays for the EF, and before that various other churches for roughly 10 years now, most of it exclusively on Sundays for the EF. But I spend more time in the Ordinary Form, as I go to daily mass quite often in a rather quaint country church where me and the priest don’t always see eye to eye. Some of the Rorate crowd would view me a squish and not a traditionalist, yet who cares what they think.

      Do you offer strict adherence to the rubrics?
      Do you have a big devotion and promote the Extraordinary Form?
      Do you emphasize traditional devotions and the true reasoning behind them?
      Do you have an ardent devotion to the sacraments?
      Do you hear profanity muttered under the breaths of liberals when you walk by?

      Call yourself whatever you want, in my book, your a traditionalist, and if not an ally, someone I can do business with.

  • Jeremy Dobbs

    I am an unrepentant former SSPX seminarian. I am also appalled by the exclusivity and hostility among some trads. Let me share my observation, painting with a VERY wide brush, that there are besically four kinds of trad (tongue firmly in cheek):
    1) You have the first generation trad, who have been fighting the Good Fight for Tradition since the 1970′s and 80′s. They huddled in little ghettos around Archbishop Lefebvre, independent priests, and assorted communities when they found their Faith attacked by the men they trusted most: their parish priest. To them, the traditions they remember as young boys and girls is part of the paternity revealed to the Apostles on Pentecost. They have suffered IMMENSELY to fight for something they have a right to. Three sad consequences are: they often lack perspective, focusing too much on their pet issues; in their zeal to preserve the liturgy and doctrine of their youth, both of which were savagely attacked for decades, they seem to live like it’s (enter year of choice) in every aspect of their lives. Not only don’t they enjoy, say, disco, but they think it’s somehow evil. OK, so disco is evil, but normal developments of fashion, music, art, etc. are more than good or bad – they are seen as disordered, prone to evil, and inexorably linked with the liturgical and catechetical nonsense they experienced in the Glorious New Springtime following Vatican II.
    2) You have teh second generation Trads: people who came to traditiona in the 1990′s-2007. They likely found Tradition by accident or for aesthetics, though sometimes as a reaction to the nonsense going on. They respect the OT’s (original traddies) and gtrateful for what they went through to preserve the Mass and Catechism, but are amused by their quirks. They’ve been viewed as outsiders, but are likely to attend Novus Ordo from time to time if they can’t get to a Tradional or Eastern Rite Mass. They’ve read Michael Davies. They’ve read Fortiscue. They’ve read Guaranger. They’re more educated than most and will be the first to tell you.
    3) You have the third generation Traddies, who were raised in Traddie circles. They are generally more well-adjusted, but likewise more isolated. They only know the horror stories of Novus Ordo and see it as this big Monster behind the screen, but generally lighten up a bit if they go to one properly and reverently celebrated.
    4) Then you have those of us who convert directly from Protestantism to Traddie. We like to stand in the corner and snicker about the other traddies. We’re generally useless.

    • rachel

      Very good assessment Jeremy. I concur (of course you know that already). I am reminded of St. Paul’s exhortation on charity. One can have all the tradition, devotions, etc of Holy Church and yet, without charity, it is nothing. We are called to be faithful, to hope, and above all, to love. We are also called to humility. That is what our Holy Father Francis spoke of in his homily in the Sistine Chapel (very good homily). Now, let us rejoice that we are not orphaned and that God is looking after us. Is he going to be big on the liturgy? Probably not. However, I don’t think he will do anything with the extraordinary form which I am greatly attached too as well as my husband who has given all of you a fairly good assessment of trads. Both of us are heartsick over the reaction but we remain faithful. Buckle your seatbelts, put your tray in an upright position, its going to be a crazy ride :). God bless Pope Francis!

    • rose1929

      Jeremy, I am the daughter of converts who were the type 1 trads. Yes, they suffered mightily for the sake of the Latin Mass. It divided our family and they were so profoundly saddened with the loss of the TLM after Vat.2. They had only been in the Church for 12 years and had lost many friends and their entire families. We grew up not knowing our cousins at all because my dad had “gone over to the Papists” in my grandmother’s words. They finally moved away to start over. Then came the new mass and they were mortified that what they had “gone over for” was so radically different. My mother wagged her finger at the nuns at the parish school who suddenly appeared in slacks and short hair one day, habits gone for good. We went from group to group, from Melkite to Maronite and never found a home church. It was awful. Now I see on various Patheos blogs people talking about the TLM as if it were a gourmet’s snack. Nice aesthetics, smells, bells. Yawn. Some say they think it’s okay. I see this (I’m in my fifties now) and I think of my parents being buried from a former little protestant church building fitted out with a communion rail and makeshift confessional with a group of very elderly Catholic friends scolding me because I broke my parents’ hearts when I “left” the church to be married in a Novus Ordo Mass to another Novus Ordo Catholic. The new mass destroyed my family. It happened to a lot of us. Children divided from parents, siblings divided from siblings, people falling away. Now I hear people make jokes about this horrible tragedy. I’m not saying that Vatican II was a tragedy, but the abuses that Benedict 16 sought to snuff out were very very real. I saw in 1979 a clown mass. I saw at the bastion of Jesuits, St. Louis University a “dance” mass with near naked women prancing in front of the exposed Eucharist. There were real problems. So yes, there are a few of us oldsters who had to MAKE A CHOICE. I chose to sadden my parents and go to the local parish and raise my kids in a regular suburban parish that was all in all, fairly reverent. But guess what? My kids, who said the rosary every night on their knees and went to confession twice a month, who never ate a piece of meat on a Friday in their whole young lives, and who were taken to Eucharistic Adoration (once it was brought back in their late teens) are atheists now. They say that those dumb feminists were lousy religious ed directors and those lazy, “with it” priests made them distrust everything they heard from us and from the pulpit. Even JPII didn’t impress them. I took them to Rome for long trips, we went on retreats. But–all five, all gone. I did my best, so did my husband. But we didn’t succeed. I pray rosaries all day for them. I have cried as my mother did, as St. Monica did, hoping that they will come back. I wonder every day, should I have held out for the return to Latin in the EF as my parents did. Should I have driven the 30 miles to the nearest Latin mass? Would they be Catholics now if they hadn’t been exposed to the wishy washyness of modern American Catholicism? See? It’s not so simple. Only one of them married in the Church, but they’re gone now. Two others married protestants and occasionally attend protestant churches, but admit they think protestantism is even worse BS than Catholicism is. I hope and pray they’re not eternally lost, but this is what has happened and I know other moms who have gone through this too. Yes, it’s sad. My mom used to say, only a remnant will remain. Lots of “Trads” used to hold this view. No I don’t think they were right. But they were right that disrespect for the Eucharist and the traditions of the Church would lead to millions falling away. And they were right.

      • http://intellectual-wannabe.blogspot.com/ Woodrow

        I prayed for you, your children, and their spouses after reading this. Keep praying! Don’t lose heart! God is “able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand”! (Ephesians 3:20 Douay-Rheims)

      • Richard M

        Hello Rose,

        Your story is heartbreaking. But I have heard similar ones before. Too many in the Church have been deaf to such stories, or dismissive, or simply have no idea that they even exist.

        You can’t second guess yourself too hard on this; it’s a hard world to raise faithful Catholic children in, and has been for a while now, and that would be even true if you had found a TLM community. But I will pray that your children return to the faith, as I am sure you do as well.

      • http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/ Erin Manning

        Rose, I’ll pray for your family too. But respectfully, I think that it’s normal for parents to try to think about what went wrong or how things could have been different, when in reality the mystery of faith is something that happens in the heart of every soul.

        I went to suburban parishes with pantsuit-nuns (when there were any nuns at all) too. Our family got laughed at for traditional values and for the number of us (I’m the second of nine). My parents mourned what had been lost from the pre-VII Mass and catechesis, but there weren’t a lot of options except to chose the least “happy-clappy” Mass we could find. I read “The Wanderer” as a teen and was amazed that there actually were other people like us out there.

        Of the nine children in my family, guess how many are still practicing Catholics? All nine, praise God. Do my parents take credit? Well, probably. :) But in reality, they know, as I do and my siblings all do, that our parents’ prayers and example were only one piece in the puzzle, and that the sheer goodness of God, the undeserved gift of His grace, and the many good examples of Catholic life and witness we have been privileged to encounter in the Church and out in the world have been the keys to our perseverance so far. And I don’t think any of us is so clueless as to think anything but “There, but for the grace of God…” when we hear that some one of our contemporaries has fallen away.

        So in humble gratitude for the gift of faith I’ll lift up your children in my heart to the Lord during Mass this coming Sunday, and pray for peace of soul for you as well.

    • Richard M

      That’s a pretty fair assessment, Jeremy. I’m a second generation traditionalist myself.

      And you’re right: It’s hard to appreciate just what kind of abuse and disdain that those in the 70′s and 80′s who were heartbroken over the loss of the worship and sacraments they knew. It’s a great injustice in Church history, and calls to mind Flannery O’Connor’s comment that we often suffer most from the Church itself. Mark freely admits that he’s not a traditionalist, and has no objection to the TLM…but I think it’s fair to say that it’s hard for him – heck, hard for *me* – to appreciate what those of Michael Davies’ generation went through. Alas, it made some of them quite hardbitten, reluctant to trust. Some it just made, as you say, quirky.

      That said, I suspect that many of the harder edged and intemperate complaints we’ve seen since yesterday are from very young combox warriors.

      I’m certainly concerned about a few things, mainly the Hannukah celebrations, but I’m trying to exercise some charity, waiting to learn more before I pass judgment, going out of my way to find the positives in the Holy Father’s biography and words to date. And, you know: There are some there to be found.

  • midwestlady

    You guys better get a good study Bible and actually read it. Otherwise you’re not going to know what this guy is talking about half the time. ;)

    • Bella

      Yes, because all cradle Catholics are “SO IGNORANT” of the Bible.
      Please….stop….you’re making yourself sound….well, skip that. I know a generation of people brought up on Scott Hahn, but even WITHOUT HIM (and he does at times sound like another convert who thinks he discovered the Bible, but at least he has the graciousness to admit that it was there in the Catholic saints, scholars, theologians, and yes, the people, all along).
      I travel around the world speaking and teaching and I am always gratified that I do not have to explain my Bible quotations or allusions to people. I will agree that there are many average pew sitters who have not read study Bibles, but they hear the Bible constantly, and frankly we get quite tired of converts acting as if they invented Bible study.

  • David J. White

    He’s incardinated in the diocese of Rome

    I believe he’s actually incardinated in the diocese of Velletri-Segni, one of the “suburbicarian” dioceses just outside Rome.

    I would probably be considered a second-generation trad in Jeremy Dobbs’ very perspicatious trad anthropology. I am, frankly, embarrassed and dismayed by the vitriolic reaction of many vocal trads in the blogosphere. They remind me of nothing so much as small children who throw a tantrum when they don’t get everything they want. We were blessed to have Pope Benedict the XVI. But we are not the only constituency in the Church, and ours are not the only problems. We have to trust the Holy Spirit that Pope Benedict was the pope the Church needed for the past eight years, and Pope Frances is the pope she needs now. Pope Benedict planted a number of seeds, which are starting to bear fruit — but the fruit may not fully flower for years, perhaps decades, perhaps not in our lifetime. But we have to trust the Holy Spirit. That’s how Catholicism works. We won’t always get our way in everything, when we want it. That’s an American consumer attitude.

    • Dustin

      I thought the suburbicarian sees were part of the diocese of Rome, like suffragan dioceses. I’ve been thinking that for years. Evidently, I’ve been mistaken for a very long time. But here’s what doesn’t make sense to me: the cardinal-bishops each represent one of the suburbicarian sees, and the college of cardinals is supposed to represent the ancient tradition of the clergy and of Rome electing the Bishop of Rome. How can dioceses not part of the diocese of Rome play any part in the College, then?

      • Dustin

        That’s “clergy of Rome.”

      • The True Will

        Short answer: Tradition. (And if you ask me how this tradition started….)
        Slightly longer answer: because Rome is special. (Like the “Major Archbishoprics” are special.)

      • Paul

        Darrin, because the college never included solely the principal clergy of Rome. Instead, it included the principal clergy of Rome (cardinal priests and cardinal deacons) along with the bishops of Rome’s suffragan dioceses (the cardinal bishops of suburbicarian sees). One ancient model of episcopal election involved both the clergy of the vacant see and the bishops of the surrounding sees, and the sacred college imitates this model.

  • Michael

    I echo TM’s call to chill out; to put it even more bluntly, the election of HH Francis is a great opportunity for _all_ extremist-oriented folks in the Church to take a healthy dose of cool your damn jets. And that comes from someone who would self-identify as more conservative – I’d prefer not to listen to tambourines at Mass or receive communion from a lay minister convinced they have the power to intone a blessing over me a la a priest, but I’m also well aware that the parish that can put on a great Palestrina Mass may very well be full of anti-Semites and quasi-sede vacantists of the type Christ warns us about time and time again in the Gospels. At the same time, lots of tambourinistas are deeply Christ-centered, and there are many good priests who can belt out the prayers at the foot of the altar with full faith and desire for the Holy Spirit’s renewal and protection of the Church. At the end of the day there are bad people on both sides of the spectrum and we’re going to hear from all of them – loudly – in the coming days and weeks.

    Francis didn’t come out with a mozzetta last worn by Pius V, surrounded by billowing clouds of incense swung about by permanent sub-deacons from the Diaconal Order of St. Lawrence (Discalced Collegiate)? Deal with it, “Faithful” Trads. Our new Holy Father preaches against same-sex marriage, abortion, and wannabe-intellectual theological “dialogue”? Deal with it, “Jesus would hate that silk chasuble” lefties. We’re Catholic, end of story, and if that means we need to get on board with a pope who pays his own bill in a hotel and preaches hellfire and brimstone an hour later, then so be it. THOU ART PETER! Let us rejoice in these days of celebration and pray for the Holy Spirit to descend upon our new pope!

  • midwestlady

    Not real impressed til I saw the full text of his first homily. Wow! Now I’m impressed.
    http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2078/full_text_pope_francis_first_homily_as_pontiff.aspx#.UUIsUjdsuSo

    A lot of people are quoting only the parts they like and leaving out the good parts. You owe it to yourself to read the whole thing!

  • deiseach

    Mark, given the grave warnings the Truly True Roman Catholics have been issuing, I decided to check out for myself the kinds of liturgical abuses we will be likely to suffer under the pontificate of the semi-heretical liberal “Pope” Francis and I was shocked, appalled and dismayed.

    For instance, let me link to a sample of the kind of liturgical dancing this Jesuit (and we all know what the Jesuits are like) Argentinian is probably going to introduce on the altar of St. Peter’s for his first official Mass!

    I apologise for stunning and astounding you all with this kind of horrific spectacle, but we need to be warned and we have to be prepared! Thank heavens for the vigilance of the truly true and genuine followers of the One True Church who are the few protesting voices of sanity against this dreadful misstep by the cardinals!

    • Clare Krishan

      “| On the Roman curia, the governing body of the Catholic church: | I see it as a body that gives service, a body that helps me and serves me. Sometimes negative news does come out, but it is often exaggerated and manipulated to spread scandal.[Journalists]* sometimes risk becoming ill from coprophilia and thus fomenting coprophagia: which is a sin that taints all men and women, that is, the tendency to focus on the negative rather than the positive aspects.
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/13/pope-francis-quotations-by-him-about-him
      insert “blog commentators” for * and we’re all called to examine our consciences, no?
      Let’s keep our perspective faced on God (not our own image in the mirror) and we’re sure to be headed in the right direction, yes?

    • The True Will

      “….As we do the transubstantiation tango.”

  • Psy

    Mark, I’m sure all the gossip and complaints about what others are saying and division within the Church is all well and good, but I have heard nothing on the Popes position on what he is going to do about child sex abuse issues.

    • Mark Shea

      Wow. 24 hours and he hasn’t issued a comprehensive plan! Clearly he not only supports torture and murder but child rape as well.

      Here. This is for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xnZ6g14WwY

      • The True Will

        Not only that, but he hasn’t summoned the Third Vatican Council, approved abortion, contraception, female and married priests and gay marriage! Media stunned!

  • Psy

    It may not be an issue that affects your family and friends Mark, but it is for many of us.

    • Mark Shea

      It is an issue that affects the whole Church. But come on. It’s been one day.

      • Psy

        I’ve been searching google news and there is plenty on his position gay marriage-adoption, which is irrelevant here in Washington State but I was hoping you would know something of anything he had done or said in the past that would enlighten us. Having taken many abused children into my home and rasied them as my own this is an important issue to me.

        • Mark Shea

          It all depends on what the history of his archdiocese is with abuse. If the problem was dealt with as it should have been, there there may not be a paper trail of commentary in the press addressing problems and reforms, because miscreants were booted and handed over to the law as they should have been. Conversely, it’s possible it’s a problem his archdiocese has not confronted or has covered up (in which case there is trouble ahead when it all comes out). Or perhaps there simply isn’t anything in English. One of the problems for American media is that almost everything about him needs to translated. He was off the radar for Americans since almost his entire paper trail is in Spanish. Another reason to be patient. We’ll have a sense soon enough of his views.

          • Psy

            Mark I did find a briefWikipedia reference where Cardinal Bergoglio once denounced “cultural tolerance of child abuse.” But I get the impression he will be more concerned with dictating to other countries who they should allow get married as opposed to protecting children.

            • Mark Shea

              Why, apart from prejudice and the fact that American media obsess over sex and so hyperfocus on a couple of comments again and again, do you think this? Do you think you could wait 48 hours before performing the autopsy on his pontificate? Your haste to condemn does not become you.

              • Bella

                Thank you Mark. In addition, the Church has ALREADY done a great deal, mostly in procedures in place that make it nigh unto impossible to happen again in most places – sheesh, in New Haven, CT you cannot have an adult meeting at one end of the room while a scout troop is meeting at the other unless every single adult has undergone “abuse training” and been accredited! I had a ticket to hear the Pope at Dunwoodie and had to undergo the training because young people would be there! People who volunteered at the local Catholic Church after the Sandy Hook tragedy were turned away because they had not been vetted! I could go on and on, but if only the MAJORITY of child abusers (that is, in public schools and the like, who abuse at MUCH HIGHER rates than priests) would follow the Church’s lead! Last but not least, since over 80% of the cases were not child abuse (pre-pubescent children) but homosexual predatory acts committed on post-pubescent teenagers, cleaning up the seminaries is a HUGE step in the right direvtion.

  • Elmwood

    I’m guessing that he’s more of a no-nonsense kind of guy rather than someone who has well-developed opinions on how the liturgy may be celebrated like Benedict XVI or Fr. Zuhlsdorf. His first mass celebrated in the Sistine Chapel was celebrated versus populum in front of the main altar.

    Maybe he wants to focus on the gospel of Christ and simplicity rather than the traditional liturgy as a way to evangelize the world.

    • Stu

      Why must there be a dichotomy?

      Saint Jean Vianney lived a very meager existence yet spared not expense for the Mass given it is our worship of God. I greatly respect that Pope Francis is a man who has embraced simplicity and I think that is good thing for this day and age. How much more that message would be amplified if he picks up where Pope Benedict left off in returning reverence, transcendence and mystery to our worship.

      • Peggy R

        Amen.

        For the filter.

        Yes, you made a good point. I pray he comes to see that the office of the Vicar of Christ has some trappings that he must accede to for the dignity of the office and worship by the Vicar of Christ.

      • Elmwood

        I just don’t expect Pope Francis’s 1st agenda is to “fix” the Ordinary Form of the liturgy. I also don’t think the majority of cardinals who elected our Holy Father thought the problems facing the church today are exclusively liturgical. They think there are much bigger fish to fry out there at this point. It’s hard to imagine this humble and holy Jesuit from Buenas Aries who took the bus to the slums to serve the poor is mostly concerned about communion in the hand and banal music in the liturgy.

        Hopfully I’m wrong and he will build on the vision of Benedict XVI and promulgate a reform of the reform. But if he doesn’t, it’s probably because it’s not as important right now as it is to spread the faith through solid catechesis and evangelization.

        • Stu

          What you see as an “either/or,” I see a necessary 1-2 punch.

  • Obpoet

    Just a thought. Perhaps not everyone who claims to be Catholic in a combox is actually Catholic.

    • Andy, Bad Person

      Nope. Everything you read on the internet is true. Check Wikipedia.

      • The True Will

        Wikipedia is controlled by the Bilderbergers and the Trilateral Commission. Everyone knows that. Besides, I read it somewhere on the Internet, so it must be true.

  • Joannie

    I think that when a new Pope is elected he will always be compared to the previous Pope. I was somewhat surprised by the things the new Pope did not do (even John Paul I and II did this) But as far as the word Trad goes there is no such thing in my opinion. I think the proper term is Orthodox Catholicism, as the Economist pointed out not to long ago.The real word for people who are somewhat “extreme” in their remarks are known as “Integral Catholics” or “Integralists’ The last Pope of the 20th century Benedict XV had to combat these people who took Pius X on Modernism to an extreme way.

  • Albertus M

    I think the SSPX slit their own throats when they rebuffed Pope Benedict, who in some ways was a pope tailor-made to their specs. I think Benedict went out of his way to reach out to them, but the SSPX’s own pride kept them from reconciling. I doubt the SSPX will have that chance again. This could explain some of the bitterness the extreme wing of the Trads are showing now — they had the crazy idea that Benedict’s liturgical style was perfectly normal, not realizing that he was actually pretty much in their camp already. Any successor is bound to disappoint by contrast.

  • http://womenreligiousorders.blogspot.com/ pennyyak – Penny

    Well, I laughed and laughed! Fasting on bread and water is always a good thing to do occasionally. I’m thrilled we have a Pope, because we should, because he is the successor to Peter. And my opinion otherwise – I think it is irrelevant. He asked for prayer. That is the thing I’m going to give him. Love that name …


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