Why Would a Catholic from a Jewish Background Feel Unwelcome

…among the sort of Traditionalism promoted by defenders of Rorate Coeli? Dawn Eden, in that hypersensitive way that, you know, Those People have gets all hot and bothered just because one of the main sources RC relies on for dishing dirt on Pope Francis is a Holocaust Denier!

Patient, thoughtful and not-at-all-bigoted-or-crazy representatives of Truly True Traditional Traddery try to explain to her that there is a huge–HUGE–difference between Holocaust Denial and Holocaust Belittlement. RC’s source just belittles and laughs at the millions of dead.  He doesn’t deny they are dead.  But will she listen to this totally reasonable distinction? No. Of course not. You know how Those People are. So sensitive about a little mass murder. Not at all attuned to the truly crucial things, like the silk and lace obsessions of not-at-all-crazy anti-semites in their weird little hothouse of self-absorption.

To prove it , a not-at-all-totally demented reader writes her:

Jews are Christ-haters. This is a fact. Their Talmud teaches Jesus Christ is a “sorcerer”, “bastard” and He is “boiling in his own excrement in hell”. Why does it matter to Eden (if she’s truly sincere in her “conversion” to the Catholic Faith from apostate Judaism) that Marcelo Gonzalez doubts the “historical” version of the holocaust? Why the attempt to demonize a person for merely expressing his opinions? If “historical” info regarding the holocaust is true, then why such intrepid efforts to undermine any investigation, and the people involved in same investigation? TRUTH DOES NOT FEAR AN INVESTIGATION.

Hypocritically, Eden accuses Aly of “ad hominem” attacks, yet, in the story, Eden concurs with a statement by Fr. Geiger referring to members of the Body of Christ – the true Catholic Faithful (traditionalists) – as a “soft white underbelly of the Rad Trad movement”. “Rad Trad”, alone, is a disparaging term used against the Catholic Faithful in an attempt to “discredit” and demonize us; but calling us “soft white underbellies” in the same phrase double the insult. We have to remember the early Church fathers and Saints warned us about the apostate Jews and their deception, but they also taught we should pray for them, too. The traditional Catholic Faith simply adheres to this truth, therefore, in calling us “white underbellies” and “rad trads”, you are calling Jesus Christ and His Apostles the same insults. Christ founded the Church, and His Apostles handed this Faith down to us. We, the “rad trads” simply adhere to this true Faith.

Here are some facts about the “historical” version of the holocaust being fabricated:
A) Is Elie Wiesel A Fraud? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiRKv8Fd3HM

B) The Jews had been trying to cook up the “6 million” deaths story for many years before WWII in order to push their zionist agenda. “SIX MILLION JEWS” written in newspapers between 1915 and 1938 – long before the “Holocaust” occurred (as told in our “history” books and fake media)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Dda-0Q_XUhk
C) EXPOSED by Library of Congress and NYTimes sources! Better look at them now before they mysteriously disappear. We can’t have the truth exposing a lie indoctrinated into children at schools and rammed into the empty minds of countless TV watchers. Read the following:
LoC –> http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/search/pages/results/?state&date1=1836&date2=1922&proxtext=6000000+jews&x=11&y=17&dateFilterType=yearRange&rows=20&searchType=basic
——————————————————————————
NYTimes —>http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch/#/6000000+jews/from19000101to19380101/

D) Bishop Richard Williamson tells the truth about the holocaust (“historical” version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHhdBzPH_zM&feature=related

One person did NOT die in a gas chamber. There is absolutely no evidence of it. The “6 million” stat is a LIE meant to get the state of Israel created (which is what happened in 1947/48) and fuel Zionism; to manipulate American thinking and foreign policy; and extort Germany for countless sums of money. The most Jews who died were 300-400 thousand. In fact, more Catholics (Poles) died under Hitler than Jews. Not all of the dead bodies you see in pics are Jews, rather they are Poles, Catholics, intellectuals deemed a “threat” to Hitler, gypsies, handicapped and terminally ill people, etc. The few chambers discovered were used to delouse prisoners’ clothing from lice. They were too small and few in numbers to systematically kill the purported number of Jews. However, there were concentration camps, but nobody died in a gas chamber, rather they died from communicable disease, lice, harsh slave labor conditions, malnutrition, and even bullets to the head, but NOT gas chambers.

I doubt Eden will publish this comment because she’s probably a sayanim. This comment has sources of reason and evidence CONTRARY to what is taught to us in lying “history” books and fake media. I challenge you, Eden, to publish this comment. What do you have to fear – the truth?

Oh, and he’s not alone.  Dawn’s gotten a number of scary crazy comments and emails from the League of Jew-Hating Nutjobs for Truly True Traddery, doing their best to convince a convert who was initially very empathetic to Traditionalism to flee them for normal Catholic faith and never look back.  Fr. Angelo Mary Geiger answers another of these poisonous lunatics.  Dawn, very wisely, decided to forego publishing or replying to these two particular toxic crazies since she is a) a nice person and b) trying to get schoolwork done and has no time for minding a madhouse.

Padre and I, on the other hand, both thought it was important to offer some rejoinder since this kind of vicious and poisonous Jew-hatred is, as the other stuff that *did* get published in Dawn’s comboxes attests, a not-uncommon feature of Urine and Vinegar Traddery and is, in the most exact sense of the word, scandalous.  It brings the faith into disrepute, it causes honest and good people to stumble when they might enter in, it harms innocents like Dawn, and, worst of all, it even tempts new Catholics who think they are embracing “hard truths” but are, in fact, embracing ancient evil to become twice the sons of hell that the Trad anti-semite is.  It is pure filth and every Catholic, but most especially every lover of the EF, should smash it flat.  People have died by the millions because of this crap.

Sane and healthy Traditionalists have far far more to fear from the public scandal created by these people than they have from anybody singing “Anthem” at some suburban OF Mass.

  • http://prodigalnomore.wordpress.com The Ubiquitous

    Sane and healthy Traditionalists have far far more to fear from the public scandal created by these people than they have from anybody singing “Anthem” at some suburban OF Mass.

    So do you. Traditions of the Rite are the duty, honor, privilege and joy of those within a Rite, so far as any of the little ways of life are. That there is a distinction which can be made between mainstream traditionalism and “normal Catholic faith” is also a scandal, though much sublter. (And, obviously, not as ultimately serious.)

    • http://www.loxpopuli.blogspot.com Tiffany

      Thank you for phrasing it this way — as frightful and repugnant as the anti-Semitic claims are (never heard one syllable of such sad filth in my Latin mass attendance circles, for what it’s worth), I’ve been perplexed at the eager scorn and detraction that ‘traditional’ Catholics are offered, just for existing.

      • Mark Shea

        As long as your response is self-pity instead of opposition to these enemies of Traditionalism, expect them to continue poisoning minds against Traditionalism.

        • Stu

          When they are actually encountered in real life, which is very rare, they are challenged. Anyone who actually attends and regularly frequents an EF parish would know this.

          The Catholic blogosphere is NOT the real world. It is but a VERY small segment of the whole. These people no more represent so-called traditionalist any more than the National Catholic Reporter staff represents so-called Novus Ordo Catholics.

          • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

            On my wedding website, in my bio, there’s a line about me.

            One time he was relevant amongst two percent of the church population, and five percent who actually read blogs.

            Traditionalists are a small subset of the Church, and an even smaller amount are on the internet blogging.

        • alex

          Mark Shea, I don’t understand why you attack Catholics wanting to respect, glorify, & revere the Sacramental presence of our Lord Jesus at His Holy Mass Sacrifice (as our ancestors of our faith did before us). Why don’t you instead expose those who want to use Holy Church for their own selfish political ends (like “Catholic” supporters of women “priests”, liberation theology socialism, pro-War, pro-Abortion, etc.)? Traditionalists aren’t anti-Semitic. (Those you describe are mostly fringe who aren’t even Catholic because they don’t even recognize the last 4 popes.) Traditional Catholics are however frustrated at how post-Vatican 2 attitudes have resulted in a dangerous mentality across the Church/bishops that seeks to abandon our CALL to evangelize to Jews out of fear that it might “offend” some Jews. So they took out all references, petitions & prayers for the Jewish conversion to Christ from most of the Liturgy (except for the Easter Vigil liturgy) out of “PC” concerns. This does get us riled up. We also get riled up at people (GOP & Dems, & evangelicals & even some Catholics) who support wars in the Middle East out of a distorted apocalyptic pro-Israel State mentality. Traditionalist Catholics (like Pat Buchanan, linguist JRR Tolkien [who stubbornly & loudly kept saying Mass in Latin even after it being switched to vernacular], GK Chesterton [against British Imperialism]) are some of the most ANTI-WAR people you’ll ever meet, so I don’t know why you (Mr. Mark Shea) are so against to them?

          • Rosemarie

            +J.M.J+

            >>> Why don’t you instead expose those who want to use Holy Church for their own selfish political ends (like “Catholic” supporters of women “priests”, liberation theology socialism, pro-War, pro-Abortion, etc.)?

            He exposes them as well.

            >>>…GK Chesterton [against British Imperialism]) are some of the most ANTI-WAR people you’ll ever meet, so I don’t know why you (Mr. Mark Shea) are so against to them?

            Mark is against Chesterton? You haven’t read this blog much before, have you?

            • alex

              Ms. Rosemarie, precisely because of his pro-Chestertonian, anti-abortion, & anti-Unjust War stances are some of the reasons why I enjoy reading Mr. Mark Shea’s blog. My point is why he polarizes Traditionalists (who are trying very hard to live out our Catholic Faith faithfully) instead of making allies with them? I believe Mr. Shea actually has quite a lot more in common with Traditionalists (& I don’t mean the fringe crazies) than he thinks if he’d just open his mind to them a little bit more. I used to also be hostile about Traditionalist causes until I actually did my own research & read their books & stuff. Now, you can call me one if you wish.

              • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

                Alex re: “So they took out all references, petitions & prayers for the Jewish conversion to Christ from most of the Liturgy”
                Absurd. The full plenitude of the greater portion of a Catholic Bible, the Hebrew scriptures, is totally absent from EF rites. That means “references, petitions & prayers for the Jewish conversion to” their coming Messiah … [crickets] were never “there” to take out. This is crucial to the arguments re: suspected anti-semitic predispositions among RadTrads, their hate attracts them to the EF because it permits them to lend credence to dismissing our Jewish patrimony by NOT PRAYING ANY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT AT MASS.
                The full plenitude of the greater portion of a Catholic Bible, the Hebrew scriptures, have been returned to the evangelical place proper to worship among God’s elect in the Paul VI Mass (the OF rite). In former times only the wealthy were literate, and were able to form their faith outside Mass with richly illustrated bible studies such as the Speculum Humanae Divinis with its visual symbolism of old-covenant typology in grisaille paired-juxtaposition with corresponding new-covenant typology in technicolor, see
                http://idlespeculations-terryprest.blogspot.com/2009/03/speculum-humanae-salvationis.html
                Wealthy benefactors were inspired to donate glazing for churches when it became fashionable to decorate worship spaces with the material during the Norman conquests of Europe (Roman artisanal skills lost, Byzantine frescoes and mosaics predominated for first 1000 yrs as persists in the East to this day) and thus stained glass windows became a Western catechetical tradition for the illiterate faithful to learn of and embrace the fullness of our faith.
                Many RadTrads think usus antiquior means all of Christendom worshipped this way, forever and ever amen. That’s facile, ignorant and deeply damaging to Christ’s true desire: ut unum sint, re-unification of all christians, the bible-only (without liturgy) Christians, and those with usus antiquior liturgies different than the Roman Rite such as the Eastern rites not yet in union. (Maronite, Ukrainian Orthodox, Syro Malankar and Syro Malabar are all uniate with us, NEWSFLASH their usus antiquior isn’t in Latin, NEWSFLASH many recent immigrants to the US worship their Creator in Arabic, Syriac and Glagolithic, elevating the evangelical value of these ancient rites in the eyes of Mother Church equal to the precocious few who may desire to worship their Creator in Latin)

                • Stu

                  The Old Mass does indeed have the OT weaved throughout it in the form of the propers.

                • A C

                  Clare Krishan, “RadTrads think usus antiquior means all of Christendom worshipped this way, forever and ever amen.” Uhm, no, Traditionalists are keenly aware (even more so than people who are only aware of OF mass) of liturgical history. We know that there were more ancient languages besides Latin (one of the languages Pilate & Roman officers would have known in Jesus’s time) that were around to be placed on the Christian public worship- like Greek, Syriac, Aramaic, etc. HENCE why you’ll find many “Trads” at your local Maronite or Greek Catholic Qurbono or Divine Liturgy. We love all ancient forms of Christian worship, BUT what we especially appreciate even more is respect & reverence for those few moments we get to spend with the Sacramental Presence of Jesus at the altar (which is sometimes absent in some OF parishes)… is that too much to ask? If we had more of that respect & less of the altar girls & sentimental music & watering-downs & the EMHC (though I thank them for serving) running around, I bet you we would have an increase of vocations to priesthood & more people taking the faith more seriously. Don’t you want that?

        • alex

          Mark Shea, I don’t understand why you attack Catholics wanting to respect, glorify, & revere the Sacramental presence of our Lord Jesus at His Holy Mass Sacrifice (as our ancestors of our faith did before us). Why don’t you instead expose those who want to use Holy Church for their own selfish political ends (like “Catholic” supporters of women “priests”, liberation theology socialism, pro-War, pro-Abortion, etc.)? Traditionalists aren’t anti-Semitic. (Those you describe are mostly fringe who aren’t even Catholic because they don’t even recognize the last 4 popes.) Traditional Catholics are however frustrated at how post-Vatican 2 attitudes have resulted in a dangerous mentality across the Church/bishops that seeks to abandon our CALL to evangelize to Jews out of fear that it might “offend” some Jews. So they took out all references, petitions & prayers for the Jewish conversion to Christ from most of the Liturgy (except for the Easter Vigil liturgy) out of “PC” concerns. This does get us riled up. We also get riled up at people (GOP & Dems, & evangelicals & even some Catholics) who support wars in the Middle East out of a distorted apocalyptic pro-Israel State mentality. Traditionalist Catholics (like Pat Buchanan, linguist JRR Tolkien [who stubbornly & loudly kept saying Mass in Latin even after it being switched to vernacular], GK Chesterton [against British Imperialism]) are some of the most ANTI-WAR people you’ll ever meet, so I don’t know why you (Mr. Mark Shea) are so against to them? Just ’cause the secular world call someone anti-Semite doesn’t always make him/her so. Would you call Pat Buchanan or GK Chesterton anti-Semites for holding anti-war & anti-progressive stances (as many seculars of their wordly imes did)? It’s somewhat like people who disagree with you but don’t want to form an argument so they use the race card or some other card.

      • Beccolina

        I think many negative reactions come from people who have not met Traditionalist Catholics in person, but only online. When the first impression is something like the excerpt above, or like my first impression, someone telling me what a bad parent I was because I had to take my toddler to the cry room (and that my parenting problems would all be solved if I would go to a Latin mass), Traditonalists come across as critical, holier-than-thou (And thy children and thy horrid extraordinary-ministers-of-communion parents) nuts.
        It’s actually through Mark’s blog that I’ve seen the saner side and the desire to attend a Latin mass (a desire I’ve had since middle school) has returned.

        • Stu

          And we would love to have you.

          And we have a cry room (I like to call it the “Penalty Box”) and as a parent myself, I will congratulate you on using it when necessary.

          But maybe there is something to the notion of the Old Mass being easier for parents with children. After all, shortly after the Motu Proprio we had a diocesan official comment that people who prefer the Old Mass are all afflicted with ADHD. :)
          Amusing nonsense and I am confident that his viewpoint is on the fringe and doesn’t reflect the thoughts of those who prefer the OF.

          But if I may circle back on the issue of kids in Mass. I do think there is something to be said for getting them up in the front pews early (2- 3 years old). Think how bored we would be if all we could see is the people in front of us for an hour or more.

        • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

          At my Latin Mass there is no cry room. It’s kinda amusing when the little kid whines, and his cries echo throughout the Church, and he realizes with a small voice, he can fill an entire church. Then the other baby figures out the same, and they start dueling with their cries. Father views it as people training for the choir. :)

          I’m sure some people get their delicate feelings hurt a little bit by this, but I think most of us don’t care about the kids if they cry during Mass. Their parents shouldn’t need a segregated room. Most the time if the kids really start acting up, they just take them to the back near the doors, still in the Church so they can see what’s going on. I honestly think that’s one of the things we need to take a sledgehammer to in liturgical restoration: abolish all cry rooms. But I’m getting ahead of myself!

          • Jon W

            Amen. I hate cry rooms. If a particular family’s kids are just plain out of control, then people need to get to know the parents and find out what they can do to help. But if the kids are just restless, people need to freaking deal with it. I’d much rather have kids around, even if they are making noise, then sequestered off somewhere so I can have my own personal Burger King mass.

            • Rosemarie

              +J.M.J+

              We used cry rooms in the past when we tried to bring our autistic children to Mass with us. They were helpful, but sometimes the noises our kids made almost cleared out the cry room!

              Nowadays one of the parishes in our diocese has a Mass for people with special needs, but only once a month. We attend regularly because the people there don’t care if our kids make noise. It’s OF and the music isn’t always the greatest, but I’m too grateful to finally attend Mass as a family to complain. We’re considering going back to the parish with the cry room on Sundays when there is no special needs Mass, so that maybe we can actually go as a family *every* Sunday instead of Jim and I attending separate Masses (one or the other bringing our son) while the other stays home with our daughters. Which is the reality most Sundays around here.

            • Stu

              I’d say don’t go in them then.

              I know mothers who would prefer to breastfeed in the cry room so that they still can be a part of Mass. I’m not saying they need to go in their breastfeed (my wife always nursed our children in the pews) but some women are more comfortable in that setting. For other parents, it provide a middle ground where they can better prepare their children for Mass out in the pews. Again, their choice.

              • Beccolina

                So much depends on the individual child. My youngest has never needed to go to the cry room except for the occasional emergency diaper change–I mean the explosive baby poo up the back kind. My son, on the other hand, is sensitive and persistent and has been since birth. He’s out-grown the need for a total environmental change to calm down and redirect, but from birth until about 3, we needed the cry room, or I would have been spend a lot of mass time outside. My son screaming bloody murder doesn’t need to be part of mass. We started doing daily mass both for the spiritual graces (I needed and craved them), and to give the kids “practice” in the mass, as well as a chance to take in the mass in a shorter, more intimate form.

                • Stu

                  I concur completely.

        • Rosemarie

          +J.M.J+

          Some of us have met unpleasant traditionalists in person. Like the ones at Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies when Jim and I were exploring the Eastern Rites. One was a Sede; another pointed to a poster of then-Pope JP2 on the wall and angrily said, “He’s a heretic!” An old lady once told us, “But there’s so much desecration of the Eucharist in the Novus Ordo Masses, wouldn’t it be better to just believe those Masses are invalid?” A few others only attended the local Ukrainian Catholic Church because no SSPX Masses were close-by; we told them about a new Indult Mass nearby and they said they don’t go to those. These were all Roman Rite Traditionalists, and our Eastern Catholic brethren seemed downright embarrassed by their attitude.

          • Stu

            Let’s be thankful that such extreme elements are only limited to the so-called traditional ranks.

            • Rosemarie

              +J.M.J+

              Can’t say I’ve ever met a Catholic who attends the OF calling the pope a heretic or saying he wasn’t a true pope. I’m not saying no OF Catholic is mean-spirited, just pointing out that some of us have in fact encountered nasty trads offlin,e in real life (and I only gave a few examples, I could give more). We’re not all going by combox experience.

              • Jon W

                I’ve met some traditionalist koooooooks in my time. Frankly, parish shopping of whatever kind (whether traditional or liberal) is at the very least problematic. But I admit I speak as a childless single guy.

              • Stu

                And I have encountered so-called “Novus Ordo” Catholics who deny the Real Presence, we are Obama campaign regalia while serving as EMHCs, eat breakfast during Mass and other such things.

                I guess I need to be calling for the rest of the “Novus Ordo” Catholics to “police their own” and solve this problem because they are giving you a bad name.

                • Rosemarie

                  +J.M.J+

                  Can’t say I’ve ever seen any of those things at an OF Mass. EMHCs wearing campaign regalia? Ykies, *never* saw that. Breakfast at Mass? Maybe indecent clothes but food in church? No way.

                • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

                  n.b. “police their own” that’s the vocation of the Bishop not the lay faithful, subsidiarity applies (we’re Catholic, apostolic and all that, right?) I’d just be happy that the “coherence” of worship is better understood, that incoherence detracts from the unity of beauty, goodness and truth. The rigorous rubric for male celebrants is closed laced shoes for a good reason, yet female acolytes can be permitted to totter around in 5″ heeled strappy sandals (that in most cultures would be equated with the disreputable profession of street walking)? If our priests don’t have the cajones to set a coherent tone, its not up to me to stir up more incoherence with malice aforethought.
                  Added incoherence: hyperdoulia EF celebrations of OF feasts (there is NO Divine Mercy Sunday in the usus antiquior nor will there ever be, since the calendar is set, closed off, with only those feasts celebrated in former times). Ponder that in your hearts those who hanker after the evangelical power of this feast. Its not “old” its “modern” post VII.

                  • Stu

                    Clare,
                    I’m just applying the same standard to so-called “Novus Ordo” Catholics that is being suggested of so-called “Traditional” Catholics.

                    I’ll leave it to you to explain why both groups shouldn’t be approached in the same manner.

                    • Rosemarie

                      +J.M.J+

                      Except that I wasn’t applying any “standard” to Traditionalist Catholics in my 2:17 pm post yesterday (to which this part of the thread replies). Above that, Beccolina had opined, “I think many negative reactions come from people who have not met Traditionalist Catholics in person, but only online.” I responded that I had, in fact met some disagreeable Trads in person. I never said that all Trads are disagreeable, I was just pointing out that some of us have encountered such people offline. I wasn’t applying any general standard, just relating past experience with an admittedly small number of Trads n response to a specific statement. If you take offense at that, well, that seems a bit oversensitive – and as a highly-sensitive person myself I do know oversensitive when I see it.

                    • Stu

                      You weren’t. Others have.
                      So I take it you don’t think I should generalize the statements of others to apply to the “group” you belong to?

                    • Rosemarie

                      +J.M.J+

                      What group do I belong to? I’m not a progressive dissident; I accept the teachings of the Magisterium. I attended EF Masses for a while many years ago when available (alongside the OF), though my family situation eventually made that impossible. I don’t dislike the EF, in fact I want to see it more widely available and hope my son will one day be able to appreciate it. He’s still just learning how to behave at OF Mass, maybe someday he’ll be quiet and attentive enough to go to an EF Mass. I like other stuff like Gregorian Chant, Benediction, traditional devotions, etc. but I don’t shun new stuff just because it’s new. I’m neither a Trad nor a “spirit of VII” type.

                      Anyway, if you can figure out whatever group I belong to, and can come up with a fair generalization of that group, then fire away. :-)

              • Richard M

                “Can’t say I’ve ever met a Catholic who attends the OF calling the pope a heretic or saying he wasn’t a true pope.”

                No, it’s usually progressives accusing the Pope of being a misogynist and a homophobe. And worse. They just use different language; “heretic” is not in the progressive lexicon, but words ending in “-phobe” are.

                • Rosemarie

                  +J.M.J+

                  Some progressive dissidents do accuse him of that, but A) I can’t remember ever hearing that kind of talk right after Mass, as I heard from UV trads after the Divine Liturgy (Heck, some Catholics who consider the Pope misogynist and homophobic don’t even go to Church), and B) not all Catholics who attend the OF are progressive dissidents, even as not all trads are UV trads.

      • wineinthewater

        This is one of those oddities of personal experience. Honestly, I have never entered a Traditionalist circle *without* encountering antisemitism. Not that I’ve encountered it from everyone in the circle – I’ve met plenty of traditionalists, and even what can legitimately be called Rad-Trads who are not anti-semitic – but I’ve never entered a group of traditionalists, either online or in person, without encountering it.

        I’m grateful your experience has been different.

    • http://coalitionforclarity.blogspot.com Robert King

      That there is a distinction which can be made between mainstream traditionalism and “normal Catholic faith” is also a scandal….

      Why?

      Is it a scandal that, within the Western Church, we have the Ambrosian Rite and the Dominican Rite and the Seraphic Rite or any of the other local or religious rites? Is it a scandal that there are multiple ways of celebrating the liturgy?

      I take it rather to the contrary, that the diversity of legitimate rites (like the diversity of religious orders and devotions and so on) recognizes that God’s grace given in the liturgy is greater than any single celebration, or any single mode of celebration. On a more practical level, it also recognizes that different people have different dispositions to receive God’s grace, and therefore are more receptive to different liturgical practices. What leads one into ecstasy may easily lead another into boredom – yet God has given the Church authority to celebrate the sacraments in various ways, to appeal to as many as possible.

  • Kirt Higdon

    Hatred of the Jews is pretty common among the self-styled traditionalists, almost as common as hatred of the Pope. Sometimes the two are combined as with those traditionalists who explained the illegitimacy of Pope Paul VI by claiming that he was of Jewish descent (entirely possible), only to be reduced to apoplexy by average Catholics responding, “So what? Jesus was Jewish.”

    • Longinus

      I’m a “self-styled traditionalist,” and I spend a lot of time with self-styled traditionalists. I haven’t seen any hatred of the Jews or the Pope among them. Comments like this only serve to make matters worse. It’s only common among the fringe traditionalists that serve no more as an accurate example of all traditionalists than a bushel of rotten apples serves as an accurate example of all fruit.

    • Richard M

      Apparently, your familiarity with “self-styled traditionalists” doesn’t extend much past the comboxes at Rorate or Ignis Ardens.

      It’s one thing to be concerned about attitudes within the Church bordering on Dual Covenant theory and another to dive into the fever swamps of Holocaust denial and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And in the actual, in-the-flesh traditional and semi-traditional communities where I attend, I don’t run into the kind of “hatred of the Jews” you speak of as “pretty common.”

      As a traditionalist, I find Marcelo Gonzalez’s statements on the Jews indefensible, and it taints him as a source for Rorate’s reportage on what is happening in the Church in Argentina.

      • Kirt Higdon

        Richard, I know traditionalists personally who have these attitudes and I have read the print publications, magazines, newsletters, newspapers and books, which they gave me and which express these attitudes. This sort of joining of Pope-hatred and Jew-hatred has been around ever since the Second Vatican Council and I was aware of it decades before I knew what a combox was – a term I have only learned in the last few months.

        • Richard M

          Kirt, I’m not doubting your word. I know such people exist, alas. (Yes, I have met a couple in person myself.)

          But you said they were “pretty common,” which to me suggests the charge that a very large number, even a majority, of traditionalists are vicious anti-Semites.

          I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I’m saying that I find it’s not that common in my (not inconsiderable) experience. Such people do exist out there, especially in the SSPX; but I really do believe that the internet magnifies their true proportions.

          Casual anti-Semitism was not uncommon, alas, among many rank-and-file Catholics a few generations back. It’s a much harder posture to adopt today, in 2013, and not just because of the Holocaust. Which is why you find it almost entirely on the SSPX (not all of the SSPX, but a very notable component of it) fringe – which, I believe, is where M. Gonzalez seems to exist.

          • Mark Shea

            Correction: He also exists all over the internet, thanks to the ministrations of Respect Trad Site Rorate Coeli who has both promoted and defended him to the applause a large number of online Traddies. RC is not marginal in online Traddery. It’s mainstream. And therefore so is their “cherished friend” Holocaust Belittler Gonzalez. That’s the little point being made here. Because it’s not like it isn’t the umpteenth time I’ve watched these little psychodrama play out on Trad sites.

            • Richard M

              Yes, and once again, Mark, you keep hammering home this insistence that the internet (or the parts of it you surf) = traditional Catholicism, straight up, no chaser. By your own admission, you’ve hardly been to actual traditionalist (licit) parishes or Masses, yet you feel entitled to make these sweeping judgments. I mean, really now: what if we were to assume that *your* combox is to be taken as representative of mainstream American Catholicism? Yes, you have some good eggs posting here, and Holocaust deniers are mercifully thin on the ground, but…you have been at this long enough, Mark, to know what kinds of extremes the blogosphere (and comboxes) draws out of the woodwork.

              I will grant that Rorate draws more than its share of page views as traditional sites go. Fine. It’s a fraction of what Fr. Z pulls, however. And why assume that everyone who surfs there endorses everything they say or link to?

              You’re a fine apologetic writer, Mark, but as a blogger, you’re often your own worst enemy. And I am sick and tired of myself and those I know being categorized time and again, by you, as a Jew-baiting lace-obsessed conspiracy kook simply because we choose to avail ourselves of the traditional sacraments.

              • Mark Shea

                When did I say any such thing about you or those you know? You do realize, don’t you, that Dawn Eden often frequents the EF?

              • ivan_the_mad

                “you keep hammering home this insistence that the internet (or the parts of it you surf) = traditional Catholicism, straight up, no chaser.”
                Nope. Please provide either a citation or retraction.

      • http://hjg.com.ar/ hernan

        Another González catholic from Argentina here , unrelated.
        Some perspective, from my point of view. As in almost everywhere, it seems, we have here our share of right-wing and left-wing catholics; both have dump people, both have nice people, and both are very small groups, not only numerically (percentage of plain catholics) but also in their representation in the clerical circles. I have had a little contact (somewhat attached in the past) with the right-wing, mostly of the traditionalist filo-lefebvrist and slightly nationalistic-fascist flavor (the other right, the filo-capitalism flavor that you have in USA is far more rare here). These guys had some more relevance some 70 years ago, but they bore little fruit (only an interesting writer, I’d say, father Leonardo Castellani), today they are more on the nuts side. The usual flags (liturgy, dislike of all modern things, including democracy and CV2, some antisemitic tics, etc). Contrary to some catholic countries like Spain which have some periods of catholic politic dominance, here catholicism played a small role in politic, culture and civilization during the last two centuries. Here the standard fight against the anti-clerical left was rather muddled (fortunately perhaps) by “peronism-antiperonism” struggle, catholics did not fell into one side; things turned more complex around 1970, with a few left-catholic entering the “guerrillas” (subversive revolutionaries) and right-wing catholics going crazy against the menace of communism. During 1976-1982 a military dictatorship (with the support of most argentine people) exterminated left-wing guerrillas, concealing the methods (torture, clandestine executions). The first president, Videla, was a devout catholic, and quite a portion of the clergy were sympathetic, apparently. Since 1983 we have democracy, with a (perhaps well deserved) demonization of that military, and, partially of that clergy. Since then, that right wing of the catholicism has lost almost all relevance -but not their bitterness and aggresivity, quite the contrary.
        The argentine conference of bishops, during these last decades, has been in the center, politically. They’ve never seemed specially brilliant or inspiring to me (including my former bishop, our current pope), but with the age I’ve grown more tolerant and even appreciative of “mediocrity” (apparent or real), and less appreciative of my own judgement in catholic matters. Bergoglio, for example, is seen by traditionalists as “liturgically mediocre” (and in this regard I share the sentiment), meaning by this that he does not seem in that war (in either side). At the same time, these bishops seem quite ill disposed towards the right-wing catholics, probably with good reasons. There were no official enthusiasm about Summorum Pontificum, here; and about 20 years ago the communion in the hand were introduced (only one bishop opposed). They have also good relations with other religions, and with jews in particular. Perhaps all this helps to explain the attitude of traditionalist argentine catholics towards bishops in general, and current pope in particular Example: http://wp.me/p11R98-3Oh
        Among the pile of irrelevant but strident blogs, magazines, pamphlets, one small paper (in real paper first, then a web site) gained some popularity: “Panorama católico”, with this Marcelo González as editor, had always seemed to be a shame for the traditionalist party (“a sin”, I said, half jokingly, to a nice rad-trad friend of mine who distributed it, about 15 years ago, when I was nearer to that people). Argentine traditionalist are mostly nuts, but among them there are fine writers and -up to a point- thinkers. This paper-website, and this González is more on the rustic side… I could elaborate, but I’ll only say that I was astonished and, as argentine, ashamed (I could hardly believed it) that Rorate Caeli gave him the microphone to speak as an reliable expert. He’s nothing of the kind.
        BUT, in spite of all this, and in spite of his anti-semitic tendencies, to call him a “Holocaust Denier” seems a hateful label to me. In general, it’s unjust to place such a label if you cannot precisely define it.

        • Richard M

          Hello Hernan,

          Thank you for providing a local perspective. That’s not far off what I suspected – though the SSPX seems to be quite large in Argentina for a faction written off as irrelevant…

          As to “holocaust denial” – it seems a semantic difference, based on what have read, to dispute whether Marcelo Gonzalez is engaging in denial of the Holocaust or diminishing it (i.e., suggesting that the numbers of victims, or the means of their execution, is greatly exaggerated)…at the end of the day, when engaged in as Gonzalez does, it seems to amount to an attempted removal of the event as a great evil for some larger purposes. Which is why I agree with you that it was regrettable that Rorate gave him such a loud microphone to use – and within moments of the Pope’s election, no less.

  • freddy

    Yes, precisely.
    Most traditionalists I know are able to recognize that many of the very traditions to which we hold dear come to us directly from Judaism. The style of churches, for example, with its division between sanctuary and congregation, altar, and tabernacle call to mind the Temple with its altar of sacrifice and holy of holies. The largest part of our Scriptures of course, comes from Judaism and we are blessed indeed to be able to call God’s chosen people our “Elder brothers in faith.”
    I have NEVER understood how this brand of filthy and disgusting anti-Semetism got itself connected with the extreme of the traditionalists. I’ve never run across even a whiff of it in real life, but I wouldn’t tolerate it for one second, nor would anyone else I know. I won’t tolerate it when I run across it on the web, either. If Christ is my brother, His people are my family. Don’t mess with my family!

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

      Part of what frustrates me is these kind of people are outside the Church. Either because they support a canonically irregular group like the SSPX, or because their sins against charity are so extreme one cannot be a part of the body of Christ.

      A lot of the people in Dawn’s thread saying these kind of people are disgusting are traditionalists. We are then told that we need to handle our own business, and that these types are going to cause more scandal than the worst of suburban parishes.

      Well, ya think? So we do our best to silence them, and nobody points out that we are actually doing so. I really should honestly get used to the fact that the internet is not a place where people make these kinds of distinctions, yet it still gets outta my nerves sometimes.

      • Richard M

        “…sins against charity.”

        I’m glad you raised that, Kevin. It *is* a problem for some more extreme traditionalists, unfortunately.

        Some – not all, but some – in the SSPX manifest a lack of charity even against other traditionalists, especially those in “licit” parishes, socities and communities (who apparently are compromised for being willing to deal with “Conciliar Rome.” And even, sometimes, against SSPX leadership in Econe.

        I don’t think it’s true of most traditionalists. But there’s a certain element that struggles with this sin.

      • http://chicagoboyz.net TMLutas

        William F Buckley figured a fine method for addressing your concern about traditionalists not getting credit for policing. He did it within the US political conservative movement but it should work just fine for anti-semitic traddery. You attack them for betraying the tradition of the Catholic Church. By making the attack on them one of being insufficiently faithful to tradition, you deny them trad credentials and you cut their knees out from under them. They’re also not used to such an attack and are unlikely to have prepared defenses for it. And others who are not traditionalists will gain an understanding that the anti-semites they have been concerned about are ‘fake trads’ and thus can be put into a separate barrel so as not to stink up the real trads which they may or may not agree with but will no longer associate with this sort of betrayal of Jesus’ message.

        Good luck.

        • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

          We do that in a sense, but at the same time, the Catholic Church is not a political movement. Buckley did more than attack their ideas. He basically orchestrated them being shunned entirely. We shouldn’t be in the shunning business, even of wayward souls. I’d say especially these kind of wayward souls who need to be reconciled to God for their lack of charity.

          It’s a tough balance, but I think traditionalists are handling it a lot better than we get credit for.

          • Stu

            No credit until you personally rid the Internet any and all fringe elements. All 11 of these guys. Until then, the words of a few will damn you all.

            • Mark Shea

              Who said anything–anything at all–about “ridding the Internet” of such people? I’m simply talking about speaking up against them instead of instantly complaining that anybody who points out that they are tolerated and often encouraged on Trad websites is the Real Problem.

              • Stu

                They aren’t tolerated. That’s thing. They are a minimal presence as well. But you wouldn’t know that. You admittedly don’t associate with EF parishes on a regular basis and have made up your mind on this based solely upon….the Internet. It’s not the Real World.

                I don’t feel compelled every time Mark Shea finds some extreme view in the Catholic blogosphere to run and condemn it especially when such beliefs are routinely overly generalized as applying to whole groups of people.

                To make you feel better, we actually had one of these people show up at our parish about two months ago. She was a Filipino woman (I offer the descriptor to shatter some stereotypes that have been presented here) who began handing out DVDs with all manner of nonsense. I think one was titled, “The heresies of Benedict XVI.” She approached me and some other gents in the social hall and I told her somewhat loudly and directly, “Get the Hell out of here.” Father then approached her (because someone else had notified him), set her straight and then she left. Haven’t seen her since. Does that make you feel better? Does that count for something? Do I need to continue to report in with such instances to give you a warm and fuzzy on this? Do I even need your affirmation?

                Extremist exist. And if you go looking for them on the Internet, you will find them. If that is what you are looking for. Further, your method of addressing those views only serves to do more collateral damage. You are hitting people with “friendly fire.” In fact, many of your actual FANS have given you such feedback repeatedly. I’m not sure your FANS feedback is being heard. Address bad ideas all you want. In fact, I applaud it. I encourage it. I look forward to it. But the tribal warfare only serves to cause more tribal warfare. SSDD in the Catholic blogosphere.

                • Mark Shea

                  Stu:

                  Well done. You did the right thing. But my remarks are not directed at you, nor at any Traditionalist who rebukes this filth. It is directed at the fact that far too these people *are* tolerated and encouraged on line. It’s not my imagination: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwQwu9IMdgOtVnVSVVpyZ2NPYkU/edit?usp=sharing

                  • Stu

                    Mark,
                    I know I did the right thing. And further, the presence of this woman scandalized many present because she is a fringe element. And of these people who were present, I can assure you that many of them aren’t on the Internet, don’t visit Catholic blogs and wouldn’t have any clue on where to go to find such extremist views. So, like me they are really compelled to looking for such stuff to condemn it.

                    You state that too many of these “people *are* tolerated and encouraged on line.” Fine, that is your assertion. Then by what measure can we proclaim victory. Define success for those of us so-called “traditionalists” by which it can be shown that this is a fringe element. I’m looking for objective metrics. Just finding such viewpoints on the Internet, just doesn’t prove anything to me except that you can find almost whatever you are looking for on the Internet.

  • Ye Olde Statistician

    There ought to be a word for those who protest against the teachings and practices of the Church and substitute their own beliefs and practices. Any suggestions on what that word should be?
    Hey, you can’t get any more traditional than the Council of Trent, right?
    “Reasons Why Christ Suffered”
    “Furthermore men of all ranks and conditions were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Gentiles and Jews were the advisers, the authors, the ministers of his passion: Judas betrayed him, Peter denied him, all the rest deserted him. … In this guilt are involved all those who fall frequently into sin; for, as our sins consigned Christ the Lord to the death of the cross, most certainly those who wallow in sin and iniquity crucify to themselves again the Son of God, as far as in them lies, and make a mockery of him. This guilt seems more enormous in us than in the ancient Jews, since according to the testimony of the same Apostle: if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory; while we, on the contrary, professing to know him, yet denying him by our actions, seem in some sort to lay violent hands on him.”
    Catechism of the Council of Trent, XVI cent.

    • Jon W

      Every time too much time on the internet starts me worrying that the modern church really has changed the ancient faith and we’re lying to each other in order to be more PC, along comes a quote like that from Trent. Awesome.

    • contrarian

      I like the fact that we’ve opened the Catechism of the Council of Trent. Let’s keep on reading, shall we?

  • http://www.breviloquia.blogspot.com Andrew Attaway

    Aside from the Holocaust-denying drivel, a good deal of the old-time anti-Judaism is enjoying a resurgence in Traditionalist circles. The writings of Fr. Denis Fahey, an Irish priest who wrote in the interwar years on Catholic social doctrine, which somehow reduces to conspiracy-mongering aimed at the usual suspects, have gained in popularity among trads, including some quite prominent ones. The legacy of Father Coughlin lives, stoked by such things as the pseudoscience of evolutionary psychologist Kevin Macdonald.

    Particularly in French SSPX circles, the old wounds of the Dreyfus affair, the split between the Vichy clergy and the Resistance, et al. are still being felt. For these folks, the rot really sets in long before Vatican II with the condemnation of the antisemitic, royalist and (at least as far as its founder is concerned) atheist Action Francaise by Pope Pius XI.

    The sad fact is that anti-Jewish ideologies are far from unknown among even the most respectable
    Catholic, Orthodox, and even some Protestant traditionalists. I remember being told in all seriousness by a prominent academic trad that the errors (!?!) of Jacques Maritain were due to the evil influence of his Jewish wife Raissa.

    Leon Bloy, the godfather of Jacques and Raissa (and not immune to anti-Jewish stereotypes himself), wrote: “Anti-Semitism, a wholly modern thing, is the most horrible blow yet suffered by Our Lord in His ever continuous Passion, it is the bloodiest and the most unforgivable because He receives it upon His Mother’s face and at the hand of Christians.”

    • Jon W

      The writings of Fr. Denis Fahey, an Irish priest

      Ha! I just knew all this antisemitism was the fault of the dirty micks.

    • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

      “Anti-Semitism, a wholly modern thing,” well no not in the Iberian peninsula its not, where Semites include the Mohammedan Moors who ruled that territory for seven centuries. After the tyranny of relativist Necons of their day. the Arians, lost the plot as — not per my usual prideful IMHO self but — Belloc’s take on Christendom’s chequered history. Recall Hungarian St. Martin became the most popular Catholic of his day for forgiving (and reprieving the death sentence of a reprobate) Priscillianist who had sought to meet out that fate to him for percieved lack of dualist rigor. (Note to dualists: there’s always three ways to look at anything: “He” “thee” and “me” — where “He” always takes precedence with His Mysterious Triune Munificence).
      Sundays’ Gospel?
      “Peace be with you”
      (so important that fragment of scripture opens every Liturgy, we respond, “And with your Spirit”)
      The Purification of Memory we are called to pursue (see JPII’s eponymous book) is a whole lot larger of a task than what transpired since VII, heck since VI or even the Council of Trent. Its ALL of the Christian hermeneutic, as BXVI so wisely taught, in continuity!

  • rachel

    I have been a traditionalist since I came into the Church. However, I am aware of the strain of anti-semitism and anti-Jewish behavior in some trad circles and it is very, very shameful. The fact is that many in traditional circles are not very intellectual. They don’t do their own investigations and they readily believe anything they read that is especially pre-VII or post VII but still “traditional” like that idiot Solange Hertz who makes so many bizzare connections in her “histories” that any average undergraduate could pick them apart. In addition, because of the aversion to anything post-VII, they like to read old, sometimes out of print books written at time in which fascism and anti-semitism was at its height as well as other silly race theories. For instance, I have a book called “When Christ said the First Mass”. It was written in the late 19th-early 20th century. Although there are interesting points made, I cringed when he went into silly race theories that are long debunked. Again, due to the suspicion of anything “modern”, some trads will only read stuff from pre-VII sources or other self-styled trads. Some of these folks believe every nasty conspiracy theory and bizzare “historical” argument that they can get their hands on. Again, they aren’t very intellectual and self-critical. I love the EF mass and traditions, but I love it as a legitimate, current, 21st century rite of the Church. I love the devotions that come with it, etc and they are very current. We can’t look back. We can only look forward with the continuity of our traditions. Anti-semitism, racism, and sexism..all problems that have a history in the Church sadly, must end. We can’t afford to continue it and yet these trads, in their own bubbles, feel that they can continue with these ridiculous ideas and remain viable. They can’t. They must break out of the amber that they have trapped themselves in.

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

      Hello Rachel,

      Over the years a few people asked me about that book, haven’t read it so could never comment. What are some of the crazy paranoid things discussed there? feel free to email me at kmtierney at gmaildotcom.

      • rachel

        What I was struck by was the disparaging remarks about other races, specifically Africans. Its been a while since I read the book (How Christ said the first Mass) but that is what stands out to me. Honestly, due to that, I put it down half way through. As for as Solange Hertz, ouch. I read one of her books and it was enough. She made bizzare connections but again, its been over a decade since I read it. I used to read some more radical traditionalist books because they were recommended to me and that was when I started to shy away from it because of the constant conspiracy theories (its all the fault of masons, communists, and jews). I have a Bachelor’s in history and I’m getting my master’s so I have been taught to look for evidence, arguments, etc. These books have no footnotes, hardly any direct quotations from primary sources, etc. They are not well researched and are terrible scholarship.

        • Rosemarie

          +J.M.J+

          I started reading that book over a decade ago and agree with Rachel. Never did finish it, partly because of the racial stuff in there. If I have time (a bid IF) I’ll try to dig up my copy and take a look at it again.

          • Rosemarie

            +J.M.J+

            That would be a “big” if, not a bid if. (Wow, I’ve been making lots of typos lately. :-)

    • Richard M

      “Again, due to the suspicion of anything “modern”, some trads will only read stuff from pre-VII sources or other self-styled trads.”

      By itself, this isn’t a discreditable idea, you know.

      For whatever reasons, there’s a great deal of Catholic catechetical and apologetic literature published from the 60′s onwards that’s simply not reliable (or actively toxic). You can’t make any assumptions, unfortunately; you have to be very discriminating. Imprimaturs aren’t used much any more, and even when they are, sometimes, the results are not always edifying.

      This of course is no guarantee that you won’t run into crank theories and speculations in the preconciliar days (like that of Fr. Fahey). So yes, there is a risk there for unwary traditionalists; even with preconciliar literature, some discernment is called for.

      Traditionalists often go to live in bubbles because, in part, many in the Church leadership have forced them to go there. That’s not self-pity; that’s the simple reality. They want to go where they can safely bring up their children, and build their family’s faith life. But there’s certainly risks that attend the ghetto model, if you will. I also think that, as tradition makes a comeback into the mainstream church, and there are healthier communities being created in diocesan life, often by Ecceslia Dei societies, these dangers are starting to recede, slowly but surely. As Pope Benedict himself observed, ” I myself saw, in the years after 1988, how the return of communities which had been separated from Rome changed their interior attitudes.”

      • rachel

        Richard, you are correct that there is bad stuff after Vatican II that is toxic for anyone to read. I am speaking from personal experience. A few years after I became Catholic, a friend of mine was giving me some books to read about the errors of Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, stuff like that. I admit to have drunk a little bit of that bitter concoction and I was appalled at what it was doing to my soul so I finally gave some of this up. Some of the stuff I’m talking about is from the stuff I was reading as well as some people that I knew. Unfortunately, my friend went off the deep end and became a Sede :(. I hope that the trad societies will become more integrated into the Church so that some of the amber stuff will come off. I admit to being suspicious of the ghetto mentality. I don’t think that it completely serves us well as Catholics. We must go out of ourselves and evangelize and sadly, some trads and other Catholics don’t do that. They rather just stay in their little groups :(.

        • Richard M

          I look at this way, Rachel:

          My first responsibility is as a Catholic husband and father to work to assure the salvation of my family and myself. I am reluctant to call out any Catholic that puts that priority first in such a way that they aren’t making their life a 100% exercise in evangelization, even if that means finding a healthy traditional or semi-traditional parish or oratory to make as one’s home. Each of us has a calling. Some are called to do more of the hard work of reaching out to our neighbors. Some of us have our hands full raising our children in the faith.

          That said, some traditionalist communities could do more to evangelize, to bring more people into the fullness of faith. There are a number of ways to do that. And there are, as you say, risks attending the construction of traditional communities. I still think it’s a good and worthy model, but I also think we could, in many cases, do better in reaching out.

  • Suburbanbanshee

    Look, folks. It is historically true that some people who are Catholics (good!) were also raised to be anti-Semitic (evil and stupid!). Some anti-Semitic Catholics are more like liberals (and rip on Israel or kosher slaughter or circumcision), while others are more like conservatives (yet rip on Israel and kosher slaughter and circumcision). For historical reasons, the SSPX’s heavily French origins often drew from folks who had a rather strange version of Royalism (as seen in the Holy Blood, Holy Grail forgery of “Templar” documents “proving” that Jesus was the ancestor of the Merovingian kings).

    Now, of course it stinks to be marginalized or even persecuted. But it doesn’t help to respond to nasty treatment by getting nastier to others who are also being treated like crud by society. Having a real threat should make you focused on that, not frittering your attention on fake arcane conspiracies. Finding out that one marginalized thing is good (like traditional Catholic practices) doesn’t mean that everything society has abandoned (like anti-Semitism) is good and wise. And indeed, since a lot of folks are doing their best to bring anti-Semitism back (particularly as a way to avoid confronting actual evil terrorists trying to kill us), it would seem much more survival-oriented for traditional folks to be friendly with other minority groups of goodwill.

    • rachel

      It would be logical to be that way but sadly some traditionalists like to think they are in an exclusive club in which they can continue to be flies in amber and exclude anyone else that they don’t like so the bizzare and crazy conspiracy theories continue to influence them. For instance, there are very few traditionalist circles who are multi-racial/multi-cultural. Many of them are white with an exclusive European/North American/1st world outlook. They sometimes forget that the Church is actually universal and that many Catholics are 3rd world and darker skinned. Take a look at some of their views on music (especially Williamson and those who follow him). Ouch! It is awful what they say about rhythm, drums, etc.

      • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

        Not an expert on RadTrad percussion preferences, but will say that anyone who has lived under Protestant dominion will be VERY allergic to the use of drums, especially the kind used during marching band season to intimidate Catholics into submission (childhood memories of bowler-hatted Church of Scotland Calvinists marching along Paisley high street where my Grandmother lived in an apartment across the street from the Coat’s memorial still bring chills, Divine Mercy and the memory of IRA atrocities aids me in not tarring all Presbyterians with the same brush of bigotry that the Rev. Paisley spouts his intellect incapacitated by his spleen. Note the name Paisley may derive from the Brythonic Passeleg, ‘basilica’ (derived from the Greek) name for an earlier BretanoRoman foundation at the site of present day St. Mirin’s Abbey on the northern-most tip
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Britain_in_AD500_-_Project_Gutenberg_eText_16790.jpg
        of what would have been Christian Wales (Stewart monarch’s got their name from their Gaelic border guards forefathers, the Marcher lords, the Catholic title devolving to their modern-day Bavarian relatives). History is like that — complicated!

      • Richard M

        Well, Bishop Williamson is really as far out on the fringe as you can get. I really don’t think it’s fair to take him as representative of too much – save for a certain strain in the SSPX. Not many of us get worked up about the evils of The Sound of Music.

        I think your implicit comment about racism in traddy circles is unfortunate. Not because there isn’t some truth to it – yes, American traditionalist communities do tend to be heavily white – but because it’s less clear to me that they are all that different in this respect from regular diocesan parishes. In my experience, parishes have a tendency to group along ethnic lines, partly because of language barriers. Indeed, liberal communities working a Call to Action vibe can be as uniform as you can get – all white, all elderly.

        I think the bigger problem is a weakness traditionalists have for evangelizing, and this ends up, de facto, creating more homogeneous communities, especially when they exist in less diverse parts of the country (like the Midwest). But that said, I feel it is important to note that traditional communities I have been part of have often been surprisingly diverse. Note that the Institute of Christ the King got its start doing mission work in central Africa. And ICK oratories I have attended have had often surprising ethnic diversity, perhaps not coincidentally.

        • rachel

          My parish is in the inner city so our Latin Mass is multi-racial, including our choir (my husband and I are a part of). However, especially in the midwest, etc it is less diverse. Perhaps what I am talking about is some aspects of inculturation. I know that is a messy topic but there does seem to be a tendency in some circles (not only trad) that the only music that is permissible is western sacred music but in other parts of the world, like Africa for example, their sacred music has drums, etc. I’ve come across some people who think this is terrible. The Spanish Masses in the US usually uses “mariochi” type of music. It can be reverent and it isn’t crazy. I am all for Gregorian Chant and other hymns but there is the tendency that the only proper form is the European form. Does that make sense?

          • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

            Same here. Can think of several african American, hispanic and filipino families. Yes, it is probably majority white, but the churches I would normally be going to where I live are majority white as well.

            As far as inculturation, the reason it’s messy is because by nature it is messy. :) You deal with different cultures, different traditions, and are still trying to preserve a strong identity of Catholicism, yet make it appealing to local cultures and customs.

            This only works out after hundreds of years of trial and error. (Look at the evangelization of Britannia for some great success stories but also some pretty wild errors!)

        • Stu

          My OF parish is fairly diverse. Mainline Caucasian Americans, a strong Filipino contingent (God’s Special Forces as Father Calloway calls them) and many French families from the nearby NATO command.

          The common theme is a desire for orthodoxy and beauty.

          • Stu

            meant to say “EF” parish.

      • Richard M

        P.S. I like drums and rhythm – I would hate to give up my bossa nova collection – but I don’t think they have any place whatsoever in sacred music.

  • Suburbanbanshee

    “… who had a rather strange version of Royalism (as seen in the Holy Blood, Holy Grail forgery of “Templar” documents “proving” that Jesus was the ancestor of the Merovingian kings). And for whatever reasons, the same people who want to prove that their kings are Jewish, also want to prove that non-royal Jews are all evil conspirators. Mark isn’t making this up. But there are plenty of people who are loony red diaper baby liberal Catholic conspiracy theorists too, so there’s a sort of equality of evil foolishness still growing like tares among us, when we ought to be fighting such evil.”

  • MarylandBill

    It seems to me that conservative movements (and Traditionalism is one in the sense that it seeks to conserve the rites and the methods of teaching of the pre-Vatican II church) often become the refuge of people who hold old prejudices. Not because there is anything inherently wrong with conservatism or in this case Traditionalism, but because the language of conservatism can provide a cover for the prejudices… or at least an excuse for behaviors that are prejudicial.

    Holocaust Denial is one of the viler intellectual sins of the 20th and now the 21st century. Were the group involved American ex-patriots instead of Jews, it would be accepted on the testimony of its survivors alone. Instead, we have people rejecting the testimony of survivors, as well as mountains of other documentation.

    • rachel

      Maryland, part of that is the unwillingness to investigate. Williamson did a terrible disservice to many trads by continuing to advocate these un historical ideas about the holocaust. Some trads (few but they are out there) took him at his word. None of the sources he was using is reliable. There is a huge mountain of evidence to support the orthodox view of the holocaust from the methods used to the number of victims. The holocaust deniers are just as bad as geo centrists (adherents of Sugenius and others) although they are worse because they deny the horrific truth. In some sense, I think its the desire to try to paint the past with better colors ie. when morality was upheld, segregation was the norm, women stayed at home, and gays were in their closet. Problem is, there was no golden age. It would be a nightmare to have lived in the time period of the 30′s-50′s. The problems in the Church did not begin overnight during the 60′s. No, the problems go back several decades before Vatican II and it is difficult for some trads to see that. Instead, they cling to a made up view of the Church, believing it to have been infiltrated with masons, modernists, communists, and Jews. They attempt to minimize the amount of evil done to the Jews. In addition, here in the South, there are a few (I have met at least two) who have strange race theories in that they claim they are not racists, only racialists. They believe in total separation of the races which is so silly not to mention nearly impossible. Again, this stems from failing to investigate.

      • Stu

        Bishop Williamson, in “traditional” circles, is seen as possibly “crazy.” I only say possibly because I haven’t examined him personally.

        Again, he no more represents so-called “traditionalists” any more than Archbishop Malingo represents so-called “Novus Ordo” Catholics.

        • rachel

          This is true but he is not the only one who says some of this stuff. Bishop Fellay, who is still well respected in traditional circles says some disturbing things about Jews.

          • Stu

            I’ve actually seen our host accused of being an anti-semite and defended him against such charges.

            As for Fellay, I’d be happy to evaluate what he has said but I would love to hear it in context. But I will also point out, that he represents the SSPX, not the greater “traditional” movement. So for every person like him that you bring up, I can bring up Mahoney, Gumbleton, etc. Not very productive in my mind. I prefer with stick to addressing ideas only instead of projecting them on entire groups which is in my opinion just plain sloppy.

            Now, I’m not going to defend a Holocaust denier (or minimalist or whatever). Such views are just crazy. But I do think there are times when people throw out the charge of anti-semitism when it isn’t applicable to the debate at hand. Apparently the man who was the source for the RC story is a holocaust denier. That’s an idiotic belief, no doubt. But I’m not sure how it applies to the account he had provided that wasn’t even related to the Holocaust or even Jewish people for that matter.

            • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

              Stu,

              I think it was a case of just him making some really wild claims. His original claims afterall were Francis was a “sworn enemy” of the traditional mass, and did absolutely nothing about abortion, and as little as possible about fighting gay marriage. Now Rorate Caeli walked two out of three of those back. While Pope francis didn’t do a lot to have traditionalists be a friend, the evidence just isn’t there that he is a “sworn enemy” of the traditionalists the way a Mahoney, Kasper, Sodano, Bertone etc would be.

              So the guy is prone to rhetorical overreach. Once you realize he’s a holocaust denier, rhetorical overreach is par for the course with these cranks. I just considered it further evidence that this isn’t a man to be taken seriously on anything he says.

              • Stu

                Anything?

                I had what appeared to be a mentally ill homeless man approach me with haste on the street once to tell me, “Donuts have sugar.”

                He was correct.

                Most of the time you can filter nonsense from elements that have some bit of truth in them. The claims regarding the somewhat ham-handed application of SP are of that caliber.

                • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

                  Personally I just wish we would cite more non-insane sources.

                  • Stu

                    Agree.

                    And I wish that some people wouldn’t go looking for those extreme sources as being indicative of the whole.

      • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

        Don’t wanna so much as talk about the Williamson stuff, but the rest of what you said reminds me of people who call the 20′s through the 50′s the “golden era” of baseball. You know, the golden age when one of the greatest hitters (Josh Gibson) and pitchers (Satchel Page) were forbidden from playing in the pros because of the color of their skin.

        Or some laud the days of “Christendom” when Pope Alexander behaved like the worst of temporal monarchs, or nations tried to use the Pope as a negotiating pawn against their rivals. Or when the whole “age of chivalry” was more an ideal to aspire towards than something that most people actually practiced.

        That isn’t to say there weren’t some incredibly holy rulers, or that there wasn’t a lot to admire during this time frame. It only requires taking an objective look at the world and realizing that as we live in a world with temporal institutions which are flawed, we will get some flaws in every age, and that for a Catholic, there really has never been an “ideal” age, because the only ideal age will be the reign of Christ in heaven forever.

    • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

      indeed, taking up where Rachel left off “The fact is that many in traditional circles are not very intellectual.”
      As far as their intellect goes, they use it. They’re just not very proficient since their full capacity is occluded by the sin of pride. Holocaust deniers get by with a simulacrum of “intellectual” as in the pernicious work of the travel blogger “scrapbookpages” who attempts to convince tourists in Germany that the paucity of evidence means there’s no “there” there. Well duh, that’s why the Nazi’s built rail tracks to the many Vernichtungslager (annihilation or extermination camps) they had constructed for that purpose IN POLAND — they’re not to be found in Germany, so of course there’s no “there” there!
      (rather than refer to the site itself I’d rather point reader to an academic’s take-down: “A Scrapbook on Holocaust Denial, web resources for creating a Multimedia Scrapbook on Holocaust Denial” created by Bethany L. Cordes, Grand Valley State University see http://www.kn.pacbell.com/wired/fil/pages/scrapholocausbe.html)
      When I worked and lived in Germany in the ’80s and ’90s most of the sites of evil lay behind the Iron Curtain, all we had to go on where the reminiscences of victims like Elie Wiesel who survived slave labor in the Arbeitslager or journals left behind by those sent to be annihilated (Anne Frank, Edith Stein etc). When the wall fell I finally made a trip to the next closest camp after Dachau (near Munich): in Goethe’s Weimar whose Oak tree is preserved in midst of Weisel’s camp, Buchenwald. The camp extended to other parts of the city but these were returned to civilian use after the war and built over or allowed to return to nature (overgrown by weeds and trees). It was horrific enough to make a lasting impression (50,000 estimated victims incinerated, after being hung from their necks first to ensure rigor mortis kept bodies parallel for efficient packing of the ovens) and it was “only” a labor camp. Tu ne cede malis (do not give in to evil)

  • Stephen Spencer

    Ummm. So, I suppose, that if there is a nut–or maybe even 5–among non-traditionalists orthodox Catholics that means that responsible commentators should launch attacks encompassing non-traditionists as a whole? This infighting pleases and honors Satan–not Christ. Not a single soul has been saved through it.

    • Mark Shea

      Enough with the self-pity. Jew-hatred is endemic among on-line Traddery and has been for years and the response to Dawn (including your own) only demonstrates that point. Your whole “Let’s not bicker and argue about who killed who” approach to “peacemaking” simply puts you on the side of the nuts. Stop it.

      • Jim

        I see no self-pity in his comments. Are you saying, Mark, that Christ is pleased and honored that two factions are pitted against each other and hated?

        The fact is, that Dawn’s post and yours doesn’t rail against the perverse ideology but against a group of Catholics – thats the important distinction. I don’t need to fight against traditional Catholics that hold this view, I need to fight against the view. The traditionalst Catholic is not my enemy, the erroneous opinion is. Fueled by your own hatred, you and Dawn seem intent on tearing down and belittling those who hold the view and unwilling to hear out those who have no animus toward the person themselves but only want to oppose the opinion. Yes, I find that disappointing, as do others. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” and all that. It does seem that in places like this blog good will is to be extended to all except those you mock as “truly true traddies.”

        • Stu

          “I need to fight against the view.”
          ——————–
          INDEED!

      • Stephen Spencer

        Mark your responses are ideological, not Catholic.

        There was no self-pitty in my comment: I know that, and you know that. It is political-typse spin. Jew-hatred is not endemic among “Traddies”: that’s a “bald faced lie”–since you seem fond of the term.

        My response does not indicate jew-hatred: I know that and you know that. You are serving Satan by actually seeking conflict.

        I would explain what I did say, but it certainly seems clear to me: and I do not see how it cannot be clear to you. You are trying to stir up conflict through misrepresenting the positions of others: like a leftist political operative. There is no Christ in your comments.

        • Mark Shea

          Among online Traddies, absolutely Jew-hatred is endemic and has been for years and years and years. I repeat, yet again, that does not mean “Traditionalists are ipso facto anti-semites”. It means “If you encounter a crazy anti-semitic Catholic, he is likely a Traditionalist and he likely hangs out at Trad websites with lots of other crazy Jew-hating Catholics.” And Rorate Coeli is a very good (but by no means the only) place to find exactly that tolerated, excused, and covertly permitted–just like we see in Dawn’s combox attackers. When faced with that fact, you have a couple of options. You can, like many people, say a silent prayer for the twisted excusers and apologists for mass murder and get on with your day. A perfectly legit option. You can vocally oppose such people who do so much harm to the Faith and bring Traditionalism into so much dishonor, just as you might vocally oppose Catholics for a Free Choice. Or, you can complain, not about the Jew-hater, but about the person pointing out that these people bring the Faith into disrepute. You can claim that he, not they, serve Satan.

  • Stephen Spencer

    PS: this sort of infighting is ideological, not Catholic. I also apply that to Dawn Eden too: accusing an accurate claim being a “bald faced lie” due to the reasonable claim that the original source of the claim is anti-semetic.

    • Mark Shea

      Yes, clearly the big issue here is that Dawn Eden is mean, not that you are making excuses for apologists for mass murder.

      • Stephen Spencer

        I am NOT making excuses for an apologist for mass murder: and you know that very well.

        Mark, you are a divider. One who seeks to rent the Body of Christ.

        • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

          er may I correct you Stephen, the English word meaning tear asunder is spelled “rend,” scindam in Latin or αποχωρίζω apoChorizto (make sausage meat of you, chuckle) … however… perhaps that’s not what you meant?
          If you’re introducing a sophisticated diagnostic argument of that chief characteristic of our fallen age: the tyranny of relativism, then anyone “using” any part of the mystical Body of Christ to further their own personal preferences is of course a rent-seeker, and condoning such covetous usury of the Divine Gifts is surely to be countermanded as a betrayal as serious as Judas’. The Gospel term “speluncam latronum” attributed to Jesus’ disdain for wordly men (trans. a den of thieves, a coven of freebooters, the original tyrants of relativism) congregating out of indifference to Isaiah’s בַּיִת תְּפִלָּה (bayith tĕphillah, from beth and phillal, house of intercession) sanctuary of worship, the temple. Thus ANYONE who “uses” or is “indifferent” to the Mystical Body, the new covenant ‘house of intercession’ (privileging function over unction) is an infidel, no? Any anti-Semitic cafeteria (or in the case of SSPX, BarBQ) Catholics who self-referentially promotes such rent-seeking with other similarly-minded anti-Semitic cafeteria or BarBQ Catholics is a wretched usurious miser, no? (Pope Francis’ “collectors of antiques or novelties” http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/homilies/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130328_messa-crismale_en.html)
          The Hebrew people who maintain their patrimony as faithfully as they know how ARE NOT guilty of being Pelagians, of preferring the idolatry of management control over trust in Divine grace.
          (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/egregioustwaddle/2013/03/pope-francis-intervention-for-a-hoarder-church.html)
          How many of us ARE guilty? Sadly far too many sectarians prefer their Pelagian section to the Sacred whole.

          • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

            p.s.
            re: my uncharitable use of sarcasm for recalcitrant (ie protestant) holocaust-denying RadTrads:
            if it wasn’t a holocaust perhaps it was a BarBQ?
            Offering up (hence our al-tar) is Hebrew הָעֹלָה olah, grecified with addition of -caust for fireroasted, burnt. Catholics who cannot bring themselves to offer-up their discomfiture are thus BarBQ Catholics: they’d rather roast us in their comboxes than make a kenotic self-emptying gift of themselves in “imitatio christi” in the pews with us (SSPX refuse to enter full communion since they think their BarBQ is the real deal, as those satisfied with menu items selected from a perceived cafeteria may also be thus maligned in the combox wars.)
            Matthew 9:13 ἔλεος θέλω καὶ οὐ θυσίαν “Eleison was what I ordered, not BarBQ”
            (paraphrased, any perceived blasphemy is unintentional)

        • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

          oops Moderator my comment held (URLs links to .va and .patheos shouldn’t pose a problem)

  • JB

    I’m not pretending to be an ingenue here, but seriously, as a “cradle Catholic” who fell away and then reverted back to the Church in middle age – with gratitude for how the Church accepted me when I came home -I just don’t get any of this sh-t.

    And yes I know the history of “The Inquisition(s)” is not what most people think, however after reading what that lunatic wrote to our sweet co-religionist Dawn Eden, I can’t get this Mel Brooks performance out of my mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbcyiFt5VEs

  • The Jerk
  • Blake Helgoth

    As everyone knows, the OF Mass is heretical and not only illicit, but invalid. The rubrics as they exist in the 1962 missal were established by Christ himself as He walked the earth. The Church He founded had no right and certainly no authority to change even one of them. So, it is self evident that only those who attend the EF, even when celebrated by schismatics, hold the true Catholic faith. Nevermind the changes that came since the Mass of Pope St. Pius V. Nevermind that Christ Jesus gave His own authority to the Bishops. In fact, following the 1962 rubrics is the most important thing of all. It is in this that salvation consists. It you light the candles out of order you may slip onto everlasting damnation, but long as you follow those rubrics you can even be a Jew hating holocaust denier and salvation is assured.

    • rachel

      LOL Blake, I would put a sarcastic tag on the post :).

    • Jmac
      • Longinus

        Haha, thank Heaven that’s not the way Catholicism works! Our Latin Masses are never perfect; someone always stumbles over something, be it the priest or the choir…

    • EMS

      You had me going for a minute. The trouble is that a lot of the comments on Rorate (don’t remember the rest of it) sound perilously close to what you’re satirizing. The outright calumny against Pope Francis from self-styled faithful Catholics is terrifying and I think far more dangerous to the Church than the new atheists.

    • Yae

      OH MY GOSH! I pray with faith, I hope against hope, and I want so to have charity be my gift and I am going to hell anyway?! And all because I attend NO Masses only? NO Catholics love Jesus too!

      ” The outright calumny against Pope Francis from self-styled faithful Catholics is terrifying and I think far more dangerous to the Church than the new atheists.”
      The devil is having a field day as a result sowing seeds of division, gossip and scandal. Papa Francis had a something to say about it in his homily today.
      http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/04/09/pope:_the_struggle_to_reject_gossip_/en1-681101

  • David

    I am not saying all trads fall into this, but I did have a disturbing first experience with this.

    I remember just becoming Catholic, and coming across the page of a Traditionalist who created a bulls-eye like diagram representing the truth as the center (Catholicism), with concentric circles farther out from the center representing religions and movements farther and farther from the truth. Right near the center was Orthodoxy, followed by Anglo-Catholic Anglicanism…until you got to the two outer rings. Satanism was the second to last and Judaism was the last, farthest from the truth, even beyond Satanism. The rationale was something about Satanists making no bones about wanting to destroy the Church, while Jews are trying to secretly destroy it and thus are more dangerous.

    • Margaret

      Yuck. That’s just… yuck.

  • http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/ Erin Manning

    Okay, Mark, you know I mostly agree with you on this stuff, but for pity’s sake, did you have to bring up “Anthem?” If there’s one thing sane Catholics of the O.F., E.F., and any other letters can agree upon, it is that “Anthem” is the most horrible piece of would-be music ever inflicted upon the Church. Not even that old piece of cantus horribilis titled “Once To Every Man and Nation,” (with the sprightly lyrics “By the light of burning martyrs/Jesus’ bleeding feet I track…” and a musical setting that makes Bach’s “Toccata and Fugue in D Minor” seem positively cheerful) can compare to the sledgehammer of unpoetic banality and unsingable tunelessness of Tom Conry’s worst musical offense. You can’t even get a decent parody out of “Anthem” because there’s just no “there” there. And now, just because you mentioned it, I’m going to have this rotten earworm planted all day long…

    Maybe E.F.s and O.F.s could all come together to plead, beseech, and beg the USCCB to hire some people with good backgrounds in the history of sacred music to go through the modern American hymnbook with the liturgical music equivalent of pruning shears. Or hand grenades. Whatever it would take…

    • Margaret

      I dunno, Erin, I really honestly think highest honors for awfulness go to Ashes. And if you disagree with me you’re just proving yourself to be the librul neo-Cat we always thought you were… ;)

      • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

        Here I am Lord is even worse. Or “Send Down the Fire of your Justice”

        Trads and those in the OF can agree on this thing. Book burning is never the way to go, but i’m not sure if the gather hymnals can be called “books”, because books imply there is something redeeming in them.

      • orthros

        If all the world was ashes… then that means we just got nuked

        • Margaret

          What I want to know is, when did Christians start aspiring to be phoenixes? (Phoenixi?) I can think of nothing else when I hear people sing, “We rise again from ashes…”

          • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

            If I can be a Phoenix like Jean Grey, then yes, I totally want to be a Phoenix. Incinerating those i disagree with by using my mind would be far more satisfying than typing out a lengthy reply.

    • Richard M

      “If there’s one thing sane Catholics of the O.F., E.F., and any other letters can agree upon, it is that “Anthem” is the most horrible piece of would-be music ever inflicted upon the Church.”

      Tom Conry is a uniter, not a divider.

  • Brian

    Fear public scandal? Never! Christ is risen, why should I be afraid of these people?!

  • A P O’BEACHA’IN

    why waste carbon imprint to spread bigotry lies and hatred on here. There is too much already in the real world without lies like this.

    • Mark Shea

      Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. – Ephesians 5:11

  • Lydia

    The parish in which I was married had a good number of both vocal and bashful anti-Semites. I attended mass there for years and watched my husband go to bat for Jewish people and Judaism. The internet isn’t real life, sure, but I’ve frequently found in other EF parishes/congregations, a sort of bashful anti-Semitism, or at least the kind of apologetic that says “Well, so and so’s wrong about this but he’s great about liturgics/politics/etc.” Apparently considering the source isn’t really something certain types of trads do. It’s not just the internet-enough people have these experiences with enough traditionalists to see that it’s a real issue. Just saying “Oh, it’s not like that in my parish” isn’t enough. Be glad it’s not in your parish, but sticking one’s head in the sand about a real problem in a real subculture doesn’t make it go away. I think that anyone sympathetic to the EF who hears anything along the lines of holocaust belittlement or Fr. Feeney-esque anti-Semitism has a responsibility to say something to correct the person or group spouting off that nonsense. It’s a sin. Fraternal correction definitely applies.

    • Lydia

      I should mention that it was an indult parish before SP came out, but not much changed afterwards.

  • Vick

    Tsk. Tsk. How dare those uppity Jooooooz give the world the Messiah, Lord, and Saviour.

    The indelible fact, like it or not, is that Jesus was not a Jew.; He is a Jew. How do you like them “apples?” ;-] The fact that modern-day Jews do not accept Him as Messiah does not erase Jesus’ Jewishness. Besides, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever [Heb: 12:8]

    G-d bless the Jewish people.

  • http://Stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com thetimman

    Waiting for your self-flagellating post on the insufferable smugness of self-identified conservative novus ordo Catholics, that turns away potential converts from rad-tradism.

    Holding my breath beginning…now.

    • http://www.catholicvote.org/author/patrick-thornton/ Patrick Thornton

      Why?

      Rorate and others have been printing mostly hysterical bullshit since Pope Francis was elected.

      No one’s being smug.

    • Mark Shea

      What is this? Pee Wee Herman? “IknowyouarebutwhatamI?” You want to defend creeps who deny and excuse mass murder, knock yourself out. Healthy traditionalists don’t make excuses for these clowns. They denounce them.

      • http://Stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com thetimman

        I hesitate to respond, Mark, but of course I didn’t defend anyone, I didn’t make any excuses, and you haven’t responded to my critique. But, it is your blog and you will have the last word. I just don’t get you on your monomania about rad trads– I have respect for you and your apostolate, which is why this particular thing bugs me.

        Peace to you and yours.

  • http://www.catholicvote.org/author/patrick-thornton/ Patrick Thornton

    I think it would help if the weenies at Rorate would post using their real names. There’s nothing like putting your real identity next to eternal internet content to help temper stupidity.

    Yes, I said weenie. That word is the best to describe the hypocritical rumor-mongering writers at Rorate.

    Weenie.

    • http://Stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com thetimman

      Dunno. Seems smug to me.

      • http://www.catholicvote.org/author/patrick-thornton/ Patrick Thornton

        More mean than smug.

        I think real ID’s promote charity and somewhat limit the crazy. Do you disagree?

        • Stu

          Assuming you really are Patrick Thornton.

        • http://Stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com thetimman

          Possibly, but I don’t think so, as even a first and last name could be assumed. We don’t know each other. So, “thetimman” for me or “Patrick Thornton” for you, or “New Catholic” or “Mark Shea” and so on. The Internet offers anonymity to all because we don’t have to sit across from each other or in the grocery check out and answer to each other. It gives no anonymity because all ip addresses could be tracked, given enough time and desire. As long as the noms de plume are identifiable vis-a-vis other posters it is enough to further a conversation.

          And then the comments stand or fall on their own. I don’t fault a blogger for comments in his combos that aren’t his. Combox moderating, I can assure you, is a drag. If you want to allow people to disagree with you or others, and wish to avoid sycophantism, then inevitably some get through that you might have blocked on a different day, or in a different mood, or if they were phrased slightly differently. Humans are moderating just as humans are posting. None of us are as good as our best act or as bad as our worst.

          It seems to me that Catholics should begin to practice charity at home.

          Perhaps even if– especially of– we don’t think our fellow Catholics are exercising it toward us.

          • Stu

            Perhaps even if– especially of– we don’t think our fellow Catholics are exercising it toward us.
            ——————————-
            It sometimes takes but one person to be the hero.

          • http://www.catholicvote.org/author/patrick-thornton/ Patrick Thornton

            I still think it helps. Knowing that potential business partners, clients, employers, media etc. can see one’s combox and blog handiwork can make one think twice about going overboard.

        • Stephen Spencer

          Using is real name doesn’t keep Mark Shea from being a bomb thrower.

          • Mark Shea

            Glad you aren’t indulging in personal attacks.

    • Richard M

      One of them does use his real name – Ken Wolfe.

      But this ship sailed a long time ago. And for those part-time bloggers concerned about preserving their livelihoods, not least for their family’s sake, in a world where employers may seize any unpopular opinion as an excuse for dismissal, I’m not going to waste too much umbrage against those employing nom de plumes.

      And, as Stephen points out, even use of a real name doesn’t prevent some bloggers from histrionics.

      • Suburbanbanshee

        Nom de plumes have been traditional on the Internet since the days when everybody on the Internet knew the name and address of everybody else. Handles and nicknames are stylish and fun and nerdy, and the Internet was created by nerds.

        I think that if everybody posted using their real names, the very servers and routers would probably all go into depressive fits.

  • Charlotte

    Only a few hundred Jews died? Wow, all those grave stones I saw in Paris – the ones with the stars of david and all having dates like 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, etc. – those must have been paid for and erected by the Zionists.

  • Charlotte

    Some here are saying that it’s only a fringe following Williamson? By numbers, ok. But a careful look through the internet shows massive support for him. There is an online petition of support for Williamson by (ex?) SSPX who believe Fellay is a sellout. There were at least 1000 signatures there when I looked a few months ago, and the comments with the signatures were……pure crazy. Most of them to the effect that Williamson is the only person left on the planet who can save the Church. Maybe a 1000 or so are a minority, but I assume real people took the time to sign and pledge money to him. Which means the crazy is being promulgated.

    As to the people who contend that traditionalists get outdated ideas from very old literature, I agree. For 3 years I have been cleaning out my great grandmother’s estate, kept untouched by my grandmother until lately, which is filled with every Catholic holy card, medal, book, and pamphlet that she ever laid hands on from around 1900 to 1962, when she died. I sell lots of these items on Ebay…the bidding is brisk, and almost always the winning bidder is a traditionalist. They definitely want this stuff.

    Kids at the Latin mass? I’m of the opinion they don’t want them there. First TLM I ever went to, I walked in and was greeted by a huge chained off area in the back with a sign basically ordering anyobe with babies and toddlers to sit behind the chain. Huge turn off and something I can’t forget.

    • Stephen Spencer

      In a very large world, 1,000 names is small.

      As for your experience with kids and Catholic mass, I’ve been attending the traditional Latin mass for about 10 years: I’ve never seen what you describe, and I’ve never experienced most of what other negative characterizations that have been made above.

      On the internet? Yes. Crazies have a megaphone. But that is not my experience at the parish level–not in reality.

    • Richard M

      “Kids at the Latin mass? I’m of the opinion they don’t want them there.”

      I’ve lived in three different cities where I have attended traditional Masses (FSSP, ICK, diocesan), and stopped in at a number of others in my travels, and I must say that I have never seen one treat children in this way. I’m not denying what you experienced; I am saying it’s unheard of in any traditional parish I have ever seen. More to the point, it’s the dead opposite, because such parishes tend to be filled with very large families. A traditional parish that tried to be hostile to children would end up with empty pews very quickly, I should think.

      “But a careful look through the internet shows massive support for him.”

      You can make anything look larger than it is on the web. Bishop Williamson has a very, very devoted fanbase, a disproportionate number of whom seem very active on the web. It’s hard to gauge size now, since he’s made so many enemies even within the SSPX now.

      My guess, based on numbers I have seen, is that there are anywhere from several hundred thousand to a million traditionalists, broadly defined, in the U.S.. I’d be honestly surprised if that included more than a few thousand real Williamson supporters.

      • Stu

        Kids at the Latin mass? I’m of the opinion they don’t want them there.
        ——————
        That’s just silly talk.

      • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

        Something to keep in perspective.

        Maybe 2% of the American catholic population knows Mark shea exists, and of that 2%, maybe half read him semi-occasionally.

        Unless you keep abreast of the traditionalist moment, chances are you have no clue who Bishop Williamson even is, or why he’s as much a disgrace to the episcopacy as the worst progressive bishops.

        • Mark Shea

          Very true. The overwhelming response of most Catholics to the fall of Fr. Corapi was, “Who?” That goes 1000x for my alleged impact on American Catholic life.

  • Edmund Whitmore

    There are two sides to this fight. Jews get all upset when holocaust deniers come along and shout out their BS and rightly so, but why is it a sin to point out that the Talmud says Jesus was a demon possessed sorcerer who is boiling in his own feces and that Mary was a whore? I have never understood why Catholics are supposed to change our beliefs yet the Jews can keep their anti-Christian trash. double standard much…?

    • Mark Shea

      Do feel free to let me know where, in this entire discussion–except for anti-semites themselves–any person at all has said, “Well, we *do* have to consider the reality that medieval Jewish polemicists really have a point about Jesus being a demon possessed sorcerer who is boiling in his own feces and that Mary was a whore.” In short, *nobody* is citing Talmudic polemics except people looking for excuses to hate modern Jews and justify or belittle murdering them.

  • Stephen Spencer

    It has been the character assassination and hate that I have seen over the years that has pushed me further and further into tradition. Mark Shea’s comments above consist primarily of personal attacks. They are disgusting.

    • Mark Shea

      No. No self pity here.

    • Mark Shea

      Character assassination like “Jews are Christ-killers”? I sort of thought we could all agree that such statements are *not* authentically expressive of Traditionalism and that healthy Traditionalists oppose them. Other Traditionalists here have no problem doing that. So why would you feel personally attacked? Why not defend the honor of Traditionalists against people who say such disgusting things and not against people who call out such disgusting statements?

    • Andy, Bad Person

      Somebody call a whaaambulance.

  • Ryan O’Shea

    Is it lost on the faithful that Jesus’ harshest words were to the leaders and laity of his covenant household? These words are therefore relevant to Catholics today, even more relevant as we are ingrafted branches. Being born again and adopted at infancy can make one feel entitled-and we saw how things went for such people-or honored and grateful. The blogosphere is not off-limits to the Royal Commandment to love our neighbors as ourselves.

  • http://pathos tim

    Mark Shea what fellowship do you belong to.

    • Mark Shea

      The Catholic Church.

  • http://pathos tim

    Where do you meet with your fellow brethren.

    • Mark Shea

      At home, Church, and online.

  • http://pathos tim

    So you don’t have all things in common and share all your worldly goods with your brethren.

    • Suburbanbanshee

      I think it could be argued that the internet brethren often overshare….

      • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

        This just won the thread.

    • Mark Shea

      Tim: Could you send me all your money please?

  • Tancred

    I’m more worried about unchecked idiocy from pseudo anti-catholic cloggers and the effeminate hysteria here than any allegations of Jew hatred.

  • Joannie

    Several years back on one of EWTN’s “Family Celebrations” about 2006 or so, Fr Benedict Groeshel was talking to the audience about how things like conservative or liberal left or right are not what is important in our Church. He said the main thing was that we are all CATHOLICS with no labels before it and that instead of all this infighting among ourselves we should be fighting the enemies of the Church and the Secular Culture. All this does is show us as divided like the MSM keeps trying to say, shall we prove them correct. There is room in the Church for everybody as far as I am concerned and that includes so called Tradtionalists as Pope Emeritus Benedict put forth in his 2007 Moto Proprio on the Latin Mass (as well as the older forms of the other Sacraments. In other words “different strokes” for different folks” We all need to focus on being the best Catholics we can but also respecting the opinions of others even if they are wrong. It is called forebearance.

  • Charlotte

    The church with the cordoned off area for families with babies and toddlers is an ICK parish. When I last asked someone in the know if they still had it and the sign, the answer was yes. Maybe it doesn’t mean they don’t want kids in church, but it does say this: keep your crying babies away from me, as it disturbs my aesthetic sensibilities for silence and reading along in silence in my missal. If I had 5 bucks for every online discussion where I saw traditional catholics argue for people getting control of their kids so as not to disturb holy mass, I could take Mark out for a 5 star steak dinner. Which I would happily do.

    • Stu

      Such charity and the ability to read minds all rolled up into one!

      I have six children and for the most part we have brought them all into Mass (away from cry rooms) at a very early age. Sometimes they act up and that means I take them out of Mass. It would be wrong for me to sit there with my child who creating a disturbance.

      Sections like that for families isn’t anti-child. It’s a statement against parents who aren’t effectively disciplining a child. Big difference. Not necessarily the approach I would want but as a parent I can make the proper distinctions.

      As to kids and traditional parishes. They go hand-in-hand. You find most Catholics who are attracted to the EF also embrace the Church teaching on being open to life. That means big families which means lots of children.

      • Charlotte

        I shudder to think what “parents not effectively disciplining their kids” means. Sorry, but it’s judgemental from the onset to direct families like that. But then, some (not all) trads excel at that sort of thing. That it would be institutionalized by an ICK parish is thus not surprising.

    • marytoo

      I feel the need to defend my people :) Yes, we who attend the EF are generally seriousminded. Many of us are refugees from truly bad liturgies. A good number of us drive a hour or more to get to our parishes – that’s how much we love the old Mass. So it makes sense that it draws in some strong personalities and, yes, even some wackos. So be it. Many of us had never felt Christ’s real presence until we attended this liturgy; maybe we felt we had been deprived of that indescribably beautiful relationship, and maybe that broke our hearts and filled us with sorrow and a need to make up for lost time. Maybe that sorrow turns a bit too quickly to fear and then anger that all will be lost once again. And maybe a few of us are therefore overly defensive and go too far to protect what we have found.

      No excuses. Bad behavior is bad behavior. But most of us are decent, Christ-loving souls.

      BTW, there are loads of kids at my EF parish. :)

      • Charlotte

        Not saying there aren’t loads of kids at EF parishes. Of course there are. But kids interfering (oops, misbehaving), thereby causing disruption to silent nose in the missal worship? I definitely think some at the EF wish they weren’t there since they just can’t be “controlled.”

        • marytoo

          Loads of kids present at the EF means loads of parents don’t share your feelings. I’m sorry if you feel you’ve been wronged but please don’t belittle the beautiful old Mass by ascribing thoughts like “keep your crying babies away from me, as it disturbs my aesthetic sensibilities for silence and reading along in silence in my missal” and “silent nose in the missal worship” to your fellow Catholics. No offense intended here: the root of your problem isn’t the noisy children. By your above statements it can be seen that you don’t have a good understanding of – even seem to resent – the long silences, etc. in the EF. The silences promote deep contemplation and therefore call for a quieter congregation than you may be used to. If you don’t like this at least don’t mock it.

      • Suzanne

        So feeling Christ’s real presence is more important than just having Christ’s real presence? As an OF Catholic, I detest bad liturgy as much as anyone with sense. But, dragging my kids to another town to a Mass they don’t understand(yet) and further isolating myself from the Catholics in my physical community doesn’t seem to be the answer for me. If all faithful Catholics abandon the OF parishes, where does that leave those parishes? How does that build the Church? My faith in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, based on His words and the Church’s teaching is sufficient, I don’t need special feelings. And, when I occasionally wind up at a Mass with “Anthem,” I just close my “hymnal” and pray quietly, reminding myself that Jesus humbled himself to come to this Mass, I can’t say it’s not good enough for me. My children are studying Latin and I want to take them to an EF Mass so they can have that connection to our history and see that part of the beauty the Church has to offer, but I never want them to think that any Mass with Christ’s presence is beneath them.

        • marytoo

          Hi Suzanne – I think you are responding to me? I’m not sure where you get from my two posts that I think less of those who attend the OF – some of my dearest friends/relatives do and they are truly devout people – put me to shame as a matter of fact. My post was a direct response to Charlotte, who posted some sarcastic things about those who attend the EF and their style of worship. We shouldn’t be mocking each other, right? I feel Charlotte is annoyed by the need for silence because she doesn’t really understand it – she seems to think it’s an unnecessary imposition on the congregation, which is a mistaken notion. I pointed out that many parents don’t agree with her otherwise there wouldn’t be lots of families, just trying to appeal to logic. In no way do I feel superior – I have friends/relatives of all stripes, from SSPX to atheist! The EF is what works for us and I simply ask that it not be belittled and I think that is reasonable.

          I understand that changing over to the EF is a *huge* leap, it was for me anyway. It didn’t happen overnight, I spent a few years going once in a while – and being totally confused when there! – but I was very attracted to it for the, as you say, beauty and history, and my kids were in Latin also. If my kids gave me lot of pushback our eventual switch to the EF exclusively may never have happened, believe me. For some reason they didn’t give us a hard time – I can’t explain why, but I’ve heard others say the same, I think maybe kids are fascinated by it. My husband finally converted after attending the EF for two years, so maybe God had something in mind for us. I can see you love Christ so much and that is the only thing that matters. Our old parish took a liturgical nose dive and we couldn’t find anything better in our area, otherwise we’d still be there.

          If you do decide to try the EF (ignore this if you’ve already been) just take it in, try to follow but if you can’t don’t worry, just do what everyone else does. Each time it will reveal itself to you a little more. In the beginning I was intimidated, I kept getting lost and I actually had feelings that I didn’t belong there, isn’t that ridiculous? The EF is our heritage as Catholics – we all belong. Plus it’s simply beautiful, everyone should go at least once. God bless and sorry for the misunderstanding.

  • http://socrates58.blogspot.com Dave Armstrong

    I just discovered an article in which Marcelo Gonzalez protested that Bishop Williamson [the SSPX Holocaust denier] was kicked out of Argentina:

    “Williamson had said he believed that no more than three hundred thousand Jews died in Germany’s Nazi concentration camps rather than the widely accepted figure of six million.”

    [Marcelo Gonzalez, Journalist]:
    “I agree that what he said was imprudent. It’s beyond the responsibilities of a bishop. A bishop shouldn’t express opinions. His responsibilities are exclusively religious and spiritual. But it doesn’t warrant kicking him out of the country. What he did in the country must be considered.”

    http://ntdtv.org/en/254/7950.html

    Gonzalez is a typical radtrad: he talks out of both sides of his mouth. It’s sort of “Clinton-speak” or Orwellian doublespeak: the ability to say contradictory things simultaneously, so that if ever called on the bad stuff, one can say, “oh but you’re wrong, cuz over *here* I said x . . . “

  • http://socrates58.blogspot.com Dave Armstrong

    Here is an ultra-anti-Semitic comment (e.g., the gas chambers at Auschwitz are a myth) that was allowed to be posted at Marcelo Gonzalez’ website on 9 February 2009, which means it has been there for over four years. The name of the post it appears under, is “El Comentario del Día” (2-8-09):

    alguien que sabe

    Transcribo un artículo en referencia al tema que “sacude al dogma católico”: tener duda razonable sobre eventos históricos; Lamento que esté en inglés: “The tenor of this article from the untrustworthy German-Zionist press ( Deutsche-Welle | Feb. 7, 2009 http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4010109,00.html) is that Bishop Williamson is about to recant and intends to recant unless new revisionist evidence convinces him otherwise. This is not the case. His intentions are pure. He is only keeping an open mind. He has made no decision to recant and he is not disposed to recant unless the exterminationists can prove their case. As Robert Faurisson, Arthur R. Butz, Carlo Mattogno, Samuel Crowell, Paul Grubach, Fred Leutchter, Richard Widmann, Brian Renk and many other competent and courageous revisionist scholars have shown, the case for the execution gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau has never been more flimsy. For myself (I am not speaking for Bishop Williamson!) St. Paul gave us the warrant to doubt in Titus 1:14: “Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.” If the whole media were tomorrow to confront me and say I must believe that the moon is made of green chesse, it is not incumbent on me to prove that it is not made of green cheese! The obligation is on those who assert the proposition. This writer is forever absolved from having to believe in the homicidal gas chambers of Auschwitz. I was a reporter at the first show trial of publisher Ernst Zundel in Toronto in 1985. I reported it from the press gallery in the courtroom, as an accredited member of the media. I observed as the “infallible” Judaic “eyewitnesses” to the gassings were finally cross-examined instead of pampered and worshipped, in this case the cross-examination was conducted by the skilled defense attorney Doug Christie, guided by Prof. Faurisson, who led the Zundel defense team. Under cross-examination it was these Judaic “infallible eyewitnesses” who we are commanded by the Vatican to believe as if they were the angels of heaven–it was they who recanted, including the famous War Refugee Board “eyewitness” Rudolf Vrba. According to the pope, the Vatican, the media, the blood-drenched killers of the Israeli regime and all the planet’s leading moralists, it is some kind of mortal sin not to believe these liars. Sorry. I was there. I saw them confess their lies. Dr. Raul Hilberg testified at the same trial, also for the prosecution. He was the “dean of American ‘Holocaust’ historians.” Under cross examination he could produce not one autopsy report showing that anyone had ever been gassed at Auschwitz. Not one. Burn me at the stake, but I do not believe that anyone was ever gassed to death at Auschwitz-Birkenau. In the words of Prof. Arthur R. Butz in his classic treatise, this notion is “The Hoax of the Twentieth Century.” And what of the German eyewitnesses like agronomist Thies Christophersen who were stationed in Auschwitz and testify that there were never any homicidal gassings? He gave this testimony in spite of it being, under modern German law, illegal for him to do so. If the modern Catholic Church makes this execution gas chamber fable a litmus test for fitness to hold church office, as Pope Benedict XVI seems to have done, it is the end of the credibility of modern Catholicism. Benedict’s move is an extension of the rabbinic Shoah theology pioneered by Pope John Paul II, who “infallibly” declared as part of the canonization process of Edith Stein, who became a Catholic nun and died tragically in Auschwitz, that her cause of death was “gassing.” Revisionist skepticism — toward Auschwitz-Birkenau gassings or any statement of any Orthodox rabbi on any point of Scripture, theology or history –such skepticism is divinely warranted by Titus 1:14. No Orwellian rewrite or Talmudic-Vatican nullification will every overthrow what the Apostle Paul declared to be the right of every Christian. I’ll take the Apostle Paul over the modern Vatican Saul any day. If Pope Benedict really did act as the Vicar of Christ and the heir of St. Peter, he would tell German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the disgusting jailer of writers and scientists, and the Israeli rabbinate, the depraved purveyors of lies and hatred for Jesus Christ, to butt out of the affairs of the Church! Instead, we see the usual servile Machiavellian gamesmanship. A few years ago Bishop Williamson made an analogy between cutting deals with the Vatican and the famous cautionary poem by Mary Howitt, whose signature line is, “Welcome to my parlor, said the spider to the fly.” May God grant the bishop the grace and tenacity to recall that wisdom now, in this great crisis, when the eyes of the world are upon him, so that he will cut no deals and recant no doubts about “commandments of men that turn from the truth.” By so doing he will earn the thanks and admiration of every sincere truth-seeker, and what is more by far, He will glorify the Name of Yahweh our God, and His Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Michael Hoffman (Hoffman is a former reporter for the New York bureau of the Associated Press and the author of “Judaism Discovered: A Study of the Anti-Biblical Religion of Racism, Self-Worship, Superstition and Deceit)” http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/
    Enviado por Anónimo el Lun, 02/09/2009 – 10:42.

    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpanoramacatolico.info%2Farticulo%2Fholocausto-y-holocuento&act=url

  • http://socrates58.blogspot.com Dave Armstrong
  • Marthe Lépine

    I have not had time to read all of these comments yet, but I have to say that this whole issue has seemed very strange to me ever since I started reading blogs. I am a French-Canadian cradle Catholic, I have never missed Sunday mass except for a serious reason (even if I was sick, when I owned a car I would still drive to go to an evening mass in the neighbouring city after resting all day). And I lived in a number of small and large towns. But I have never encountered that kind of division between “traditional” and “ordinary” Catholics in Canada… Sure, there are people who prefer to attend a Latin mass wherever there is one available, but I have never noticed any of these people loudly belittling the OF mass. And I am usually well-informed, how can it be that I have failed to notice any such thing? Or maybe this is just not a “Canadian” thing…

    • Longinus

      Can’t speak for Canada, but here in New York State I’ve heard plenty of my fellow traditionalists criticize the OF; I’ve done it myself, to be honest. I consider modern English a bit too vulgar for something so solemn, though I have a soft spot for OF Masses in Polish. In any case, maybe you Canadians are just better at getting along than we Americans…

  • Kirt Higdon

    Many commenters here seem to regard the SSPX as the furthest extreme of traditionalism and caution not to judge all traditionalists by the SSPX. Actually the SSPX qualifies as relatively moderate – at least they recognize the Pope even if they have no intention of obeying him. Further out are the various sedevacantists who recognize no pope since Pius XII as legitimate and others who recognize various anti-popelets. Again, I’ve encountered such people and read their publications; I’m not relying on the internet. These people are very few in number compared to faithful Catholics, but amount to a very prominent share of traditionalists. Not all of them are Jew-haters but the percentage I think is much higher than among faithful Catholics. And all from the SSPX on out are anti-papal, hence against the Church as Christ established it. I commend Pope Benedict’s outreach to the SSPX; he was truly the good shepherd trying to bring home the lost sheep. Too bad those particular sheep saw themselves as entitled to be the shepherd.

  • Lucas Hennessey

    So, I’ve got a bit of a dog in this fight, as I exclusively attend the TLM. I also disagree with Mark on nearly everything he says. But seriously, this is no longer a sensible discussion, and it’s quite frankly not accomplishing anything in regards to furthering the Catholic Faith. In fact, I think it’s accomplishing quite the opposite. We’re all sinners, and we all have planks in our eyes. Get to confession, receive the eucharist often and reverently, and stop crucifying Christ repeatedly by attacking each other in internet comboxes. Geez.

    • Mark Shea

      Let’s not bicker and argue about who slaughtered who. Let’s just agree that Jews somehow died by the millions and it is *very* mean to pick on people who want to minimize and ignore how exactly that happened.

      • Lucas Hennessey

        Whoa, I’m not defending holocaust deniers. I’m just saying that bickering in internet comboxes and ad hominem attacks (from all sides) isn’t the way to effect change, either inside or outside the Church.

  • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

    Compunction impels me to note that it was so sad that this “kerfuffle” has distracted us from the translated celebration of the Annunciation (4-8 Monday past, eve of Holocaust remembrance day 4-9).
    In reparation perhaps take in these wise words of Bishop Fulton Sheen in video clip posted by Msgr. Pope of ADW here:
    http://blog.adw.org/2013/04/three-characteristics-of-the-diabolical-and-how-they-are-manifest-in-the-modern-world/
    IMHO? Adoption of the epithet “tyranny of relativism” was BXVI’s intervention to couch the term dia-bol-ical (to cut in two, to divide) salon-worthy for modern ears, to allow us to discource with the culture without intending harm (if you know certain hotbuttons cause your interlocutors to stumble along “the narrow way” you reformulate your argument, right, to stay engaged?)
    Any attempt by man to separate the Triune action of His gift of grace [tripartite theological virtues (i) in the conscious senses by detachment through faith seeking beauty (ii) in the memory’s conscience by illumination under hope seeking goodness (iii) in the heart’s ever-present will to commune with caritas in veritate) is “relative” (faceted, opposed) to seeking the Face of God in humble adoration. Many of us are inclined to one or other virtue (perhaps because we’ve been gifted in that area and thus easier to exercise) and can be tempted to scoff at those who we discern fall short. The big FAIL is that in judging by one measure we overlook the other two, and thus fall WAY short ourselves. So, speaking for myself, for any worldly lack of detachment, any ideological omission in formation, and any selfish indifference to fellow sinners or use of their misery to isolate them on my part, I am heartily sorry, and beg your forgiveness. For, without the superabundant mercy of Jesus poured out for all of us at Calvary, I too am worldly, deformed, and lost. Offered for all. Consecrated for the many. The difference? A contrite and receptive heart.

  • fats

    If someone attempts to denigrate, or minimize, or twist the truth about the Holocaust, they need to be called to account for it. If anything, the more recent statistics indicate there were more, not less killed, since , if i remember correctly, the numbers killed in Russia were only recently brought up
    ( something like 1.5 million more). In the past, if i remember correctly, there were a lot of estimates at end of the war, some more, some less, but the number settled on in the end was about 6 million. To claim it was not a State sponsored genocide, is denying that the Nazi officials who participated in it were not acting on the authority of top officials, including Hitler, that is also a falsehood. Eichmann acted on the authorization of those above him, according to documents at his trial.

    The hatred of Jews is something that has existed for centuries, i suppose that includes hatred of Jesus too, and His Apostles? How can you convince those who are not Catholic, to be Catholic, by way of hate? I see a similarity in attitude when those that want to attack people in Catholicism for not holding fast to what is deemed “Catholic” when it is neither part of Dogma, or Tradition. Aren’t a complaints today about “eating wheat in a field, on the Sabbath” , expressed with the same level of outrage as during Christ’s lifetime, while missing Christ’s real message of Salvation, and His Sacrifice? I love my Church for dragging me out of the slime of my former life,and thank God daily for Her guidance, whether it be in Latin or English.


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