Comments on: Gay and Muslim!? Yes, It’s True!

By: Her Man « Muslimah Media Watch

Her Man « Muslimah Media Watch — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:08:03 +0000

[...] to critique the movie in my post, given the response we had when we discussed the documentary Gay Muslims and the movie A Jihad for [...]

By: lisa

lisa — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:17:00 +0000

great discussion. thank you for taking such a risk and posting this article, fatima, and for bringing visibility to the struggles facing queer/muslim peoples. while i am not interested in engaging with the “homosexuality is fine as long as you don’t have sex” conversation, i do think that it’s fair to say that many queer muslim’s, and other queer people from religious backgrounds, have a difficult time accepting their own sexual identity, not because they are afraid of being seen as gay, but because they are afraid of being seen as SEXUAL. it is actually harder to come out as a sexual person than as a queer one. it’s as though the conversation is actually about SEX and not about orientation at all. in fact, a straight muslim identified person probably has the same anxiety when it comes to admitting they’ve engaged in (and enjoyed) pre-marital sex, or even worse, BDSM sex.this is a constant issue affecting women because we are socialized to believe that women aren’t allowed to be sexual. PERIOD. women shouldn’t enjoy sex. women shouldn’t have sex before marriage. a promiscuous woman is given many derogatory labels, etc. you get the point. i would even argue that queer male muslims probably have a much easier time coming out to their families than a queer female muslim. in fact, i think the documentary’s representations of both male and female experiences supports that.thanks for such a great discussion. looking forward to more articles such as this.

By: luckyfatima

luckyfatima — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:00:00 +0000

great post. can i just say that i am a religious, prayer saying, scarf wearing, relatively conservative Muslim, and I accept gay and lesbian people are part of the reality of the diversity of my community…not all of us are homophobic…thanks for posting this. It is hard to do cuz I know the flack you will get, just look above.I feel so bad for the kids in this video who are forced to live a lie and get married. I also personally know two women who are/were married to gay men—it destroyed their lives. Sweeping it under the rug with a marriage is not the solution and it hurts everyone involved.

By: Zeynab

Zeynab — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:07:00 +0000

Dawud, I believe the inability of gay Muslims to turn to the white LGBT community affects mainly gay Muslims of color (like the ones in the documentary). However, I would also argue that even white Muslims who are gay would have a problem, because of many LGBT groups’ Islamophobia.

By: dawud al-gharib

dawud al-gharib — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:20:00 +0000

@fatima:apparently, Islam and what Islam says doesn’t matter about who is a muslim, because there are muslims who are gay (agreed) – I’ll agree thus far, the Prophet did say that someone who committed fornication wasn’t a believer while they committed that act, but also said that a believer could remain a believer even if they stole and fornicated, so long as they repented, but couldn’t be a liar.but I’m afraid I’m not clear on what you mean when you said that muslims who were queer (or identified as such, as I understand it) couldn’t turn to the lgbt community… “because that is primarily white.” – so being gay doesn’t disqualify one from being muslim, but being white does?I’m a muslim by faith, and white only as an accident of birth – and while I’m not gay and can’t understand that as a choice, I’m quite sure that I also didn’t choose to be ‘white’ = so if you didn’t mean to say that all cultures, gay included, are ‘muslim’ without reference to what muslims believe in – but to be ‘white’ is outside of that – you may want to clarify what you mean.I know there are plenty of muslims who are sympathetic to other muslims if they said they had homosexual feelings – provided they didn’t try to justify them and take them as a source of ‘Pride’ – because arrogance is far from a noble virtue, and just the use of the word implies something outside of Islam – or do you not believe that either? that arrogance is a form of shirk is something muslims believe, and thus the very idea of ‘gay pride’ (or pride in any kind of tribal identity, of any accidental quality we have) is offensive…http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/049.qmt.html#049.013049.013YUSUFALI: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). I think you’d find that there are Muslims who will respect a lot about people who are honest and forthright, even those who we disagree with on sexual expression or behavior – but not if people want to lie about the Qur’an or hadith, that is the “main issue at hand.”

By: fatima

fatima — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:26:00 +0000

reading all these comments, i don’t even know where to start with a response…i think first and foremost, my intention with this post was not to open up discussion about whether or not islam forbids homosexuality. i know that this is the way that most discussions around the issue tend to go…but honestly, that is not the main issue at hand.the fact of the matter is that there are people who self identify as both muslim and queer…it is not up to anyone else to decide whether or not they are truly either of those things.my post was meant to stir up discussion about what kinds of community these people can rely on…is it the mainstream lgbt community? no, because that is primarily white. is it the muslim community? no, because there are so many muslims who refuse to accept that gay muslims exist and forbid their existence altogether. so where does that leave them? where can they find support?(also, i apologize for not posting logistical things like the links to the other parts of the documentary! i think this was a result of my apparently justified nervousness about posting on this subject at all…thanks for your understanding! and also, i haven’t seen any responses regarding the actual documentary…what did you guys think?)

By: I need my Sisters, where are You?

I need my Sisters, where are You? — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:28:00 +0000

Ladies and gentlemen, Forgive me; I hate to interrupt such an interesting debate. However, Jonathan Kay recently wrote an important article about Muslims and free speech, and homosexuality plays a part in it. So in a way it’s relevant to this topic. I’m sorry if it’s too long. We have all heard of Muslim Canadians taking journalist to the Human Rights Court because of “certain” free speech that they find offensive right? “The other panellists you’ve heard from take it from granted that Muslims will benefit from censorship imposed in the name of free speech- because it will protect your community from Islamophobia. I like to challenge that assumption.”… It is only a matter of time before human rights censors come after Muslims. Like the Bible, Muslim scripture contains a lot of material that, by modern standards would be considered sexist, homophobic or even anti-Semitic…. Is this the sort of thing that human rights mandarins will someday judge as “likely to expose a person or persons to hatred or contempt. … The prospect of a human rights tribunal telling you which Suras and Hadiths you are and aren’t allowed to preach in our mosques may sound ridiculous. But it’s not. A few months ago, an Alberta pastor named Stephen Boissoin was slapped down by a human rights tribunal for the crime of proselytizing his socially conservative Christian attitudes toward homosexuality. As part of the judgment against him, he is now legally forbidden from commenting on matters of sexual orientation-even in his sermons. … Human rights mandarins haven’t gone after mosques and mullahs-yet.”Basically, like the title it further states “Canada’s Islamic community has nothing to gain by allying itself with human rights censors” by Jonathan Kay. What Muslims decided to file a complaint against free speech to the human rights bureau and what are they thinking? And this isn’t the only church that has been denied the right to denounce homosexuality because it offends others. So… it feels like we’re trapped in quick sand, thanks to some Muslims who believe they are the only ones that can be offended by free-speech. How pathetic, we’re sinking Help!But the article has a good ending, he concludes by stating, “This country is home to hundreds of thousands of Muslims who participate actively in our democratic process, and in the open marketplace of ideas that is its lifeblood. If you want to fight Islamophobia, let this be the image cemented in Canadians’ minds- not that of eggshell-skinned censors working in league with government thought police.” So will Muslims be prohibited to denounce homosexuality in the Mosques because of other Muslims pushing the idea of human rights censors? Stop going to the human rights censor over articles and cartoons. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

By: Mayhem

Mayhem — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:51:00 +0000

Thank you for posting this. I had been looking for this documentary for a while, and was happy to see it posted on YouTube. It should go out as wide as possible. A Jihad For Love is another must-see.The director of the latter, Parvez Sharma, recently gave an excellent interview with Now Toronto:http://www.nowtoronto.com/movies/story.cfm?content=163996While I am tempted to engage in the debates currently going on in the comments subject by responding to specific posts, I will only say:It is my understanding that there was a time in history when the Muslim world was thought of by Western European Christians are too soft of issues of sexual morality. Victorians invented a whole host of social constructs (including the term “homosexual”) intended to marginalize what were perceived to be deviant sexual practices. We have since turned on our own history to replicate a Western Christian understanding of homosexuality. The irony, right?Also, Islam is a timeless religion in many ways, yes, yet so much of the jurisprudence revolves around issues specific to the Arab culture of the time – population, health and economic concerns needed to be addressed as a matter of practicality, and Islam is a very practical religion. Should we now be looking to pretend that everything exists outside of a particular social context? It doesn’t make sense.

By: jamericanmuslimah

jamericanmuslimah — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:03:00 +0000

duniya,I’m sorry but I think that’s stretching the interpretation…homosexuality has been forbidden in every major religion. However, it is the people who have tried to reinterpret the scriptures to their favor. Again, where is the moral standard? What about the fact that Islam will require an individual to abstain from certain things or give up certain things eventually? It’s part of the religious experience and it’s also part of our test as human beings. I think it’s one thing to struggle in order to implement certain teachings into your lifestyle and it’s another to try and twist the teachings to suit your own needs. Where is the spiritual growth if every person can leave off what doesn’t suit them or reinterpret teachings so that it justifies their behavior?

By: Jana

Jana — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:03:00 +0000

Duniya: The story of Lut is not the only reference to homosexual acts. If they were permissible, then why would the Prophet (saw) prohobit two men or two women from sleeping under the same blanket??Aside from that, since any sexual acts outside of marriage are strictly forbidden, then how on Earth can ‘consensual homosexual acts’ be permissible?Whether you like it or not, whether it’s PC or not, whether it ‘nice’ or not, it is as clear as day to anyone that these acts are haraam. The simple fact that ‘different interpretations’ exist (and just who exactly has put forward this version?) does not mean that they are all valid., especially when they blatanty contradict other teachings!