cartoon: a measured distance

welcoming1

About David Hayward

David Hayward runs the blog nakedpastor as a graffiti artist on the walls of religion where he critiques religion… specifically Christianity and the church. He also runs the online community The Lasting Supper where people can help themselves discover, explore and live in spiritual freedom.

  • Caroline

    Heh.

    So true!

  • http://rayanselmo.wordpress.com Ray the Recovering Cynic

    I dunno – I’m hetero, and that’s how I get treated at a lot of congregations …

  • http://www.crackedvirtue.com Brianmpei

    Wait, are those his gay friends back there or have they left him as well?

  • fishon

    Interesting that you should put it that way.
    We readly welcome then to our worship services, but I will be hanged, if I happen to preach on the sin of practicing homosexuality, they up and leave and say they were not welcome. Oh, but they were welcome.

    Kind of like when a couple who is living together are quite welcome to attend services, but when the subject of fornication comes up in a sermon, off they go to tell people we are not friendly and we are judgemental.

    Then there is the lady who attended for months, but left in a huff from such an unfriendly bunch because I preached Jesus was God.

    I bet the pedophiles in Jesus day thought him unfriendly and unwelcoming when he warned about harming a child.

    Darn it. Try as we might we just can not keep everybody happy and feeling welcome and preach “repentance” from….
    fishon

  • Boethius

    Fishon: Keep preaching the truth!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Fishon,

    It is just an awful shame that many of these folks just can’t stand to hear about their sin.

    So they (many of them) engage in all out war to try and force us into believing that what (whatever it is) they are doing is just fine. In fact, it is so fine and good that the government should redefine the laws in order that society be changed to accomodate them.

    They are as welcome in my church as I am or any other sinner. But when they flaunt or try and promote their sin, they are asked to leave… as I would be.

    Why can’t we have an ‘anything goes church’? Because our God says that ‘anything does not go’…that’s why.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    And that’s why some call it,”Iron Age Religion”

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Some, always will.

    Trust in God and the Bible is not something that is wildly popular. It never has been and never will be.

  • fishon

    faithlessinfatima said, on April 7th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
    And that’s why some call it,”Iron Age Religion”
    ———-Aha, but because they say it does not mean it true.
    ———-Some have said, God is dead, but they have yet to show me His grave.
    fishon

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Some have said, God is dead, but they have yet to show me His grave(fishon)

    Tell you what, why dont you show me the “real” body of Jesus in the flesh. Rather than the version in your mind.

  • http://societyvs.wordpress.com/ societyvs

    I just heard fishon talking about preaching homosexuality as a sin – which is his perogative (and he will say it is the bible’s viewpoint). I am not so sure about that – after speaking with Jewish people on the doctrinal viewpoint from Tanakh on this. This is under some discussion – but rabbi’s do marry and invite gay couples into their communities – so for me (at the least) – using the bible (namely the Tanakh) as some basis for a statement like ‘homosexuality is a sin’ might be ‘out of order’.

    Now if we are saying this is an NT directive – from the works of Paul – fine – that kind of info is in there (and is also very debateable). But I can see where Fishon could find the ‘sin’ aspect.

    As for couples living together, and not married and having sexual relations, how that is a sin is quite beyond me. Where in scripture is this directive laid down? What I read is 2 become 1 – that says nothing about living together or what have you – but about the act itself (2 people becoming 1). This is is not sinful but is expected to be in 2 people that want to be a ‘single unit’…not a ‘couple units’ (our wording on this is really backwards). The intention in that passage is that 2 become 1 – in the sense – of physical – but also concerning their personal concern for one another (as they would care for themselves type thing – the other is this close).

    Also common-law laws also provide a basis for a type of marriage (living 3 months together) – so even couples living together, without the marriage certfiicate, are actually a union.

    Irregardless of all my mumbo jumbo – gay people need to be more welcomed in loving communities – provided this is what a church is looking to offer them…love – which at it s heart – is communal.

  • fishon

    Sorry TforT,
    I asked first.
    Trying to answer a statement that is meant as a question with a question, ah, come on now, you can do better than that.

    Besides, when did I ever say Jesus is here in the flesh??

    You might consult Rev. Moon. He will show you Jesus in the flesh. Or maybe Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda. But I really don’t think you are searching for Jesus—you are just trying to throw me off my statement/question———-cause you don’t know what you believe——–and it is evident, you don’t know what a true Christ-follower believes. You see, TforT, the Bible tells us Jesus is not living upon this earth, now.

    Oops, maybe you do know what the Bible say about where Jesus is at this moment, and you were trying to trick me. You silly fellow.
    fishon

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Church’s have rules just like any other community.

    Why in God’s name should a church HAVE TO keep people that not only will not keep the rules, but want to CHANGE THE RULES?

    The church welcomes all sinners who do not flaunt their sin or advocate it.

    Gays should not get a special pass.

    We had a gay man in our congregation for several years. He never made an issue of his sexuality. There was no problem.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    I wonder why some Christians who are totally immersed in the world of applied ‘physical or natural science’ have such deep -seated fears when the subject of ‘human or social sciences’ arises? Do they really think that the fields of anthropology,sociology and psychology have nothing to add or inform us pertaining to the question of what and how a human being and their sexuality is defined? Where wd they go if their child was autistic….Leviticus or a doctor?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    I don’t fear the topic of homosexuality.

    But I do know that the behavior is stated to be a sinful act in scripture.

    Anyone with a just a hint of common sense can see that the male and female bodies were designed to act together sexually, and not two of the same.

    I find it odd that so many of the intellectual elite in our colleges and universities make the claim that men and women are basically “the same”.

    A 3rd grader can make the observation to the contrary without too much trouble.

    What the so-called experts lack is a modicum of common sense and a belief (many of them) in a God who created the world.

    “Claiming to be wise they have become fools.”

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Steve..I didn’t say that was yr fear,but the science that cd inform and enlighten yr thinking. If I lived in first century Palestine,and was trained to be a Pharisee ,I probably wd think like Paul. But, fortunately, I’m able to access so much more information on human biology,homosexuality in other species,the science of genetics ,etc. to help me understand the wider and more complete modern view of the phenomenom. That is,if I’m able to use the accepted tools of critical thought ;reason,logic and common sense rather than a narrow obstinate doctrine of scripture that keeps my thinking in the Iron Age. It appears Paul taught that Jesus wd soon return in his lifetime…he’s human,he’s allowed to be wrong.

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon: to compare gays to pedophiles is quite a leap. Pedophilia is harmful. It hurts people. And it is criminal.

  • amy

    Don’t you dare compare my gay friends to the same person who hurt me as a child, something I will never get over. Shame on you.

  • fishon

    Society said: I just heard fishon talking about preaching homosexuality as a sin – which is his perogative (and he will say it is the bible’s viewpoint). I am not so sure about that
    —–Ok, you are not sure——I am.

    I am not so sure about that – after speaking with Jewish people on the doctrinal viewpoint from Tanakh on this.
    —– The prevalent view among Jews had been to regard homosexual intercourse as sinful, arguing that it is categorically forbidden by the Torah. This remains the current view of Orthodox Judaism, but not of Reconstructionist Judaism and Reform Judaism. Conservative Judaism’s Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, which until December 2006 held the same position as Orthodoxy. {From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia}.
    —–Just because a few, so-called moderns say it ain’t so, doesn’t make it so.

    Now if we are saying this is an NT directive – from the works of Paul – fine – that kind of info is in there (and is also very debateable).
    —–No, it is not VERY debatable—there are but a few who say it is debatable. There are still a few who debate as to whether man really did land on the moon. Always going to be someone argue.

    As for couples living together, and not married and having sexual relations, how that is a sin is quite beyond me. Where in scripture is this directive laid down?
    —–Since you are so into Jewishness——- Rabbi Lerner says, Cohabiting couples / pre-marital sex violates Jewish law – from the laws of modesty through all laws of sexual relations.

    Irregardless of all my mumbo jumbo – gay people need to be more welcomed in loving communities
    —–I don’t know what you mean by “more welcome.
    —–But I will repeat, they are welcome in the church I pastor, but when I preach on the sin of practicing homosexuality they leave and accuse me/us of being haters. They not only want to be excepted, but for us to except their sinful practice. There choice to leave.

    Society, I sense a little ‘christaphobia’ in you.
    fishon

  • fishon

    faithlessinfatima said, on April 7th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
    have such deep -seated fears

    ——”Deep-seated fears.” That is a typical arguement from a “don’t have much evidence” debater.

    Do they really think that the fields of anthropology,sociology and psychology have nothing to add or inform us pertaining to the question of what and how a human being and their sexuality is defined?
    ——Let’s care your arguement out futher.
    Thought science has NOT come to any conclusion as to whether homosexuality is genetical disposed—-let’s say they do. Does that negate the clear teaches of the Bible about the sin of practicing homosexuality?? If you say yes—they what do you say when science discovers that 28% percent of men are genetically pre-desposed to want to have sex with children——do you now say–”Ok,” it is science. Same principle any way you slice it.
    fishon

  • http://bible.cc Semety

    we’re genetically predisposed to sin.. but we can fight against that.

    even though homosexuality is a sin, it’s not the same as pedophilia. it’s not abuse. it’s a perversion of the body, like getting drunk or hurting yourself. It’s defacing the picture of God so to speak, but it doesn’t damage anyone else.

    then again, i don’t see a lie as being as bad as murder.

    but if he can forgive us, then why can’t he forgive everybody the same way? and if other people are in hell, then what can we do? go out and preach. turn and trust. repent and believe..

    i’m going to hell anyways. i just hope more people don’t.

  • fishon

    nakedpastor said, on April 7th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
    fishon: to compare gays to pedophiles is quite a leap. Pedophilia is harmful. It hurts people. And it is criminal

    —–To compare envy to idolatry might be considered quite a leap too, but Paul did.
    Seems as if you are trying to insinuate that practicing homosexuality is not on the same level of sin as pedophilia. Ah, but don’t not both unrepented send the practicer to hell? Harmful! You are looking at it from man’s point of view, not God’s. For God makes it clear in Epehsians a “…greedy person…” “has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.” Quite a leap from “greedy” to “pedophilia,” wouldn’t you say?

    —–Personally, whether something is made criminal or not by society has NO bearing on whether I view an offense as sin or not. I will go with the Word of God first and foremost.

    Abortion use to be criminal.
    Many kinds of porn use to be criminal.
    Praying in certain places in NOW criminal.
    Speaking against or, if I understand correctly–to say certain things about Islam is
    NOW criminal in your own country.

    —–Not quite a leap: God makes it clear both are sin.

    —–The Medical Institute of Sexual Health reported in 1999 that “Homosexual men are at significantly increased risk of HIV/AIDS, hepatitis, anal cancer, gonorrhea and gastrointestinal infections as a result of their sexual practices.”
    - “Women who have intercourse with women are at significantly increased risk of bacterial vaginosis, breast cancer and ovarian cancer than are heterosexual women.”
    - “Significantly higher percentages of homosexual men and women abuse drugs, alcohol and tobacco than do heterosexuals.” It seems that there is a correlation between the choice to pursue homosexuality and the choice to pursue other self-destructive behaviors as well, since the initial barriers of rational and moral restraint to the deleterious undertakings of those individuals have fallen. ARGUE WITH The MIofSH. SEEMS AS IF SOME HARMFUL STUFF HERE.

    ——And from the bastin of Christianity–NOT———-Oxford University’s International Journal of Epidemiology reports: “Life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality continues, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 will not reach their 65th birthday.” ARGUE WITH OXFORD——-SEEMS HARMFUL TO ME.
    fishon

  • fishon

    Semety said, on April 7th, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    even though homosexuality is a sin, it’s not the same as pedophilia. it’s not abuse. it’s a perversion of the body, like getting drunk or hurting yourself. It’s defacing the picture of God so to speak, but it doesn’t damage anyone else.

    —–”getting drunk…doesn’t damage anyone eles.” Did I read you right? Surely I didn’t?
    —–If that is what you meant, then you might ask my wife if she wasn’t hurt by my drunkedness for the 1st 13 years of our marriage.

    —–You might ask the sisters of the man my brother killed running a red light drunk out of his mind if it hurt anyone. Got to ask the sisters case the man can’t speak for himself.

    —–Man, I could go on, but surely I misunderstood you. Tell me it is so.
    fishon

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    fishon

    You go man, youre for sure going to convert lots of people here with your incessant showing of the Love of Christ. I am lost and you sure have shown me the way, far far from Christ lovers such as yourself.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Encouraging kids to become “gay” doesn’t hurt anyone, right? Wrong.

    That’s right human sexuality is not fixed (especially with young women), and societies that encourage it, get a lot more of it.

    It tears apart families. It deprives kids of a mother and a father in gay relationships that adopt.

    It (the gay lobby) has already done a lot of damage in states where they have managed to have the terms mommy and daddy, husband and wife, etc. taken out of school text books and govt. forms, etc.

    As usual the left just tears down what is good and decent and builds up nothing good to replace it.

    Having seen first hand what the so-called tolerant gay community did out here in Calif, after our recent vote on gay marriage, I would have to say that they are not tolerant, nor law abiding, nor decent in so many cases where they attempted to destroy people’s livlihoods for voting a particular way.

    Not harmful. Right.

  • fishon

    TitforTat said, on April 7th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
    fishon

    You go man, youre for sure going to convert lots of people here with your incessant showing of the Love of Christ. I am lost and you sure have shown me the way, far far from Christ lovers such as yourself.

    —–Give me a break. You aren’t on here looking for salvation. Any time a Bible believe says anything biblically, you attack.

    I am not looking to convert anyone—I will leave that to the Holy Spirit.

    Your idea of love is deadly.

    And, I haven’t driven you one step farther away from Christ than the first time you read anything I said.

    You say, “I am lost and you sure have shown me the way, far far from Christ lovers such as yourself.”
    —–So little old me has that affect on you? Gee, I would think that all the other nice Christians who don’t believe what I believe; who are gentle with you; who show love to you; who are in agreement with much of what you say——well, I am surprised that a smart fellow like you would let one bigot like me move you more that they would. Wow! I didn’t realize that I was that powerful with words. And I am surprised that someone you don’t know personally would be able to sway you that much. I just didn’t realize that “you [me] sure have shown me the way, far far from Christ lovers such as yourself,” was that influential.

    You know what TforT, man-up and just admit you don’t want anything to do with Christ and you use people like me as an excuse. It doesn’t fly with me, and I am sure won’t with the Lord when you meet Him face to face——and you will.
    fishon

  • http://www.rockinthegrass.blogspot.com Pete Grassow

    The sarcasm and backbiting are difficult to reconcile with what I would expect from Jesus-followers. I also am puzzled why three people want to dominate this site – why not use e-mail to have your little spat?

    Thankyou NP for the drawing – it is an appropriate reminder of how people can feel alienated by our religious prejudices.

  • Kim

    I love how those condemning can always point at the others – ‘their’ sin is always worth pointing at. There is no hierarchy of sin. We are all sinners, fallen short, even if we think we are so much squeakier and cleaner than all of ‘them’. I don’t doubt that there should be preaching about sin, but I think an ounce of love shown to someone will do more to convict them, by the power of the holy spirit, of their sin, than all the vitriol and finger pointing and fiery pits of hell sermons will ever do.

    Are preachers exempted from looking at the plank in their own eye?

    Most of us want everythng to do with Christ, but nothing to do with this religion that so many have drummed up in his place.

  • Caroline

    Goodness me.

    As a gay woman, just reading through some of these comments makes me feel exactly like the person in David’s cartoon.

    And as a Christian, I am so tired of hearing discussions like this. It is relentless.

    It’s such a shame that so many of us have made up our minds on this subject, without considering the possibilities of other interpretations of scripture, mistranslations, and misunderstandings. I totally believe the Bible, but you have to consider these things in these sorts of topics. Look at what the original texts say, think about the meanings and possible differences. It has to be taken in context.

    I spent many, many years agonising over this, and having looked into it thoroughly my opinions have changed. Not because I’ve talked myself into it, but because I can see that things are not as clear cut as they might originally seem.

    I really don’t understand why this has to be such an issue, or why it has to be an issue at all. My sexuality is a very small part of me, though it is STILL a part. And hearing some of the things that have been said here, hurts.

    It’s a good job that I *know* how much God loves me. That I know He made me this way. That I know I am perfect in His eyes. And that I know nothing else matters.

    Open your minds.

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    Caroline:
    I know. It isn’t a joke. I knew this would stir up debate and expose the very attitude this cartoon tries to portray.

  • joni

    As a Christian I am soo saddened by what I’m reading here. Wow. May God truly reach out to each of us right where we are and may we be willing to fully embrace who HE is.. because I do not see Him in some of the words here. Fishon, I pray that the Lord bless you.

    As a lesbian, I really don’t care what your thoughts are regarding who I love.

    David, great cartoon.. depicts a lot of truth. Ah may we truly be like Jesus and love first.. always. Regardless of our differences, because there are many.

  • http://www.idennis.co.uk dennisthemennis

    Well said Caroline, I didnt know how to respond to such comments and until I read your comment -

    It’s a good job that I *know* how much God loves me. That I know He made me this way. That I know I am perfect in His eyes. And that I know nothing else matters.

    You are so right! I am not gay but if I had to choose between being ignorant or gay I know which I would choose but as I am guessing its not a choice its a way of life then I feel rather fortunate. I would be the one standing with the gay man or girl simply because thats where my only hero would be stood, with you.

    god forgive us for alienating, isolating and driving your people underground.

  • joni

    Now that I’ve gone back and read some of the ridiculous ramblings here… I’m shocked. Almost ashamed to call myself a Christian if others would even possibly think that I might think the way some of you do. Wow!!!

    Pedophile?? ooh please.

    Children need to be with a mother and father?? do you know how many families with straight parents do NOT have a father and a mother?? what a crazy thing to say. Have you asked a child WITHOUT a family if they would like to not be adopted rather than have two parents who love them fully but are of the same sex. Please… give your head a shake for that comment. How narrow minded!!

    Ya’ll make me just shake my head. My first comment I was just sad, thinking how lost some of you truly are in your thinking… after actually reading more of the comments, I’m just appalled.

    I agree with TitforTat when he/she said “you sure have shown me the way, far far from Christ lovers such as yourself.”

  • Savvy

    I find it bizarre that people who always have something to say against these cartoons hang around so relentlessly. Are ye viewing this as your mission ground?

    I am curious if you would address obese members of your congregation with the same intensity when making them aware of their obvious sin of gluttony while over a third of the worlds population starves. Mostly children. Ye speak of wanting to protect those children, after all – or is that just from the threat of gays?

    To the individual who commented that they have a gay member but that his homosexuality is discreetly ignored, I wonder how that man feels about the fact that to be a member of your community he must keep that part of him silent. I also wonder if it matters at all that if we all showed exactly who we are under our discretion, we would ALL be asked to leave our churches. Some things are just a hell of a lot easier to point at and say WAHEY! YOU SINNER! QUIT FLAUNTING!

    I’ve had people behave this way to me over me divorcing. They know none of the details but had all of the answers and Gods wisdom. I have never been so disgusted by the way I was treated by people who professed to love me. I cannot fathom having to deal with it as often as gay people do.

    You’ve got your priorities all backwards so far up your arses they’ll never see the light of day, let alone common sense, decency and the love of Christ. But hey! You protected the masses from the gay threat.

    (Sorry for hijacking David… drives me demented. *Hugs*)

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    You know what TforT, man-up and just admit you don’t want anything to do with Christ and you use people like me as an excuse. (fishon)

    Funny thing, David is a preacher too. I quite like the way he talks about Jesus. In fact, when I read the bible, Davids message seems a lot closer to Jesus than yours does. You in fact sound much more like Paul. Jesus or Paul hmmm, who would I rather hear? Love or Law………

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    This is a shame. I have some genuine struggles with how to approach this issue. But I’ve never found a place where the tensions can be fully explored before someone comes along and pigeonholes my uncertainty with their version of “Thus saith…” Nevertheless, I have a couple thoughts:

    I don’t like the way we absolve ourselves of responsibility by saying, “I’m preaching the TRUTH. They just don’t want to deal with it.”

    Yet, I do see the scriptural difficulties with homosexuality (and gluttony, etc.). Thing is, as an overweight person, I don’t consider my gluttony to be ok, and I’m trying to get a handle on it. So the analogy breaks down a little… except that, if some dickweed stood in a pulpit and called me an abomination, I’d likely show him my fat ass on the way out the door.

    The TRUTH is, Jesus loves us (gays AND gluttons) enough that he went to a pretty dire extreme to make a relationship possible. Aren’t we (metaphorically, if not literally) called to a similar sacrifice for the sake of every other human? I think churches have allowed preaching to replace the role of relationship in the redemptive process.

    To those who love to quote the TRUTH in support of their condemnation of others, that same scripture says this, too: LOVE conquers ALL.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    If a glutton says, ” I can eat all I want and it’s nobody’s business, screw you, God made me this way, it’s nor a sin” ..there is no problem with their gluttony and they are advocating gluttony…my pastor would ask them to leave.

    If a gay person comes to church with their lover and holds hands with them and introduces them as “my lover”….that is a problem. It shows no sorrow for sin, no humility in the face of their sin (yes, Virginia, it is a sin). And it leads others to believe that flaunting sin, any sin is alright. It is not, because it leads a person away from the life of faith, which is repentance and forgiveness.

    Repentance meaning at least being sorrowful (within their own heart if not actaully confessing their in to another) that they are sinning.

    It has nothing to do with anyone being better than anyone else. We’ve all got sin hanging around our necks and move into and out of particular sins while ‘sin’ is with us all…always.

  • Jo Robertson

    These kind of judgemental attitudes are probably one of the reasons why I no longer attend a church. I had no idea how narrow minded my thinking had become until I stepped out the church mindset and saw that the world is a much broader place, where you cannot judge or pigeon-hole people as i had become accustomed. I no longer think that I have the right to say whether people are saved not saved sinners or saints. I still have a faith but I find it harder and harder to find an expression of what I believe that feels right. Dave I hope you know that my comments here are not directed towards you, I have always found your approach one that is refreshing, as is your drawing.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    I’ve seen many comments here(and in other similar posts) from many that no longer attend church because of some perceived slight or unwarranted attacks upon a certain group.

    If that is the case, you need not worry any longer, because there are PLENTY of churches these days where anything goes. Yes, anything.

    You could walk into just about any UCC, ELCA, PCUSA, and be doing anything with just about anyone and you will never hear ‘boo’, because they have thrown the law of God completely out the window.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    I’m a member of an ELCA church by the way (that hasn’t thrown God’s law out the window).

  • Caroline

    Steve, to ask anyone to leave a church, regardless of who they are or what they have done, is very un Jesus-like. Don’t you think?

    To compare gay people and gluttons is just ridiculous. Nobody is born a glutton.

    I think the problem lies with whether we define LGBT relationships as sin. You clearly do, and I do not.

    If I do not then why would I repent? Why would I repent for something which I do not believe is a sin?

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    “If a glutton says, ‘I can eat all I want and it’s nobody’s business, screw you, God made me this way, it’s nor a sin’ ..there is no problem with their gluttony and they are advocating gluttony…my pastor would ask them to leave.”

    Steve, I’m not sure I understand. What about the 400 lb. person who never says a word, who just wants to be part of the fellowship? The result of his ‘sin’ is evident to all, and he is clearly unrepentant. Would you remove him from the church?

  • Jo Robertson

    …..although I have to ask, after looking again at the cartoon why have most of us jumped to the conclusion that this is a church setting? Surely all levels of society have their own groups and prejudices against other types of people who don’t fit into the same mould. Although I ramble on about not judging (or caring) whether people are sinners or not, I most certainly do judge people in many other ways and in many other settings. People who’s appearance or lifestyle doesn’t quite fit comfortably with mine…..so maybe looking more inwardly is the key to this lesson?

  • Brett

    (wince) My gay friends *and me*. :-P

    But the rebuke still stings.

  • Matt

    I don’t understand “gay”.

    I don’t understand why “gay” (and sexual issues in general) are of such significance in the church.

    And I don’t think I really have any answers to most of the questions above.

    But one thing I know for sure: when I’m talking to Jesus, I’m in *exactly* the same place as someone who is “gay” – we are both terribly broken, works in progress, who will only know total fulfilment and wholeness when we see him face to face.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Steve

    If Jesus is so powerful in his Love for all, why do you need the Law so badly? Could it be that you doubt that Love is enough?

  • robin

    I am little late jumping into this conversation. Scot McKnight has some suggestions about how this issue should be discussed on his blog. I think it’s worth checking out. We need to learn to dialogue about issues like these with civility and respect. We need to learn to disagree well.

    http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2009/04/a-letter-my-response.html#more

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    To the woman caught in adultery, Jesus doesn’t just say, “you can go now.”

    He says, “go and sin no more.”

    How in the world are you ever going to create a repentant heart in a sinner if you don’t call them on their sin, if only corporately?

    God’s law must be preached from the pulpit to create sorrowful hearts that are in need of a Savior.

    The 400 lb person does not tell people, or deny to people that overeating is not a sin. Many gay people believe that they are not sinning. They are wrong.

    A gay person can be in my church as long as they WANT TO BE. They just cannot make an issue of their sexuality. We DO NOT LET STRAIGHT PEOPLE DO SO EITHER.

    Amongst many gays there is no humility and they have an in your face militantancy.

    That is the problem.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Thanks for the link, Robin. I’ll check it out.

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    So your problem isn’t with the sin. It’s with defending it. Is that what you’re saying?

  • Caroline

    “Amongst many gays there is no humility and they have an in your face militantancy”.

    I could say the same for you, Steve.

    “Many gay people believe that they are not sinning. They are wrong”.

    Who are you to say that? Do you have some kind of divine understanding of the Bible that the rest of the world does not? What exactly makes you right and me wrong?

    It is this kind of mentality that I find so disrespectful.

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    I know a lot of self-righteous people who think being right trumps being loving. If we could start with those militants, then maybe expelling all sinners from the church would be ok.

    Then, the church would be forced to disband because there would be none left, and we could start over.

  • robin

    You’re welcome, Steve.

    In response to your last comment about gays “no humility/in your face militancy” (to which I disagree)…I think we need to be careful not to paint with such a broad brush. I wonder if we should search our hearts to see if the same could be true of some of us who are straight in our sexual orientation – especially concerning this issue.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    robin,

    Of course I’m painting with a broad brush.

    I’m talking about those (and they do exist, and they are generally the leaders) in the gay community and those gays in the church that are militant.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Dorsey,

    That is exactly what I am saying.

    We all have sin, we are all not defending our sin, openly in the church.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Caroline,

    The Bible says it. I’m not making it up.

    If we choose to not believe the Bible, that is another issue, and a big one at that. Many don’t and that is fine. They just shouldn’t call themselves Christians then, that’s all.

    I’m not here to make everybody a Christian. But I will defend the standards that God has put in place for His Church.

  • Caroline

    I know what the Bible says Steve, I point you to a post I wrote earlier today…

    “It’s such a shame that so many of us have made up our minds on this subject, without considering the possibilities of other interpretations of scripture, mistranslations, and misunderstandings. I totally believe the Bible, but you have to consider these things in these sorts of topics. Look at what the original texts say, think about the meanings and possible differences. It has to be taken in context.

    I spent many, many years agonising over this, and having looked into it thoroughly my opinions have changed. Not because I’ve talked myself into it, but because I can see that things are not as clear cut as they might originally seem.”

    The Bible says a lot of other things too which people like yourself are happy to ignore. I am sure you know the verses I am talking about. This is what I mean by the Bible has to be taken both as a whole, and in context. You cannot pick and choose verses to support an argument.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    We all have standards of behavior where we live (rules). All of us.

    Is it unloving to ask people to live within those rules? I think not.

    Well, the church has rules also. I think a church with no rules is unloving. A church with no rules says in essence, we do not care enough about you to have you live according to standards that God has given us for our benefit. And we do not care if there is an active relationship between you and God characterized by repentance and forgiveness.

    Again, this is how the bible tells us that faith is created and maintained…repentance and forgiveness.

  • Caroline

    The words “brick” and “wall” spring to mind.

    I regularly repent for my sins Steve, I just do not think my sexuality happens to be one of them.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    That is your business, Caroline. It’s between you and God.

    The bible does mention sexual sin. It does exist, whether you believe it…or not.

  • http://stuffchristianculturelikes.com stephy

    People are so unwitting to their sin in judging others. That is just as sinful as anything a gay person does. We are all just as sinful as the sodomite.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Steve,,,going back a bit you said,…”I find it odd that so many of the intellectual elite in our colleges and universities make the claim that men and women are basically “the same”.

    Then what about those two circular things on yr chest….what reason wd they be there?

  • Caroline

    Steve,

    Of course I am aware of what the Bible says about sexual sin.

    But are you reading it in the right context? A lot of the times when same-sex relations are mentioned in the bible, often there are other matters which are actually being addressed, such as adultery, rape, or sexual promiscuity. NONE of them make reference to a loving, faithful relationship.

    Please take the time to have a look at this link: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/history_lessons.html

  • http://stuffchristianculturelikes.com stephy

    Bless your heart, Caroline. I’ll be your friend!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    FiF,

    It’s rare when you say something as dumb as that. That is not like you at all. :D

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    That’s funny Steve…but not an answer.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Caroline,

    Loving faithful gay relationship is fine with me. I have no problem with it. God seems to have a problem with homosexuality.

    He seems to have a problem with drunkeness as well (I don’t, in the context of someone in the privacy of their own abode)

    I do not have a problem with fornicators (two people can do what they want), but God does have a problem with it.

    Iwas a big time fornicator. I had strong sexual urges. I can say that God made me that way. I am supposed to strive to overcome my urges and live the way He intends me to live. When I fail, I ought to repent and feel sorrow and not run about bragging of conquests and giving others the impression that there is nothing wrong with it.

    It is sin and God hates sin. He doesn’t hate the sinner…He died for sinners after all…but He still hates sin.

  • Caroline

    Steve I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, clearly.

    I just find it such a shame that so much focus is put on (in my opinion) wrongly pointing the finger regarding this matter.

    It does so much more harm than good, I have been a witness to that.

    There are so many more pressing issues which we should be focussing our minds and energies on. And that is what I, for one, intend on doing.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Steve…you forgot testicle-grabbin’ women and cross-dressers…God’s not big on those types either

  • http://www.organicorthodoxy.com(itdoesn'texistyet) Kliner

    I’D JUST LIKE TO HOLLA OUT A FEW AMENS…

    [I really don’t understand why this has to be such an issue, or why it has to be an issue at all. My sexuality is a very small part of me, though it is STILL a part.]

    AMEN!

    [I have some genuine struggles with how to approach this issue. But I’ve never found a place where the tensions can be fully explored before someone comes along and pigeonholes my uncertainty with their version of “Thus saith…”]

    AMEN!

    [I also wonder if it matters at all that if we all showed exactly who we are under our discretion, we would ALL be asked to leave our churches.]

    AMEN!

    [I think churches have allowed preaching to replace the role of relationship in the redemptive process.]

    AMEN!

    [A lot of the times when same-sex relations are mentioned in the bible, often there are other matters which are actually being addressed, such as adultery, rape, or sexual promiscuity. NONE of them make reference to a loving, faithful relationship.]

    AMEN!

    As someone in PROCESS I just wonder, if the scriptures do not speak of homosexuality in the context of a loving faithful relationship, and Jesus said marriage does not exist in eternity, because within the Kingdom of God we are all equal, all human. Then maybe there is value and acceptance when any two humans, bearing the image of their Creator, join together, under God, in trinitarian analogous love?

    I don’t know, I’m just in process.

  • http://stuffchristianculturelikes.com stephy

    Yay for being in process and wrestling with issues in your life. The day you stop struggling with God is the day you’re not in relationship with him…

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Amen, Stephy!

  • http://societyvs.wordpress.com/ societyvs

    “Since you are so into Jewishness——- Rabbi Lerner says, Cohabiting couples / pre-marital sex violates Jewish law – from the laws of modesty through all laws of sexual relations.” (Fishon)

    “According to traditional Jewish law, such egalitarian ketubot (traditional wedding contract) do not create legitimate Jewish marriages, although their proponents argue that Jewish law recognizes the marriages anyway, via the “common law” route of cohabitation. (The Mishnah, an early Jewish law code, states: “A woman is acquired by money, by deed, or by intercourse,” although the Talmud expressed some disapproval of acquisition via intercourse.)” (From myJewishlearning.com – on the contract of marriage)

    “Because Jewish law effectively recognizes common-law marriage, even the most traditional communities, they assert, need to recognize these arrangements as marriage, even if a ketubah (marriage contract) is not included” (Rabbi Daniel Gordis – The Ketubah: Evolutions in the Jewish Marriage Contract)

    Rabbi Leifer (not Lerner) only stands against the idea based on the fact it does not keep in tradition or as he says “It is my conviction that change is effected through the creation of new alternative and rival Jewish rituals and halakhic forms which will ultimately effect and bring about change in the traditional forms and the traditional community” (from Grodis’ piece on Ketubah). Leifer may not even be against ‘common law’ marriages but the new avenues proposed by Reform and other movements…

    “The prevalent view among Jews had been to regard homosexual intercourse as sinful, arguing that it is categorically forbidden by the Torah. This remains the current view of Orthodox Judaism, but not of Reconstructionist Judaism and Reform Judaism. Conservative Judaism’s Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, which until December 2006 held the same position as Orthodoxy. {From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia}.” (Fishon)

    So 3 of 4 branches within Judaism do not hold to ‘homosexuality as a sin’ is basically what you are saying? The rabbi I said married gay couples was ‘conservative’. But to help clarify what fishon is saying here (see below – and he is partly right):

    “Many who seek to establish full religious rights for gays and lesbians employ the research that points to the involuntary nature of homosexuality. The halakhic (legal) term ahnoos refers to someone who, though commanded to do something, does not really have a choice in the matter. In Judaism, one is only responsible for religious obligations that one can freely choose to fulfill. Thus some Jewish authorities have argued that since homosexuality is not chosen, its expression cannot be forbidden” (MyJewishLearning – Jewish Views on Homosexuality)

    “Indeed, the Reform movement does not condemn homosexual sex, and openly gay people are eligible for admittance into Reform rabbinical schools. In addition, the Reform movement approves of rabbinic officiation at same-sex marriages and commitment ceremonies…Similarly, in Reconstructionist Judaism same-sex marriage is considered a religious value…In December 2006 the Conservative Movement’s Law Committee voted to accept two contradictory teshuvot (positions) on homosexuality in halakhah—one reaffirming the status quo, and one affirming change. The result of the vote is that rabbis, synagogues, and other Conservative institutions may choose to continue to not permit commitment ceremonies and not hire openly gay or lesbian rabbis and cantors, or may choose to do so. Both positions are considered valid.” (My Jewish Learning – Jewish Views on Homosexuality)

    Question Jewish rabbi’s are asking is ‘that since homosexuality is not chosen, should it’s expression be forbidden?’ All this with 2 of the toughest most condemning sounding texts in front of their face – Lev 18:23 and 20:13 – which means – the law is not soooo rigic as we are made to believe.

  • http://www.organicorthodoxy.com(notyet) Kliner

    appreciate your civility steve martin

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Kliner,

    And I yours. Thank you! :D

  • Boethius

    FISHON: I, for one, actually enjoy your sarcasm. I am not sure why I enjoy people who argue with sarcasm; I just do.

  • http://societyvs.wordpress.com/ societyvs

    I would like to say Caroline…ever think of converting to Judaism? (lol)

    It’s weird to me how vehement Christian denoms are about this issue without any real evidential background to build from. I just pointed out how 3 of 4 branches within Judaism (excluding orthodox – which is not the biggest branch in Judaism) are looking at those texts and arriving at conclusions concerning the rights of gay people/couples. Christianity will hold up orthodox Judaism as some ‘flag-bearer’ for real Judaism – but they aren’t – Conservative would be the biggest – closest category to deserve that title (and they allow gay marriage).

    Throw the law out and what do we get – Gentiles running around like a chicken without a head concerning texts they know little about (namely concerning interpretation). The question I saw posed made sense ‘is this a chosen lifestyle or not?’. Because if being gay is not ‘chosen’ then by ‘law’ you cannot force someone to do that with which they are not able (thus Jewish denoms changing their tune on gay marriage and rights – since 1977).

    In Christianity, we do not debate like Judaism – it’s never an ‘either/or’ thing – but more a ‘yes/no’ thing – on any and all things – no 2 ways to view something for some reason. Which leads me further to believe – did this faith really come from Judaism or just some co-opting rip off version of the ‘real article’? Where is our safe debate on such topics and reference to Judaism and it’s views when we debate issues like ‘gay marriage’? If they are the fore-runners then I think they earn a voice.

    But I am coming to believe Judaism and Christianity have nothing in similar except a few concepts (ie: messiah) – and even then – it’s so heavily skewed to make the comparisons useless. What does it mean?

    It means people like Fishon and Steve can ignore Judaic commentary on a Christian (Gentile) subject – because it really has no bearing on the wealth of knowledge Chrstianity has concerning the scriptures (including the Jewish Tanakh – written in Hebrew – an original language of Jewish people; side note – Greek was what culture’s main language?). So they can ignore this and that rabbi – no matter the denom and wealth of knowledge/study they bring to the table on a law issue like ‘gay marriage’…because Paul said so!

    Note – Jesus says nothing on gay rights or marriage – leaving this an actual gray area in the gospels. The one passage used is the ’2 become 1′ passage – and yes this seems to exclude gay couples on a physical/reproduction front – it does not exclude them in the relational aspect of that idea (2 people sharing their lives as 1).

    My apologies (and my heart goes out) to Caroline for the absolute ignorance within Christianity.

  • http://beatonho.blogspot.com/ jan

    God bless you Caroline. You are welcome in my church and as I sit holding hands with my husband of 41 years, so you would be welcome at our side holding hands with your beloved spouse.

    I have never, never understood how someone can make the Divine so small that they can actually pin down God’s ‘standards’.
    To say “I know God’s mind” brings our Creator down to our level.
    To unconditionally believe His divinely inspired words as interpreted by various well intentioned but fallible human scribes…
    And then turn around and use those words to beat a brother over the head…
    This whole concept usually leaves me speechless.
    Until today.

    I read and study many interpretations of The Bible.
    I crave to understand the mystery of God.
    I accept the LOVE offered by Jesus Christ and in my fallible human interpretation – that love is for all.
    Thanks David, I have followed your blog for a couple of years now but this argument is the first to make me speak :)

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  • fishon

    nakedpastor said, on April 8th, 2009 at 6:28 am
    Caroline:
    I know. It isn’t a joke. I knew this would stir up debate and expose the very attitude this cartoon tries to portray.

    ——Wow! You who pride yourself on tolerance and developing a genuine loving community purposely try and stir up debate as you admit you knew it would. Unbelievable. Is that why you have people leave your church; stirring up debates and trying to expose attitudes?

    ——You are a phoney, David. You knowingly stir up debate then take on the very ones you stir up. Yes sir, that is the peacemaker in you, isn’t it?

    ——You are no different than the people who make cartoons about the Muslims in Europe, then cry about the fact that they get mad about it. While all along they and you know you will illicit reactions. Yep, peacemaker, that’s you.

    ——Then there is the fact that you knowingly stir up debate, knowing that we who will be drawn out will, by are defensive of biblical integrity, will say things that others will say hurt them deeply. Peacemaker, that is you all right.

    ——Aha, and you knew this would expose the very attitude the cartoon is to display. So it is your job to hunt down and expose people who have my attitude. Peacemaker.

    ——Well, you accomplished what you wanted. You EXPOSED me, but then you already knew my position—maybe you were trying to draw others out and expose them? Oh, yea, I forget, you are the consummate peacemakere.

    ——And lastly, you purposely stir up debate and expose me——-your choir rings in with discussed for me and my position———-yes sir, you are the peacemaker.
    fishon
    —–Don’t even bother to reply—–it will be a load of crap.

  • fishon

    TitforTat said, on April 8th, 2009 at 7:51 am
    You know what TforT, man-up and just admit you don’t want anything to do with Christ and you use people like me as an excuse. (fishon)

    Funny thing, David is a preacher too. I quite like the way he talks about Jesus. In fact, when I read the bible, Davids message seems a lot closer to Jesus than yours does. You in fact sound much more like Paul. Jesus or Paul hmmm, who would I rather hear? Love or Law………

    ————HEY PREACHER DAVID. Good one for you. TforT thinks so highly of you—you tell him which one JESUS OR PAUL.
    fishon

  • fishon

    steve martin said, on April 8th, 2009 at 8:26 am
    I’ve seen many comments here(and in other similar posts) from many that no longer attend church because of some perceived slight or unwarranted attacks upon a certain group.

    If that is the case, you need not worry any longer, because there are PLENTY of churches these days where anything goes. Yes, anything.

    You could walk into just about any UCC, ELCA, PCUSA, and be doing anything with just about anyone and you will never hear ‘boo’, because they have thrown the law of God completely out the window.

    ——-Absolutly, Steve. I sure would like to hear some of the—–”Oh those bad Christians, where can I go for comfort and worship?” give an excuse for not attending some of those you pointed out.
    fishon

  • fishon

    Caroline said, on April 8th, 2009 at 8:28 am
    Steve, to ask anyone to leave a church, regardless of who they are or what they have done, is very un Jesus-like. Don’t you think?
    ——I guess you throw out 1 Cor. 5 out of the Bible——-If you believe like TforT Paul is not an inspired author of part of the Bible, then I guess you would.
    fishon

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon: we all do things knowing it will cause a certain reaction. that’s life. is it not? i’d be a sociopath not to be able to have some sense of the consequences of my actions. it’s no secret that i disagree with an attitude that would judge homosexuals (and their private behavior) and prevent them from full participation in the beloved community. i have every right and every responsibility to challenge that. i must expose the injustice of that attitude, and this cartoon was successful in doing it, apparently. this cartoon has exposed some real ugliness that has caused incredible harm to countless numbers.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Fishon,

    None of this suprises me in the least. I’d be willing to bet that it does not suprise you either.

    People do not want God on His terms, but rather their own. Idolatry is the default position of mankind. (Oops sorry…humankind – you really have to watch your step here or people go berserk)

    Bashing “old fashioned Christians” who actually believe what the Bible says seems to a lot of fun for the ‘tolerant left’. Instead of starting their own organizations…they would much rather destroy existing ones.

  • fishon

    faithlessinfatima said, on April 8th, 2009 at 10:10 am
    Steve,,,going back a bit you said,…”I find it odd that so many of the intellectual elite in our colleges and universities make the claim that men and women are basically “the same”.

    Then what about those two circular things on yr chest….what reason wd they be there?

    ———-That is absolutely the stupidest thing I have read in days. FinF, check between a man and a women’s legs—–there you will notice the diff.
    fishon

  • http://stuffchristianculturelikes.com stephy

    Fishon sure is acting douchey.

  • fishon

    Boethius said, on April 8th, 2009 at 11:55 am
    FISHON: I, for one, actually enjoy your sarcasm. I am not sure why I enjoy people who argue with sarcasm; I just do.

    ——Glad you enjoy it. However, though I sometimes work at sarcasm I can’t take credit for it being a talent. I write poorly, and do not always say what I mean [wait a minute, I do say what I mean, it just makes people mad].

    ——You know Boethius, I think many of these folks who take real offense to me take themselves to seriously. They speak of love and tolerance, but truth be known, they would stone me in a minute if they could. Ah, I can hear the denials now.

    ——But I on the other hand live out love and tolerance. There is within my church, drunks, ex-cons [meth cookers---a pedophile---etc.], adulters, and who knows what else. Oh, by the way–I told the church if they didn’t allow the repentant pedophile to attend church look for another pastor. I wonder how many fishon stone throwers would allow a repentant pedophile possible ruin their ministry?

    fishon

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    LMAO……………Oh my condolences to fishon and Steve……..They came to the Liberal website hoping their message of Conservatism was heard. Surprise, Surprise.

    People do not want God on His terms, but rather their own(Steve)

    You cant be serious, are you suggesting that you dont read scripture with your own eyes and your own terms? If you wish to be part of Steve’s Church, Just fake it so you can fit in.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    check between a man and a women’s legs—–there you will notice the diff.(fishon)

    What if they are a Hermaphrodite?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Fishon,

    God bless you! You are the kind of pastor that I would want (and that I have by the way)

    All sinners are welcome in the church. That is who the church IS FOR, for cryin’ out loud!

    But those that believe their sin, is not really a sin…are not hearing God’s law and maybe ought go out into the world and let that law crush them for awhile…then maybe they will be ready to hear God’s law and His gospel and live the Christian life of repentance and forgiveness.

    Keep up the good work, my friend!

    – Steve

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    TfT,

    We don’t need to fake anything. We can openly confess our sin, or confess to the pastor, or confess to one another, or confess to God…or all of the above.

    We are honest about our need of forgiveness. That is real. That is down to earth, not living in denial reality.

    That you don’t believe it is no sweat of my nose.

    You can do whatever you darn well please. Who gives a rodent’s derriere?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    What if they are a zebra?

    Huh??

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Steve

    But in your own admission, the sinner is only welcome if they repent and stop their behaviour. You have made that abundantly clear. So tell me, if I was to repent of my sexual exploits Sunday and return to them on monday and come back on Sunday and repent and continue that process would you still welcome me?

  • fishon

    nakedpastor said, on April 8th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
    fishon: we all do things knowing it will cause a certain reaction. that’s life. is it not? i’d be a sociopath not to be able to have some sense of the consequences of my actions. it’s no secret that i disagree with an attitude that would judge homosexuals (and their private behavior) and prevent them from full participation in the beloved community.

    ——-What does private behavior have to do with anything when it comes to sin???
    David and Bathsheba’s sin was quite private until David messed it up with murder.
    I suppose you believe that God doesn’t have an issue with a private drunk or
    doper?

    YOU SAY: this cartoon has exposed some real ugliness that has caused incredible harm to countless numbers.
    —–You bet it has. It has exposed the uglyness of sin and those who endore it. And like you, I have every right and responsibility to challenge that, to parrot you words.

    David, is practicing homosexuality a sin? Easy enough to answer?
    State you position clearly, yes or no.
    Stop skipping around the bush.
    Instead of starting debates—–be out front. Yes or no.
    fishon

  • fishon

    TitforTat said, on April 8th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
    check between a man and a women’s legs—–there you will notice the diff.(fishon)

    What if they are a Hermaphrodite?

    ——TitforTat, this will be my last conversation with you.
    First you are showing your ignorance by that statement in a genuine debate

    Secondly, I will put it this way and leave it for you to figure it out.
    “It takes a Hermaphrodite to know one, and I know Hermaphrodites.” See if you are smart enough to get what I am saying.
    fishon

  • fishon

    Steve,
    Thank you for the kind words.
    I believe I will back out of the debate now.
    I don’t want to move into sin–and I am pushed close to it.

    It is too bad that some of the lurkers to this site who agree with us don’t speak up.
    fishon

  • Savvy

    ——Then there is the fact that you knowingly stir up debate, knowing that we who will be drawn out will, by are defensive of biblical integrity, will say things that others will say hurt them deeply. Peacemaker, that is you all right.

    lol wow, did you just blame David for what comes out of your mouth? What is THAT?!

  • http://www.rockinthegrass.blogspot.com Pete Grassow

    fishon – I do not understand why you hang around this site: it seems to have got under your skin to the point of irrationality! You do not have to be so irritable – no one forces you to keep coming back. Be at peace!

    I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. I believe that persecuting gay people with the Christian faith is sinful. How I wish that Christ-followers could get beyond the gay talk and focus on the sins that really matter – like poverty, oppression, injustice and greed!

  • Savvy

    Jesus or Paul? Hmmm. Jesus. Funny thing is, he didn’t say anything about homosexuality. Probably too busy hanging out with whores and tax collectors?

  • Savvy

    David, I for one am grateful for your cartoons and what you do in your blog. The fact of the matter is we’re talking about an attitude that devastates human beings and it is justified because it is said to be accurate.

    Accurate my foot. Every single day I read how words have been mistranslated, ideas skewed and teachings taken completely out of context. But hey, cling to your accuracy while sacrificing your humanity and empathy guys.

    Yes, he stirred the pot. How else can these secret hateful attitudes be revealed and addressed? And hopefully changed through dialogue.

    I saw several people say in the above discussions that they have been severely hurt within the church over their sexuality and while that broke my heart, what was worse was seeing that not only were they not comforted by the majority, but the behavior that was so hurtful was justified.

    I hope that those who have been hurt find comfort in the fact that there are Christians who would proudly stand beside them as brothers and sisters in Christ, refusing to perpetuate the rejection and humiliation they have encountered, but would much rather seek to help them heal.

    Don’t get discouraged David.

  • joni

    fishon is a pastor??? oh my!!!

    your comments regarding david obviously come from a place of NOT knowing him at all.

    He is my pastor. He is my friend. and he is nothing like you described. your judgment is way off base.

    And for the comment regarding showing up in church with your partner and holding hands, etc. I have, I will and I do!!!

    Caroline, thank you for your comments :) and to those of you who haven’t felt the need to react and jump on every single thing posted… THANKS!!!

    wow.. am thanking God that His grace, mercy and love never fail and never cease to reach out.. because we as people sure mess up in extending it to each other.

    Ya’ll talk about those in your church who have repented of their sin and that is why they are welcome. Guess what, your congregation does not wear a billboard of it’s sin so that you are aware of just who attends your church. Unfortunately YOU keep them from being authentic by your judgments. There are those who you do not welcome among you. Hmm… angels unaware!

  • http://societyvs.wordpress.com/ societyvs

    Steve and Fishon are adamant homosexuality is a sin – there seems to be no changing that – so I guess by default – we all must accept this is their position. I have no problem with them holding to that view – as long as it never steps over the line in a persecution type mentality towards the ‘ousted’ group…question…has it?

    The problem here is homosexuality is someone’s gender we are dealing with – unlike sins of any other kind we can address here (ie: murder, adultery, or pedophilia – all choices and do not reflect parts of the person that cannot be changed). If gay is something people are born into – then we have more of a problem than Fishon or Steve truly want to admit to…we have God judging someone who cannot change what they were created 2 be (maybe God has intentionally come to destroy them? Good bye Loving God picture).

    I imagine Steve and Fishon believe being gay is not something people are born into – and can be determined simply by choice. I wonder about the validity of such a statement myself.

    Fishon, you brought out some statistics and told us ‘argue with Oxford’…well if gay people are way more susceptible to sexual diseases and earlier deaths – why would someone willingly choose that lifestyle? Top that off, they have the unheard of privelege of being excommmunicated from churches, ostracized from family and communities, discriminated in the workplace, and the threat of danger (even death) for openly being gay. Someone chooses that? Why? Sadists or what? Hey Oxford provided the stats – and we all must answer to them – so why do these people willingly endanger their lives and become social outcasts?

    Yes, men and women are different physically – true – and the cycle of reproduction is between a man and a woman…the pieces are accurate. But that says nothing about relationships. Is everyone supposed to marry and have children? No. Is reproduction the only goal of humanity (even if it is a primary one)? How come it is not possible some are not meant to reproduce and fall into another category?

    As for acceptance, if you tell an African American person he is welcome in your church (like everyone else) but not able to hold any position of any influence – what would we call that? Now switch that to a woman…or someone gay. That isn’t really acceptance – that’s a piece-meal offering made to look accepting but behind it is a deeper intention – which isn’t so nice and ‘accepting’. It’s acceptance with rules – rules no one else straight is being held to (or non-African American or as a man). It’s discriminatory.

    Is discrimination a sin?

  • http://stuffchristianculturelikes.com stephy

    I think that acting like a dick to other people is a sin.

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    Apparently, it’s ok for a man to be one, as long as he doesn’t touch one.
    : p

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Fishon…a little science for you to chew on…………first,the gonads….
    Embryonic
    During mammalian development, the gonads are at first capable of becoming either ovaries or testes.[6] In humans, starting at about week 4 the gonadal rudiments are present within the intermediate mesoderm adjacent to the developing kidneys. At about week 6, sex cords develop within the forming testes. These are comprised of early Sertoli cells that surround and nurture the germ cells that migrate into the gonads shortly before sex determination begins. In males, the sex-specific gene SRY that is found on the Y-chromosome initiates sex determination by downstream regulation of sex-determining factors, (such as GATA4, SOX9 and AMH), which leads to development of the male phenotype, including directing development of the early bipotential gonad down the male path of development.

    And of course,the penis….

    Sexual homology
    Main article: Sexual homology
    In short, this is a known list of sex organs that evolve from the same tissue in a human life.

    The glans of the penis is homologous to the clitoral glans; the corpora cavernosa are homologous to the body of the clitoris; the corpus spongiosum is homologous to the vestibular bulbs beneath the labia minora; the scrotum, homologous to the labia minora and labia majora; and the foreskin, homologous to the clitoral hood. The raphe does not exist in females, because there, the two halves are not connected.

    Maybe you have another explanation for yr nipples…if so…I’m all ears

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    dorsey…lol…I think that blog of yrs deserves a new start…we cd use that sense of humour ;)

  • http://happysketcher.blogspot.com Kate

    Wow…..

    The longer I am away from the church the more purely I am able to love people, really LOVE people, without judging the crap out of them.

    And so many of the attitudes of the people making comments here are the very reason I have not been a fixture in the church for a few years. I can’t bear to be a part of something that dimly resembles what God’s intent is for His church. Wasn’t Christ all about relationship, not rules?

    Please get the planks out of your eyes….

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    “Wasn’t Christ all about relationship, not rules?”

    He told her,” go and sin no more.”

    Sounds like He wanted her to stay in bounds.

    But than again, maybe Jesus was just one of those intolerant church people.

  • http://bible.cc Semety

    i agree with you fishy, but you argue too fast for me

    and i don’t want to agree. this religion hurts people i don’t want to hurt people but i know what the Bible says..

    and i was just saying that being molested hurts you. and most gay people are like anyone else, some bad, some good. I guess being drunk hurts other people. hurting yourself hurts other people when they care. I don’t see how homosexuality in itself hurts anybody. lying, hatred, envy, all hurt people, so do murder, rape and prostitution. but homosexuality doesn’t any more than usual sexuality. even fornication hurts people more.

    the new testament relies on the old testament, and the old testament god is definitely capricious. even Jesus talks about hell, condemns people. but if there weren’t a hell to be scared of, there’d be no reason to stay alive.because you always end up hurting someone, and at least if you died it wouldn’t last.

    If you’re going to hell anyways, you might as well live as you can. but if you think you’ve got a chance to go to heaven. then follow god.

    Fishy: sow the seeds, but it’s up to God to grow them. How will they believe if they have not heard?

    FiF: men and women are not the same. we even learned that in psychology.

  • fishon

    Semety,
    Thank you for the reply.

    Argue to fast for you. Maybe so. But David did accomplish what he said he set out to do with his cartoon. I did bite fast.

    Oh, no doubt, being molested hurts. And not being a victim of that, I won’t pretend to know how bad it hurts. I can tell you this——A child molester would not want me as judge–I am afraid I would show no mercy. That being said, I am sure you read where I had one in my congregation, and would have left the church if they had not let him attend worship. Though it may seem contradictory, if I had been the judge he would not have seen the light of day. But I wasn’t the judge, so I did as Jesus would have me do.

    Semety, I won’t address others on this–I already have people ready to stone me. But I don’t believe that it matters whether a sin hurts anyone or not. To sin is to sin against God, no matter the sin. Let’s say the sin of homosexuality hurts no one—neither does Idol worship—but both hurt God.

    No doubt, it is completely up to God to grow them.

    Again, thanks for the congenial reply.
    fishon

  • Savvy

    Fishon don’t be a raving fool. No one here would stone you. After all, we’re trying NOT to be like you.

    Good grief what a persecution complex.

  • Caroline

    Thank you to some of you for your kind words :)

    Regarding the argument about whether people are born gay or not, I would like to draw peoples attention to this: (I did put up a link previously, but obviously people have ignored it, so forgive me for copying a pasting, but here it is).

    Jesus said some are born gay.

    Here Jesus refers to “eunuchs who have been so from birth.” This terminology (“born eunuchs”) was used in the ancient world to refer to homosexual men. Jesus indicates that being a “born eunuch” is a gift from God.

    Discussion: Matthew 19:10-12

    Some Christians confidently assert that God did not create homosexual people “that way.” This is important because they realize if God did create gays “that way,” rejecting them would be tantamount to rejecting God’s work in creation. In pressing their “creation order” argument, some Christians are fond of saying, “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!” To bolster their position, they often cite Jesus’ words in Matthew 19:4-5, where he responds to a question about whether divorce is permissible:

    “Jesus answered, ‘Have you not read that the One who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh”? Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.’ ”

    From these words, some Christians draw the conclusion that heterosexuality is the creation norm and, thus, heterosexual marriage is the only legitimate way for people to form romantic relationships. Ironically, Jesus’ own words in this very same passage refute these conclusions.

    As the dialogue continues, Jesus’ disciples are disturbed by his strict teaching on divorce. The disciples say that if divorce is not a ready option, perhaps it would be best for a man not to marry a woman. Jesus responds:

    “Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)

    Here Jesus identifies three classes of men who should not marry women. Taking his categories in reverse order, first, there are those who have made themselves “eunuchs” for the kingdom of heaven, i.e., those who foreswear marriage to better serve God. Second, he mentions those who have been “made eunuchs by others,” an apparent reference to castrated males. But Jesus mentions a third category — eunuchs who were born that way. Some might argue that Jesus was referring to males born without testicles, but this would be extremely rare. Moreover, this interpretation ignores how the term “born eunuchs” was used in other literature of the time……………..

    ……….Thus, when Matthew 19 is read as a whole, we see Jesus teaches that most people are created for heterosexual marriage. (We too accept this as God’s predominant creation paradigm.) But, unlike some modern Christians, Jesus does not see this as the only honorable way to live. He acknowledges that some human beings have been created by God to follow a less common, but equally legitimate path. There are some who have been eunuchs from birth — made that way by God.

    To read more: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/born_gay.html

  • joni

    really… the whole stoning comment.. not necessary.

    i will tell you though fishon, while i do not hold a stone in my hand to throw at you. your words sure have wiped some at me.

    i choose to extend grace to you. you believe differently. you are free to be who you are in Christ as only He can speak to your heart. just as I am free to be who I am in Christ and allow Him to speak to mine. Diversity in the body of Christ…. it’s not a bad thing. Exclusion is. Intolerance is.

  • Caroline

    Well said Joni.

  • http://societyvs.wordpress.com/ societyvs

    Joni, I have always wondered about the eunuch passage in Matthew as well – as to why Jesus would mention this whole other sect of society. I haven’t done much studying on eunuchs – as far as I know it was about people without the reproduction aspects of life. For some odd reason, and don’t ask me why, everytime I read that passage my mind mostly went to the acceptance of gay people into the church community – and for some – this may be hard to hear (even myself at one point in time). Good work.

  • Boethius

    FISHON:

    I totally agree with you but you are arguing the topic so well, albeit using sarcasm, that there is no reason for me to pipe in.

    I personally am working on the sin of gluttony. I am not grossly overweight but my sin shows on my body. I have lost 50 pounds at least three times in my life only to regain it all because of my sin. This struggle is really getting old. I certainly hope to continue in the fight of struggling against this repetitive sin in my life. I am hoping for visible victory on this side of the grave.

    Brothers and sisters please pray for me in my struggle.

    FISHON and Steve Martin: keep it up with the good arguments.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Boethius,

    Thanks for the encouragement!

    I will pray that you may find success in your battles.

    Hang in there and remember that He loves you in your victories… and your losses.

    – Steve

  • http://toothface.blogspot.com Luke

    wow.. lots going on here.. i read all of the quotes and can only muse , just as the artists who drew the cartoon, that the exact attitude of the cartoon has been shown here… only instead of just the lonely gay person away from the crowd, i would add a crowd of allies that are equally excluded.

    i can’t help but think of the story of Jesus and the Centurion. A centurion comes to Jesus and askes to heal his boy “which he loved so dearly”. (Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-101). it’s a common practice of pedastry in the Greco-Roman world, one can only wonder what was going on here… and this would have been the perfect time for Jesus to denounce homosexuality or the practice of pedastry.. but he does neither. he heals and goes about his way. what are we to make of this?

    love your neighbor as yourself is always the answer i see.

    all those haters on here are on the wrong side of history. as we have seen in Iowa and other states, as we see at the open and affirming churches, as we see in the new generation rising that has little to no hang ups about diversity, and as we see in the life of Christ. grace abounds and there are those who believe this and those who didn’t. the gospel message is one of connection and reconciliation! as Peter was surprised to see the Holy Spirit in the house of a Gentile (Cornelius, another centurion, ummmm…) you will one day wake up and be surprised that the grace of God is in no way limited.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Are the “haters here” the ones who would have people NOT come to repentance (and thereby faith) or are they the ones that want people to come to a living faith by realizing their sin?

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Steve

    Youre not a “Hater”, just an individual who has decided to remain grossly ill informed. There is way to much information out here, to, in the least, make your claims of absolute Biblical knowledge suspect. When you spout off knowing the creators(G-d) ideas with know room for error you just reaffirm to me where you are coming from(ignornace)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    TfT,

    I plead guity to believing the message of the Bible and of the forgiveness of sins in Christ Jesus.

    When I say something, I’m not making it up…it comes right from scripture.

    I never said (or believe) that I have all the answers, but I do believe that God has place everything we need for living in the collection of books in the Bible.

    You do not. No big deal. We disagree. I think it’s great that there are places like this to hear the other side of the story.

    Thanks, TfT

  • Savvy

    What I find so unfortunately is taking everything you read in the Bible at pure face value. A perfect example is someone gave me the message and as clear as day I remember reading passages from it and then from the NIV and then from the ESV and getting three different ideas of what was being said.

    That coupled with the KNOWN FACT that words have been mistranslated and that we need to be aware of the in depth context of certain passages, leaves little doubt in my mind that instead of going “God thinks homosexuality is an abomination” we need to take a MUCH closer look. And I don’t mean just reading concordances that back up what you ALREADY think.

    I sincerely believe that taking it all at current face value is ignorant, arrogant, naive and leads to some of the biggest and most painful misunderstandings in the church today.

    And while we work that stuff out we as a church need to be seriously erring on the side of grace, love and acceptance.

    To the individual who said they had to deal with gluttony and their yo-yoing weight? If it had been a gay person struggling in a similar manner many would claim they were reveling in their sin and they would be shown the door. It takes time to gain weight and in the time you were packing on the pounds while everyone looked on a gay person would have been pounced on.

    I’d love to see people be allowed to work out their own salvations as the bible says without everyone jumping on visible bandwagons while ignoring the fact that their easier to hide sin is theirs to work through privately.

    And FTR overweight does not automatically equal gluttony before anyone gets offended. And I don’t think homosexuality is a sin.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Steve

    I concur, I like to discuss things to. Regardless if it gets heated or not. Hey, at least if Im wrong I will be used to the flames. ;)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    TfT,

    LOL!! Nice one!! :D

  • ttm

    Several comments back Stephy used the word “douchey” to describe fishon’s attitude here. I’ve been thinking about that all day.

    I think fishon truly believes that it is HIS job to cleanse the church of dangerous bacteria and to flush out any threatening organisms–much like a douche. However, it is a well-known fact that douching is rarely necessary; the average vagina is able to cleanse and “rebalance” itself. In most cases, douching does more damage than good.

    Take my weird train of thought for what it’s worth. I think douching (both physical and spiritual) is at best only needed under dire circumstances and with an able Dr.’s supervision, and is at worst–creating a less healthy situation than the original one. Douching can cause irritation and inflammation, can create a climate of (or ripe for) infection, and can push germs even deeper than they were to start with.

    And there ends my mini-rant…

  • http://societyvs.wordpress.com/ societyvs

    I like Luke – he’s my boy (lol)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    ttm,

    I think you are wrong about Fishon.

    Fishon (and I) believe that in order for God to work faith in someone, they need to repent of their sin.

    If there is no repentance…there can be no sorrow or humilty over one’s sin…and there can be no living faith.

    Fishon explained quite well that his church is full of sinners, of ALL stripes.

    He wants people to be aware of their sin. Not to deny it. So that faith can take a hold of the person. That’s all he wants.

    That’s all I would want for anyone, also.

  • http://www.freestyleroadtrip.wordpress.com freestyleroadtrip

    “all those haters on here are on the wrong side of history. as we have seen in Iowa and other states, as we see at the open and affirming churches, as we see in the new generation rising that has little to no hang ups about diversity, and as we see in the life of Christ. grace abounds and there are those who believe this and those who didn’t. the gospel message is one of connection and reconciliation! as Peter was surprised to see the Holy Spirit in the house of a Gentile (Cornelius, another centurion, ummmm…) you will one day wake up and be surprised that the grace of God is in no way limited” (Luke)

    This may be one of the best paragraphs I have read in quite some time. Reminds of another naked pastor that appeared a few months back with a bazillion people standing in heaven astounding at who else was there. Statements like, “What the..,” and “You made it in,” and “How’d you get here” filled the page, and I laughed out loud. It is interesting how we chose to limit God’s grace, how we are so sure that our particular interpretation of scripture is the truth, how we think the bible is the sole source of all truth, how we treat the bible like it is God itself, and how we fail to consider the bias that the writers of scripture may have brought to the table. Thanks to Luke, TFT, Societyvs, and all others who have the courage to stand up for grace.

  • Savvy

    I laughed so hard at the douche analogy, I can’t even tell you.

    Absolutely epic.

  • http://www.freestyleroadtrip.wordpress.com freestyleroadtrip

    Well I have to say I love the douche analogy. I am a doctor, and, yes, they are rarely necessary, mostly harmful, and are really just a way for some company to make a buck.

  • Gabriel

    Caroline, some people are born lame, are never healed and are hopefully lovingly excepted. Altough it is in no way their fault, I wouldn’t say it is neccesarily God’s will for them to be born that way.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Savvy….on another note,if it appears that Paul considers homosexuality to be a sinful(if my interpretation is correct) … why cdn’t he be wrong.I don’t understand why biblical inerrrancy is so ‘anathema’ to those who claim to have ‘a faith in God’. A ‘faith in inerrancy’ seems to be an unnecessary add-on.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Gabriel…yr words are usually graceful,but what are you implying…that gays are defective?

  • http://bible.cc Semety

    wouldn’t eunuchs who were born that way be a-sexual not homosexual?

    why is sex neccessary for a loving relationship – you can’t have kids anyways?

    even idolatry is more harmful..

    perhaps.. we are saved by faith, our faith is proved by works. You can’t sin and walk in light at the same time, but if you say you have no sin you decieve yourself. So, everyone sins on earth, and when we believe and attempt to turn from our sins, God forgives us. I’d think, that even if homosexuality is a sin, if you truly believe it isn’t, and other than that you repent, don’t use it as an excuse for fornication, and love. Then, it won’t put you in hell, at the end you’ll know the truth. But you have to be sincere. I’d also say, that if you believe it is a sin, and don’t warn people, that’s not loving, and could be a sin of conscience.

    and on sins of conscience — sexual orientation shouldn’t be an identity. I suppose if you’re in a committed relationship, people will know, but other than that- why would anyone even know? and it seems wrong to flaunt something that could be considered a sin. Like, if someone was uncomfortable with alcohol, I wouldn’t drink in front of them.

    hell – it’s a big thing. a serious thing. people are going to hell. and it hurts God. the worst part would be disappointing God. I don’t care about heaven, yes i’m afraid of hell – who wouldn’t be? – but i’d much rather there be nothing, cause that would be best for everyone. except i want to be with god, but i hurt people and i don’t want to hurt him, and that’s what hell is.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Savvy…sorry,I meant…a denial of “biblical inerrancy to be anathema”

  • fishon

    steve martin said, on April 9th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
    ttm,

    I think you are wrong about Fishon.
    ——–Steve, they are wrong

    Fishon (and I) believe that in order for God to work faith in someone, they need to repent of their sin.-
    ——–Amen, Steve. I don’t dare quote scripture, however–that will bring on a scathing attack. By the way, we hang onto scripture as our standard—so many others use only themselves as a standard.

    If there is no repentance…there can be no sorrow or humilty over one’s sin…and there can be no living faith.
    ———-Amen

    Fishon explained quite well that his church is full of sinners, of ALL stripes.
    ——-Interestingly enough, none of the bashers had ANYTHING to say about that. I bet it was the repentant pedophile they hated me allowing in the congregation that kept them sooo silent.

    He wants people to be aware of their sin. Not to deny it. So that faith can take a hold of the person. That’s all he wants.
    ———–Some of these folks have a real misconception about love. Love does not always tolerate–love confronts so as to save the soul: i.e., “Go and sin NO MORE.”

    That’s all I would want for anyone, also.
    ——-Amen
    ——fishon

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    By the way, we hang onto scripture as our standard—so many others use only themselves as a standard. (fishon)

    I think the key is, you read scripture with your bias, others use their bias. Why is your bias the correct one? Explain to me if there are 2 camps that interpret scripture from a different perspective, who gets to determine which one is correct? Oh by the way, both have the Holy Spirit directing them. If possible, when you explain it to me, use logic. Thanks.

  • joni

    fishon are you seriously pointing your finger and calling the other posters here “Bashers”?? are you serious??? Dude, can you see the three fingers pointing back at you??

    The only words on here that are bashing are the ones coming from YOU and Steve. The stones being thrown are coming from your hand. You have bashed me and only a piece of who I am… that which makes me me, everything that God has created me to be and who I am….. thankfully you don’t know me and so none of it is truth in my ears.. simply your opinion.

    I just don’t understand your comments of calling others bashers and stating that others want to stone you. reread the words here, the only place where there lies venom is within your own posts. are you blinded?

    fishon…. in this place, there is no “fish on” your line… in fact, it is “fish off” because you would more than likely detach a person from the fishing line that catch one. Sorry if that sounds harsh it’s how I feel.

    and I have chosen to not come into this thread again because well frankly I’m done having my spirit and heart grieved by your words and lack of grace in them.

  • Boethius

    fishon: Hang in the brother; you are doing a great job.

    joni: I am assuming from your second paragraph that your sexuality is “that which makes me me, everything that God has created me to be and who I am.” My sexuality is certainly NOT that which makes me me. The Apostolic teaching is very clear that there is neither male nor female in eternity so, I would never want my sexuality to be the end all of who I am in God since it is not a remaining, eternal me.

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    Great job at what? How are you defining progress?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Fishon,

    Keep up the good work of proclaiming both God’s law AND His gospel.

    We certainly need BOTH.

    The gospel without the law does not create humility(and therefore repentance),

    and the law without the gospel just creates a hard edged legalism.

    With the law comes repentance and with repentance comes forgiveness and the living trust in the One who has died for your SIN.

    Oops…there’s that old fashioned word again. Sorry..I hope I didn’t offend anyone.

    That word (SIN) is offensive isn’t it. We just don’t like it. It says to us that we ought not be living any way we want to. it says to us that maybe we are not in charge of this place after all. It says to us that we are in active rebellion (all of us) to the Living God.

    It is offensive. So was that death on the cross that we commemorate today, or this evening (those of us that still do).

    It’s offensive to me that people blow it off like He had a bad day or something. The man was severely beaten and staked to wood and left to bleed and suffocate unto death. A death that we are all complicit in. All of us that will own up to it.

    GOOD JOB, FISHON! KEEP IT UP!

    – Steve M.

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    So, do we need to designate a score-keeper to see who’s winning this argument?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    The Word ought make it’s own way…when it is told.

    That Word of God’s Law AND His Gospel is exactly what Fishon (and I and Boethius and others) are trying to convey to people.

    Every once in a while…someone will hear it.

    But I’m not suprised when they don’t. Hey…I quite often don’t want to hear it, either.

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    Steve, You’re right. That word is painful to hear (for me, at least). I fall short in so many ways, but I believe that what Jesus did covers my shortcomings completely.

    Completely.

    But that’s not really the argument here, is it? The difficulty seems to lie in differing definitions of what constitutes sin. Paul said that “whatever is not of faith, is sin.” So the behavior doesn’t seem to be as important as the spirit behind it.

    Let me ask you something, Steve. It’s not a trick question, I promise.
    When you came to Christ, what prompted you to stop sinning (assuming that you did)?

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    I can understand what you’re saying Steve. I’m all for inclusiveness. You know that. And you’ve always been welcomed on this site. But I find it curious why you come into a forum that struggles with, let’s say, the gay issue, and tries to do it with grace and inclusiveness, and gays risk it enough to come on and comment, only for you to preach at them and scare them away, only to reaffirm their fears and anger towards the church. I don’t understand the mentality behind that. It’s like you’re trying to convert everyone in your path to Lutheranism, including me. As much as I respect Luther, he died, and he didn’t rise again. Even his words, as glorious as they might be, can’t translate 100% into our era. And they must not.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Dorsey,

    I haven’t stopped sinning. No Christian has, or ever will until they die.

    But I don’t glory in my sin.

    The rub is that proponents of gay sex do not believe the bible when it says that God does not want us to engage in that behavior.

    No sin. No repentance.

    Jesus knows full well that we will continue to sin. He is looking for a little humility. That’s all.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    He is looking for a little humility. That’s all.(Steve)

    Why not take that advice and admit you might not read the Bible exactly right. One thing that makes me very leery of you and fishon is the fact that you both assume you read the Bible exactly right. The smell of your arrogance is overwhelming at times.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Read an interesting comment over at freestyleroadtrip….the writer makes a point of how to approach scripture….in part…

    …..”He(Jesus) does not say, “these words of OT and NT that will be written are they only way to know God the Father.” To mistake the container “the word” for the Word is foolish. A womb is important but just the container for the baby and the means to an end. It’s the baby that really matters. “(Paul F.)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    TfT,

    Words actually mean something.

    Sometimes we just have to look at what the text is actually saying.

  • fishon

    Steve,
    I will not forsake our Lord or His Words because of a few who take me/us on for loving them enough to point out their sin.

    I don’t know what Bible many of these folks read, but it isn’t the one I read. I hear over and over on this site in so many words that God/Jesus’ teaching was, is all inclusive. If God’s teachings are all inclusive-Adam and Eve would have not been separated from God and tossed out of the Garden. Ask the drowned in Noah’s flood if God is all inclusive. Pharaoh and his army might beg to differ about God being inclusive.

    I seem to remember that Jesus told only one on the crosses, beside, him that he would be in paradise. And finally, if God is all inclusive then there would not be two different final destinations for man’s soul—heaven and hell.

    To teach inclusiveness to unrepentant sinners is the viles act of hate. One of the greatest acts by mere man in the Bible was with Stephen in Acts 7. He did NOT say, “Oops, I don’t want to tell you the truth because of the doctrine of inclusiveness. And I am not going to tell you the truth because to do so is not love.” No, it was love that drove him to say, “You stiff-neck people with uncircmcised hearts and ears….”

    Many on this blog, if they follow there idea of what love is would condemn Stephen for those hateful words. But in reality, his confronting the sinner was love. And he paid with his life for it. But then, God must have been pleased with Stephen and his kind of confronting love because God opened heaven up to Steven.

    fishon

  • fishon

    NP said to Steve:::But I find it curious why you come into a forum that struggles with, let’s say, the gay issue, and tries to do it with grace and inclusiveness, and gays risk it enough to come on and comment, only for you to preach at them and scare them away, only to reaffirm their fears and anger towards the church.

    ————Why would that surprise you. You have written that you do cartoons to expose people like us. Why David, you invite us in by you own admission with your cartoons.
    fishon

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Fishon,

    Thank you, sir.

    The Truth will make it’s own way.

    The universe does not revolve around whether or not some will, or will not believe the Word.

    One either believes…or not. That is just the way it is. Jesus Himself said as much. (but that is just in the silly Bible…we can’t know for sure if he really said it)

    That is a pretty big gamble.

    A blessed Good Friday and a very happy Easter to you, and to everyone else here on this blog.

    – Steve

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon: I’m glad you used the example of Stephen. Let’s read that story again, in its context. The very reason Stephen was stoned because his message decentralized the love of God to all the world. What angered his judges so much was that he universalized God’s plan and took it from out of their hands. Read it. That’s what happened and made them so angry and murderous.

    What I am passionate about and work for is inclusion. I love unity in diversity. This means that everyone from you to me and all in between and beyond can fellowship here. That’s what I work for. I do not strive for agreement or homogeneity of belief. And I happen to want to do what Stephen envisioned.

    I find it not accidental that Paul was there endorsing the exclusivity of the judges by holding their cloaks. For later he actually furthered Stephen’s message with his missionary journeys of inclusion into the people of God. Which also got him killed.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Steve

    Do you speak Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic? If not, how do you know what the actual Word is?

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Actually,with respect to my previous quote ripped from freestyleroadtrip,this one is as interesting….

    Just a note about reading Scripture. We all approach it from some “point of view” that we unconsciously/consciously use as an interpretative key. Even, if I have never read Scripture my typical education will predispose me to read from a materialistic point of view. If I have been indoctrinated as a Christian in a Calvinistic or Wesleyan church, I will bring that point of view.

    Many of us as learn to approach Scripture through the Gospels since they are first and seem to tell the earliest stories as background to the rest of the story. What we don’t know (or ignore) is that many people were introduced to faith in Christ, lived a full life and died without ever reading or hearing one of the Gospels. That is, Paul’s original letters were written before Gospels so his “gospel” of universal adoption (Eph 1; Col 1, Rom 5:18) of humanity as the Second Adam was all they knew. When we read the Gospels th(r)ough Paul’s Good News, the story is quite different from the “penal satisfaction” atonement theory that many of us assumed was the only (right) way to interpret it.

    Point of view makes all the difference yet (Paul F.)

    Now,that’s a breath of fresh air

  • fishon

    David,
    Yes, I agree, Stephen was decentralizing the love of God for the world to which the Jewish leaders did not want to hear or embrace for several reasons. However, that was not a new concept. God’s love for the world is shown throughout the OT. However, I would disagree with you as to that being the primary reason Stephen was killed.

    It seems obvious that they killed Stephen because of his words from 51-53. Those who killed Stephen had heard the words spoken before verse 51 in many different ways and on different occasions. Words like “stiff-necked,” “uncircumcised hearts,” “You always resist the Holy Spirit,” “and now you have betrayed and murdered him,” were what caught Stephen killed. See verse 54.

    David, I believe in inclusion–but to the extent that the Bible, Jesus, and the Apostles teach it. Contrary to what you hope and dream for, fellowship is on all encompassing–but exclusionary. You know the scrptures I could site, so I won’t waste time.

    You misrepresent Stephen’s and Paul’s message of inclusion as to becoming people of God. Peter’s message was clear–”Repent.” Inclusion did/does NOT come without it.

    David, if you give or leave the impression to an unrepentant sinner that is wanting to become a part of your congregation and the Church that is Jesus’ body, that they do not have to turn away from their sin [not easy--can be difficult] that is not fidelity to God or scripture.

    I guess it comes down to what is sin and what are specific sins that we can glean from Bible teaching. If you believe practicing homosexuality is NOT sin, then the debate will continue to be circular. However, if you believe practicing homosexuality is a sin, but are inclusive of those into the Body of Christ in spite of it being sin–that is a different debate.

    David, I asked you this before–however, I do not recollect receiving an answer. Is the practice of homosexuality a sin? I anticapate that you have no problem calling theift a sin–murder a sin–rape a sin. I suspect you would come right out and say yea or nay.
    So, what is it? Practicing homosexuality, a sin, not a sin?
    fishon

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    I do not wish to ratify your certitude. That’s exactly what I oppose.

  • fishon

    No, you are a coward.
    You are like Eramus. You try to have it both ways.
    To declare is to take you from fence straddling to feet planted on Christ with courage.
    Silence is worse than even a wrong declaration.
    But enough said by me.
    fishon

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    You have got to be kidding me.

    David Hayward (his real name) takes a position you don’t like (on his own website).

    From behind your pseudonym, you call the man a coward?

    I can’t decide if you’re the pot or the kettle. Either way, you’re sad.

  • fishon

    dorsey,
    Read a little more carefully my friend.
    David knows my name and where I live.
    We have e-mailed in the past, privately. So off your horse, but don’t hurt yourself when you fall.

    And if you were following closely, you would notice I asked him a DIRECT question, not one out of the ordinary or unusal. Very standard for a preacher to be asked. In fact just about every preach gets that question and answers it. He did coward out—you can defend to the pigs come home–but he refused to answer a very standard question—–especially when he is seeking to expose people [David's very words::I knew this would stir up debate and expose the very attitude this cartoon tries to portray] like me.

    People on this forum know exactly where I am coming from and I answer straight out–but David starts a discussion then when it gets to hot he backs out. That is his operating procedure.

    Pot calling the kettle back.
    —-So as to make it plain—–My question to David, especially since it was under discussion and the topic of his cartoon–DID YOU GET THAT–HE SET THE TOPIC THEN BACKS OFF ANSWERING THE OBVIOUS QUESTION– *****So, what is it? Practicing homosexuality, a sin, not a sin?***** One more time, dorsey, HE SET THE TOPIC–not me.

    Oh, so not to be the pot or kettle, I will answer straight out—-PRACTICING homosexuality is sin. All the “Lego” god builders can’t change that fact.

    Dorsey, it is like this:
    An unrepentant PRACTICING homosexual unless born again is going to hell. Now you can call that hate and bigotry all you want.

    But Dorsey, I don’t play favorites, nor does God.

    My son denies even the life of an actual Jesus. Unless my son repents and follows Jesus he is going to hell. Don’t doubt my love for my son. He is the apple of my eye, and my great friend. And if there was any way I could scramble scripture to make it say what I wish it said, ——well, no, I still wouldn’t scramble it, because I fear God, not man.

    Many on here have called me a hater because of my stand to which I can take no other–because of what God says. For them to stay consistent in calling me a hater of the homosexual, they must also call me a hater of my son because of my stand in reference to his disobedience to God. But when they call me a hater of my son–they need to remember the bottles of tears I have shed for him.

    As far as David taking a position I don’t like—you had better believe, in reference to my son, God has taking a position I don’t like. But I ain’t God–God is God.
    fishon

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    fishon

    Like Steve you are not a “hater”. I actually see you as a very sad individual. To have such fear of your G-d makes me pity you. But more than that, I pity what your Son must feel, and there’s no way to sugar coat that with the Love of Jesus.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Fishon…David thinks differently than you…so what!…why are you so obsessed with it….another notch in yr belt? Every time you reply,you have a story of heroic effort on yr part to be the last man standing…just who are you trying to convince?

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    fish, my apologies if I mistook your anonymity for something it isn’t. Still, I think you (and a few others) would have a far different tone if we were having this discussion around a few beers rather than behind our computers.

    I guess I’m a coward, too, by your definition. I have raised the same question, and my position is that I don’t know, but that it’s not my job to decide who’s in and who’s out (you seem to have that covered). Scripture tells me that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you are saved.

    Period.

    I’ll ask you the question that Steve dodged earlier. When you came to Christ, what motivated you to stop sinning (or to try)?

  • fishon

    finf said: why are you so obsessed with it
    —a not so careful study of NP’s 2 main themes seems to suggest obsession with him.
    Only blindness will miss it.
    His latest cartoon–more Christian bashing.
    Of course you won’t agree. You sing in the first row.
    fishon

  • fishon

    finf said:: heroic effort on yr part
    No, just part of life. And my son and I have a great relationship. Nothing heroic like loseing a son for my beliefs. He is my best hunting and fishing partner. See, he is confident in his beliefs, so my beliefs don’t intimadate him like it does you and others.
    fishon

  • fishon

    doresy,
    OUt the door to a breakfast. I will answer when I return.
    fishon

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Fishon…last time I checked, David ,is allowed to express his opinions on his blog. You don’t seem to care for freedom of speech…..or is the problem disagreement?

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Fishon…”See, he is confident in his beliefs, so my beliefs don’t intimadate him like it does you and others.’

    There you go again….nothing like self-absorption to fuel the heroic struggle

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    This discussion isn’t about free speech…is it?

    I thought Fishon and I were critiqing the fact that Christians feel the need to bash other Christians all the time.

    There is no problem critiqing the church. But the a reoccuring theme here is to bash Christians.

    Why be one? Unless your version of ‘anything goes Christianity’ is what you are striving for.

    Anything goes Christianity is mush. It is nothing at all. It doesn’t stand for anything other than it doesn’t stand for anything. It is some generic lovie dovie drivel.

    You might as well become a Budhist, or anything else.

    Dorsey, I’ll say it again…Christians do not stop sinning. Did you hear me that time? I’m not dodging anything. Your ears are dodging my answers. What is your hangup over the sin question? The question ought be about repentance.

    Many of the folks here just want to live any way they want and feel great about it. Well… do it then. Have a nice life. I hope you feel terrific when you giggle and laugh and scoff at those who believe that there ought be some sorrow over sin, and who take the bible seriously.

    Laugh it up now. Enjoy your anything goes Christianity. Have NO FEAR of God.

    I fear God. And I love Him too. A healty fear (respect) of someone who has great power of you is a natural and healthy thing to have. I had that kind of “fear” of my parents when I was growing up. I did not want to break the rules. For fear of punishment and of hurting them. Both.

    Ah…that’s just old fashioned malarkey. I’m sure the enlightened, totally actualized, modern people here have no rules, had no rules for their own children. They wouldn’t be so cruel as to actually have standards in their home.

    God does have standards. To openly flaunt those standards without a care in the world, and without any remorse, is just asking for it.

    So, live it up. Bash Christians and Christ and rules and whatever all you want…and think that YOU are morally superior.

    Many of you folks are SO JUDGMENTAL.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Steve…is it remotely possible for you to an discuss and debate another’s POV without slipping into the apocalyptic preacher mode

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    FiF,

    I’ve done a bit of that here in the past.

    But we as Christians have an eschatelogical view of things.

    Maybe that’s why I jump ahead of things.

    The touchy- feely of the here and now really means nothing in the end.

    It is that “end” (the real begining) that is our hope.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Yawn !…is the sermon over yet?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    FiF,

    Sermon’s over. Goodnight! :D

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    FiF,

    I just put a blog post up ragarding this entire topic, at:

    http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/we-must-die/

    Feel free to stop by and let me know (again) where I have gone wrong.

  • rebecca

    What’s wrong with the apocalyptic preacher mode? Guys, how does Revelation fit into your Biblical view of a loving and inclusive God? I haven’t heard that crazzzy book brought up since I was in middle school. Isn’t it trendy anymore? Last time I flipped too far it was still in the Bible.

    ^This might be a strange first impression into the ‘conversation’.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    rebecca,

    Be careful…ther are many here who do not value the bible unless they can mold it into what they WANT it to say…and not what IT ACTUALLY SAYS.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    Yes Rebecca…be careful….there’s people on this site who actually have other opinions/approaches about Iron Age literature…imagine that.

  • rebecca

    good grief you two are impossible together…

  • rebecca

    fif,
    do tell the other approach

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    “…who actually have other opinions/approaches about Iron Age literature…”

    Right. And look where that approach is taking us. Into a vacuous faith being filled with all manner of human folly, and assertion of ‘the self’.

    Hooray for the modern self actualized human who knows better than God!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    FiF and I went to seperate schools together :D

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKrW94iR0P7O7wE# faithlessinfatima

    More to yr question Rebecca…I take the approach that the apocalyptic milieu that’s reflected in the NT is problematic given that the expectations of the end of the age didn’t come to pass.There are lively and interesting debates among biblical scholars whether Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet like John the Baptist,but most wd think that Paul expected an imminent return of the Lord..Also,there does appear some reason to believe that the idea was being recalculated in the later epistles(a day is like a thousand yrs).

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    That Paul said to ready yourself for the coming of the Lord is near does not trouble me at all.

    Jesus Himself said that no one knows the day or the time when the Kingdom will come.

    A thousand years is but a day, or blink of an eye to God.

    And our own deaths surely are at hand, anyway. They will be here before we know it, and we ought be ready (trust in the Lord) for at our deaths we will enter the kingdom.

    I find that argument about Paul’s understanding of the end times of no consequence.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Pardom me for butting in!

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    it’s a blog – if you don’t butt in, you won’t say anything ;)

    Wasn’t the year/day thing from the Psalms?

    we should spend each day serving the Lord as if he were coming tomorrow – isn’t that what the parables say?

    David’s beliefs are only glimpsed through his cartoons – he’ll never answer a direct question, but that might be the best thing.

    I’ve found that I say the same things here as I’d say out witnessing, except you can’t see me fumble or cry. Actually I usually let the men do the talking, so maybe I am a bit more bold here.

    I’d like to try the full spiel on some of you guys..

    maybe the end times are the most important things. If you’re not going to Hell, then what are you saved from? Why try to be a better person, or not sin, or find the truth? And why is it so wrong to be Christian, if there is no truth? Why is love better than hate, if we all end up dead anyways?

    Going out evangelizing, you learn: What you agree with, what you disagree with, what you freely believe, and what you really don’t like but have to believe anyways.

    I really really hate the doctrine of Hell. But I know that God will punish our tresspasses.

    Except – we’re going wrong with this homosexuality issue. We should not be fighting on this issue – God does not hate you because you’re gay. We don’t even need to argue about this any more than we need to argue about the mode of baptism. God judges you on how you stand up to His law. have you lied? stolen? lusted? Are you guilty? If you die today, are you going to Heaven?

    and Fishy, Steve, etc – we plant the seed, someone waters,God gives the growth. we want to be persuasive, but God does not leave it up to our persuasiveness, our logic, or our creativity. God will save some – the Word of God will not return void. God will save some.

    I pray for you Fif, i still pray for you.

    I’m the only one in my family who is christian. It’s hard for me to think of them as deserving of hell. I don’t want my family to go to hell, but all I can do is pray and talk to them. My dad hurt us.. But if repents and believes, even he could be saved. but he who believes not is condemned already.

  • fishon

    Dorsey,
    Back like I promised—took a little longer than expected. Had to mow church yard, and it is a big one. Cut a few limbs and stuff—oh my, the old body is not what it use to be.

    Before I answer your question I want to comment on something you said:: it’s not my job to decide who’s in and who’s out (you seem to have that covered).
    ——-Oh yea, the final decision is up to God. However, you have it wrong. I do NOT decide who is in or out. I just go by what the Bible says. It is like this. An unrepentant idol worshipper is on his/her way to hell. The Bible says that. When I affirm that teaching that doesn’t mean I make it so, I am just repeating what the Word says.

    Your question:::: When you came to Christ, what motivated you to stop sinning (or to try)?
    ——-Good question. ——– First, the Holy Spirit. Second, my instant desire to please and obey God. Was I successful? Not entirerly. Why not? Overcoming sin is a life long process. I am still in that process.

    ——-I became a Christian at the age of 33—no previous experience with God. Among some of the most destructive sins I had was the sin of drunkenness, which led to many other sins. However, I was instantly healed of drinking—I stopped in a moment—I still had a desire to drink, but didn’t [still have desire now and again]. Why God enabled me to instantly stop, and does not do that for others, I have no idea.

    ——-God took away instantly my filthy, cursing mouth. Why other Christians struggle with that—not a clue.

    ——-Porn however, was much more difficult. Why God didn’t take that away instantly—well, I guess He wanted to help me trust Him—to lean on Him—and to go to Him when sin wanted to raise its ugly head. Over the years—-victory.

    ——-Still battles of sorts with other things, but the battles are easier now.

    ——-The biggest motivation now is to a great desire to please and obey the Lord—not because I have to, but because I want to. The process marches on.
    fishon

  • http://toothface.blogspot.com Luke

    “The touchy- feely of the here and now really means nothing in the end”

    and here is the root of the problem. this is a fundamental difference in reading the Gospel. as i read it, i see Jesus very much concerned with the here and now. you know that prayer he taught us which says “…on earth as it is in heaven…” which makes me stand up against injustice NOW and not wait until whatever the injustice is to kill me so that i may have justice in the here-after. you know, all that eating with tax collectors, lepers, outcasts, widows, and the poor he did IN LIFE. he didn’t wait until after.

    you know.. let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream! (Amos 5:24).

    also i see how many people project their own fears onto the “other.” we project our fear of sex and sexuality, fear of the high divorce rates, fear of looking at our own sins… we project these fears onto the LGBTQ community, when we straight people should really be worrying about our own sins of sexual excess and explotation of one another… Gay people aren’t destroying marriage, straight people have been doing this on our own for a loooong time. the LGBTQ community is not a threat to marriage, Britney Spears, Madonna, my father and grandfather, and many others i know are!

    people who run quickly into marriage, who commit adultry, who absue their spouses, who use their spouses, who expect their spouse to save them… these are the threats.

    what did Jesus have to say about fear? and about the whole thing about the speck in your neighbor’s eye and the log cabin in your own? i’m sure he said a few things… but then, y’all know the verses by heart.. don’t ya?

    and i’m not buying the “love the sinner hate the sin” thing. remember when people thought it was a sin to be black because of Ham? remember that? that’d be like saying “I love LeBron James, i just hate the fact that he’s black.” sorry, try again.

  • http://toothface.blogspot.com Luke

    “became a Christian at the age of 33″ -fishon

    cool dude! i’m happy for ya. but i’ve been one all of my life… and i support and love my LGBTQ neighbors.. and what does Acts have to say about the elders in the church?

    just saying… listen, learn. certainity is the opposite of faith. if you know, you don’t need faith then do you?

  • fishon

    Luke said:certainity is the opposite of faith. if you know, you don’t need faith then do you?
    ——Depends on the certainty.
    ——I don’t have JUST faith that Jesus died for me—-I am CERTAIN He did.
    If you want to play word games and call that not really faith–you play the game, I
    won’t.

    ——I am CERTAIN that a unrepentant murderer is going to hell unless he/she does
    repent.
    ——If you want to call that the opposite of faith–well, you need to reread and study
    the Bible–it is full of certainty that does NOT compromise faith.
    fishon

  • Boethius

    fishon: the more I read, the more I like your style. My heart goes out to you regarding your son.

    steve martin: I want to encourage you again. Keep it up.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    fishon

    Ok. Here is certainty. Talk all your fellow Christians out of it.

    John 12:32

    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

    Boethius

    Maybe your sympathy should be for his Son. Talk about misplaced compassion.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=7536gREd6yo&feat=directlink faithlessinfatima

    Boethius…have you figured out how to get airmiles from this?

  • fishon

    Boethius,
    Thank you. Contrary to the yapper, I know exactly what you mean.

    I’ll not forget the day when my son in his Junior year of college called me up and said, “Dad, lets go fishing.” We went up into the High Cascades to a favorite spot. He sat me down and said, “Dad, I am going to tell you something you are not going to like very well, but I need to be up front with you.” So we talked. Then we fished.

    Isn’t it interesting how several scream tolerance and yet show little tolerance for my and others position. We get called haters and bigots. Yet, my son–a non-believer who know I believe that if he doesn’t repent he will end up in hell still loves me and does not think of me as a hater of him. Yet some Christians scream “hater.” Go figure.
    Happy Easter.
    fishon

  • http://www.dorseymarshall.com dorsey

    The difference is relationship.

    You have a relationship with your son. He believes that your love for him will temper your response, and I would imagine that it does.

    Your comments here lack that framework. For what it’s worth (and I said this to a friend regarding this, um, discussion), I don’t think you’re a bigoted jerk. But, absent any relational context, it’s easy enough to perceive you that way. I think that’s why online debates such as this always devolve into us/them pissing contests.

  • fishon

    dorsey,
    , it’s easy enough to perceive you that way
    —–I don’t doubt that.

    I guess the hard part for me is that I was raised in a family that would debate issues on a regular bases. As a kid I would sit an listen to the Uncles, Aunts, cousins and all debate politics. Some where San Fransico liberals, while others were country conservatives. The debate were hot and heavy, but never, never did anyone go home mad.

    I have had homosexual friends who knew that I thought they were going to hell unless they repented. Not once did they ever turn down a dinner invitation.

    My Muslim friend thought I was bound for hell–that did not stop me from having many a lunch date with him. Just cause the guy thought his religon was correct and mind wasn’t had/has nothing to do with our friendship.

    We live in such a politically correct time, and part of that political correctness is to not say things straight forward and to the point about certain issues.

    It is like this. One of the pastor’s I have fellowship with is a Baptist [I am not], and now and again he calls me a hard headed Arminian. So what does he do last week. He brings me a book by Luther [Bondage of the Will] and says to me, “Read and learn something.” I love it. He is straight forward, and I don’t have to guess where he is coming from. Oh, great book, by the way. I do have a lot of questions for Luther when I see him in heaven.

    Well, I have jabbered enough–you are right in what you state, but I doubt if I change–I don’t know any other way.
    fishon

  • Gabriel

    FaithlessFatima, I do not see gays as defective but sexuality as damaged(so to speak disabled from it’s full potential) including my own, even though I am not gay. Before one could manage one’s damaged sexuality one should accept it as such. Only then could it be fruitfully integrated with the rest of your life and could love truimph (sometimes over but most of the time through and in spite of) that brokeness.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=7536gREd6yo&feat=directlink faithlessinfatima

    Gabriel…”I do not see gays as defective but sexuality as damaged”…if I understand yr reply,I’m tempted to believe that most gays wd feel their sexuality to be quite natural and healthy,despite what negative social pressures wd suggest, and more importantly influence….it’s not the same as being visually or hearing impaired.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    I do believe that some people may be born “gay”, but I do believe that vast majority of “gays” are not born that way but are tempted into that kind of a lifestyle by a immoral culture that is soaked in sin and by a devil that is doing all he can to rip people away from Christ.

    Law preaching in the church isn’t (properly understood) for the pupose of getting everyone to toe the line and be perfect little Christians that do not sin (that is impossible), but it is for the purpose of creating, or leading people to repentance. To feelo sorrow for their actions that then the gospel (the forgiveness of their sins) may be able to go to work on them.

    This is done by the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit goes to work on someone, things change. Not that we give up sinning, although many do drop certain “habits” or activities that are sinful.

    We sin because we are sinners. Not the other way around.

    So the law must be preached and in it’s full measure (as Jesus preached it in the Sermon on the Mount). It must not be watered down so that it is managable. The law is never managable for righteousness sake…although it does give us a better life here to the extent we are able to follow it.

    So the law is preached from the pulpit to create repentance, which leads to a living faith, which is all that God is after from us.

    He is after it so much, that He gives it to us as a gift. Through the hearing of His Word, He creates faith. So His Word (the Law and the Gospel) must not be tampered with or watered down.

    Churches that have thrown the law out the window are endangering souls, every bit as much as churches that have twisted the gospel into some sort of law, or self improvement project.

    Thanks, Boethius for your encouragement.

    Thanks, all, for your consideration.

  • rebecca

    I’m here to learn. I have a few facts to offer that relate to my life.
    I spent my childhood in a church that preached that homosexuality is a sin. I now live in a different area and go to an outreach youth ministry with the same belief. This youth ministry attracts kids facing homosexuality and bisexuality, and both before I was in the ministry and now I have spent a lot of time with the girls who are lesbian and bisexual.
    My experience talking with them and growing up with them has formed my viewpoint on this issue.
    Five of the girls who struggle with their sexuality have mentioned to me that they were raped or molested as children. One of the girls(a very close friend) announced herself as bisexual because, since I switched to cyberschool, all of her friends in school were gay and bisexual, and they were pressuring her, telling her that they wanted to ‘turn her gay’. She changed for acceptance within a small group because the broader group of students meant less to her. I think this happens a lot.
    I hear people justifying homosexuality because (paraphrase, correct it if it’s wrong) ‘God wouldn’t want gays to be cut off from expressing love to those they are attracted to…’
    The girl who I have had the most conversations with about sexuality is stuck on her attraction to girls. She was raped as a small girl. She states that she refuses to trust men. She makes a grand show of being ‘in love’ with the girls she dates all the time and tries to justify them to me, but there is no love. It is all lust. It is all selfseeking codependency. She does not seek good, lasting friendships beyond me and a choice few in the ministry.
    If there are gay people out there who honestly struggle with their urges and seek purity in all things, no matter what it costs them, and still find themselves believing that homosexuality is God’s way for them, I have yet to meet them. I can only go by my experience at this point.

  • http://toothface.blogspot.com Luke

    “I am CERTAIN that a unrepentant murderer is going to hell unless he/she does
    repent.” “questions for him when i see him in heaven…” Fishon

    and i’m unwilling to place myself in this position because only God knows where people are heading.. you however, have no problem putting yourself in the judgement seat. best of luck with that.

    “but I do believe that vast majority of “gays” are not born that way but are tempted into that kind of a lifestyle by a immoral culture that is soaked in sin and by a devil that is doing all he can to rip people away from Christ.” -Steve M.

    that would be true if all the messages we get are trying to turn us gay… but all of them are trying to turn us into really fashionable, hetero-sex gods, who drive the nice car, have the hot blonde, and wear the $800 jeans. sorry, more thought needed here.

  • rebecca

    Furthermore, issues about sexual morality come into play when people mistake love with lust.
    I thought that because I could not take my mind off of a guy friend that I was in love with him. Through prayer and seeking God’s wisdom I was able to see past that selfish feeling of wanting a sort of ownership over him to really loving him, and loving him completely…in the context of a friendship relationship. It isn’t any different. Marriage is just a friendship plus the sexual side of things. I don’t feel that I need to marry this kid in order to love him, and our friendship is without any sexual temptation because I love him too much to abuse the trust and respect we have as friends.
    So if God creates man and woman to fit together, and there are verses in the Bible that, at the very least, make homosexuality a huge argument and unclear jumble in the “is this sin” conversation, then why wouldn’t individual Christian homosexuals hold off? Why not just pursue friendships? I have found them to be very fulfilling in themselves. Plus Paul tells us that we should probably not get married unless we burn with lust anyways(1 cor 7).
    I feel like I have more to say, but I don’t know how I tie it together.

  • Anglican Gurl

    I whole-heartly agree with Luke’s post on on April 12th, 2009 at 3:30 pm where he said: “i see how many people project their own fears onto the “other.” we project our fear of sex and sexuality, fear of the high divorce rates, fear of looking at our own sins… ”

    As a member of the LGBTQ community I can assure everyone here that I didn’t choose my sexual preference. Why would I shoose this lifestyle that made me loose friends and family members, be looked down upon, be kicked out from many churches… Who would choose this?! Another thought: when did you choose to be hetero?

    If you think your friend is going to hell, then you aren’t really friends in my book. Like Luke said in that perfect post: “and i’m not buying the “love the sinner hate the sin” thing. remember when people thought it was a sin to be black because of Ham? remember that? that’d be like saying “I love LeBron James, i just hate the fact that he’s black.” sorry, try again.”

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Rebecca, Luke,

    There is no doubt that events can shape our sexuality, and many do mistake lust for love. We are born with natural urges that we ought learn to control.

    Overcoming our self centered urges is what becoming more human is all about. Otherwise we would be just like dogs ‘doing it on the street’.

    Luke, there are a great many “messages” out there regarding our sexuality. I don’t watch too many sit com type programs, or movies anymore, but it seemed to me that for awhile there almost all of them had the “gay” character who was shown in a very sympathetic and enlightened way.
    At the same time, the “Christian” character was shown in a derogatory fashion.

    There are plenty of mixed mesages oput there to young people who are not really set in their sexuality. This leads to a lot of experimentation and much less guilt over it than in days gone past.

    Guilt can be a very good thing when it helps to lead someone to repentance, which can bring someone to faith in Christ.

    When a society promotes a way of life, there will be an increase in that “way of life”…for better or for worse.

    That’s my opinion.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    “Why would I shoose this lifestyle that made me loose friends and family members, be looked down upon, be kicked out from many churches… Who would choose this?! Another thought: when did you choose to be hetero?”

    Many choose things that do not bring them joy or happiness or acceptance from their families.

    That is the nature of ‘sin’. it places to the desires of the self, of the pleasure, foremost, as opposed to what is the right thing to do. We all do it to some degree or another in our lives.

    Why do some men choose to have affairs? Who would choose that when it could lead to divorce and suffering and pain. The desires of lust and pleasure can overcome that which is right.

    I have been overcome by my desires. I spent many years in very harmful behaviors. I still battle some. But the Lord our God has delivered me from many. It is a struggle, a battle. But repentance and forgiveness is the shape of my life.

    I do not glory in my sin. I repent and pray to be healed.

    The Lord really does heal. He makes all things new.

  • rebecca

    “If you think your friend is going to hell, then you aren’t really friends in my book.”

    I’m glad I don’t follow your book, Anglican Gurl.
    I don’t know if my friend is going to hell, but I sure as HELL will not tell her that she is okay how she is if I am convinced by the compilation of my own experiences and scripture that she is in trouble. Sounds like I hate her, doesn’t it?

    Being born black and being homosexual are such different thoughts that I don’t know where to begin. How about with ‘my gay friend tells me that people are not born gay’ to start things off, and ‘ some boys in white pajamas making stupid boundaries of race doesn’t prove that other boundaries are stupid or wrong’ to finish?

    I can agree that society has promoted homosexuality.

  • fishon

    Luke said, on April 13th, 2009 at 10:26 am
    “I am CERTAIN that a unrepentant murderer is going to hell unless he/she does
    repent.” “questions for him when i see him in heaven…” Fishon

    and i’m unwilling to place myself in this position because only God knows where people are heading.. you however, have no problem putting yourself in the judgement seat. best of luck with that.
    *******Oh Luke, if you have read any of my posts you would know by now that when I say something like that—I glean it from the Bible. So lets try this:::::”But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the MURDERERS [my caps], the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
    ———I am CERTAIN that…based on the Bible–not my opinion.

    If you have a problem with my certainty as to what the Bible plainly says, then I am afraid you have bought into some of the garabage that the “fear to take any stand” have brain-washed you.
    fishon

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Plus Paul tells us that we should probably not get married unless we burn with lust anyways(1 cor 7).(Rebecca)

    Just the fact that you actually use this quote makes me very leery of how healthy your sense of sexuality is. Sex is very healthy and very normal for human beings. We were created with that as part of ourselves. Just because some Ancient book tells you what is or isnt sinful doesnt mean you have a clue what youre talking about. No wonder there is so much discord in the world. Good Christians such as yourself think you know what constitutes healthy sexuality, Geez. Why oh why would anyone want to listen, especially seeing as you have such great embassadors to set the example, Jim Baker, Ted Haggart………….and the list isnt finished.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    fishon

    I glean this from the bible too. Why not tell me exactly what Jesus meant when he said this, oh mind reader that you are.

    John 12:32

    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

    Also interesting how Jesus makes no mention of Homosexuality, hmmm. Paul does, but maybe he was a closet Gay man struggling with his Gayness and all his buddies reminded him how unwelcome he would be if he came out.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    “Good Christians such as yourself think you know what constitutes healthy sexuality, Geez.”

    There is no such a thing as a “good Christian”.

    There are only forgiven sinners who trust in the Lord Jesus for their righteousness.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=7536gREd6yo&feat=directlink faithlessinfatima

    Rebecca…it appears from yr comments that some of yr friends might be exihibiting a type of behaviour that might be more be more pathological than biological. We learn learn early that we’ve evolved to like pleasure more than pain,so if emotional pain becomes unbearable, then that muddied water seeks the course of least resistance (food,sex,drugs,gambling…even religion…what ever can change our mood and help us to avoid the pain) It’s likely that some of yr friends might return to hetero if that is their true sexual orientation,but then again, psychic pain can be a jealous mistress.

  • fishon

    “I love LeBron James, i just hate the fact that he’s black.” sorry, try again.”
    ———-That doesn’t play at all. The Bible never says that being black is a sin; whereas, it does say the practice of homosexuality is.
    fishon

  • fishon

    Steve said: Why would I shoose this lifestyle that made me loose friends and family members,
    ———–Amen, Steve. Why did I choose to be a drunk for years and hurt my family? Well, some Scientist and Dr. say that it is gene, a diease—but the Bible calls it sin. Who do I listen to? If I go by the Drs., well being a drunk is normal for me cause it is something I was born with–I drink, I become a drunk. I don’t think so.
    fishon

  • Anglican Gurl

    Wow.. I think I’ll stop now. The extent of your delusion is clear now… Homosexuals are akin to murders and drunks.

    I never made a choice to be gay, I have always been attracted to women as long as I can remember. If you think we’re enculturated, we’d all be straight. If it comes from our parents, we’d all be straight. If we choose, believe me I would have chosen to be straight, but that’s not how the biology is stacked. It’s the same as being black and yes the Bible has been used to call black a sin, read your church history.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    well being a drunk is normal for me cause it is something I was born with–I drink, I become a drunk. (fishon)

    Youre right, you are a dysfunctional(sinful) individual with addictive genes. Now youre choice of drug is your religion.

  • fishon

    Oops, I think I hear some static from outer space on this channel.
    I thought sure I turned it off a couple of days ok.
    fishon

  • ttm

    fishon,

    Your cruelty just breaks my heart. I’m sad for the people who feel compelled to defend the comments you constantly critique. I’m afraid that the spirit behind your words will do nothing to draw people toward God and the truth of His gospel–but will do much to keep people away. I know an atheist who has a few gay friends–they occasionally read David’s blog and are following this thread very carefully. I have heard you called a “hater” and you have been mentioned as “just one more reason I would never want to be a Christian.” Does that bother you at all?

    Telling people they don’t have evidence, they don’t know what they believe, and they don’t need to bother to reply since what they think is a load of crap is arrogant. Calling people obsessed, blind, yappers, or those with thoughts from “outer space” is nothing other than cruel. You said that MURDERERS end up in a fiery lake of burning sulphur…Jesus said that if you call your brother a fool you are a MURDERER. Where does that leave you?

    I mean, it wouldn’t be loving of us “true believers” to let you burn in torment forever, would it? We need to warn you of where your sins of pride and hate are taking you…right? That is what true love does, right? I love you too much to let you burn in Hell you murderous, prideful, hate-filled FRIEND.

    Repent (and MAKE it a good day!) :^)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    You people crack me up.

    You hear only what you want to hear.

    Fishon said UNREPENTANT MURDERERS go to hell.

    UNREPENTANT ANYTHINGS go to hell.

    Those that do not have faith go to hell.

    Actually, Jesus will make that call, but the Bible clearly says there is a hell, and Jesus often refers to the fact that there will be a seperation of peoples. Those that the Father knows and those that He doesn’t know.

    That Fishon wants people to repent so that they might come (by God’s grace) to faith…make him a hater??????? Hello!!!! Un- Be- Lieve- Able

    Read what he says, and take out your presupositions.

  • ttm

    Steve,

    So, I guess unrepentent haters and people who call others “good-for-nothings” go to Hell, too??????

    See Matheww 5:22. JESUS said it, I didn’t!!!!!!!!

    You DO believe the BIBLE, right??????????

    Like I said before, I’m just trying to HELP fishon. He NEEDS to repent. And, listen, I’m NOT being mean. I’m being LOVING!!!!!

    I don’t know why you wouldn’t consider my exhortation to stop sinning HELPFUL and KIND. Or maybe it’s just my use of CAPITAL LETTERS AND MULTIPLE PUNCTUATION MARKS you find offensive.

    UN-BE-LIEVE-ABLE! ;^)

  • ttm

    Oh, my goodness. It hurts to type like that.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    “So, I guess unrepentent haters and people who call others “good-for-nothings” go to Hell, too??????”

    Yes.

    Unrepentant anythings.

    According to your standards, Jesus was a hater, because He also tried to warn people to not live in sin and to repent.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Steve and fishon

    Im still waiting for an answer.

    John 12:32

    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

    You guys seem to avoid this remark by JESUS. Tell me what do you think he meant by it? Seems pretty clear dont ya think? Afterall it is in the Bible, so it must be true.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Come on boys, lets all go Cherry picking. You find the ones who says were all done for, and I will find all the ones that say we are ALL included. This could be fun. Are you up for it?

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Luke 23:34

    And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do

    Your turn.

  • ttm

    I think there’s a subtle, but important, difference in stating your opinion or concern in a loving way based on what you believe to be true and judging people in a condescending and arrogant manner based on your own prideful belief that what you believe to be true is identical to God’s mind and heart.

  • fishon

    ttm asked::: have heard you called a “hater” and you have been mentioned as “just one more reason I would never want to be a Christian.” Does that bother you at all?
    ——Well, my answer certainly won’t endear me to you. But no, it doesn’t bother me. I was once one of them–and I did just what you say they do—-but to use me as a reason to not follow God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is just an excuse. If it wasn’t me, it would be something else. Now I am sure you will not agree, but that is what I truely believe.

    YOU:You said that MURDERERS end up in a fiery lake of burning sulphur
    ——-No I did NOT. See, you read into what I say what you want. I was thinking someone might accuse me of saying that, but I didn’t think it would be you. So lets see what I said::::::::::::QUOTE::::::::::::”But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the MURDERERS [my caps], the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”——ttm, that is a DIRECT QUOTE for Revelation 21:8 from the New International Version.

    If you can find anywhere where I said:::that MURDERERS end up in a fiery lake of burning sulphur”———-I will apoligize immediately. But I quoted the Bible. Your agreement is with the Apostle John who wrote Revelation.

    I did say “I am CERTAIN that a unrepentant murderer is going to hell unless he/she does.” ttm——I said UNREPENTANT.

    As far as you warning me about the sin you see in me—–I am certainly ok with that. It doesn’t make me think less of you—it makes me think more of you—that you would have enough Christian love to tell me.
    fishon

    ——-

  • ttm

    fishon, please forgive my misunderstanding. If I understand correctly now, the direct quote from Scripture did NOT include a condition of “repentence.” So I guess, if I take only that particular verse at face value–repentence is an extraBiblical issue in this case. ALL cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, idolators, practicers of witchcraft, liars, and the sexually immoral will experience the Second Death. It was YOUR statement which added the condition of repentence. Do I have that right?

    Do you happen to know if other translations of Scripture use the same phrase “a fiery lake of burning sulphur”–or is it just the NIV that uses this phrase?

  • fishon

    ttm said, on April 13th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
    fishon, please forgive my misunderstanding. If I understand correctly now, the direct quote from Scripture did NOT include a condition of “repentence.” So I guess, if I take only that particular verse at face value–repentence is an extraBiblical issue in this case. ALL cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, idolators, practicers of witchcraft, liars, and the sexually immoral will experience the Second Death. It was YOUR statement which added the condition of repentence. Do I have that right?
    ————-Yes you have that right. But of course you know that I could go to other scriptures and show the need for repentance. Acts 2:38 would be just one example. It all fites together quite well.

    ————-So, what is your idea and belief about repentance and sin?
    fishon

    ————-Well, KJV says::”…in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.” New American Standard same as KJV——-New Living Translation says: “…the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    TfT,

    He will draw all people to Himself for the Last Judgment.

    Then He will seperate the sheep (those who hear His voice and that He knows) from the goats (those He does not know).

  • fishon

    Steve,
    Good comment. TfT apparently doesn’t read or chooses to ignore what we write. I told him a while back I was done exchanging with him.

    Anyway, there is this scripture that you will understand lends much to ‘draw all people.’ Steven told some of the Jews in Acts 7:51b, “You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit.” The Holy Spirit {God} was drawing them to God the Father, but Steven makes it clear, they resisted the drawing of the Holy Spirt.

    TfT, by his own profession is not a believer. So he will not understand much Biblical truth [man I'll hear it for that, but I will use scripture which some dislike us to do to prove it].
    1 Cor. 2:14 “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because that are spiritually discerned.”

    Steve, I grow weary of all this. I think I will take a break for a day or two. Well, maybe.
    fishon

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Fishon,

    Good points, my friend. I don’t blame you for being weary. Me too.

    My given name is Stephen (named after the 1st martyr).

    Take care, and God bless!

    – Steve

  • Matt

    As I’m reading this post, the advert at the bottom of the page is for gay singles… “Browse Photos Now! JOIN FREE!”.

    Now that ad bot has got a sense of humour – and irony!

  • Gabriel

    Guys we all set a new record on comments! See together we can accomplish great things! :-)

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    fishon

    You know its funny, sometimes I can be a real shithead and sometimes I can see others as real shitheads. And seeing as were having some Bible study here, I was remineded of a verse of where that comes from(Us being shitheads). ;)

    Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    I wonder, do you believe Jesus created Evil?

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    Is there a way for us to express our opinions, even wildly differing from others, without name-calling or being mean-spirited? Apparently some of us didn’t learn everything we needed to know in kindergarten, and that is how to play and fight fair and how not to be mean.

  • ttm

    Good morning, fishon.

    You asked about my beliefs about sin and repentence. Let me tell you first how I view the Bible–I believe that it is a LIVING book and like any organism can’t be neatly or easily divided into little compartments and perspectives. It is far more mysterious and “gray” (I’m guessing you’ll take issue with that word–because I know you like things black and white.) than I was ever taught to believe. I am not convinced that any human being can ever TRULY and CORRECTLY interpret Scripture in it’s entirety. And I feel that those who get to a point where they believe their interpretation is GOD’s interpretation become dangerous to the body of Christ and to themselves.

    As far as sin and repentence, I have a lot of thoughts about those things. I’m not really sure what type of information you’re seeking…

    Thank you for information about how various translations describe the Second Death. I’m going to do a little more investigation on my own about that and the issue of homosexuality. I was hoping to put some of these questions about Hell and sexuality in the “Things to Look At Someday” category, but they just keep showing up on my doorstep every time I turn around. So I guess I need to revisit the issues with my heart and mind.

    Gabriel, regarding the comment record, I guess I’m doing my part, eh? ;-)

  • fishon

    nakedpastor said, on April 14th, 2009 at 10:27 am
    Is there a way for us to express our opinions, even wildly differing from others, without name-calling or being mean-spirited?
    ———David, you have got to be kidding me? Many of your cartoons are as ‘mean-spirited’ toward people of my persuasion as anything I have said. That you may deny; however, that won’t change the fact that there are a few of us who would disagree with you. The eye of the beholder my friend, eye of the beholder.
    fishon

  • fishon

    ttm said, on April 14th, 2009 at 10:49 am
    Good morning, fishon.

    You asked about my beliefs about sin and repentence. Let me tell you first how I view the Bible–I believe that it is a LIVING book and like any organism can’t be neatly or easily divided into little compartments and perspectives. It is far more mysterious and “gray” (I’m guessing you’ll take issue with that word–because I know you like things black and white.) than I was ever taught to believe. I am not convinced that any human being can ever TRULY and CORRECTLY interpret Scripture in it’s entirety. And I feel that those who get to a point where they believe their interpretation is GOD’s interpretation become dangerous to the body of Christ and to themselves.

    ———Yes, I would disagree with you that the Bible is a LIVING book—that is if you mean that the doctrinces and principles can change with each generation or two.

    ——–ttm, I believe there are some gray areas in the Bible. But that is found from person to person. Example: Assisted suicide. Many conservative Christians would say that it is a sin——but I wander in the gray area on that one. However, the gray area problem is my problem—it isn’t a problem for some. Some see it as black and white, and I can understand that, and I have no problem with people on either side of the issue.

    ——-I agree that no individual can interprete the scriptures correctly in its entirety.

    ——-One major problem that comes up over and over again is the folks that just hate/dislike people like me who are confident in what they believe. If I have a doctrine figured out [think I do] and debate from the point that I understand what it means, then I/others get labeled arrogant–and we are labeled arrogant just because the other hasn’t figured out what I have. But the Bible tells us to study–learn–search out–be good Berans, and would you not agree that some people have a better understanding of what a particular doctrine means, is saying than others. My goodness, my professors know and understand much more than me and they are confident in what they know—–but the student does not call them arrogant.

    I do agree that there certainly can be arrogance. But to many people confuse confidence with arrogance. There are many people struggling with what they believe–but why to many of them call someone arrogant when they know and are confident in there belief? How many times have I heard, “I am not sure of what I believe, but you are arrogant because you know and stand up for what you believe.” Just because you [generic you] don’t know does not mean that I don’t know. But many people on this blog site do just that——-”I don’t know, therefore you CAN’T know either.”

    By the way, I don’t know what the last days will look like exactly, however, there are those, and many at that who will say I will go to hell if I don’t believe the way they believe about the Rapture, Tribulation and such. Some of them are big time fellows that I have heard say that with my own ears. But you know what—it bothers me not that they think that—-I still like some of them, and others, well….

    ——–Got to go. Off to the DR.s
    fishon

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Apparently some of us didn’t learn everything we needed to know in kindergarten, and that is how to play and fight fair and how not to be mean.(David)

    Not all of us went to the same kindergarten. I wonder though, when you think of fighting, what comes to your mind? Now if you are talking about debating, I think you may be on to something. So with that I would ask fishon and Steve, “Is it a fight or a debate we’re all having”? By the way, I sometimes use harsh language when I debate. ;)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ steve martin

    Debate/argument.

    I have no problem with harsh language as long as it is honest and to the issue at hand and not an ad-hominem attack.

    We don’t really need to call names…like “hater” when there is no proof as such.

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon:

    Let’s say I am a chef who runs a restaurant to cook and serve his own unique culinary creations. He realized from the start that his food would not be popular, but he thought it was so unique and avant garde and delicious and healthy that he gave it a shot. His clientele started out very small, but over the years it has grown and continues to grow every day. He is delightedly surprised with the diversity of his customers: gay, straight, all different races from all different countries, different ages and gender, different religions and denominations from within those religions, fundamentalists and liberals and, well, all sorts! It is a remarkable blend of a wide diversity of people. And this, along with the food, has become the competing factor that attracts people to his restaurant.

    You have been one of the customers for a long time. But, curiously, you constantly complain about the cook, the cooking, and the people eating it and complimenting the chef. You never seems happy with anything about this restaurant. It doesn’t matter what I cook, what you eat, or what anybody says (except maybe Steve Martin), that I am really perplexed as to why you keep coming here to eat. In fact, sometimes you have even vomited on others without apology. You seem unaware of your influence on my clientele. There are plenty of popular restaurants around that serve your kind of food, but you want to keep coming back here. Okay, fine. Let’s work on that possibility.

    I love the fact that you keep coming. Like I said, I am interested in the diversity of the clientele because for me it is a manifestation of the beloved community I strive to realize in my lifetime. I am not interested in changing the menu, unless of course I’m inspired to change it. Because it is MY restaurant. I am not interested in, say, switching to a burger joint just to get more customers or be more culinarily correct. I’m on to something here, and I intend to go for it.

    So: why do you keep coming? You are mean to me, you hate my meals, and you despise my customers. What’s up with that? My suspicions are that:
    1. you secretly love my food but can’t admit it;
    2. you secretly love my clientele but won’t admit it;
    3. you’re publicly trying to shut me down and convert my clients.

    Seriously, I’d love you to stay because you represent a segment of the world that has just as much right to this community as any other segment. But I’m asking you to please analyze why you are behaving in such a malicious manner as a guest on this open forum. I’ve been tempted many times under pressure from several people that I should block you from this site (because I have lost customers because of you). But that would go against the very thing I am passionate about, and that is inclusion. You come dangerously close, and have in fact crossed the line more than once, to severely abusing others, and it is getting to the point where I will become an accomplice to your violence if I don’t do something about it.

    Please. Just… please. Consider this.

    david (moderator)

  • fishon

    David,
    I will take your words of advise in advisement.

    But I would ask you one thing in reference to me “…severely abusing others.” Please give me a couple of examples of ‘severe abuse’ by me. That should not take much time as it seems as if it has been often if several people have asked you to block me.

    I hope you will take time and reply to my request. Too I hope you can show me, if true, ‘sever abuse’ as opposed to differences of opinion.
    That you,
    jerry [fishon]

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon:
    Thanks for responding. Please give me some time to respond. It took me days (in fact, a culmination of months) to write what I wrote. Because I want to be kind to you. I want to make every effort for us, from far ends of different spectrums, to dwell together in peace. Even though our thoughts might be divided, we don’t have to be.
    david

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    fishon

    I know we differ and Im still sure I could sit down and have a beverage with you. Debating is fun, even when its fiery. You dont offend me even when I think youre completely wrong. ;)

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    agreed tft. debate is healthy. i’m for it.

  • fishon

    David,
    No problem with the wait. We both are and can be busy guys.
    jerry

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon:

    I’ve been thinking. Rather than comb through all comments and find certain instances (which would be laborious… because, like you say, we are busy guys), I’d rather tell you a story.

    A couple of years ago a good friend’s fiance committed suicide. He was my friend too and attended our community when he was in town. We all loved him. He loved the Lord. But the burdens of life overwhelmed him and he killed himself. I blogged about it often about two years ago. Go back if you want.

    One Sunday soon after, we were praying for the family and allowed people to express their grief as well as their support for the family and friends left. It was a very meaningful and healing time for our community. There was a man visiting with his wife and I think a friend that day. After all the grief was expressed as well as love for those left behind, this man belted out, “He’s in Hell! He’s in Hell right now! Committing suicide is an unforgivable sin. So I have to tell you all that he’s burning in Hell right now as we speak!” He escaped with his life. I’m joking about that. But his comment ended the service. I tried to deal with it as lovingly and pastorally as possible, but the damage was done.

    The man was wrong. I believe he was wrong ideologically, theologically and philosophically. But I don’t care about that. We all disagree on something. It’s more than that! He was wrong humanly, socially, emotionally, spiritually. He was an insensitive brute who believed ideas are more important to protect than people. With a few choice inherited words he sliced open the hearts of many people who still quiver at the thought of him. It felt like a sociopathic attack. He was scary.

    In my opinion, he was abusive in that situation. He was unaware of his surroundings. And if he was aware, then he was insensitive to them. I work hard… real hard… to create a safe forum for anyone and everyone to participate in. I am a Christian pastor who invites all and sundry come, and I realize that is an offense to some. But this is me. And this is the nature of this forum. I can’t express to you the delight it is for me to peacefully dialog with a diversity of people. Let’s take, for example, two people groups who have appeared on this site: atheists and gays. It delights me that my gay friends can find a forum in which they feel welcomed, included, heard, understood, respected, appreciated, etc., etc.. And it delights me that a gay woman, say, can find a place where she might actually find a portal on this site back into the church that rejected her. I find it abusive to tell them a gay person, in this context, that she is going to burn in Hell. She won’t be back. And an atheist friend of mine who actually admitted he wanted to hear more about this Jesus that I was talking about because it didn’t sound like the same Jesus who was told rejected him. After experiencing his plight on this site, he said he wouldn’t be returning just to experience the same rigidity he left his faith over.

    If I believed like you believed and wanted to participate in this forum, perhaps I would say something like, “You know, (gay person), I’ve always been taught and have always believed gay people are sinners and are going to Hell. I’m glad we can converse because my heart (which says I love you) and my head (which says you are going to Hell) are in conflict with each other. Perhaps, if we continue in relationship together, there might be some resolution to this conflict that I feel. For now, I want to love you and I, like God, will suspend judgment because I don’t understand this mystery. I think I know what the scripture says, but maybe I’m reading it wrong.” (Not exactly like that, but you get what I mean.)

    That’s what I mean. I don’t agree with some of your beliefs. Surprise surprise, right?! What’s new? I welcome dissent, disagreement, dialog and the love of diversity.

    with affection…
    david

  • fishon

    David,
    Well written and easy to understand.

    Though you weren’t looking for my opinion on the story of the guy who screamed Hell because of suicide, I am in total agreement with you. In fact, you probably acted more Christ-like than I would have towards him.

    Let me address a couple of things you wrote. Then I will take a few days to consider my continued particapation in your blog.

    First and foremost, I have a Christ-like love for ALL unrepentant sinners. I am not unhealthely hung up on the gay issue. The subject of gay came up because that was the subject and part of your title. If it had been about a drunk, murderer, idol worshipper, Muslim, etc, I would have and do have the same concerns.

    If you remember, a year and a half or so ago I was severely taken to task for how I dealt with a fellow who started attending the church I pastor, who by HIS ADMISSION was a drunk. I made the mistake of saying on this blog what and how I dealt with the fellow. So in the end, sin is the issue—not which sin is addressed. And it really doesn’t matter which one that is brought up–there will always be the defenders of the sin[ner].

    I have the same concerns because of love for all—if not, the pedophilo would not have been allow to come to worship service. What did Jesus say as to why he came to earth. Among several reason, chief was “…to seek and save what was lost.” We pastors, especially, are an extention for the Lord in seeking and saving the lost. In order to do that we must point out to people that they are lost. And that is a messy thing to do, especially in our modern society.

    David, you said, “And it delights me that a gay woman, say, can find a place where she might actually find a portal on this site back into the church that rejected her.”
    ———I guess this is a big part of our differences. If that woman comes back and is talked to about her homosexuality, will she get mad and say the church rejects her for who she is? Or will the church leave well enough alone and let her continue in her homosexual practices? If the church she returns to, whether it was the first one she left or a new one, does not address her sin, then that church is not showing biblical love. You apparently think that is love–ignoring the sin and having relationship. I don’t see the Bible teaching it. All throught the Bible sin is confronted–why? Because of love–love that wants to help a sinner not land in hell.

    I will address this last paragraph and stop.

    You said;;;;; If I believed like you believed and wanted to participate in this forum, perhaps I would say something like, “You know, (gay person), I’ve always been taught and have always believed gay people are sinners and are going to Hell. I’m glad we can converse because my heart (which says I love you) and my head (which says you are going to Hell) are in conflict with each other.
    ——-A couple things.
    #1. I have said much less provocative than that and been vilified. I know you don’t have time to check, but it is so.

    #2. David, just the admission of thinking that practicing homosexuality is sin brings out anger. It isn’t a matter of how I or anyone says it——most of them aren’t looking for saying it in a gentle, nice way——-they are looking for affirmation of their lifestyle choice. A couple of homosexuals have responded to what I said, and I put my opinion out there in a much more gentle way that your above suggestion—-and it still got me labeled.

    #3. My heart saying I love you [to the sinner] and my my head saying you are going to hell, I do not believe is a conflict.

    When Jesus says Matthew 5:22b, “But anyone who says ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.” I view that statement of the warning of hell as a tremdous picture of love. Love warns of the dangers up ahead——indifference says nothing.

    When Jesus warns in Matt. 10:28b, “Rather be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell,” love is dripping all over the verse. Warning of danger–love———–indifference—????

    David, read Matt. 23. Oh man, all the ‘woe to you’ there is in that chapter. It is full of condemnation—–however—-take a look at verse 37–and love is flowing from Jesus’s heart like blood for those he has just taken to task.

    YOU: Perhaps, if we continue in relationship together, there might be some resolution to this conflict that I feel. For now, I want to love you and I, like God, will suspend judgment because I don’t understand this mystery. I think I know what the scripture says, but maybe I’m reading it wrong.” (Not exactly like that, but you get what I mean.)”

    —————-David, please answer this: “…and I, like God, will suspend judgment because I don’t understand this mystery.”

    Answer my question because you owe it to me as a pastor to show me if I am wrong. QUESTION: Where does it teach in the Bible that God SUSPEND[ED] JUDGMENT?

    And lastly——though you might not understand the mystery, does that mean that someone no one else can understand the mystery?

    Enough of defending my self. And if you choose not to answer me——PLEASE answer the one about God suspend[ing] judgment.

    In Christ’s love,
    jerry

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon:

    Thanks again for taking time to respond. The suspension of judgment, to me, is the working definition of grace. And, yes, that’s my final answer.

    I do appreciate your presence on this blog. I wouldn’t want you to leave. You bring your particular perspective to this forum and enrich the diversity represented here. I’m trying to learn how to be a better pastor in my local community, as well as a better moderator of this online one. I’m deficient in so many ways. But I want to learn how to dialog with various voices and help to create a beloved community, no matter how diverse the participants are or how heated the discussions get. I want to get better at this. All I’m asking is that you agree to continue to learn how to participate better also. If we both agree to try to improve ourselves and become better co-citizens of this community, then I am happy with that.
    sincerely,
    david

  • fishon

    David,
    Grace! I wonder if though if both thieves on the crosses received grace? I know one did–but I don’t know if judgment was suspended for the other—-at least we are not told about him—–but we do know about the one bound for paradise.

    “…deficient in so many ways.”
    ——Well, there is a very big club of us walking this earth.

    “improve”
    —–Well, I don’t doubt I have room for that.

    “…better co-citizen.’
    ——Room for that too.
    jerry

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon: that’s workable.

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    actually, more than workable. thanks very much.

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    Gosh darn Dad, does that mean I have to play nice with Jerry from now on?? :)

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=7536gREd6yo&feat=directlink faithlessinfatima

    oh oh!….Elder Brother Syndrome Alert! ;)

  • Gabriel

    David, you should go and work for the UN! Thanks for your example of humility and honesty-you display a rare and special combination of those two!

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    If I didn’t love you, I wouldn’t be so hurt about whether you’re going to Hell or not. Or which sins are sins.

    Why don’t people get mad at me?

    I keep coming because of the people. Even though some of my friends think it’s unhealthy. They’re still willing to pray for you (on both sides).

    Fishy – if you’re not a baptist what are you??

    And possibly off-topic:
    the guy shouldn’t have said that about hell – once you’re dead, there’s nothing to be done anyways. But was he wrong? I’ve done a lot of searching about suicide, and it seems to be definitely a sin – it’s murder, it’s defacing god’s image, it’s definitely not continuing in the faith, it’s probably selfish. i think even contemplating it might be bad, and attempted suicide is bad, but if it’s only attempt, you get another chance. But how do you repent of suicide? how do you repent of wanting to die? and how do you stop falling back into it?

  • fishon

    Semety said:::Fishy – if you’re not a baptist what are you??
    ———–Wrong.———-And why put a black mark on the baptist by guessing I’m one of um. Hehehe.

    You know, I have done a lot of thinking about suicide, especially since I live in a State that has assisted suicide as law.

    Now what I am going to say may seem gross, but it is real. I use to be dead set against any suicide, but a few years back, one of the first to get assisted suicide in the State came out and explained why he was going to do it. He had cancer of the intestines and other regions. He was vomiting his owen feces; gross I know, but that is what he and his Dr. said. I got to thinking about that, and I tell you, my thoughts on suicide started to mellow. It appears as you disagree with me on this, and that is fine. However, for me, well, I just don’t know if I see that as murder.

    Now I hesitate to say this, but I will. Last week I was a the Dr. I happen to mention to a trainy that I thought that something was eating at the inside of my nose. She took a look and left immediately for the Dr. He came in a took a look. Yep, there is a hole and there seems to be some eating away. The Dr. mentioned the big C., but is passing me off to a Ear, Nose, and Throat Dr. Now I don’t know what will come of it, but I tell you that to say this.

    I am not afraid to die, but the mind runs wild, so it has done that in the middle of the night. What if I do have cancer and they need to cut up my face, or worse, they can’t stop it and it eats away at my face? Semety, I am tough, brave, and can take just about anything; however, when I think of the possibilies I honestly can’t say what I would do if…. Now other kinds of cancers don’t get me worked up, but the thought of…does. I am definitly not afraid to die–but to endure the possilities, I can’t say I wouldn’t speed up death just a little.

    Of course, I am hoping it doesn’t come to that, and if it does I hope that I will endure to the end. But there are some really horrible ways to die, and I am not so sure how far goes on that murder thing with suicide?

    I think I disagree with your position, but I hope that people won’t jump on you because you have offended some of them because they have had family or friends commit suicide. You just take a certain position on a tough matter.
    fishon

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    Wow fishon. Thinking of you… as always.

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    I’ll be honest – I have been hospitalised for suicide attempts. And that’s my stand. Just so people don’t think I’m not coming from anywhere with this. I’ve read certain things in the Bible that suggest.. I’m not sure. I have PTSD, but I think it may be a sin to use it as an excuse for despair. I don’t know if that makes sense? rejoicing is a command in some places – I’m pretty sure that doesn’t mean we can’t feel sad, but that we shouldn’t act on our feelings?

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    fishon

    I read somewhere once that there are 2 motivating factors in life

    1. The pursuit of pleasure
    2. The avoidance of pain

    #2 is the bigger motivator.

    My brother committed suicide because of the pain he was in. I have always wondered if it worked.

  • fishon

    Thank you, NP.

    Semety, wow, taking a stand on that issue while possibly being directly affected by it is courageous and Holy Spirit led.

    TfT, sorry about your brother.
    fishon

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    i’m not so brave – my friends help. I know sometimes my personal opinions are different from the bible, but I try to believe what the bible says. I try not to let my opinions affect my beliefs, but it’s easier to say it than act on it.

    but sometimes there’s things that the bible doesn’t help much, then you need other people. I’m pretty sure I’m the newest Christian among my friends, and the youngest except for the kids at church.

    It’s my brother’s birthday today. He turned 18. I’m afraid he’s gonna become a child molester, but I don’t know what to do.

    If we try to escape aren’t we going against God’s plan?

    Hell scares me. The whole idea – it seems like it would be inhuman not to have problems with Hell. and we certainly care more about our friend hurting then about the fact they’re damaging god’s image…

    I don’t know.

    My last attempt was a couple weeks ago. It was my first since I was saved. My pastor is also my counsellor – he told me to repent. He had verses to back himself up. I trust his judgement.

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    Fishy – what’s your name so I can pray for you?

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    Semety: Could I make a suggestion? I’m not contradicting your pastor. But I sometimes worry that, in spite of our best intentions, we are not helpful to others when we try. Can I suggest, perhaps, getting a second opinion? Sure, repentance might be something you want to do. But there’s more at work than just, say, sin. Sometimes our inner illnesses can be addressed and even healed.

  • fishon

    Semety,
    Contacted me at pastorkrew@hotmail.com, please.

    As you know, David and I don’t agree on many things; however, I am in COMPLETE agreement with him when he says: “But there’s more at work than just say sin. Sometimes our inner illnesses [and we all have them] can be addressed and even healed.”

    One more day, my friend, always push on to one more day. For the possiblities for tomorrow are waiting for you to make it to tomorrow, and there is always a tomorrow until God calls us home.
    jerry [fishon]

  • Gabriel

    Jerry this is the first time I dare to write to you. In your last few posts I see a non judgemental human side to you wich I like very much. I even stopped getting nightmares about you wanting to throw me into hell ;-). How about showing this side more often in your contributions to this blog?

  • fishon

    Gabriel,
    I hesitate to write you because as you know, most of us humans like to be liked. And I sense that you might be saying, “Oh, this guy isn’t so bad, he might be a good guy after all.” And I hate to blow that thought.

    Rest assured, I do NOT want to throw you or anyone into hell. Well, that is not completely true. The flesh part of me would throw some into hell, but I seriously doubt that any of the kind hang around religious blog much. I am 99% positive that none of those that I would throw into hell have contributed to this blog site. But, I am not God, so I do NOT have any say as to anyones place after physical death, anyway.

    I am not sure how to show a more ‘non-judgemental’ side of me when in debate about hot-button issues. For to some people, to disagree with them on any subject–or to call something as sin because of what the Bible says is to be labeled “judgemental.”

    Maybe I have to do what I did earlier this morning. I wrote a comment to David’s latest post, re-read it a couple of times, then hit delete. I deleted, not because what I said, but because to say it would cause some to see me as just being argumentative. In reality, those who have labeled me as judgemental, hater, bigot, intolerant, have somewhat quieted my voice, but that does not change my opinions.

    None-the-less, I am very happy that you do see a human side to me. It is the dominating side of me–not because of me, but because of Jesus and his teachings. Sometimes, this communication venue makes it hard to see.
    jerry

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon: I hope you don’t mind me replying to your comment intended for Gabriel. One thing I want to make clear to you: don’t lose your fire. I’m not asking to kill the beast. Just tame it. I’m not one of those Christians who would like to turn all men into wimps. You are a passionate man with strong opinions. I value that, and so does this forum.

  • Gabriel

    Fision I can truly AMEN what NP just said. I guess I’m just as judgemental if I label you that way!

  • Memnon

    It’s interesting that so many “Christians” oppose homosexuality so vehemently, pointing to OT scripture as their authority. Yet they continually choose to limit or misread those scriptures, which also call for the execution of gays. Where is their consistency? I thought they were wanting to see God’s moral law enforced? And of course, that’s quite understandable, it’s so much easier than love.

    As long as they’re wanting to see God’s moral laws enforced, perhaps they can also work to see slavery legalized again. After all, it’s right there in the Torah, with those verses about homosexuality.

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    How do I say this? Before I was saved – I went to counsellors, I was in the hospital, I was on antidepressants, I had very bad PTSD (flashbacks, nightmares, panic attacks), voices in my head, cutting, depression, etc.. I stopped taking the pills after I overdosed, and stopped going to a counsellor because it didn’t help much.

    After I was saved – the voices disappeared, the PTSD symptoms decreased significantly (I can hug my friends now), I struggle with stopping cutting, but it’s a lot easier, and I haven’t done it in awhile. Repenting helped more than counsellors or pills ever did. But it’s hard changing thoughts that have been around for awhile.

    My friends said it would hurt them if I died, but it’s hard to believe them in that state. But one thing that helped me was an old guy who’s my friend said that “God owns us” He made us, and he redeemed us, so he owns us twice. that doesn’t scare as much as it used to when God kept reminding me of my dad

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/mrmagoos57/DropBox?authkey=7536gREd6yo&feat=directlink faithlessinfatima

    Memnon….I agree, the selectivity issue often gets under the wire…it has been known for a long time that much of the OT is below our understanding of what is moral, but doesn’t seem to deter those who want to cherry-pick

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    Someone’s explained to me (I’m not sure I agree) that the OT can be divided into ceremonial, cultural and moral law. Also the NT trumps OT – sabbath, unclean animals, sacrifices, circumcision were all repealed or fufilled.

    From what I’ve read (I’m not sure on this) – the death penalty is regulated, and there has to be witnesses or something. I don’t like the idea of a death penalty – because that means sending people to Hell, but if it weren’t for that, it would be good. And I think it’s what’s supposed to happen.

    On slavery – this is a response from one of my friends to a questionnaire. The question was something like why does the bible support slavery if it’s clearly wrong?

    ” First, I have to ask, who is he to say “slavery is clearly wong”? He has no moral standard other than his own opinions.

    He’s right, the Bible does not condemn slavery. Therefore, he is wrong, slavery is not clearly wrong.

    The Bible condemns kidnapping, something often associated with (but not necessarily equated with) slavery.

    The Bible regulates slavery and condemns oppression of slaves. Slavery was often a way to pay a debt – an irresponsible person who could not manage his own life (and pay his debts) would be put in a position where he would have to work and be supervised more closely. We may not realize it, but this natural consequence happens even today in a way: a person who works hard on his own will end up on top (eg. running his own business) and a person who slacks off will end up having to work for someone else and take orders”

  • http://TitforTat6.blogspot.com TitforTat

    He’s right, the Bible does not condemn slavery. Therefore, he is wrong, slavery is not clearly wrong.(Semety)

    You may want to re-evaluate stopping your medication.

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    That was a quote from a friend – I’m not sure I agree exactly. There’s cultural context though, if you read the whole thing.

    and my medication has nothing to do with it.

  • http://www.goingandsowing.com/ Semety

    plus – the bible condemns oppression of slaves.


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