dick in a box

Stupid and hateful things are being said every day in the name of religion.

Those who do so believe they are being inspired by their god and endorsed by their holy book.

Actually, the root of their hatred is not their god or their book, but their own heart. They’re dicks in boxes they’ve inherited, modified and made for themselves.

From bitter springs comes bitter water.

(The title of this cartoon is inspired by a SNL skit by Justin Timberlake.)

Own the original drawing.
Buy a print of this cartoon.
Get my book full of cartoons like this one from amazon.com, amazon.ca, amazon.de.

About David Hayward

David Hayward runs the blog nakedpastor as a graffiti artist on the walls of religion where he critiques religion… specifically Christianity and the church. He also runs the online community The Lasting Supper where people can help themselves discover, explore and live in spiritual freedom.

  • kls

    Very true. But when you are searching for the fresh waters, where can you find them?

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    that’s difficult.

  • http://samscoville.blogspot.com/ sam scoville

    After seeing some of the responses you’ve got the past few days–understand this cartoon and (may I call it) the Fundamentalist Agony for them pulling out and away–and yet still stuck, whipping the tar baby so to speak. (Look at the face of that in-the-box “pastor.” Lot of pain and hate reflected in the representation, yes?) Fear and Hate abound, galore. Profane and “religious.” Thomas Merton petitioned is Father Superior to move outside the monastery and live in a cabin by himself–aggravated with the company of the surrounding monks.

  • Mr. Talking Ruler

    I didn’t see the SNL skit by Justin Timberlake… but I do remember Dana Carvey’s “The Church Lady”, who was very funny and yet sad at the same time.

    “Dick in a Box” kinda makes me sad too… He can’t give any love from his box, but he can’t receive any love from his box either. And he may think that’s it’s okay if only God loves him, yet he can’t see how God’s love applies to everyone else. Thank you for giving me things to ponder Mr. nakedpastor :)

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    it’s on youtube

  • Mr. Talking Ruler

    Oh my… just call me Mr. Blushing Ruler from now on… luckily I’m okay with my naivete…

  • rkidd

    Ouch. Truth hurts. LOL

  • http://weministry.com David Waters

    If you want pure light/water go to the source, not to any of the reflections.

  • Rhonda Sayers

    Well this brought to mind another kind of dick in a box…sometimes they look life like, but they are not real

  • Penny

    @David Waters: I’m stealing your quote. It’s PERFECT.

  • http://theprodigalprophet.com Dylan Morrison Author

    The secret’s in the box – big fish in a little pond to change the analogy. Without the box our hate preacher friends are ordinary little insecure boys/girls; inside their sect box they’re worshipped as God’s ‘annointed’.

  • http://www.thejesussociety.com Bill Scarrott

    I only wish Jesus hadn’t asked me to love people like Dick, but since he did, does anyone have suggestions on how to do that?

  • http://gravatar.com/cariocacos Anna G.

    You are awesome in your concepts……I feel exactly the same way in many aspects of your work..congrats..long time no talk…bless ya!

    Anna

  • http://www.facebook.com/whatwouldjeffdo señor jefe

    If he’s the dick, we’re the box. Churches filled with empty cisterns clamor for water to quench their thirst. But many of us are thirsting for the wrong thing. We want political christianity or safe religion. We want a pastor to lead us. If he does something right, we give glory to God. But if it all goes wrong, all the blame is on him. Either way, we’re absolved of any personal spiritual responsibility. We ALL build the box to justify our prejudices and vilify our enemies. Sometimes the box is called “church”. Other times, its called “the conversation.” No matter where we fall, the result is this strange spiritual circle-jerk that we believe is effective, because it makes us feel good.

    A lot of people don’t really want truth. Stupid sheep feel safe within our gates. We inherently want the protection of the church walls, because they keep us from having to deal with “the world” all-the-while keeping us safe from influences not like us.

    Of course, much this is perpetuated from the pulpit. But, that’s only because it’s what’s been demanded from the pew. Truth is, if the people will lead, the leaders will follow.

  • http://wwwjustifiedsinner.blogspot.com/ Howard Nowlan

    Senor Jefe’s comment made me think about the ‘boxes’ we’ve been inhabiting here nationally (in the UK) this week, as the media machine has delighted in every salacious detail of the continuing ugliness of the phone hacking ‘church’ of the tabloid press, which all around, the economy of Europe degrades, people starve in their millions in Africa, and a killing spree occurs in Norway… Yes, we like our boxes – love challenges us to face a far more painful world.

  • Dick

    Surely, there are pastors who operate not out of love, but with their own interests at heart, perhaps there are even many pastors operating this way. But, is it the message or the intention that is the problem, or do you contend they are one and the same? I agree with you that there is a great deal of hypocrisy in church leadership, and that much of what is taught is not truthful, but I would say that Christians are more like pussies than dicks. Acting like a dick is done just to hide our pussification. What is this twisting of our minds in the name of the Son of God which causes men to think like women and women to behave as men? There is such thing as God’s created order. A hand is not a foot. An eagle sores, the deer runs. A man works, a
    woman has children. “Male and female he created
    them”. Not recognizing our created purpose is
    rebellion against God.
    “As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they
    which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” Isaiah 3:12.
    You can say this is out of context, but it is obviously conveyed that it is an error for women to rule over God’s people. And Paul said that man is “the image and glory of God and woman is the
    glory of man.” This goes on and on in scripture, yet not for hate, but to show us God’s glory, to reveal his power, his beauty, his nature. To reveal order, authority, and submission. The Son only did and said a he saw the Father doing and saying. Yet the
    Son was no less God, and was one with the Father.
    Not recognizing the powerful gender differences
    robs God the glory of his power and robs man the knowledge of God. And I will leave you with this:
    where there is a designed order, equality brings chaos. It would be robbery for a man or an angel to be equal with God. I did not say above God, I said equal, because equal is not the designed place, and it would take away from who God is, wich in turn would destroy us! No, man and woman are not equal in authority. For good reason God has made us different. I would add that I would lay down my life for my wife; yes, I would have myself die instead of her. That does not make me a hero, it is expected. She would also do this for our children. It is the order and nature
    of God’s creation and this is not equal either.

  • http://episocpalchurch.org/ Miss J

    Preach it!

  • Patricia Lackey

    well, there you have it. A long, misspelled rant about men having authority over women. THIS is why I am liking the term “Christian” less and less. The Bible was written by fallible men, who were stuck in their times. There is nothing, nothing AT ALL that justifies this kind of talk now. I don’t want anyone to throw Paul at me: Paul DID NOT KNOW JESUS. Men NEED to think like women. If they do not, they risk much in today’s world. They have run the show long enough and done a pretty good job of screwing it up. Women are known as more empathetic, more able to negotiate, talk, and multi-task. Exactly what we need in this world. If any MAN tells me that I cannot be equal in authority, I would look at him as if he had two heads. I do not need the “favor” of a man saying he would “lay down his life for me” but that he has to be the “boss.” After all, that is the way that God designed it. You know, the all-knowing, infallible being who designed everything…who has a penis?? Give me a break. Get off of your self-righteous, “I will shoulder the burden and be the authoritarian head of my family” bullshit. Women have been oppressed long enough because of tripe like this and we are sick of it. Really sick of it..and it needs to stop

  • http://episcopalchurch.org/ Miss J

    “Actually, the root of their hatred is not their god or their book, but their own heart.”

    I wish more people would realise that. I hear so many people who don’t want to have anything to do with God or the Church because of people like the guy in the drawing.

  • Patricia Lackey

    and how to rob God of his glory and power? Really? Mankind can do that? Then “he” clearly is NOT all-powerful, is he?

  • http://www.crystalstmarielewis.com Crystal

    Well. Nuff said. ;)

  • Sylvia

    Well, sadly that about sums it up in a lot of cases. Freedom is so sweet.

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    Dick: You’re not serious.

  • fishon

    nakedpastor
    July 23, 2011 | 1:53 pm

    Dick: You’re not serious.

    ___Why wouldn’t he be serious. You just displayed a cartoon about “Dick in a box.” And all of a sudden a “Dick” pops up and you are surprised!

    NP:Stupid and hateful things are being said every day in the name of religion.
    ___And you are any different???
    No, you are no different in that you can be just as ugly as a “Dick.” Only difference between you and A “Dick” is, you hide behind cartoons and innuendoes. At least have the courage to state your opinions clearly instead of in vailed subtleties. Some day you will realize you are as intolerant and biggoted as the rest of us.

  • Dick

    Sorry about the misspellings. I am using a phone and that sometimes happens. My comment was perhaps out of context too, but I believe that those who read NP are looking for different thoughts and viewpoints, and I know on this one I probably disagree with most of you. But obviously, what I am saying affects every individual and you may have strong feelings about it. @ Patricia- Clearly we do not agree about the bible, but I will agree that men have most certainly screwed things up. I believe that is a very biblical statement. Also, answer this-
    if something is owed you, but your debtor refuses
    to give it to you, is he robbing you or not? You
    might be the most merciful and generous person
    in the world, and you might forgive him, but you
    would have nothing to forgive if there was no
    offense. And yes, David, I
    am serious. Sorry again for any misspellings.

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    fishon: you have been here as long as anybody else, and you should know by now that i am quick to accept responsibility and that i lump myself in with everyone. we all live in boxes, and you know very well i’ve pointed that out many many times. and i find it curious that you think i’m hiding when many people, including the church and denomination i left, said i was too open. it’s my cartoons that got me in trouble. how is that hiding?
    and dick: you’re not serious was primarily about you ranting about male authority in the context of this cartoon. secondarily it is that i think your ideas of male authority are antiquated and sexist.

  • amazonfeet

    David, I can so relate…you know why…Sam Scoville, I could see what you see on the “dick-in-a-box” on the faces of the people we had to deal with last Sunday at my church….I wonder where it comes from, and why it compels them to dishonor and profane the legitimate boundaries of other people..

  • http://www.fellowtravelerblog.com/ rob Haskell

    I’m not sure your portrayal of this hatefulness rises above what you are criticizing. You are also criticizing an abstraction, which is easy to villinize (shoot, how DO you spell that?!). I’m just saying… the way out of this probably not by using the same old tactics, you know?

  • http://gravatar.com/cariocacos Anna G.

    once and again and maybe neverending wars about “religion”….all the truth is not in me or in you..is in itself.
    Whatever works is valid..watch this:

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    if the cartoon applies, then the shoe fits… that’s always been my approach… so if we preach hate, then the shoe fits… this cartoon applies to us

  • http://gravatar.com/cariocacos Anna G.

    I think what he is trying to say is that we are being taught to hate and not to love when we have prejudices and “laws” that do not teaches us to love but to judge ..and in the mean time we hate, so much easier to hate..you have no commitments to the ones you hate……so HATE ON!
    never seen in my church a pregnant teen being hugged and being told she would be just fine…they point fingers and excludes them until they marry or give birth so Hipocritical…..ewwww!

  • Dick

    Yeah it was out of context. However, the ideas that I presented, are they not some of the very ones that you are most opposed to? I take it your belief is that antiquated and sexist equals wrong. Antiquated? Well, these ideas are old. Sexist? If you mean the ability to discern between the sexes, then yes. Wrong? I don’t believe so.

  • Dick

    Also, my real name is Tim. I thought Dick would be funny. You can still call me Dick if the shoe fits, I guess.

  • fishon

    Anna G.
    July 23, 2011 | 4:21 pm

    never seen in my church a pregnant teen being hugged and being told she would be just fine…
    ____We hug everyone in the Church I pastor, EVERYONE.

  • http://gravatar.com/cariocacos Anna G.

    @fishon congrats to your church and to the grace that is upon you…..cause from a certain period of time till now i believe theres no better person …there are just people! living…..doind rights and wrongs.
    I am not in such a position never been, telling about what I have and havent seen.
    But you know what? i do not care about that BUILDING called church anymore..i believe in God and tats all!

  • Sundragon

    Believe me, it’s not just Christians who are dicks in a box….

  • Patricia Lackey

    Tim,
    I believe you are probably a good person.BUT, your opinions threaten me–they threaten me at work, in the home, and in the courts. They also threaten my daughter–and our very livelihoods. Therefore, I will fight people with your opinion with every strength of my being. You are being disrespectful and discriminatory and it is unacceptable in a pluralistic society. There are many “holy” books in the world, and all are open to interpretation. You do not have the right to threaten me because of your beliefs, which I believe to be wrong. I use the word threaten, which might shock you, knowingly. Women have been abused for a long time in the name of God…God in neither male or female, that is a very immature belief system. Male/female is for humans and animals, not the Creator. By the way, women have a pretty good hand in creation…if anyone is made in the image of “God,” women are…

  • Dick

    Patricia,
    I can see that you firmly believe that my opinions are threatening to you. It may not be possible for me to explain to you why I don’t believe they are because it seems that you do not approach your beliefs about the bible from the same place I do. I mean that with respect to you. David has a great forum, but this discussion is limited at this point for me. If you want to respond though, you can have the last word.

  • http://nakedpastor.com nakedpastor

    that’s true sundragon. all religions are guilty. but since i find myself in the christian tradition i thought it would be more fair to start with it

  • clothed-shepherd (2Cor.5:4)

    For we know that if our earthly house, the tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed, in this house we groan, because we desire to put on our dwelling from heaven, if indeed, even after we have taken it off, we will not be found naked. For indeed we who are in this tent groan, being burdened for this reason, that we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the down payment, the Spirit. Therefore, although we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we live by faith, not by sight—so we are confident and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore indeed we have as our ambition, whether at home in the body or absent from the body, to be acceptable to him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, in order that each one may receive back the things through the body according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    Therefore become imitators of God, as beloved children, and live in love, just as also Christ loved us, and gave himself for us an offering and sacrifice to God for a fragrant smell. But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or greediness, must not even be named among you (as is fitting for saints), and obscenity, and foolish talk, or coarse jesting (which are not proper), but rather thanksgiving. For this you know for certain, that every sexually immoral person, or unclean person, or greedy person (who is an idolater), does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.

  • http://dmergent.org/2011/07/12/reclaiming-the-issues/ Doug Sloan

    It is not bigotry to oppose bigotry.

    It is not hate to vigorously and actively oppose hatred.

    It is not intolerant to eliminate intolerance.

    It was not an act of bigotry to stop the lynchings and kangaroo courts and political disenfranchisment of blacks in the United States.

    It was not an act of hatred to stop racial segregation.

    It was not intolerance when white people started to see black people being legally served at the counter in Woolworths.

    It is an act of righteousness to correct a great wrong. Those who are uncomfortable with that act of righteousness condemn ony themselves and not the righteousness of the act.

  • fishon

    Doug Sloan
    July 24, 2011 | 12:54 pm

    It is an act of righteousness to correct a great wrong. Those who are uncomfortable with that act of righteousness condemn ony themselves and not the righteousness of the act.
    ——–Now that statement is absolutely right. But we who stand on the truth of the Word; stand against sin as an act of righteousness are condemned as intolerant bigots.

    The difference between us is, you don’t believe my [our] act of righteousness to correct a great wrong is a wrong.

    By the way, it is NOT bigotry to stand up against sin. If so, then God is the biggest of all bigots.

    “It is not intolerant to eliminate intolerance.”
    ______Just because you call someone intolerant does not make it so. It is a copeout to justify sin and the approval of those who sin.

    No, your intolerance oozes from the pores of the your self righteous ‘intolerance’ you try and justify.

  • Patricia Lackey

    if you call equality between men and women sinful, you are just plain wrong…and dangerous…and do not base my rights on your religious beliefs, or I will turn around and demand the same…and you won’t like my belief system very much. I believe in common sense and equality and tolerance and respect and realize “the Word” has been manipulated and taken out of context for forever. It is a very immature faith that takes everything in that book at face value, without analyzing and studying it in context.

  • sincere

    I am a woman, but I agree with Tim (Dick). It’s amazing to me how the roles have switched. Men used to be strong, hard working, and sure of themselves and who they are as men. Now a lot of men are sissified, lazy, and rely on women now to do everything. I believe that the men who say “woman make my dinner” are disrespectful and lazy, and it doesn’t sound to me like that is the type of man that Tim is. Men have slowly cowered down, and women have slowly taken over. I feel like there’s been healing for women in the areas of physical, mental, and emotional abuse and that has been needed. I think of it as though if men were real men, and I don’t mean mean mean who only sit and play videogames and watch football, but real men that work hard, take care of their families and are respectful men, and women were real women, and I don’t mean women who are emotionally unattached and act like men because that’s what makes them strong, but women who are loving and supportive and know who they are as a person and a woman, then men and women would fit perfectly. I think both genders have played huge parts in causing the other to lose the sense of who they are and what they were made for. I think women are smart and do have a lot to offer to

  • sincere

    Sorry something happened to my last comment, anyways, I was saying I think women have a lot to offer and obviously are needed to survive. Men have degraded women for so long, but now women degrade men just as much. Women do need to be strong and hardworking but in different areas. So many take offense to this because it’s much different than what has been said for years, but it’s true. It is important for humanity that women be women and men be men, but true women and true men. Respectful, and hardworking in their own areas.

  • Ed

    Hello-

    I think your cartoon applies to a lot of us at one time or another, pastor or not – so point taken.

    I’m intrigued by Tim and Patricia’s comments. While in our household, there is much equality, wife has happily chosen to explore the place of ‘submitted to husband’ and doesn’t feel she is abdicating anything good. Neither of us are bent on it as theology, neither of us would ask it of another – but it’s working for us–and trust me, wife has her own voice!

  • fishon

    Ed,
    Much the same way in our household. I tell people, if the subject comes up, I am the head of the household. HOWEVER, my wife is way smarter than me;her wisdom puts me to shame, and she see problems and major decision issues much more clearly than me; therefore, as I being the one that makes the final decisions on major issues, I am just wise enough to follow her counsel 95% of the time. Her wisdom has NEVER failed.

  • Ed

    fishon – I think this concept works in our household because there is great mutual respect and love. Neither of us ‘lords it’ over the other and we talk meaningfully about the important things. We are trustworthy toward each other and not selfish over our resources.

    Do people really think God provided us with the blueprint for submission so men can exert domination and control over women? I believe rather that mankind’s heart perverts the concept into something rude and base.

    To be honest, I’ll admit that I am wife. Ed are my initials not my name. I am Beth.

    Lastly, I believe the Bible is inspired by God but morphed into and out of context by the thoughts of mankind. The bible’s not the problem, we are by subjecting His words and thoughts through our filters and limitations and prejudices.

    Blessings, Beth

  • Patricia Lackey

    fishon,
    why are earth are you the one to have the “final say” on major decisions when you freely admit that your wife usually displays more wisdom? Are you telling me that just because you are a male, you get to make the “final decisions?” That makes no sense to me. My husband and I discuss everything and decide things together. He would never presume to claim the right to have the last word because he is a man. Why is that? When you say that women are wise, why can’t they be in authority? It makes no sense. You are talking about making 50% of the world’s population “second class citizens” because they depend on men to recognize their wisdom. I don’t think so…and women, please do not “listen” to the 2000 year old words of a world that is gone to abdicate your rightful, equal (not superior) claim to authority in this world. Oh, and I am sorry, but women who “happily submit,” please ask yourself:why? Why am I less wise, valuable, etc. UNLESS my man happens to recognize that I am brilliant? By the way, I have raised three children and lost nothing by not being subservient. My husband and I are equal…and believe that that is the way the Creator would like it…

  • fishon

    Ed
    July 25, 2011 | 8:09 am
    Do people really think God provided us with the blueprint for submission so men can exert domination and control over women?
    ____Sadly, yes. As a pastor of a Church, I have had to deal with more than a few men that believe that. Some come to that belief because of lousy teaching or lack of. Others just use a few words out of context to play the power bully.

    I believe rather that mankind’s heart perverts the concept into something rude and base.
    ____I agree completely.

  • fishon

    Patricia Lackey
    July 25, 2011 | 8:47 am

    fishon,
    why are earth are you the one to have the “final say” on major decisions when you freely admit that your wife usually displays more wisdom?
    ____Because that is the way she wants it to be. And let me assure you, she is NO shrinking violet.

    That makes no sense to me.
    ____Well, I can’t help you on that. You would have to talk with Mrs. Fishon, but then, she refuses to do blogs. I know what, since I am the man of the house I will ORDER her to blog with you and explain herself. Oops, wrong, she would tell me, “Buzz off buster.”

  • Ed

    Hey again, fishon,

    The submission thing plays out fine in our household. In our home it causes both of us to think through our decisions and it unites us more than divides us. Submission theology has not been a part of any church I’ve ever attended and I think I’m up to 8 denominations and the Jesus Movement. Besides it was my idea to introduce this practice into our marriage.
    How I am with hubby in my home doesn’t have anything to do with work when I work – nor does it have anything to do with church life. I’ve served as a senior pastor. Nor does it impact my political expression. I vote my own way.
    Of course, I take exception to extremes: Read a story of a 14-year-old in Bangladesh who was killed for adultery. She had been raped by a cousin who stalked her. And she was killed for it. I’m decidedly opposed! I’m also active in working to end human trafficking.
    Jesus actually did much to give women voice and liberty. He was very kind in his dealings with women and they held roles in early church life.
    K-time to go cook lunch – I’m late – my hubby will kill me HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Not.
    PS-He cooks circles around me and cooks often–and does dishes — and does laundry — and vacuums — and dusts — and gives me backrubs — and I love him so.

  • Dick

    I will not speak any more to the subject of gender differences in this post because I promised Patricia that she could have the last word on it if she wanted. I do wish to speak more directly about the cartoon. I will do it in the form of a fictional story and then a question, but I will pose it so that I can try not to directly offend any group, but only appeal to logic.
    Here goes:
    I love bubble gum. I chew it daily; a new piece every hour. I desire it continuously, and feel that I
    would die without it. Most of my friends love
    bubble gum too. I go to a church where they give out bubble gum when you walk in. You get the
    picture. You are a pastor of my church. One day
    you read a report that said that bubble gum is laced with a chemical that will kill people.
    The report seemed to make sense and you
    believed it. One day you see me chewing bubble gum. Here is the question: which is love: to tell me threw report and let me know that bubble gum will kill me, or to keep you mouth shut and let me live my life?
    PS The question is with your belief, which way is love? Not is the report right or wrong.

  • fishon

    Dick,
    And there is the rub. I have faced it many times on this blog for the couple or three I have been around. Point out sin in love, and immediately the intolerant tolerant scream hate. And that battle is not going to change. In fact it is going to become very, very ugly. We ain’t seen nothing yet.

  • http://adsensus.wordpress.com/ Johnfom

    Dick,

    As you are an adult, I’d say I’d find out if you were aware of the report, and if not tell you where you could find it and give a quick statement of the conclusion of the report. If you were aware of the report, then I’d have to leave it at that and make sure I was around to be of assistance when things went wrong.

    We should probably try to find a way to let our fellow beings be wrong without thinking of them as deceived, dishonest, dense or depraved.

  • Tim AKA Dick

    @ Johnfom- So then, to tell me would be love, or not telling me would be love?
    @Naked Pastor- I would be interested to hear your answer. Not that you have to.

  • fishon

    Johnfom
    July 25, 2011 | 8:35 pm
    We should probably try to find a way to let our fellow beings be wrong without thinking of them as deceived, dishonest, dense or depraved.
    —-”deceived,” Oh I don’t know, kinda hard for the families of the Jim Jones tragedy to not think that their family members as being deceived, or maybe the Koresh bunch.

    “dishonest,” Oh I don’t know, I would have a hard time dealing with some fraudulent tv preachers without thinking them dishonest.

    “depraved,” try to find a way to let our fellow beings be wrong without thinking of them as…depraved.–Oh I don’t know. Kind of hard for me to think of the priests and preachers who sexually abuse children without thinking depraved.

    But then I guess you are a better man than me.

  • http://adsensus.wordpress.com/ Johnfom

    Tim,

    If you are unaware (and I am the hypothetical pastor), then to make the information available is loving. If you are aware, then to reiterate the information or expect compliance is not.

    fishon,

    I’ll leave open the possibility that I might be a better man than you, but I doubt it.

    When someone is wrong we tend to put them into boxes based on which of the categories we think they are. Sure, we can leave them in limbo for a period while we try to figure out which one of the categories they are, but eventually we’ll think of them as one of those categories.

    Are they lying? No there does’t seem to be an intention to deceive there. Are they deceived? Well, possibly, but they don’t seem to have swallowed any lies, they just see a different meaning or outcome. Not being the other two they must therefore have missed out on some information that I have, so I’d better tell them everything I know so they can see things my way. If that doesn’t work then its back to the first two categories depending on how much we like the person (if we like them they must be deceived, if we don’t then they are deceptive). Of course us religious folk have another category to put the ‘leftovers’ in. If they are wrong, and we can’t honestly put them in the first 3 categories, they must just be sinful (depraved). There we go, all neatly categorised into what sort of wrong they are, and we can relate to them as their category befits

    I’m not saying that the categories should be done away with. As is easily shown, there are those for who the shoe undoubtedly fits. I’m saying they are inexhaustive and we should try to create for ourselves the possibility of relating to someone who, being wrong, is not deceived, dishonest, dense or depraved because, IMO and experience, they aren’t any of these.

  • Patricia Lackey

    fishon and Tim,
    I do not think either of you are “bad.” And if your belief creates a happy home (note I said home) for you, that is fine with me.. It is none of my business what you do at home. Nor is it any of your business what I do in my home and that is the issue: many “fundamentalists” feel that they have the monopoly on the truth and that I must be “educated,” indeed, all of society must be educated. Tim, I do believe your original post did try to explain the current problems in the world due to women and men confusing their biblical gender roles. You are entitled to your opinion and that does not affect me, UNLESS you decide to take that view another step and try to sway the political process to enforce your views. Then, I will have to “fight” back, because we do not live under biblical law. Nor should we.To tell you the truth, the Bible, to me, holds some great wisdom, and some horrible sin, especially the old Testament. I do not view it as the inerrant voice of God, and that is why we will never agree. This book cannot affect my rights. You do not need to worry that I need to be educated–I know very well what you are quoting, I just do not take a lot of what Paul said literally. I am married and there was not a single “obey” in my marriage ceremony.I wish you both well in your marriages…just don’t tell me I cannot run for office or run a school…