Jesus misogyny and violence against women

jesus and misogyny cartoon by nakedpastor david hayward

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As you can imagine I’m online quite a bit running nakedpastor and The Lasting Supper as well as selling my art and keeping up with correspondence and all my social media.

Sometimes I read the newsfeed in my personal Facebook just to rekindle my resolve to work against idiocy and injustice. But I must say that some days I get discouraged by both the overt and latent misogyny in the church. It seems to be laced with it. And the more our awareness is raised the more vehement the misogyny gets. It just confirms my theory that fundamentalism is a fear-based response to change and development. Therefore, the more change that is considered the more violent is the reaction.

My hope, and I trust it, is that the more we raise awareness and call for justice, beginning with exercising it in our own lives, then it will eventually win the day.

About David Hayward

David Hayward runs the blog nakedpastor as a graffiti artist on the walls of religion where he critiques religion… specifically Christianity and the church. He also runs the online community The Lasting Supper where people can help themselves discover, explore and live in spiritual freedom.

  • klhayes

    The misogyny I read from those who claim to know Jesus and God is unbelievable. They attack women who are strong and have positions of leadership (with the exception of women in leadership in their own camp). Fundamentalism has joined forces with those wanting to destroy govt b/c they apparently believe in freedom but they want women to accept second-class status and be dependent on men and the church.

  • Dennis Irwin

    This is ridiculous. You’re actually making up a problem now. The only place I’ve seen hatred for women was on Real Time with Bill Maher. Who’s an atheist by the way.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Dennis: does your cave have an address?

  • Sven2547

    Until last year, the pastor of my family’s church was a woman. She became a friend of the family, and over dinner one time she told us of how, when she was ordained, she got hate mail from all over the country -complete strangers!- expressing outrage that a woman would DARE try to be a pastor. Unspeakable insults, death threats, and hostility. Some members of my own church left in protest at her lack of Y chromosome. My own grandfather told her, to her face, that women should not only be barred from leading congregations, but from participating in any business aspect of a church whatsoever.

    The fact that she had done nothing to provoke this behavior, and the fact that there is apparently a widespread network of haters who spend their time harassing female pastors, means there is indeed a problem, and there’s a lot of work to be done to fix it.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Very nice. You got my wife to laugh at that comment. lol. She disagrees with you of course…….maybe because she’s a fundamental misogynist.

    Just like racist and bigot, the word misogyny is misused so much. The “church” has a hatred or dislike of women? Really? Maybe what you call misogyny….isn’t. And that’s where we don’t see eye to eye.

    To quote Paul from his letter to the Ephesians: “For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.”………..is this misogyny?

  • mrichardson84

    Yes, Dennis. It is misogyny. Anything that elevates men over women is misogyny. But a fundamentalist like you wouldn’t understand that. You’ve been a misogynist so long you don’t know anything else. How do I know this? I’ve read your comments, and you take every word of the Bible as unerring truth and never question anything. You presume to have all the answers because “the Bible says so.” No further proof, just blind belief. I’d feel sorry for you if you weren’t so arrogant to assume sexism isn’t a problem.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Wow….LOL!…. I “never question anything”? “No further proof”? Actually, I question everything. It’s how I’ve come to be a believer, because when I started investigating Christianity and atheism I learned that to not believe in a Creator took “blind faith”. The fact that you believe that quote is misogyny shows you haven’t investigated what the bible teaches. And you’re missing out on the real beauty of how God made the husband/wife relationship.

  • Susan_G1

    Look at the teachings of SGM, for just one example. Look at the blanket absolution they give to husbands who abuse their wives. The lawsuit cites an example of a wife who was told to return to her husband, who admitted to sexually abusing their daughter, and install a lock on the inside of the daughter’s bedroom to prevent further abuse.

    The Gospels, the NT (if one is feeling particularly generous) is not misogynistic. But the interpreters of Scripture are. There exists misogyny in so many denominations, some simply because women are not physically like Jesus, that is, they do not have a Y chromosome, to put it genteelly.

  • James Walker

    Why only stop violence against women? Why not just stop violence?

  • Dennis Irwin

    On another point……..Are Muslims misogynist?

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    That’s a stupid question. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is. That’s like asking “Are Christians misogynist?” Some are, but not all. But asking that question in that way reveals more than you might have intended. Or not.

  • Nick Bell

    Is your head over your body? What does it do for your body? Does your head harm your body? No, it cares for your body. Wives are to be submissive to their husbands. Sub (under) missive (mission). Under the mission. What is that mission? “Husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the Church.” Which is that He gave his whole life and died for the Church. The man’s mission is to be like Christ. The woman’s role his to help him. If he becomes like Christ does he turn around and lord it over her? No, he makes himself least. That’s what Christ-like headship is.
    Also, I’m not a fundamentalist.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    hehe “I’m not a fundamentalist” hahaha.

  • Al Cruise

    I live in a town were there are several Christian Churches that make their women wear dark dresses and a covering on their heads at all time and the reason is based on Bible scripture. The men however dress like the rest of the working world. My wife and I met a 15 year old girl from one of these Churches the other day, and she told us she had to quit their school and go off to another group, in a different part of the country to be married. She was very bright and wanted to have more education but was told this was not allowed, and scripture used to tell her why that was wrong. This is misogyny with endorsement from the Bible in the purest form. She is nothing more than breeding stock for them, to keep their clan numbers up and a place for their men to keep this kind of power. All fundie Churches do this in one form or another.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Stupid? And a Islamophobe!….”But I must say that some days I get discouraged by both the overt and latent misogyny in the church. It seems to be laced with it.” Pretty broad brush. “…. my resolve to work against idiocy and injustice.” So you attack “the church”. Have you seen the movie “The Stoning of Soraya M.” ? Do you know what the average woman has to deal with in Saudi Arabia? Or Iran? Or Pakistan? Or Afghanistan? Egypt? Yemen? Chad? Sudan? What do all those countries have in common? Real misogyny. That’s where the real fight against “injustice” should be. Hatred of women is the definition of misogyny. That’s what you think the church is “laced” with? I think that’s stupid.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    No sir, the battle begins in your own heart, not in a foreign land. We’ve met the enemy, and it is us. I know many muslims intimately and they are not misogynists. There is misogyny IN the church. I didn’t say the church is misogynist, although I’m sure that can be argued. Yes I saw it. Her husband was an asshole who wanted to fuck a young girl and used religion to accomplish his desires. That happens everywhere, including your own backyard.

  • Al Cruise

    The reason you see that in those countries, is the legal system and gov’t is tied in with the religious system. Here the legal system is separate and you guys can’t get away with that kind of stuff here, otherwise you would be doing that here too, that’s why there is so much hatred of gov’t by the fundamentalists.

  • Dennis Irwin

    You’re awful frisky today Dave. lol. Of course we have all kinds of battles. And the battle in your own heart is one. I don’t think Paul advised us to put on the “whole armor of God” to fight ourselves though. There’s a battle out there….and it’s a bummer you left us. It almost seems you fight for the enemy. I know the church has problems….it’s full of people. But I choose to fight with my brothers as much as possible.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Sure is a lot of different countries with different governments…….but the same outlook. I wonder what the real connection is……hmmmmm?

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    There! We’ve reached ground zero.

  • Dennis Irwin

    What? I said almost!

  • Al Cruise

    Round 1
    David -1
    Dennis- 0

  • Dennis Irwin

    Wait a minute…..I sense biased score keeping!

  • Gary

    David thank you for this.

    My wife and I both used to be misogynists We bought into the whole fundamental crap of male headship. (Paul’s idea, and totally contrary to Jesus teaching.) We now understand that the best relationships are based on equality. When we submit our wills to one another it is based on mutual respect and love…NOT on gender stereotypes. I have come to believe one of the great missteps in the early church was pursuing the teaching of Paul over and above that of Jesus Himself.

  • Gary

    Easy…religion is in control in most all of them. Al is spot on in his observation.

  • Gary

    This sounds good James…but perhaps it deflects attention away from a very real problem? We all would love to stop all violence. But short of some magic wand we really are more effective by focusing on specific issues we can identify and which are narrow enough to pinpoint some of the particular attitudes that encourage the continued abuse.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Religion? That’s what you see as spot on? hmmm….

  • Dennis Irwin

    So….the bible is not “God breathed”. You’re on the wrong side of an argument and instead of digging to find out why, you change the rules. ok.

  • Gary

    No absolutely not all of it. I love though that you declare that I am the one “on the wrong side of an argument”. Actually my view is the one which all people with a basic moral compass intrinsically understand. These ARE the rules. Not your worship of a book. It is you, attempting to prop up a book as “the rules” rather than basic human decency, who is on “the wrong side” of this very important issue.

  • Gary

    Yup. Religion is often the great excuse for the most horrible offences. Come on Dennis…even a bigoted misogynistic fundamentalist like you must surely admit this.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Wow. Who decides what the “moral compass” is?

    How do you know which parts are and which parts aren’t?

  • Dennis Irwin

    It’s an ignorant view. Government’s are guilty of the most horrible offences. But Islam is closing in. Not religion. You left out islamophobic.

  • Gary

    Hmm…well let’s see. If we leave it to your “rule” book we find that a woman must marry her rapist, a rebellious child must be stoned to death, genocide is perfectly fine so long as those we seek to wipe out disagree with us, slavery is ok, misogyny is fine. Need I go on?

    It really cracks me up that you are arguing AGAINST gender equality and somehow believe you have moral high ground based on your “book”.

  • Gary

    Bullshit!!

  • Dennis Irwin

    Who’s arguing AGAINST gender equality? I’m just defending against false teaching…..that the “church” hates women. Which is what misogyny is. See how you do?

    You didn’t answer my question. I’ll ask it different this time. Since you’re a proclaimed believer, how do you know what the Creator of the world says?

  • Gary

    Easy, I trust the Spirit EXACTLY as Jesus said I should. He NEVER promised to send a rule book but to send the Spirit of Truth. The church chose instead to worship a man made collection of opinions. This is why the Christian religion is in such a sad state as it is today.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Hirohito, and Mussolini, Kim Il Sung, Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot. Just to get started. Estimated number of deaths? 100′s of millions.

  • Gary

    Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1][2] Misogyny has been characterised as a prominent feature of the mythologies of the ancient world as well as various religions. In addition, many influential Western philosophers have been described as misogynistic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

  • Dennis Irwin

    That is just brilliant! So my Spirit says this yours says that…..lolololol. God can make the universe, but not a book to communicate with his creation so we can stay straight. No wonder you’re all over the place. I get it now. You’ve decided who God is.
    You’re on the wrong road……”Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘One does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God’” (Matthew 4:4).

  • Gary

    This list means nothing. Some of these men were quite religious. And the others followed a religious like allegiance to an ideology which placed dogma above human rights. Just like much of religion.

  • Dennis Irwin

    You like that Wikipedia. You missed the beginning of that definition……and all other sources for the definition…….the hatred or dislike of women.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Like who? You’re not gonna give me the “Hitler was a Christian” line? I think that list meant a lot to the 100+ millions of folks.

  • Gary

    Yes…you must dislike women to believe they should be beneath and ruled by men. No sense in denying it…you are a misogynist. At least be honest enough to admit what you are.

  • Gary

    You really are an ignorant person. Let’s see,,,how many DIFFERENT denominations disagreeing profoundly on virtually every doctrine…all following the ONE book?

    Please…this argument is so lame it is comical.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Ironic. From todays headline:

    “The rampant sexual attacks during the Tahrir Square protests highlight the failure of the government and all political parties to face up to the violence that women in Egypt experience on a daily basis in public spaces,”

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/07/03/egypt-epidemic-sexual-violence

  • Dennis Irwin

    “…..disagreeing profoundly on virtually every doctrine” Bullcrap. False info again! Most differences are about worship style. Not doctrine. Some like chocolate some like vanilla. I like that there are different styles. The Catholic church might be the only one that comes close to your description…..but even they believe Christ is God with us. And that’s THE doctrine.

    I don’t think you understand Christianity. You’ve been taught wrong somewhere.

  • Dennis Irwin

    LOL.

  • Al Cruise

    A product of fundamentalism , doesn’t matter whose flavor.

  • Dennis Irwin

    No….a product of false teaching.

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    Dennis, who or what exactly is the enemy? You have mentioned the need to fight the enemy a few times now and perhaps I missed an earlier post that defined the enemy. I presume you are talking about agents of the devil trying to drag as many people as possible down to hell. Or are you talking about something else? Just curious.

  • Gary

    You really don’t understand this place do you? LOL And no most of the differences are not simply over worship style. Your silly denial of plainly verifiable facts speaks volumes about your agenda driven nonsense. I bet you still believe the universe is around 6000 years old. grin

    BTW – I was a fundamental pastor many years ago and I taught the bible to adults for over 20 years. Yes I “understand Christianity”. I have rejected fundamental Christianity (as have most here) because I find it irreparably flawed.

  • Gary

    And since I have never ONCE disagreed with you on what you now state is THE doctrine…then you must think my beliefs are ok. Good to know you think I am right after all since all those other differences we have really don’t mean anything other that variations in worship style. LMAO

  • Dennis Irwin

    Ok….no. But everybody has their own maturity level. Some can handle meat…..and some are still drinking milk. The fact that you decide who God is……is a problem. But not mine.

    I have no idea how old the earth is…..I wasn’t around when it was made. And there’s no “made on this day” sticker anywhere. But I bet you believe the earth is a kazillion, billion, trillion years old. Minus a million or so if a rock is found in the wrong spot. lolol

    “You really don’t understand this place do you?” Really? It’s 64 to 1 in here…..you don’t think I understand? lolololol

  • Dennis Irwin

    ” I presume you are talking about agents of the devil trying to drag as many people as possible down to hell.” ….Yes.

  • Gary

    Defining God and faith for everyone else is your game. Most of us argue against that thinking. Try to keep up Dennis…its not that hard. grin

    And your silly “kazillion, billion, trillion years old. Minus a million or so if a rock is found in the wrong spot” mockery of the sciences really does speak to your profound ignorance. I would recommend you stop making fun of science. There is very little you could do to make your level of blindness more evident. And yes…your fraudulent liar scam artist claiming to be a scientists who you keep defending around here believes in a literal 7 day creation event around 6000 years ago. So dodge if you like…but your beliefs have been spelled out so embrace them. Let everyone clearly know how deep of a thinker you are. Are you ashamed of believing in a young earth?

  • Al Cruise

    Same thing.

  • Gary

    So that’s what you believe we are?

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    I would submit that these “agents” are just in your mind. They don’t actually exist “out there”. The idea is useful, though, for an “us against them” mentality and for forming in-groups and out-groups… very useful for churches, flock retention, and feelings of moral superiority. Everybody likes an underdog and if the devil gets everybody by default, then I could see that it would be special to be in an elite group that can resist temptation. I think, though, that you give the devil too much credit. But you knew I would say these things… being an agent of the devil and all. LOL

  • klhayes

    “In proportion to the extent that commerce assumed definite control of the State, money became more and more of a God whom all had to serve and bow down to. Heavenly Gods became more and more old-fashioned and were laid away in the corners to make room for the worship of mammon. And thus began a period of utter degeneration which became specially pernicious because it set in at a time when the nation was more
    than ever in need of an exalted idea, for a critical hour was threatening. Germany should have been prepared to protect with the sword her efforts to win her own daily
    bread in a peaceful way.”

    “They close their eyes in reverend abhorrence to this godless scourge and pray to the Almighty that He–if possible after their own death–may rain down fire and brimstone as on Sodom and Gomorrah and so once again make an out standing example of this shameless section of humanity.”

    “But if for reasons of indolence or cowardice this fight is not fought to a finish we may imagine what conditions will be like 500 years hence. Little of God’s image will be left in human nature, except to mock the Creator.”

    These excerpts are from Mein Kampf and in reference to the “problem” in Hitler’s mind…I think they could be out of the mouths of any fundamentalist preacher speaking of any “other” they see as a threat.

  • mrichardson84

    Of course he does. He believes anyone who doesn’t hold to his stringent view of the Bible is a “false teacher” and an “agent of the devil.” He apparently thinks female pastors are leading people to hell, too. And he thinks he isn’t a misogynist.

  • James Walker

    I don’t know if saying “stop violence” deflects attention away from stopping violence against women, but I do agree that what I said sounds good.

  • mrichardson84

    You ARE a fundamentalist, if you believe wives are to submit to their husbands, simply because the Bible says so. Anyone who would put women below men is a full-blown sexist. It’s clear you think men are better than women, because that’s what you WANT the Bible to say. You are using the Bible to justify your sexism, so you say God made women lower than men. Shame on you.

  • mrichardson84

    Also? Equating men with the head and women as the rest of the body? Shameful. You clearly have no understanding of equality. Men and women are equal individuals with personal dignity, NOT higher and lower parts of the same entity. Your views are disgusting and reprehensible.

  • mrichardson84

    I’m glad to miss out on what you call “beauty.” Of anything you call “beauty,” I want no part. Your “beauty” causes oppression and unfairness. As I said, anything that puts women below men is misogyny. No two ways about it. And I will not stop fighting for equality, no matter how much you try to deny your hindrance to it.

  • Al Cruise

    Who’s gov’t killed over 200 women and children at Wounded Knee in South Dakota? Was that Gov’t upholding Christian principals?

  • Dennis Irwin

    Scientist=God! LOL! Don’t believe Paul, who got Peter’s blessing….but that friggin guy who said global cooling…ooops, I mean global warming was on the way or the guy, Sir Arthur Smith-Woodward who was involved in 2 scams ( Rhodesian Man & Piltdown Man) or the CRU email scams…..they are pure! But the guy who wrote Romans…he’s a moron. I’m sorry Gary….you’re lost. Why I don’t know.
    Of course, I believe God made the earth….there is no other logical explanation. Grady M. and other creationists believe it’s only 6,000 years old. I think that’s more accurate than the hacks you worship. But I really have no idea…..I have to rely on others. As do you. But I believe in God’s ability to tell me the truth. You? Make crap up.

  • Gary

    Don’t know how to say this any other way. You are full of fucking bullshit. Your scientific dribble is of the worst kind, your lame accusations of who I “worship” are the most intellectually juvenile (grade school even) nonsense, and your continued embracing of the 6000 year old universe nonsense reveals you to be among the most willfully ignorant people on earth. David asked if your cave has an address. I don’t think it does.

  • Dennis Irwin

    ” He apparently thinks female pastors are leading people to hell, too”….Source?
    Are you not interested in getting to the truth? If you were, you wouldn’t lie.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Was there any info in that bilge? What proof have you seen that the earth is 100,000 years old? 200,000? 300,000? Never mind 1 bazzilion.
    You have none. Because you believe hacks. Who have an agenda.
    I wonder what that agenda could be…hmmmm?

  • Dennis Irwin

    I’m not sure Gary. Your hate is pretty ugly…….????????

  • Dennis Irwin

    No agents…just evil.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Of course my wife would disagree with you. Oppression? Unfairness? You have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m sure you’re nice but you’re selfishness is really ugly to look at.

  • mrichardson84

    Learn the difference between an assumption and a lie, and then we can talk. Meanwhile, you’re just resorting to ad hominem attacks because you can’t come up with anything better.

    You are complementarian, so I assume you believe women have no voice in the church. What else was I supposed to think? And since you take the Bible so literally, I assume you believe it’s a sin for women to be pastors, and therefore, they’re leading people to hell.

  • mrichardson84

    So because I’m for equality and ending abuse and oppression, I’M selfish? Seems you’re the selfish one, since you advocate a theology that keeps women down and from ever questioning their husbands. That is abuse and oppression and very much unfair. It’s also selfish of you to deny that sexism in the Church is a problem. Your male privilege is showing.

  • mrichardson84

    And it seems you think anyone who disagrees with you is selfish or a liar. Wake up. Women DO have brains, and we won’t “submit” them to you, just because your beliefs are outdated and oppressive.

  • mrichardson84

    Your views are disgusting. You should be ashamed of your bigotry and arrogance. You think you’re better than everyone else here? Wrong. Stop being so smug and superior. Go troll someone else’s blog.

  • Gary

    You have said all you need to. LOL

  • Gary

    Well considering you stated it as an alternative….

  • Gary

    There is no rational train of though with this one. He still believes the universe is 6000 years old. Some ignorance cannot be fixed.

  • Gary

    Fuck you. I am tired of your disgusting lies and vile attacks. And that it all comes from such profound ignorance makes all the more sad. But a PERFECT representation of the complete and utter bullshit that is the fundamental mind.

    So seriously…FUCK OFF!!!

  • Gary

    He has served a purpose in here. No one need doubt the vacuum that is the fundamental mind. He has given us a great example to study.

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    Are you saying that it isn’t that “agents of the devil” exist only in your mind but that “evil” exists only in your mind?

    And that “evil” is just a poetic synonym for ideas, beliefs, and behaviors you don’t agree with

  • Nick Bell

    That’s a nice box you have for me there, but it completely misses what I actually believe. For the record, if you were to ask me which sex was better, I would have to say women. Women are the crown of creation and the archetype of human race. Women help men to be human.
    Also, you didn’t even address what Submission means in my view. It means that men lay down their lives for women. It means that they live for them (make sacrifices for them in life; become selfless) and die for them. You don’t give your life for something you think is beneath you, less than you. If anything, this implies that the man thinks her MORE valuable than him, though I suppose it could also work on a merely equal value system. But also this isn’t just men-women it’s Husband-wife. There’s love there, which changes the dynamic to make the sacrifice more appropriate. Dying for someone of equal value who you love is a no brainer. Also, when people are in love then tend to think the other person is really amazing and better than them, at least in some ways. Also, everyone who’s screaming scandal over the Bible’s teaching conveniently misses the verse just before that says “submit to each other.” It’s a mutual submission between the man and the woman (who are, of course, equal). But in short, my view cannot be characterized as man>woman because man gives up his life for woman, and no one dies for that which they do not value to an extraordinary degree, at least as much as they value themselves.

  • James Walker

    It’s an alternative that covers the first wording.

    It’s like the original was “Stop violence against white women” and I suggested “Stop violence against women” and you’re saying that distracts from the message of “Stop violence against white women”.

    Would we still be having this discussion then, or would you just agree with me?

  • Nick Bell

    “Men and women are equal individuals with personal dignity.”
    A statement I agree with completely.

  • Nick Bell

    So, someone comes to your blog, expresses an opinion, and you greet them with mockery? I would expect someone of your age to have the ability to engage in mature discourse.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    It’s not mockery Nick. That’s my response to your claim that you’re not a fundamentalist. I think you are but you’re unwilling to admit it because of unpleasant associations. I believe Complimentarians are fundamentalists when it comes to women’s issues.

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    Nick, the rub is that your world view seems to equate women with children. Children are not yet fully formed and need special protection. Practically all of us would sacrifice everything we had to protect our children because we love them and also because they need protection. We will even risk life and limb to save other people’s children because they need protection. We can, of course, sacrifice much to protect our wives as well because we love them but it disempowers and devalues adult women to think they need protection because they are similar to children in not being fully formed. Those unfortunate bible verses that put man above women play into the mindset that adult women are basically children that provide certain special (sexual) benefits. That is what we are trying to say is misogynistic. Sacrifice things for those adult women you love. Just don’t have the reason as partly because you think they are lesser beings and need the help.

  • mrichardson84

    Right on, Jeff. I went to a wedding a few weeks ago and was just appalled at the outdated level of complementarianism. The vows clearly indicated a male-dominated relationship and even mentioned the wife as the “weaker vessel.” I felt so sorry for the bride. Women are not weaker than men. That is an antiquated view that belittles women and denies our potential. I subscribe to the timeless verse that includes “there is neither male nor female.” That is something that does not change, unlike societal gender roles.

  • Nick Bell

    Really? Try that in person. Have someone express their sincere opinion and then don’t say anything, just laugh at them. See how that goes.
    And on the far chance that it doesn’t qualify as mockery it’s even further from qualifying as actual discourse.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    This is the way I have dialog with many people. They don’t see it as ridicule but simply me saying, “HA! You’re not a fundamentalist? Riiiiiiigggggghhhhhttttt!” And they don’t get their feelings hurt. Well, most don’t.

  • Nick Bell

    You’ve introduced several elements into this argument that I never supported, but are your own inventions.
    The first is that this is about protection. I never said that. But I don’t think your analysis is particularly correct anyway, specifically on the premise you have that only not fully formed beings require protection. There are plenty of circumstances where fully grown men and women need protection. Beyond that, men are in general better protectors. Obviously there are exceptionally strong women, but when subjected to the harshest military operations, it’s still left to the men because men’s bodies are designed for that. For instance men’s body are better at cooling down than women’s. Personally, I wouldn’t last a day in such a role since my back is injured, as well as both wrists which is severely limiting. But Science has shown significant differences between both sexes, these being one of them. Women have their own strengths, strengths I highly admire and even envy.
    For the average American married couple, it is indeed rather unlikely that the husband will need to physically defend his wife. Maybe she doesn’t ever need to be protected. But it would be incorrect to say that my saying that women are worth protecting devalues them – quite the opposite is true.
    Given the lack of physically dying for his spouse, we have the other half of the sacrifice, which is laying down his life in other ways. Not being selfish, or controlling, battling against his habits and inclinations that are not loving to her. In essence, his life is a gift to her, as her life is a gift to him. Free and mutual self gift in love.
    Next is the element that women are for sexual benefit. I said nothing of the kind and find the idea actually quite abhorrent. My belief is that only proper response to persons (of whatever gender) is love, and not use. Any type of sexual use of another person is gravely immoral and sinful. So if that’s what you find misogynistic, rest assured I am not even close.
    Lastly this idea that the sacrifice is based on her being lesser or needing help. I don’t think women are lesser beings. (I’d rate then higher then men long before I put men above women.) But as far as needing help I’ll take a different view. Women do need help. And they need help from men. But they also need help from women, and men also need help from men and women. Because people need help. I don’t take this view that self-sufficiency is the great ideal. I don’t think it reflects humanity correctly. I freely admit that I need help, and a woman’s help too. Everyone can use help from time to time. There’s only one relationship where needing help is related to being a lesser being, and that’s between creature and Creator. We’re contingent; God is not. We need his help, and we are also lesser. But as far as creature-to-creature relationships I don’t think that help implies a superior-inferior relationship. Especially not within the context of a loving marriage based on total and mutual self-gift.

  • Nick Bell

    Okay, well I’m not a fundamentalist. I don’t have a set of basic principles to strictly and literally adhere to, and thus, am not a fundamentalist. I don’t interpret scripture literally in every case, nor do I even think it’s possible to do so. I don’t believe the Bible simply because it’s the Bible and someone told me it was true. My beliefs are hard-won and nuanced. They are not stereotypical, and every person who has taken the time to listen to them has seen that.

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    Nick, I’m glad you are not quite the Neanderthal that I feared, but I am still taking some scissors and cutting 1 Cor. 11:3 out of my bible. I hope you do too. :) That passage leads to a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) form of misogyny that many don’t see since they are so immersed into it. Seen from outside the church culture, it is quite obvious.

  • Dennis Irwin

    Assume? What an awesome example you and some of the folks here are to mankind. I actually use this blog to teach my Life Application Sunday School. Very fruitful. I always hear how progressives are so tolerant and peaceful. But when you go back and look at how weak you and yours defend yourselves, how nasty you explain yourselves, how ignorant the assumptions are. It’s not only eye opening, but faith building. Thanks.

    And btw…..I’m not a “complementarian”. I don’t believe women should be precluded from doing anything. I do believe, however, that men and women were built to do different jobs. For instance, I believe men are better suited to be fathers.

  • Ellen Polzien

    Nick, your insistence on subservient women certainly sounds like a “basic principle” you “strictly and literally adhere to.”

  • Dennis Irwin

    That’s funny.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Nick: Your argument is disgusting. You’re like the man who says to his wife, “You should be happy I don’t beat the shit out of you”, as if you treating with respect, dignity and equality is a favor. Just think for a minute.

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    Nick, Is this what you are trying to say?

    http://www.theonion.com/video/the-onion-looks-back-at-the-wizard-of-oz,32852

    (The Wizard of Oz bit)…

  • Nick Bell

    Where did I ever imply such?

  • Nick Bell

    Where did I say women should be subservient to men?

  • Nick Bell

    That’s the most brilliant and spot-on take on the Wizard of Oz I’ve ever seen ;)

  • mrichardson84

    Translation: “I’m a troll.” You troll progressive websites and look for imperfections so you can warn your Sunday school class about the “evil librulls.” And as for your faith, your faith is very weak if that’s how you have to build it.

    “I’m not a complementarian.” Bullshit. If you believe men and women were built to do different jobs, that is the very definition of complementarianism.

    You call us “nasty”? And calling us evil and saying we’re leading others to hell isn’t nasty at all. Hypocrite. I’m done with you. Stop trolling this blog and go somewhere else and get a life.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    You are a gross misrepresenter and are lying to your class.

  • disqus_35AwukS8d1

    He was quoting the Bible, and offering his interpretation, which seems to be that he sees “headship” as a metaphor about spouses caring for one another. Fundamentalists often see “headship” as meaning “the man’s the boss.” You folks need to chill out, I think. xD

  • disqus_35AwukS8d1

    WTF? I didn’t see that in his comment at all… ? It just sounds like he’s trying to combine his respect for women, with the scriptures. And that seems positive to me?

  • disqus_35AwukS8d1

    So “weaker vessel” means women are weaker in every respect, or what? When I read that in the Bible, I thought it just meant men have more upper body strength, generally, which really cannot be denied. OR, that maybe it meant women had less political rights during the time that was written, and so men needed change that, if not politically, at least in their personal interactions with women?

  • disqus_35AwukS8d1

    Nick apparently believes in mutual submission. If I remember correctly, complementarians believe that only the wife must submit because the husband is a “servant leader,” and thus gets the final say whenever there is a decision to be made.

  • mrichardson84

    I have no problem with mutual submission whatsoever. It is equal and is essentially teamwork. Marriage is teamwork, not hierarchy, as complementarians believe. I don’t see where he believes this.

  • mrichardson84

    Of course he was quoting the Bible. But he clearly stated that the man is above the woman, like the head is above the body. That I have a problem with, and I don’t think I need to chill out when someone implies that marriage is hierarchical.

  • mrichardson84

    That’s the way I’ve always interpreted it. The Bible has been greatly abused by patriarchs, who think the wife’s job is to submit and obey her husband, who supposedly has authority over her. That’s what I was taught growing up as a Baptist. Now I totally and vehemently reject the notion that a man has any inherent authority over a woman.

    I somewhat disagree with your first interpretation, as I think it actually means men should respect women more instead of vice versa. A woman shouldn’t have to be afraid of a man, simply because he has more physical strength.

    I’m open to the possibility of your second suggestion, that at the time of Paul’s writing, submission was progressive. But women have more equal rights now (though we’re still progressing), and I believe in mutual submission, not a wife submitting to a husband’s authority. Based on your comments, I would guess (and hope) you believe the same.

    As for quoting the bible (per your other comment), just because it’s biblical doesn’t make it relevant or necessary. We have to discern the cultural and historical contexts and adhere to the teachings that are timeless, like “submit to one another” and “there is neither male nor female.”

    I appreciate your willingness to debate civilly and invite open discussion. Some on here, not so much. So thank you. God bless.

  • mrichardson84

    And maybe I misinterpreted his implications. But that’s how I read it.

  • Nick Bell

    For the record, that was exactly my reaction to his response. I have absolutely no clue how you reached your conclusion. Especially given this quote: “My belief is that only proper response to persons (of whatever gender) is love.”
    Perhaps I should expand on the point: That is the ONLY proper response to each and every person. Not just a woman you’re interested in or your wife. Every single person.
    And lest I be misrepresented again, my understanding of love necessarily includes as a part of it that it be between equal, based on mutual respect, and an affirmation of the value/dignity of the other.
    And I get all of these beliefs specifically from a “Church education.” The part of my last post that I re-quoted here is from the thought of Pope John Paul II (who consistently wrote extremely highly on the value of women).

  • Nick Bell

    What I was intending to imply in my first post here was that the Head is also a part of the body. They are intimately connected and are ONE. Their good is the same good.
    Because of this Joan of Arc could say of Christ, head of the Church, that Christ and the Church are just one thing and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.

  • cjdmdmekd

    I really appreciated your comments on this.

  • cjdmdmekd

    You responded above with “LOL” as your entire comment to someone who disagreed with you. It turns out fundamentalists really are hypocrites.

  • cjdmdmekd

    You are a fundamentalist. Quit debating it and just focus on the issues here.

  • cjdmdmekd

    I feel sorry for your wife. She was probably abused as a child and never learned that she deserves so much better. I’m agnostic, but if God is real, you’re going to H*** for mistreating women.

  • cjdmdmekd

    Kim Il Sung pretended to be a God. The kids were brainwashed with that teaching in school. Kind of like how fundamentalists like you brainwash children with the teaching that men are supposed to rule like gods over women.

  • cjdmdmekd

    Kim Il Sung. See my comment above.

  • Nick Bell

    Actually, no I did not. I actually haven’t said “lol” on this entire page except for right now. That was another commenter. Get your facts straight next time before you try to slander someone.

  • Khurram Aziz

    It’s as disgusting as the old hindu brahmanical belief in the caste system which puts shudras as inferior for having emanated from the feet of God, while brahmins are vastly superior with according superior rights because they emanated from his head..that btw is not the only similarity between christianity and the more ancient hinduism .

    The following correspondence should blow the lid off of biblical religious sexism for good!

    John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word..” is ripped off/plagiarized from the Vedas “Prajapati vai idam agre aseet..”In the beginning was Prajapati (=The Father of All Creatures) with Whom was Vac(The Word)”..”Vac” (from which are derived the words vacuum,vacant and “vaca” in italian & “vache” in french) is a name for the Goddess Aditi Saraswati the Mother of All Creation…QED…VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!


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