the public stoning of Miley Cyrus

public stoning of miley cyrus and thicke cartoon by nakedpastor david hayward

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Right out of the gate I want to assure you that I’m not judging Miley Cyrus or Robin Thicke in this cartoon and post. This cartoon is about us, not them. I’m sure Cyrus doesn’t mind the press.

Actually, before this ever happened they were saying, “Let’s do something people will NEVER forget!” And they did. Mission accomplished. I don’t feel sorry for Cyrus. She’ll make mistakes like the rest of us, but she’s a smart, savvy, talented woman.

What I am critiquing is our reaction to her. Cyrus receives all the criticism. Thicke barely none. Many suggest, and I’m listening, that this is one huge, public and graphic exposure of the rape culture we live in.

Here’s the critique of one sexologist:

“Dear Society,
If you think a woman in a tan vinyl bra and underwear, grabbing her crotch and grinding up on a dance partner is raunchy, trashy, and offensive but you don’t think her dance partner is raunchy, trashy, or offensive as he sings a song about “blurred” lines of consent and propagating rape culture, then you may want to reevaluate your acceptance of double standards and your belief in stereotypes about how men vs. women “should” and are “allowed” to behave.

Sincerely,
Dr. Jill”

The bewilderment so many express towards Cyrus’ act betrays their confusion in the face of a blatant challenge of our stereotypes and double standards. The challenge is deserved.

In fact, it was such a blatant challenge that sometimes I wonder if this wasn’t all performed for this very purpose.

About David Hayward

David Hayward runs the blog nakedpastor as a graffiti artist on the walls of religion where he critiques religion… specifically Christianity and the church. He also runs the online community The Lasting Supper where people can help themselves discover, explore and live in spiritual freedom.

  • Wendy Smith

    I don’t know, David. I know that I saw Miley do exactly the same types of moves that I’ve seen (and done) as a stripper. And in society, I think people look down on those men who attend strip clubs as much as they look down on strippers themselves. However, men are more likely to admit they have attended a strip club than a woman is to admit that she was a stripper at one point. (Most women who aren’t me, that is.)

    I know that part of the outcry is that the VMAs are supposed to be somewhat family friendly. And THAT particular performance was not something I would be happy letting a small child watch. Then again, my kids, when they were young, never watched shows that were inappropriate, including awards shows.

    I know all about rape culture. I try not to perpetuate it in my kids. It is awfully hard. I try to point out the things I see that unequal, unfair, and a double standard. But it is so very pervasive. At one point in my life, I didn’t report someone for rape because I felt like I “asked” for it by making a poor choice. That is rape culture. Because nothing I could do, ever, up to and including walking naked down the middle of the street, justifies someone taking that which was never offered. But we do that, don’t we? If a guy is walking down the street with a shirt off, we don’t think twice. A girl walks around in a bikini top, away from the beach or a pool, and she’s exposing herself (in more ways than one.)

    Rape culture permeates every aspect of our lives. I am a military rape survivor. I went through the courts martial. I had to fight tooth and nail to keep my career on track while my rapist got to continue unabated in his until the conviction. I had HIS actions follow me like a scarlet letter into the fleet. It was hard enough to earn respect because I was woman, throw in that “I was big on the sexual harassment program” (which was the rumor that proceeded me into my command) and you can understand the difficulties.

    I wasn’t a fan of “Blurred Lines” before the VMA debacle. I realized that I don’t like when women are called a bitch and the unedited version of that song says “You’re the hottest bitch in this place.” I saw the video and it certainly does propagate the patriarchal society–half naked women dancing around fully clothed men. I don’t care who you are, the one less exposed is less vulnerable. It is simple as that. So that was a simple power play in the video and I’m not a fan of that. The tune is catchy, though.

  • Andy

    Good point. It takes two to tango.

    But the real injustice here is that MTV had a Video Music Awards ceremony. And how long has it been since MTV showed music videos? Hypocrisy at its worst.

  • Carolyn Garcia

    Taking on the role of objectification is not a way to protest objectification–just like being a good slave or donning black face was never considered a radical act of resistance
    .
    .

  • cassandratoday

    Another angle on the performance from Nico Lang at Thought Catalog — No matter what we’re saying about it, from nakedpastor to gospelcoalition, we’re so distracted by the sexual aspects of it that we’re ignoring an equally important issue: white appropriation of black culture. That’s not to say that the discussions of rape culture and women’s sexual agency aren’t important — just that they shouldn’t lead us to give the performance a free pass on its cultural appropriation, or in harsher terms, racism.

    Article here: http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/cultural-appropriation-is-a-bigger-problem-than-miley-cyrus/

  • Wayne Johnson

    Very true regarding the inconsistency of our reaction to the woman versus the man. I do have a question though … in blurred lines, what are the lines that are blurred? The lyrics do not really sound like “blurred lines of consent” or “rape culture” to me – he clearly talks about waiting for the woman to take an interest.

    The way you grab me / Go ahead, get at me
    I feel so lucky / You wanna hug me

    Hit me up when you passing through
    I just watch and wait for you to salute

  • http://www.drewplaysdrums.com/ Drew Allen

    I definitely think they both were classless, but to me, there was a difference in terms of shock value and here’s why:

    Robin Thicke has A) not been nearly as famous as Miley Cyrus has been, nor been famous for as long, and B) has never presented nor acted anything like a healthy, moral role model for young people. He’s not been gross or disgusting, but not wholesome or upstanding or Disney-approved.

    So when he does something like he did Sunday night, I’m not shocked, and I know he wasn’t trying to shock me. It’s the same as he’s always been.

    Miley Cyrus, on the other foam hand, has for years been a good, wholesome, fun and upstanding role model for young women across the country. She was Disney approved and squeaky clean.

    So for her to then do what she did Sunday night, not only was it shocking for everyone watching, but it was clear that she was going out of her way to provoke that reaction for the viewers.

    Again, I’m not saying that they’re not both guilty of whatever-you-call-that, I’m just saying, I don’t think it’s out of place for society to be more shocked that Miley did what she did than by what Thicke did.

    It’s like the dirty old man who goes to a strip club every day is gross for sure, but you’re not surprised to see him. But when you catch the pastor’s 18 yr. old daughter on the pole, it’s FAR more shocking.

    Plus, who are you to judge if you’re in the strip club seeing her there? :D I kid, I kid.

    Hope what I’m saying makes sense.

  • Pat68

    “Family-friendly”? I guess I never would have thought that regarding MTV.

  • Jeannie Boen

    They are both acting stupid. I know I usually make deeper comments but that’s all the emotional energy I want to invest in :”Miley Gate”. Maybe I should care what these silly celebrities do. I just don’t.

  • Aemcpa

    That you would describe such filth as “culture” of any kind is a slap in the face to Dr. King and the rest of the civil rights movement.

  • cassandratoday

    Aemcpa, whether you are willfully misinterpreting what I wrote, or you just don’t know one of the widely used definitions of “culture”, my answer is the same: Both my comment, and the article to which I refer, use this definition of culture: “the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.” Or, in this case, *hip-hop culture*.
    (That’s from dictionary.com, but I’m sure you can find a similar definition in any other dictionary.)

    Did you even read the article I linked to? Or do you just not understand the concept of cultural appropriation by a privileged group of an oppressed group’s cultural symbols? Or are you just trolling, saying something outrageous with no concern for how it fits into the conversation?

  • Geri Rister

    My first reaction was shame on us! Make no mistake we have created this culture where simulating sex on the dance floor is ok. The very day I read about Robin thicke and Miley cyrus I read a “sweet” little post from a Grandma about her little 3yr old grandaughter “shaking her booty” in the Christmas play at their church. We, the puppet masters say it’s cute now, but WE decide when it’s gross later. Simulating sex is gross at all ages! We laugh at the 50s scandal of Elvis and his pelvis – but what does that say about us?

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thecrescat Katrina Fernandez

    Exactly. Disney grooms young girls for profitable consumption by the public like a pedophile grooms it’s victims. Robin Thicke is … who is he again?

  • yogayarnie

    Um, yeah, read all the lyrics this time.

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/robinthicke/blurredlines.html

  • http://religiouscomics.net/ Jeff P

    sarcasm/

    In proper Christian culture, women have the responsibility to be the harbingers of the moral code. Men are just animals and can’t help themselves. There are some women who have never been taught proper Christian behavior and although these women should be avoided, they can sometimes be pitied. Women who have been taught proper Christian behavior but never-the-less engage in such deviance deserve public ridicule, are despicable, and deserve stoning.

    Robin Thickle > Lady Gaga > Miley Cyrus

    /sarcasm

    The double-double standard.

  • Sarah

    http://iamrihanna.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/dear-miley/ a very thought out response to Miley. As for the double standard, I agree with you that men shouldn’t be able to get away with these things either.

  • Chester McMackin

    MY REACTION ……………………..INDIFFERENCE !

    Because it does not have any interest to me other than “another attempt at publicity “, it will not adversely or otherwise have any effect on me.

    That , in itself, may indicate this is a selfish attitude to adopt. Apathy maybe.

    OK……………….So , call it apathetic selfishness. Has, Does ,or Will that affect the readers /watchers in any way?

    Purists , ( if there are any ) can have a field day with this, with the twitching, grinding, bumping, suggesting, or whatever is perceived. From those reactions , there can be an amusement factor stronger than the performances.

    In a week or less it will be all forgotten, and another issue arising, upon which the purists can apply their judgement.

  • http://www.kewp.blogspot.com/ Katherine Willis Pershey

    Seriously – I recall Flea wearing a sock, and nothing else.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Hahaha that’s right katherine. i totally forgot about that. nice sock though.

  • Anna H.

    Well, hmm. First, yeah, Robin Thicke was just as tacky to participate in that act. However, I don’t see where “Blurred Lines” perpetuates a rape culture; seduction, yes; nonconsensual sex, no.

    What dismays me about Miley Cyrus is the same thing that dismays me about the current trend of instantly going to the allowable limit (and a bit over) in dress and act: I get the feeling she feels like she’s proving something; that this is not an artistic statement of anything but rather, that she feels like she needs to do this to be accepted as a female singer and entertainer.

  • Jennifer Arthur

    It’s called slut shaming. A female is not supposed to flaunt her sexuality publicly, but it is fine (even positive) if a male does. The focus is on Miley but none is on Robin, who is 36 yrs old, married, ground up on a 20 y-o, and smacked the ass of one of the back-up singers. He is allowed to–men are supposed to be studs and women are supposed to be demure and virtuous. Well, many women are eschewing that notion. And for the record, there was NOTHING wrong w/her outfit. It’s a 1950s bathing suit, for crying out loud. This says it all for me:

    “If you look back in history
    It’s a common double standard of society
    The guy gets all the glory the more he can score
    While the girl can do the same and yet you call her a whore

    I don’t understand why it’s okay
    The guy can get away with it and the girl gets named
    All my ladies come together and make a change
    Start a new beginning for us everybody sing”

    FWIW…..it’s called “growing up”. Kids who worked for Disney (which is, in itself, evil and misogynistic), have no obligation to maintain pure, sweet, delicate, kid-friendly demeanor for the rest of their lives.

  • Jennifer Arthur

    I still do not understand the issue with her outfit. It is nothing more than this, from the ’50s:

  • TRUTH

    For me (and many others) it is not about the sexuality of the performance (this is something we’ve become accustomed to seeing from pop-stars), but the exploitation of black culture. She literally uses black women as a prop in the first half of the performance.

    She basically did a modern minstrel show.

    As for Robin Thicke? He’s literally a washed up pop-relic from the 2000s. I think his horrible off-key live performance at the VMAs was embarassing enough, and the Miley twerk was just the overshadowing cherry on top. I predict “blurred lines” will be his one hit wonder for another ten years unless you guys keep letting him be famous.

    I don’t know if you know this, but celebrities intentionally start controversy to remain relevant and thus make money (Miley with this whole twerking thing and Robin Thicke with Blurred Lines themes and lyrics). Let them die in obscurity, this is just the story of the week.

  • Brandi Nuse-Villegas

    The women are actually topless in the unedited version.

  • http://thehomespunlife.com/ Sisterlisa

    Shocked by Miley? Seriously? She posed as a MINOR in a risque photo shoot for Vanity Fair. Her video for the song she sang SHOWS you what to expect of her. and your comparison between her and Thicke is PART of the problem with this rape culture. Because he wasn’t portrayed as a role model makes his rapist philosophy in music more tolerable?

  • http://thehomespunlife.com/ Sisterlisa

    What if a woman sang the words to men? Would that be just as permissible? Go read ALL the lyrics. His words portray the attitude of “I know you want me to f* you, so just touch me already and I’ll give it to you” he also speaks ‘to the woman’ in his lyrics that he’ll “give her something big enough to split her a$$ in two” He’s flaunting words that portray a desire to rape women and assuming the women actually want that.

  • http://thehomespunlife.com/ Sisterlisa

    David, people just don’t get it.

  • http://www.drewplaysdrums.com/ Drew Allen

    As I said TWICE above, I’m NOT SAYING They are not both guilty in all of this. TWICE I said it. One more time may help. They are both in the wrong. I never said I didn’t that. Neither in my opinion is tolerable.

    I was only making a point about shock being based on something unexpected as opposed to something expected.

    Robin Thicke never put his name in the collective mindset of American society at all, let alone as a role model for anyone.

    Miley Cyrus on the other hand, whether she asked for it or not, permeated American Pop Culture as a positive, clean role model for girls.

    And yes, she has been telegraphing her… let’s call it a “paradigm shift”, for longer than just Sunday, but all the parents who let their girls enjoy Hannah Montana aren’t always monitoring the celebrity music scene to see the new videos, so they may not know… but this whole thing was pretty unavoidable by anyone who has facebook or twitter. So I’m sure there was lots of shocked people watching this.

    Beyond that, a philosophy in lyrics, no matter how bad, is less noticeable on national television than a striking visual image, like, a nearly naked girl. 99 out of a 100 people are going to notice that more. We’re all visual people, the last two generations more than any prior. So most people notice Miley Cyrus before they notice the rapist lyrics in Thicke’s music.

    Again, I’m not excusing Robin Thicke at all here. I’m only stating that for the nation as a whole to seem more shocked at Miley than Thicke is pretty natural.

  • Andy

    “Sluts” should be ashamed. (Males included.)

  • http://www.drewplaysdrums.com/ Drew Allen

    I can see above where the fabric gives some and bunches up in places, which implies that it’s A) made of fabric and B) that it’s not skintight. I’m sorry, wearing a few scraps of flesh colored latex that are far too tight for your size does not equate with this 50s.

    You’re right in that it’s nothing more. It is in fact much less.

  • 65snake

    Unless you are prepared to apply that label equally to both genders, for identical behaviour, just shut it.

  • Kenneth Bond

    They already have, look up Robin Thicke “Blurred Lines” Sexy Boys
    Parody by Mod Carousel

  • http://thehomespunlife.com/ Sisterlisa

    ya I saw it… my point being..would it be acceptable.. and yet that’s such a deep topic that many men don’t understand. They haven’t been the subject of sexism and abuse for thousands of years like women have. And men, in general, LIKE to be subjected to sex.

  • Emily

    Actually, I’ve seen in old texts where they said that women are mentally and morally weaker than men, so they can’t control themselves as well, and men need to be morally strong.

  • Emily

    Naw, it’s a desire to have consensual sex with a woman, and he assumes that women also enjoy sex.

  • Emily

    Robin wasn’t wearing a Speedo, though.

  • klhayes

    While I wasn’t thrilled about the performance, I actually did not see Miley as less vulnerable. I think that is what angers many. A strong woman. Just like when Madonna wrote the book sex, people were so angry. I didn’t get it but now I do. Women are not supposed to be in control, particularly when it has to do with sexuality or being sexual.

  • klhayes

    LOL! Good one, Andy!

  • klhayes

    I think Disney is the problem…they are the goodie goodie and then they grow up. They don’t want that image anymore. And we can’t stand that they want to break away from it.

  • klhayes

    You wonder how we are ever supposed to ineract…the man who wants to take our “virtue” and the women fighting to keep theirs….lol

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Great point klhayes and i’m glad you made it

  • Bob_Saget

    There is a lot with the entire VMA performance as well as its reception that bothers me. Let me preface this all by saying that I think both Miley and Robin were out of place and entirely inappropriate. While I don’t think that they needed to make their act completely family friendly as little children shouldn’t be watching MTV altogether, I think that they should have made it a bit more [okay, a lot more] tasteful.

    Firstly, I totally agree that it is complete and utter bullshit that Miley is taking most of the heat for the scandal. It wasn’t like Thicke was caught up in some whirlwind that forced him to be grinded against by a 20 year old girl, despite himself being married with children. Also, I am just generally not a fan of his song because while it is catchy, it’s about equally as rape-y. Not cool. He should also be on the receiving end of about an equal amount of criticism as Cyrus.

    Elaborating a bit on Miley getting a ton of shit, the backlash she’s receiving on social media is utterly horrible. Trending on twitter was “Mileyasssmallerthan”. People also made fun of her body in other ways, claiming that she didn’t have a big enough butt to twerk [silly people, twerking isn't about what's on your butt, it's about what's in your heart]. Now, I don’t know if I was brought up differently, but there is absolutely no situation in which bullying is acceptable or funny. I am certain that most people on that tag have posted on their facebooks and what have you against bullying, against people killing themselves because of what people say to them, yet there they are, harassing someone. Perhaps they forgot that despite being a celebrity, Miley Cyrus is in fact a human being.

    What the performance also made me realize is our societies fear of sex. We say it like a dirty word despite it being something totally natural, beneficial. I personally feel like sex is made out to be the be-all-end-all. It isn’t that big of a deal, it shouldn’t be a gross thing. With that, society seems to even more detest female sexuality. Just listen to the radio. Chances are, it’s a song by a man about sex [ie. Blurred Lines]. That, though, is totally fine. Now if a woman were to express her sexuality in any way, it would be referred to as risque, perhaps even appalling. When it comes to how often women have sex and when they start to have sex, goodness gracious me oh my is there grief about that. ‘Losing your virginity’, ‘deflowering’, it makes it seem like you are less pure, less good. That really isn’t so for men. In fact, the more sex a man has, the better a person he is [in most cases]. Pardon my feminism, though. Likewise, pardon this big-ass rant.

  • Jackie 42

    Good points on the inequities and double standards that are everywhere. I did not see the act (not an award-show – of any kind – viewer). Voyeurism is what passes for publicity in so many arenas that it is hard to be genuinely shocked.

    I would personally argue that Ms. Cyrus is less talented than you claim and this type of misdirection is as old as vaudeville: “with gams like that, who cares if she can sing?”

    This geezer will stick with Annie Clark, Florence Welch, Adele, Feist, Brittany Howard. Real talent without the pole dancing, thank you.

  • cassandratoday

    The reason I’m not indifferent myself — even though I don’t own a TV, let alone watch awards shows — is because many, many people do watch this stuff. And many of them form their opinions and shape their values both from the pop culture event itself, and from the discussions afterward.

    Then these people vote.

    I want my voice heard while these folks are forming their opinions and shaping their values, because I care how they vote.

    Sure, I’m just one person, and few if any will hear my voice. But if I *don’t* speak, *nobody* will hear my voice.

  • http://argent-smith.tumblr.com Pavel Argentov

    What else, David, would you expect from a society totally screwed up with their stupidity and prejudice? Even the Bible they see as a washing machine manual. What’s about MTV shows then?

    I once said an Alabamian friend of mine: your life’s so good that the worst problem you have is the MTV singer’s crotch. Now I’d add: tell these problems to the Girls of Pussy Riot band.

  • ttm

    This was my first thought as well, klhayes. Women are not supposed to be in control sexually, and it makes a great many people angry when they see a strong woman who owns her sexuality. Though there is always an exception to “the rule” … The sexual power of a Dominatrix excites many–and BDSM culture, which was once considered taboo or private, is becoming more mainstream.

    While I believe that women should be comfortable being sexual, should own their sexuality, and should not only be “allowed” to speak about and to act sexually but should be encouraged to tell and live their sexual truths, I am still usually uncomfortable when I see women acting overtly sexual on a public platform. I think it’s because I wonder if they really are acting from their own intentions/wills or if they are merely pretending something because they have been conditioned to or because they realize that women will likely always be sexualized and objectified so they might as well be their own pimps. (I might even go so far as to compare it to someone who is the victim of a tyrannical government, who fights the tyranny, and then when in a position of power becomes the tyrant.)

    This whole Madonna/whore dilemma is a tough nut to crack-for men and women. I am neither and both. I’m guessing Miley is too … The difference is that I didn’t just put my complicated self up on an awkward stage for the whole world to see and critique.

  • jbx978

    What if suddenly at the next music awards show Lil Wayne performs and has half naked girls grinding on him? And what if during the same night
    Adele performs and has guys that nearly strip down and begin grinding on
    her when she performs? What happens? People are outraged that Adele
    went all crazy having guys stripping and grinding on her and no one says
    a word about Lil Wayne. Why? Because it’s completely expected out of
    Lil Wayne and not at all out of Adele. Artists build reputations of
    what can generally be expected of them. When those expected reputations
    change dramatically with unfamiliar behavior, criticism is unleashed.
    Especially when there is an established level of trust and expectation
    in a role-model character for children and then seemingly that all significantly changes
    in a single performance. This is exactly what happened. Sure, there
    are probably levels of double-standard. But at the same time, I don’t
    think that is what happened here. Robin Thicke is known for his
    highly-sexualized lyrics and music videos. He was never a role-model
    for kids on the Disney channel. He wasn’t made famous in another role.
    This is what we’ve come to expect of him. Miley Cyrus, on the other
    hand, has been the exact opposite. So yes, when she came out on the
    stage in her overtly and overly sexual performance people were
    outraged. And understandably so. Not because she can’t be that type of
    person. But because she has not been that type of person before.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    Read the lyrics:
    http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/r/robin_thicke/blurred_lines.html

    I know you want it
    But you’re a good girl
    The way you grab me
    Must wanna get nasty
    Go ahead, get at me

    Just because a woman grabs a man doesn’t mean she wants to “get nasty”.

    The lyrics also infantilize women (“girl”), insult them (“bitch” is used), objectify them (“What do they make dreams from / When you got them jeans on”), suggests women need a man to “liberate” them. And there’s a line that goes “I’ll smack that ass and pull your hair like that”. Not if a woman doesn’t want that, you don’t!

    It’s sexist and disgusting.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    She should definitely be called out for exploiting black culture.

  • michael_lowry

    They prefer to be called sex workers, and no, they should not be ashamed. Societies that shun and marginalized them should be ashamed.

  • michael_lowry

    Your reaction of disbelieving Puritanical disgust has historical precedents. In the late 1700s, people were shocked by the sexually suggestive waltz[1].

    In every generation, there will be those who are disgusted by the openness of the next. Please disabuse yourself of the notion that your particular notions of modesty and propriety hold special significance.

    1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_Waltz#History

  • Radek Milik

    My own initial comments were the same – not only Cyrus was Thrashy, but Thicke as well. And they are both talentless anyway.

  • http://rationaloutlook.wordpress.com/ rationaloutlook

    One point that everyone conveniently keeps ignoring is that VMA was approved as appropriate for kids as young as 14. I don’t have a problem if Thicke and Miley did that in a strip club or an adult movie. But this is different. DON’T ignore this point. Women’s rights (or rights of any other minority either) do NOT depend on being able to perform raunchily in front of kids.

    By the way, the Parents TV Council has already blasted MTV.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/26/parents-television-council-mtvs-vmas-ptc_n_3818203.html

  • Trudy Kretschmer

    I find the entire thing offensive. I did not watch the VMA, not my thing, but I did want to check out what all the brou haha was about so caught in on YouTube. As a woman, I don’t like EITHER ONE of those songs which in Thicke’s case promote the rape mentality to a catchy tune (great hook btw) and in Cyrus’ case is just a degrading display of vulgarity which should be left in strip clubs for over 21 year olds. If she is representative of young American women’s culture these days, I am despairing for our society. When I was a young girl, approaching the tweenie stage, the women who were “sexy” were Marilyn Monroe with her white skirt blowing up and Sophia Loren in her little black low cut dress with black sheer stockings. Men found them both gorgeous and stunning. It was sufficient to stimulate the imagination and interest level. Just as shooting in movies, showed no blood, but got the point across. Now, I believe our culture is so INCREDIBLY desensitized that young people are simulating sex on stage and gore/slasher movies are required to fulfill whatever the heck is the perverse requirement these days to get people to feel they’ve been entertained or titillated. What next…..lions eating people in coliseums?

    Additionally, I did not appreciate her using African American women as props in her act.

  • http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/ Lothar Lorraine

    “Dear Society,

    If you think a woman in a tan vinyl bra and underwear, grabbing her
    crotch and grinding up on a dance partner is raunchy, trashy, and
    offensive but you don’t think her dance partner is raunchy, trashy, or
    offensive as he sings a song about “blurred” lines of consent and
    propagating rape culture, then you may want to reevaluate your
    acceptance of double standards and your belief in stereotypes about how
    men vs. women “should” and are “allowed” to behave.

    
Sincerely,

    Dr. Jill””

    Oh yeah this is undoubtedly true… unless one denies that men and women have fundamentally the same rights and duties…

    Lothars Sohn – Lothar’s son

    http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.com

  • Alice Lauren

    What if she wants her ass smacked and hair pulled?

  • alwr

    Robin Thicke was never sold to tweens and their parents as a role model. I know parents who bought the whole thing. Invested in it so to speak by never discouraging young daughters’ obsession with the entire Hannah Montana thing and spending money on concerts, dvds, movies, and associated products. Many of them feel let down and if their daughters are still a bit young, justifiably concerned at the road this supposed “role model” is taking. That is the difference in responses.

  • Sandyhams

    ….they show music videos in the morning

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    ONLY if she wants it and gives enthusiastic consent. But not every woman does want that. That’s my point. If there’s no consent, it’s WRONG.

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    And the exploitation of black women. Also disgusting.

  • http://nuannaarpoq.wordpress.com/ thalassa

    I was actually going to point out Madonna. Miley isn’t exactly forging thought the underbrush, bushwhacking a new trail here… I think that this is less a virgin/whore dichotomy issue than it is not seeing her as being a grown up. Most people know Miley Cyrus from being Hannah Montana–a show their kids watched…which pretty much makes this like a dad walking into a bachelor party for a buddy and finding out his daughter is part of the entertainment.

  • klhayes

    I think the virgin/whore dichotomy is very much apart of our culture but you bring up a good point. People felt like they owned her innocence as Hannah Montana. The daughter/stripper is a good analogy.

  • mmoon1

    I was kind of disgusted by them both.. he’s a married man– I don’t care if it’s an act or not- the whole thing was inappropriate. And he looks like a clone of his dad- that creeps me out.

  • Benjamin JJ Carpenter

    Hmm. I’ve heard enough hatred against Robin Thicke to doubt that this is necessarily true. I’ve not heard good things about either of them to be fair.

  • wds

    And we also have to consider the TV audience’s part in all this. MTV/VMA’s have trained us as an audience to expect this from them. The day after the show, one of the entertainment news outlets showed that the show actually had the highest rating of the night. MTV knew exactly what they were doing, and how much outrage they were going to get …and it worked. (remember Fartman – Howard Stern a few years ago). Outrage can generate a ton of publicity (as this has) and makes more people want to watch the show to “see what they can see” …. :)

  • Kristi Stargazer-Lily De Seve

    different worlds and attitudes about sex, obviously. i see nothing about rape in these lyrics. these words between two consenting adults made sex that much better for my (ex) husband and me for 20 years. i guess you have to be into that sort of thing, sister-woman. you know… consenting. is it possible that you hear rape because the words scare you; you can’t relate? i don’t because i had a sexual relationship where this sort of language was approved of by both parties.

  • Marina

    I’m glad someone is pointing this out, although it seems to do little to change most people’s mind. Miley is the “slut” while Thicke is a *man* (said with fawning admiration). I don’t follow the hip-hop scene, but from I’ve recently heard about Thicke’s lyrics on Blurred Lines, I am sickened! Why is no one talking about this!?! Why is no one outraged about this!? Miley was actually wearing more than Lady Gaga was that night, and although I would never say it was a class act, it was no more salacious than the dancing in any video seen on TV any day of the week. And Thicke’s sick lyrics are prevalent throughout hip-hop culture! Cherry-picking Miley to slam for a whole industry’s grossness, blasting the woman but not the man, is what concerns me a lot more than one dance. As for the tongue… it actually reminded of the Maori warrior dances, where dancers stick out their tongues in an exaggerated manner to show fierceness.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Thanks Marina. Well said.

  • elizakei

    This is the problem with having (and condoning) a 16 year-old girl as a role model / obsession. She’s still a kid. She doesn’t know what sort of adult she wants to become. Her fans/their parents may not like her decision. And she should feel no obligation to be other than she is because people spent money on her childhood TV persona. That said, people are visual. Robin Thicke may be singing sexist words (in a questionable outfit) but she was bent 90 degrees wiggling her arse into his crotch with her tongue permanently hanging down to her neck. SHE created the visual. Was her right. People have a right to call it tacky.

  • thechadmesser

    One point that a lot of articles ignore while laying equal blame on both Thicke and Cyrus is that while yes, Thicke sang a tasteless song while he and Cyrus danced tastelessly, Cyrus had a good 5 minutes of tasteless solo performance before that that Thicke had nothing to do with. So yes, they both contributed to rape culture, but Cyrus doesn’t get absolved just because there was a creepy man present.

  • david

    Let’s be honest, this is simply an issue of people talking trash because Miley is the new Britney Spears.

    She is the young attractive youth star in the music industry that tabloids and teen mags all obsess over. They do this because sex sells, simple as that, if you have sex appeal you are heavily marketable. Though sex isn’t the only big seller, drama is a huge market, especially to women.(no offense, but but that’s the market data)

    People will act like what she did is so wild or out of the norm because the tab mags do and so popular opinion suggests they mock in order to fit in.

    People who support her actions are people who aren’t worried about fitting in with pop culture.

    Of course some religious groups and persons like that will also mock, but they speak from places of personal interest, and so what they think doesn’t matter, we all know where those opinions originate.

    I’d suggest this can be seen as either empowering or exploitation, depending on your point of view.

    Either way, it’s all much ado about nothing.

    The media follows this because there are bigger issues at play like our rights being stolen by the government, and they need distractions for us.

  • Mariah Turner

    I haven’t thought much of Robin Thicke since his Blurred Lines video came out. I like boobies, but the way the women were objectified in his video was tasteless (he’s a married father of young children, I suppose I expect more). I find Thicke more tasteless for allowing a young woman to “twerk” on him than Cyrus who was doing the twerking…
    That said, I realize Cyrus was going for shock value and is desperately trying to distance herself from Disney. Next time she wants to do something shocking, perhaps she should borrow Lady Gaga’s meat dress.
    I wonder if Gaga is at all irritated that she hardly got any press for her performance?

  • Mariah Turner

    I think all the RHCP wore socks at one point and not much else… Thought that was kinda ick lol

  • taraebergeron

    I think a lot of people misread what is being said. I didn’t have a problem with Miley’s sexuality. I have a problem with her weird, lack of it. He dancing was spastic, her concept was bizarre and her tongue was just–NO! If Miley wants to be “sexual” and masturbate with a foam finger, I don’t care. But her act was terrible and the dance was just one of those SMH/WTF combo moments.

  • Michael Godfrey

    Thanks, Wendy … that’s one of the finest internet posts I’ve ever seen. And yes and amen!

  • Sophia

    That’s not what Robin Thicke’s song is about AT ALL. It’s about the struggle that a young girl goes through when she thinks about having sex for the first time. The “i know you want it but you’re a good girl” is an apt description of what it was like for me as an evangelical christian who wanted to wait until she was married to have sex. I ended up being an enormous TEASE to every man I dated. And I DID want it, but I also wanted to be a good girl. Why do people think this is about forcing sex on someone? There is nothing brutish or angry about the tone. It’s playful and fun and indicative of two young people who are trying to decide whether they want to have sex.

  • joshuabogart

    You’re reading far too much into this, none of it actually matters….at all.

  • Sophia

    When I saw the video of Miley, all I could think was, this is awful… and why is it on my television. and who approved it. Miley was essentially naked and performing sex acts on stage. Who wants to see that? Someone who has paid for a show in Amsterdam in the red light district, that’s who. I mostly just feel bad for the girl, because some day she’s going to look back and say, What was I thinking?

  • summer

    but while only seeing miley once or a few times they will play robins song all over the radio, on iPods and everything over n over n that’ll end up sticking more esp when they memorize the lyrics n begin singing it themselves. of course the same goes for the dance moves but, viaual doesn’t necessarily take the cake over what we hear. in this case, the image will die down eventually but the song will continue to reach ears over n over.

  • Humanism is balance

    First I want to say that I am an anti-feminist because your rape culture crap is pure and utter BS. So are your rape statistics, only a tiny fraction of what you call rape is actually rape and only a tinier fraction of that actually happened and wasn’t false allegations or just a misinterpretation of intent on a survey about whether someone was raped or not passed around a college campus. All you feminist have done is make a hysteria culture, women scared shitless about rapes that aren’t happening.

    WITH THAT SAID! I am very much on your side about this topic, why can’t she express herself freely? Why should she be crucified by society? I am sickened by it, we need a culture that allows human beings to live as they please as long as they do not harm others.

    Stop thinking everybody is out to rape you ffs feminists. Just chill, the boogey man isn’t out to get you all the time, nobody is sleeping under your bed and all that jazz.

    There are rapists out there and the men you call rapists usually aren’t those guys, they are just playing the game many girls make them play to act confident around them and be sexy. Not like we really want to be strutting around like prize cocks all the time ya know, we kind of wouldn’t mind being ourselves but that means being placed back in the pecking order and getting less lady attention so we try to act like we own it all, because we have to.

    At least they do that, I don’t do that, ironically I am the most respectful guy I know even if I tell feminists a thing or two about their BS online. lol

  • Justsayinhere

    All I needed to read was the “pecking order” comment to know exactly what you were trying to argue. You don’t even need to be a feminist to throw PUA tactics out the window as disrespectful at the very least.

    There are borderline sexual assault scenarios that are viewed as standard procedure by much of the PUA crowd – this is clearly not the place to argue that but I feel it’d be wrong not to point out my disagreement with that point – but above and beyond all that are incredibly dehumanizing assumptions about both men and women that underly the process.

    In fact, I’m very surprised at how often MRAs – which you seem to fall in line with – side with PUAs because the rhetoric is so downright insulting to men. It says that women are almost always interested in hooking up with random men who act a certain way – yeah, that’s insulting, but it also says that men who act in certain ways will always lose to people who act like pick-up artists and in fact can never attract a woman on their own. This is even evident in a sentence in your own comment where you basically insult yourself! I fail to see how saying those things to men is any less insulting than making assumptions about what women want.

    Glad you’re shallow enough to see your act as “respectful”, though. And that you liked the VMA show…if only because the act falls in line with your rhetoric and you are too self-absorbed to understand why most men and women have problems with it.

  • Agni Ashwin

    Miley gives the Achaemenids a bad name.

  • msdill

    No one ever looked up Robin Thicke as a teen idol. He did not have a Disney show and have tons of little girls wanting to be like him. People are trying to compare Miley to the likes of Madonna and Lady Gaga, saying they did shocking things. Madonna and Lady Gaga have based their careers on being outrageous. Neither started out as a perky all American girl. Miley should learn from the fallen ones before heri i.e. Lindsay Lohan and Brittany Spears. Sure this speaks of double standards to an extent but when you choose to live your life in the public eye that is what you have to be aware of.

  • Kathleen Henry

    yeah, that was an 1800s shift in mindset. Women can’t control themselves because hormones, so men need to control them > women are “passionless” and need to be controlled by men because they don’t have the initiative to lead themselves. See here for more: http://www.alternet.org/when-women-wanted-sex-much-more-men?page=0%2C1&paging=off

  • Marina

    Exactly! She is a lusty girl and she likes it, and she’s constantly using her sexuality as her favorite form of expression, just like Madonna did. There are a lot of levels to this whole story, but her autonomy over her own sensuality is exactly what bothers people the most, whether they admit that or not. She’s in control! How dare she be?! Couple that with her Disney days and everyone just goes nuts. They act like she’s still 10. And she’s telling us in no uncertain terms that she’s all grown up! BTW, I saw her interviewed one time… she is whip smart, very together, and knows her craft…

  • Marina

    Excellent comments, Wendy! From blaming the victim to the way lyrics which glorify rape and smacking or killing your “bitch” seem to go unnoticed by people who should be in an uproar about it, to the ridiculously light sentences handed out to perpetrators of rape and even murder of a woman or child, our culture is tacitly condoning this mind-set by their very silence. The saddest part is that many women are participating in this kind of thinking as well. I wonder if they think it makes them safe, because if it was the victim who “did something” to cause the rape, then she, by virtue of her own “better” choices, will never be in that position?

  • Marina

    Ah, but that would serve no purpose, since there are thousands more waiting in the wings hoping only to *outdo* these two and attain the holy grail of wealth and fame!

  • Marina

    I was looking at her and Robin so much I didn’t even realize any exploitation of black culture per se. I’d have to re-watch. All I saw was bears. To me it was all just same-old, same-old in the pop genre in general and the kind of one- upmanship you see in every video out here, where the more explicit you can be, the better. And it’s done by both black and white artists all the time. So, I’m not sure about any exploitation here, but I could only be know by watching it again… which I’m not really that eager to do, quite frankly. I have heard this talked about in the last few days, though, so it obviously is of concern to others as well.

  • Marina

    Her outfit was actually no more revealing than any bathing suit. Lady Gaga wore a barely there g-string that night and didn’t even bother to change after performance, preferring to spend the rest of the evening being photographed basically naked. And Robin’s striped suit does not protect him from the truth that he is just another misogynistic proponent of the “rape is okay” culture.

  • Marina

    I felt that way too at first. Just more celebrities acting silly to get attention. But a discussion has been opened up because of it… one which addresses many levels of what is a real problem in our society… “the rape culture”. So, I now actually think it’s been a good thing. Of course, not much will be resolved, all in all. But maybe a few more people will think twice before blindly accepting something which is just not okay. Your avatar appears to show you with two little girls by your side, your daughters I presume. Wouldn’t you wish for them to grow up in a better, less misogynistic, world?

  • Msironen

    “ONLY if she wants it and gives enthusiastic consent.”

    You forgot the triplicate form, signed by the notary and approved by the local Feminist Sex Authority.

  • Dragana Nikolić

    I think that all the fuss about this debacle wasn’t caused by what had been done and that it was done by a woman, but solely by the fact of who the woman is.
    Cyrus played a character that was idolized by many preteen and teen girls and that could had been treated as a roll-model, since both Cyrus and Hannah Montana were famous girls that didn’t let fame to change them and stayed normal, nice girls, that had good relationship with their families.

    I think that the author of the article gives too much credit to her intelligence – IMHO all of that was her final attempt to break free from image she created while playing Montana.
    Was that smart or not, I won’t discuss.

  • NaturalMamaNZ

    I think if roles were reversed, if it was Thicke that acted and dressed like Miley, and it was Miley that acted and dressed like Thicke, the response would be exactly the same – we would all be criticizing Thickes performance right now. It’s not that Miley was provocative that makes us cringe, we’ve all seen provocative before, but it’s usually done with a little more class and sophistication. Miley’s act was so unprofessional we had to cringe. I feel the choreographer did a far worse job than Miley though. Someone needs to be fired.

  • NaturalMamaNZ

    The difference is Gaga is a professional, she knows sexy. Miley just couldn’t pull off sexy I’m afraid.

  • Paula

    Wow you just gave me a lot to think about, klhayes. Thank you for sharing that.

  • Paula

    I didn’t realize that I was focusing on Miley until I read this. I’ve got some soul-searching to do…..

  • Mozzarellacheese

    We already knew that Thicke was a sexist asshat but we expected better from Miley. No, I kid. I don’t care about the sexual bit, it wasn’t that. It was the fact that it was done so artlessly. It wasn’t elegant or powerful, it was just awkward and silly and we all felt secondhand embarrassment from Miley, not because of the sexual acts, but because she should’ve performed better. It’s like watching a world class dancer trying to do the dougie and never really getting the steps, it just didn’t look good.

  • Andy

    Guess what? I do.

  • Andy

    Then they should have aired the VMAs during that time. :)

  • http://demiurgiclust.net shelly

    Twerking is cultural appropriation. Using AVEN and black slang, if you’re not black, is cultural appropriation. Also, she used black women in her performance and in her video, and they were treated as objects, which is disgusting, exploitative, and racist. (Black women and other WOC are hypersexualized and fetishized enough as it is.)

    http://www.racialicious.com/2013/08/28/miley-cyrus-feminism-and-the-struggle-for-black-recognition/

    http://atane.tumblr.com/post/59607489113/zuky-nezua-flappers-shaming-miley-cyrus

    http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/08/on_saying_no_to_a_habitual_twerk-crosser.html

    http://www.gradientlair.com/post/46177438708/black-women-twerking-miley-cyrus-white-privilege

  • 65snake

    Well, good for you. You are certainly in the minority.

    I see that you edited to reflect that.

    RE: your amended statement, why?

  • mrichardson84

    Spoken like a true sexist, privileged male. Only a man would justify slut-shaming. YOU should be ashamed of yourself.

  • GonzoI

    Much of the outrage is visual in nature. We could care less about the VMA’s or the artists who get showcased there, because to most of us, music is produced by a plastic box with speaker holes or a headphone jack, not an artist. But we are presented with an image of a man in decent (albeit tacky) attire that appears to be singing normally and a woman in indecent attire grinding against him while we are told that families are watching. The presentation for this gives nothing to understand why she might cross the line of risque over to the perverse, so she is the only target for the outrage, not Thicke, whose work most of us have never heard outside of a very strange commercial that gives little indication of who the singer is. With modern media distribution having left the record company structures behind, this isn’t the same world that existed in 1980 and before where a successful musician was actually well known.

    Added to that, music has become background noise for many people. They don’t listen to the lyrics of hundreds of songs with messages that explicitly talk about sexual acts, or promote sexism and racism. The evil things our fearful grandparents told our parents that rock and roll “devil’s music” held are actually being put into music now, and we’re too inured to care until it presents itself visually, as with Cyrus.

    Even considering Thicke represents a growing culture of “it’s ok if I put it to music”, though, Cyrus was only recently a role model for many children in a family-friendly series of programs, only to be performing a sex act in a public setting where it was understood that that behavior was beyond the pale. There is considerably more reason to be upset with her than with Thicke, whose audience seems to primarily be like-minded individuals.

    Neither are innocent, but the outrage isn’t misplaced. Ultimately, Thicke acted within expected parameters while Cyrus violated the trust of the audience and the venue.

  • Thursday1

    This works both ways though. Male sexuality is thought of as unimportant generally, for both good and bad. Female sexuality is thought of as important, for good and bad. As an example, most rape actually occurs in prison with stronger males raping weaker males. Nobody cares. Just like nobody cares, one way or the other, about Robin Thicke.

  • Andy

    To clarify my intent.

  • Humanism is balance

    Well first of all, I knew entering my opinion here would cause some sort of disagreeable rhetoric to be spewed at me. Logical fallacies like there is a such thing as a “Borderline Sexual Assault”, I would have to point out the obvious that there is either assault or not assault in this world. A person either consents to sex or they do not consent to sex. I AM AN MRA and damn proud btw because quite frankly you feminists have no interest in anything resembling equal rights for both genders no matter what the dictionary might say falsely about feminism.

    As for my shallow act and my relation to pick up artists, well there is a game and women made it that way because in the end they have the reproductive rights. Men do not have any say, we are not the ones who decide whether we are allowed to have sex at all unless it is with each other. Why is picking up a woman an art? Because there are barriers of defense with every woman that must be overcome in order to have any reproductive opportunity unless she outright chases down a man and orders him to have sex.

    So no, your logic, as usual (feminists have none) is flawed.

    No, in person I generally play along with the rules FEMINISTS have deemed to make for men in society that society also decided to accept as social norms. I tend to be excessively careful and even double check for consent. I even listen to feminists trash talk men and say nothing really. You know, those likes like “They’re all the same” or “Men are stupid” or “Men are pigs”, the crap feminists invented and called equality while calling the same language back misogyny and in many cases denying the existence of any such thing as misandry.

    Look I didn’t come here for anything more than this, I wanted to show support for Miley because she had every right to do what she did. The entertainment industry was like this for decades, we had Paula Abdul and Madonna in the 80s, we had plenty of sexual celebrities in the 90s and 2000s, nothing is new and kids were exposed to every bit of it.

    I am just sick of hearing “Rape culture” and “Patriarchy”, to call a girl a slut is not “Rape Culture” it is indeed “Shaming” I will agree and I do denounce it. “Patriarchy” is traditionalism but you can’t just pick everything you hate and blame it on male rule because we had plenty of queens making rules over the centuries and Victorian culture being the most oppressive was by guess whom? Queen Victoria’s rule!

    So please, stop pointing a finger and start looking toward human peace. You will indeed hear that theme from the rest of the MRAs because that’s what we want, humanism.

  • Deuce Loosely

    But when what you’re seeing is so disturbing and awful that you don’t hear what’s going on in the background, obviously the song takes a back seat to the graceless, skanky display she put on. Miley is the very essence of trying too hard and that makes it also sad. I’m not practicing a double-standard here because I can’t stand either of them but one happened to come out looking worse than the other that night.

    And okay…mission accomplished in doing something people will never forget but apparently this is being remembered for all the reasons they didn’t want. She’s just as bad for allowing that song to be a part of her act. By extension, you could say she condones what the song was saying but, either way, the entire act was trashy and tasteless.

    Honestly, I think he got less recognition because it was her spot he was riding…

  • Deuce Loosely

    Yep. That was their gimmick back in the day. When they first started playing, as musically advanced and talented as they were, they made their mark by, as Anthony Keidis put it, “rocking out with our cocks out.”

  • 65snake

    LOL…let me clarify my question.

    Why should sluts be shamed?

  • Bill Devey

    I saw 20 seconds of this sludge on a news program. Everyone associated with this slop should be ashamed of themselves. I do think though that Cyrus deserves greater heat because her actions were the focal point of the act. She could have refused to perform in this way and the producers would have had to give in. She chose shock over dignity and her actions should get no pass. I also think that Thicke is at fault as well for his participation. He also could have refused to demean himself in this way. Remember though that without Cyrus the whole thing wouldn’t work. In the long run though, it is the VMAs and what else would you expect.

  • mfan2

    Thanks for the heads up that you were being sarcastic in your rankings :)
    Miley > Gaga > Thicke

  • Pookie Gibson

    what bothers me is how after all these years, we see tons of women being objectified in song and videos, but we say not one word. We see mothers dressing their 4 year olds like hookers and no one says a thing. Miley twerks against a guys crotch and we all go “scarlet letter” on her.

  • Marina

    Well, I certainly agree with that last statement, except I’d say ALL women. I apologize for not being more aware. I don’t live in the US and although I’m certainly aware of racism, I am perhaps not as informed as I could be. Thank you so much for the links. I will follow up!

  • Marina

    Well, I don’t find Lady Gaga appealing, so I guess I’m a poor judge of sexy. To me, sexy is Sade Adu… cool, stunning, sensual but always always class. American music folk just make me think no class in general, be it Gaga or any number of other characters.

  • NoLewis_JustNo

    It really isn’t an issue of double standards here. This is the scenario, society is shocked at the once innocent girl they saw on Disney performing as she did. Robin Thicke was never an innocent image that kids used to watch or look up to so when he is seen in provocative videos/performances it’s not much of a shock. Get it? Besides, society already accepts men as lewd animals ready to pounce on innocent prey. NoLewis_JustNo doesn’t approve of this article.

  • Sarah Warren

    Wow. Well done for displaying your painful ignorance of rape culture. And it would be highly amusing to me that you consider yourself the most respectful guy you know if it wasn’t so incredibly depressing.

    Just because you don’t go around raping people does not negate rape culture. It does not negate victim blaming. It does not negate the fact that a woman who has sex is deemed a slut and a man who has sex is deemed a stud. It does not negate the fact that so many cultures expect women to be virgins but men to be “experienced”. It doesn’t negate the fact that a judge can, within this last week, put equal blame on a 14 year old girl and the 49 year old teacher who had sex with her, and excuse it as her being “troubled”, because apparently it’s OK to sleep with a child if that child is troubled.

    You don’t need to be a feminist to see that the battle for rights is still firmly skewed towards men. Sheesh, your main bugbear is that you feel the need to act cocky around women. Oh my, my heart bleeds. Not. Grow up.

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    geez you’re blind. probably deaf too.

  • Danielle Heriford

    I feel like she was trying too hard to stay relevant, if so she chose a terrible way to go about it. It just doesn’t work for her and it wasn’t a good performance.

  • Humanism is balance

    Your reply was so full of lies that I don’t even know where to start. Repeat after me idiot, rape culture was made up, the statistics are mostly college drunk hookups which ever kid does at some point almost unless they have some off the wall ideas on morality.

    Victim blaming? What is that? You mean like telling someone they should lock their door next time instead of getting their house robbed? Again, stupidity.

    “It does not negate the fact that a woman who has sex is deemed a slut and a man who has sex is deemed a stud.”

    WRONG! <– couldn't be caps enough. That statement is wrong, in case you didn't notice I said that statement is wrong. It is a LIE, blatantly a lie.

    Men are called pigs by FEMINISTS for wanting sex, have been for years and years. Men are called he-sluts, man-sluts, tainted meat, man-whores, and outright shamed by every girl they try to openly talk to about sex without going into a relationship. Just having sex is reserved for the finest men out there and the richest. Feminists are even trying to attack prostitution because heaven forbid a man can pay for it and have some control over his reproductive/sexual decisions.

    Don't even get me started on teachers having sex with their students, men all pretty much just call young guys who get molested by teachers "Lucky". I was molested by two adult women growing up too.

    Skewed toward men? Nothing is skewed toward men, we live in a society where women can just say "Off with his head" and quite frankly you want to see it stay that way Ms. Matriarchal propaganda spewer.

    Miley Cyrus is the main topic here, what she did was her decision and her right, if you don't like it then don't watch it.

  • Humanism is balance

    Alright Mr. Artsy tartsy hipster dude. I bet you feel superior being effeminate and acting like some flaming French snob and wearing your little ego ridden quasi intellectual black glasses that say “Oh! Look at me, I watch low budget crap indie films because I see art that other people can’t see, hon hon hon!”

    Pastor? What religion? Must be your own brand of Christianity eh?

  • http://nakedpastor.com/ nakedpastor

    Wow.

  • Humanism is balance

    Okay okay, look I apologize my attitude was very uncalled for. I find myself very concerned about the well being of innocent men and boys at the hands of what I truly believe to be a feminist conspiracy against the well being of men for female domination. I truly believe they have taken over our schools, society at large, our media, etc. I don’t think men are treated fairly, I don’t believe in a patriarchy, I think women in the West are nearly deified. I don’t believe for a second that rape is that bad nor does the song blurred lines in any way make men think it is okay to go after women but I also notice that a lot of women are very coy and the lines are often not defined because THEY don’t actually make the effort to make the clear and distinct lines between bases in courtship.

    I just fear very deeply for the safety of men in today’s justice system as it looks like it is getting far too easy to exploit or even falsely accuse them of terrible things. I don’t believe feminism addresses it, nor does a lot of the traditionalist ideals we have which also are actually gynocentric because they are chivalrous and protective of women as inferior, weaker damsels. I think the way GOD would want it done is that we would treat others as we would have them treat us, that means women would also have to be just as sacrificial toward men. I admit in many areas a lot of women can be, even those who identify as radfems if they truly become close as I have noticed recently with a Lesbian couple I closely befriended.

    I am just concerned that this is an overreaction toward Miley Cyrus for doing what others do anyway in the celebrity sphere. I am truly sorry for being a complete jerk to you, it was uncalled for and absolutely against my sense of morality which follows the Golden rule.

  • Alice

    There are plenty of male stars who have gone from cute child star to provocative adult, but no one cares because female sexuality = bad, male sexuality = good.

  • onorobo

    Where did you read that statistic?
    Because the US population is 313.9 million people.
    Women make up 50.8% of that, so that’s around 159.5 million women.
    1 in 6 women have been raped, so that’s about 26.6 million female rape victims.

    The US prison population is “only” 2.2 million last census. (That number includes female inmates) So…. assuming every single person who spends even one day in prison is raped, I think you might be off by about a factor of 12.

    Male sexuality is DEFINITELY NOT seen as unimportant, so much as unexceptional. This is a subtle, but important distinction in word choice.
    (For the record, objectification of women is not exploring, emphasizing, or placing importance on female sexuality.)

    I really would rather people DID care about sexism, rape culture, and fact checking, though. Casual indifference towards suffering and injustice stopped being fashionable in early high school.

  • Thursday1

    http://nplusonemag.com/raise-the-crime-rate

    Oh, and when I said unimportant, I meant unimportant.

  • onorobo

    That’s funny because last I checked, just about every sex scene in hollywood, slutty axe body spray commercials, video games, and main stream comics caters exclusively to males.

    Like I said, because a woman is the OBJECT of a man’s desire does not mean that her sexuality is important or necessary to the sex scene.

    As for your article, that’s a very interesting number (which they didn’t provide), I’ll have to look into how they calculated it for 2008. I understand you often have to estimate prison rape since so much of it goes unreported, it makes me ask if they took police reports to count rape against the general population and estimates to count rape against inmates.

    But regardless, I have a 2010 Department of Justice pdf that says the opposite, that rape, by far, targets women. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv10.pdf

    So perhaps 2008 is a strange fluke of a year, that’s terrible. But rape, by far, throughout history and across the globe, predominantly effects women.

  • Sarah Warren

    Saying “you’re wrong” and “you’re lying” lots of times doesn’t make you right or make your interlocutor a liar – even when you say it in ALL CAPS. All it means is hat you can type and know where caps lock is located.

    Neither does being a survivor of sexual abuse – here’s a clue, you’re not the only one.

    Rape culture is when a woman can get gang raped to the point that it damages her internal organs, and a respected spiritual leader in her country can say in all seriousness that it was her fault.

    Rape culture is when a judge can claim that a 14 year old girl and her 49 year old teacher had equal responsibility and control in a ‘relationship’, and when people claim, that it was ‘consensual’ (hint: we have laws about the age of consent for a reason. A child cannot give informed consent – and that’s the same whether that child is male or female).

    Rape culture is when a girl gets raped, and the reaction to the news is people lamenting that it might blight the lives of her rapists.

    Rape culture is when a comedienne comments on rape jokes and the response is people making rape threats, telling her she’s too ugly to get raped, saying that she actually wants to get raped, and telling her that rape is a compliment.

    Rape culture is when a woman who campaigned for women to be included on banknotes got threatened with rape for her troubles, and when she tried to do something about it, got accused of using the (violent, graphic, horrific) threats against her as a way to get famous.

    Rape culture is when a judge can call a 13 year old predatory in a ‘relationship’ with a 41 year old, and it takes an uproar for it to be looked into.

    All but one of these examples are from Western, developed countries – and these are literally just the examples that I know of off the top of my head. It’s a tiny, tiny sampling.

    And by the way, likening being in a vulnerable position and getting raped to leaving one’s house unlocked, and suggesting that it is the victim’s fault someone stole something: THAT IS VICTIM BLAMING TOO. Yes, it’s victim blaming when you do it to someone who was robbed, as well as raped. A person is not “asking for” their home to be burgled if they forget to lock the door. A woman is not “asking to” be raped because she’s wearing a short skirt.

    Is it sensible to lock one’s house? Yes. Does that make getting burgled the victim’s fault? No.

    A more accurate analogy would be owning a nice watch or a high class stereo, since it’s difficult if not impossible for a woman to “lock” her sexual organs. If you get mugged for your nice watch, or your home is broken into because you have a swish TV or an expensive stereo, IT IS STILL NOT YOUR FAULT that someone stole those items. Living in a rough area does not mean that it would be OK to mug or kill you. There’s a difference between “behaviour X will make you more vulnerable to danger Y” and “behaviour X makes person Z’s behaviour in perpetrating danger Y excusable.”

    Moreover, a woman cannot leave her vulnerability to rape at home, or decide not to buy a vagina so she doesn’t have to worry about getting raped.

    Allowing a stranger to buy a drink isn’t very wise. It doesn’t make it OK for said stranger to drug and rape the victim. Making a foolish decision doesn’t mean that the person who takes advantage of the foolish decision less culpable for the crime, or make the victim responsible.

    There’s also the fact that most rape victims know their attacker. They are not getting raped because they talked to a stranger or didn’t pay attention to what they were drinking. They are getting raped because a man wants to exert his power over a woman. IT IS NOT THE VICTIM’S FAULT THEY GOT RAPED. IT IS NEVER THE VICTIM’S FAULT. Full stop. It’s also not the victim’s fault if the victim happens to be male.

    That you can say such a thing and then claim to be a respectful human being staggers and disgusts me. I’m not usually one to resort to foul language, but fuck you, you sick bastard.

    Again, I will say it. Your main complaint is that you feel you have to act cocky around women. Holy crap. Grow up.

  • Sarah Warren

    Yup – I really dislike cocky guys. I will get away from a PUA as quick as humanly possible. A sincere guy who’s actually interested in a conversation, now he will interest me.

  • Sarah Warren

    How about the uproar about the Zesty Italian Dressing ads? Women have been objectified and sexualised to sell products practically for as long as advertising has existed. Kraft put a man in a similar position, and the Internet collectively flips its lid. *sigh*

  • Sarah Warren

    “Sure, I’m just one person, and few if any will hear my voice. But if I *don’t* speak, *nobody* will hear my voice.”

    *applause* that is a perfect, succinct summation of why being engaged is important. I want to post that everyone I can think of.

  • Sarah Warren

    “I don’t believe for a second that rape is that bad”

    I very sincerely hope that you expressed yourself badly there, because if what you said is what you meant to say and on the same article you can claim to be respectful of women, then I am just pure and outright disgusted and don’t want to live on this planet any more. Good grief.

  • Kevin Osborne

    She has great legs.

  • Humanism is balance

    I am sorry you feel that way but the feminists at work have compared rape to being as bad as being murdered which I staunchly disagree with. I know it is a traumatic experience, I was molested by two adult women separately over the course of my childhood and I honestly cannot say I would have rather been murdered. Sure, did they take your power to control the reproductive exchange away for about 20 minutes max? Yeah probably, but was that as bad as having a $25k car stolen and having your life destroyed because you lost your independence? Not in my opinion. Trivial? No, I don’t think rape is trivial but I think it is blown way out of proportion by women. Generally speaking this is done by the same gender they have a preference for, sometimes not but it is rarely mentioned how often men are forced against their preference in prison by other men. It is rarely mentioned how many false allegations of rape have led men into those prisons to be raped by other men. To the victors go history so to argue that it doesn’t happen often is going to be hard to prove. I just know the character of human beings in general and logic dictates we have a world of drama queens ready to have the spotlight on them for their victimhood. We have a world full of opportunists who will rob a man through lawsuits because the system is rigged to make that ~Oh So Easy!~

    Am I trivializing it? No, is it “THAT” bad? Is it to the degree we make a stink about it in society? No, it isn’t the worst thing that can happen to a human being by far.

  • Sarah Warren

    When you trivialise rape, you frankly disqualify yourself from a discussion about it. I’m not going to engage with someone who expresses such a disgusting sentiment.

  • Humanism is balance

    Okay first off please do us both a favor and get off the whole “Grow up” thing. Women and their pompous ideas about being so much more mature really does grind my gears, we all mature differently in different ways and I can easily think of many ways women almost universally remain immature compared to men while also I can think the same of men to women. Another thing is, way to be hypocritical about the caps lock.

    Now that we had that lovely exchange I would like to point out the problems with rape culture as briefly as I can (which will still be wordy).

    First off, the reference to an unlocked home is a fact, you are using emotion on a fact to try to nullify it. I don’t LIKE that a girl who doesn’t do anything to take responsibility for herself in a situation becomes a trigger for a sociopath but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a fact that she is.

    I mean, what don’t you get? Why aren’t you understanding that if you wave cash around the wrong neighborhoods you might get robbed? In the ideal world we wouldn’t have to call out the person waving the cash fro being in the wrong place and acting a fool but they did indeed act a fool no matter how delusional you are in trying to make believe a fantasy that they didn’t for some so called “rights”.

    There won’t be a free pass to “act a fool”, people will always have the right to THINK that person was a dumb ass for it and rightfully so.

    I hate rape, I know it traumatizes people, I don’t believe it is okay to blame someone for their traumatic experience but you can always blame someone for irresponsible behavior. A good example is someone who gets HIV for not having protected sex, would you “Victim blame” them for doing something risky when they knew full well that it was risky? Yes. Would you shame them for being a victim of the disease? No. Why doesn’t logic work on you? It is so damn simple, you blame people for stupidity so that we have a smarter world, a safer world. We don’t give free passes to women just because they are women, that isn’t a right! That is dominance, that is tyranny when one is over the other and we men are supposed to universally bow like subhumans. You don’t extend that respect to us, of course you blame us for everything.

    When I joined the MRM it was over rape culture, because I saw a guy who didn’t have a court case yet being strung up by my entire metropolitan area based on nothing but an accusation which sounded very questionable. Journalists even had the nerve to chime in calling an entire suburb’s defense of this young man an “all time low” in “Victim blame”. However until it is PROVEN there is nothing more than an ALLEGED VICTIM <—- (there is a fucking enormous difference), that means it is a claim and nothing more.

    Vaginas do not give you a free pass to have your word elevated over every man's. This is why I fight for men's rights, not because I don't care that women are many times victims of terrible treatment, but because there are billions of dollars and billions of people protecting women while men are ignored. You complain about Miley Cyrus grinding some guy singing about coyness and helping a girl overcome it? Come back to me when you have issues like ours where our lives are destroyed over the mere accusations from all these Queen Bees thanks to our matriarchal chivalric ideals where men are meant to be meat shields for the princesses of the world.

  • Humanism is balance

    You are engaging, quit fooling yourself. You also missed the multiple times I said I was not trivializing it and spelled it out so a drooling idiot could understand. I think you understand quite well and you just have too much ego and too much to win by admitting I am absolutely right in what I am saying. Rape isn’t the worst thing to happen to human beings, it isn’t okay and in fact it is terrible but it isn’t the worst thing that can happen by far. That doesn’t trivialize rape it simply puts it into a perspective that is a lot more realistic than comparing it to murder. Forcing someone to give up their power is a psychological torture but it isn’t THE WORST thing that could happen. It may take some counseling but generally people will recover and some become stronger.

    Are you really wanting to try to shame me? I became immune to that silly and cliche feminist debate tactic quite a long time ago.

  • Sarah Warren

    As I said in a previous comment, I have no desire whatsoever to engage with you any more, so I’m afraid I am not expending the energy to find the exact comment for which I just got an email response from you. My health is bad and I have limited energy, and I refuse to waste it. If I could figure out how to block responses for you so I didn’t have to even see your revolting comments, I would.

    I do, however, want to say that I did not tell you to grow up because you have a Y chromosome – I know many exceptionally intelligent and mature men. Heck, I know plenty of immature women! Neither gender has the monopoly on maturity or immaturity.

    I don’t care what set of genitalia you own, or whether you shave your face or your armpits. I have zero problem with men and I don’t judge people on their gender. It actually says more about you than me that you assume I told you to grow up because you’re a man and I’m a woman and I somehow magically think all men are less mature or some nonsense.

    I told you to grow up because you need to grow up. It’s not a comment on your gender. It’s a comment on your maturity, or rather your lack thereof. Full stop. Period. End of story.

  • Sarah Warren

    Oh, and by the way, chuck, I use ALL CAPS when I’m trying to get a point through to a thick headed poster. I don’t magically think that knowing where caps lock is makes me right.

    It is bizarre that you whine about me judging you as immature and assume I’m doing it because I think all men are immature, while you’re more than happy to place all woman into a block of “all women do this.” I have to laugh at the irony, or I’d cry.

  • rosie1843

    You hypocrite! You’re using charges of racism to express your own sexism.

  • rosie1843

    It’s amazing. The article criticizes the public’s reaction to both Miley Cyrus and Robin Thicke. And instead of facing it, many of you are still engaging in this sexist hypocrisy. Some of you idiots can’t even get past Cyrus’ association with Disney and behave as if she is expected to maintain this “goody-goody” persona. And others are using Cyrus’ on-stage body language to convict her of racism. Where were you during the heydays of Madonna? Gwen Stefani? Or Lady Gaga? You’re using racism to express your own sexism.

    Even after reading the above article, many readers still seem incapable of overcoming their double standards. Amazing.

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