Sunday Shoutout: Framing Conversations

First let me say I dropped the ball last week and completely forgot about posting a question or the answers of the week before. I’ll try to do better 😉

In the wake of examining Vaughn Ohlman’s ideas about betrothal, Lana Hope’s piece Duggars Are Not Crazy and other writing by those in and out of Christian Patriarchy I’m starting to consider the best ways we can engage in conversation with those we don’t agree with.

They don’t respond to snark, mocking, put downs or other more negative conversational tactics many (myself included) have used towards them. Should we try to be civil, seeking to understand them, instead of hurling slings and arrows?

So my question is actually in four parts.

  1. Should we try to engage Quiverfull and Patriarchal people in conversation in the first place?
  2. If we do what does that need to look like?
  3. What are the best ways to proceed here?
  4. What would you like to see us do in regards to the conversations here?

Comments open below

NLQ Recommended Reading …

Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment‘ by Janet Heimlich

Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce

 

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Vaughn Ohlman

    If you wish to put forward a doctrine, then at least put forward one that you believe!
    Or, if you wish, do your research and find out how the various historical commentators have interpreted the example of Jepthah. But it is silly to put forward a theory you don’t even believe yourself, and then accuse me of believing it.
    The story of Isaac and Rebecca is one story among many, that is reinforced by those other stories, reinforced by law, reinforced by teaching, etc. You misinterpret the story of Jepthah, insist your interpretation is true altho you don’t believe it yourself, and then try to pretend it compares?
    Sorry, no dice.

  • Vaughn Ohlman

    >>But, consider this: you don’t have any more “biblical” standing for your betrothal standard than Nightshade has in facetiously bringing up human sacrifice.

    I’m glad you recognize that she was being at least facetious; but your underlying premise is wrong. I have literally hundreds of verses and examples and such that support my ‘betrothal standard’. Far from being built around that example, that example is, well, an example :)

  • Vaughn Ohlman

    >>God apparently approved,, although not directly command, Jephthah offering his daughter as a burnt offering, but does that mean he would approve it if we followed that example?

    Your interpretation is wrong, and built upon your own desire. You know that human sacrifice is specifically forbidden. You may know, altho probably not, that the law has specific provisions for how to redeem a human that should otherwise be sacrificed. You may know the issues with the Hebrew word concerned You may also that she bewailed her ‘virginity’ not her ‘life’. I am sure you know that I don’t teach human sacrifice.

    If God truly approved of what Jepthah did, to the point of praising it, then it does, actually follow that, given similar circumstances He would approve of similar actions.

  • Madame

    So you are saying that Jepthah didn’t actually sacrifice his daughter? If I understand correctly, you read sacrifice to mean dedication, which in her case would have meant that she would never marry and would serve God instead. Am I right?

    And if God never approved of human sacrifice, why did he tell Abraham to sacrifice Isaac?

  • Vaughn Ohlman

    I am saying that Jepthah did not kill and burn his daughter as an offering to the Lord. He did ‘sacrifice’ her in the broader sense, as you point out.
    The logic is easy:
    God does not approve of human sacrifice
    God did approve of Jepthah’s actions
    Ergo he did not sacrifice his daughter.

    And the story of Abraham makes that clear. Remember that Abraham was pre-law. The law against human sacrifice had not been written. Abraham’s neighbors would have approved of human sacrifice.
    But God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. As Abraham said he would, God provided a lamb.

  • Nightshade

    So much for the inerrancy of scripture…after all, God could have made sure the translators got it right…couldn’t he?