An interesting conversation came out of my post on belief yesterday and I’d like to briefly touch on it.
It’s nothing new that many Witches adamantly deny that the Gods are to be worshipped but rather they are equals, allies, friends or even tools. I don’t agree with this but I do get a bit peeved when it’s suggested “real” Witches don’t worship the Gods or that it’s a “Wiccan thing,” with the implication that anything “Wiccan” is somehow less.
Here’s what bothers me about this: the lore of modern Witchcraft is full of descriptions of and exhortations to worship the Gods. Saying that the oral lore contradicts this isn’t helpful, and neither is claiming the lore isn’t scripture. Either the written lore is obsolete and not worth passing on, or it’s lie and completely false advertising.
Or, and apparently this is the most extreme option, when the lore says worship it actually means worship. Like when traditional Witchcraft is referred to as The Old Religion, it might actually mean traditional Witchcraft is a religion.
If Witches aren’t meant to worship the Gods, then there’s a lot of false advertising out there.
In Aradia Witches are instructed “Ye shall assemble in some desert place, Or in a forest all together join To adore the potent spirit of your queen, My mother, great Diana.” In this context, adore can be interpreted as worship. Indeed, Doreen Valiente must have thought so, for in her reworking of this passage of Aradia into The Charge of the Goddess she added “Let Her worship be within the heart that rejoiceth; for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals.”
In the 162 laws set forth by Lady Sheba, an exhortation to worship the Gods claims the third spot:
3. The Wicca should give due worship to the Gods and obey Their will, which They ardane, for it was made for the good of the Wicca, as the worship of the Wicca is good for the Gods. For the Gods love the brethren of the Wicca.
In the New Book of the Law by Lady Galadriel of the Unicorn tradition, worship of the Gods also claims the third spot:
3. The Goddess is the Great Mother, and the God is the Great Father, and we are Their children; and we shall worship Them, for They are the rulers of the Universe, and all that is therein. Therefore, O Children of the Gods, try Them not, nor attempt to test Them, for They shall show you that he Ways of the Craft are not to be belittled or mocked.
For Moss Bliss, aka J. Random Folksinger, worship claims the first spot:
1. The Witches should worship the Gods as is their due, and obey their will. For the worship of the Gods is good for the Witches even as the worship of the Witches is good for the Gods: For the Gods love all their Witches.
And Gardner also mentions worship in the Ardanes:
3. The Wicca should give due worship to the Gods and obey Their will, which they ardane, for it was made for the good of Wicce, as the worship of the Wicce is good for the gods. For the Gods love the brethren of the Wicce, and it is from this love that cometh the Power.
Roy Bowers, aka Robert Cochrane, spoke of devotions and prayers in working with the Gods.
So from the textual evidence, it would seem that worship is implied in Strega and mandatory in Wicca, although many Gardnerian-descended Wiccans might disagree with this.
So either the leading proponents of modern Witchcraft are lying about it’s nature to the unintiated, which seems counter-productive, or modern traditional Witches are reinterpreting traditional lore to suit them, which is often their complaint about popular Wicca.
As an initiate of a trad Craft tradition that has quite a bit of non-Gardnerian-descended Craft in it’s upline, I’ve copied down more exhortations to worship the God’s than my cramped hands ever cared to, so I tend to view the word worship to actually mean worship. Not in an abasing, groveling sort of way, but as an acknowledgement of their position in theurgic Witchcraft.
What do you think?
I think a lot of the aversion to the term worship that people have stems from our strong an even stronger aversion to humbling ourselves. Especially since witchcraft, for many, is seen as a path to personal empowerment, people are generally hesitant to include any amount of lost pride. Also, it’s probably a product of our highly individualistic culture that trains us to put ourselves on a far higher pedestal than anyone else, including divinity.
I think a lot of the aversion to the term worship that people have stems from our strong an even stronger aversion to humbling ourselves. Especially since witchcraft, for many, is seen as a path to personal empowerment, people are generally hesitant to include any amount of lost pride. Also, it’s probably a product of our highly individualistic culture that trains us to put ourselves on a far higher pedestal than anyone else, including divinity.
I think this is a very touchy subject to me as I do love, adore, and worship the gods I serve and I do believe I exist to serve them and not the other way around. Even when practicing ceremonial magic, I do this with the knowledge that all of this wisdom is available to me through the will of the gods and the hands of, brilliant, wo/men.
I’m going to say something controversial ahead of time but I tend to think that many witches, especially those who are fresh off the banana boat of monotheism, and not even well-versed, monotheism at that. The notion that “worship” can be equated with “groveling” or “sniveling” is highly insulting and smacks of one the main characteristics I’ve witnessed in the Neo-Pagan community, a supreme sense of entitlement and narcissism.
“Worship” is a dirty word but “use” is perfectly fine. While magical practice is a method of spiritual evolution, and physical manifestation, I’m a little amazed at the “Gimme gimme me me” attitude of some practitioners when it comes to the deities they, claim, to have ‘relationships’ with.
One of the most common phrases used in descriptions of Christian saints is that they are exalted in worship. Perhaps that approach to what worship means might be appropriate here, for a situation when a deity is honoured, but also called upon for magic.
I don’t know about this so much. I was christened and attended Mass with my father until the age of 14 or so and I never saw anyone worshiping Saints. Asking saints to intercede on one’s half because they were closer to G-d? Absolutely. Worship? No. Worship is reserved for the Trinity, and there were some who argued with that as well.
As far as “calling upon” a deity for magic? As I’ve said. Not my bag. I attempt to leave the gods and goddesses names out of my work because they are not there for me to command or commander and I’d imagine the laughter I would get the moment I thought I was calling on anyone. Hell, the first time I set about doing a ritual of offering to Hermes I hacked a loogie onto the altar mid hymn and fell over my own feet during my attempt at a “procession.”
In my mind the whole thing went terribly, but I’m still here and I hope he’s pleased as punch.
You misunderstand – I mean that when the saints worshipped God fully, they were themselves exalted. The concept is that while humbling themselves, they draw nearer to God and so to call them ‘grovelling and snivelling’ is, as you rightly pointed out, inaccurate.
The idea I was vaguely bumbling towards is that being humble and declaring oneself small and weak is not necessarily an unworthy thing. I attended once, as an observer, a pagan ceremony in which the leader explained to me their concept of recognising oneself as a tiny part of the magical fabric of the world and using this understanding to better comprehend the whole.
I think this is a very touchy subject to me as I do love, adore, and worship the gods I serve and I do believe I exist to serve them and not the other way around. Even when practicing ceremonial magic, I do this with the knowledge that all of this wisdom is available to me through the will of the gods and the hands of, brilliant, wo/men.
I’m going to say something controversial ahead of time but I tend to think that many witches, especially those who are fresh off the banana boat of monotheism, and not even well-versed, monotheism at that. The notion that “worship” can be equated with “groveling” or “sniveling” is highly insulting and smacks of one the main characteristics I’ve witnessed in the Neo-Pagan community, a supreme sense of entitlement and narcissism.
“Worship” is a dirty word but “use” is perfectly fine. While magical practice is a method of spiritual evolution, and physical manifestation, I’m a little amazed at the “Gimme gimme me me” attitude of some practitioners when it comes to the deities they, claim, to have ‘relationships’ with.
One of the most common phrases used in descriptions of Christian saints is that they are exalted in worship. Perhaps that approach to what worship means might be appropriate here, for a situation when a deity is honoured, but also called upon for magic.
I don’t know about this so much. I was christened and attended Mass with my father until the age of 14 or so and I never saw anyone worshiping Saints. Asking saints to intercede on one’s half because they were closer to G-d? Absolutely. Worship? No. Worship is reserved for the Trinity, and there were some who argued with that as well.
As far as “calling upon” a deity for magic? As I’ve said. Not my bag. I attempt to leave the gods and goddesses names out of my work because they are not there for me to command or commander and I’d imagine the laughter I would get the moment I thought I was calling on anyone. Hell, the first time I set about doing a ritual of offering to Hermes I hacked a loogie onto the altar mid hymn and fell over my own feet during my attempt at a “procession.”
In my mind the whole thing went terribly, but I’m still here and I hope he’s pleased as punch.
You misunderstand – I mean that when the saints worshipped God fully, they were themselves exalted. The concept is that while humbling themselves, they draw nearer to God and so to call them ‘grovelling and snivelling’ is, as you rightly pointed out, inaccurate.
The idea I was vaguely bumbling towards is that being humble and declaring oneself small and weak is not necessarily an unworthy thing. I attended once, as an observer, a pagan ceremony in which the leader explained to me their concept of recognising oneself as a tiny part of the magical fabric of the world and using this understanding to better comprehend the whole.
I spent about 12 years being a very devout “BritTrad” Wiccan. During that time, it was slapped home to me any number of times that we most definitely WERE worshipping the gods, that they were real, and to not worship them was to make everyone else take a step back (because they didn’t want to be in the blast zone when your snowball hit you). I moved on to something more generic, which led to my becoming a practitioner of Hellenic polytheism, and even moreso, I know the gods are real, and that they are definitely More Than Me.
Wesley, I don’t see giving Them due worship as being humbling. Their very *presence* is humbling, though (and I suppose I’ll put my blast proof big girl panties on and say if you’ve never experienced the AWE in AWEsome then you ain’t doin’ it right). I don’t grovel – the gods I worship aren’t into that. But I sure as heck cover my hair at certain times out of respect, and I say my prayers as they’ve led me to learn to do.
In no way does this take away from my self-empowerment. Choosing freely to worship a god or gods, regardless of the outer view of that worship, is inherently empowering (at least in my opinion). There was a day when I went to see a special exhibit at the Met in NYC, where there were many ancient Greek statues. I covered my hair, and I wore modest clothing. Why? Because I was humbled by being in this … mere shadow of Their being.
No one made me… not even Them, really. And that, imo, is empowerment.
I didn’t mean to imply that I endorse groveling or that worship is mutually exclusive with personal empowerment. I was just saying that many who disagree with the term “worship” view it in that light. Humility in that context is simply a recognition of our limitations in comparison with deity and a respectful observance of their AWEsome qualities.
I spent about 12 years being a very devout “BritTrad” Wiccan. During that time, it was slapped home to me any number of times that we most definitely WERE worshipping the gods, that they were real, and to not worship them was to make everyone else take a step back (because they didn’t want to be in the blast zone when your snowball hit you). I moved on to something more generic, which led to my becoming a practitioner of Hellenic polytheism, and even moreso, I know the gods are real, and that they are definitely More Than Me.
Wesley, I don’t see giving Them due worship as being humbling. Their very *presence* is humbling, though (and I suppose I’ll put my blast proof big girl panties on and say if you’ve never experienced the AWE in AWEsome then you ain’t doin’ it right). I don’t grovel – the gods I worship aren’t into that. But I sure as heck cover my hair at certain times out of respect, and I say my prayers as they’ve led me to learn to do.
In no way does this take away from my self-empowerment. Choosing freely to worship a god or gods, regardless of the outer view of that worship, is inherently empowering (at least in my opinion). There was a day when I went to see a special exhibit at the Met in NYC, where there were many ancient Greek statues. I covered my hair, and I wore modest clothing. Why? Because I was humbled by being in this … mere shadow of Their being.
No one made me… not even Them, really. And that, imo, is empowerment.
I didn’t mean to imply that I endorse groveling or that worship is mutually exclusive with personal empowerment. I was just saying that many who disagree with the term “worship” view it in that light. Humility in that context is simply a recognition of our limitations in comparison with deity and a respectful observance of their AWEsome qualities.
All those who use magic without Divine guidance are a menace to themselves and to everyone. They should be shunned and subjected to every possible form of criticism.
Does that apply to people whose religion doesn’t include divinities? Say, the Australian aboriginal traditions, since they don’t have gods in those traditions.
In my opinion, religious absolutism is hubris–both overweening pride and abusive violence. Might I suggest re-reading the Delphic maxims?
All those who use magic without Divine guidance are a menace to themselves and to everyone. They should be shunned and subjected to every possible form of criticism.
Does that apply to people whose religion doesn’t include divinities? Say, the Australian aboriginal traditions, since they don’t have gods in those traditions.
In my opinion, religious absolutism is hubris–both overweening pride and abusive violence. Might I suggest re-reading the Delphic maxims?
A couple of thoughts come to mind. One is that we should be careful of quoting old-line trad elders as prophets or sources of orthodoxy. Most modern pagans are not of their lines.
We also need to remember that these early folks had absolutely no frame of reference outside of Christianity. When you look at the ritual framework and the language of early Wicca and of meso-pagan occult groups like OTO and others, they are chock full of Judeo-Christian context – invocations of angels, ritualized signing of the cross, (and stylized versions of the cross), rituals that ape Catholic Mass etc. Everything they did was a re-imagining (and rebellion against) the Abrahamic religions they knew. The language of “worship” would certainly be counted in that. I don’t fault them for that. It’s all they had to work with at the time. I think their re-connection with the old ways was authentic, but the details were filled in with rather “imaginitive” sources like Aradia and with the only foundation they knew: Edwardian Christianity.
So I see their ordains as starting places, not authoritative pronouncements for all time and all pagans, or even all trad craft followers. I think there’s a whole lot of ground between “worship” of gods in the Christians sense and treating them nonchalantly as servitors or drinking buddies. I hesitate to use the word “worship” because of its Christian baggage. I think there’s a fundamentally different relationship of deity and human in what we do versus them. That doesn’t mean we don’t owe our gods reverence or deep respect. For me at least, I think a better concept is “honoring” deity.
Worshiping Gods is not just a Christian thing. The Gods were worshiped by peoples and religions throughout time. In Egypt, where ceremonial magic was a High Art, the Gods were worshiped.
True the act of worship is not uniquely Christian, but I think their ideas of what worship should be is rooted in a very different sort of relationship between human and divine than what most modern pagans have. You’re also quite right that Christians did not invent worship and never had a monopoly on it. You also touch on another important point. Concepts of worship don’t only vary by religion but over time.
This is a bit of speculation on my part, but I suspect that both the gods and people had some very different expectations of the human-divine relationship in ancient Egypt vs today. Not that we don’t struggle with the same sorts of deep mysteries of life, but we’re a different animal in many ways than our ancestors. For better and for worse, we don’t live as close to the Earth as they did. Among the implications of that is that we don’t approach the gods today with the same focus on propitiation to try to ensure our next handful of grain or successful hunt. I think perhaps the gods for their part also see that we are at a different stage of development and need different sorts of guidance, challenges and wisdom from them.
Our species might be seen in the context of individual human development. A few thousand years ago we were in the childhood of our race, and probably needed a bit more unquestioned obedience to the gods and a bit more basic sustenance from them. Now we have power not so unlike that of the gods. We have the means to incinerate the entire surface of our world, or travel to new ones. We are learning to read and re-write the chemical language of life itself.
We haven’t outgrown the need for the gods or worship. We need them more than ever, but the relationship is different. Where the interaction once gave us basic discipline and rote learning, we now need mentoring. If we are to survive our own power now, we need their help to inspire us to wisdom and a deep re-envisioning of who we are. In my own experience with the gods, the relationship now feels a bit more like that of a respected professor and their grad student. We both know who the senior partner is and who is owed what sort of deference, but we engage each other at a higher and deeper level. They don’t have to raise their voice so often to keep order in the classroom, as it were, and we don’t need to approach them with the same eyes to the ground “sir” and “ma’am” posture we did as kids. To do so seems a little obsequious and servile. They want our honor, but they want us to honor ourselves and to grow up in every sense of the word.
Can this sort of relationship with the gods be defined as “worship”? I see no reason why not. I still think the term carries a lot of baggage, but its as good a term as any in a language that doesn’t allow for much nuance in this area.
A couple of thoughts come to mind. One is that we should be careful of quoting old-line trad elders as prophets or sources of orthodoxy. Most modern pagans are not of their lines.
We also need to remember that these early folks had absolutely no frame of reference outside of Christianity. When you look at the ritual framework and the language of early Wicca and of meso-pagan occult groups like OTO and others, they are chock full of Judeo-Christian context – invocations of angels, ritualized signing of the cross, (and stylized versions of the cross), rituals that ape Catholic Mass etc. Everything they did was a re-imagining (and rebellion against) the Abrahamic religions they knew. The language of “worship” would certainly be counted in that. I don’t fault them for that. It’s all they had to work with at the time. I think their re-connection with the old ways was authentic, but the details were filled in with rather “imaginitive” sources like Aradia and with the only foundation they knew: Edwardian Christianity.
So I see their ordains as starting places, not authoritative pronouncements for all time and all pagans, or even all trad craft followers. I think there’s a whole lot of ground between “worship” of gods in the Christians sense and treating them nonchalantly as servitors or drinking buddies. I hesitate to use the word “worship” because of its Christian baggage. I think there’s a fundamentally different relationship of deity and human in what we do versus them. That doesn’t mean we don’t owe our gods reverence or deep respect. For me at least, I think a better concept is “honoring” deity.
Worshiping Gods is not just a Christian thing. The Gods were worshiped by peoples and religions throughout time. In Egypt, where ceremonial magic was a High Art, the Gods were worshiped.
True the act of worship is not uniquely Christian, but I think their ideas of what worship should be is rooted in a very different sort of relationship between human and divine than what most modern pagans have. You’re also quite right that Christians did not invent worship and never had a monopoly on it. You also touch on another important point. Concepts of worship don’t only vary by religion but over time.
This is a bit of speculation on my part, but I suspect that both the gods and people had some very different expectations of the human-divine relationship in ancient Egypt vs today. Not that we don’t struggle with the same sorts of deep mysteries of life, but we’re a different animal in many ways than our ancestors. For better and for worse, we don’t live as close to the Earth as they did. Among the implications of that is that we don’t approach the gods today with the same focus on propitiation to try to ensure our next handful of grain or successful hunt. I think perhaps the gods for their part also see that we are at a different stage of development and need different sorts of guidance, challenges and wisdom from them.
Our species might be seen in the context of individual human development. A few thousand years ago we were in the childhood of our race, and probably needed a bit more unquestioned obedience to the gods and a bit more basic sustenance from them. Now we have power not so unlike that of the gods. We have the means to incinerate the entire surface of our world, or travel to new ones. We are learning to read and re-write the chemical language of life itself.
We haven’t outgrown the need for the gods or worship. We need them more than ever, but the relationship is different. Where the interaction once gave us basic discipline and rote learning, we now need mentoring. If we are to survive our own power now, we need their help to inspire us to wisdom and a deep re-envisioning of who we are. In my own experience with the gods, the relationship now feels a bit more like that of a respected professor and their grad student. We both know who the senior partner is and who is owed what sort of deference, but we engage each other at a higher and deeper level. They don’t have to raise their voice so often to keep order in the classroom, as it were, and we don’t need to approach them with the same eyes to the ground “sir” and “ma’am” posture we did as kids. To do so seems a little obsequious and servile. They want our honor, but they want us to honor ourselves and to grow up in every sense of the word.
Can this sort of relationship with the gods be defined as “worship”? I see no reason why not. I still think the term carries a lot of baggage, but its as good a term as any in a language that doesn’t allow for much nuance in this area.
Very intelligent conversations on this channel. Thank you. I’d like to suggest that progress in understanding this sort of issue can be made by reading some of the foundational theology that’s been around for a while. That is, the thinking that looks at the nature of divinity that underlies all specific religions. That is, it’s sort of the quantum mechanics of theology. Some of Alan Watts is a good starting point. Definitely helps one get past the “Sunday school version for children” that every faith community has, and on to the fully featured version that adults need. Not that all adults ever find it, of course.
There is no “nature of divinity that underlies all specific religions.” That’s an illusion.
A couple of books to read that clearly dismantle the “nature of divinity that underlies all specific religions” worldview:
* God Is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions That Run the World–and Why Their Differences Matter by Stephen Prothero.
* A World Full of Gods: An Inquiry into Polytheism by John Michael Greer.
If you enjoyed Watts, I think you will also enjoy this contrasting perspective. (And Greer is writing as a practicing modern pagan Druid.)
Very intelligent conversations on this channel. Thank you. I’d like to suggest that progress in understanding this sort of issue can be made by reading some of the foundational theology that’s been around for a while. That is, the thinking that looks at the nature of divinity that underlies all specific religions. That is, it’s sort of the quantum mechanics of theology. Some of Alan Watts is a good starting point. Definitely helps one get past the “Sunday school version for children” that every faith community has, and on to the fully featured version that adults need. Not that all adults ever find it, of course.
There is no “nature of divinity that underlies all specific religions.” That’s an illusion.
A couple of books to read that clearly dismantle the “nature of divinity that underlies all specific religions” worldview:
* God Is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions That Run the World–and Why Their Differences Matter by Stephen Prothero.
* A World Full of Gods: An Inquiry into Polytheism by John Michael Greer.
If you enjoyed Watts, I think you will also enjoy this contrasting perspective. (And Greer is writing as a practicing modern pagan Druid.)
The Charge of the Goddess she added “Let Her worship be within the heart that rejoiceth; for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals.”
… that’s all we look at in our Coven in the way of “worship” … where are all these printed exhortations? Who are these “real witches” who have to spend all this time telling Wiccans that we aren’t “real witches”, anyway? I also ” … get a bit peeved when it’s suggested “real” Witches don’t worship the
Gods or that it’s a “Wiccan thing,” with the implication that anything
“Wiccan” is somehow less.”
I fail to understand how Pagans can continue this kind of belittling fo each other. In modern Wicca and Paganism there as never been a “one right, true and only way.” That’s a Good Thing, all and all.
Star, you quoted: “Let Her worship be within the heart that rejoiceth; for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals.”
… that’s all we look at in our Coven in the way of “worship” …
Where are all these printed exhortations? (Why would a Pagan “exhort” anyone to do anything, anyway?) Who are these “real witches” who have to spend all this time telling Wiccans that we aren’t “real witches”, anyway? I also ” … get a bit peeved when it’s suggested “real” Witches don’t worship the Gods or that it’s a “Wiccan thing,” with the implication that anything “Wiccan” is somehow less.” In fact, I have serious issues with the entire philosophy of anyone even saying something like that. To wit: After posting something here, I received a long diatribe in my Facebook “message box” all about how I was a ‘”negative person”… unfair, folks, I’ve been doing this a long time and I have my “bonafides”, too, both in the academic world and as a Wiccan. I – truly- fail to understand how Pagans can continue this kind of belittling of each other. In modern Wicca and Paganism there as never been a “one right, true and only way.” That’s a Good Thing, all and all.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that it’s (really) time to have some sort of “meeting of the minds” of Wiccan Priestesses & Priests and write up the Laws and Ordains in language that has both some grammatical correctness and – just maybe – consider giving up the pseudo-middle English affectations of Gardener’s “hand of write”? There is discipline in writing your BOS and studying the Laws & Ordains, but, really… English has more elegance than this… and, what with modern communication technology, all the myriad traditions from California to the UK to Argentina could have some say in the process.
They could do that, but that would be tantamount to an admission that their ordains are not all unaltered word for word survivals of Iron Age Europe!
LOL!
Seriously, though, there are Wiccans all over the world & we should start that conversation. Translations, connections, it’s all magic!
Except for the fact that, the very nanosecond anyone announces to anyone that such a project is underway, said project will be confronted with the wall of “You’re not the boss of me!!!” and “who died and made you Pope?” and “What gives you the right to try to dictate… blah, blah blah…”
Rather than trying to write new, grammatically correct, modern English Ordains for all of Wicca, maybe talk to the members of your Tradition about your Ordains and any perceived need to update them for the times?
*Whose* Laws and Ordains? Different BTW lines have different versions. And most of us non-BTW folks don’t include the Laws and Ordains in our books at all.
See comment above yours. Answers all my questions about any attempt very thoroughly.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that it’s (really) time to have some sort of “meeting of the minds” of Wiccan Priestesses & Priests and write up the Laws and Ordains in language that has both some grammatical correctness and – just maybe – consider giving up the pseudo-middle English affectations of Gardener’s “hand of write”? There is discipline in writing your BOS and studying the Laws & Ordains, but, really… English has more elegance than this… and, what with modern communication technology, all the myriad traditions from California to the UK to Argentina could have some say in the process.
They could do that, but that would be tantamount to an admission that their ordains are not all unaltered word for word survivals of Iron Age Europe!
LOL!
Seriously, though, there are Wiccans all over the world & we should start that conversation. Translations, connections, it’s all magic!
Except for the fact that, the very nanosecond anyone announces to anyone that such a project is underway, said project will be confronted with the wall of “You’re not the boss of me!!!” and “who died and made you Pope?” and “What gives you the right to try to dictate… blah, blah blah…”
Rather than trying to write new, grammatically correct, modern English Ordains for all of Wicca, maybe talk to the members of your Tradition about your Ordains and any perceived need to update them for the times?
*Whose* Laws and Ordains? Different BTW lines have different versions. And most of us non-BTW folks don’t include the Laws and Ordains in our books at all.
See comment above yours. Answers all my questions about any attempt very thoroughly.
One of the complications, I think, is that English – the language we’re using here to talk about what we do – is so heavily influenced by Christianity’s approach to religious practice.
There are times I’ll use the word ‘worship’. But there are also times when I’ll use ‘honour’ or ‘work with’ or ‘celebrate’ or ‘share in ritual with’, depending on what I’m focusing on. (I dislike ‘use’ immensely.) If it didn’t sound so business-speak, I’d use ‘collaborate’ more.
But I’m also aware we have word gaps: there are not great words in English for a deity relationship where we offer something they can’t readily do on their own. For example, look at Drawing Down or other similar work: that is an amazing ritual act, but it’s not what most people think when they hear ‘worship’ (and it’s more of a partnership for mutual benefit than ‘worship’ implies to many people.)
I like “commune” for Drawing Down and similar work, though, you’re totally right, it lacks all the needed nuances.
One of the complications, I think, is that English – the language we’re using here to talk about what we do – is so heavily influenced by Christianity’s approach to religious practice.
There are times I’ll use the word ‘worship’. But there are also times when I’ll use ‘honour’ or ‘work with’ or ‘celebrate’ or ‘share in ritual with’, depending on what I’m focusing on. (I dislike ‘use’ immensely.) If it didn’t sound so business-speak, I’d use ‘collaborate’ more.
But I’m also aware we have word gaps: there are not great words in English for a deity relationship where we offer something they can’t readily do on their own. For example, look at Drawing Down or other similar work: that is an amazing ritual act, but it’s not what most people think when they hear ‘worship’ (and it’s more of a partnership for mutual benefit than ‘worship’ implies to many people.)
I like “commune” for Drawing Down and similar work, though, you’re totally right, it lacks all the needed nuances.
I’m not sure if it has been touched upon in others comments, but when the term ‘Old Religion’ was given, it was in reference to Catholicism, which was completely outlawed throughout England.
Relics, Prayers to Saints, Latin inscriptions and an allegiance to someone other than the Monarch (the Pope, with disdain these these mentioned actions were described as ‘popish’) were acts that were suspiciously viewed as Witchcraft within a puritan mindset and also a treasonable offence with a Monarch who is also the head of the Church of England, a title given to the Monarch of ‘Defender of the Faith’.
Interesting! I didn’t know that!
the old time religion is witchcraft. NOT catholicism or christianity.
People mean different things by ‘Old Religion’, though. Cunning Man is correct in that it is often used to refer to Catholicism in England. That’s less the case these days since Catholic emancipation and the decline in CoE attendance, but it was very much the case in the 17th/18th centuries (complete with slight sneering tone for that which is considered left behind in the past).
Put’s a whole new spin on that song “Gimme that Old Time Religion.” Ha! Maybe when people are singing it they’re having a Freudian slip?
Maybe you’ve seen this classic “filk”: http://mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=4448 …?
LOL! not according to the ole gospel tune
Can you provide solid documentary evidence for that assertion?
It’s easy to find evidence for Cunning Man’s assertion.
I’m not sure if it has been touched upon in others comments, but when the term ‘Old Religion’ was given, it was in reference to Catholicism, which was completely outlawed throughout England.
Relics, Prayers to Saints, Latin inscriptions and an allegiance to someone other than the Monarch (the Pope, with disdain these these mentioned actions were described as ‘popish’) were acts that were suspiciously viewed as Witchcraft within a puritan mindset and also a treasonable offence with a Monarch who is also the head of the Church of England, a title given to the Monarch of ‘Defender of the Faith’.
Interesting! I didn’t know that!
the old time religion is witchcraft. NOT catholicism or christianity.
People mean different things by ‘Old Religion’, though. Cunning Man is correct in that it is often used to refer to Catholicism in England. That’s less the case these days since Catholic emancipation and the decline in CoE attendance, but it was very much the case in the 17th/18th centuries (complete with slight sneering tone for that which is considered left behind in the past).
Put’s a whole new spin on that song “Gimme that Old Time Religion.” Ha! Maybe when people are singing it they’re having a Freudian slip?
Maybe you’ve seen this classic “filk”: http://mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=4448 …?
LOL! not according to the ole gospel tune
Can you provide solid documentary evidence for that assertion?
It’s easy to find evidence for Cunning Man’s assertion.
I’ve had similar conversations many times with friends. It’s once again one of those topics that Pagans (and those Pagan adjacent) can’t all agree on.
For me, personally, witchcraft is a practice, not a religion, though people can practice forms of religious witchcraft, marrying the two (which is what I tend to call my own beliefs these days).
I worship the god/desses and when I work with them petition them and ask for their help – I never demand or expect them to work *for* me.
But as usual, ask 10 Pagans, get 12 answers, lol.
I’ve had similar conversations many times with friends. It’s once again one of those topics that Pagans (and those Pagan adjacent) can’t all agree on.
For me, personally, witchcraft is a practice, not a religion, though people can practice forms of religious witchcraft, marrying the two (which is what I tend to call my own beliefs these days).
I worship the god/desses and when I work with them petition them and ask for their help – I never demand or expect them to work *for* me.
But as usual, ask 10 Pagans, get 12 answers, lol.
I’ll stick my hand up. I am a witch and a Pagan, I don’t worship the Gods. Honour them, yes. Speak to them, often. But, I don’t worship them, and they don’t expect it of me.
l also don’t order them about during spellcasting and ritual. Unless I am doing a major magical undertaking, I tend not to call upon them at all. When I do ask them to attend, it is to bear witness, not to assist.
I did ask Modron once if She wanted my worship, She just laughed and said I wouldn’t be me if I did.
how do you know they dont expect you to? she laughed? are you on medication?
I’ll stick my hand up. I am a witch and a Pagan, I don’t worship the Gods. Honour them, yes. Speak to them, often. But, I don’t worship them, and they don’t expect it of me.
l also don’t order them about during spellcasting and ritual. Unless I am doing a major magical undertaking, I tend not to call upon them at all. When I do ask them to attend, it is to bear witness, not to assist.
I did ask Modron once if She wanted my worship, She just laughed and said I wouldn’t be me if I did.
how do you know they dont expect you to? she laughed? are you on medication?
To be honest, I can understand why people shy away from the word “worship”. It’s been given a whole new definition during the reign of the Catholic Church. But personally, I feel that when Witches worship, it is out of a place of love, of true understanding, and true adoration. It’s not about groveling, bribing, sucking up to any Gods to make sure we go to paradise in the afterlife.
Also, might I add this…I don’t worship ALL Gods. I worship the Lady/Goddess and the Lord/God, and perhaps a few others I feel strongly connected to. The others I see more as guardians, guides, or what Catholics call “Saints” (though I would never use that term). They are the ones I see more as “friends” or equals, people helping to keep the Earth moving, people there to help us. Those Gods I honour with all my heart, but no actual worship.
To be honest, I can understand why people shy away from the word “worship”. It’s been given a whole new definition during the reign of the Catholic Church. But personally, I feel that when Witches worship, it is out of a place of love, of true understanding, and true adoration. It’s not about groveling, bribing, sucking up to any Gods to make sure we go to paradise in the afterlife.
Also, might I add this…I don’t worship ALL Gods. I worship the Lady/Goddess and the Lord/God, and perhaps a few others I feel strongly connected to. The others I see more as guardians, guides, or what Catholics call “Saints” (though I would never use that term). They are the ones I see more as “friends” or equals, people helping to keep the Earth moving, people there to help us. Those Gods I honour with all my heart, but no actual worship.
Witchcraft is a craft, Wicca is a religion. They are not the same. You can practice witchcraft and not be Wiccan, you can be Wiccan and not practice witchcraft, or you can practice witchcraft and be Wiccan. Gods to be worshipped are those that come to you in the practice of Wicca.
Except when you practice religious Witchcraft, like Strega and other non-Wiccan forms of Craft.
There is a LOT more to Modern Pagan Witchcraft than just Wicca. Feri, 1734, ContraryWise, etc.
Witchcraft is a craft, Wicca is a religion. They are not the same. You can practice witchcraft and not be Wiccan, you can be Wiccan and not practice witchcraft, or you can practice witchcraft and be Wiccan. Gods to be worshipped are those that come to you in the practice of Wicca.
Except when you practice religious Witchcraft, like Strega and other non-Wiccan forms of Craft.
There is a LOT more to Modern Pagan Witchcraft than just Wicca. Feri, 1734, ContraryWise, etc.
I am one of those non-Wiccan religious Witches, for whom worship of a deity is part of my craft.
Maybe it’s become old-fashioned to see deity as both immanent and transcendent, as both within and without, as a part of this world and the creator(s) of it. But that is still where I stand in my beliefs thanks to both training and my personal experience throughout more years than I care to count.
For me, the gods are there to guide me and I show my appreciation of that guidance in my worship of them. I like how you put it in the last sentence of your last paragraph. That sums it up for me.
Then again, the caveat is that it’s my personal point of view. Everybody else’s will be different, and I respect that.
I also believe in both immanent and transcendent Deity. I think you’re right, it may be considered old fashioned these days.
I am one of those non-Wiccan religious Witches, for whom worship of a deity is part of my craft.
Maybe it’s become old-fashioned to see deity as both immanent and transcendent, as both within and without, as a part of this world and the creator(s) of it. But that is still where I stand in my beliefs thanks to both training and my personal experience throughout more years than I care to count.
For me, the gods are there to guide me and I show my appreciation of that guidance in my worship of them. I like how you put it in the last sentence of your last paragraph. That sums it up for me.
Then again, the caveat is that it’s my personal point of view. Everybody else’s will be different, and I respect that.
I also believe in both immanent and transcendent Deity. I think you’re right, it may be considered old fashioned these days.
I think many simply wish to use witchcraft or wiccan practise without the gods and goddesses because they want beliefs/ rituals in which they solely control. Especially after negative interaction with monotheistic religion, some may shy away from any worship/ belief in gods or goddesses.
I think many simply wish to use witchcraft or wiccan practise without the gods and goddesses because they want beliefs/ rituals in which they solely control. Especially after negative interaction with monotheistic religion, some may shy away from any worship/ belief in gods or goddesses.
i worship the god and the goddess. as equals. Kind of like the christians because we aren’t all that different. Less guilt and ridicule. I have respect for all religions, except scientology because it’s bs and any that kill in the name of religion. I dont believe in heaven or hell. I believe in another plain. I believe my dad can hear me when i talk to him where ever he is and i believe karma takes care of things in this life. every person believes what they want. no one should be ridiculed for thier be beliefs…um unless they think they are having tea with a god laughing it up……
Wait, so let me see if I got this right – no one should be ridiculed for their beliefs, unless they are interacting with their deities in a different way than you are? I think it’s rude to ridicule someone just because they take the gods more literally than you do. I know plenty of people who talk about laughing and conversing with their deities. Just because it doesn’t fit into your paradigm doesn’t mean you should make fun of it.
I’m a jerk so while I may tolerate something, I will certainly ridicule the hell out of it if it’s ridiculous to me. But you do have a point, you can’t say no one should be ridiculed while doing a bit good ol’ ridicule yourself. It’s like my mother used to say “If you’re going to break bad, break bad all the way.”
Oh yes, I understand people will ridicule what they find ridiculous. I just have a problem with the hypocrisy of her comment.
We’ve between studiously laughing at our selves for the 40+ years I’ve been a Wiccan & (very) Pagan. Why stop now? One of the reason why I’m in this is because we do laugh at ourselves! (Never will I forget one Gardenarian Priestess, with a complete deadpan, evoke the Circle one Spring Equinox with the entire periodic table- and – not with the song.) (OK! I want Berkelium next time!)
i worship the god and the goddess. as equals. Kind of like the christians because we aren’t all that different. Less guilt and ridicule. I have respect for all religions, except scientology because it’s bs and any that kill in the name of religion. I dont believe in heaven or hell. I believe in another plain. I believe my dad can hear me when i talk to him where ever he is and i believe karma takes care of things in this life. every person believes what they want. no one should be ridiculed for thier be beliefs…um unless they think they are having tea with a god laughing it up……
Wait, so let me see if I got this right – no one should be ridiculed for their beliefs, unless they are interacting with their deities in a different way than you are? I think it’s rude to ridicule someone just because they take the gods more literally than you do. I know plenty of people who talk about laughing and conversing with their deities. Just because it doesn’t fit into your paradigm doesn’t mean you should make fun of it.
I’m a jerk so while I may tolerate something, I will certainly ridicule the hell out of it if it’s ridiculous to me. But you do have a point, you can’t say no one should be ridiculed while doing a bit good ol’ ridicule yourself. It’s like my mother used to say “If you’re going to break bad, break bad all the way.”
Oh yes, I understand people will ridicule what they find ridiculous. I just have a problem with the hypocrisy of her comment.
We’ve between studiously laughing at our selves for the 40+ years I’ve been a Wiccan & (very) Pagan. Why stop now? One of the reason why I’m in this is because we do laugh at ourselves! (Never will I forget one Gardenarian Priestess, with a complete deadpan, evoke the Circle one Spring Equinox with the entire periodic table- and – not with the song.) (OK! I want Berkelium next time!)