It fascinates me that there is no continuing education in Paganism (such as “Sunday School” or “Bible study”) but we have an endless series of 101 classes. I had to take them when I was considering the Alexandrian tradition of Witchcraft. I sometimes took classes twice when I was active in the Ravenwood tradition I was initiated in. Now I have rejoined Hellenion after an almost ten year absence and find yet another set of 101 classes facing me.
Don’t get me wrong. I get the need for 101 classes. They are useful. They are good. They are fine. But at some point it feels as if you’re taking kindergarten over and over again. It’s no wonder we have the phenomenon of “tradition collectors” who rack up initiations like they’re merit badges. Seekers are subjected to this intense course of study and then left cold.
I’m not saying any of the classes I’ve taken weren’t useful, but the idea of trudging through another one, no matter how wonderful, leaves me tired before I even start.
Every religious community needs social interaction, heartfelt practice and serious study to be balanced. Keeping these things in balance makes a healthy community. While most Pagans are good at keeping the first two going strong, continuing education often falls by the way pretty quickly.
Continuing education doesn’t have to be difficult. What it consists of may depend on your group, but it could be as simple as a book club, a regular magical cooking get-together, an ongoing herbal study, or even an in-depth look at each of the Orphic hymns in turn.
I think it’s something more Pagans need to consider. Most Pagan groups ask for very little time from their members. Maybe 1-2 nights per month. Far less than being active in a Christian church calls for. Maybe the answer to “collectors” is working to keep people engaged. It’s not hard to do. Engaged people tend to show up for ritual. Engaged people tend to show up for social events. Engaged people tend to become invested and committed to the group and it’s future. Having an invested and committed group of people opens the possibilities for new areas of growth, new Pagan charities and educational ventures.
At any rate, those are my thoughts this morning.
Way back when I was running my covens, while we did have a sort of “perpetual 101 class” for new incoming people, we spent the dark of each moon exploring much more complex subjects. I would lead more simple instruction on full moons, and the “higher grade” stuff at dark, just because it seemed a good schedule without leaving me completely tapped of energy. I’ve always hated that people want you to go back to Kindergarten when looking at a new tradition or path. I wanted to finish my Alexandrian Wiccan training (I made it to 2nd but my Initiator died) by attaining 3rd Degree… I’d done all the work (twice over *groan*) and put in a heck of a lot of effort. In contacting a (then) local HPS, I was told I’d have to leave my current coven (you know, that I was running and had been for about 4 years) and take their 101 classes to “be evaluated.” I decided it wasn’t worth it.
I don’t blame you. That’s ridiculous.
In reference to so much Wicca 101, I have the following thoughts…
1. As in all martial arts, the basics are key to understanding. Wicca is an art and a science.
2. In my trad, the student, upon initiation is expected to take on the information that was explained in the classes and internalize it. Not so it can be regurgitated at will, but that it takes upon the new initiate the true lessons within those classes.
3. If someone was an initiate of another trad and wanted to join us, there is an opportunity to do so without retaking the classes you describe as 101. Perhaps I would suggest that someone take the classes so that they can become familiar enough with the material so as to teach it.
4. In my 20+ years in wicca, I have yet to run out of insight and inspiration from the classes taught to me by my trad elders so long ago. It was what I was looking for and I found it. That said, traditional wicca is not for everyone. It places the bulk of the growth responsibility upon the new initiate. Many are not interested in that type of learning. Some are…its why there are more 1st degrees than 2nds or 3rds (my trad has 3 degrees).
5. No one group can do it all for everyone. Thats why there are groups of differing flavors and strengths… We don’t need any Wiccan Mega-Churches. How could the leaders care for people that they barely know?
6. At the end of the day, Wicca is about personal responsibility. If you need more wiccan ed. ask for it. You will likely be known by your deeds in our circles. Few things are hidden.
7. For those that disagree with me, Blessed Be! May we all be governed by the love within us…
I’ve written positively about your educational offering in the past and haven’t said anything negative about them here. Blessed be.
Spot on with the martial arts reference. I have been doing martial arts for about 25 years (I’m 30)…I still practice the basics. I still *need* to practice the basics. There is still so much to learn.
Same with Wicca. One of the key reasons I’m Wiccan is because it is participatory–each time I participate in circle (whether as Priest or attendee) I am participating on some level…and faced with another opportunity to learn.
You learn the theory. You do the work. The work leads to insight. Insight is learning…which leads to more work…and more insight.
I feel you Allyson. My wife and I might require the same thing if there was no one to vouch for you. However if we had known your previous teacher, their students and we could get a bearing on the training from someone like yourself, we would probably expedite things. We may make the student take the initial classes again but these can be enhanced or they could be condensed so we know the student knows their stuff. We may or may not have them go through initiation rituals again depending on the circumstances but there are reasons outside of teaching for that.
If no one in the chain could vouch for a student, we would probably start at the beginning though. I see this as a different issue though and it is clouded by issues of secrecy and access to records related to the autonomy of groups.
When I meet people who claim initiations that I can’t verify (or actually do have legitimate initiations, for that matter) I have chosen to take the attitude that once I circle with you, I’ll know if you are an initiate or not.
If you’ve got “it”, it’s just the details of the new trad and cross-initiation formalities.
If you can’t function in a circle at the level I would expect from an initiate, I won’t bother with you unless you’re willing to learn (and unlearn) again.
If you’ve got “it,” but no formal initiations, I would be honored to initiate you. In that case, the student has done the work, the Gods gave the initiation, and all they need is the details of the Trad and the formal donk on the head to keep everyone’s oaths happy.
This…so very this.
As my initiators’ elder said: “If you can, you are.” That has become one of the four “laws” in the front of our Book of Shadows.
The more advanced classes tend to come after you’ve been accepted to a group for that advanced training. We start people on the 101 courses and progress from there. We tend to have some sort of lesson built into each gathering. Currently we have at least one gathering once a week and we’re trying to line up more sessions to fill out the year.
As each coven, grove, circle, or whatever the group is called is autonomous, the instructions vary between them. If you’re tradition isn’t doing this then it might not be the correct one.
Advanced classes and continuing education are different things. Most traditions offer advanced classes that aren’t regular and ongoing, but sporadic and insular.
There is no such thing as a correct tradition.
They can be regular and ongoing. That is something my wife and I are working towards. We currently only have two students and they are on different levels but we’re working to include more training in the advanced things on an ongoing basis. Maybe not weekly but on a bi-weekly or monthly basis to account for everyone’s schedules.
For correct tradition, I meant for the individual. I’ve been working the same Tradition since I was initiated over a decade ago. I see no need to switch to another because there is so much still to do in this one.
So are you creating an experience that didn’t exist for you, or are you trying to continue the experience you had?
A little of both. There are specific instructions and projects we have for higher levels that were taught to us. We also have a section of “Advanced Instructions” that contains things that we weren’t taught that we’re working on. We can’t take anything away from the training but we can add to it.
We also require each new student to bring something new to the group and part of themselves. Something they need to teach us and we can share with others in the Tradition.
In my experience, the lessons leading up to the various initiatory processes and events also prepare the student to receive their further training and insights directly from the source. At least, that is how it has worked for me. It’s really difficult to quantify some experiences and lessons- it’s one of those ‘you have to be there’ situations. There is a point when one must put down the book and pick up the tools.
Right, but learning the names of the Sabbats shouldn’t be the last time you seriously discuss your tradition in a study group. Practice without reflection becomes rote.
There are certain Paths that do not utilize groups, like mine. Reflection IS my practice, and my work is seamlessly integrated into my life.
I’m not talking about individual practice though. I’m right there with you though. Without a group i have to be reminded to put down the books.
You mentioned a book club earlier and the need to discuss the tradition in a study group beyond the 101 classes. Did you ever consider facilitating the book club yourself?
I’m detecting some idea that I’ve failed in your estimation. I do not have the time to facilitate a book club, but in general I think they are a great idea.
Simply that sometimes you have to do it yourself. If you want a book club, start one…or con…I mean *help* someone else start one if you can’t spare a couple of hours a month.
Right, except this isn’t about me. It’s about continuing education being provided by Pagan organizations in some form, which many commenters agree is lacking in some traditions. This is about orgs, not individuals.
My point is that it is sometimes up to the student to start up the process…at the very least to help one’s teacher who may not have time (or other resources) to facilitate such an endeavor.
If one thinks there is a lack of discussion that should be had to compliment the ritual, then that person ought to consider facilitating the discussion. It could be a discussion with the whole group…or one-on-one with a fellow group member.
I do think it is about individuals. If individuals are not satisfied with their experience they have a choice: take the opportunity to facilitate change or find another place that gives that person what she/he wants.
That’s all. Nothing intended to say, “And if you didn’t you failed.”
I think it would also benefit us as a community to begin to help people find others to help them pick up the tools. I see other people in my own faith-community here in Illinois that are far more … advanced (for lack of a better term) than I and wish that I had some help getting there, but I’m never quite sure what the next step is. And, since I was presented with an additional 101 course the last time that I tried to take that step for myself, it’s disheartening to think that I’ll just have to do it all over again.
To reply to myself, it’s also true that I could be a little more assertive in seeking assistance, but it’s hard to know where the line is when you’re working with others on something so personal as religious or ceremonial practices.
You should be more assertive. Break into people’s homes and watch them sleep. That’s a great start.
*Never take advice from Star.
Good idea! What’s your address again
Probably 3 tents down from you at PSG, but I wake up punching!
Thank you so much for talking about this — I do not think that I have seen anyone else discuss it. In my experience, one of our community’s strongest points can be our education about our own religion and about other faiths, but this strength is not universal. For social reasons as well as educational, continuous gatherings for discussions and training is a very good idea.
Part of the problem, I think, is that our diversity creates a situation in which the leaders of Group A don’t necessarily feel like Group B might be providing a solid foundation of 101-style information to their people. I know I’ve got through 101-style processes about three times with different groups each time and each one was very, very different.
This might be less of a problem for groups within the same tradition (e.g., an Alexandrian coven is likely to be similar to other Alexandrian covens), but if you studied with an Alexandrian and then decided to study with someone with a Reclaiming background, I doubt that the Reclaiming members would want to jump right into 201-style information without making sure you’re up to snuff with your 101′s.
So… if Group A isn’t sure Group B gave a solid foundation, couldn’t Group A “test” the candidate from Group B to see what the candidate actually learned?
Couldn’t there be a 101-REVIEW sort of course, in which the leaders acknowledge that you DO know a bunch of the basics, but let you know that they want to be sure you understand/remember and that you’ve learned the details that are important to this particular tradition?
I mean seriously, how many times must one be taught the Sabbats? Unless your tradition has unique approaches to them, the Wheel of the Year remains the Wheel, does it not?
The test might in and of itself reveal things oathbound, is I imagine the drawback. I was given a password to identify myself to other trad Witches with, and I remember thinking “But how do I know they have the same password? Or that just because they ask the question, they know the password themselves?”
I think there could be a review, but to have a review there needs to be a somewhat standard set of knowledge that a Pagan is expected to have at the 101 level. For example, the third time that I took a 101 style course there was a strong emphasis on herbalism and astrology while these were topics that weren’t even included in other 101 style classes I took.
Again, our diversity creates a situation where to standardize something across traditions I think we start to approach a level of homogeneity that would be anathema to many in the community (including me).
There’s also a “getting to know you” aspect that I think should not be overlooked. A person might know all the 101 material when they walk in the door…but it takes time to find out if they’re really someone you trust enough to initiate or elevate. It goes both ways–it’s a good time for the new kid on the block to find out if this is who she/he wants to join.
Yeah, but you don’t have to give them the pagan equivalent of busywork. If they know the 101 material, encourage them to study something in depth, or to share something they already know in depth.
I am with you. I can’t tell you how many times I have taken Wicca/Paganism 101 classes simply hoping I will meet someone to go beyond with. Once I started feeling like a lazy Hermione Granger, I started feeling lost on my path.
Someone else mentioned wishing those who were further on would be willing to point the neophytes in more specific directions, I agree there, too. In my experience, I am either directed to what other people want me to do, whether it’s in my best interest, or people who want to hold their knowledge to theirselves like some kind of precious gold.
I don’t think someone facilitating continuing education requires special knowledge. Anyone can open up their living room, make a pitcher of lemonade and invite folks over to discuss a topic once a week or month.
Also, are you the bumper sticker lady on Hellenion??
Aye. I really want a bumpersticker. When I was rear-ended years ago I lost my original one!
This is something we have continued to create for more than 20 years. Moving from simply having basic courses, our tradition is always adding to the knowledge base. Based on the single premise ‘All Knowledge is Worth Knowing’, we recognize that knowledge is constantly shifting. even if you have a 101 course, the information and knowledge within can change as more ideas, facts, and research happens.
Add to this a interanl transcript system that is shared by most of our groups, anyone who learned from one group in our tradition can pick up elsewhere. This has help out so many people, and adding our online component, people can learn at their own pace in their own way.
So yes, we need continuing education, but even more so, we need to have a learning culture that believes in a lifetime of education.
You’ve also received some flack for that if I recall. Many oathbound traditions were not pleased with the knowledge gathering techniques suggested in “Witch Wars Defense Manual.”
They were and still are. The fact is no one ever has broken a Oathbound group, just a fantasy of the critics. The Witch Wars Defense Manual was just that, how to deal with nonsense that happens and was a rather Discordian manual. It has always surprised me how many people make claims from it who never even read it.
But in speaking of education, the need to constantly upgrade skills go way beyond the need of traditions, and yes even Oathbound traditions leaked out most of the materials in writings and books. Having spoken with a lot of youth, Traditions are becoming more like disciplines. They are being studied in the way you study a branch of science or music. The Syncretic Eclectic aspects of our macro-faith are changing this. I saw it at Pantheacon where no leader or speaker I met claimed to belong to a single tradition exclusively.
Now I do believe in blogs, radio shows and other social media outlets such as yours are part of our continuing education. Our exploration of a movement seeking to comphrehend ourselves. This is no small movement, and I find that I read between 10-20 blogs a day easily. People are not stupid, they are in fact brilliant, and they can learn from anything. So the idea of creating deeper understanding and synchronizing our knowledge is the process and phase that I believe will continue in this decade, and that by 2020, we will see a far more coherent community, with a huge cloud of knowledge possibilities.
I read it.
It’s my understanding there were several tradition specific events at Pcon, and several speakers who still identify as being of a specific tradition. I believe traditions hold the future of Paganism. We cannot continue as an amorphous, unstructured blob.
Thanks for reading it. I have always enjoyed it.
Yes, there are several tradition specific events, and they were lovely. But the number of people who claim to exclusive one tradition were rare, and those whom we look to at the high end, none at all.
I don’t see the Pagan community as a unstructured, there is a lot of structure. It is that no one group can create rules or structures that are universally accepted. I have always loved that some traditions hold to a structure and others hold no visible structure. It is what makes this a great movement to be part of. At the end of the day, it is a faith of people, individual relationships to deity and others, and not a compulsion set forth by the macroculture.
As always time will tell what structure emerges, if any. The idea of a highly public community like this, in 1990 was unthinkable, and was a way to get yourself ostracized. I know because I become public fully in 1991, and had all the High Priests and Priestesses afraid for me, for my family and our safety. Today, we have tens of thousands of people who are public. That is a major change, and I think deeply we are all on the right track, even if it does not feel that way sometimes.
I didn’t care for it.
We had very public traditions and leaders in the 70′s and 80′s. I don’t think it was unheard of 1990, or nearly as dangerous.
It was a different world and the perception was one of the Broom Closet. But I am happier now, and agree wholy with your basic premise of continued education.
I can slightly agree. It’s sometimes tiring, even when reading book, to come across with the same 101 everytime – sometimes I’d like to go to the core fo the book and be able to filter that.
But it’s nice to have different approaches to 101 stuff. Yes, even the Sabbats. Yes, even if you *know* their name, and meaning and you have celebrated them.
I think that, in the context of being introduced to a group, the previous *training*, or 101 is a key thing. It shows the group if you are able or not to start from the beginning, without complaining. Also, it gives you the chance to re-contemplate all those basic matters with the perspective of the group itself, thus, the chance to *tune in*. And I think that this last thing is the most important one, that you have a span of time to *adapt* yourself to the group, and vice versa.
Moreover, I would say that there’s nothing like «Advanced paganism» (or replace paganism for a tradition’s name). There’s, of course, «talking more, almost endlessly, about the same subjects reflecting author’s opinion about it».
In my humble opinion, you make the information ‘advanced’ when you investigate on non-pagan books related to some terms or facts mentioned on pagan books; when you work on them, when you reflect them, and achieve them. I do not think there’s anything more advanced than that.
In short, there’s an strange thought by people thinking that there’s some ‘general advanced knowledge’ hidden that cannot be achieved by oneself and that authors keep hidden, when, in fact, it’s everything out there
Of course, you have some alternatives like the 3rd Degree materia of Witchschool! That’s advanced for sure!
Best Regards,
I’m not talking about advanced occult knowledge per se, but deeper engagement. I could likely get something out of a weekly study on each of the Sabbats in turn.
Or even more structured public group work before, during, and after the Sabbats. I find that, despite the books I’ve read, despite the classes I’ve taken, despite the groups that I’ve worked with for the last 13 or so years, I still don’t always have a solid sense of what to do in order to create more meaning in my life with respect to the daily life of living as a Pagan. That’s something that both cannot be found in books but seems exceptionally difficult to find from the community.
Dash,
The best way to get that is to establish personal relationships with other pagans. The historical way to do that was to join a group, but that’s not necessary. The important thing is to develop an ongoing relationship. Everything else builds on that foundation.
I agree, Ian. I just find that, historically, I have a rough time building bridges less so on a social level, but when it comes to the meat of a discussion, I’m never sure where the lines are.
Granted, I never seemed to color inside of them anyway, but it was nice to know when I had crossed them.
Cause, you wouldn’t want to offend anyone unintentioanlly, you know?
What kind of lines are you talking about? I’m not sure what your concern is.
I wasn’t either talking about advance-occult-knowledge (if there’s something like that the could be taught), but engagement.
I’ve been discussing about polarity for years, for example, each time from a different point of view, on a different frame.
I think that the question here is, what do you consider that should be treated instead of the Sabbats, the Wheel of the Year, Polarity etc…?
Before Raven Kindred North does any of our monthly Blots we have a discussion about the holiday/Gods/stuff that we are doing. Those can delve pretty deep into the lore, personal experiences, opinions, anecdotes and everything in between. Not to mention that it really hooks everyone onto the same page with the subject matter and connects everyone.
Honestly, I don’t understand why folks would ever have a religious ritual without something like it.
Actually, because I lack that sort of structure is probably part of why I don’t really have that much in the way of religious ritual in my daily life. It often feels like I’m just going through the motions without any understanding of what it is that I’m doing. So, I’ve just stopped doing those things until I understand them more fully.
“Having an invested and committed group of people opens the possibilities
for new areas of growth, new Pagan charities and educational ventures.”
Having just become active in my local Pagan community, I can see how this is incredibly true. Because of the hard work of a few community members, the grove in my town had almost 100 members attending during high days and roughly 50 for weekly meetings which involved ritual, discussion, arts and crafts, etc. What tore that apart was in-fighting and disagreements over who was ‘doing it wrong/right’, but the community outside of just the grove was strong enough to weather that fighting. Because of the hard work of the Pagans and Wiccans and Heathens in the local Pagan alliance there are always monthly meetings where you can network with people, and the alliance sets up classes for people to attend. Which is great, but weekly/more frequent meetings are something I wish were available. I’ve seen a lot of people both locally and online say they want classes like what you described above, or even just more frequent meetups. The biggest problem I’m running into now is that people will say they want this, they say they will do it, and when you organize it – they don’t show up! That, though, happens in most every community, and while I feel like I’m hitting a brick way (repeatedly, painfully) I know once I find those few people who also will commit and show up and do – then it’ll become less ‘work’ and more ‘fun’ and it’s easier to weather when people float in and out.
Wow, off topic rambling, anywho. Basically, I agree, continuing education is awesome and I would like to see more of it in the community!
”The biggest problem I’m running into now is that people will say they
want this, they say they will do it, and when you organize it – they
don’t show up!”
I’d love to chat a bit about what you’re trying to do to create events that people want to show up to regardless of their follow through. We’ve had the same problem in Illinois to some extent. Find me on FB if you’re interested.
I think that what you quoted is a WorldWide problem in the pagan community.
- “I want events”
- “Oh, we have just organized a conferenc-..”
- “Very nice!!!! But, I’m afraid I can’t got, don’t have/I’m busy/don’t like the subject/have other plans/don’t feel like going/..”
-Event canceled because just one person confirmed-
P.D.: That’s why I love the networking projects, that helps a bit to the people organising events!
I can be irritable and believe in creating opportunities for people who are appreciative and committed, rather than catering to the iffy folks. So that would be my advice in your situation. Just consider whether the folks are reliable and worth your effort.
In undergrad, I was part of a college pagan group that was organized primarily around discussion, with a deliberate choice to never engage in all-group ritual (lots of reasons there, but largely in an effort to be as inclusive as possible).
We did wind up covering the basics over and over, but the immersion in a
strong community of other pagans (of a variety of traditions) allowed
everyone to get up to speed very quickly, and encouraged everyone to do
their own research to bring more back to our discussion. It wound up feeling exactly like a form of continuing religious education, as you’ve described here, to accompany our other studies.
Other than isolated workshops at festivals, it’s an experience that I’m finding very difficult to duplicate outside of that secondary educational environment.
I have this nightmare where I take French I and the teacher gets pregnant and leaves right at the end of the semester and the new teacher doesn’t like the book she had used so we’re all given incompletes and have to take it again. And then at the end of the next semester I have to move to a different town for my job, and the new college doesn’t accept credits from the one I’d attended previously. And then that college burns to the ground over the summer, along with all their records, and I suck up my pride and go to the community college. And it goes on and on like this, where I’m forever taking French I and never getting credit and never able to take French II.
On the one hand, I understand that a teacher I’ve never worked with before has no way to know what I know and what I don’t. There are no standardized entrance exams. Yes, of course, there’s value in being able to shift my consciousness to Beginner’s Mind and show some humility. And I know that there are no shortcuts to enlightenment. On the other hand, I have no idea how many 101-level classes, books, discussions, etc. I have taken, read, participated in, and *taught* over the last couple of decades. More than 30, certainly. The thought of having to sit through another dozen lectures on the Sabbats and the Elements and the Tools kinda makes me want to cry.
If I were petitioning to work with a teacher at this point, I’d probably ask if I could write some essays and do some ritual work to be “tested for my level” rather than sit in the novice classes *again*. At some point, can’t some of the credits transfer?
It occurs to me that one advantage of the apprenticeship model is that “credits” do “transfer”. That is, when one is working one-on-one with an individual, rather than taking a course, a competent master will continually evaluate the apprentice as an individual and adjust the instruction to that individual’s needs *and* abilities.
i have had to keep teaching feri 101 to my distance students because by the time i’d get to the next level a lot of people would have decided that it’s too hard, or they “aren’t getting it” or want to repeat for whatever reason; or else they are new to feri. so this year i have divided my distance study course into three sections: beginners, intermediates, and advanced. and i will refuse to let any student repeat beginner level more than once unless they can show me a really good reason (e.g., they were sick or had other unexpected external problems that hindered their keeping up). from now on, if someone has taken the beginner level before, they either go on to intermediate, or quit to make room for people who are truly beginners.
thing is, feri is quite different from other trads, so people who are experienced in wicca or elsewhere might be lost if i started them out at the intermediate lessons. the beginning class (which is only five monthly lessons) will give them a good basis from which to experience the more advanced material. and i find that people who are experienced in other areas of the craft are better students than complete n00bs. i don’t want to have to be teaching wicca 101 over and over again. beginning feri is more like graduate school: you have to have the prerequisite experience already.
oops, this does sound snobbish, doesn’t it? sorry, but it’s the truth: feri is not for beginners, and not for everyone. the first five lessons will give people a taste so they can see if they want to continue. and it’s ridiculous to demand that they choose between feri and whatever they were involved with before without at least showing them how different feri is. i insist that students at very least RTFM (the DustBunnies’ Big Damn Handout Book). i’ve made it available for free download, so they won’t be buying a pig in a poke. don’t know how much more reasonable i can be.
–veedub