Christian wonders why atheists hate love so much

I am the recipient of electronic mail. This one from Ronnie was disarmingly titled “No Death Wish!”

I am not writing to pass conflict to others. However, I cannot understand why you hate love so much.

What?! Hate ‘love’? That is the unrealistic demeanor reserved only for Disney villains. Are you a child?

It is hard to understand why you (an atheists) hate God and feel you can tell God how things are to be.

Do you hate Ra, Thor, and Zeus? Why do you feel you can tell Ra, Thor and Zeus how things are to be?

What the world does not seem to realize, is God established the chain of command and authority we use in this world. Why do we not do away with the authority structure and have total freedom without restrictions.

I have the right as much as anyone to feel and worship God according to His will. Other so called freedoms will not change or disturb that.

?

This is word salad. This means nothing. I appreciate that you take the time to write to someone outside of your typical social circle, but you really should let someone else eye-ball it before you hit send.

All the reading I have done, and thoughts given by atheists, there is so much pride in self, there is no possible way to understand how to love those who disagree with you.

It is not possible that you’ve done significant research or reading into atheism. You fail to grasp the definition of atheism. At least read the wikipedia page first, you know?

I know you mean well, Ronnie. But you are flailing, and I’m embarrassed for you.

If you still don’t understand… click on the picture of Steve Martin for this same concept in song-form.

Without being brought up as a child to understand the God who is Love, there is still that Grace of God offered to change direction. Twisting history and changing the facts in thought will not conquer this world in the end! No matter how large the number or power developed.

God love everyone, regardless, yet He disapproves of out actions apart from His plan for us.

Maybe god could prove his existence if he cared at all whether or not we follow his plan (also unknown).

There is nothing in this life I personally can do for you to change your ways, and I will not try to. However, God said for me to pray for you, and I will.

What did his voice sound like? Did you get a recording? That sort of evidence / proof would be front-page news! Get some high-tech audio gear immediately!

I have no idea how much a friend I can be to you, as much as God can allow, and would ask you to feel free to contact me if you desire.

Thank You,

Praying For You

Ronnie 

Well you could be friends with me if we worked together I’m sure. Just like all of the Christians I serve with in the US Army. This may surprise you, but I’m quite popular with them. God is not ‘allowing’ their friendship. Time, location, and shared interests allow our friendship.

Facebook is another option, but I’m not sure if you want to join the 4,500 haters of love atheists in discussion until you read up a little more.

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About Justin Griffith
  • unbound

    Hate God? No. Mostly I find Christian mythology rather boring. Greek and Norse mythology is more fun. Egyptian mythology is interesting, but I’m not as familiar with that.

    “God established the chain of command and authority we use in this world.”

    Actually, the priest caste established the chain of command and authority that you are referring to. The evidence that you have that God did this comes the priests and the book they wrote. A bit of a conflict of interest, don’t you think?

  • MichaelD

    It’s cause love beat me up in highschool and took my money and stole my girl friend! Love is a jerk!

  • Randomfactor

    “Why do you atheists hate god’s love? Is it that whole “eternal torture chamber” thing? Because he wouldn’t have to DO that if you didn’t MAKE him…”

  • godlesspanther

    This guy appears to be someone who was heavily indoctrinated from day one. The “hate god” thing is a result of being unable — literally incapable — of grasping the concept of the non-existence of the cosmic whatnot. He will see those who do not believe in god as people who must hate god because, in his narrow little mind, there is no other possibility.

  • uberd00b

    “God is love” is just an abuse of the English language. Who tells someone that they “god them”? Nobody, because they are not the same thing.

  • James

    Really, these cristies are pathetic; too stupid or too brainwashed to hear how they sound to a sane person.

    Did anyone else get approached by a religiot at RBB? Gary (if that was his real name) was handing out trillion dollar bills with some BS “trillion dollar question” on the back. I did good. I didn’t punch him in his pie hole. (Actually, I expected more of that.)

    Did any atheists (organizations or individuals) bother the religitards at Rock the Fort?

  • Timberwoof

    Ronnie did not state his axiom that “God is love.” With it his attempt at reasoning makes a little more sense: God is love; we think God does not exist; therefore we hate God; therefore we hate love.

    “God is love” doesn’t make any sense to start with. There are plenty of examples in various blogs here and elsewhere that show that God is a mean old man. I don’t understand how someone who drowned almost everybody and almost all the animals can be described as being love. It makes no sense to me that a guy who asked someone to kill his son did it out of love. And then there’s the circumcision thing. That’s love? No. God is not love.

    God does not exist. That’s been covered so much in these blogs I don’t have anything to add.

    Ronnie insists that since I don’t believe in God, I must hate him. That’s kind of stupid. I don’t hate the Tooth Fairy, I just don’t think she exists. I don’t believe in Peter Pan, but I do like peanut butter. (Laura Scudder’s, not the kind that has the peanut oil removed and replaced with sugar and vegetable shortening.) But I don’t hate Peter Pan … he’s a fellow elf; how can I hate him? I can pretend to be mad at him for selling out to corporate interests, but I don’t hate him. Atheists hating God is a silly concept.

    And no, I don’t hate love either. Love is a wonderful thing that we need more of. Good Christians need to learn more about it and practice it more instead of spreading lies about atheists.

    I am concerned about one part of Ronnie’s witness: “Without being brought up as a child to understand the God who is Love…” It seems to me that any system of thought that must be indoctrinated before the age of reason (whether Christianity or Jedi) is highly suspect. If you have to teach someone something before they develop the cognitive skills that let them discern truth from fiction (right from wring, if you will) then I suspect there’s something dishonest about the story.

    Ronnie, you’ve been sold a load of bull. Free your mind from the lies of priests who tricked you as a child and never offered you any evidence for what they preach, and have obviously kept you in ignorance of the truth.

  • Larry

    Ronnie, do you believe in Santa Claus? If not, why do you hate him so much? Ronnie would probably answer that you can’t compare Santa Claus with God thus completely missing yet another point. There is nothing to be gained trying to persuade the Ronnies of the world.

  • Sathya

    Atheists hate, alright.

    But we don’t hate love.

    Atheists hate lies.

  • James

    Timberwolf, The other day I got some junk mail (literally)from a local church here in The Cliff (Radcliff, hyuk hyuk Kentucky!) which advertised bible study for “babies” during the easter school break. WTFF?

  • Jeff Sherry

    God equals love? How is that demonstrated from the deity to me and vice versa? Where is the evidence?

  • Justin Griffith

    James. Please send that to me immediately. jgriffith *at* atheists *dot* org

    Take pics / whatever.

  • Daniel Schealler

    I’ve always wanted to say this to someone in person ever since I heard Christopher Hitchens say it, but I’ve never had a real-world opportunity to do so:

    “However, God said for me to pray for you, and I will.”

    I’d love to be with you when someone comes up to both of us and says they’re hearing voices, and it’s God. You’re going to throw your arms around him and say: “You too? What luck!”

  • Tony

    If by “hating love”, he means “disliking the way the word love has been twisted to include approval of eternal torture”, he might be on to something.

  • http://ogremk5.wordpress.com OgreMkV

    God is love…

    Love is blind…

    Therefore…

    Ray Charles is God.

    Courtesy of Richard Jenni

  • HumanisticJones

    “However, I cannot understand why you hate love so much.”

    Wait, does this mean that Justin Griffith is *gasp* DISNEY EVIL? How can you be so evil without a goatee?

  • Jasmyn

    HumanisticJones, Justin would have the goatee if it weren’t for those goddamned restrictive military guidelines.

  • Seek with an open heart

    I apologise to many atheist for feeling persecuted for their beliefs by not so christian christians who did not practice what they preached which is love and forgiveness. Im sure most atheist have come to hate relegions because they are sick of being told they are going to hell for every sin. We as christians need to practice what we preach which is loving our neighbor NO MATTER WHAT, Forgiving the tresspasses against us, and realizing that hating the sin should not mean to hate the person. Love your neighbor christians, pray for ourselves as a whole, realizing god is greater then us all and thinks higher then any human being. There is a reason for everything. One thing science cant explain is the concept of faith. FAITH being key word. This time we live in was told many years ago, Im not sure there is an explination for that?

    John 15:18-21

    “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you… If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you… because they do not know Him who sent Me.”

    Prepare to be persecuted as christians. But look forward to this world to pass and it will be a great day for us all when the messiah returns.

    Do not persecute atheist, Love all people not religion. Be more spiritual in christ not religion. Keep saying our prayers :)

    Like a small neive child who keeps asking why why why and your parents finaly yells because I said so and in time it will all make sense! Now is the times for christians that is is making sense for doing what there father told them too.

  • sumdum

    I apologise to many atheist for feeling persecuted for their beliefs by not so christian christians who did not practice what they preached which is love and forgiveness.

    It’s not a feeling. Stick around, read the blog a while and you’ll find plenty of examples if real actual persecution, not just a feeling.

    Im sure most atheist have come to hate relegions because they are sick of being told they are going to hell for every sin.

    Once again, stick around. On PZ Myers’ blog, Pharyngula, he regularly posts pieces sent in by readers under the heading ‘Why I’m an atheist’. Your proposed reason has not come up yet. The most often stated reason is because religion simply does not make any sense. It’s quite literally, unbelievable. We don’t become atheists because we want to sin or something. We don’t even consider many of the so called sins to be bad. There’s nothing wrong with a little envy, it’s imho what drives us to improve ourselves and the lives we live.

    I’ll let others deal with the persecution complex posted in the bible quote. I’m sure there’s a good reason why religious groups think people disagreeing with them confirms they are right.

  • http://justdfacsmaam.wordpress.com MarkNS

    @#18 Seek with an open heart,

    Your post is ridiculous and you are a deluded idiot.

    p.s.

    I’m still working on that whole “don’t be a dick” thing.

  • James

    Mark: seconded.

    I’m most definitely not working on the whole “don’t be a dick thing.” In fact, I’m ramping up my dickness.

    Seek with an open heart, you’re a fucking idiot.

  • F

    Apparently, atheists are the new Blue Meanies.

  • Seek with an open heart

    So much hostility? where does anger come from? I am not mad at any atheist, you explain your beliefs, and I explained mine and I apologise it didnt sound technical enough on my part. But in my own defence in being called an idiot of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I will ask can you explain the passage of john i posted earlier? is it so far fetched to see how you just scolded me for being a christian and my beliefs, being christianity comes from the word christ itself as we are his followers and what christ himself said in that passage to not be true and if so how do you explain he knew this would happend if he was not in fact god? the alpha and the omega of this world? I read a book entitled “The existance of god” written by an ex atheist and he as yourself was seeking hard evidence of the existance of god, but also explained how science itself DOES NOT KNOW how the universe was made in fact so perfect for human life that scientist only have THEROIES. Many different ones in fact, but the argument he gave was the earth is obviously wired to support life and most importantly human life, was is coincidants? evolution? He states himself that something so “perfect” as earth water and key elements to support life could not be an accident but in fact had to have been pr-planned by and intelligent existance. As to where christians belief god is perfect and man is not only god could have made such a perfect world. In peoples debate about how religion contradicts itself in the bible, this I will not argue is true but as i said it also says in the bible man is not perfect therefor the bible was written by man and man inhabited this earth and there knowledge was not the best of understanding as it is today and yes we as man make mistakes and error in life but doesnt mean religion is a complete error in life. If god does not exist who made god and why? I find it strange most atheist will scream jesus doesnt exist! but many many historians will gladly disagree that jesus christ in fact existed, but my thought is, why would atheist scream that when history is not science? two separate subjects? thus verifying the passage jesus gave us above? I personally not only respect my own beliefs but I see yours and do not deny that everything you say is a lie, but must you tell christians there entire life is a lie? to us christ is truth, he is love, and we love all people even atheist because being atheist doesnt mean you are immorral, you can be atheist and help alot of people and love and be a nice morral person, and you can go to church every sunday and be a very bad and immoral person, but that does not say god doesnt exist. Our brains are wired to seek knowledge humanity craves it, our minds are wired for god who is truth (my beleif) so please dont yell at me. You say religion is unbelievable. I say atheist are like children who always ask why is this or why is that why why why? and the parent finaly has no answers and says just do it or because I said so while adding it doesnt make sense now but in time you will understand what I am trying to teach you, as christians our father told us what to beleive and christians dont want to disobey their heavenly father but from that passage above the atheist movment today now shows christians truth and what to expect to happend. I mean why attack christianity? christians are taught the devil hates christ and all who believe in him, therfore people who despise religion are only feeding religious prophecy for the beleivers to never give up that god does exist.

  • Daniel Schealler

    So much hostility? where does anger come from?

    An absence of paragraph breaks?

    Oh no. Wait. Pretty sure the bible has those.

    Carry on?

  • papango

    Where does anger come from?

    I am angry because your God is barbric and I am being forced to live with his barbarity. I attack Christianity because I see the harm it does and I cannot stay silent (even though, as a women, the bible tells me to)

    You do not respect my lack of beleif because if you did you would realise that I give the bible no more weight than I give the Satyricon, or the Histroies of Herodotus or any other ancient text, and you wuold stop using it to bolster your arguments.

    If you do beleive in the bible, why don’t you follow its rules? There are passages in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that specifically demand that unbeleivers be killed. You cannot truly follow the bible and not take up the sword (literally) and kill unbeleivers.

    “Happy and blessed is the man who takes your little ones, crushing them against the rocks.” – Psalm 137. Don’t you want to be happy and blessed?

  • sumdum

    Said the puddle of water “wow, I fit so perfectly inside this hole, it must have been made for me!

  • kemist

    I read a book entitled “The existance of god” written by an ex atheist and he as yourself was seeking hard evidence of the existance of god, but also explained how science itself DOES NOT KNOW how the universe was made in fact so perfect for human life that scientist only have THEROIES.

    We hear a lot about those so-called “ex-atheists”. If the one you talk about was an actual atheist, and not a poor deluded xian who stopped going to church for a while and got scared into going back one day and thought that this qualified as “being an atheist”, then he had no understanding of science whatsoever.

    Hint #1 : Science is a perpetual search for knowledge and modifies itself according to new evidence. It continually tends towards the truth. Religion simply sticks to wrong made-up stories.

    Hint #2 : Not knowing something does not mean your favorite imaginary sky-buddy did it.

    Our brains are wired to seek knowledge humanity craves it, our minds are wired for god who is truth (my beleif) so please dont yell at me.

    Nobody forced you to come here, peabrain. Do atheists pop up in your churches to tell you you’re all a bunch of deluded freaks ?

    I say atheist are like children who always ask why is this or why is that why why why?

    And I say that xians are like the kids who never ask why about anything because they’re too fucking dumb. Lacking curiosity is not a good sign where intelligence is concerned.

    and the parent finaly has no answers and says just do it or because I said so while adding it doesnt make sense now but in time you will understand

    Bad parents, those who don’t respect the intelligence of their children, do that.

    I mean why attack christianity? christians are taught the devil hates christ and all who believe in him, therfore people who despise religion are only feeding religious prophecy for the beleivers to never give up that god does exist.

    That is not attack, you fool. That’s just speaking our minds. “Attack” is when your rights are taken away, when your kids are covertly indoctrinated against your will in a religion you don’t believe, when you’re denied positions of power because you don’t believe in fashionable bullshit. Take your persecution complex, you poor oppressed xian, and shove it where the sun don’t shine.

  • Seek with an open heart

    Again you are calling me names and being very hostile, it also says in the bible that the intelligent will call the believers fools, which is a word atheist use alot again fulfilling prophecy. I will never deny god, He is truth and he is love and in referance to the psalm you are taking it way out of context which alot of atheist do. The entire psalm is about babylon psalms 137:1-9, The entire psalm is about the evil that was going on in babylon, might I remind you the bible says babylon will come back to earth refering to now the scorners and non believers will attack and mock and laugh at the believers as they say we are stupid, You have yet to get a rise out of me which you are trying to crush me, but you yet to really have an explination for my questions asked before. You just keep saying my faith is made up and I am stupid? you seek a world without god, until the day you see him and ask for his forgiveness and he surely will forgive you because he loves you so much, and that day you see him and still choose not to belive, he will grant man what they desire in their hearts that day, and if it is a world without god, he will give you a world without him. Truly open your heart one time say I accept jesus into my heart and with my whole heart, but you must mean it if you want truth, and he will grant you that grace, God be with you

  • papango

    Of course, it’s out of context. Can you give me the context in which killing babies is acceptable to God? These are babies, what evil have they committed?

    I think the problem might be that you haven’t actually read the bible, not all of it. Because the God you believe in isn’t in there. He sounds very nice, but he is not the God of the bible.

    You might also want to give me some context for these:

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. (Deuteronomy 17:12) (Anyone upset about the rape of children by priests needs executing.)

    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27) (These people are easy to find, they advertise on TV, get on it open heart)

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.” (2 Chronicles 15:12-13) (You can’t be a true Christian and tolerate other religions or atheists, or women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21).

    And, because it is getting tiresome, I will call a halt to this and leave you with the words of God (who is love):

    “Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.” (Jeremiah 48:10) (He curses you, open heart, he sees your tolerance for us and he curses you for it)

  • sumdum

    Seekwith, you don’t seem to understand, just because people mock your beliefs doesn’t mean a prophecy was fulfilled. It means your beliefs are ridiculous. In fact, I bet it wasn’t a prophecy at all, but an observation at the time it was written. The first christians were rightly mocked at the time, and so the apostles warned new recruits that they’d be mocked.

    You must understand another thing; christian apologetics is as old as christianity. You don’t bring any convincing arguments at all, instead you give arguments that were debunked and shown to be based on circular reasoning and other fallacies centuries ago. We have grown soooooo tired of hearing the same old tired arguments over and over and over and over. In fact, the very first people who saw the foolishness in prophecy claims were the jews around 33 AD. Christians claimed their Jesus was the prophesized messiah, the jews who knew the torah inside out immediately saw it was bunk and rejected christianity and remained jewish. Why would you think it would convince us, 2 millenia later ?

    And yes, your faith is just as made up as the stories surrounding Zeus, Odin, Osiris, Bacchus and so on. They’re just myths. Interesting from a historical viewpoint, but no more than that.

  • kemist

    [gibberish] might I remind you the bible says babylon will come back to earth refering to now the scorners and non believers will attack and mock and laugh at the believers as they say we are stupid, You have yet to get a rise out of me which you are trying to crush me,…[more gibberish]

    Don’t you realize that it’s a catch-22 ? Any crook or liar might make “prophecies” about anything to keep you from reasoning your way out of a logical trap.

    Prophecies shmophecies. A lot of what your babble say is a patent lie. Pi = 3. Giants. Unicorns. All of the fake history that no other people on earth corroborates. Not a single mention of anything out of the range of provincial illiterate iron-age shepherds. We have no reason to believe anything it says.

    We’re not trying to get a “rise out of you”, poor, poor oppressed xian [cue the violins], just to make you think a bit beyond your delusions.

  • Seek with your whole heart

    I can treat everybody like a human being with love and dignitiy even atheist, Jesus never condemned anybody, and the torah also says that the messiah will be rejected when he came, as you all will probly do in the second coming and jews did the first, Im not here to judge, only to express my opinion as the rest of the world does. and its also been known some jews had once tried to accept rabbi’s as the messiah after jesus but proved they where wrong because they did not fullfill prophecy and not even compared to the miracles jesus had performed. The jews are gods chosen people, We all believe in one god, The muslims believe in one god, christians believe in one god, judiasm believes in one god. Again you are so mean and hostile still not understanding why? I accept your opinion, it is your OPINION, not understanding why you just cant say if thats what you believe then I can maybe see why, as I have said I can see that all science isnt a lie and not denying your beliefs, but yet saying you can be good people without god and have done nothing but try and hurt my feelings on my beliefs? thus showing there is evil in the world and morrals dont run as deep without god in our lives. I will say no more I have proven my point to other christians on to what we are saying isnt a complete bunk, just like what you are saying isnt a complete bunk. I went to medical school, Ive learned health science and find it to be accurate and never denied how a body works, ive concidered one time in school becoming a meteoroligist because the ways storms formed just facinated me, I never said what you guys say is a complete lie, but you say everything I say is a complete lie? but say you dont need god to treat people like people, but people who believe in god are being treated like dirt on the account that they believe in god, not that they dont believe science is true! the only thing christians say is god made the earth and the universe, but science has yet to come up with only THEORIES not a REAL REAL explination of HOW the universe came about, if we came from monkeys what species of monkey and why are there still monkey species on earth? why didnt they all change if that was the case? why are a majority of species the same and havent changed did evolution just stop??? why have we not changed since biblical times? if evelution was shouldnt it still be? did it just stop? when did we just start staying the same? and why? 2000 years since christ and we have not changed features as humans, we didnt grow any taller or stronger? when did this just stop? and even if we did come from monkeys why would a monkey make up a god and write scriptures about it? that concept is very hard to grasp for me, but I respect that is what your THEORY is. It must be to complex for my peabrain :) Love life with your family and know the earth just is and be happy your alive with them, god is good for having blessing us with even that anymore after the world spits in his face.

  • Anri

    Ok, Seek, it would make your stuff a lot more readable if you learn how to break your text.

    That being said, here goes:

    I can treat everybody like a human being with love and dignitiy even atheist, Jesus never condemned anybody,…

    Actually, he said that the only way to god was through him. That pretty much condemns everybody else, doesn’t it?

    …and the torah also says that the messiah will be rejected when he came, as you all will probly do in the second coming and jews did the first, Im not here to judge, only to express my opinion as the rest of the world does. and its also been known some jews had once tried to accept rabbi’s as the messiah after jesus but proved they where wrong because they did not fullfill prophecy and not even compared to the miracles jesus had performed.

    …I got no idea what this bit is about.

    The jews are gods chosen people, We all believe in one god, The muslims believe in one god, christians believe in one god, judiasm believes in one god.

    Yeah, there are a number of monotheistic religions. But since they utterly disagree on the way to get to heaven, and all insist that their own way is the only way, what’s your point?

    Again you are so mean and hostile still not understanding why?

    Having major world religions say we deserve eternal punishment is mean and hostile. Saying “No, we don’t actually” isn’t.

    I accept your opinion, it is your OPINION, not understanding why you just cant say if thats what you believe then I can maybe see why, as I have said I can see that all science isnt a lie and not denying your beliefs, but yet saying you can be good people without god and have done nothing but try and hurt my feelings on my beliefs? thus showing there is evil in the world and morrals dont run as deep without god in our lives.

    Telling a child Santa Claus doesn’t exist might hurt their feelings, but it’s not immoral. It’s telling them the truth.

    I will say no more I have proven my point to other christians on to what we are saying isnt a complete bunk, just like what you are saying isnt a complete bunk.

    Let me suggest that finding other people to agree with you who already agree with you is a fairly low hurdle to clear.

    I went to medical school, Ive learned health science and find it to be accurate and never denied how a body works, ive concidered one time in school becoming a meteoroligist because the ways storms formed just facinated me, I never said what you guys say is a complete lie, but you say everything I say is a complete lie?

    Please contrast what the bible says about the origin of illness and rain versus what you learned scientifically. These are not compatible, and you say you accept one of them. What does that make the other?

    but say you dont need god to treat people like people, but people who believe in god are being treated like dirt on the account that they believe in god, not that they dont believe science is true!

    Yes, religious people are persecuted. Almost always by other religious people, of course.

    Being persecuted for believeing in something has no bearing on the level of truth in it, of course.

    the only thing christians say is god made the earth and the universe, but science has yet to come up with only THEORIES not a REAL REAL explination of HOW the universe came about,

    Neither has any religion. The difference being that science has actually worked with existing evidence, and found further evidence for its theories.

    if we came from monkeys what species of monkey and why are there still monkey species on earth? why didnt they all change if that was the case? why are a majority of species the same and havent changed did evolution just stop??? why have we not changed since biblical times? if evelution was shouldnt it still be? did it just stop? when did we just start staying the same? and why?

    Please go read about evolution, you are making yourself look terribly stupid by saying such asinine things out loud.

    2000 years since christ and we have not changed features as humans, we didnt grow any taller or stronger? when did this just stop? and even if we did come from monkeys why would a monkey make up a god and write scriptures about it?

    Please go read about deep time, you are making yourself… but you know the rest.

    that concept is very hard to grasp for me, but I respect that is what your THEORY is. It must be to complex for my peabrain :)

    “I’m too dumb to get what you’re saying!” isn’t a very compelling argument.

    Love life with your family and know the earth just is and be happy your alive with them, god is good for having blessing us with even that anymore after the world spits in his face.

    Please learn the difference between “you’re” and “your”. It will make you look less ignorant. A little less, anyway.

  • Kemist

    I can treat everybody like a human being with love and dignitiy even atheist,

    We don’t want your tolerance, you ass, we want you out from under our feet. Keep your delusions out of laws, governement, schools and science. And stop coming to atheist groups to rudely proselytise your nonsense to win brownie points with your pastors if you don’t want us to start picketting your churches.

    and the torah also says that the messiah will be rejected when he came,as you all will probly do in the second coming and jews did the first,

    For the nth time, we don’t care what your fairy tale book says. The baghavad gita says that Ganesha’s head was replaced with that of an elephant, thereby giving him great wisdom – do you care about that ?

    Im not here to judge, only to express my opinion as the rest of the world does.

    Where does your “even atheists” (as if being an atheist was somehow wrong) comes from then, you ass ? And you know what they say about opinions and their striking similarity to assholes…

    The muslims believe in one god, christians believe in one god, judiasm believes in one god.

    Who the fuck cares ? Reality isn’t decided by vote. A stupid idea doesn’t become less stupid by virtue of popularity.

    Again you are so mean and hostile still not understanding why?

    [cue violins]

    I accept your opinion, it is your OPINION, not understanding why you just cant say if thats what you believe then I can maybe see why, as I have said I can see that all science isnt a lie and not denying your beliefs,

    Science is not about beliefs, dimwit, it’s about reality.

    Gravity works whether or not you believe in it. The electronics the computer you type your incoherent nonsense on works whether or not you believe in its principles.

    You’re entitled to your own worthless opinions, not to your own facts.

  • sumdum

    You say you went to medical school, surely you must’ve come across bodyparts or features of the human body that point to evolution ? One of the most striking ones I know of, is the vagus nerve.

    Do you understand what theory means in science ? It’s not what theory means in daily life. Do you accept the theory of evolution or not ?

  • Seek with an open heart

    You cannot PROVE to me there isnt a god any more then I can prove to you there is I admit that, but you yet to admit you cannot PROVE god doesnt exist. Who are you to command god proves himself to you? your nothing but men, made from dirt, god is not a genie you can summon to do your will, you are to do his will, he doesnt ask much, believe, love, do for others. Its the simplest thing but you guys are just picking and picking. ADMIT YOU CANNOT PROVE GOD DOESNT EXIST! I admit that I cannot prove he does “I” believe he does there for I do not require proof. The way you potray a christian is someone who is stupid and naive as a mentally handicap person, but would you really make fun of a handicap person? good without god? I dont see you trying to prove to satanist that the devil deosnt exist? you are blind men trying to teach another blind man where to walk, you will fall if you do not open your eyes. In the name of jesus christ stay away from our children and our families with your vial ways.

  • Kemist

    ADMIT YOU CANNOT PROVE GOD DOESNT EXIST!

    ADMIT YOU CANNOT PROVE THE INVISIBLE PINK UNICORN HIDING IN MY GARAGE DOESNT EXIST!

    I dont see you trying to prove to satanist that the devil deosnt exist?

    “Satanism” is just as stupid an xianity. But “satanists” (which, except in the deluded heads of xian, are a pretty marginal, childish and harmless group) don’t try to take away my rights and make me a second class citizen for not believing in their fairy tales, nor do they rudely come over to atheist sites to proselytise their own brand of nonsense.

    The way you potray a christian is someone who is stupid and naive as a mentally handicap person

    Mentally handicapped persons have malfunctionning brains. They don’t choose to hinder their own thinking the way religidiots do. Stupid people are people with normally functionning brains who choose not to use them.

    you are blind men trying to teach another blind man where to walk, you will fall if you do not open your eyes. In the name of jesus christ stay away from our children and our families with your vial ways.

    Only if you return the favor, monsters. Don’t codify your nonsense in laws, don’t put it in schools, stay the fuck away from our science and our government.

  • Randomfactor

    “God is love.” God, therefore, is an emotional state created and existing solely inside an individual’s skull which affects his outward behavior, especially towards others.

    Yeah, I could live with that definition.

  • Eric Walten

    What the world does not seem to realize, is God established the chain of command and authority we use in this world.

    That must be why God hates Americans: they rebelled against George III, who was their King, by the Grace of God.

  • sumdum

    ADMIT YOU CANNOT PROVE GOD DOESNT EXIST! I admit that I cannot prove he does “I” believe he does there for I do not require proof.We’ll gladly admit we can’t prove god doesn’t exist, you can’t prove a negative. However, the burden of proof does not lie with us. You have already conceded you can’t prove his existence, so I believe we win this debate. You may not require evidence, but we do, because we care if what we believe is true or not.

  • Tony

    I’m aware of TL:DR. Is there a too dumb: didn’t read?

  • Stig

    Seek with…, you need reminding that your belief is merely a theology, and only one of uncounted, that have had their time, then disappeared.

  • James

    Kudos to all y’all who read that gibberish and took the time to write coherant (and properly punctuated and spelled!) responses. So much win in them!

    Medical school, my ass. I used to deliver pizzas to TWU which had (still has?) a top-notch nursing program. I WENT TO MEDICAL SCHOOL!

    Unless you’ve got some letters after your name or documented accomplishments in a specific field, you can’t really argue from authority. Even then, degrees and experience obviously don’t make you intelligent; just smart about one thing. You don’t get to argue everything from authority. Thanks for playing, Seek. Return to your seat please.

    I’ll take my vile ways (I carry them in a vial!) and mosey on down the road now.

  • PirateStoat

    Hello Seek with an Open Heart.

    I speak only for myself here, but I am not upset you chose to approach the atheist community.

    We all live in the same world, so we should be able to be civil with one another.

    The reason I am sometimes upset with religion, in particular the many flavours of Christianity in North America, fundamentally arises from the encouragement of policy decisions that are unsupported by confirmable fact.

    Government policy impacts everyone’s lives, through decisions made about health care, education, economic policy and interaction with other countries. These decisions should be made backed up by as much supporting fact as possible.

    For good governance, those facts should be checkable by anyone, so we can keep our governments honest.

    However, as you have said yourself, the existence of god or gods, and the subsequent truth or falsehood of holy texts attributed to that/those god or gods and/or their prophets, is not provable. It is simply a matter of faith.

    I am very uncomfortable with the idea of making decisions based on beliefs that I do not ascribe to.

    If I may provide an analogy, would you be comfortable living as a minority with your current beliefs in a nation where the majority of the population followed Shinto, or the myths of the Cree people? With economics based on burning offerings of grain to Daikokuten, god of wealth, the harvest and the home?

    I imagine you would think this is a waste of good grain, based on an unsupported belief.

    That is the position we, as people who do not believe in the tenets of Christianity, whether we be Atheists, Muslims, Hindi, Jain or whatever, find ourselves in.

    Governments making decisions that impact our lives for reasons that we consider irrational and unsupported.

    Because all religious belief has the same limitations that you admit your own has, that is, it is not provable, I believe policy decisions should only be made based on confirmable fact.

  • Can you?

    CAN YOU ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS?

    1. What was in the beginning? [Atheists have a dilemma when they say that there was nothing in the beginning. This is because nothing cannot create something. If they say that there were gases (or something) in the beginning, then it’s not the "beginning," because the gases or the “something” already existed. Who or what made them? This is why reasonable atheists admit that they just don’t know, humbling though it may be].

    2. Do human beings have more intrinsic value than animals? [If your pet dog and your neighbor are drowning, and you can only save one of them, who would you save? If it’s your neighbor, why? To an atheist, both the dog and the human being are both a mere species of animal, so their value is completely subjective. Most, if pressed, would say that they would save the human being, but they have no real explanation as to why he has more worth, other than to say that there is moral pressure from the social order to value a person more than a dog].

    3. What happens after death? [The only way any of us can speak with any authority about the subject of death, is to have reliable information from someone who has been there. God has been there. He transcends death. He is both on this side and on "the other side." When we remove God from the equation, we are left with mere conjecture].

    4. What is the purpose of life? [Without reference to a Creator who made us with the purpose of eternal fellowship, life has no real rhyme or reason. We are just tiny specs on a big ball of dirt, flying through space, striving to be happy, but with no purpose for existence].

    5. Why there is order in all of creation? [If we believe that creation came into being through a big bang, it is important to understand that all explosions cause chaos. Order can only come through an in intelligent designer. Why then is there order from the tiny atom through to the massive universe? Why do summer, fall, winter and spring come around each year, at different times of the year, in different parts of the world--always in the same order? Why can we predict the sun’s rising to the second a 100 years into the future? Why is there order in the makeup of the eye, the ear, the brain, the blood, the heart, liver, kidneys, hands and feet? Every part of creation screams (to a thinking mind) that there is a Creator].

    6. Why is there a sense of morality in every civilization? [How do we instinctively know that it’s wrong to kill, to lie, to steal, etc. Where did this universal morality come from? The only reasonable explanation is the one given by the Bible--that "the work of the Law is written in their hearts" (Romans 2:15), and that God Himself has given light to every man (see Romans 1:18-20)].

    7. Why does every civilization believe in a Creator? [While an atheist may be quick to point out that some religions within certain cultures (such as Buddhism) are atheistic, mankind has never found any civilization (no matter how primitive) that didn’t worship some sort of Creator, whether it be the sun, or an idol].

    8. Why does every sane person have a conscience, even when it is not dictated by society? [If we didn’t accept that the conscience is inherent within every human being, we could never rightly administer civil justice. Morality is shaped by, but does not originate from society].

    9. Which came first–the chicken or the egg? [Without "the book of beginnings" (the Book of Genesis) to tell us that God made the chicken first (see Genesis 1:20), we are merely guessing as to its genesis. If an atheist believes it was a chicken, where did it come from, and how was it given life when there was no egg from which to hatch? If it evolved without an egg, why did evolution change its mind and introduce eggs, if it was doing okay without them. Also, why and when did a rooster become necessary to fertilize the egg so that a chicken would form within it, and which came first, that rooster or its egg? If the atheist maintains that the egg came first, who then made it, (and again) who fertilized it, and who sat on it so that it would hatch? And that’s just the beginning of the beginnings dilemma. Which came first--the eagle or its egg? How about the duck? The owl, the kiwi, the tiny humming bird, and the big old albatross? There is no end to it, if you reject “In the Beginning God created..."].

    10. How did nothing create everything? [It is primary science to understand that it is impossible for nothing to create anything, let alone everything. Material creation cannot be made by nothing. Something had to create it, and the Creator of all things was and is the non-material Spirit of the eternal God, who dwells outside the dimension of time (see Titus 1:2), and is infinitely beyond the comprehension of human understanding].

  • Daniel Schealler

    1. What was in the beginning?

    I don’t know. Neither do you.

    2. Do human beings have more intrinsic value than animals?

    Value is in the eye of the beholder.

    3. What happens after death?

    I don’t know. Neither do you.

    4. What is the purpose of life?

    Purpose is in the eye of the beholder.

    5. Why there is order in all of creation?

    I don’t know. Neither do you.

    6. Why is there a sense of morality in every civilization?

    Because a sense of morality is a prerequisite for forming large enough social grouping for long enough stretches of history to qualify as ‘civilizations’.

    7. Why does every civilization believe in a Creator?

    Citation needed. I don’t know if this is true – there very well could be exceptions.

    If it were true, then even so it is easy enough to explain.

    Our brains are wired to understand the world in terms of stories. Stories have a beginning, middle and end.

    Our brains are wired to make stuff.

    It’s entirely unremarkable that when early humans first tried to make sense of the world, they did it in the form of stories that involved a being or beings that made all the stuff.

    8. Why does every sane person have a conscience, even when it is not dictated by society?

    Obviously: Because that is one of the criteria by which we collectively define sanity.

    But I expect that the question you intended to ask was: ‘Why do people have consciences?’

    I’ll answer the corrected question instead:

    Natural selection wired us to have consciences. I don’t claim to know the full answer as to what selection pressures caused this, I am not a biologist.

    9. Which came first–the chicken or the egg?

    Fish were reproducing via eggs long before the evolution of chickens. So: Eggs came first.

    10. How did nothing create everything?

    I don’t claim to know.

    But consider this much:

    Once, a believer defined ‘nothing’ to me in the following way: The absence of time, space, matter, energy, and natural laws.

    I pointed out that in the absence of natural laws then there was no law that would prevent something coming from nothing.

    The believer then updated their definition to be the absence of time, space, matter, energy, and the absence of all laws save for those that make it impossible for something to come from nothing…

    At which point I indicated he was making a tautological argument that neither proved nor explained anything… At which point he declared himself the winner of our argument. Funny, that.

    ———

    Conclusion

    Note that where I have an answer for the above, I will give it. But much of the rest of the time I admit freely my ignorance.

    Note that ignorance of these questions are not a basis for believing in God. Even sophistrycated theologians reject that kind of God of the gaps thinking.

    The reason I am an atheist isn’t because I claim to know everything: It is because there has been insufficient good evidence put forward to me by proponents of religion in favor of their claims of the world.

    The best explanation for religion that I know, the explanation that is most in sync with the evidence with which I have been presented, is that human beings invented them.

    It is possible that I am wrong: Perhaps there is something out there that is something we could understand (or misunderstand) in terms of referring to it as a God.

    But if such an entity does exist out there in the aether, I cannot know about it until it presents itself in a discernable way.

    Neither can you.

    And do you think that unto such as you;

    A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:

    God gave the secret, and denied it me?–

    Well, well, what matters it! Believe that, too.

    - From The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám, as translated by Richard Le Gallienne

  • Atheismo

    *sticks fingers in ears* lalalalalalalaican’thearyousciencingandlogicinglalalalalaGODDIDIT!lalalalala

    You can’t reason with these people, people! Good efforts, though …

  • Kemist

    1. What was in the beginning? [Atheists have a dilemma when they say that there was nothing in the beginning. This is because nothing cannot create something.

    Don't project your ignorance on us. It is most likely be that "nothing" does create something. Hint: the world is way, way, way stranger than you might think at the scale of subatomic particles. And don't use the argument from ignorant incredulity here, it will just become a written proof that you are an arrogant doofus.

    2. Do human beings have more intrinsic value than animals?

    Moral value isn't intrinsinc, it's relative to the one who's doing the evaluation. I have another question for you : Do your own kids have more value than those of a poor family in India ? What about your tax return vs the life of your neighbor's baby daughter ?

    4. What is the purpose of life? [Without reference to a Creator who made us with the purpose of eternal fellowship, life has no real rhyme or reason. We are just tiny specs on a big ball of dirt, flying through space, striving to be happy, but with no purpose for existence]

    I choose my own purpose. Those who do not are called slaves.

    5. Why there is order in all of creation?

    That’s a superficial appearence. The cosmos is an excessively vast space, full of nothingness and unimaginably powerful objects which could swallow and chew out our whole solar system for an appetizer, or fatally irradiate our small insignificant planet. Most of it is neither neatly ordered nor welcoming to lifeforms.

    6. Why is there a sense of morality in every civilization?

    Because we’re social animals. Incidentally, the best way to utterly pervert a mentally healthy human’s basic morality (to have them kill or shun their own children for non-crimes like non-belief, disobedience or homosexuality for instance) is religion.

    7. Why does every civilization believe in a Creator?

    Because religions are particularly resilient mind-viruses that take advantage of humans’ pattern-finding behavior ? I wouldn’t take much pride in this. Even pigeons have been shown to be supersticious.

    8. Why does every sane person have a conscience, even when it is not dictated by society?

    Because it’s needed for cooperation, and that cooperation gives a huge advantage to the species which is capable of it. But you’ll find that varies from human to human, and often unravels in certain circumstances.

    9. Which came first–the chicken or the egg?

    Egg. Eggs are older than birds.

    10. How did nothing create everything?

    See no 1.

  • Friendly

    > CAN YOU ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS?

    Oh goody. Another theist here to tell us what atheists believe and to stump us with their oh-so-clever gotcha interrogations.

    > 1. What was in the beginning?

    Of the universe? An incredibly dense knot of spacetime, matter, and energy just beginning its expansion. It’s meaningless to talk about anything “before” that point, because time didn’t function or didn’t exist at all then. This doesn’t pose a “dilemma” for atheists — what, do you think we’re all running around shrieking “Oh no! We can’t figure out where all that stuff *came from*!” Why did it have to “come from” anywhere? It *existed* and that’s just the way the universe *works*. If you can’t wrap your head around it, too bad.

    > 2. Do human beings have more intrinsic value than animals?

    Human beings don’t have more *intrinsic* value than animals, but I choose to care for them more highly and to place more *extrinsic* value on them because they are fellow *sentient* beings, and because I would wish them to do the same for me.

    > 3. What happens after death?

    All available evidence shows that our bodies decay and our personalities and selves cease to exist. Show me some evidence for a “soul” beyond “God says there is one,” because there isn’t any remotely convincing evidence for God either.

    > 4. What is the purpose of life?

    There isn’t one. That doesn’t mean we can’t be perfectly happy, fulfilled, and moral while living it.

    > 5. Why there is order in all of creation?

    There isn’t. Tremendous disorder exists from the smallest to the largest scales. The atoms of hydrogen in deep space, the suspended molecules in a glass of milk, the piles of snow on a mountainside, the twisting and snapping magnetic field lines of the sun, etc., etc., are all distributed in a non-ordered way. What order *does* exist comes from forces acting to *locally concentrate* it: The gravity of dark matter drawing gas into galaxies to make stars and planets, the energy of starlight that forms amino acids and other complex molecules, the solvent chemistry that sets the stage for self-sustaining reactions, and the billions of years of evolution that molds those reactions into life forms. Even in life there is disorder: Mutations occur constantly; some of them advantageous, many of them neutral, many of them disadvantageous. Humans have wisdom teeth that no longer fit in their jaws. Pandas had to re-evolve a thumb from a wristbone. The nerves running to a giraffe’s larynx have to run all the way down its neck and back up again. And so on and so on.

    > Every part of creation screams (to a thinking mind) that there is a Creator.

    It’s funny you should say that “creation screams.” Many life forms around us are in terrible pain for their entire lives from infections and parasites and predation wounds and genetic problems. Why would a loving Creator curse all of those trillions of innocent creatures with such agony for something two human beings did?

    > 6. Why is there a sense of morality in every civilization?

    For the same reason there is a “sense of morality” in every ant colony. Cooperation and altruism evolved because they *work*. They can result in better reproductive and evolutionary success for populations even if some of the individual members sacrifice their own time and effort and reproductive potential.

    > 7. Why does every civilization believe in a Creator?

    Because civilizations want to make sense of the universe and their place in it, and when a civilization hasn’t invented the scientific method yet (a relatively recent development at 2600 or so years young), people make up mythologies to comfort themselves (and to differentiate themselves from their neighbors, who believe in things that are obviously ridiculous and wrong).

    > 8. Why does every sane person have a conscience, even when it is not dictated by society?

    Because sane social animals have brain structures encoding empathy skills that allow them to perceive and avoid situations that hurt other members of the group.

    > 9. Which came first–the chicken or the egg?

    Oh please. Which came first, the microbe or the spore? Life forms on earth evolved specialized reproductive structures very early on, shifting from one into the other or generating one from the other. The reproductive cycle has been conserved, and has become more complex, over a very long time.

    > 10. How did nothing create everything?

    There has never been “nothing” as far as we can ever know. No good evidence exists that anything has been “created”. Otherwise, see answer 1. This question is meaningless.

    Care to tell us more things that “atheists believe” or toss out more earthshakingly difficult posers?

  • Kemist

    Oh, I forgot that one

    3. What happens after death?

    Well, that’s easy. You decompose.

  • http://stripeyunderpants.blogspot.com/ silverbuttons

    Dear Seek:

    Please ask Sweet Jesus to teach you the importance of paragraphs in everyday writing.

    Also, ask him to point out to you that your beliefs make no sense and are very, very childish, akin to a five-year-old believing there are monsters in the closet. It is time you grew up, dear.

  • sumdum

    8. Why does every sane person have a conscience, even when it is not dictated by society?

    This actually doesn’t help your case. Religion is dictated by society as well. So people who have a conscience even when not dictated by society, or religion, proves you don’t need god to be good.

  • PirateStoat

    Rather than dignify Can you’s questions, I think I’ll point out why they are bad questions.

    1. It is logically inconsistent to say you disagree with the idea that something cannot exist without a cause, and offer as an alternative a thing that exists without a cause.

    2. As others have pointed out, humans don’t even have an absolute intrinsic value relative to each other. Value is conditional upon circumstance, so this question is without value.

    3. This question is disingenuous, as you are tacitly presupposing something happens after death beyond the observed biological and chemical decay processes.

    4. This is a reasonable question, actually, as it asks something about the observable world that can be confirmed or denied. The current hypothesis is that the purpose of life is to keep life going. Unless you’re not asking what the purpose of the biological process of life is. Then you need to be clearer.

    5. This question is just wrong. It’s like asking ‘why does water boil below 0 degrees Celsius at standard pressure?’ when water doesn’t do that.

    6. A decent question. This is an anthropology question, that is a question about why people do things, and has nothing to do with the relative existence of supernatural entities.

    7. A decent question, but would be better supported by a citation of a completed survey that every civilization does, indeed, believe in a creator. Another good anthropology question. It is similar to the question ‘why do people play the lottery when the odds of their winning are so astronomically low’.

    8. As another commentor pointed out, the way you have phrased this question amounts to ‘to qualify for quality y, people must have quality x, so why does everyone with quality y have quality x?’. You are questioning your own axiom.

    9. A simple biology question, with a well known answer as others have pointed out. Also, has nothing to do with the relative existence of supernatural entities.

    10. This seems to just be your first question again, somewhat reworded. Please clarify if you were looking for a different sort of answer.

  • ‘Tis Himself

    It always amazes me how theists bleat “the universe couldn’t have created itself, nothing comes from nothing” and then pretend their pet deity came from nothing. When this contradiction is pointed out, the usual response is sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting, “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”

    Theists, the reason most of us are atheists is that we see no evidence for gods. Note the plural. We not only reject your god but all the others invented by people over the centuries. Just like you don’t accept the divinity of Zeus, Vishnu, and Huitzilopotchli, we don’t either. As Stephen Roberts put it:

    I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

    There’s exactly the same amount of evidence for Odin as Jesus.

  • Di if you will

    3. What happens after death?

    My favorite answer: Remember all that stuff that happened for billions of years before you were born? It’s like that.

  • priscilla parker

    reference comment #5 (uberdoob)

    Justin, I god you, lol…

  • Hey Zeus

    What I cant understand is why believers think athiest hate so much…because we have the intelligence to reason? I am not going to get into the individual blogs presented before me…but just tell me how you have any reason to presume that athiests hate any god or anyone. Furthermore, since it may not be well known, athieism is the disbelief in a god of any kind. So, therefore it is impossible to hate something you do not believe in. Answer this, why does god hate us? If it is his word and choice for us to follow him or be sent to an afterlife in hell, is he really all that good? Any person of reason would understand where human progress was 2000-3000 years ago and why a set of rules would be needed. Just remember all ancient religions that preceded christianity were exhaustivly exterminated by christians…why would god be so jealous of other god before him? If he is the “one” why would it be written in the bible not to follow any gods before him? Food for thought.

    • Daniel Schealler

      It’s the belief that good things can only come from or be created by God.

      If love (a good thing) exists, then it must have come from God.

      If atheists remove themselves from God (their interpretation of nonbelief) then it follows that God’s grace can’t transform us into loving beings.

      Ergo, we must all be hateful.

      That’s one explanation. It differs from Christian to Christian of course exactly why (or even if) they assume all atheists are hateful.

      • Fred Bailey

        It is pretty universal among Christians who have done a bit of theology to redefine “good” and “moral” in a Christian way. The theology goes back to the early church fathers, when the church was in a largely Platonist environment, in the Greek-speaking world. The short form is, all that is good and moral proceeds from God. Only God is truly good, and anything else which reflects that good is just reflecting the goodness and morality of God. Plato’s ideal form of the good was placed within the Christian God, in other words. Daniel Schealler has it right: if love seems to be manifested here on earth, it is from God alone.

        Here’s a link with the details http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN4r62euyPI


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