Some of you may remember the atheist-bashing retired chaplain, David Druckenmiller. Days after he retired, he let me know how he really felt about me – and the looming atheist festival. He was an integral part of the event that spawned ours.
He is also a robot from outer space. Imagine Mitt Romney but with grammar lessons taken straight from YouTube comments.
By request, I’m now releasing the follow up
novel comment from Dave. He may have discovered spell-check… but you can’t fix stupid. Put on a soft glove so that your palm doesn’t leave a mark on your face.
David Druckenmiller: “I’m back!” Just returned from a long journey, which I see you gathered an audience for me! Not too many but I guess you can only gather a few individuals. I will speak to a few or to the masses. I’m not picky. Maybe you can gather more next time. (Having some fun with the fake image you created, which reflects the nature of your position – misleading others.) I would have responded earlier to your comments but I have been busy. [Long Journeys take time.] I do see that your misleading or maybe uninformed comments are still flowing.
“Long Journeys take time.” A blistering anecdote, as usual Dave! I believe the ‘fake image’ he’s referring to is this image of him preaching from his hometown, the moon.
Note: I, David Druckenmiller, do not speak for the United States Army or any of the leaders from the military community. These are my comments. I am now a concerned retired American Citizen who does not appreciate the ongoing comments of a Soldier still on active duty who is trying to influence the restriction of other Soldiers and Family members from their Constitutional rights to the “Free Exercise of their Religious Beliefs!” I furthermore do not appreciate the pursuit of an agenda that causes military staff/personnel to waste hundreds of hours of time away from their primary duties. In my opinion, this is fraud waste and abuse, which a Soldier is actively involved in. When I was on active duty, your actions and other groups that are trying to silence Christians caused me to work beyond the normal duty day – giving up my personal time. I have no problem giving up my personal time for the good ministry which Chaplains are called to do. I do have a problem when time is wasted because someone has an agenda to stop others from practicing their faith.
100% of my efforts are off-duty. I even took a month’s worth of leave (two years in a row) for the final stages. I was actually deployed when he wrote this – you know, doing ‘soldier stuff’. His team of dozens of high-ranking (highly paid) officers worked on the Rock the Fort event for nearly a year during the duty day. Yet here he is saying that I’m involved with fraud waste and abuse – criminal activity.
I have no expectation of changing your disingenuous craft of communication. However, I do believe that there are good people reading your comments and being mislead away from truth.
“Mislead away from truth.” What’s the proper way to lead people away from truth, so as to avoid misleading them?
Your pre-amble continues your folly. Oh, by the way, the creative writing, which you obviously do not understand, was a clear statement of your ownership of the result of your foolishness. Redundancy is a method of creative writing!
Word salads are salads that are made out of words, but they are not creative.
*continued below the fold – … His letter goes on and on and on… you should check out how much crazy he shoved into one rant. It’s impressive. But if it’s too long, at least skip to the very end for a fun ‘summary’… *
The shocking truth is that anyone gives you the time of day by reading your comments. Try this definition of foolishness: “when someone takes a stand and actively advocates his/her position (verbally or actively) by doing something openly before others, but the person has not gathered the facts and information to fully understand the issues which he/she comments on or takes action against.”
Ok! “Mean spirited!” Not my intent. But, I am frustrates as an American Citizen, former service member – Soldier – Chaplain, when I continue to witness the disrespect of a Soldier for his Chain of Command and his open communication for self gain and notoriety.
First of all, I love the military and I’m very loyal to my chain of command – and I’m actually well liked in my unit. I really don’t know what he’s talking about there. I also don’t see how disrespecting my chain of command would ever be a viable method for ‘self-gain’.
This is what you are doing on the internet. You are violating the DOD Directive 5410.18, which you quote. The fact is this does not apply to “Rock the Fort.” Once again, obviously you are not aware of the issues but you want to comment on the issues.
DOD Directive 5410.18 says the same thing that Joint Ethics 3-211 says. Guess where I discovered this language? In a section of the original Rock the Fort paperwork entitled “Regulations that apply to this event”.
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By the way, how much are you profiting by gaining notoriety?
Not a dime.
No church gained with “Rock the Fort.” No individual gained by “Rock the Fort.” These Christians and Christian Organizations only gave to benefit the Soldiers we serve!
Churches gained members. It was a membership drive, as with all evangelism. It’s also illegal (see above). Just in case my readers weren’t familiar, they openly bragged about it being a membership drive.
Do I want to shock your readers? If you mean bring them back to reality by speaking truth, then yes! I hope that they read and think this through. I also hope they see the hidden agenda of those who are coaching you (you too) to manipulate opinion.
It is clear to me that you have taken some facts and forced them into your mold of ideology. You do not know the process and the planning/preparations that were carefully taken by the staff, nor do you know the original concept presented to the Commander. Furthermore, you do not know the Commander’s guidance and oversight throughout the IPRs.
It appears that I did know the process. I literally used his documents (obtained via FOIA) to create the documents for our event. I’m just saying… it worked!
I do admit that in the first stages, some were zealous in the opportunity to hold a Christian Concert. (I do believe that this kind of a program should take place as often as possible on post.) The staff process was intensive and the guidance/oversight by the senior community leaders was engaged in the details. In fact, guidance was given at every stage, even in the last moments before the program began.
Rock the Fort wasn’t for Christians… it was aimed at Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists. I assure you that even if you just wanted a Christian concert for Christians, you’re inviting me to have another event. If you don’t like critical discussion of religion, then stop inviting the conversation. This is how limited public forum works (and it forms the basis of JE 3-211). If the government allows discussion on a topic, by law it must allow all viewpoints.
So, when you speak about things and you do not have the information, you cannot speak the truth. I wonder if you even came to the concert to see for yourself what an enjoyable day it was for the thousands of Soldiers and their Family members!
Thousands? I can’t find any image showing more than 70 people from the one newspaper that covered the Christian event. Here’s my favorite:
Now to the comments:
Who do you answer to? I guess, yourself. That is a scary thought indeed. (I call this “Self Theism – It certainly cannot be Non-Theism.)
I answer to the ethics of our society. I do take credit (and blame) for my actions as a functioning member of this society.
I am not a perfect individual. I do work at it. I have been married for 36 years. I married my grade school sweetheart. For you to subtly attack my motives and character is out of line.
There was nothing subtle about my thrashing of his first rant. I never mentioned his family, so I am not sure why he’s selling me his story.
It is obvious to me that you are ignorant of faith!
Religious ‘faith’ is ignorance. It requires you to ignore the laws of nature (IE supernatural) in some form or another, and substitute the universe with your own version of reality. Billy Bragg describes what kind of faith I have.
I would suggest reading the Old Testament passage in Proverbs chapter three, verses one through six. It is what a person believes and practices that develops personal reputation and character. I do hope you have a standard of accountability to which you temper your activity because your activity so far demonstrated no limit to speech and how your comments mislead.
When you stated that you respect my beliefs, you were not truthful.
He’s got me there. I don’t respect his beliefs one bit. I shouldn’t have said that. I do respect religious people, but not their beliefs. That respect stops when it is not reciprocated.
You are attacking my beliefs and the greater population of community, who believe in God. You have the right as an individual to not believe but you do not have the right to attempt to restrict the religious beliefs and practices of others.
Chaplains do not have the right to tell non-Christians that they should become Christians in their official government capacity. Rock the Fort was a disgrace.
Evangelical Christians and Traditional Christians, the majority of the population, have the right under the Constitution to believe and practice their beliefs! This fact in the Constitution, the “Free Exercise” clause, is clear. The Supreme Court in 1985 upheld that Constitutional rights of Soldiers in the military community to their “Free Exercise” opportunity by stating clearly that government cannot restrict the opportunity of the practice of their faith.
Cool. Practice away!
Government cannot make any law that restricts the individual religious free exercise of faith. Chaplains are on active duty to assist members of this community (military) to have the opportunity to practice their faith within a structured/disciplined/regimented/restrictive military community. Some rights are voluntarily restricted when a Soldier joins the military and swears to obey the leaders in authority over them and to defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic. [Such as openly speaking to the public as a Soldier! Active duty comments to the outside must go through PAO.]
He just said that I’m an enemy of the constitution because I’m not going through the Public Affairs Office (PAO). First of all, I never speak on behalf of the Army or DoD, as directed by PAO. Also, the army released guidelines encouraging soldiers to join Facebook, YouTube, and even write blogs.
Lastly, when I failed the mandatory Spiritual Fitness test, and began the mandatory remedial training… I saw this suggestion on how to improve my Spiritual Fitness!
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I stand by my comment about your misleading others! Why do you attack Christians? Christians historically have been the compassionate citizens who give more charity and help others more often than any other group.
Our group is donating nearly $5,000 worth of food to homeless veterans, despite not being able to collect canned food on post.
I know that there is history of so called Christian political outrages but I would defend the fact the Christian Believers who follow the teaching of Jesus Christ have been a voice and a touch of compassion. No other group gives charity more than Christians. No other group has had a history of coming to help the down trodden, the hungry, the poor, the suffering. Compassion is a tenet of Christian Faith!
In human history, Christians have shared compassion, built more hospitals, established educational institutions, and have led the way as advocates of human freedom, human dignity, and personal self worth/value. Tell me what a person gives to help others through their charity and I will understand their character and motivation! What are you giving to community and others?
Atheist Bill Gates has pledged to give away his fortune to charity. Heard of him?
In reference to your medicine comments, I choose to ignore.
In reference to my name, you can call me Sir. As a Sergeant, you should know how to respect a Commissioned Officer. I think you believe you wear the uniform proudly, I hope you do, but your blatant disrespect you show to leadership openly on the internet is offensive to me. I hope Senior Leaders deal with this!
Listen here, Dave… You are not a commissioned officer. You are a concerned citizen. I can call you whatever I want. FYI, ‘senior leaders’ marched me into their office to laugh at your rant.
If you defend the Constitution, then you would defend the same rights to Evangelical Christians as to all others!
Evangelicals can proselytize off-duty, and not in a government capacity. That’s fine. On duty, they need to respect their peers current religious preference. Evangelism (aka converting people to Christianity) has no place in government.
As a Chaplain and Staff Officer for the Commander, I coordinated and supported the opportunities of other faith groups at Fort Bragg. I may not agree with the tenants and practices of the person’s faith/religion, but I was an advocate to command and the staff actions officer to protect each religious right requested. So, I know how to accommodate and I have led the way in religious accommodation in several communities.
Your actions have restricted and tried to silence the opportunity of your fellow Soldiers and Family members in the Fort Bragg Community.
What actions? [Citation needed.]
I hope senior leaders will stand proud and continue to support all Soldiers and their religious beliefs.
Note: I do temper these comments by saying that the Constitution does give the right of religious practice but never gives the right to violate moral laws. No matter what a religion believes, no religious person has the right to violate moral law! (This note is not meant to imply that you are doing this. It is an observation because I think there are groups that are doing this.) For an example, the worship of Moloch, a false deity practice during a period of BC, where children were sacrificed, would not and should not be allowed!
While child sacrifice is prohibited in Leviticus and Deuteronomy… the bible is less than perfect here. Many are familiar with the story of god telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac (the plan aborted when an angel appeared at the last minute with an animal to use instead).
But take a look at Psalm 137. That’s the one that freaks me out the most. It celebrates taking delight in the bashing of babies heads. Sure, they were babies of the ‘enemy culture’, but still… This is crazy!
Next, Dave writes an entire paragraph that I agree with:
Some religious fanaticism in our day calls for enslavement and restrictions of women and children, lying to others for their religious goals, killing those who oppose their religious aggression, and forcing their ideology on others. Such actions of religious evil should never be allowed. I believe that the Constitution cover these illegal acts of a so called religious person throughout the document. But the religious faith and practice of law abiding citizens of the United States of America are cover and protected by the Constitution.
I do know that many, or maybe even most, Atheists do love America. I also defend their right not believe in God. I would not take action to limit their right not to believe. So why do some advocate restricting mine and other Christians?
How could I ever restrict anyone’s beliefs? Beliefs swirl around in a brain. I’ve never advocated brain surgery as a response to religious conviction.
In reference to my statement of your lying to your audience, I say that you are either doing this with intent or you are not aware of the facts. I hope the latter.
Reference the SCOTUS ruling: you need to remember that the government cannot promote non-religion over religion too! Works both ways!!!
DUH! That’s why we wanted equal treatment.
Finding and supporting the balance between “Free Exercise” and the “Establishment” clause is what chaplains continuously do as staff officers in their support to the commander.
The statement you make about the unprecedented instance of the US Government actively promoting the conversion of people to a particular religion (Christianity) on a massive scale is also not true. What is true is that the event allowed Christians to come together and enjoy their common faith in Christ! No one was coerced to attend. No church was allowed to proselytize.
Bullshit. No proselytizing? An event for Christians? Not targeting people for Conversion? Bullshit.This screenshot is from the Rock the Fort ‘about’ section.
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They’ve scrubbed all the videos of them bragging about converting ‘300’ and ‘100’ at previous RtF events. These videos showed soldiers rejecting their previous religion in favor of Christianity. Try to click on the links to the videos in the sidebar here.
The only remnants still online are fan-created. Like this one:
This was a CHAPLAIN/CHAPEL sponsored event approved by the commander. It was an event offered to Soldiers and Family members with no fees charged and no donations collected. It was totally free to Soldiers! People were invited (This means they were given a choice) to attend. Christians exercised their “Free Exercise” of faith!
A tenet of Christian Faith is to present the “Gospel” message for others to consider. This Gospel message is about Jesus Christ, whom we believe is Immanuel, God with us, who brings forgiveness and compassion into everyone. He is our Savior!
That tenet of your faith has no place in government. You are also a liar. Just a few sentences ago you said that you weren’t converting people to Christianity. Now you’re admitting to ‘presenting the gospel message for others to consider’. The ‘others’ you refer to must not have previously heard the ‘good news about Jesus’ yet… in other words, you are targeting non-Christians!
Your inference about – churches are everywhere – like Starbucks is true. In CONUS there are many churches around military installations. A great variety of Christian denominations provide many services and support to our Soldiers! These churches give in many ways to help our Soldiers and military community. Citizens give time and monetary support to help Soldiers! These good congregations donate their support! They did not benefit! Churches are non-profit organizations that give massive support to the military community!!! They also offer a welcoming hand to others!
Once again, your quote of DOD policy and the Joint Ethics to spin your premise of this event as a church membership drive is not true. Through the process of good staff actions which were continuous, intensive, and command directed, this event, as it became, was not as you keep trying to portray it! This was a command sponsored event that was chaplain organized/staffed and executed for Soldiers and Family members.
It was not a local church, non-military, event. The chapel organizations and chaplain staff followed command guidance. This was a chapel service. Christian organizations volunteered support to bless our military community and our Soldiers. There was no inference of profit. There were no donations taken during this event and no organization was allowed to profit! I was the one who walked continuously between every both set up to make sure that this was not being done. Those from off post were briefed several times about what was allowed and what was not allowed.
Dave is hiding the fact that they took donations at every chapel on post for several weeks to pay for this event.
Anyway… the rest of this nonsense was already addressed in my original reply over a year ago. He’s practicing that ‘creative writing technique’ of repetition, to a staggering degree. I’d advise you skip to the very end, if you haven’t already.
What we did allow was local churches to share what free services and support is offered by the organization that would benefit Soldiers and Families. [The majority of Soldiers do attend churches off post.]
Just prior to the concept and staffing of this event, the command was encouraged at higher levels to network with local community organization in areas that help Soldiers!
From the concept to the event, the staffing process developed a program that provided a wonderful experience for all who attended: Good Christian music and fun activities for Families = Soldiers, children, and all individuals. All of it given with no profit taken. (The vendors with food and drink may have profited but this was through MWR support, as any other event would be supported.)
I do admit that we have learned from this program and the after action report lists some observation, such as the disclaimer on brochures. However, this disclaimer was repeated verbally many times and it was spoken as the event began.
I do disagree with you! You are right about those forces that work violence against our people. But, there are also individuals that actively try to influence changes to the Constitution. So enemies are more than just the violent! There are enemies that manipulate opinion against clearly stated Constitutional rights of citizens.
Your reference to similar treatment based upon the DOD Directive you quote seems to imply you are not being offered the same. The fact is that you were offered the same by command. One of the primary issues I have with you is that you think that the Chaplain Tithes and Offering money given by Christians should somehow be used to support your event, Rock Beyond Belief. This would be a violation of policy.
I understand that the commander offered you the same treatment of your event as the Evangelical program, which meant you needed to raise money. All the support elements provided to the “Rock the Fort” program would be provided at the scale of your planning and ability to raise the money needed. Once again, all money for this program came from Christian donations through the chapels and from one Christian organization on the outside that did not ask for any benefit. This organization freely gave to support this chapel lead event!
You say that you have no problems if others are not targeted away from their religion or non-religion. To me, this is not honest. Who is the “we” in your statement? Sounds like your comments are larger than yourself and represent an outside agenda. I remind you I am retired now and I am on the outside! You are still a Soldier. Who are you working with, or maybe, who are you working for? Just an honest observation. I hope I am wrong in this but I think I am not.
The Federal Laws in the work place signed by then President Clinton clearly allowed a federal employee the right to share their faith with others. You do not place your faith that tempers your world view on hold during the day at work and then only bring it out after hours because of the Constitution! You are allowed to live your faith as a citizen! You are even allowed to speak freely and openly about your faith. The guidance is that when someone else asks you to not share with them, you should stop. I am allowed to intellectually share my faith as a citizen and your attempt to silence this is an act that violates my right to speak and practice my faith.
SWING AND HIT! Obviously you do want the government to restrict my free exercise of faith. I do not appreciate this kind of activism against our Soldiers who serve proudly, who are of a majority in the military population. These men and women in uniform do have the right to live and practice their faith. The organizations that constantly try to restrict individual rights, in my opinion, are going against the Constitution. These organizations have an agenda to change what our founders established!
My time as a chaplain, when on active duty, was to be a staff officer to the commander. I was endorsed by my church/denomination to be the representative of the specific faith! At no time was I ever asked to compromise what I believed, nor should I be asked to become someone that my denomination did not endorse.
If you want equality you should be pursuing your “Mash Meetup” as a private organization on post. To redefine religion to be a set of beliefs without a divine presence is not based upon a historical understanding of religion. The only reason the “No Religious Preference” is listed is not to claim them as a religious group but to allow opportunity for a Soldier to not share what, or if, he/she has a religion. I have followed up with an ADHOC report in the past and discovered that many of them just do not want to share this information. Some sated that their faith was private to them. I can accept that. Not many atheists were noted at that time. So your leaky bucket is almost empty!
As far as your event, I do not oppose. I agree with the commander that the same support be offered to your group. Just do not expect the chapel money given by the Christian chapel attendees be used for your program. Even if you we allowed to become a religiously recognized group, distinctive faith group, only the money you raise from your donations under the CTOF should be used out of the fund. Money placed into the community chaplain fund should only be used at the percentage given into the fund. I personnaly hope this does not happen.
As far as your family goes, I am confident that the same support and compassion is provided. I have no doubt that many who do not believe in God are good people and good citizens! I wonder how many want to be considered a religious group.
Even though I do not support your attempt to become a religious group, I do hope that you are allowed to be a private organization that is allowed to meet. I also encourage you to rememberf that you are still wearingt the uniform.
Concerned American Citizen,
Seriously. I could have just borrowed from Pitchfork, and simply used this as a basic summary of that drivel: