Dragged into the slimepit

This is me:

Not this:

That Being Said…

I don’t know what the fuck is going on in the freethought blogosphere and I am being dragged into it. Now, I understand that my co-blogger posted some blogs about the slimepit. After this happened and I got dragged into it I had to call Justin and ask him

  1. What is the slimepit?
  2. Who is Abbie Smith?
  3. What the fuck is this all about?

He informed me that the slimepit was where a group of misogynistic assholes hang out on the internet that participate in outright douchebaggery whenever Abbie Smith (who he informed me is a prominent blogger) posts a blog. Basically they’re a bunch of sexist dirtbags that utilize the anonymity of the internet in order to verbally assault women and tear them down without fear of repercussion.

Okay. Now I see where this whole thing started. I’ll be honest with you–I did not read Justin’s first blog about the slimepit. I attempted to but couldn’t wade through it and it lost my interest. I’m really busy right now conducting training and working through a bunch of exercises in and out of the field so I don’t get the luxury to make time for this as much as I would like…that includes reading other people’s blogs.

What’s this got to do with me?

Honestly, nothing. But one of my posts got picked up over at Pharyngula and a paragraph was posted from my last blog.

That guy really isn’t getting it.

So when people come across me and try to convince me to become a humanist or to play nice I just can’t get down with it. Not that it’s not effective in its own way but I’m the guy that nicknames people “Fuck you”…literally. I nicknamed one of my Marines that. Why would I be nicer to people I don’t like when that’s how I talk to a guy I do like?

We’re not asking anyone to be nicer to people you don’t like. I am not nice to people I don’t like, as I think has always been obvious.

We’re asking, “why are you putting all women in the category of ‘people I don’t like’?”

Right. I got it. My post was picked because I write on the same blog as Justin and he brought up the whole slimepit debacle. I can overlook that. Shit happens. And then I went on to read further comments relating to that.

 

QFT. “I nicknamed one of my Marines that.” Fucking gross. I’d beg or steal before I worked a job where my boss treated me like that. All that talk about honor and they’re just a bunch of fucking frat boys. Guys that that will watch full metal jacket and cheer when Vincent D’Onofrio gets beaten by his fellow recruits, then laugh he he blows his brains out.

There’s an interesting comment on that thread at #9. I think this excerpt is a quite revealing look into the psychology over there:

mealy-mouthed puffy weak-kneed cowardly civilians

And this:

All that talk about honor and they’re just a bunch of fucking frat boys. Guys that that will watch full metal jacket and cheer when Vincent D’Onofrio gets beaten by his fellow recruits, then laugh he he blows his brains out.

Yep, that’s pretty much it. One of many reasons why I hate Marines.

This I have a problem with. I know many, many people who hate Marines and probably for good reasons. That I’m fine with. The perception that Marines are bullies to other Marines really pisses me off.

Let me reiterate that the guy who I talk to like that IS MY FRIEND! Here’s a text I sent him the morning I posted the blog:

He laughs at me every time I call him that and it’s a joke. Maybe you don’t understand and you probably don’t but it’s a cultural thing. You might be exclaiming how I’m wrong and how it’s still wrong and it’s not cultural and I’m still just an asshole and I treat the people I work with wrong.

Well no one is saying you can’t think that way. You can but I can assure you every Marine I know would say you’re wrong.

Just like back home if you call someone “Sir” or “Ma’am” it’s a fucking insult. You might never think that possible but the day I graduated boot camp I called my father “Sir”. He jokingly slapped me across the back of my head and said to never call him that again. I was to refer to him as “Papa” or “Pa”.

It might not make sense to you and I might have a bunch of dissenting remarks in the comments but I’m gonna defend the culture that I live in not because yours is wrong and mine is right but because they are different. We don’t have to agree. That’s fine. How boring a world would that be if we agreed on everything. But you’re dead wrong on how I treat my Marines!

So please leave me out of the slimepit. I’m not a part of it and don’t want to be. If you’re confused with who’s posting on here I always sign my name at the bottom of my blogs (plus there’s that nifty little “author” symbol at the top of every post).

 That should cover it but there’s more…

I’m not trying to pick a fight because quite frankly I think it’s a stupid fight. I haven’t been involved in the atheist community for very long and I’m really not aware of the infighting but it’s there. I’m sure it’s in every group of people that have tried to form a coalition for the cause of progressivism and in this instance for a secular community.

Well, someone is already trying to drag some mud into it and are starting “Atheists Against Freethoughtblogs” groups. Of course I think that is foolish…

I’m just the new guy here. I’ve only been blogging for a few months so you can all feel free to disregard me but I think I have some valid points.

Other points

If we’re on the subject of misogyny and sexism (since apparently that is what the slimepit consists of) I think it is an important issue in the military. And since I’m a progressive guy and I happen to think that women’s rights are very important I’ll bring up my issues with women’s rights in the military.

  • In 2010 there were 3,158 sexual assaults reported in the U.S. Military
  • That comprised less than 15% of ACTUAL assaults
  • The real number is close to 19,000 (or so it is assumed–I honestly think it’s even higher)
  • Only 529 cases went to trial

The biggest problem with sexual assault in the military is the overlying misogynistic view that “she had it coming” or “she was flirting” or “she changed her mind”. If someone joins the military and they are a sexual predator well then they’ve probably found a good home, sadly. If they rape someone there is an 92% chance they will get away with it and never even get reported. If they get reported and taken to court martial there is a 85% chance they will get off.

And it gets worse. These women once they report are seen as vindictive, victimized again, turned into a joke, lose their careers, are diagnosed with mental diseases, and the men are praised and applauded. Here’s a documentary expressing that:

www.youtube.com/embed/1ifc_ongQFQ

The problem goes beyond just women. There are men that are raped in the military too. The only difference is that they aren’t willing to even report it. It somehow destroys their masculinity to admit it.

So while we can argue on the internet all we want and accomplish nothing let’s do something about this pervasive problem that is a serious issue. Because it’s not just in the atheist community or the military community. It’s all around us. We’ve just been ignoring it because a keyboard is easier to get access to.

I’m done wading in the slimepit

Look, I’ve never really been over to ERV so I don’t know what it’s like over there. I’ve been told there’s no censorship and so commenters just go full steam ahead without fear of repercussion because of the safety of anonymity. Gutless cowardice is what I’d call that…but W/E…

I’m out

-Paul Loebe

About Paul Loebe
  • ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ

    Hm. What are the chances dude who said “I hate Marines” is/was in another branch of the armed forces?

  • Wha Happenin?

    Look, I’ve never really been over to ERV so I don’t know what it’s like over there. I’ve been told there’s no censorship and so commenters just go full steam ahead without fear of repercussion because of the safety of anonymity. Gutless cowardice is what I’d call that

    Not everyone posting at ERV is anonymous. You’d know that if you had actually gone over there rather than take someone’s word for it.

    Your wise to stay out of it. Fail to toe the party line here and a horde of anonymous porcupine wielders would be after you.

    • Paul Loebe

      I realize not everyone is anonymous. There is a certain anonymity on the internet, however.

  • johngreg

    “Look, I’ve never really been over to ERV so I don’t know what it’s like over there. I’ve been told there’s no censorship and so commenters just go full steam ahead without fear of repercussion because of the safety of anonymity. Gutless cowardice is what I’d call that…but W/E…”

    Well, your description of the slimepit, and I presume it is based Jason’s description of us to you, is quite false.

    All, with only on or two exceptions, of the the people who posted at ERV’s so-called slimepit support feminism (though, not the semi-radfeminism proselytized by most of the FfTB blog hosts and commenters), or general humanists. We are not, despite the ludicrous hyterical rhetoric coming out of most of the FfTB blogs, raving misogynists.

    As for censorhip and moderation, yes, that’s right, there was none at all. We promote and practice real freedom of speech, unlike most of the FfTB blog hosts, who moderate, censor, edit, delete, and ban on an almost daily basis anything they are uncomfortable with, or that goes against the general over-arching FfTB ideology.

    Nonetheless, many of the commeneters (I have no idea what percenage, but probably about half), including some of the more outrageously outspoken commenters, actually post using their own real-world names.

    Now, of course you are fully entitled to your opinion, but at least try to base it on your own experience rather than word-of-mouth and hearsay. To just rely on someone els’e’s inflated angry misrepresentations, and then to continue the slander, is really preposterous.

    • Paul Loebe

      I’ve never been to ERV or any blog except my own actually so thank you for the clarification. I am aware that some people will create multiple accounts and post whatever they please under a pseudoname because there will be no backlash. It’s not always the case but it happens.

  • ‘Tis Himself

    I was never in the Marines so I don’t know the cultural milieu but I spent six years in the Navy. If one of my superiors nicknamed me “fuck you” or anything similar I’d be talking to his superior pretty damn quick. Respect goes both ways and as long as I was doing my job (which I must have been, considering I made E6 and got a NAM as a going away present) then I’d expect my superiors to treat me with respect. I wouldn’t happy if some asshole decided to give me an obscene, insulting nickname just for grins and giggles.

    But that’s just me.

    • Paul Loebe

      Again. It’s not a slam on him. Thanks!

  • Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy

    Thanks for the clarification, Paul.

  • http://florilegia.wordpress.com Ibis3, denizen of a spiteful ghetto

    Okay, Paul. You’re the new guy and some slack must be given, but really, it’s a good idea to familiarise yourself with where you are before you go off half-cocked. To wit:

    So while we can argue on the internet all we want and accomplish nothing let’s do something about this pervasive problem that is a serious issue. Because it’s not just in the atheist community or the military community. It’s all around us. We’ve just been ignoring it because a keyboard is easier to get access to.

    Do you have any idea how insulting it is to assert or assume that

    a)Using our voices accomplishes nothing

    b)People here don’t know that the sexism problem is pervasive and serious

    c)That we’re not involved in other action/activism (aside from the keyboard variety that is)

    If you’ve been ignoring it, speak for yourself, not for us, thanks.

    p.s. The “slimepit” is the home of the misogynists (formerly ERV), not Pharyngula.

    • Paul Loebe

      Thank you. I was aware that ERV was where the slimepit was. I only referenced Pharyngula because I got slammed in there.

      I also wasn’t insinuating that using your voice accomplishes nothing. Using your voice without action accomplishes nothing. I shall attempt to clarify that next time.

  • ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ

    First post is still in moderation, but I want to add this:

    It does look to me like PZ got the mistaken impression that your post was in any way related to the discussion about sexism/pitizens, because it happened to post next after a post by Justin.

    I don’t think it’s fair that your disdain for “humanism” was assumed to mean that you’re actually against the basic idea of promoting humanity — considering that Pharyngula commenters have voiced similar displeasure with “humanism” in the past, or at least with “Humanism”, and especially the “Harvard Humanists”.

    So yeah, I think PZ made an error, and it’s understandable that you’re bothered by it. Considering the context you intended, your sentiments are recognizably like those common at Pharyngula.

    OT: I’m a humanist and I’m one of the rudest people at Pharyngula, so I confess I don’t see the contradiction some claim to see. I honestly don’t know how people look at the Humanist manifestos and disagree with them.

  • smhll

    Many of the people who speak at length about their own rough language, and justifying it, are strenuously justifying their use of the word “cunt”. So, some inferences about you may have been drawn from your post too hastily. But I will ask you to listen and see how many of your equally rough speaking friends can go for an hour without saying that word. (And when their mom is in the room doesn’t count.)

    Thanks for blogging about the issue of military rape. I have a distant friend who was raped by her escort coming back from night duty. She reported and he claimed it was consensual. No prosecution. I hope he gets some consequences before the number of reports gets to like 5 or 6. This stuff makes me want to scream.

  • http://saltycurrent.blogspot.com SC (Salty Current), OM

    He laughs at me every time I call him that and it’s a joke. Maybe you don’t understand and you probably don’t but it’s a cultural thing. You might be exclaiming how I’m wrong and how it’s still wrong and it’s not cultural and I’m still just an asshole and I treat the people I work with wrong.

    Well no one is saying you can’t think that way. You can but I can assure you every Marine I know would say you’re wrong.

    I didn’t read your original post, but just going from the quotes…

    I think the root of the misunderstanding is in that you phrased it – then and now – as “I nicknamed one of my Marines that.” This gives the impression that you’re talking about a very unequal power relationship, in which you can gratuitously name a person something and they’re unable, because in a subordinate position, to object. You’re saying now that it’s (more of?) an equal relationship, and that’s different. But the “my Marines” language does lend itself to the reading it got.

    If we’re on the subject of misogyny and sexism (since apparently that is what the slimepit consists of) I think it is an important issue in the military. And since I’m a progressive guy and I happen to think that women’s rights are very important I’ll bring up my issues with women’s rights in the military.

    …The biggest problem with sexual assault in the military is the overlying misogynistic view that “she had it coming” or “she was flirting” or “she changed her mind”.

    …So while we can argue on the internet all we want and accomplish nothing let’s do something about this pervasive problem that is a serious issue. Because it’s not just in the atheist community or the military community. It’s all around us. We’ve just been ignoring it because a keyboard is easier to get access to.

    Don’t do this. It is an important issue in the military, and sexual assault is one very major part of that. But you acknowledge that sexual assault and the responses to it stem from a sexist/misogynistic culture both in the military and beyond. This means that women trying to push back against this culture is always part of this struggle. We aren’t going to, and you shouldn’t ask us to, focus on the problem you see as most pressing or the venue you think is most effective. I’m thrilled to see men in the military taking up this issue, but not if it’s going to be used as a cudgel to silence women who are talking about other experiences or aspects of the culture. The issues with women’s rights in the military and beyond aren’t whatever you think they are – they’re whatever women think they are. Don’t do a military “Dear Muslima.”

    If a woman in the military posted about her experiences with sexual assault or any other aspect of sexist-misogynistic culture and received the sort of abusive response that women in the atheist-skeptic community have faced for the past year, and she responded, and it turned into a storm, a very bad response would be to tell her that she’s wrong to be engaged in internet bickering.

    Misogynistic culture is all of a piece: from violent acts to discriminatory institutions to everyday microaggressions to cluelessness about male privilege to unconscious attitudes. All of it is worthwhile and important for women and our allies to talk about and challenge, in the military and outside it, online and wherever.

    …Uh, other than that, I really liked this post.

    • Paul Loebe

      I’m not sure what I did wrong in addressing the military culture. Misogyny is very big in the military culture. Sorry to break it to you but that is a fact. Women are looked down upon.

      And women who have come out in the military have faced pretty horrendous things. So it’s not like they have it any better than women in the atheist community. I don’t know much about the atheist community or what they have gone through but I can tell you in the military until the last few months they have been ignored, laughed at, raped or assaulted again, threatened, and kicked out of the military with a less than honorable discharge. That is a shame!

      Thanks for your response.

  • http://saltycurrent.blogspot.com SC (Salty Current), OM

    Using your voice without action accomplishes nothing.

    Using your voice is action.

    I’m not sure what I did wrong in addressing the military culture. Misogyny is very big in the military culture. Sorry to break it to you but that is a fact. Women are looked down upon.

    And women who have come out in the military have faced pretty horrendous things. So it’s not like they have it any better than women in the atheist community. I don’t know much about the atheist community or what they have gone through but I can tell you in the military until the last few months they have been ignored, laughed at, raped or assaulted again, threatened, and kicked out of the military with a less than honorable discharge. That is a shame!

    If this was a response to my comment, please read it again. You’re extremely confused.

    (By the way, you already have a couple of the ERVites on this thread. They will turn it into a pit outpost if left to their own devices.)

  • Paul Loebe

    Thanks for the warning. I’m not declaring a war on ERV. I’m saying I want no part of it. Leave me out of it.

  • http://saltycurrent.blogspot.com SC (Salty Current), OM

    Good luck.

  • Paul Loebe

    @ ixchel

    I’m not anti-humanism by any means. I think that it is an unnecessary stance to take, however. If one does not hold to the basis that we have a responsibility to help those around us then I don’t like that person or their ideology.

    I just don’t make it my main focus. It’s just a way of life.

  • MC

    Paul,

    I think SC makes a good point with the problem some people had with the nickname you call your bud. And you were very correct, it is very much a cultural thing. Perhaps a couple of the biggest culture roadblocks being the fact that relationships in the line of duty and off duty can be seamlessly transitioned between and that profanity can be used in a truly endearing manner are going to seem very strange to the uninitiated. With that said, I think a key take away would be to remember who your audience is when you post an entry. I think you and Justin both erred in that respect, and while I can truly sympathize with why it happened, I really believe it will be important for the success of the blog. Please don’t read this as advice to censor your opinions (contrary to some of the commenters, as a daily reader of FTB, if there is a “a mind hive,” the queen is obviously asleep), but just be conscious of who you’re expressing them to and how you express them. I think it is very important that the challenges military free thinkers face get out to the general public and I am thankful that you and Justin are doing just that (I wish you were around during my active duty days).

  • Paul Loebe

    MC

    Thanks! I’m still learning.

  • Anon

    Damn, it’s getting pretty hard to post a blog around here without writing something that can be construed as offensive to someone in one way or another. I guess it’s all part of the learning curve haha.

    I enjoyed the read. Good luck with not getting sucked in to the black hole with this blog post though; you merely have to mention the debate to be dragged in to it.

  • julian

    What are the chances dude who said “I hate Marines” is/was in another branch of the armed forces?

    1 in 1.

  • Paul Loebe

    @Anon

    Thanks. Like I said I’m not intentionally bashing anyone. I realize not everyone in the slimepit is anonymous and not all of them are sexist. I know people might be offended by some of what I said. I just want no part of it. I think we need to agree to disagree and move on. To nerd it up:

    As Grand Moff Tarkin said “This bickering is pointless.”

    @julian

    LOL

  • mythbri

    Just to clarify for some of the commentors in this thread: the quotes that appear in Paul’s post are quotes from commentors at Pharyngula, not from PZ Myers.

    Paul, I’m sorry that you were drawn into the discussion against your will. I think that people may have looked at your post about the nickname and added it to the conversation because this conversation is, and has been, about language (and how they affect and reinforce attitudes). Also, I agree with SC that using your voice is an action – and it’s an important one. If you care enough about something that you would devote your time and money to it, you’d better care enough to devote your voice to it as well – on every front.

  • Paul Loebe

    Yes those were commenters at Pharyngula and not the blog itself.

    Additionally talking is not always action. The phrase “talk is cheap” comes to mind. If you yell at a brick wall or “preach to the choir” and do nothing then your talk means nothing. It’s only the actions that result from your talking that make the difference. Politicians “talk” about changing things all the time but how often is the status quo kept?

    I talk about putting on a concert for foxhole atheists but what is more important is all the work I am doing behind the scenes to make that happen. Talk means nothing without action.

  • ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ

    mythbri,

    Just to clarify for some of the commentors in this thread: the quotes that appear in Paul’s post are quotes from commentors at Pharyngula, not from PZ Myers.

    Not this one:

    That guy really isn’t getting it.

    So when people come across me and try to convince me to become a humanist or to play nice I just can’t get down with it. Not that it’s not effective in its own way but I’m the guy that nicknames people “Fuck you”…literally. I nicknamed one of my Marines that. Why would I be nicer to people I don’t like when that’s how I talk to a guy I do like?

    We’re not asking anyone to be nicer to people you don’t like. I am not nice to people I don’t like, as I think has always been obvious.

    We’re asking, “why are you putting all women in the category of ‘people I don’t like’?”

    That one’s (a comment) from PZ. That’s why I said it looks like “PZ got the mistaken impression that your post was in any way related to the discussion about sexism/pitizens”.

    Not much more to say about that. PZ erred, Paul here wanted it understood that his post about American Atheists wasn’t related to the discussions of sexism that’d been going on. Makes sense to me.

  • johngreg

    Salty Current said:

    By the way, you already have a couple of the ERVites on this thread. They will turn it into a pit outpost if left to their own devices.”

    Now, if one prefers truth to bombast, one only need look to Justin Griffths’ posts discussing the erstwhile ERV slimepit — that is, those that still have comments visible. It is quite clear on those threads that the majority of angry hostility, hard-edged accusations, insults, and invective in fact came from FfTB regulars, not the former Slimepit Denizens™.

    As has been pointed out to you Paul, one of the more important characteristics of the erstwhile ERV endless threads, was the open discussion, the lack of censorship — in particular, the lack of censorship or limitation of discussion or opinion due to ideological or philosophical differences.

    The former Slimepit Denizens™ even invited FfTB blog hosts and commenters to join in the discussion. Very few accepted, perhaps because they knew they would not have control over the direction of the discussion.

    However, that is off-topic to your original post. This has not been an attempt to derail your thread, it is only a small piece of self-defence against slander and false accusation.

    Anyway, back on topic. You are comlpetely in the right to not want to be tarred with the patented FfTB anti-ERV brush and feather brigade.

    It is a typical response from the FC5 (PZ Myers, Jason Thibeault, Stephanie Zvan, Ophelia Benson, Greta Christina) and their supporters to damn by association even if you have no play in that association, by which I mean, even if the only comments posted to your, or Justin’s, posts were polite, supportive, friendly comments, had they come from anyone who also posts on the former ERV slimepit blog, then the FC5 would damn you for allowing such freedom of expression, and condemn you to the FfTB pits of whatever is hell for today.

    That is perhaps one of the primary challenges you face: not being inundated with posters who post things you do not like, but being condemned by your associates for allowing people they do not like for posting on your blog (and it matters not what the comment content is), and therefore dragging you into something you don’t want, as you comment in your post up yonder and above.

    One more small bit of self-defence, if I may. If you did a search, you would find that, in point of fact, the Abominable Phrase, and the World’s Worst Magic Word, appear far, far more frequently on FfTB than they do on the erstwhile ERV slimepit. And that, as they say, is a fact; not opinion; not supposition; not claim; a simple fact.

    Lastly, I have a question for you. What, in your estimation, is the precentage of what you call “foxhole atheists” in the US military?

    • Paul Loebe

      I’ve no knowledge on the level of animosity in either FTB or ERV.

      As for my estimation of foxhole atheists…officially it stands at around 25%. In actuality I’d put it closer to 50%. Too many people fear coming out because of hurting their families. My own platoon is just under 50% (more have come forward to me since that initial post)but they won’t do so publicly for fear of hurting their mothers, fathers, and spouses.

  • johngreg

    “As for my estimation of foxhole atheists…officially it stands at around 25%. In actuality I’d put it closer to 50%.”

    I think that given the current religious temperature, so to speak, of the US in general that is an impressive percentage. Congratulations all around.

  • Paul Loebe

    The military has always moved faster at breaking stigmas and being accepting of the changing culture in general. Clearly that’s not always the case, but in quite a few instances.

  • mythbri

    Paul, based on your own post about the way that female service-members are treated, I would have to disagree with you.

  • Kavin Watson

    Yutt, yutt, yutt. Another day in the Corps, what can you do right? It’s difficult for people on the outside to understand Marine culture. All the hate talk is just dirt off my shoulder.

  • ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ

    One more small bit of self-defence, if I may. If you did a search, you would find that, in point of fact, the Abominable Phrase, and the World’s Worst Magic Word, appear far, far more frequently on FfTB than they do on the erstwhile ERV slimepit. And that, as they say, is a fact; not opinion; not supposition; not claim; a simple fact.

    Highly unlikely; grep counts 723 instances of the c-word just in the last thread of the slimepit (“the periodic table of swearing”). At 10590 comments, that’s an average of about 1 for every 15 comments.

    Point to any thread on Pharyngula with a higher rate, if you can — and if you can I guarantee it’ll be because someone called someone that, and others started explaining why it’s not acceptable as a descriptor for a person.

  • johngreg

    In reply to ixchel, the …, I am basing my claim on the following (add your own http stuff):

    … oi48.tinypic.com/34zyl1h.jpg

    If I am wrong, I am more than willing to accept that fact.

    However, although I do not have stats to hand to prove it, I am pretty certain the Abominable Phrase has been said by Ophelia Umbridge far, far more than it has at ERV.

    You might note that Ophelia actually took account of that, and therefore changed her wording of the phrase to “kick in the crotch” or “kick in the genitals”.

    Again, if I can be proven wrong, I will certainly accept that. I am more than willing to play fair. Which is something that, in my experience, can most definitely not be said for the FC5 and the FfTB commentariat.

    By-the-by, what is “grep”? I am unfamiliar with that acronym.

  • ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ

    Maybe it would help if you’d try to explain just what you think your google searches are measuring, and why you think that measurement is somehow relevant to whatever it is you think you’re discussing.

    It is no revelation that there are a relatively small number of threads on Sb which contain that word. Relatively few of the threads on Sb are about challenging sexism. I notice, though, that the first result on Sb is «XMRV and chronic fatigue syndrome: PI FAIL – erv» wherein the blogger Abbie Smith calls Judy Mikovits such.

    First result on FtB is «The “Justifications for Saying ‘C[***]‘” bingo card | Blag Hag», which is a challenge to the fairly common practice of applying the word to people. Since it is a fairly common practice, and many of us here at FtB want to make it less common, we talk about why it’s not cool.

    Your whole argument, such as it is, seems to be premised on the notion that a lot of people at FtB object to “using the word”, full stop.

    We don’t.

    I object to using it to refer to a person, using it in a derogatory manner, using it to refer to the genitalia of a woman who has not told you to refer to her genitalia that way, using it in a way which implies inferiority, and claiming the word doesn’t mean what it means. The threads I know of on FtB are either about the usage of the word, or they’re threads in which some troll used the word to refer to a person and then other people responded explaining why that’s not cool.

    However, although I do not have stats to hand to prove it, I am pretty certain the Abominable Phrase has been said by Ophelia far, far more than it has at ERV.

    Assuming this is true, what do you think you’re saying? She brings it up to make the point that there’s something wrong with a society in which someone says this to a woman. She brings it up to remind people that yes this kind of social problem still exists; it’s not something we left behind in the 70s.

    You might note that Ophelia actually took account of that, and therefore changed her wording of the phrase to “kick in the crotch” or “kick in the genitals”.

    Assuming this is true, what do you think you’re saying? I don’t read B&W; did you care to look up her reasoning? Suppose perhaps she got tired of the phrase itself because it’s too evocative and unpleasant for indefinite repetition? What do you think you’re telling me here?

    grep? google it.

  • Za-zen

    Military culture is impossible for civilians to understand. Does that make it right? No. But civilians dont get asked to go and blow people to bits, see their buddies get blown to bits, run the risk of getting blown to bits, and do it day in day out.

    The culture promotes a “fuck it bring the pain mentality” that enables people to wade through the shit nd get the job done. The culture is actively promoted from on high, because on high understand it is required, despite whatever pc crap they spout to camera.

    I wasn’t US military, so i know very little about the difficulties US female service people face. I was in in the mid nineties, my unit was all male, females weren’t permitted, and the long and short of it is inclusion of females into my type of unit would have been a major clusterfuck. The only females we saw was whilst we were on leave, or if you were lucky enough to get fucked up for a bit, the nurses in the nearest military hospital…. And that’s it.

  • KiwiInOz
  • ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ

    My comment of July 9, 2012 at 3:33 am is still stuck in moderation.

  • ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ

    Ah. Thanks for checking the moderation queue! :)

    (Now I know this adds one more to the queue, but I still wanted to say thanks.)

  • KiwiInOz

    A view from an old soldier on abuse in the Australian military – http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/military-violence-is-it-any-surprise-20120711-21w78.html


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