No really, THAT was utterly shameful writing.

Lousy Canuck has another post with extreme histrionics. It’s so weird because I really liked the beginning. He was describing his awkward upbringing, and I found myself totally relating. Obviously he went down a different path and chose the comic books and video games route. As for me, the Army pretty much saved my life. But I had to stop reading midway through and react.

I stopped at this bit.

Lousy Canuck wrote:

what the shitI saw Justin Griffith step up to tell everyone that the members of Team Douchebag were just misunderstood, and that they were using 4Chan humour to get lolz — never mind that said lolz were at someone else’s expense, we saw that, we understood the culture and the jokes and the lolz, and that’s what we objected to. If we’re talking about stopping bullies, the focus shouldn’t be on what VICTIMS can do better (including ignoring the “for the lolz” crowd that makes up the majority of these bullies).

What!?

I never said that the slimepit was “just misunderstood”.

I never said the 4chan tactics that some of the members use were defensible.

I never said you should just ignore gendered slurs.

Here are direct quotes from my original post:

  1. “First off, let me say that I agree that people shouldn’t use gendered slurs.”
  2. “If you comment at a place where you know such language isn’t welcome, you’re way out of line to use it.”
  3. “If you’re directly contacting a person known to dislike this language, and you use this language, you’re wrong.”
  4. “Abbie is funny, but I think she is unaware of the socially irresponsible applications of that style of humor when she commands an audience that large.”
  5. “I like PZ a lot, but that’s pretty funny. I’m against idol-worship, autograph seeking, so I appreciated ‘PeeZus’. …But I don’t like the ‘Rebitchka Twatkins’ gender based slurs.”
  6. “This language [gendered slurs] does have a place [Carlin, Sonic Youth, etc.]. The ‘greater’ atheist blogosphere is simply not one of those places.”
  7. “Our particular corner of the internet should probably be run more like this: if you wouldn’t say it to that person in real life face to face, don’t say it on their blog/twitter/facebook.”

What the shit is wrong with you? That post always included those statements. Use your modly powers if you’re suspicious. The only edit I was requested to make was to lower the font size of 4 words: “I support Abbie Smith – I don’t support everything she says or does.”

That was my high crime that generated those threats. It was because Greg Laden only read those four words and then kicked up a shit storm by people who didn’t yet see him for what he was. Stop pretending that I launched some sort of “I luv 4chan and you guise just don’t get teh lulz!” You’re lying. You really are living in that other universe, aren’t you?

It was a naive plea for peace. It didn’t work. Who cares.

On top of all of that, there is absolutely no reason Greg Laden should issue violent threats. I too “won’t be a model victim”. I won’t just “get over it“.

greg ladens violent threats, ill drink to that

Note: I stomached one further paragraph before going to bed. It referenced Laden’s outright attempts at triggering PTSD. This is incredibly offensive:

And Greg’s “Patton Slap” went over the line in a lot of ways — warning that these people would try to trigger Justin’s PTSD was, in a way, just another trigger, even if Greg didn’t intend it that way, since intention isn’t magic. It’s the same reason you scream “trigger warning” before a post containing these potential triggers — you don’t want to accidentally hurt someone you’re not intending to.

I don’t think I’d have sent that letter. I might have thought about it, I might even have DONE it, but I do try not to say things in anger as much as possible because that anger tends to undercut what you’re trying to do.

Wow… I can’t believe this Patton slap explanation! I mean I can believe it coming from Greg “can’t spell the title of his own book correctly” Laden.

From you, though? I’m shocked. Do you think Greg Laden is capable of giving militaristic advice to an actual soldier? Do you think you are qualified to judge the quality of militaristic advice? Seriously, what is going on here? Is this level of fail on purpose, like for an ironic hipster documentary?

If somebody gets threatened with violence, or has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Lousy Canuck thinks it is a good idea to give them a Patton Slap!

This is all you really need to know about advising me with my PTSD asshole

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About Justin Griffith
  • http://slymepit.com/ Lsuoma

    FFS, Justin

    Get off the fence – this place (FfTB) is abusing you and is toxic. Go to a better blogging network. Thibedydoodah, Black Swan and the rest are not good for Justin, IMHO.

    Make the break – you’ll be much better for it…

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      I understand the sentiment, Lsuoma. It doesn’t feel like last time. I don’t see 38 people piling on this time. I see 2 bloggers defending their indefensible pal. It doesn’t seem to be going as well as they hoped. They are used to hearing a lot more sabers rattling when they blow the bugle.

  • http://slymepit.com/ Lsuoma

    I see 2 bloggers defending their indefensible pal. It doesn’t seem to be going as well as they hoped. They are used to hearing a lot more sabers rattling when they blow the bugle.

    IMHO, it doesn’t matter how many sabres there are – if they’re pointed in the wrong direction.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      Agreed. The fence is getting uncomfortable too. Too much oolon feces all over the place (he sits and spins on the posts).

  • see_the_galaxy

    All of you need to quit this stupid fight. No one cares about this. There are dangerous fundamentalists out there who are a threat to our freedom. Bury the goddam hatchet, all of you.

  • Pitchguest

    If you’re not planning on leaving, then you should make it as clear as you can that this behaviour is unacceptable. Take it up with Brayton. They are blaming the victim — blaming you. If he has any principles of worth, he won’t stand for this. Frankly, I think you should take the fight to them. If anyone should be let go from the network, it’s not you, it’s them. Those two. Those “victim blaming assholes”.

    Maybe you don’t want my support but for what it’s worth, there it is. And personally, if this place becomes too toxic, I think changing network would serve as a catharsis. Best to whatever you choose to do.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    “Maybe you don’t want my support but for what it’s worth, there it is. And personally, if this place becomes too toxic, I think changing network would serve as a catharsis. Best to whatever you choose to do.”

    My sentiments too. And if you did decide to move your blog, I’m sure there’s a lot of places you’d be welcome. (And no, I don’t mean the Slympit :-) Best wishes for your stay at FTB if you do decide to stick it out though.

  • http://www.oolon.co.uk/ oolon

    Hiya Justin, you really have been spending too much time at the pit :-)

    I thought you were on the fence about Abbie for example? Same as me, good science writer but at times awful feminist and also sometimes awful person. I’m the same about Greg I cannot take sides and shun him… I didn’t like what he did to you before with the emails/calls/ass-kicking. But I do like his blogging and writing and he seems to make some good points at times about the Slymepit. I cannot repudiate him for dox’ing Mykeru, which is maybe because I’ve seen his trolling “style” first hand.

    I’m afraid I cannot take your personal hurt and experience and make it my own and hate him. Does it make you feel better when people hate your enemies for what they have done to you? If so then you’ll feel pretty good at the pit and I don’t read or post there any more so no oolon crap to deal with… Could be a winner. Maybe unlike Al you’ll actually tackle some of the ridiculous hyperbole there, or maybe you’ll be the next one denouncing FfTBs as the McCarthyite-Stalinist evil Galatic Empire it is! Somehow I doubt it, but I was totally wrong about Al.

    [JG Edit: replying to you is like replying to this:
    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bMLrA_0O5I&version=3&hl=en_US
    I'll take the bait to say this much - if you can't take sides and shun someone who uses violent threats against members of the atheist movement, you are anti-harassment policy. You certainly need to apply the same logic to the rest of the bodycount convicted of much lower charges. Be consistent, stop shitting on fences, and stop trawling for slimier and slimier reactions.]

  • Shivar

    “Is this level of fail on purpose?” Why, yes it is. You are trying to reason with fanatical ideologues who will go to any length to deny that they or their allies can ever be wrong. Atheism and skepticism are now infected with extremism and fundamentalism, and Freethoughtblogs serves as its headquarters.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      @Shivar

      I understand that few if any FtB’ers have come out swinging against hypocritical neighbors, or even Greg’ shocking behavior. That continuing silence does mean something, and I’m increasingly bothered by that. However, to describe FtB as HQ for Lousy Canuck / Zvan histrionics is to paint us all with a broad brush. A lot of them remain silent because they don’t blog about that shit at all, and aren’t interested for whatever reason.

  • sc_7fcd816dc7d5c9e72c65516e9f1f590e

    Justin, you are an intelligent guy. Step back and look at this entire situation, all of it. A good example is the condemnation of the slymepit by PZ, Laden, Stephanie and so on. The slymepit has over 400 registered members from differing countries, age groups, sexes,and sensitivity. How can anyone reasonably paint the entire forum with one brush stroke? The kind of thinking involved in being able to do that is the entire problem.
    I don’t have any interest in starting shit with people “just because” but I won’t let people like greg go around being a dick an informal salutation [JG: Fixed] and just watch it effect other people in a negative manner. That is what the slymepit is about for some people. Look at the comments you get from the slymepit people. Concern that this is all bringing you down to a level that is beneath you. Look at what you get from Zvan and Canuck. Orders on how you should behave and lies that harm your credibility. You obviously can figure out for yourself how you wish to behave and no one has the right to harm your credibility when you are being upfront and honest about your side of things. If these people are supposed to be your friends then you need to rethink what friendship means to you. If they are supposed to be like-minded then that should bother you a bit too. Keep in mind whenever a person displays a certain style when dealing with others the day will come when they deal with you the same way. It is only a matter of time before we see the same things happen between all of these people who treat others with no respect. PZ used to call creationists names and trash them on a personal level in public, now he does the same thing to atheists. Great example of what I’m talking about. I know I don’t know all the details to the problems going on but from where I am sitting there seems to be very little positive that can come from continuing to deal with these people.

  • gshelley

    In an ideal world, Zvan and Thibault would leave FtB, Zvan has never contributed anything worthwile, and Thibault has descended into such extreme tribalistic irrational double standards that I don’t know I can take anything he says seriously. Much like when Thunderfoot was present, they reflect badly on the network as a whole, but unless they start dragging the rest of the network into their dishonest persecution of you, I doubt anything will happen. (For the record, I tihnk Thunderfoot was clueless and wrong, and his behaviour since justifies his expulsion, but some of the criticism was basically poorly thought out straw men attacks on statements that loosely resembled his positions, especially by PZ)

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      gshelley – I think you’ve got it exactly right. We share the same POV on tf00t too.

  • mofa

    Continue to be true to yourself Justin.

    This above all: to thine own self be true,

    And it must follow, as the night the day,

    Thou canst not then be false to any man.

    Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!

    The Bard

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      @mofa That’s a refreshingly highbrow and apt quote, and I appreciate it.

  • Za-zen

    I’ve broken my self imposed “refuse to give hits to this network” to say that you won’t win Justin. Logic and reason does not operate normally in this sphere. If you fly the same flag as the politicos they will act as apologists for any tripe you say, ballsup you make, problems you create.

    If you don’t. Then you are the enemy. You my friend are their enemy.

  • http://www.atheistrev.com/ vjack

    Justin, I have to say that I agree with Lsuoma and everyone else who has been suggesting that you move your blog off of FtB. I realize that there are some good people here, but they are being overshadowed by a handful whose behavior is giving the network a very bad name. I am looking at your sidebar right now, and I see that the template you are required to use promotes the very bloggers who have been so abusive to you. That ought to be a concern. So here’s one more voice recommending that you leave FtB and go independent or join another network.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

    @Za-zen Thanks man. You touched on something in passing that I always meant to point out to the general audience.

    I’ve broken my self imposed “refuse to give hits to this network”

    FWIW – If it’s my blog, then 100% of profit goes to local military atheist activist charity. I refuse to make a dime off of the atheist movement, though I don’t necessarily judge others harshly for doing so. I just know that once something like blogging is influenced by the dollar, it’s harder to tell if somebody is just posting for the traffic effect. Nobody but PZ really generates any meaningful cashflow here, so let me disabuse anybody of that idea ahead of time as far as FtB.

    On a related note, It kind of sucks that reddit gets spammed to shit with blogspam, that the only way they can deal with it is that you get ‘bricked’ for selfish submission ratios.

    The traffic I get to an imgur link for the same images I photoshopped and posted here first would have generated hundreds of dollars each for small groups of military atheists. I’d still rather a lot of people see the message, so I started conforming to the standard reddit practice and don’t even bother with a link back here. Though it potentially deprives a bit of money from some people that deserve it, thinking like that will just ensure that nobody sees it at all.

    Still though, check out the view count on my most recent image to do well off-site. 99.99% of that was in the first 24 hours. That’s more than I get here in a typical two and a month period, and would have earned a group around $250. And I do well like that fairly regularly off-site.

  • http://florilegia.wordpress.com Ibis3, Blighter and Trampler since 1971

    This whole thing feels a lot to me like airing family dirty laundry in public. Seeing it is like watching something that should be done behind closed doors–it’s embarrassing. I know that I’m nobody to you (or Jason, or Stephanie), but here’s my suggestion: have a real conversation (spoken rather than written) in private; select a neutral mediator to make sure it doesn’t go off the rails; get things sorted. Maybe there’s too much bitterness there already, but perhaps a good relationship (or at least a live and let live one) could be salvaged–after all, the main enemies–yours and theirs–are other parties, not each other.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      I like that suggestion Ibis3. In fact I always try to employ this strategy before criticizing someone harshly (especially military and even in religious contexts). I think you’ll see that from the very first moment of the entire ordeal, that was precisely my suggestion in my original reply to the type of threats that I typically forward to the FBI.

      As far as LC goes, he’s already ‘promised’ to never communicate here anymore, and doesn’t seem interested in dialog. I’m still open to it, but I’m not going to watch hypocrites defend Greg for doing much worse than what they foam from their mouths over in others, while simultaneously attempting to damage my reputation and add me to their witch of the week body count.

  • http://www.facebook.com/al.stefanelli Al Stefanelli

    “I have been – and always shall be – your friend.” – Spock

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/noelplum99 noelplum99

    I think you should stay on FtB. I find it refreshing that there are bloggers here who are more than willing to actually stand up to the likes of Jason Thibeault. It seems all too often that this site consists of those who form part of that little clique and people who just keep their mouths shut and say nothing. I like dissenting voices – they are healthy -, even when i don’t agree with them.

    You have go to admire how they circle the wagons, though. I honestly believe if Ophelia Benson strapped a thermonuclear device to her back and detonated herself at the ‘charity worker of the year awards’ they would be blogging the next day in her resolute defence!

    They would actually make excellent trades union negotiators. They never blink. Ever.

    Jim.

  • http://bynkii.com John C. Welch

    Dude, seriously.

    I think at this point, you’ve seen what trying to placate the troika here gets you: more grief.

    In an attempt to keep the peace, look at what you ended up doing and saying, and what little good it did you. The troika has zero interest in anything but blind agreement, no matter how they protest. They call themselves social justice warriors, yet were defeated by the idea of talking to the gelato guy in person. But from hundreds of miles away, they bring the thunder. PZ even enshrined this behavior in his “advice for new commenters”

    They rail against language when the same language used in their comments is fine…as long as it’s by one of the kool kids. They lament violent language and threats, unless they’re from an approved source. Then it ‘s just hyperbole, don’t be so sensitive.

    Over and over, the same constant hypocrisy, the continual refusal to hold themselves or their favorites to the standards the demand the world conform to, and you’re surprised by their behavior?

    Dude, they are *never* going to stop hitting you, until you hesh ep, do what you’re told and get back in the damned kitchen.

    At one point, I thought you needed the folks here, but I was wrong. It is they who need RBB, and badly. They need you, and the events you set up or help set up. Without a stage to speak from, all they are? Yet more angry bloggers.

    And yes, it is perhaps unfair to paint everyone here with the same brush, but face it, in the monkey house, who gets noticed, the quiet ones in the corner or the loud screamers flinging poop at the glass? Right now, the screamers are dominating. For the good of RBB, if nothing else, you should think seriously about disassociating from FTB.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      Thanks all for the support, whatever stripe. For the record, calm, rational dissent is always welcome, and appreciated too.

      @Al, most definitely. And totally agreed with your bit on that latest video about defending Ed Brayton. Ed is a really good guy with a tougher than it sounds task.

      @Welch,

      They call themselves social justice warriors, yet were defeated by the idea of talking to the gelato guy in person. But from hundreds of miles away, they bring the thunder. PZ even enshrined this behavior in his “advice for new commenters.”

      I gather from context what you mean, but I’m just unfamiliar with both of the bold references, and am interested in the backstory. Link?

  • http://beliefblower.com Renee Hendricks

    LOL Neat! I’m on that “witch of the week body count”. Even funnier is it’s because of my video explaining what misogyny is :D

    Anyway, Justin, all this will pass and I’m sure within a day or two there will be yet another drama-fest over something idiotic and trivial. Meanwhile, the world outside of the Internet will spin along smoothly without ever really caring who these online “warriors” are or what they’re doing :)

  • allison

    Justin, I would really like to see you move to a blogging network that supports you and your cause. I hope it is clear to you now that Svan and Canuck and the rest of their little “mean girls” clique do not have your back here. There are some good people remaining at FTB (and it does dismay me to see them frequently lumped together with the crazies, hence my support of the term “Fainting Couch Brigade” for Canuck et al), but I’m sure you’ve noticed the stream of departures recently. Be assured that you are by NO MEANS alone in your frustration with the bullying and contemptible behavior from those people. Best of luck to you.

  • N_J

    Justin: “Gelato Guy” is a reference to a Christian man who used to own a gelato shop in Springfield, Missouri, when SkeptiCon took place there a year ago. Some links for the story (in order):

    http://www.is-there-a-god.info/blog/life/the-story-of-pz-myers-and-the-gelato-guy/

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/11/20/how-not-to-make-an-1100-person-convention-welcome/

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/11/22/fair-weather-atheists-and-sunshine-skeptics/

    After which, PZ exhorted his Twitter followers to “fuck Gelato Guy into the ground”. (Google —> gelato guy “fuck him into the ground <— for much more detail. I recall reading of harassing phone calls, calls to boycott, and harassing mail.

    Coincidentally or not, Gelato Guy closed down his business within a few months. I honestly do not know if the harassment by PZ's minions played a factor, and won't speculate one way or the other. But the story is a perfect example of PZ unleashing his intolerant righteous rage on someone who didn't do anything really all that bad (and who even apologized later), with no forgiveness, and incitement to harass.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      Interesting re: gelato guy. I think I’ve done that on a MUCH smaller scale, and with much less intensity than the way described here. When you put it that way, I now think my earlier behavior is the wrong answer. Despite a much different situation, I needed to look at the guy admitting he was wrong and encourage that… I missed a chance to praise a specific instance of a business spinning on a dime, and making the right call. I felt justified at the time in a way that I don’t now. Yeah they fucked me over and made me waste money and time at the last minute scrambling for an alternate fix, but did I really need to pounce when they attempted to make it right?

      I haven’t read through the links just yet (will re-address if I’m way off), but I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that PZ meant it like this: “Fuck that guy, he sucks.” and not “Fuck with that guy. End his business!!!”

  • http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

    Justin,

    Yeah, the links above detail it well. Keep I mind, PZ was right there. He could have just talked to the guy, put a human face on things, shown the guy that he was wrong, and not been a douche. But where’s the fun in that? Much better to yell “FUCK HIM INTO THE GROUND” on twitter from Morris.

    The other item is shown here: http://bynkii.com/bynkiidotcomimages/pzsezgetoverit.png

    So basically, PZ has made something that is essentially cowardice SOP for his site. Awesome.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      Did he ever give the “FUCK HIM INTO THE GROUND” a second look after reading that extremely heartfelt apology from gelato guy? I mean after reading that the guy only had the sign up for 10 minutes and he sincerely apologized like that… Yikes.

      Thanks for the lesson of the Gilato Guy, Welch, others…

      edit: Holy shit… I just saw his rejection of the apology. I don’t relate at all.

  • N_J

    You could be right, Justin. He may not have literally meant “ruin Gelato Guy”. But a person in a position of influence has to be careful how they state things. PZ has a lot of people who practically idol-worship him, and hang on his every word. (Why, I can’t even imagine).

    Maybe “fuck him into the ground” was indeed just PZ innocently blowing off some rhetorical steam. Or maybe it was his way of sending a message to his too-often vitriolic followers to fuck with the man (much the same way he has his followers “pharyngulate” online polls so that they give the results he wants them changed to – all without telling them what option to vote for), and the way he put it he can easily point to his words and say “See? I said nothing explicit! I was just upset and mouthing off!” People with slavish followings can and do use that technique often; Pat Robertson is an example.

    There’s a lot of links in Google for this incident, hopefully you’ll find some interesting reading.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      But a person in a position of influence has to be careful how they state things.

      Yeah, with great power comes great corruption, absolutely. Might have said that wrong.

      [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4vEVM22UCU&hl=en_US&version=3

      I think that pharyngulating is less nefarious, honestly. I think PZ imagines his internet firehose will seek out one or maybe two choices in most of the polls, depending on the polls. He doesn't seem to be saying "SEE? I DIDN'T TELL 'EM TO VOTE THAT WAY!" I don't read him anymore (I don't want to get his washed hands all Griff'd up.) But I specifically saw him say what choice he expected people to make quite a few times. He actually just seems to be saying:

      online polls are:

      -pointless
      -unscientific
      -even if unpharyngulated, it's not an indicator of public opinion, or of 'truth'. It's at best an indicator of the opinions of readers of whatever website is behind the poll. (Fox News polls would say X, but 'sciencey' Gallop says Y, etc.) That being said, the only type of polls that aren't good targets for pharyngulation are things like 'reader's opinion polls', e.g. the one Jen McCreight was angry about having to scrap the results. Her data would have been useful to her. [I doubt he realized it would anger her, but it obviously did.]

  • jose

    Just here to second what Ibis3 said. This is like the big brother TV show, housemates having arguments, feels sort of voyeuristic. More importantly, casual readers don’t care about dirty laundry. I’m sure I don’t. Not talking about you, mind you, in my opinion the main offenders are Zvan and Thibeault. In fact there’s a guy who commented at Lousy Canuck saying the same thing, he didn’t care who shitted on who, what with mentions to emails sent, off-the-record conversations and whatnot.

    I think the new people are fresh air: Fidalgo has good stuff up, Brute Reason is becoming a favorite personally, Nonstampcollector we already knew his stuff. Then you have the all-time goodies, Nasrin, Hunter, Fox, Hutchinson, Singham, AronRa etc. There is more substance here overall than in other networks like say, Patheos. Recruiting Libby Anne was a smart move on their part but I’m talking overall. The thing is Patheos always looks outwards, appealing to the audience. When they debate something, like when Bad Catholic tackled Libby Anne’s “pro-life deconversion” story, it’s like a public event, the topic is the protagonist. Can’t we have the best of both worlds? I’d like to see this subset of FTB just killfiling their haters -and reporting them when necessary, impersonators can’t be tolerated- and keeping the internal stuff to themselves/yourselves/whatever in order to sort of refocus into the stuff readers would like to read.

    The evolutionary psychology posts were enjoyable to me I have to say. There’s no need to agree on anything. Jon Stewart and Chris Wallace disagree on everything and nonetheless there they are. It’s the debate itself that’s fun—and not personal. (btw you still *must* read Our Inner Ape!)

    One more thing: with your permission I’m going to save that poster with the soldier, made me laugh out loud. xD

  • chasstewart

    Yeah, I think PZ’s reaction to the apology gives a clearer meaning to his “fuck him to the ground” line. [JG edit: sorry, had to snip. Know what you meant though.] I remember that event and thinking, “I’m so happy with myself for not reading PZ anymore” ;) .

    I’m with Noel. Stay with FtB and be that contrarian asshole that annoys the shit out of a choice few. I feel like this is your calling. That is, unless you can move to Patheos and make more money for your charities. That would be a utilitarian decision.

  • http://www.bynkii.com John C. Welch

    I wouldn’t expect you to Justin. You’re not trying to establish yourself as Someone Not To Be Fucked With. PZ is. You’re not trying to become The Head MotherFucker In Charge. PZ is. You’re also not so deep into your own dogma that “No Retreat, No Surrender” is the only way you can go.

    PZ et al are so fast to demonize all who don’t toe their line that they *can’t* accept an apology that isn’t so bizarrely obsequious, no one would offer it. Look at what PZ wanted from the guy and ask yourself if he seriously ever expected the dude to comply. There’s no way, no sane way. So he gets to reject any and all SANE apologies as “not good enough” all the while saying “hey, he can do the right thing, if he really wanted to” and paint himself as “reasonable”. It’s not HIM being unreasonable, it’s the other guy not willing to admit he’s wrong. If he’d just LISTEN, and CONSIDER, then ADMIT his incorrectness, and properly APOLOGIZE, he’d be forgiven just…like…that.

    Sound familiar? It should.

    That’s PZ and the others in a nutshell. At this point, given their willingness to overlook pretty much any bad behavior, as long as it’s from the “right” people against the SPs, if someone actually piped you, or tried to, I’m sure PZ, Zvan et al would blame you for it, because you “pushed” that poor, poor victim until they had no choice but to lash out.

    Sometimes I seriously wonder just where they draw the line for EVERYONE.

    Then I worry they might actually honestly tell me. I’m not really sure which would be worse.

  • neuralobserver

    sc….@10:

    It is only a matter of time before we see the same things happen between all of these people who treat others with no respect. PZ used to call creationists names and trash them on a personal level in public, now he does the same thing to atheists. Great example of what I’m talking about. I know I don’t know all the details to the problems going on but from where I am sitting there seems to be very little positive that can come from continuing to deal with these people.

    Couldn’t agree more.

  • neuralobserver

    comments #34, #35, and many other earlier comments….. Excellent.

  • John Morales

    Justin, I’ve just read the entire thread, culminating in the last few comments.

    (I can see you don’t mind the… um, support you’re getting)

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      John, how do I interpret this?

      Justin, I’ve just read the entire thread, culminating in the last few comments.

      (I can see you don’t mind the… um, support you’re getting)

      1) Is this a guilt by association thing?

      Or

      2) is this a reminder that all of my co-bloggers are silent while 2 of them say shit like:

      “Greg issued to Justin what Greg describes as a “Patton Slap”, a letter he worded so forcefully because he intended to smarten Justin up and realize that the people who’d targeted him, me, Stephanie, Jen McCreight, Ophelia Benson, PZ Myers, and countless others in the blogosphere would use Justin’s status as a veteran against him. That they would use the fact that he had to engage in activities at the army’s behest that would break most of us. And Greg’s “Patton Slap” went over the line in a lot of ways — warning that these people would try to trigger Justin’s PTSD was, in a way, just another trigger, even if Greg didn’t intend it that way, since intention isn’t magic. It’s the same reason you scream “trigger warning” before a post containing these potential triggers — you don’t want to accidentally hurt someone you’re not intending to.
      I don’t think I’d have sent that letter. I might have thought about it, I might even have DONE it,”

      ^ Are you saying you, John Morales, might have sent me a PTSD Triggering, violent threat, PATTON SLAP?! Are you too afraid to call out Lousy Canuck for that dipshit statement, because he’s ‘on your team’?

      Correct me if I’ve misread you, and feel free to disagree with me (please be calm and reasonable about it). I just don’t know how to read what you said there…

  • http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

    Sigh…oh look, it’s Morales playing guilt by association, the standard FTB game the whole family can play.

    how

    utterly

    surprising

  • John Morales

    Justin,

    John, how do I interpret this?

    Justin, I’ve just read the entire thread, culminating in the last few comments.

    (I can see you don’t mind the… um, support you’re getting)

    1) Is this a guilt by association thing?

    Or

    2) is this a reminder that all of my co-bloggers are silent while 2 of them say shit like:

    It’s a reminder, if anything, that it’s your blog — which happens to be hosted on FTB* — and an observation of who is egging you on**. It’s a reminder, too, that you are an independent agent.

    * Only you can fathom how problematic that is, based on your experience here and your goals in blogging.

    ** People antithetical to FTB as an entity.

  • John Morales

    PS

    Are you too afraid to call out Lousy Canuck for that dipshit statement, because he’s ‘on your team’?

    I commented there well before I commented here.

  • http://www.facebook.com/KacyRay kacyray

    “Come down… get off your fucking cross. We need the fucking space to nail the next fool martyr.”

    Eulogy – Tool

  • http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

    The thing about referring to it as a “patton slap” shows that no one using that term, at least in this case, has the *slightest* clue as to what that even is.

    When the patton slap, (the first one, there were two) happened, Patton was not trying to do anything “good” for the guy he hit, at least not in terms of shaking him “out of it” or anything similar. Patton had received reports of largish numbers of soldiers malingering to avoid going to the front. (I may not agree with that, but hell, who can’t understand the impulse. Getting shot at isn’t high on anyone’s list of how to spend a trip to Europe.) When he showed up at the hospital where Private Kuhl was a patient: (from wikipedia)

    When Patton asked Kuhl where he was hurt, Kuhl shrugged and replied that he was “nervous” rather than wounded, adding “I guess I can’t take it.”[59] In response, Patton slapped Kuhl across the chin with his gloves, then grabbed him by the collar and dragged him to the tent entrance, shoving him out of the tent with a final kick to Kuhl’s backside.[59] Yelling “Don’t admit this son-of-a-bitch”, Patton demanded that Kuhl be sent back to the front at once, adding, “You hear me, you gutless bastard? You’re going back to the front.”[59] Patton briefly resumed visiting the other patients, then returned and berated Kuhl again.[60]

    That was not any kind of therapeutic action. That was someone angry, with reason, taking it out on a guy who turned out to have….malaria. Yeah. Pvt. Kuhl was not malingering, nor was it shell shock. He had an actual disease. Oops.

    They also forget that Patton had to apologize to Private Kuhl *in front of everyone present at the time*. That part never seems to get mentioned.

    The blatant, and frankly, piss-poor attempt at justifying Laden’s actions as an “attempt to toughen you up” because somehow, people calling you names would make some of the more…interesting…bits of your service record seem…what, mild in comparison(?) is just…I dunno, there aren’t enough letters in “stupid” to describe just how stupid that is. But, when you’re trying to justify inexcusable behavior, I guess you have to work harder.

    I also find it amusing just who is, by and large, been fairly publicly supportive of Justin in all this, and who, by and large, who has not.

  • Pitchguest

    I’m curious what you mean by that, Morales. Truly. What are you implying with that comment?

  • http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

    Morales,

    while it’s nice that you sort of, in the lightest possible manner, called out Canuck for his comment, the guilt-by-association thing is stupid.

    Yes, I make no bones about my opinions of most of the FTB lot. I’m not hiding from it in the least. Nor do I hide that I not only post at the current ‘pit, but I was one of the early people in the original “Bad Form Rebecca Watson” commentary. I have rather low opinions of the people around here, and barring some radical changes in behavior on their part, I don’t see that changing. shrug

    However, if you’re going to say that “because [people i don't like] agree with you, your statement is invalid/less than valid/may not be valid”, then that’s just dumb. Justin’s opinions and statements are valid or invalid *regardless* of who agrees or disagrees with them. Insinuating otherwise is silly, bordering on stupid, and given how the atheist community is (legitimately) unhappy when “WELL STALIN WAS AN ATHEIST SO YOU’RE EVIL” is used, your (poorly disguised) attempts to do the same reek of craven dishonesty.

  • chasstewart

    @Morales I’m like Andrew Sullivan, of no party or clique.

  • John Morales

    JCW:

    Yes, I make no bones about my opinions of most of the FTB lot.

    I noted who is doing the cajoling, you’ve affirmed it.

    However, if you’re going to say that “because [people i don't like] agree with you, your statement is invalid/less than valid/may not be valid”, then that’s just dumb. Justin’s opinions and statements are valid or invalid *regardless* of who agrees or disagrees with them. Insinuating otherwise is silly, bordering on stupid, and given how the atheist community is (legitimately) unhappy when “WELL STALIN WAS AN ATHEIST SO YOU’RE EVIL” is used, your (poorly disguised) attempts to do the same reek of craven dishonesty.

    Your little peroration depends entirely on the truth-value of your if.

    (heh)

     

     

    Pitchguest:

    What are you implying with that comment?

    What it’s saying is pretty clear — two sentences and two footnotes.

    (I suppose what it’s implying is that I don’t presume to urge Justin to anything, not being a wormtongue)

  • http://atheistpassivist.wordpress.com/ Kilian Hekhuis

    I mean I can believe it coming from Greg “can’t spell the title of his own book correctly” Laden.

    Though I appreciate you and Greg aren’t the best of friends, this is really a bit childish.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      @Kilian

      Laden continues to try to convince people that I’m a toddler in a parking lot, that I needed his Patton Slap to trigger my PTSD, etc… I tried the bury the hatchet route with that man. I tried hard. And I don’t even like the idea of Greg Laden having such easy access to hatchets. I’ll be sticking with the childish Greg “insult goes here” Laden.

  • http://atheistpassivist.wordpress.com/ Kilian Hekhuis

    @Justin #50: I can imagine you get fed up by Greg being childish as well, I just think it doesn’t look good on you if you take that approach. I’m personally rather baffled by all the animosity between proponents of the atheist movement, and I think that personal vendettas should best be kept out of the open, lest it rubs of on the whole community.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/ Justin Griffith

      @Kilian – What Greg did was not simply childish. It was illegal for him to (repeatedly) use violent threats, and he has a long history of bullying. It’s strange how so many people are saying this to me, but not to any of the other people who are victims of harassment and/or threats. “Get over it, keep it private… Jen, Rebecca, Zvan…”

      It’s either EVERYONE should put up with illegal threats and not talk about it, or NOBODY should take that approach, as far as doling out advice goes. I think you need to be consistent with this. If you’ve said the same thing to any of those (if you read them), then kudos, you’re consistent. In fact, take a look at the ‘list of known sexists‘ that have been excommunicated to varying degrees. I can’t name one of them has done something as bad as what Greg Laden did, and got booted from FtB for doing.


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