The Abominable Shellfish

Why some Christians hate gays but love bacon

The third book of the Bible, Leviticus, has some wonderful passages. The Jubilee laws outlined in chapter 25, for example, provide an inspiring vision of liberty and justice for all. The 10th verse of this chapter even supplied the inscription for the Liberty Bell: "proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof."

The Jubilee laws and the ideals they embody, unfortunately, are nearly wholly neglected and forgotten. Most of the book of Leviticus is similarly neglected.

Yet some passages live on, their teachings still regarded as unwavering and binding.

One such passage is Lev. 20:13, which says (in the King James Version), "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination."

That passage is frequently cited by the spokesmen of the religious right to explain why they're so adamantly opposed to allowing homosexuals to enjoy full civil rights here in America.

The thing is, though, that the book of Leviticus condemns a lot of things as "abominations." The 11th chapter is overflowing with abominations. For example, from verses 10-12:

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

The folks over on the religious right cite Leviticus as evidence that homosexuals are an unclean "abomination," yet they have no problem eating at Red Lobster. What gives?

Since many observers have noted this apparent inconsistency (see, for example, godhatesshrimp.com) I figured I would wade in to try to explain why it is that so many contemporary Christians reject gays while embracing shellfish.

To understand why God is no longer considered a hater of shrimp you have to flip ahead to the Acts of the Apostles, the good doctor's account of the early days of the Christian church.

Acts chapter 10 finds the apostle Peter on a rooftop in Joppa, praying at noon before heading down to lunch.

The impulsive former fisherman has grown into a genuine leader in the early church. At Pentecost, he preached the gospel to people from every corner of the Roman Empire and he is slowly appreciating that this new community is supposed to transcend any ethnic or cultural boundaries. But the goyim still seem to bug him a bit. Especially the Romans.

So God gives him a vision. Peter falls into a trance and sees a vision of a giant tablecloth descending from heaven. The tablecloth is covered with honeybaked hams, cheesesteaks, crab cakes, calamari and lobster.

"Eat up, Peter," a voice tells him

"Surely not, Lord!" Peter says. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

"Don't call anything unclean that God has made clean," the voice says. "And try the angels on horseback, they're like butter."

This happens three times.

This is generally regarded as an instance in which a New Testament passage seems to set aside a prohibition from the Old Testament. And that's why our friends on the religious right do not feel compelled to eat kosher and do not consider shellfish to be "an abomination."

Fair enough, but there's something else going on in this story. The main point of Peter's rooftop epiphany has nothing to do with diet. The main point of this vision had to do with the people who were about to knock on Peter's door.

Peter is about to meet Cornelius. Cornelius is a gentile. Worse than that, he is a Roman. Worse than that, he is a Roman centurion. Cornelius is about as kosher as a bacon double cheeseburger.

But give Peter credit — he understood the vision. "Don't call anything unclean that God has made clean." Don't call anyone unclean that God has made clean.

Peter does not treat Cornelius as an unclean outsider. He travels to the centurion's house, where he says, "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean."

Peter gets it. In this new community that God is building, this church, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free. No one is excluded as unclean.

This is the unsubtle point that Luke is hammering home for his gentile friend Theophilus. The surrounding chapters of Acts read like a hyper-P.C. after-school special on celebrating diversity. The church embraces Jews and gentiles, Roman soldiers and slaves, men and women, Africans, Greeks and even a token white European.

In our fondness for Easter ham, we Christians have fervently clung to the surface-level meaning of Peter's vision. But we haven't been as enthusiastic about embracing the larger, more important lesson God was teaching him there on the rooftop. When the "unclean" outsiders knock on our doors, we don't like inviting them in.

That, in a nutshell, is why some Christians happily dismiss one "abomination" while still behaving abominably out of allegiance to another.

(Oh, and what about Leviticus' Jubilee laws? Those were never set aside by anything in the New Testament, but Christians no longer treat them as authoritative because, um … well, because money is pretty and shiny and let's us buy nice things.)

  • Jeff

    bulbul is a Collective. Possibly a Borg. This just confirms many suspicions on my part.

  • Duane

    bulbul is a Collective
    Definitely a collectivist.

  • Anthony

    First of all if Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality but as i pointed out earlier he proclaimed that gods will be done. and needless to state to obvious that god really disapproved of homosexuality in the old testament. Thus let gods will be done!
    I didnt say that they couldnt get into heaven because of their wealth and also MORE difficult is different from cannot follow him.
    As i said many time before living a sin free life is impossible. But jesus makes us holy by dieing on the cross for ALL our sins. Yes eating shellfish is a sin then but then so is homosexuality. But it is jesus who makes us holy.(so therefore if you want, you can be a christian and be a homosexual and eat shellfish). But that is why jesus did not care much for sins like shellfish and homosexuality(there is no greater sin a sins a sin) Jesus knew that if the people believed in him(truly) will be saved from the damnation in hell.
    it is true by loving doesnt mean to agree. (Ever been married :P)
    but love is also to point out that homosexuality is wrong (and so is eating shellfish) and to spread the good news cause without Jesus you cant be holy and therefore in trouble if you sin. This is my kind of love (so that as few as possible burn in eternal fire due to ignorance).It depends how you define love (maybe just not hating him and having a grudge).
    Neither am i judging others. i never said that youre a sinner. I just said that homosexuality is a sin(and so is eating shellfish).
    Yes the will of god is unchanging. We are not put to death for our sins because jesus’s will said so. and jesus is god. Jesus was never plan B cause remember that God can see the future(do you think he did not know that the christian life was impossible)so gods will never changed all along. Jesus did not stand i the way of the father so that he couldnt strike us. They agreed in union(remember the lord your god is one god). SO if jesus was plan A i dont think theres another plan before that. Gods will did not change. It was HIS will all along.

  • bulbul

    bulbul, you’re… plural? *blinks*
    That’s what you get when you forget to include the link. So here it is.
    As for Jeff’s comment, I will neither confirm nor deny. But I will say this: Resistance is futile. EX-TER-MI-NATE!!!
    But jesus makes us holy by dieing on the cross for ALL our sins. Yes eating shellfish is a sin then but then so is homosexuality. But it is jesus who makes us holy.(so therefore if you want, you can be a christian and be a homosexual and eat shellfish). But that is why jesus did not care much for sins like shellfish and homosexuality(there is no greater sin a sins a sin)
    That’s three consecutive “but”s. Surely a sign of a diseased mind (no offence, Anthony).
    And if anyone ever finds out what “there is no greater sin a sins a sin” means, let me know.

  • cjmr’s husband

    (there is no greater sin a sins a sin)
    The way I fixed the punctuation was (There is no “greater” sin; a sin’s a sin), which I then translated as All sins are equally bad, which is why Christians always invite homosexuals to join them at Lobsterfest. Or something like that.
    bulbul, you’re… plural?
    Of course, otherwise they’d just be plain “bul” :-)

  • Duane

    Bulbul: And if anyone ever finds out what “there is no greater sin a sins a sin” means, let me know
    Maybe Victor could step up and translate..
    Yes eating shellfish is a sin then but then so is homosexuality
    I just said that homosexuality is a sin(and so is eating shellfish)
    jesus did not care much for sins like shellfish and homosexuality
    also to point out that homosexuality is wrong (and so is eating shellfish)
    I bet no one thought he’d condemn the shellfish so his beautiful mind could continue to hate teh gay.

  • Beth

    but love is also to point out that homosexuality is wrong (and so is eating shellfish) and to spread the good news cause without Jesus you cant be holy and therefore in trouble if you sin. This is my kind of love (so that as few as possible burn in eternal fire due to ignorance).
    That’s a fine motive, but it occurs to me that you’re not making very good use of your time. The ban on homosexuality is probably the one obscure Jewish ritual law that most people are aware of. If you really want to enlighten the ignorant, why not tell them about some of the laws they’re likely to be ignorant of, like the fact that they must not eat ostriches and eagles, or how long a woman remains unclean after giving birth? You could provide them with a list of the activities that defile the Sabbath or the laws regarding infectious skin diseases or the regulations about mildew. There are so many laws that people are ignorant of, why waste your time with one that everyone already knows?

  • bulbul

    but love is also to point out that homosexuality is wrong (and so is eating shellfish) and to spread the good news cause without Jesus you cant be holy and therefore in trouble if you sin.
    What good news? “Faggot, you’re going to hell!”

  • Duane

    Marko: ..and no one has yet shown me that sodomy is good
    Hmm. Tried switching positions, or maybe trying a “smaller” partner? Other things to try: Amyl/Butyl nitrate, massage oils & water-based lubricants. Don’t be distressed if it doesn’t work out for you: not everyone is a “bottom”.
    Good luck experimenting!

  • Ray

    Beth makes a good point – if homosexuality and eating shellfish are equally sinful, and so are all the other obscure bits of Leviticus, then focussing on homosexuality is not very cost-effective. For maximum salvation, you should be picketing lobster restaurants, clothes shops, and barbers, because they send many millions more people to hell every year.
    Or are you just obsessed with the gay sex?

  • Anthony

    Not obsessed with the gay sex. The only maximum salvation a person can get is through Jesus Christ. Like he said”i am the way the truth and the life….” Not by focusing on not sinning cause you will fail but by making jesus the way, the truth and your life.

  • Jesurgislac

    Anthony: So what are the punishments of sin? The punishments of sin is being unhappy.
    You think everyone who eats bacon is unhappy?

  • Anthony

    Who can tell. God is the judge. He will decide on the punsihments on earth.All I can say from my own belief is that by sinning it allows a chance(no matter how small) for a person to go to hell.

  • Anthony

    even if jesus is the way the truth and your life

  • Anthony

    unhappyness is just one thing that comes from sinning

  • wintermute

    > unhappyness is just one thing that comes from sinning
    I know it’s been said before, but you’re clearly doing it wrong.

  • cjmr’s husband

    unhappyness is just one thing that comes from sinning
    Unhappiness is also one thing that comes from not sinning. I suspect that there isn’t much cause-and-effect there.
    I don’t recall Jesus saying a lot about being happy or unhappy (although I seem to recall Paul had a lot to say about Joy, but I personally don’t think he was talking about the same thing) (I’m sure someone will supply a chapter and verse here. Probably with a sledgehammer)
    Now, the Buddha had some things to say about avoiding being Unhappy, but his goal wasn’t Happiness either.

  • wintermute

    Actually, contrast that line with your earlier “that doesnt mean that i wont eat shell fish. its too tasty.”…
    Does eating shellfish make you (and I mean you, personally, not a generic “you”) unhappy?
    If so, isn’t that good enough reason for you to stop (because, clearly, the direct word of God isn’t)?
    If it doesn’t, does that mean (a) that eating shellfish is not a sin, despite what God says about it; or (b) that sinning doesn’t neccessarily cause unhappiness?

  • Jesurgislac

    All I can say from my own belief is that by sinning it allows a chance(no matter how small) for a person to go to hell.
    So you believe that eating bacon means that a person may go to hell? Do you realize that McDonald’s offer bacon, not only at breakfast, but on request at most McDonald’s restaurants at any time of the day? What is this but incitement to sin? Why are you focussing on homosexuality, when eating bacon is so widely accepted in the US?

  • Jeff

    Jesurgislac:
    You think everyone who eats bacon is unhappy?
    I’m sure you know the story about the Catholic priest and the rabbi. The priest asks the rabbi if he’s ever tried bacon. The rabbi admits that he has and that it was pretty good.
    The rabbi then asks the priest if he’s ever had sex (with a woman, you perv!). The priest admits that he has. The rabbi pauses then says, “Way better than bacon, yeah?”.
    bulbul:
    Resistance is futile. EX-TER-MI-NATE!!!
    So have the Borg assimilated the Daleks or the Daleks reprogrammed the Borg? Enquiring minds want to know!
    I know the real reason Anthony doesn’t think sodomy is good is because he’s never tried it with a dinosaur (and off to Making Light I go).

  • aunursa

    A priest and a rabbi found themselves sitting next to each other on an airplane. Naturally the conversation turned to the differences in their beliefs.
    When lunch was served, the pastor teasingly asked the rabbi, “Look at all you’re missing, Rabbi. when you can’t eat pork. When are you going to break down and have a nice BLT sandwich?”
    The rabbi thought for a moment and then replied, “At your wedding, Father.”

  • Jesurgislac

    A rabbi and a priest get into a car accident and it’s a bad one. Both cars are totally demolished but amazingly neither of the clerics is hurt. After they crawl out of their cars, the rabbi sees the priest’s collar and says, “So you’re a priest. I’m a rabbi. Just look at our cars. There’s nothing left, but we are unhurt. This must be a sign from G-d. G-d must have meant that we should meet and be friends and live together in peace the rest of our days.” The priest replies, “I agree with you completely.” “This must be a sign from G-d.” The rabbi continues, “And look at this. Here’s another miracle. My car is completely demolished but this bottle of Mogen David wine didn’t break. Surely G-d wants us to drink this wine and celebrate our good fortune.” Then he hands the bottle to the priest. The priest agrees, takes a few big swigs, and hands the bottle back to the rabbi. The rabbi takes the bottle, immediately puts the cap on, and hands it back to the priest. The priest asks, “Aren’t you having any?” The rabbi replies, “No …I think I’ll wait for the police.”
    (Sorry. No bacon was served with this joke.)

  • Anthony

    There are many reason people believe that bacon can be eaten in present time. We have actually breed the animals with new technology and knowledge. Not available in the past. Bacon was bad because they feed on anything(even dirty dump). Crabs and Lobsters were prohibited beacaues they were scavengers and later left overs in the sea. We now know these things and are able to protect ourselves while enjoying the tasty black pepper crab. See when we debate the bible, god is not just a text he is the “beginning and the end” he can see the future remember. God has reasons too. Down to even the running water. Do you think its amazing that he knew about bacteria? Well you shouldnt be amazed! after all he is the creator(if you are a believer).

  • wintermute

    So, there’s a passage in the Bible that says eating pork and lobster will stop being a sin when we invent intensive farming? Can we have chapter and verse? Does this also apply to homosexuality, since we invented condoms? If not, why not?
    How does that fit in with “I also remember that the nature and the will of god is unchanging. So if he stated his will in the old testament it cant change in the new testament and if that is the case jesus does not have to mention anything about [sin X] as his father has already stated his will and jesus aknowledges and proclaims his fathers will. Therefore [sin X] is a sin.”?

  • Jesurgislac

    Anthony, so you’re arguing that eating shellfish and pork/bacon is sinful when it is threatening to your health, but is not sinful when it is not. So, it’s sinful to eat pork or bacon in the developing world unless it has been thoroughly cooked, because you might get trichinosis, and it’s sinful to eat shellfish that might be contaminated with saxitoxin.
    But, you argue, that where an activity is not directly damaging, God hasn’t really prohibited it as a sin. So, according to that argument, as homosexuality is not directly damaging (certainly not as lethal as eating a bad oyster or undercooked wild pork would be!) you must believe that God hasn’t really prohibited it as a sin – and indeed, once Jews were no longer exclusively a small nomad tribe of desert dwellers, probably never did.
    Unlike bacon.

  • Anthony

    Im just saying thats one of many different beliefs of why we can eat bacon. Even though it seems that Homosexuality or any sexual sins is more detestable than eating unclean food. Read Leviticus Homosexuality (death!!!) and unclean food (wash clothes and unclean till evening) which is more severe?
    Gods will has not changed but only the covenant has. God has not changed his mind on whats good and bad. The only difference between the old testament and now is Jesus.
    Yes we invented the condoms and WAIT how well does it work? It is so shit that getting AIDS has become a stereotype of gay people.
    I didnt say anything about the bible when i said about the pork. Im just saying that God is more than a text. You cant know god just through analysing the bible. A theologian and pastor will have different interpretaions of the same passage. You know god through praise and worship etc. In Samuel, remember the prophet Samuel. The bible said that young Samuel didnt know god. But he lived in the temple!! Knowing god is something much deeper.
    Cause if homosexuality is an urge…. wait a minute! Isnt lust(rape) an urge as well, and murder(hate) and greed etc… and wasnt all of the prophets and people god used for miracles in the bible straight. If homosexuality is alright and natural then why do they feel fear. After all god didnt give us a spirit of fear but of a sound mind. The only time adam and eve was fearful of god was not when they first had sex. Guess when?When they had SINNED! God created adam and eve…. wait eve was a man right…. WRONG! MALE(Adam) and FEMALE(eve).
    Bacon and Homosexuality may both be sins. But thats not my point. My point is that Homosexuality is not normal or natural. You could even say that about being addicted to pornography. Its normal to be turned on to a woman. But it is not normal in that way. The only difference is that jesus mentioned that even thinking of women lustfully is a sin. What about homosexuality? (im not going to type more about what i already said earlier, if you want to read about it scroll up :P) Bacon may not be normal either but in order to know why we can or cannot eat bacon, we need to understand and know god. A believer is not a person who believes the bible like his science book. But a believer should be a person who believes because he knows god. Anyway it seems that eating bacon may not be as bad as homosexuality.

  • Jesurgislac

    Even though it seems that Homosexuality or any sexual sins is more detestable than eating unclean food.
    It may seem that way to you, Anthony, but that’s because you have an unhealthy obsession with gay sex, and have got yourself all worked up about it. Calm down.
    Read Leviticus Homosexuality (death!!!) and unclean food (wash clothes and unclean till evening) which is more severe?
    Um, didn’t you just make the point that eating “unclean food” can kill you? Whereas two guys having sex together won’t die of it.
    But, you pointed to Leviticus, so let’s look at Leviticus:
    va-Yikra 18:22
    And to (a) male you (2nd person masc sing) will not lie down (euphemistic) from (comparative use) the lying-down (euph.)-of-(a)-woman! (An) improper mixing, it is!
    va-Yikra 20:13
    And (a) man who he shall lie down (euphemistic) to (a) male from (comparative use) the lying-down (euph.) -of-(a)-woman (an) improper mixing they did the two of them, they will surely die their blood(s) (is) in/with/by them.
    That’s an ugly and literal word-for-word translation of the original Hebrew.
    The word for “improper mixing” is toe-ay-vah. It is a ritual word, also used to describe ritually unclean food (Deuteronomy 14:3 – 14:8 specifically prohibits bacon, and 14:10 prohibits shellfish), worshippers of idols (Isaiah 14:24), marrying an idol worshipper (Malachi 2:11), sacrifices offered by a wicked person (Proverbs 21:27), and various other acts not acceptable in the ritual sphere. This has to do with ritual cleanliness/purity (which has nothing to do with washing) – it is the proper state for someone just about to offer a sacrifice.
    Not only may you not eat bacon, or any other food derived from pigs, to maintain ritual purity you may not even touch the dead carcass of a pig. And yes, the Bible condemns this in exactly the same terms. If you’re going to keep yourself ritually pure, you are required to refrain from having sex with men, Anthony – and you’re also required to refrain from eating shellfish, bacon, and hares.
    My point is that Homosexuality is not normal or natural.
    And you’re wrong about that: it’s both normal and natural.
    You asked “why do they feel fear?” Because people who have listened to religious fanatics will beat gay men to death: because religious fanatics who do not know their Bible will believe that while it’s okay to have an interest-bearing bank-account or eat bacon (both sins condemned in the Bible) it’s somehow not okay for a man to love another man – even though it’s both normal and natural.

  • Anthony

    If you believe that
    “If you’re going to keep yourself ritually pure, you are required to refrain from having sex with men, Anthony – and you’re also required to refrain from eating shellfish, bacon, and hares.”
    I dont know how to say it….but YOURE WRONG :p
    Mark 7:18-19 “are you so dull?”he asked.”Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? For it doesnt go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.”(in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean)
    John 8:43 Jesus said “why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire….”
    then we must search our own hearts. why something so obvious can still be debatable. All foods are clean! Stick to Jesus! You got that ‘urge’ from your own heart. From birth we were sinful because of adam and eve but through jesus we can finally be holy.

  • Jesurgislac

    I dont know how to say it….but YOURE WRONG :p
    Hee! Well, you seem to have managed to say it!
    Mark 7:18-19 “are you so dull?”he asked.”Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? For it doesnt go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.”
    Then plainly, semen is also okay: so, by this verse, male/male sex does not make either partner “unclean”. Thanks for clearing that up.

  • Anthony

    ewww “For it doesnt go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” it goes into the stomach as well.
    when the person is done trying to get the semen out. Does it ALL come out? But then he’ll do it again. So itll be still there. BUMMER.
    Mark 7:15 “Nothing outside a man can make him unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean’.”
    hmm yeah so if you have these homosexual thought coming out of you revealing your heart…. well then its also clear than… youre unclean. So its not the act but the urge thats the problem.

  • Anthony

    heres another cool one
    Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed,malice,deceit,lewdness,envy,slander,arrogance and folly All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean’”

  • Jesurgislac

    Anthony: For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed,malice,deceit,lewdness,envy,slander,arrogance and folly All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean’”
    But not homosexuality. So, that’s okay then.
    If Jesus had thought that men loving men – or women loving women – was such a terrible sin, why, do you suppose, didn’t he think to mention it? He didn’t. You, obsessed with the notion that it is – you don’t seem to be able to stop thinking about men having sex with men, and that suggests you yourself have these urges, which suggests to me that you badly need to get over the idea that if you have sex with a man that makes you “unclean”.
    But Jesus, to the contrary, said nothing about homosexuality one way or the other. If we assume he was an observant Jew who kept himself ritually pure, and that seems likely to be the case, he probably didn’t eat bacon or shellfish or hares or have sex with John the Beloved Disciple.
    But, as you’re not claiming to be an observant Jew, and you don’t care about keeping yourself ritually pure, the only reason for you to care so much about gay sex – as you obviously do care – is because you so badly want to have sex with a man, and are afraid of it.
    This organisation should be able to help you. Take care, and wishing you all the best in your future life, hopefully with another nice Christian man with whom you can have a fulfilled, loving, and sexual relationship – and eat shellfish. ;-)

  • Anthony

    hahahah
    you really think that im gay. Those thoughts were gone as quickly as getting turned on by britney spears before she did a concert. She really sucks. But thats not the issue.
    Jesus definitely did not eat shellfish and had gay sex because he was supposed to be ‘pure’. Remember that we can eat shellfish and manage not to get struck down by god only because of jesus who was the sacrificial lamb.(lamb symbolising purity)
    “But not homosexuality. So, that’s okay then.”
    read “sexual immorality”?
    Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, theft, murder, adultery, greed,malice,deceit,lewdness,envy,slander,arrogance and folly All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean’”
    and in Leviticus the male/male thing is under SEXUAL IMMORALITY
    Observant Jew? Im not even jewish im asian?!
    “….the only reason for you to care so much about gay sex – as you obviously do care – is because you so badly want to have sex with a man, and are afraid of it.”
    Is that what all gay people believe, that a person against them is just uptight and needs to get some male bonding going?
    I am firmly against the notion of people who believe that homosexuality is not a sin(when it sure is!)or think that homosexuality is different from murder and any other sexual sin. Next thing youll know people will think its ok for incest to occur. WHEN ITS CLEARLY NOT. If theres an site which says that ill be arguing like i am here.

  • wintermute

    > there is no greater sin; a sin’s a sin
    > Read Leviticus Homosexuality (death!!!) and unclean food (wash clothes and unclean till evening) which is more severe?
    So, is there a graduation of sins, or not? I’m confused…
    Of course, it might be that you have no idea what you’re talking about and just make stuff up hoping people won’t notice you’re continually contradicting yourself. But that’s uncharitable of me. I’m sure there’s a rational explanation that makes these sentences not contradict each other.

  • Jesurgislac

    you really think that im gay.
    Yes. You yourself admitted, in your first comment on this thread, that i have those thoughts. Now you’ve spent a lot of time and energy on this thread, focussing undistractably on one thing that obviously means so much to you that you believe is denied to you: sex with men.
    You need a nice friendly gay Christian group to support you, while you figure out that it’s okay for you to find a man you want to be with, and have a loving sexual relationship with him, while remaining a Christian. Honestly, Anthony, and I say this in all kindness; you will be happier acknowledging that the natural, normal feelings of sexual attraction that you have admitted you have towards men are just the way God made you, and you need to stop criticizing God’s creation and rejoice in how God made you, and other gay men like you.
    There’s no reason for you not to have that: there’s nothing in the Bible you can use to justify your avoidance of it. You’ve tried all down this thread to find Biblical justification for your beliefs, and you can’t.

  • Anthony

    What about the thoughts for women? Which is more solid. Hmm should i ignore that?
    I really am not gay. You on the other hand have fed that urge of homosexuality like feeding the urge for murder and any other sexual immorality which is why it seems so natural TO YOU. I on the other hand have not fed these thoughts and they have disappeared long ago. Which is also why i am totally against homosexuality because it just proves to me through my own experience that it isnt normal and can be ignored.
    And the there is no greater sin bit is wrong as i had a revelation in my heart and found the bottom verse
    Mark 7:18-19 “are you so dull?”he asked.”Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? For it doesnt go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.”(in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean)
    My theology has changed. All foods are clean! and all im saying is that a sin is a sin but we may be able to get an idea of the severity of it from the punishments in the old testament. After all isnt god a just god in both the new and old testaments.

  • Jesurgislac

    Anthony: I really am not gay. …. I on the other hand have not fed these thoughts and they have disappeared long ago.
    And yet, here you still are, obsessing about gay sex. So, obviously, “these thoughts” have not disappeared – you still think about having sex with a man, but your ideas about it have got quite warped with misuse. Go find a gay Christian support group and work through it, Anthony. Whether or not you decide to stay celibate the rest of your life, this kind of self-hate isn’t healthy.

  • wintermute

    > What about the thoughts for women?
    While I don’t share Jesurgislac’s enthusiasm for making assumptions about your sexuality, I’d like to point out that it’s possible to be attracted to both men and women; not everyone is either 100% totally heterosexual, or 100% totally homosexual. In fact some sociologists believe that the set of people who are only ever attracted to one sex or the other is far smaller than previously suspected, and that many people who categorise themselves as being either completely hetero- or completely homosexual in fact are occasionally atracted to people of their non-preferred sex.
    As I say, I’m not implying that you’re bisexual. I just want to point out that having feelings for women doesn’t neccessarily make you heterosexual. Especially if you’ve also had feelings for men…

  • Anthony

    im not obsessed with gay guys but passionately against homosexuality. Do you think that i spend time away from the computer constantly “obsessing” this? I am as much against homosexuality as any other sexual immorality because to me(and edvidence earlier)there is no difference. I do not hate gay guys but the sin of homosexuality.
    Seriously do you believe that anyone who dares challenge your beliefs are actually suppressing their own and want to be like you? I am here because this is what i enjoy doing. Challenging misinterpretations and what is against my belief.
    I dont hate myself. Do you hate yourself?

  • Anthony

    “I’d like to point out that it’s possible to be attracted to both men and women; not everyone is either 100% totally heterosexual, or 100% totally homosexual. In fact some sociologists believe that the set of people who are only ever attracted to one sex or the other is far smaller than previously suspected, and that many people who categorise themselves as being either completely hetero- or completely homosexual in fact are occasionally atracted to people of their non-preferred sex.”
    This is easily explained. This just proves that we have been made with the inclination to sin rather than being made pure and sin. Anyway doesnt god give us our own choice to choose him or the world. “youve got to choose this day who you’re going to serve….”. Heaven or Hell you choose. If he made us totally pure this is contradicting himself as then we dont have a say in it.

  • Anthony

    another thing
    “…not everyone is either 100% totally heterosexual, or 100% totally homosexual. In fact some sociologists believe that the set of people who are only ever attracted to one sex or the other is far smaller than previously suspected, and that many people who categorise themselves as being either completely hetero- or completely homosexual in fact are occasionally atracted to people of their non-preferred sex.”
    this is another edvidence which proves that we are not 100% in control of our thoughts and thats why jesus said
    Mark 7:21-23 “For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed,malice,deceit,lewdness,envy,slander,arrogance and folly All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean’”

  • Ray

    I’m curious about your answer to wintermute’s question – are you now saying that homosexuality is worse than other sins, or are you sticking to your original statement that ‘there is no greater sin’?

  • bulbul

    im not obsessed with gay guys but passionately against homosexuality
    To-MAY-to, to-MAH-to.

  • bulbul

    Oh and could everyone please stop mentioning bacon? I’m on a diet and it’s difficult enough…

  • Anthony

    There is no greater sin FOR US to judge. To me homosexuality is exactly the same as any other sexual immorality. After all it is under the same type of sin in Leviticus and the bible did not mention anything special or particular about it.
    All im saying is that eventhough we are unable to judge what sin is greatert than another(for if we judge which sin is greater, the is a possibility that we might ignore the “lesser sins” then we could be in trouble), but we might be able to HAVE AN IDEA about the degree of sin through the severity of the punishments.(its just my idea for a way to see the seriousness of a sin through the punishments)
    Ok maybe i didnt make myself clear. I am not obsessed in a confused or even positive way. I am straight against homosexuality and any other sexual immorality. To me sleeping with your sister and homosexuality are both immoral.

  • Anthony

    sorry mistake in typing “To me sleeping with your sister and homosexuality are both immoral.”
    not your sister but own sister(incest)is wrong

  • Jesurgislac

    Wintermute: While I don’t share Jesurgislac’s enthusiasm for making assumptions about your sexuality
    I’m making no assumptions. Anthony’s first comment on this thread concerned his sexual feelings about other men: all of his comments since have been (considering his sexual feelings about men) full of self-hatred and self-denigration about those feelings. That Anthony wants to argue that, even though he’s obsessed with gay sex and he has sexual feelings about men, he’s not gay, well, he can always walk away. The fact that he needs to stay here and deny his gayness to the same audience he admitted his sexual feelings about men to – well, I think he sounds like he’s just recently out of one of the fraudulent ex-gay programs – so recently that he hasn’t yet discovered that they don’t work. He still has those sexual feelings towards men, no matter how much he hates himself for it, and he always will.

  • cjmr’s husband

    sleeping with your sister and homosexuality are both immoral
    Clarification?
    Anthony sleeping with Anthony’s sister is immoral. (incest) (illegal, too!)
    Anthony sleeping with my sister is immoral. (adultery – she’s married)
    Anthony sleeping with my other sister is immoral. (may or may not still count as adultery, as she’s not married)
    (those last two are not illegal, but note that my father is a rabid ex-military conservative and has a large gun collection)
    This does not include Anthony’s marital status, which is irrelevent as far as Leviticus is concerned, if I remember correctly.

  • Anthony

    Ive got one sentence for you :P
    “sorry mistake in typing “To me sleeping with your sister and homosexuality are both immoral.”
    as i apologised before for the wrong message i sent across. I dont even have a sister

  • Anthony

    Ok now this is getting annoying. Ok I had a gay thought once it does mean that i have sinned according to the bible.(if i have a thought about murder i would have sinned as well and ones coming right now) But it doesnt make me gay. Im denying being gay because of my passionate dislike for homosexuality. I keep arguing that im not gay because you keep saying that i am. Well heres a fact you should have got a long time ago IM NOT GAY! get the message? maybe not? (by the way am i too insensitve to be gay) Sorry i know you think im attractive but its not going to work :)


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