Flashback post: "What's the score?"

The following was originally posted in March of 2005 (using actual scores from actual NCAA tournament games). I’m reposting it today because: A) it’s still true, and B) we’re still having this same argument at the paper and I’m still losing it. And I’m a sore loser.

The sports section is still safe. It is, in some ways, the last bastion of reality-based journalism.

Turn to the sports pages and there you can read the unambiguous results of a sporting event. You will find the final score and statistics for any given contest. Sports writers may inject into their stories a bit of personal opinion and local sympathy, but whatever biases they might have, the facts of the game are never in dispute. A sports writer may detest Bobby Knight and may say so explicitly in his story, but he won’t therefore go on to question whether it is in fact true that Texas Tech has advanced to the Sweet 16 of the men’s NCAA Tournament.

Contrast this with the alleged “hard” news sections of the newspaper. Here the facts are rarely stated as plainly or as confidently as “Texas Tech 71, Gonzaga 69.” Instead, all claims are treated as equally valid by virtue of the fact that someone is claiming them. News reporters consider it their responsibility to quote these claims accurately, not to evaluate them against any notion of knowable reality or anything as seemingly objective as a scoreboard.

Imagine trying to update your brackets for the NCAAs if your only source of information were, say, members of the White House Press Corps: “Texas Tech supporters were claiming victory Sunday after their regional quarterfinal game against Gonzaga. In Spokane, however, proponents of Gonzaga disputed this claim, noting that their team’s point total was equal to that of Kentucky’s and greater than that of Utah’s, and that both of these teams are advancing to the next round.”

It is sometimes said, in rants like this against the plague of he-said/she-said journalism, that news reporters behave like they’re covering a tennis match. But the real problem is that he-said/she-said journalists are nowhere near as responsible as sports writers. Sports reporters, first and foremost, have a duty as indifferent arbiters of the facts. That’s a duty that hard news journalists have long since abandoned.

The paper I work for today is running a Q&A from the Associated Press about “the facts” of the Terry Schiavo case. One of the questions asks if Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state. The Q&A does not provide an answer — it provides instead two, mutually exclusive answers: Some doctors say she is, but her parents’ doctors say she isn’t. That’s not a Q&A, that’s a Q&Q. “Who are we too say?” is not an answer.

The Schiavo case demonstrates the problem of partisan epistemology. We now have “red facts” and “blue facts.” Newspapers — hoping not to upset either faction of their potential circulation — have no intention in taking sides in such disputes. Thus two competing sets of claims, two very different sets of facts, two opposing narratives, are treated as equally valid. News reporters, unlike sports reporters, feel no responsibility to check the scoreboard, or even to acknowledge that there is a scoreboard. They tend to deny the possibility that a scoreboard might even exist.

In the case of Terry Schiavo there is such a scoreboard, and what it tells us is nowhere near as murky and ambiguous as the AP’s Q&Q or CNN’s vapid, incurious coverage would suggest. The facts of the matter have been hashed out, again and again and again, in court.

Congress and President Bush, like the absurd hypothetical Gonzaga fans above, would prefer that the facts were other than they are. They have, therefore, declared by legislative fiat that the scoreboard be reset to zero and that the game be replayed. Here, however, the sporting analogy breaks down. If the Red Raiders and Bulldogs were to replay their game, the result might be different. But the facts of the Schiavo case will not change, no matter how many times these facts are replayed and reviewed.

Dahlia Lithwick summarizes this congressional battle with the facts of the case in a must-read Slate article:

This congressional authority to simply override years of state court fact-finding brings with it other superpowers …

Members of Congress have apparently also had super-analytical powers conferred upon them, as well. Senate Majority Leader, and heart surgeon, Bill Frist felt confident last week — after reviewing an hour of videotape — in offering a medical diagnosis of Schiavo’s condition, blithely second-guessing the court-appointed neurologists who evaluated her for days and weeks. His colleagues are similarly self-appointed neurological experts. Years of painstaking litigation, assessment, and evaluation by state courts are dismissed by Tom DeLay as the activist doings of a “little judge sitting in a state district court in Florida.” Only the most extraordinary levels of congressional hubris could allow a group of elected citizens to substitute their personal medical, legal and ethical judgments for those of the doctors, judges and guardians who have been intimately involved with this heartbreakingly sad case for years.

The facts of the Schiavo case are indeed “heartbreakingly sad.” But just because they are so deeply sad does not mean we have the power to change them. Congress, with all of its power — even combined with all the power it can usurp from the judicial branch — cannot make this poor woman talk, or wake, or think again.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=752002772 Andrew Glasgow

    What should the journalists do in a situation where the matter is contentiously disputed, and the facts are not clear, though? In some controversial cases, such as climate change and evolution, who is and is not an expert on the scientific facts is abundantly clear. But in the case of Schiavo, this isn’t something that has been tested to exhaustion. Once in a while, doctors do make the wrong call about a person’s status, and second opinions are called for, and should be reported on.

  • Kevin Alexander

    You are right, doctors do make wrong calls but in this case ALL of the doctors were saying the same thing. The only second opinions were by people who knew nothing about the case so you’re kind of missing Fred’s point here.

  • Kevin Alexander

    You are right, doctors do make wrong calls but in this case ALL of the doctors were saying the same thing. The only second opinions were by people who knew nothing about the case so you’re kind of missing Fred’s point here.

  • Anonymous

    The second opinions in Ms. Schiavo’s case were already in, well before the hideous media circus was set into motion. The only people arguing that Ms. Schiavo had any chance of what would, materially, have been a return from the dead, were the doctors paid by Ms. Schiavo’s parents to argue from authority on their behalf.

  • Anonymous

    The second opinions in Ms. Schiavo’s case were already in, well before the hideous media circus was set into motion. The only people arguing that Ms. Schiavo had any chance of what would, materially, have been a return from the dead, were the doctors paid by Ms. Schiavo’s parents to argue from authority on their behalf.

  • Anonymous

    In the Schiavo case we observed “experts” who were called in to give an “opinion” which was congruent with a belief held by the people who hired them. The same thing can be seen in the area of climate science in which the funding for deniers comes from oil and coal interests. The same thing is also found over at the Heritage Foundation which can be counted upon to churn out a paper supporting any policy advocated by the Republican hierarchy even when it has to make things up to reach the desired conclusion. It all boils down to the same basic principal — Any pretext will serve as long as it appears to justify your intentions.

  • Anonymous

    You know Fred it sucks that the press has been whoring itself out to the highest bidder.

    But it really sucks for you because you are working as journalist.
    It must really hurt when there are so much things that need reporting and you can’t do it because the whole system has been rigged.

    Just try to do the right thing, you have always done that on this blog and because of that you have made the life of many people better.

  • http://musings.northerngrove.com/ JarredH

    Yes, and that’s part of the problem: journalists never question the “expertise” of many of these “experts.” They don’t stop to ask if the “expert’s” expertise is even relevant to the topic at hand. They don’t question whether the “expert’s” statements actually stand up to the scrutiny of other experts.

    David Boies made the following comment after the Proposition 8 trial:

    “In a court of law you’ve got to come in and you’ve got to support those opinions, you’ve got to stand up under oath and cross-examination,” Boies said. “And what we saw at trial is that it’s very easy for the people who want to deprive gay and lesbian citizens of the right to vote [sic] to make all sorts of statements and campaign literature, or in debates where they can’t be cross-examined.

    “But when they come into court and they have to support those opinions and they have to defend those opinions under oath and cross-examination, those opinions just melt away. And that’s what happened here. There simply wasn’t any evidence, there weren’t any of those studies. There weren’t any empirical studies. That’s just made up. That’s junk science. It’s easy to say that on television. But a witness stand is a lonely place to lie. And when you come into court you can’t do that.

    “That’s what we proved: We put fear and prejudice on trial, and fear and prejudice lost,” Boies said.

    If journalists took the time to research and scrutinize the “expert’s” claims the way that a courtroom lawyer has to, think what news stories would be like. And think of the party Fred would likely throw. ;)

  • Dea Syria

    “News reporters consider it their responsibility to quote these claims accurately, not to evaluate them against any notion of knowable reality or anything as seemingly objective as a scoreboard.”

    You mean something like this?

    –3 of 4 Gospels agree (well, the first one changed its mind later to agree too), Jesus rose from the dead.

    –There is no possible explanation to explain how a man could rise form the dead (nor any reason for hi to do so, since genetics makes it clear there was never a single human pair that could have fallen and needed redemption), and the addition of the resurrection to the Christian mythos sometime after the original composition of Mark is both paralleled by many other ancient resurrection myths (Zalmoxis is an interesting case) and can be be persuasively explained by well known psychological and folkloric processes.

  • Sammy

    “Red facts” and “blue facts;” or as I like to call them, biased innuendo and the truth, respectively.

  • Peter H. Coffin

    “The facts are not clear” is the point on which the entire discussion hinges. In the case at hand, the facts were clear to anyone qualified to judge the clarity of the facts. Which leave the “not clear” essentially depending on a miracle to happen to make the facts unclear. And “a miracle could happen” is a pretty shabby kind of reverse fatalism to depend on.

  • Anonymous

    Rare typo: “Who are we too say?” should be “Who are we to say?”

  • chris the cynic

    @Dea Syria

    I realize that Fred is a Christian. I realize that that fact remains regardless of whether or not he is discussing Christianity and so everything he writes can be accurately seen as the writings of a Christian and, presumably, a product of the the Christianity of which he is a part.

    What I am less clear on is why Christianity should be brought up in this thread. Why should Fred be called on to respond to a criticism of the Gospels when he is talking about reporting? There is no shortage of threads in which Fred discuses religion, this simply isn’t one of them. So what possible purpose could there be for bringing that up here?

  • Dea Syria

    I like Fred and this blog a lot. But he just refuses to turn the same critical eye which cuts through all other nonsense on his own beliefs. or perhaps he has. We know he doesn’t believe in hell. Perhaps he doesn’t believe in the resurrection either, or any other mythological concept and considers that his own moral philosophy is the essence of Christianity. In a way that is good, since I consider his morals to be far superior to those of Christianity. But it is annoying to me that he’s privileged this one little area where he tolerates hypocrisy. and that isn’t too strong a word. Its obvious that he doesn’t treat evidence about Christianity the way he does all other evidence. I can’t help my gadfly tendencies.

  • hapax

    I had a nice chat yesterday with the editor of one of our state’s two remaining newspapers* who said, “Yeah, we’re an advocacy publication, and we’re not going to pretend we’re not.”

    I found it rather refreshing, to be honest. While they certainly strove to be “fair”, they didn’t make any nonsense about being “balanced” — when they thought that someone was making a bogus claim on a matter of public concern, they characterized it as such, and not just in the editorials, either. They sought out authoritative expertise, not to set up a point / counter-point tit-for-tat, but to point out “the weight of the evidence supports this interpretation.”

    It allows me to look at their reporting critically, and judge for myself when they reported on a proposed tax or regulation or policy. After all, I knew pretty much already which side either newspaper was going to support on any given issue; but only one of them was up front in saying “and here’s WHY we think so.”

    *and perhaps not coincidentally, the only one to successfully monetize its online presence — he noted that while the ad revenues weren’t as great online as for the print edition, they still turned a profit, and that was pretty much driven through the lively discussion on the popular online-only opinion blogs

  • Anonymous

    Its obvious that he doesn’t treat evidence about Christianity the way he does all other evidence.

    Is he obliged to?

    I can’t help my gadfly tendencies.

    You’ve obviously got a gadfly in your bonnet about it.

    It is evident to me that Fred values his faith very highly. I don’t share that faith, but I’m not compelled to attack it at every turn. Why are you so compelled?

    Let us say that Fred’s faith vanishes under your relentless onslaught. Do you have any conception of the pain that people can feel when they deconvert? Why do you want to force Fred through that?

  • hapax

    But it is annoying to me that he’s privileged this one little area where he tolerates hypocrisy. and that isn’t too strong a word.

    So let me get this straight. You feel compelled every other thread or so to nag the writer of this blog to either justify himself to you or renounce his entire world view for the sake of sparing you annoyance.

    Do I have this correct?

    I can’t help my gadfly tendencies.

    Yet your continual indulgence of them in threads that have nothing to do with this topic annoy the heck out of me.

    So perhaps it would be more effective if you modelled the behavior you would like to see.

  • http://www.nightphoenix.com Amaranth

    Fred here is talking about objective facts…things that can in fact be proved one way or another. He’s annoyed because people choose to pretend they can’t.

    Christianity, or any religion for that matter, does not fall into this category. No one can definitively prove that Jesus rose from the dead, but neither can one prove, for absolute sure, that he did not.

    It is, frankly, sort of mean-spirited to keep calling Fred out on his religion every time he complains about fact-bending in the news. It would be like constantly demanding that Fred “objectively prove” that he loves his daughter, and scoff and say he’s not “applying the same standards” when he cannot provide you with indisputable, tangible evidence of that love. The same standards do not apply.

  • http://robyrt.livejournal.com/ Robyrt

    @Dea Syria: It appears you’ve missed the point of this article. Fred is discussing a situation where the weight of evidence is clearly on one side of a disputed issue, and the paper decides to publish the controversy instead of the facts. This is not the case with Christianity, or many other things. It’s impossible to conclude that Fred is hypocritically ignoring the widely accepted empirical evidence against the resurrection of Jesus, because there is no such evidence, and barring time travel it is not likely to be forthcoming. You seem to have missed the distinction between “Gonzaga 69, Texas Tech 71″ and “This parallels other similar accounts.”

  • chris the cynic

    Perhaps he doesn’t believe in the resurrection either

    I’d say he does.

    Fred, March 26, 2011:

    But let me tell you what I believe happened.

    I believe Jesus was taken down from the cross and buried in a grave that belonged to Joseph of Arimathea.

    And then, on the first day of the week, he rose again.

    So Christ Jesus died, yes, and was raised…

    -

    Also, his morals cannot be superior to those of Christianity, he is of Christianity and his morals are of him. He is a part of Christianity, and a representative of Christianity, every bit as much as any other self described Christian. His are Christian morals, by virtue of the simple fact that they are his.

    Finally, I’m not convinced that something being annoying to you is in any way justification for what you are doing. Fred maintaining certain parts of his identity in the face of what you consider to be compelling evidence that he should do otherwise annoys you. Ok. So why does that mean that you should then go on to be a gadfly, someone whose method of choice is to be annoying?

    I certainly see the benefit of gadflies. I see it in the works self described gadflies such as Socrates and Martin Luther King Jr., but those gadflies annoyed people for reasons far more compelling than “I am myself annoyed.” They afflicted on behalf of causes greater than ending their own annoyance.

  • Anonymous

    haven’t you considerd the option that Fred is so compasionate, analytic, smart funny, responsible because he IS a Christian.

    Not a christian because he followed traditions but because of his own free will?

    And that other people who say that they are christians but are using it to become richer and more powerfull are the ones that hurt him the most?

    Because as a Christian he has to love God more than himself and love other people as much as he loves himself.
    He is doing that because he choose to do that, he couldn’t be such a good blogger if he didn’t believe what he is saying.

  • http://musings.northerngrove.com/ JarredH

    haven’t you considerd the option that Fred is so compasionate, analytic, smart funny, responsible because he IS a Christian.

    I’m not the annoying one who keeps annoying Fred about his beliefs, but I did want to comment on this.

    I personally think Fred is all of those things because they are things that Fred values in himself and others. I think that statement would remain true whether Fred remains a Christian, or becomes a Buddhist, Sikh, or atheist.

    In short, while I think any good religion or philosophy makes a good framework to develop and strengthen one’s moral understanding, I think the potential and desire to actually do so come from within the person, not from the framework itself.

  • Anonymous

    Well I it was his own choice become a christian and that’s why he is doing it.

  • http://deird1.dreamwidth.org Deird

    There is no possible explanation to explain how a man could rise form the dead

    You mean… people don’t tend to rise from the dead?
    It’s not natural??
    It’d have to be supernatural???
    And it wouldn’t make sense if you didn’t believe in supernatural stuff????

    *shocked to my very core*

  • Lori

    I like Fred and this blog a lot. But he just refuses to turn the same critical eye which cuts through all other nonsense on his own beliefs. or perhaps he has.

    Fred has made it clear time & again that his beliefs are a huge part of who he is and the foundation of this blog, so I have no real idea what you mean when you say that you like him & the blog.

    One thing worth noting is that Fred doesn’t criticizes the beliefs of people who are minding their own business and not trying to control the lives of others. Fred states his opinions and beliefs, but he isn’t forcing himself on anyone.

    I don’t agree with Fred’s religious beliefs at all (atheist here) and yet I don’t see any hypocrisy problem. The fact that he doesn’t believe what you wish he believed does not hypocrisy make and Fred isn’t the one you’re making look bad.

  • https://profiles.google.com/ravanan101 Ravanan

    In addition to the sports section, the business section is pretty good too, and it usually talks about things more relevant to the world…Because the purpose of the business section is to help people make their money, and if it fails that, the paper loses a lot of its prestige.

  • Lori

    In addition to the sports section, the business section is pretty good too, and it usually talks about things more relevant to the world…Because the purpose of the business section is to help people make their money, and if it fails that, the paper loses a lot of its prestige.

    I have to disagree with you on this. The business sections of most papers have a definite right wing, free market, coddle the rich bias and they push it relentlessly. The Wall Street Journal is obviously the worst, but I don’t think other major papers are much better. And I have yet to see anyone lose their jobs for making crappy market predictions as long as they cheerlead for a bull market. That’s a big part of the reason we’re in the horrible mess we’re in.

  • Froborr

    Congratulations, Dea! You’ve worn out the last of my already-thin patience for your particular brand of bullshit.

    I like Fred and this blog a lot. But he just refuses to turn the same critical eye which cuts through all other nonsense on his own beliefs. or perhaps he has. We know he doesn’t believe in hell. Perhaps he doesn’t believe in the resurrection either, or any other mythological concept and considers that his own moral philosophy is the essence of Christianity. In a way that is good, since I consider his morals to be far superior to those of Christianity. But it is annoying to me that he’s privileged this one little area where he tolerates hypocrisy. and that isn’t too strong a word. Its obvious that he doesn’t treat evidence about Christianity the way he does all other evidence. I can’t help my gadfly tendencies.

    Translated from mono-troll:

    “This blog has sufficient traffic level and tolerance for trolling to make me feel important. But Fred has come to different conclusions from his life experience than I have from mine, and since any conclusion I arrive at is obviously correct, he must be intellectually deficient or lazy. Although his oft-stated reasons for not believing in Hell are based on his religious faith, rather than a rejection of the possibility of the supernatural, I’m going to pretend otherwise to make a point. Also, I know hypocrisy doesn’t enter into it, but that word’s likely to get a reaction, so I’ll use it and then pretend I actually mean a weaker form of it, when really I mean the much worse crime of Having a Different Opinion from Dea. Then I’m going to hold him to a particular epistemological standard and pretend that that’s not a matter of opinion and personal choice, either. Finally, I’ll pretend that being an asshole is a congenital condition in an attempt to dissuade criticism of my boorish behavior.”

  • Froborr

    That is AWESOME.

    Why aren’t there more papers like that?

  • http://semperfiona.livejournal.com Semperfiona

    The greasemonkey killfile doesn’t work on this site. I sent an email to the address of the developer, requesting him to add it, but he did not reply.

  • Froborr

    AFAIK Christianity has been a major part of Fred’s life since he was pretty young (I think he mentioned being heavily involved in church activities at least as long as 20 years ago, if not earlier), and I assume he was raised Christian, too, since he’s never mentioned converting.

    You cannot change that much of a person’s life without changing that person; I highly doubt alternate-universe non-Christian Fred would be recognizable as Fred. Would he still have Fred’s positive qualities? Maybe, maybe not. There’s no way of performing the experiment to find out.

    I mean, we could go round and round on the chicken-egg question forever: Does Fred value these traits because of some innate preference, or because he was taught to by his exposure to Christianity? Sans Christianity, would he have picked them up somewhere else?

    There is simply no way of knowing. But to give a personal example: I’m an atheist, my parents were atheists who raised me atheist; I have to go back to my grandparents on my mother’s side and my great-grandparents on my father’s to find actively religious ancestors (though a number of my cousins are religious). And yet I can identify specifically Jewish elements in my moral code and my attitude toward my atheism. I suspect that if my family were Christians a couple of generations back, those elements would be different, because the morals my parents absorbed from their parents, who absorbed them from religious sources, would be different.

  • Froborr

    AFAIK Christianity has been a major part of Fred’s life since he was pretty young (I think he mentioned being heavily involved in church activities at least as long as 20 years ago, if not earlier), and I assume he was raised Christian, too, since he’s never mentioned converting.

    You cannot change that much of a person’s life without changing that person; I highly doubt alternate-universe non-Christian Fred would be recognizable as Fred. Would he still have Fred’s positive qualities? Maybe, maybe not. There’s no way of performing the experiment to find out.

    I mean, we could go round and round on the chicken-egg question forever: Does Fred value these traits because of some innate preference, or because he was taught to by his exposure to Christianity? Sans Christianity, would he have picked them up somewhere else?

    There is simply no way of knowing. But to give a personal example: I’m an atheist, my parents were atheists who raised me atheist; I have to go back to my grandparents on my mother’s side and my great-grandparents on my father’s to find actively religious ancestors (though a number of my cousins are religious). And yet I can identify specifically Jewish elements in my moral code and my attitude toward my atheism. I suspect that if my family were Christians a couple of generations back, those elements would be different, because the morals my parents absorbed from their parents, who absorbed them from religious sources, would be different.

  • http://profiles.google.com/scyllacat Priscilla Parkman

    How about putting in an FAQ or 101: We don’t need to have the argument every time about why we don’t have peanut butter in the chocolate or chocolate in the peanut butter. Science is not Religion… and strangely enough, Religion is also not Science. Just like Ethics is not Behavior Modification, and Family is not a Socialist State. The same language, methods, behaviors, and rationales do not shift from one to another.

  • http://profiles.google.com/scyllacat Priscilla Parkman

    How about putting in an FAQ or 101: We don’t need to have the argument every time about why we don’t have peanut butter in the chocolate or chocolate in the peanut butter. Science is not Religion… and strangely enough, Religion is also not Science. Just like Ethics is not Behavior Modification, and Family is not a Socialist State. The same language, methods, behaviors, and rationales do not shift from one to another.

  • cjmr

    *has really missed Froborr and hapax*

  • BC

    My favorite newsy thing during the Schiavo circus was Fred Barnes explaining to Morton Kondrake that HE couldn’t accept any diagnosis of permanent vegetative state until HE had seen an MRI – not even understanding that Terri Schiavo could not have an MRI because of her thalamic stimulator implant. Now, as far as I know, Fred Barnes and I have the same medical training – zilch (although I have been certified 1st Aid for years, so maybe I have more) – but here was Fred pontificating on what he could and could not accept and Mort Kondrake nodding either in agreement or in aw. That was really strange.

  • http://twitter.com/machallboyd Matt Boyd

    How to communicate uncertainty is taught in journalism schools, or at least was in mine. The quintessential example is global warming. The ultimate Platonic truth of how much man affects observed climate change is unknown and unknowable. There will always be something we don’t know. If a journalist presents this uncertainty as meaning that both sides in the climate change “debate” have an equally valid claim, because who REALLY knows, he is doing his readers a grave disservice. The correct thing to do is accurately describe the level of uncertainty and which side has the preponderance of evidence in its favor. The Schiavo case was a similar situation.

  • Rikalous

    OK. Now I admit I’m an agnostic from a nonreligious background, so my knowledge of Christianity is pretty shaky, but wasn’t Jesus pretty firm on the subject of “Have compassion even for those who show you hatred”? Isn’t that what all that famous “turn the other cheek” stuff is about? How is it even possible to have better morals than “Love your enemy”? What are you hoping to gain from this, anyway? Why would abandoning faith in the person who told people to turn the other cheek improve Fred’s life or anything else?

  • https://profiles.google.com/ravanan101 Ravanan

    Huh, I always thought it was the Washington Post who had that title. Strong contender at least then.

    I read the LA Times myself, which I believe to be a “major paper” though I could be wrong on that. My experience with this particular paper aren’t especially…pandering to that element. Prominent writers of their’s include David Lazarus*, whose recent articles include “With AT&T’s proposed takeover of T-Mobile, consumer and market benefits are an illusion” and “Product-safety database a hard-fought victory for consumers”; Michael Hiltzik** who wrote “Neediest and sickest would pay the price under GOP budget plan” and “Viewers will pay if Fox TV gets affiliates to give up more revenue”; And their market analyst Tom Petruno is the sort to say, “Markets…by definition…aren’t prepared for out-of-the-blue shocks.” YMMV?

    _____
    * http://www.latimes.com/business/la-columnist-dlazarus,0,3677159.columnist
    **http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-columnist-mhiltzik,0,3041600.columnist

  • ako

    I can’t help my gadfly tendencies.

    So you’re typing due to an uncontrollable episode of Chronic Gadfly Disorder? Or are you actually choosing to type the particular statements that annoy people? Did you voluntarily type those particular words and then hit the Post button, or not? If you did, then grow up and take some responsibility.

    There are a lot of statements that can potentially antagonize people. There are some statements that can be expected to antagonize people, such as calling a devout Christian a hypocrite because he cares about factual evidence and hasn’t discarded every supernatural aspect of Christianity. If you think the statement is worth antagonizing people for, then comment and be prepared to take the consequences (namely a number of people vehemently disagreeing with you and being annoyed). If you don’t think the consequences are worth it, then don’t post.

    But posting something obviously antagonistic and then whining “I can’t help it!” when people get upset is just pathetic.

  • Persephone

    I’m sure that Fred would be an awesome, insightful, and compassionate man no matter what his religion or lack of religion. Religion has no exclusive claim to compassion.

  • chris the cynic

    It seems to me that what I said could be misinterpreted. I’m not saying that anyone has done that, but I’m told one should never assume.

    Christianity is made up of people. There are buildings and texts that we label as Christian, but buildings and texts don’t define what we call Christianity. The uses of those buildings and the interpretations of those texts do to a certain extent, but those things come from the humans doing the using and/or interpreting. It all comes back to people.

    This is especially true when it comes to something like morals. Parchment doesn’t have morals. Papyrus doesn’t have morals. People do. The morals of Christianity are necessarily the morals of Christians. So long as Fred is a Christian his morals, whatever they may be, will be a subset of Christian morals.

    The same is true for any Christian*, which is one of the reasons I’m wary of saying much of anything about the morals of Christianity. Fred’s morals are the morals of Christianity, Lahaye’s morals are the morals of Christianity, that range of viewpoints makes talking about the morals of Christianity unwieldy.

    Since my first post it seems that the discussion of this tangent has turned more to the question of what effect Christianity has had on Fred, and to a lesser extent I think there’s some thought about what effect it continues to have.

    I don’t think he would abandon his morals if he switched to another religion or left religion altogether. That said, I do think that his morals are pretty closely tied to his religion. I looked back for some relevant quotes and kind of lost myself in the archives. Reading “Hold on to the good,” in which Fred quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:21 in response to being ranted at over the phone by Robert’s aunt, reading “Sex & Money, part 1″ where he talked about how a professor in the graduate program in Christian economic development helped him through a crisis he had over taking his first job out of college, reading “Establishment” in which he said that his primary objection to a violation of the separation of church and state was, “a religious objection — a sectarian, Baptist objection, in fact“, and generally getting lost in the comments. (Did you know that River Tam could kill Nicolae Carpathia with her mind?) I also cried. (Still am.) Anyway, I didn’t really stay focused enough to present a coherent argument here (mostly because I didn’t stay focused at all), but I think that there is evidence that Fred having the moral framework he does is very much a product of his being a Christian. He may still have been just as compassionate raised in a different setting, but he would not be the Fred we know.

    For whatever it’s worth, “Hold onto the good” has probably the single clearest statement of Fred’s moral framework available:

    “Love your neighbor” is the one thing you can’t afford to get wrong. Get everything else right but that wrong and you’re still nothing and nowhere and no one. Get that right and you can get everything else wrong and still be OK.

    -

    *I considered putting some kind of caveat in about recent converts, but I don’t think one is necessary. Conversion is not something done independently of one’s morals. A convert must believe there is at least some level of consistency between their morals and the thing they are converting to otherwise they would reject conversion as something prohibitively morally wrong.

    -

    How many parentheticals are too many?

  • http://www.nightphoenix.com Amaranth

    You make many good points, however…

    “The morals of Christianity are necessarily the morals of Christians.”

    This isn’t always true. Not all people who profess to be Christians are necessarily following Christianity, because the morals of Christians are based upon the life and moral teachings of one particular man: Jesus of Nazareth. Insomuch as one’s actions and decisions mirror those that Jesus would have made, from what may be gleaned from the writings of the gospels and the New Testament, one can accurately describe oneself as “Christian”.

    Therefore I can say that our Fred is a Christian, because he acts like Jesus acts in the writings about him. Fred Phelps, on the other hand, whatever he may say about himself, is not a Christian by any stretch of the word.