Moral men and immoral society and the death of bin Laden

Killing Osama bin Laden Is Legal,” Matthew Yglesias notes:

… What went down is fine in both international and domestic law. … The use of military force is plainly authorized by U.N. Security Council Resolution 1368 …  and this has all been reaffirmed since bin Laden’s death by the Security Council and the secretary-general of the United Nations.

The raid on bin Laden’s compound in Abbottabad was carried out unilaterally, but it occurred with the full consent and sanction of international law and multilateral institutions. “I am very much relieved by the news that justice has been done,” U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said. It is simply not the case, as the great British theologian N.T. Wright regrettably asserts, that this was a lawless act of cowboy vigilanteism. The raid was legal. It had the sanction of international law and was conducted in accord with that law.

This operation was also conducted, to the extent that we can tell from the account emerging from various reports, with a commendable and largely successful effort to abide by the ethics of law as described by those “just war” principles we’re always discussing here — the same principles President Barack Obama discussed in his lecture on Reinhold Niebuhr in Oslo (on the occasion of being given the Nobel Peace Prize).

That Niebuhrian approach was reflected again in the president’s remarks announcing the successful completion of the raid on bin Laden, “justice has been done.” Justice, Niebuhr said, is the concern of “immoral society.” It is a lesser thing than the law of love or the law of Christ that constitutes the ideal for the moral individual:

From the perspective of society the highest moral ideal is justice. From the perspective of the individual the highest ideal is unselfishness. Society must strive for justice even if it is forced to use means, such as self-assertion, resistance, coercion and perhaps resentment, which cannot gain the moral sanction of the most sensitive moral spirit. …

And also:

The weaknesses of the spirit of love in solving larger and more complex problems become increasingly apparent as one proceeds from ordinary relations between individuals to the life of social groups. If nations and other social groups find it difficult to approximate the principles of justice, as we have previously noted, they are naturally even less capable of achieving the principle of love, which demands more than justice. The demand of religious moralists that nations subject themselves to “the law of Christ” is an unrealistic demand, and the hope that they will do so is a sentimental one. …

What Niebuhr means there in Moral Man and Immoral Society by “larger and more complex problems” is the geometrical complications that arise when the cheek that is struck is not one’s own.

Another British bishop, Rowan Williams, exhibited the appropriately “sensitive moral spirit” Niebuhr describes when he said following the death of bin Laden, “I think that the killing of an unarmed man is always going to leave a very uncomfortable feeling because it doesn’t look as if justice is seen to be done in those circumstances.”

So where Wright accuses the U.S. of behaving like a character from an old Hollywood western, Williams complains that the soldiers conducting this raid did not behave more like Gary Cooper in High Noon, keeping their guns holstered until the bad guys draw theirs. But the pageantry of a duel is not what is ethically required of soldiers. Soldiers are forbidden — ethically and legally — from targeting noncombatants, but enemy combatants do not cease to be combatants when they are caught off guard, when their back is turned or when their weapon has been set down out of reach.

What the good bishops are struggling with, I think, was expressed in more temperate and thoughtful terms by Christof Heyns and Martin Scheinin, the UN special rapporteurs, respectively, on “extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions” and on “the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism.” In a joint statement following the raid that killed bin Laden, they requested assurances that the raid was, as the secretary-general had said, conducted in accordance with international law:

Acts of terrorism are the antithesis of human rights, in particular the right to life. In certain exceptional cases, use of deadly force may be permissible as a measure of last resort in accordance with international standards on the use of force, in order to protect life, including in operations against terrorists. However, the norm should be that terrorists be dealt with as criminals, through legal processes of arrest, trial and judicially decided punishment.

Actions taken by States in combating terrorism, especially in high profile cases, set precedents for the way in which the right to life will be treated in future instances.

In respect of the recent use of deadly force against Osama bin Laden, the United States of America should disclose the supporting facts to allow an assessment in terms of international human rights law standards. For instance it will be particularly important to know if the planning of the mission allowed an effort to capture Bin Laden.

It may well be that the questions that are being asked about the operation could be answered, but it is important to get this into the open.

That matter of whether “the mission allowed an effort to capture bin Laden” is of particular importance to clarify whether or not the accusations made by Williams, Wright and others have any merit. The U.S. response seems to be on two levels. At the most basic level, the answer is yes, the mission allowed for an effort to capture bin Laden. That seems to have been one factor in the decision to go with “the McRaven option” — the riskier, boots-on-the-ground approach devised by Navy Vice Adm. William H. McRaven. The Navy SEALs conducting the raid were instructed to capture bin Laden if he “conspicuously surrendered.”

But the raid was to be conducted by Navy SEALs, meaning that this was not primarily intended as the “legal process of arrest, trial and judicially decided punishment.” It was a military operation in which bin Laden was to be regarded as an enemy combatant rather than as a fugitive criminal. As such, the salient point for those who planned and conducted this raid was not whether or not bin Laden had drawn his six-shooter at the instant the SEALs confronted him, but rather the presence there of documents and hard-drives containing his plans for future attacks against civilians in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Now one can certainly argue, as many great saints have throughout the centuries, that there ought to be no such thing as soldiers. One can argue, in other words, for an absolute pacifism, for “the principle of love, which demands more than justice” and which forbids all coercion, violence and killing. I respect the coherence of that principled stance, even while agreeing with Niebuhr about the practicality of it and the injustices that arise from that impracticality. (It’s possible that Niebuhr and I are both wrong about that. But our just war position is also coherent and principled and, sadly, I think we’re right.)

But there is a difference between criticizing this action against bin Laden on the basis of absolute pacifism and attempting to apply that same critique while still allowing for the legitimacy and necessity of soldiers and the force they bring to bear. Once you accept that legitimacy and necessity, it is disingenuous to complain that soldiers behave like soldiers rather than like saints. If you accept that wars must sometimes be fought and that soldiers must sometimes kill, then the question becomes how to restrain the evil of war and how to ensure that soldiers are able to behave morally even in the crucible of conflict.

This is where the principles of the just war tradition become vitally important — both those principles governing whether or not war is justified and those governing its just conduct. The raid on bin Laden’s compound in Abbottabad, I believe, was planned and conducted with a serious effort to comply with both of those sets of principles.

I admire and respect N.T. Wright greatly. I am deeply grateful to him for several books that have enriched my thinking, my faith and my life. But his argument that this raid was unjustifiable is simply wrong. The series of analogies he presents do not correspond to the facts of the matter. They would only be relevant if we completely disregarded the existence and importance of those U.N. resolutions and authorizations that Matt Yglesias points toward. That’s an odd thing to disregard in the midst of what amounts to an argument for such resolutions and authorizations. “By what right?” Wright asks, but then unfortunately doesn’t seem interested in listening to the answer.

Bob Woodward’s account of the planning of the raid illustrates that it was both planned and conducted with serious regard for military ethics and an effort to comply with the rules of just conduct:

A “pattern of life” study of the compound by intelligence agencies showed that about a dozen women and children periodically frequented it.

Specific orders were issued to the SEALs not to shoot the women or children unless they were clearly threatening or had weapons. (During the mission, one woman was killed and a wife of bin Laden was shot in the leg.) Bin Laden was to be captured, one official said, if he “conspicuously surrendered.”

The presence of noncombatant women and children in the compound required a riskier and more dangerous operation than less discriminate approaches, such as destroying the entire compound with bombs or missiles. That’s a general rule: The greater the pains taken to ensure the safety of noncombatants, the greater the risk and danger assumed by the soldiers taking such pains. The Navy SEALs know this. It’s their job to know this. They seem to have accepted such greater risk when dealing with the women and children in the compound, but not with the men who apparently were to be slain quickly unless they “conspicuously” surrendered.

Yes, that’s killing the enemy. And yes, Jesus said we must love our enemies. But again, love demands more than justice, and mere justice is what concerns us when considering the principles of just war for our immoral society. Based on Woodward’s account and others like it, the planners of this raid and the SEALs who carried it out seem to have abided by those principles admirably.

The special rapporteurs are correct that apart from “exceptional cases … the norm should be that terrorists be dealt with as criminals, through legal processes of arrest, trial and judicially decided punishment.” I don’t think it’s difficult to argue that Osama bin Laden constituted an exceptional case, but I also share their concern that such exceptional cases not “set precedents” that would supplant the norm of legal processes in most cases.

That concern is, I think, valid. But the concern that this action was illegal — or the accusation that it was obviously illegitimate — cannot be squared with the facts of the matter. As Matt Yglesias put it, “There’s just nothing there” to support that accusation.

  • Kukulan

    How did he not cause it?

    While I’m sure Russ Williams has his own response to this, I would say:

    * bin Laden didn’t write the PATRIOT Act;* he didn’t vote for it;

    * he didn’t sign it into law;* he didn’t set up the Department of Homeland Security;* he didn’t invade Afghanistan;* he didn’t claim that Iraq was chock-a-block full of weapons of mass destruction;* he didn’t invade Iraq;* and with his death, none of those things are going away.

    Osama bin Laden and the November 11 attacks were used as an excuse by the people who did do all those things, but attributing them all to bin Laden or al-Qaeda is like blaming World War II on Marinus van der Lubbe (the guy who started the Reichstag fire) or World War I on Gavrillo Princip (the guy who shot Archduke Ferdinand of Austria). Those who responded to the events did so in their own way and have to take responsibility for their own actions.

  • Dina

    How much do we know about the woman who was killed? I’m disappointed nobody’s interested in her death.

  • Dina

    Or in the *circumstances* surrounding her death, I mean.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    @4da2bb18059af4616699250b9c308556:disqus

    How much do we know about the woman who was killed? I’m disappointed nobody’s interested in her death.

    Really? It’s pretty much par for the course, even more so given that she was a foreigner who was associated with a terrorist. We’re not even keeping count of the civilians killed by “the good guys” in the War on Terror (sic.), so I’m not at all surprised about this particular disinterest in one more count of “collateral damage”.

  • Anonymous

    Great article. Who is this new guest blogger? ;-)

  • xian-x

    Greenwald responds to Matt Yglesias’s assertion that the killing was legal by noting that the theories that make the killing legal also make it legal for Libya to kill President Obama.

    http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/statuses/67580947582812160

  • Anonymous

    Wow. I never really comment, mostly because I tend to agree with Fred and the general popular sentiment here, but this? Really?

    OBCD Epidemic, back on the first page, largely makes my case for me. I would like to add, though, that just war theory has emerged and been developed as a way of thinking about wars between ancient and medieval European nation-states and it’s at best a mistake, and at worst terribly disingenuous, to apply it to this new invention, the “war on terror”; one might as well speak of the ius ad bellum of the War on Drugs.

    I also don’t see how the only coherent counterargument would come from an extremely pacifist position. That’s setting up a false dichotomy. People uncomfortable with this aren’t saying “it is unacceptable that some soldiers get into a firefight and shoot a person they intended to capture in a confusing situation”. They — we — are making a multitude of valid points about the US President’s unmitigated glee about an extrajudicial killing, and about how this is said to constitute “justice”.

  • Anonymous

    (I should also note that “ancient and medieval European nation-states” was poor wording on my part; the nation-state as we understand it today is a later invention. Still, I hope the general meaning is clear: we’re talking about entities with territories, governments or rulers, populations, militaries, material interests, etc. What is the population of “terrorism”?)

  • Guest-again

    ‘What is the population of “terrorism”?’

    There is something of an answer to this, from a certain jurist John Yoo.

    From the introduction of an article -


    What is particularly chilling and revealing about this is that
    John Yoo was a key architect post-9/11 Bush Administration legal
    policy. As a deputy assistant to then-Attorney General John
    Ashcroft, John Yoo authored a number of legal memos arguing for
    unlimited presidential powers to order torture of captive suspects,
    and to declare war anytime, any where, and on anyone the President
    deemed a threat.’Meaning that the population of terrorism is whatever the President wants it to be.And leading to this, verbatim, exchange of what else the President can done when fighting whatever it is the President determines need to be fought against, like the population of terrorism -’
    Cassel: If the President deems that he’s got to
    torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the
    person’s child, there is no law that can stop him?Yoo: No treaty.Cassel: Also no law by Congress. That is what you
    wrote in the August 2002 memo.Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks
    he needs to do that.’

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11488.htmThe article is from 2006, by the way. Five years on, the current President has apparently decided that targeting American citizens for death without any due process (or even the ability to receive due process – this process is supposed to be kept secret in the interest of national security) allows the United States to better ensure a just war against the population of terrorism.

  • Guest-again

    Man, is it just me, or is the formatting just getting worse and worse?

  • Anonymous

    It’s interesting that in the case, I find Greenwald’s assertions more disappointing than Freds. (Actually, mostly his commenters, who find Glens analysis disappointing because it isn’t MORE strident.) All of this strikes me as very “No True Scotsman.” I mean – there’s a lot of people talking about how the rule of law (or compassion) means nothing if those rules are not absolute. To me, this seems essentially teleological. (That is, there is no REASON, beyond some slippery-slope assertions, for these principles to be absolute – that is Just How It Should Be.)

    So, all of the “we shouldn’t have shot him” crowd seems to get tied up in knots because (and this is a direct quote from Greenwald’s comment section) “Principled people do not betray their principles.” If ever there was a fake Scotsman!

    If you can’t imagine a situation in which you would cast your principles aside – that doesn’t mean you’re “a principled person.” It means you don’t have a very good imagination. This crowd is not in the unenviable position of having to actually balance the deontological gordian knot of “do no harm / do justice / bring home as many SEALS as possible” so in that sense, the argument is valuable only in that armchair moral philosophers armed with a clear conscience and a few syllogisms can always make the right decision. But I don’t believe that it follows that because we are occasionally willing to violate a principle, that we have never “truly” held that principle. The classic “lying to the Nazi’s” example goes well here.

    Perhaps that is why I find it difficult to get upset about killing Osama. I’ve no doubt that he had it coming. Anybody who argues he WASN’T a bad guy who didn’t “deserve” it is disengaged from the strictures of “the real world” to an extent I both admire and detest. But I know that this would have been my limit. If he’d killed MY family, if I was putting MY people in harms way to bring him to justice, if the decision was on ME, and I was going to have to look some SEALS daughter in the eye and tell her that her daddy wasn’t coming home because I thought it was more important that the monster got a fair trial.

    If I had to make that decision, I think I’d have made the exact same decision. Take him alive if he wants, but otherwise shoot the bastard in the face.

  • Anonymous

    And? If you’re having a war with someone, you’ve got to expect that they might try to kill you. If Pakistan passed a law saying they were at war with the US and would try to kill Obama, that’s …. kinda to be expected right? Saddam explored assassinating GWB1 during Desert Storm.

  • Dan Audy

    I see a major issue with how people are discussing the assassination of Bin Laden by conflating legality, morality, and necessity. I’m not upset in the least that Bin Laden was killed and if it had been my responsibility to make the decision I’m pretty sure I would have done the same thing Obama did (possibly with a greater focus on capturing even if it risked the lives of the SEALs). However having made that decision I would still be forced to acknowledge that it was an illegal act under both American and International law and that ordering the murder of another person is immoral even if they deserve it or it protects other people.

    Sometimes we are forced to act in illegal or immoral ways out of necessity. Very few people can perfectly maintain a moral system because morality is broad and universal and real life contains unique events that may except that. Sometimes the law impedes justice and must be ignored to achieve necessary ends. However one needs to accept both the legal and moral consequences of acts rather than trying to post hoc justify them as being acceptable.

  • hf

    would still be forced to acknowledge that it was an illegal act

    How do you figure?

    The US prohibition against just shooting all escaping criminals comes from Tennessee v Garner. The text of that decision says this:

    if the suspect threatens the officer with a
    weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a
    crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious
    physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape,
    and if, where feasible, some warning has been given.

  • Launcifer

    I was under the impression that the woman wasn’t killed, at least given reporting from the BBC and other British news sources. I though she’d been injured in the leg when she attempted to step into the line of fire. So, er, I’m guess I’m now wondering which of those is misinformation.

  • Kukulan

    If you can’t imagine a situation in which you would cast your principles
    aside – that doesn’t mean you’re “a principled person.”
    It means you don’t have a very good imagination.

    Or, perhaps, you have a good enough imagination to realise there were other ways of dealing with the problem that didn’t involve abandoning those principles. I mean, this wasn’t in the middle of a war zone, the SEALS had secured control of the entire compound for forty-odd minutes and the suspect was unarmed. How, exactly, was it necessary to shoot him in the face? The classic “lying to the Nazis” (presumably about the whereabouts of Anne Frank’s family) works because the consequences of not lying are clearly worse than the consequences of lying. How are the consequences of capturing bin Laden and putting him on trial worse than the consequences of shooting him in the face?

    It’s not so much that principled people don’t betray their principles, it’s more principled people don’t betray their principles on a whim or because they’re momentarily inconvenient. If they do, then what they had weren’t principles, they were just a form of camouflage to fool others.

    You’re right, most arguments for principles, ethics, morality and ideas such as the rule of law are teleological. They’re about what end state do we wish to achieve and how do we need to behave to get there. The arguments for occasionally violating principles are also teleological; they justify the breach by pointing out that maintaining the principle would not lead to (or preserve) the desired end state, but would instead make things worse.

    One of the terms being used to describe this action is “cowboy”. Now this may be a slur on the guys that drive cattle from one place to another, but these days it’s generally used to describe someone who acts in a reckless or unscrupulous manner with no regard to the consequences. One of the things about maintaining the rule of law is that even those opposed to the system are willing to go along with it because they expect to be dealt with fairly. It means that even terrorists and criminals buy into the system enough to make it work. That can prove invaluable in hostage situations and the like. Now, however, any potential hostge taker knows that if they are caught unarmed, the authorities might arrest them and treat them according to the rule of law or they might just shoot them in the face because, what the hell, they feel like it. That encourages such people to fight it out to the bitter end because they’re dead either way and they might as well take as many hostages with them as possible. This is generally not regarded as a desirable end state. Well, not by those who want to preserve the lives of as many hostages as possible and would like to resolve whatever grievances underlie the conflict in a manner where the only violence is verbal.

    This also applies to military matters. One of the reasons for accepting enemy surrenders is because (i) it encourages other enemy combatants to surrender since that is a viable alternative to fighting it out to the death, thus reducing the risk to your own people; and (ii) it means the enemy is willing to reciprocate, again saving your own people. Cowboys, however, ignore all that because it’s momentarily inconvenient and the consequences will be someone else’s problem.

  • http://www.blogger.com/home?pli=1 Coleslaw

    I was under the impression that the woman wasn’t killed, at least given reporting from the BBC and other British news sources. I though she’d been injured in the leg when she attempted to step into the line of fire. So, er, I’m guess I’m now wondering which of those is misinformation.

    Bin Laden’s Wives Are All ALive; One May Have Identified Him

  • http://www.blogger.com/home?pli=1 Coleslaw

    I was under the impression that the woman wasn’t killed, at least given reporting from the BBC and other British news sources. I though she’d been injured in the leg when she attempted to step into the line of fire. So, er, I’m guess I’m now wondering which of those is misinformation.

    Bin Laden’s Wives Are All ALive; One May Have Identified Him

  • Dan Audy

    [quote]

    How do you figure?

    The US prohibition against just shooting
    all escaping criminals comes from Tennessee v Garner. The text of that
    decision says this:

    if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given.[/quote]Just because they have commited violent offenses is not justification for shooting a person who is unarmed and unable to escape, particularly not in a lethal manner. If Bin Laden had been firing on the SEALs or attempting to acquire a weapon then obviously shooting him (in the arm or leg if possible) would be acceptable. However shooting an unarmed elderly man who is vastly outnumbered by highly armed and trained soldiers is completely unnecessary regardless of how terrible he is or what crimes he has committed.However my original reference to illegality had more to do with the fact that the executive does not have the constitutional right to declare someone guilty and sentence them to death without a trial. As well the raid is in violation of international law because you can’t simply go kill someone in another country you aren’t at war with. Obviously working with the Pakistani government to capture Bin Laden from a law enforcement perspective was impossible (thus why this is necessary despite being illegal) but is a prime example of the US behaving as if laws only apply to lesser countries.

  • xian-x

    @TheFaithfulStone:disqus

    > And?

    And, my point is that I think many people who are defending the killing of OBL would think it a violation of international law if a foreign military stormed the home of G.W. Bush or President Obama and killed half a dozen people. Perhaps, you wouldn’t consider such an action illegal. If so, my hat’s off to you for your consistency. Greenwald has been very careful to say only that *IF* OBL was shot after captured, then the killing was illegal. Beyond that, he’s not asserting one way or the other. Moreover, if you go back and look at my first post, I myself am not asserting that the killing was legal or illegal. My primary objection is to Fred’s conclusion that anyone who is concerned that the killing might have been illegal must be confused about the facts. There’s still some debate about the facts, and Fred’s decision to defend the killing has me a bit perplexed.

    You mention a number of informal logical fallacies (True Scotsman, slippery slope). I’d like to mention another: the straw man.

    > there’s a lot of people talking about how the rule of law (or compassion) means nothing if those rules are not absolute.

    I might have overlooked something, but I don’t think anyone here has made such an argument. I do have a question, though. When you used the phrase “the rule of law (or compassion)” were you suggesting that people here are equating the two of those? Are you equating the two?

    > Anybody who argues he WASN’T a bad guy…is disengaged from the strictures of “the real world”

    Again, has anyone here asserted this?

    My own point about the “rule of law” is that conforming to it risks that sometimes “a bad guy” goes free. We don’t catch all murderers. We can’t convict some of those we do. You might consider those facts to be reasons for abandoning some of the US’s traditional constitutional protections. I do not. Note: this is NOT an argument that there can never be circumstances under which one might act against one’s principles, but I do think one shouldn’t void a law simply because it sometimes has undesirable outcomes.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    @TheFaithfulStone

    Anybody who argues he WASN’T a bad guy who didn’t “deserve” it is disengaged from the strictures of “the real world” to an extent I both admire and detest.

    Please show where we’ve been arguing that. I, for one, explicitly said that I accept that he was an evil man, but regardless of moral character you don’t fucking shoot unarmed people in the head.

    If he’d killed MY family, if I was putting MY people in harms way to bring him to justice, if the decision was on ME, and I was going to have to look some SEALS daughter in the eye and tell her that her daddy wasn’t coming home because I thought it was more important that the monster got a fair trial.

    Sweet. I hereby call on the UN to seize US military assets because if I had to look some [insert any of dozens of nationalities here] girl in the eye and tell them that their daddy was killed violently as an unfortunate incident in whatever country we’re bombing this year for whatever geopolitical reasonsn that I think is terribly important to the pursuit of freedom-and-justice (TM), that would be my limit.

    I also call on President Obama to immediately nationalise the US energy and transport industries because if I had to look in the eye of a little girl* living on a small Pacific island or the edge of the expanding Sahara desert I would be pretty unhappy about telling her that her future is at risk because I think the freedom of rich people to choose not to modify their lifestyles is more important.

    Oh! And! I call on President Obama to disenfrachise Republican voters because if I had to look in the eye of an adorable little girl with pigtails and a lisp and tell her that her daddy can’t marry his partner or afford healthcare for her sympathetic illness or whatever their latest bullshit is, I would find it too hard to say that her life must be held hostage to my belief in democracy.

    *she’s cute, right? It’s very important that she’s appropriately little and cute and sympathetic.

    Yeah, we have principles and just sometimes they’re absolute. And this is very tough, but I prefer that to making decisions based on who I feel sympathetic towards. Because I kind of believe that the worth of a human being does not depend on how old or ugly they are, or whether there are any cute little girls in their life. If I’m accused of holding a teleological stance here…well, yeah, OK.

  • Kadin

    “The presence of noncombatant women and children in the compound required
    a riskier and more dangerous operation than less discriminate
    approaches, such as destroying the entire compound with bombs or
    missiles.”

    Yes, if there were no serious consideration of capture, the simpler option would have been to bomb a foreign city and start a war with Pakistan. It took real restraint to avoid that option. Great analysis there, Fred.

    “I don’t think it’s difficult to argue that Osama bin Laden constituted an exceptional case”

    What you mean of, course, is that you really don’t like bin Laden. He did not pose any particular threat. He hadn’t been seen in years, there was no reason to believe there would be any danger inherent in taking him alive. He wasn’t captured alive because it would have been politically untenable to do so. Everybody would be afraid that he would use Magic Terrorism Powers to free all the Gitmo prisoners and go on a terrorism raid all across America, and they would have criticised the President for allowing him the opportunity.

    ” In an international law context, the use of military force is plainly
    authorized by UN Security Council Resolution 1368 which uses the magic
    words “inherent right of individual or collective self-defence,” “threat
    to international peace and security,”
    and
    “all necessary steps.””

    This was a retaliatory, rather than a defensive, action. It was well-established that bin Laden was more a figurehead than a General by this time. There’s no reason to believe that killing him was necessary. So yes, if you completely ignore what words mean, that SC Resolution plainly allows for this action.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    Hey, at least we’ve established that, despite the accusation of the odd troll, we’re not a bunch of sycophants who reflexively agree with every word that springs from the mouth of Fred :)

    I still think you’re awesome, Fred. But I also think, on a few points, that you’re wrong here.

  • Anonymous

    They — we — are making a multitude of valid points about the US President’s unmitigated glee about an extrajudicial killing, and about how this is said to constitute “justice”.

    “Unmitigated glee”? Really? Do you have a cite or a video link you could show me? Because in all the clips I’ve seen so far, Obama has been quite sober in both his words and his facial expressions.

    Anyway, the big problem with the killing of bin Laden is the fact that our government lied about how it happened, both the lie about him using a woman as a human shield and that the strike force had any intention whatsoever of taking him alive.

    Look, various government officials making inaccurate statements right after the event, and later retracting them as matters become clearer does not= lie. If they were lying they would still be stoutly insisting that bin Laden used a woman as a human shield , wouldn’t they?

    What, exactly, do the commenters who disagree with Fred’s post see as “injustice” Was it the action itself, is that you consider it a violation of Pakistani sovereignty ? Or is it simply that bin Laden was not taken alive? I’ve seen comments that seem to imply that it is obvious that bin Laden could have been captured alive, and the only reason he wasn’t is because the entire operation was planned and carried out by a bunch of brutes who simply wanted to shoot him in cold blood. How on earth can you be so confident of this? Remember, he was discovered in a fortified compound with high walls topped with razor wire. To all appearances, he expected some kind of attack. Given his admiration of what he called “martyrs”, the SEALS had every reason to expect that he would not only take death over capture, but to try to kill as many of his would-be captors as he could. It seems quite possible that he could have had about his person the trigger to some sort of incendiary device, to be used in just such an event. Under these circumstances, it would have taken an extraordinary, immediate and utterly explicit surrender of bin Laden in order for him to be safely taken alive. The lives of soldiers have value, too, and while they may be required to sacrifice those lives, they shouldn’t be required to commit suicide.

  • Guest-again

    ‘What, exactly, do the commenters who disagree with Fred’s post see as “injustice”’

    Well, as one of those ‘disagreers,’ I can see that my point has been completely skipped over by using the term ‘injustice.’ There is another, not exactly pacifist, perspective, which simply denies government the right to execute people – a very strong attitude in Germany, based on historical reality. Because it seems once a government gets to pick and choose who to kill, the process is difficult to reverse. Much like how an American citizen (actually, citizens seems more accurate, but the other, at least, four cases still seem to be shielded from public scrutiny) is currently on a list for execution, without any due process of law. Something that this citizen’s would be killers are actually sworn to uphold, not violate. But like torture, Americans as a group just don’t seem to care very much about what has happened in the decade since the war on terror started.

    Germans have a slightly different perspective, not being able to tell themselves comforting lies about how necessary it is not to prosecute war criminals, for example those who used torture to defend America from whatever evil it was they violating their sworn oaths to defend it against.

  • http://twitter.com/Mark30339 Mark30339

    There are important reasons behind Christ’s calling us to love our enemy and to respond to evil without violence. And of course these are not qualities mastered or even understood upon hearing. But we have heard admonitions from other sources that essentially instruct us to choose our enemies well, because they define who we are. We are 10 years into this “asymmetrical” war on terror which has transformed our airports, our internet communications and our basic financial transactions into potential battlegrounds, and it is a battleground that recognizes no sovereign boundaries — everywhere, it seems, is where the war is. America chose this response and while I hardly expected a “love your enemy” response in 2001, isn’t now the time to take affirmative steps to promote a sense of peace and symbolically bury the hatchet? This was the time to take Bin Laden alive AT ALL COSTS and to detain him in Guantanamo for the rest of his natural life, and to do it (as JFK said) not because it is easy but because it is hard. Meting out vengeance is easy, bearing the pain of keeping Bin Laden alive is the hard thing to do — and it is the thing that can turn us and our world from war to healing.

  • http://profiles.google.com/scyllacat Priscilla Parkman

    I don’t want to argue. I just want to say, this whole discussion would make more sense to me without words like “retaliatory,” or “vengeance.” The situation is bigger than the life of a single human being, no matter who he may be. I wouldn’t have set us on a path where bin Laden had to die, but I believe W. did that. There are good reasons why this might be right or wrong or appropriate or illegal, but this is not about (any longer) retaliating for 9/11.

  • Kukulan

    “Unmitigated glee”? Really?

    Obama perhaps – but then he always does give a good speech – but other people were dancing in the streets. I think “unmitigated glee” is a fair description.

    Look, various government officials making inaccurate statements right
    after the event, and later retracting them as matters become clearer
    does not= lie.

    Deliberately making inaccurate statements does equal lie – especially if those inaccurate statements are an elaborate falsehood like the one they spun. This isn’t getting a few details wrong and then later correcting them, this is describing an entire sequence of events that never happened and which there was no reason to believe had happened.

    It’s also interesting to note the direction the lies took. People don’t lie to make themselves look bad, they fabricate stories to make situations they know are unacceptable seem reasonable. So, rather than saying ‘We shot an unarmed man in the face. Twice.’ they say something like ‘Oh, there was this big firefight and he was shooting at us. While hiding behind a human shield. A woman. He was hiding behind a woman. And shooting at us. And we had to defend ourselves. I mean, it was pure self defense. Really. That’s how he died.’

    If they were lying they would still be stoutly insisting that bin Laden used a woman as a human shield , wouldn’t they?

    The lie is in big print on the front page and dominates the initial reports. The various corrections are in small print on page 27 and get mentioned only in the extended late night coverage watched by news junkies. That way you get to tell the lie while having plausible dependability. ‘Hey, it’s not our fault most people only heard the initial version. We did issue corrections. Eventually.

    What, exactly, do the commenters who disagree with Fred’s post see as “injustice” Was it the action itself,

    When the police start shooting unarmed suspects rather than arresting them, it’s a problem.

    Various commentators have gone on at length about all the difficulties that would have been involved in capturing bin Laden rather than just shooting him and how unreasonable it is to have expected them to try and capture him, but that ignores the fact that regular police forces all over the planet are expected to do just that on a regular basis. And, whats more, they succeed in doing just that on a regular basis; successfully capturing a suspect is a minor news item, the only time it becomes a major news item is when something goes wrong and the suspect ends up dead.

  • Anonymous

    And, my point is that I think many people who are defending the killing of OBL would think it a violation of international law if a foreign military stormed the home of G.W. Bush or President Obama and killed half a dozen people.

    Alright, in this particular instance, I’d say it would be, since there’s no UN resolution for the use of force – but of course what Greenwald said was that the theories that let us pull the AUMF etc out of our legal hat could just as easily be used by somebody else against us – and that’s true and I don’t really have a problem with that. If the UN passed a resolution declaring Barack Obama a war criminal, and then Iranian commandos stormed the White House, then yes, that would be “legal.” I don’t think that’s going to happen, and I doubt they’d be successful, but yes, that’s sauce for the gander.

    It isn’t like we’re operating in a total legal vacuum here. There IS a UN resolution which authorizes military action. There’s no such document for the President.

    Anybody who argues he WASN’T a bad guy…is disengaged from the strictures of “the real world”

    Again, has anyone here asserted this?

    That’s in Greenwalds comment section – where there are a fair number of people arguing that Osama Bin Laden was actually a CIA asset who was killed because he “knew too much” and that he had nothing to do with 9-11. Sorry, I thought I made it clear that it was that “crowd” that I was addressing. So, it seems like a straw man – but no, that’s pretty much directly from the horses ass.

  • Anonymous

    Look, sorry I didn’t convey this clearly enough. I’m saying that from my perspective, the correct decision was made.

    Your contribution is valuable – your assertions that the principle of legal justice is absolute and if 80 SEALS die or Osama gets away that’s more desirable than him getting shot without a trial has value. Better 1,000 guilty go free than one innocent in imprisoned. Better 3,000 die without justice than one bad guy doesn’t get his trial. Fine, I get it. I respect and admire your position.The difference between your list of (very compelling, BTW) rhetorical situations where we would cast aside one belief for another is exactly what I’m talking about – but you’re being prescriptive. You say “Obama should do this, since there’s cute little girls with sympathetic situations.” My point was more about I didn’t feel like I could pass judgement in this case, because I’m pretty sure I would have made the exact same decision. I would have tossed aside the principle of justice to get the bad guy (and yes, it has been tossed aside.) Maybe that’s vengeance, maybe that’s preventative action. I don’t know. I’m saying I can’t stand here and pronounce Obama to be a “cowboy” because I would have done the same thing. (Hello, own hypocrisy! How are you? Been a while since I’ve seen you. How ya been?)

    I firmly believe that there is for everyone a point at which people will abandon principles they hold for expediency, for other principles, out of despair, whatever. I think there may have been a few dozen people in the history of the world for whom this is not true. Everybody is entitled to point out that given a similar situation THEY would not have abandoned their principles – so feel free to condemn me for lacking your moral clarity. (Which I certainly do, and even though that sounds kinda sarcastic, I mean it. If you truly would have preferred Navy SEAL deaths or injuries (or Osama not getting captured, or horrible situation A, or you just don’t think Obama tried hard enough) to Osama not getting a trial, that’s your judgement. You get to say.)

    But in this particular instance, I would have done the same thing, so I cannot condemn Obama for doing it. It is the decision I would have made. People are welcome to believe that it is the wrong decision, and to tell me that I have betrayed my principles in order to make the wrong decision. People are not welcome to cast aspersion on my entire agency by telling me that I was doing so because my principles were “momentarily inconvenient” (as neither of us knows that) or that I never held my principles in the first place.

    edit: Whoops, I ascribed to you the “momentarily inconvenient” quote, which is actually @Kukulan. Sorry about that. I think the point stands though.

  • LucasP

    “The difference between your list of (very compelling, BTW) rhetorical
    situations where we would cast aside one belief for another is exactly
    what I’m talking about – but you’re being prescriptive.”

    They were not compelling. They were ridiculous arguments based on simpathy. And that, I believe, was the point. Moreover, your assertion that 80 highly trained heavily armed SEALS would all be killed by an elderly unarmed man if they hadn’t shot him in the face is ridiculous. Indeed, you are insulting the American military, and I thought Americans valued their military men.

  • Mackrimin

    Otherwise, for me, being a German, I have no argument. I have only the

    most primitive of arguments and that is that a state under no

    circumstances must be entitled to kill anyone off, for any reason,

    period. You had tens of thousands of cases of capital punishment under

    the Nazis, you had a systematic program for exterminating

    schizophrenics in the euthanasia program, and you had a

    state-sponsored, organized, monumental crime in the Holocaust, killing

    6 million people. Language doesn’t have an adequate word to describe

    this monstrosity. For me, there’s no debate. However, America has not

    had this experience. And I’m a guest in your country. If I were a

    voting citizen, I probably would have a more combative attitude.

    Yes… And if that fine principle had been followed, then Nazis had won World War 2. After all, they were stopped by various states _killing_ enough of them that the rest surrendered. The Holocaust was not stopped by moral arguments or love, it was stopped by indiscriminate use of even more brutal violence against the perpetrators. And the Japanese Empire – which was every bit as nasty bunch of murderous thugs as the Nazis, which nobody seems to care of, presumably because their victims were Asians rather than Europeans – was finally forced to surrender through nuclear war.

    And it worked: both Germany and Japan are peaceful and productive nowadays. As your quote shows, they have been conditioned to associate reverting back to type with an epic asskicking. That’s why we have Germany and Japan rather than Nazi Germany and Japanese Empire nowadays.

    Nonviolence worked for Gandhi because the British were decent people who didn’t just kill him. The Jews also tried it, and were murdered, for the Nazis were not decent people. There’s a lesson there.

    Mind you, killing _is_ an extreme method only justified in extreme circumstances, and Osama’s execution may or may not have been one – we don’t have enough information to judge. However, the claim that the state can never do so in _any_ circumstances is absurd. States exist, first and foremost, to protect their members, and sometimes that means killing evildoers. To deny them the right to do so in any circumstances means sacrificing an unlimited number of your fellow citizens at the altar of
    your principles – and then what’s the difference between you and Osama?

  • Anonymous

    Obama perhaps – but then he always does give a good speech – but other people were dancing in the streets. I think “unmitigated glee” is a fair description.

    ASFAIK, the street celebrations were completely spontaneous. It’s too bad that some people responded to the news that way instead of with quiet relief, but there it is and Obama had nothing to do with it. So the comment like the one I quoted above or ones such as
    People are celebrating the death of a fellow human being. This sickens me. From Obama all the way down. or He[Obama] did no such thing. He exulted [emphasis mine] the killing as “justice”.

    are unfair descriptions and sloppy to boot

    Deliberately making inaccurate statements does equal lie
    At this point, I don’t think we know enough about how or where or with whom the inaccurate statement originated to know how deliberate it was.

    The lie is in big print on the front page and dominates the initial reports. The various corrections are in small print on page 27 and get mentioned only in the extended late night coverage

    Well, my local paper carried the corrected story the next day right in the main section with the continuing bin Laden coverage as did the news blogs I visit. So, I would say this is a case of “which paper d’ya read?” and not the fault of the administration.

    but that ignores the fact that regular police forces all over the planet are expected to do just that on a regular basis.

    But it’s not regular at all. My small city has no criminals anywhere near as notorious as bin Laden, and yet I have read newspaper accounts of occasions where heavily equipped SWAT teams were called in, entire city streets evacuated or closed off, etc., just for an alleged bank robber who was alleged to be heavily armed.

  • http://twitter.com/Mark30339 Mark30339

    If we are serious about following Christ, then we have to reconcile the government policies we support with the gospels, and particularly with chapter 5 of Matthew. It is odd that you mention post-war Germany and Japan because it was precisely a sense of love of enemy that was a catalyst to their recovery from devastation — how else do you make peace? I think most would conclude that the Nazi and Japanese menace had to be confronted with force, and a follower of Christ would confess this path to still be a human failing in terms of what we are called to do. But God does not abandon and opportunities to embrace love of enemy continued to arise and a lasting peace with Germany and Japan was established.

    Pope John Paul II watched the slaughter of his people with their armed uprising against the Nazis in 1944 and then fell under the Iron Curtain for 45 years. Under your theory, the West should have confronted the Soviets with force and put nuclear armageddon in play (which JFK actually and perhaps foolishly did with Cuba). But with Poland (under your calculus) the IMPOSSIBLE happened: a bloodless defeat of the entire Soviet Union was accomplished through a focused commitment to non-violent confrontation forged over 45 years of many evils endured.

    The kill squad hit on Bin Laden and his companions was a shocking
    lost opportunity to begin closing the book on the War on Terror and to
    show America as a powerful country able to restrain its vengeance in
    order to embody how supremely important life is. Bin Laden should have been taken alive at all costs. This is not because Bin Laden deserved
    it, this is because a super-power can rise above the values of its
    enemies and prove it stands for something better.

  • Kukulan

    Okay, if you want to limit the discussion just to Obama, I will agree that he did not demonstrate unmitigated glee. It was just a whole bunch of other people – and I don’t think it matters whether it was spontaneous or carefully planned.

    At this point, I don’t think we know enough about how or where or with
    whom the inaccurate statement originated to know how deliberate it was.

    A lie is no less a lie just because you don’t know who originally concocted it. And I’m hard pressed to know how someone could come up with the detailed scenario presented without doing so deliberately. I can understand how someone could accidentally misspeak or phrase something ambiguously and so create an inaccurate impression, but presenting a detailed account of something that never happened? No. The only way to do that is for it to be deliberate.

    So, I would say this is a case of “which paper d’ya
    read?” and not the fault of the administration.

    Given that I occasionally run into people who still believe that Iraq was full of weapons of mass destruction or that Saddam Husseim wouldn’t let the UN Weapons Inspectors in or even that Adolf Hitler danced a bizarre little jig after accepting France’s surrender in 1940 – no matter how much evidence showing otherwise has been presented or corrections issued – I think what I described is how it works and the initial impression created by the falsehood does not fade.

    Further, I would suggest that those in charge know that’s how it works and seek to exploit the fact.

    The way to avoid creating these false impressions is to not make up stories when you don’t have the information to hand. A simple ‘That’s all we know at present. More details as they come to hand.’ would be the way to go. Anything else is the fault of those doing it.

    But it’s not regular at all. My small city has no criminals anywhere
    near as notorious as bin Laden,

    What’s notoriety got to do with it? It affects the amount of public interest and publicity any action involving that criminal would get and would probably necessitate higher security when the criminal is put on trial and incarcerated, but it wouldn’t have any effect on attempts to capture that criminal. Especially when those attempts are kept secret (as this one was) unti
    l after
    they are over.

    and yet I have read newspaper accounts
    of occasions where heavily equipped SWAT teams were called in, entire
    city streets evacuated or closed off, etc., just for an alleged bank
    robber who was alleged to be heavily armed.

    And did they capture and arrest the alleged bank robber? Or did they find that he was actually unarmed and just shoot him in the face?

    I’m not saying that that these sort of operations are easy – some can be quite large and elaborate involving dozens of police officers and a lot of expensive equipment – I’m pointing out that ordinary police departments do them on a regular basis and are so successful at them that it’s only newsworthy when they fail to apprehend the suspect or the suspect ends up dead.

    Why do you think it’s unreasonable to expect a similar level of competence and professionalism out of this operation?

  • Guest-again

    I think you missed the part where Herzog says ‘kill off.’

    No one is arguing about self defense, at least in Germany. And one could make an argument that Osama’s execution was also an act of self-defense, not that I have actually read anyone saying that, since Osama most certainly hadn’t, in any sense, renounced tactics involving the deaths of many innocent people.

    But that ‘kill off’ point is quite critical – and currently, at least one American citizen has been placed on a presidentially authorized list to be ‘killed off.’ An act which was intended to be kept secret, without even a public hearing, much less an actual verdict of guilty, as determined by a jury of that citizen’s peers in a court of law.

    We are already much further along the path Herzog, and a large number of Germans, learned about as undeniable historical truth. Not that Americans generally care much about history. Or facts, for that matter – after all, we aren’t just killing off non-Americans, we are also actively engaged in killing off Americans, without trial, and preferably in secret, if the executive branch is able to have its way.

    As of right now, our government is actively engaged in trying to kill off those that our government, in secret, determines need to be killed off, both citizens and non-citizens. That this is explicitly opposed to the oath that the officials swore to uphold the Constitution seems to disturb very few Americans.

    That is reality – and it will likely ensure Obama’s re-election, since apparently, killing (and its lesser accomplices, like torture) is worshipped by a growing number of Americans, unconcerned that their government is now reserving the right to kill off whoever that government wishes.

    But I’m sure that real Americans have nothing, absolutely nothing, to worry about. After all, ‘real’ Germans didn’t worry about what was happening a few decades ago, either. Because anyone not applauding the changes in German society at that time wasn’t a real German, after all.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    You say “Obama should do this, since there’s cute little girls with sympathetic situations.”

    That’s the opposite of what I was getting at. I was reacting against the idea that a sympathetic idea expressed in emotive language is a sufficient reason to betray a high principle (namely that you don’t put a bullet in the brain of an unarmed person). The point of my ridiculous examples is that sympathy can work both ways and taken to undefendable extremes. The last statement in my post was the one not made in jest: the worth of a human being does not depend on their objective sympathy in someone else’s eyes.

    I would have done the same thing

    Good on you for your honesty. I don’t know what I would do in a potentially life and death situation, but I know what I want my response to be. And I’ve got to aspire to the best of my principles, surely, not give up on them before it even comes to the test?

    I’ll admit that your somment about people having no imagination rather than deeply held principles bugged me, and I responded in that mood.

    I firmly believe that there is for everyone a point at which people will abandon principles they hold for expediency, for other principles, out of despair, whatever.

    Evidence suggests that for an amazing number of people if there is a point at which they betray a given principle, it’s not before their death.

    I think there may have been a few dozen people in the history of the world for whom this is not true.

    A few dozen? The number of martyrs (using the word here broadly, not in the strict religious sense) in history is unfathomable. My God, in my own tiny little life I know people who allow themselves to suffer in so many different ways rather than give up a principle they value. If there is a point at which they will abandon the principle, they haven’t reached it yet.

    feel free to condemn me for lacking your moral clarity

    Certainly not planning to. I’m not on a superiority trip; just saying what I think. What I’d actually do, as I said, I can hope for but not know for sure.

    If you truly would have preferred Navy SEAL deaths or injuries (or Osama not getting captured, or horrible situation A, or you just don’t think Obama tried hard enough) to Osama not getting a trial, that’s your judgement. You get to say.)

    Personally, I’m pretty close to the extremist end of things when it comes to violence. I’m not quite pacifist, but apply a very strict application of just war theory. Which in my interpretation includes the belief that it is better for a combatant on my side to seriously risk death than to risk the life of a non-combatant on the other. If we really treated the lives of civilians and unarmed enemies as in need of greater protection than our own armed officers we’d be a lot less gung-ho about things. The idea that we can have 1000s of casualties and say that we did everything to minimise them seems incongruous to me.

    People are not welcome to cast aspersion on my entire agency by telling me that I was doing so because my principles were “momentarily inconvenient” (as neither of us knows that) or that I never held my principles in the first place.

    Definitely not doing that. I just reacted to your claim that you only ever hold a principle if you’re willing to betray it.

    PS: WTF DISQUS? This took forever to type up. You suck (DISQUS, not TheFaithfulStone!)

  • Flying sardines

    Problem with that is that the US felt very strongly that it could NOT trust Pakistan to do the right thing here and that if they’d alerted Pakistan then the information would have laked out and bin Laden would’ve escaped. Pakistani complicity in sheltering bin laden is strongly suspected. he was living, apparently, in what I’ve heard described as an ISI (Pakistani secret police) safe house. Bin Laden had apparently been living in his Abbottabad compound for five years or so. Just north of the capital, next to or even in a Paakistani army base. I can see why the US wouldn’t trust Pakistan here.

  • Flying sardines

    In fairness, it may be that what many of those Americans were (or thought they were) celeberating was the end of a war and the relief at the end of a threat that ha staunte dand haunted their nation for a decade. I think their expressions and reactions were natural and all too human. Not necessarily tasteful, not a good look, maybe not in reflection ethically good but, yeah, understandable in the circumstances – and human. HUmans are after all fallible, flawed and emotional. Sometimes inappropriately so.

  • Flying sardines

    D’oh! Typos fix req. :

    .. the relief at the end of a threat that has taunted and haunted their nation for a decade.

    Bin ladne has been a bogeyman, a devil made out for so long to be such a puillar of evil. To see that evil fall. To know that someone trying to kill them and who in some cases there would have killed family and friends of the people celebrating. I think that’s understandable if not something we’d necessarily do ourselves. We all react in different ways to things and who are we to say how those folks should or shouldn’t have reacted.

  • Flying sardines

    D’oh! Typos fix req. :

    .. the relief at the end of a threat that has taunted and haunted their nation for a decade.

    Bin ladne has been a bogeyman, a devil made out for so long to be such a puillar of evil. To see that evil fall. To know that someone trying to kill them and who in some cases there would have killed family and friends of the people celebrating. I think that’s understandable if not something we’d necessarily do ourselves. We all react in different ways to things and who are we to say how those folks should or shouldn’t have reacted.

  • Lawfairy

    My problems with Osama’s death (and its meaning and fallout) are at least threefold,
    and none of them is the pacifist straw man set up in this post. Like
    others here, I almost always find myself agreeing with Fred, but not on
    this one.

    First, as others have noted, the death penalty is wrong, period, full
    stop. What happened here was not self-defense or even a broadened
    definition of self-defense that includes preemptive protective strikes.
    It was an execution, specifically ordered by the people on top. The
    lip service to bringing him in kind of falls flat given that he was
    clearly unarmed (and further in light of the troubling discrepancies
    that seem to keep popping up as the story continues to evolve and
    change).

    Second, even if for those who do believe in the death penalty, and for
    those who see no problem with shooting an unarmed man, this was simply
    foolish. Yes, of course, obviously I don’t want servicemen and women
    unnecessarily risking their lives based on a principle — but at the
    same time, if you’re one of those who truly believes that bringing Osama
    to justice was such a crucially important American interest to justify
    the countless dollars and resources that have been thrown at it (I’m not
    personally convinced of this, but that’s a different discussion), then
    in this case, that principle was worth it. Not because we need to show
    ourselves to be a country committed to justice — that ship has spent
    the last ten years sailing away. No, the principle was important here
    because Osama needed to die of old age, pathetically simpering away in
    reasonably comfortable accommodations, well-fed, completely impotent and
    sad. The people who look up to him needed to see him slowly and
    gradually humbled in the way that only long life can humble someone.
    Instead, we have given The Terrorists (whoever the fuck they are) a
    martyr and a hero. Not only was he shot down by specially-trained
    military operatives, but he was *unarmed* at the time. Good job, US,
    you’ve turned him into a goddamned immortal hero. I don’t care how much
    anyone hated him, the fact that he died, at this time, in this way,
    does *not* hurt “terrorism.”

    Finally, Osama’s death means nothing and changes nothing. The true
    victory of terrorism, and this is an old refrain from us silly
    civil-liberty types, has already been accomplished. US citizens have
    been reduced to the point of cowering fear such that we will accept
    virtually any unlawful, unjust, police-state tactics our government
    wants to impose on us. When your average voter sees nothing wrong with
    warrantless searches and wiretaps, nothing wrong with groping children
    in airports and exposing innocents to potentially lethal doses of
    radiation for the “privilege” (used to be a right) of basic modern
    travel, nothing wrong with viewing their friends and neighbors with
    suspicion and reporting them to the government simply because they dress
    funny or call God by a different name — then, to be particularly
    unoriginal about it, the terrorists have already won.

    If I had any hope that the people celebrating Osama’s death would
    agitate to have the Patriot Act repealed, or the perpetual state of
    emergency called off, or constitutional due process, you know, *actually
    upheld,* then I might see a reason for happiness, even though a human
    being — even a shitty one — is dead, something I pretty much never see
    as a reason for happiness. But not only is there only more (actually, several more) death in
    this, there will not even be any good to come from it. People will
    continue to forget why their civil rights matter, and the US will
    continue to become a country I do not recognize. If anything, I fear that this “victory” will galvanize those who would have us pour yet more of our precious resources into militarized destruction (“Look at what we have accomplished! All of this has been worth it, so now let’s do more if it!”) I feel like Osama’s
    death is just a sad, meaningless capstone on a decade-long saga of a
    formerly-great country’s fall from grace, and most of us who have lost
    this war didn’t even realize we were, or should have been, fighting
    it.

  • Kukulan

    In fairness, it may be that what many of those Americans were (or
    thought they were) celeberating was the end of a war and the relief at
    the end of a threat that ha staunte dand haunted their nation for a
    decade.

    Or they could have been celebrating May Day, either the original pagan observance, or the Socialist version established by the Second International.

    I think Occam’s razor applies here. If the people say they were celebrating the death of Osama bin Laden, we should take them at their word that’s what they were celebrating.