I am still laughing over, “I’m Bob. From accounting.”

Would that Jenkins/LaHaye could write like that.

This:
But then Tsion is probably nervous and a bit frightened. He was just on TV describing Daniel as “the greatest of all Hebrew prophets,” then his phone rings and he finds out that Elijah and Moses want to have a word with him. Oh, and they can breathe fire. I’d be scared too.

is wonderful, as is the thing with Paul and introductions.

But on the positive side, again, at least we’re spared 18 months of cab rides, cookies and phone calls. For that much I’m grateful.

Jenkins once said that the reason 12 books was settled upon was because at the end of book two someone did the math and figured out that it would take 12 books to get through the Tribulation. The math does not, in fact, work out that way but the implication is that if not for “Eighteen months later.” this would be something closer to a 168 book series.  So the time skip is something we should all be grateful for.

On that note, some shameless self promotion, for the second week in a row:
18 Months Later

Firstly, I’m wondering why Eli had to ask anyone for Tsion’s phone number. He’s a prophet. Knowing things is what a prophet does.

Secondly, as an unsaved heathen, the bit Fred linked to where Elijah called down fire was new to me, and I’m very impressed with the soldiers in the second two fifties that went out on a mission that got the last guys smote with divine fire. That takes some serious cojones.

Thirdly, in Godfellas, would Eli or Moishe be played by Joe Pesci?

“Hi, I’m Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set
apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his
prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning his Son, who was
descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be Son
of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection
from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received
grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all
the Gentiles for the sake of his name, including yourselves who are
called to belong to Jesus Christ, grace to you and peace from God our
Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

I’m trying to envision this on one of those “Hi! My name is …..” sticky tags.

And when the supposedly good guys come across as part of the Soprano clan . . . well, what can you say other than, “450 pages?  Really?  And a 12-volume series?  Dear Lord, kill me now.”

Yeah, I’m afraid, given how freaking long this series is, that we’ve condemned poor Fred to a Wandering Jew-like existence, unable to rest until he snarks every last word of the series.

I’m always set back when I’m reminded of how God rolled in the Old Testament. He was pretty concerned that not one innocent Ninevite was destroyed, but His aim doesn’t seem to have been as careful when people brought up Ba’al. 

That, and He sounds like a jealous grandmother. “What, the God of the Israelites isn’t good enough for you? Bah, you and your modern gods and your augury and iron chariot wheels!”

“Have no fear. Moishe and I will make clear that anyone who threatens
harm to you will answer to us. And I think our record is plain on that
account.”

Just threatens harm? That seems pretty strict. I mean, attempts to harm or approaches with the intent to harm, I could get behind. But simply “threatens”? I have images of someone saying “Oh, that Jew McJewstien scheduled this meeting during Desperate Housewives, I could just kill him for this” and getting flame-blasted.

Thirdly, in Godfellas, would Eli or Moishe be played by Joe Pesci?

Eli, I would say. He seems like the one with the big mouth…

Thinking more about it- it fits that God’s representatives in Left Behindworld behave like gangsters, doesn’t it? The whole religion is pushed like a protection racket- “Real nice soul you’ve got there, I’d hate to see it get damned…”- and their idea of God rules by wiping out anyone that opposes him. 

“I also don’t want to read too much into a single preposition, but you may be wondering why someone would say “under our preaching,” rather than the more normal-sounding “through our
preaching.” I suspect that if you attended Tim LaHaye’s church then the
peculiar choice of that word would make more sense. In some circles
it’s a common idiomatic reminder of who is expected to “submit” to whom.
I have many friends and acquaintances who speak this way, sometimes
telling me of what they’ve learned “under” their pastor’s teaching and
never quite recognizing that the biggest thing they’re learning might be
who is “under” whom.”

Hmm… “Submit?” “Under?” Maybe I should check out  LaHaye’s church after all.

*Dons Crotchless leather, black vinyl jacket, ball gag and leather wip*

“Mpphfff Mffhp mfff,” *takes ball gag out* “Okay, ready to go!”

I’m most interested in the reaction of Tsion’s wife. I haven’t read TF, so please let me know if I’m wrong, but from Fred’s description it sounds like Tsion’s wife found out that “Jesus is the Messiah” by watching the TV along with everyone else. (Aside, why did Buck get invited, but Tsion’s wife had to stay home?)
Since she’s married to a (supposedly) well-respected Jewish scholar (and presumably isn’t a RTC, otherwise she’d be happy), I assume that her Jewish faith is an important part of her life. Now she’s just watched her husband rip her beliefs to shreds on international TV, without even giving her a heads up. She wouldn’t be worried about tenure – she’d be pissed! (I suppose in the world of TF her husband’s ‘brilliant’ scholarship could have converted her, but then again she’d be happy.)

I can’t believe they had Elijah call on the phone.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve said some version of, “I should be long past the point of being surprised by how bad this is and yet I’m sort of stunned again.” My financial problems with be, if not solved certainly greatly reduced.

Oh, wait, you can’t ask Korah, Dathan and Abiram because “the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up … so they … went down alive into Sheol and the earth closed over them.”

From Book #9 – Desecration:

First in line, Rayford noticed, in each of the three massive divisions of GC battalions, were fulltrack tanks, chewing up rocks and dirt and sand, bouncing and rolling over the uneven ground. Behind them, beyond the clouds of dust, from what he had seen from the air, were missile launchers. Then came cannons, then armored personnel carriers, trucks, jeep-type vehicles with guntoting soldiers, then smaller cars…. [T]here seemed no slowing as they drew within half a mile, then a quarter mile. They bore down on the unarmed civilians….

Ten feet and ground zero, and suddenly … [a]ll around the sea of people, right at the feet of those in the front on every side, the earth split and ripped open for a mile in every direction away from Petra. The echoes from the shattering of the earth were as loud as the actual leaving, and as the tanks and missiles and cannons and personnel armaments were fired in panic or from being shaken to their core, the projectiles rose vertically and eventually dropped back down onto the plunging armies.

Smoke and fire rose in great belches from the colossal gorge that appeared to reach the bowels of hell. The roar of racing engines, whose drivetrains propelled steel tracks or wheels that merely spun in thin air, could not cover the screams of troops who had been just seconds from squashing their prey and now found themselves hurtling to their deaths….

Chaim slowly rose and addressed the people. “As long as you are on your knees, what better time to thank the God of creation, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Thank him who sits high above the heavens, above whom there is no other. Thank the One in whom there is no change, neither shadow of turning. Praise the holy One of Israel. Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!”

From Book #12 – Glorious Appearing:

The group to Jesus’ left immediately fell to their knees again and began shouting and wailing, “Jesus Christ is Lord! Jesus Christ is Lord!” …  Rayford watched, horrified despite knowing this was coming, as [these millions of condemned souls] beat their breasts and fell wailing to the desert floor, gnashing their teeth and pulling their hair. Jesus merely raised one hand a few inches and a yawning chasm opened in the earth, stretching far and wide enough to swallow all of them. They tumbled in, howling and screeching, but their wailing was soon quashed and all was silent when the earth closed itself again.

“This is Eli. I spoke to you last night.”“Of course! How did you get my number?”

“This is Eli…”"Of the Eli & Moses, yes. How did you get my number?”"Eli the Prophet… servant of the one, true God.”"So do you have a copy of the white pages, or did you ask someone, or…?”

…the action seems to be picking up a little bit. Buck is set to accompany Tsion on his stadium evangelism tour, and Rayford is about to land in New Babylon to witness the construction of Nicolae Carpathia’s equivalent of the Death Star. ….finally,
something may be about to happen.Eighteen months later.

I actually yelled out loud in frustration from that.

The full passage is

Buck felt awkward in the small home of Tsion Ben-Judah, whose wife embraced him tearfully and then sat with her children in another room, sobbing loudly. “I support you, Tsion,” she called out. “But our lives are ruined!”

So based on that, it could be that she was taken by surprise and convinced, but it could also be (and I would tend to interpret it as) she knew what was coming and she’s simply reacting to the full reality of it setting in.

I’m actually a little surprised to see that Tsion’s family is under divine protection because, as far as I recall, they all get murdered.

The time-skip sounds like nothing so much as Jenkins succumbing to boredom and resorting to a last-ditch attempt to wake himself back up.

I’m trying to envision this on one of those “Hi! My name is …..” sticky tags.

And now I’ve picturing a person whose entire front is covered in “Hi! My name is …..” sticky tags because the spiel is so long. 

A good writer could pull the trick off of giving a very detailed account of one day then skipping ahead 18 months later. Only it would have to be clear that what passed in between wasn’t so important that it couldn’t be glossed over or covered in brief flashbacks.

This however is the literal end of the world. Those 18 months are the solidification of Nicky’s power, the establishment of the OWR and the following banning of all other religions, the war drums are starting to pound, and now or heroes have to act their parts and spread the word and start sleeper cell churches of true believers all around the world. Back home they also have to keep an eye on their food supply, and turn New Hope into a makeshift infirmary/soup kitchen for those who have nothing or who are on the run from the Global Community inforcers.

Or they would if they were actual heroes. Who would actually do things like hand Loretta the keys to the place while they’re off having globetrotting adventures. Or rescuing believers from re-education centers. Or anything besides jetting around in comfort while giving snotty looks to their bosses.

A good writer could pull the trick off of giving a very detailed account
of one day then skipping ahead 18 months later. Only it would have to
be clear that what passed in between wasn’t so important that it
couldn’t be glossed over or covered in brief flashbacks.

When I started thinking about how to salvage the “18 months later” jump, the first (good) thought I had was Cast Away. We see pudgy, slightly scruffy Tom Hanks wandering around the island, gathering packages, trying to spear a fish and falling in the water. Some time later the camera pans up to show us a bearded, lean Hanks expertly skewering fish.

So 18 month later would be a tolerable time jump if we got to see the characters changed. Buck Williams checks his hidden surveillance equipment one last time before he slides into his coat; he practices a few phrases while Chloe, in the next room, tests the sound quality and signal strength. Bruce is assembling the rifles in the garage while Rayford finishes tweaking the jeep’s engine; if they’re going to tail Buck, the guns need to shoot straight and the jeep has to run smoothly.

Or something other than “the GIRAT and Captain Steele bask in the admiration of everyone else”…

Fred, shouldn’t it be, “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for
the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in
the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended
from David according to the flesh and was declared to be Son of God with
power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the
dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and
apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles
for the sake of his name, including yourselves who are called to belong
to Jesus Christ, grace to you and peace from God our Father and the
Lord Jesus Christ of Ulm”?

Okay, that settles “learned under.” Now can someone explain to me why RTCs “believe on” Jesus, instead of “believe in” Jesus?

Jenkins once said that the reason 12 books was settled upon was because at the end of book two someone did the math and figured out that it would take 12 books to get through the Tribulation.
 
Behind the Scenes of the Left Behind Series with Jerry Jenkins
We initially thought there would be one book covering the Rapture—seven years of tribulation and a hint at the millennium. We knew we weren’t going to cover the millennium in detail, because it’s a time of peace, and without conflict there’s no fiction.

But I got halfway through the first book and realized I’d only covered two weeks! That’s when I knew it was not going to be done in one book. We went to a trilogy, and soon it was six and then seven. We finally settled on 12 to get through the tribulation period, and later decided to write a prequel and a sequel.

I want to see the scene where the two prophets from 1000 BCE are on the phone with the Teddy Stadium general manager, booking their event.  How is such a bizarre circumstance even imaginable to our authors?  It’s like a Mel Brooks/Carl Reiner routine gone horribly wrong.  Even if they’re on a holy mission, how is this pair managing to book an entire football stadium on such short notice?  Where are they obtaining the money to do this?  Who is sponsoring?  Will there be concessions?  How will they be promoting the event?  Didn’t John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd already do it better?

And for Pete’s sake, why isn’t Nicolae doing anything about this?  The man controls like 99% of the world.  I can’t tell whether Israel is totally independent from the World Conglomerate, or if it’s partly autonomous, or what, but it shouldn’t matter; Nicolae shouldn’t have to put up with stuff like this.  Even if Israel were outside his legal domain, the man still runs the global conspiracy (remember the global conspiracy?) that he inherited from Stonagal.  A conspiracy which includes a lot of “international financiers” — Jewish bankers, as translated from Bircherese — which implies that Nicky should have a lot of hooks in Israel already.

I don’t mean to tell the villain how to do his job, but in just a few days there’s going to be maybe 20,000 Christians and proto-Christians all gathered together in one public venue, along with some of the chief theological enemies of the Antichrist, and so maybe this would be a good opportunity for Nicky to make a move.  Hire a few suicide bombers.  Plant some agents.  Cause a blackout.  Break the toilets.  At least keep track of who buys a ticket for later persecution.  Given that we go to the 18-month skip without incident, I gather the bad guys engage in none of this.

Nicky, I want to root for your team, but you make it really difficult sometimes.

I’m actually a little surprised to see that Tsion’s family is under
divine protection because, as far as I recall, they all get murdered.

*gasp* You mean they lied? Oh shock! Oh horrors!

Or, given LNJ’s level of competence at writing, it’s more probably they completely forgot about the promise.

So they have (un)intentionally turned the RTC god into a vengeful, powerful, completely absent-minded old coot who coincidentally hates the same people they hate.

Time skips are very difficult to handle properly. I do not trust these two to handle it. At all.

Also?

As Proposition Joe would say, that guy has more bodies on him than a Chinese cemetery.

It is always good to meet another fan of The Wire.

The character of Elijah in this story apparently watches TV and knows how to use a telephone. There’s really no need for him to sound like the NKJV.

So basically he’s the Biblical version of Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer?

———————————————————————-

Again, “How did you get my number?” is a legitimate question, but perhaps not the first thing most of us would ask when a biblical figure from the Iron Age calls.

To steal from MST3K, “Of all the plot holes to fill, they chose the phone number plot hole!”

What?  No.  This is 18 months of peace.  Peace!  No one is being smote.  No prophecies are being fulfilled.  There’s no death.  We need to skip to the death.  Death to the unbelievers!

Or something like that.

Even if Israel were outside his legal domain, the man still runs the global conspiracy (remember the global conspiracy?) that he inherited from Stonagal.

Is it wrong that I heard this in the voice of Arlo Gutherie telling the story of Alice’s Restaurant (“…when Alice, remember Alice?”)?

Eighteen months later.

IIRC the first prequel The Rising ends approximately ten years before the beginning of Left Behind.  At that point Rayford is already a senior pilot for Pan-Continental Airlines, Chris Smith is his first officer, Earl Halliday his supervisor, Hattie Durham his new flight attendant, and Leonard Gustafson the president of the airline.  In other words, other than Hattie’s promotion to senior flight attendant, all of these characters are in their places for a full decade — no promotions, transfers, changes, etc.

Also, I seem to recall that four years prior to Left Behind, Buck is a journalist for Global Weekly.  (While a senior at Princeton, our hero indicated that his career goal was “Global Weekly.” Steve Plank is his boss, and some of his coworkers (such as Lucinda Washington) are already in their places.

the first prequel The Rising ends approximately ten years before the beginning of Left Behind.

The best time to invest in them new-fangled tele-o-phones.

So I buy that “Eli’s” threat is a credible one, but hearing him talk all
gangster like that gives me this incongruous mental image of two
bearded old men in sackcloth and aviator shades.

We’re on a mission from God.

You know, this time skip actually has me kind of excited.  I can’t wait to see what techniques and other powers everyone has acquired during their 18 months of training!

Oh, wait, I guess I’m getting my series mixed up here…

Vermic: Even if they’re on a holy mission, how is this pair managing to book an entire football stadium on such short notice?  Where are they obtaining the money to do this?  Who is sponsoring?  Will there be concessions?  How will they be promoting the event?  Didn’t John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd already do it better?

I can just picture Eli and Moishe cruising through Jerusalem in a tricked-out second hand cop car, with endless waves of UN cars in hot pursuit.  Finally they’re cornered on some overpass, but are saved at the last minute when Eli’s chariot swings down from heaven to pick them up.  Meanwhile, Nicky and Chaim’s car goes soaring out of control off the overpass, and Chaim manages to say “I’ve always loved you” before they fit the ground.

If I had to work with Rayford as my boss for ten years, I’d join the Antichrist’s side too. Just because I wanted everything and everyone to suffer.

TRIGGER WARNING 

The main problem with timeskips is that nearly always, there doesn’t seem to be a requisite amount of growth and change in the characters and the bonds between them, like they might as well have been put in stasis during that time. Given that L&J characters don’t grow and change anyways, it makes no real difference.

We knew we weren’t going to cover the millennium in detail, because it’s
a time of peace, and without conflict there’s no fiction.

So he knows this and yet he wrote these books. How does that even work? I swear he makes me want to rip off his writing arm and beat him with it. 

So they have (un)intentionally turned the RTC god into a vengeful,
powerful, completely absent-minded old coot who coincidentally hates the
same people they hate.

Well, He should do well in the Iowa Republican caucuses, then.

So he knows this and yet he wrote these books. How does that even work? I swear he makes me want to rip off his writing arm and beat him with it.

You must realize that his decision not to cover the millennium came years before he and LaHaye received the royalties from more than 65 million book sales.

“Okay, that settles “learned under.” Now can someone explain to me why RTCs “believe on” Jesus, instead of “believe in” Jesus?”

My guess it’s another obnoxious “We have the REAL truth losers!” verbal tribal marker. To “believe in” Jesus could suggest that you could not believe in Jesus, or believe that Jesus didn’t exist at all. To believe on is to say that the existence and power of Jesus is beyond doubt and you believe on this rock solid certainty. In other words, to avoid the messy business of being alive and having to take a leap of faith.

Jerusalem Nazis.  I hate Jerusalem Nazis.

The awesome thing about the Tribulation is that you can leave someone waiting at the altar, and say “There was an earthquake!  A terrible flood!  LOCUSTS!” and it’s not even a lie.

You must realize that his decision not to cover the millennium came
years before he and LaHaye received the royalties from more than 65
million book sales.

Sure, but the bad writing came before the giant royalty checks. There’s no real conflict to speak of in the first book. It’s not as much of a snoozefest as this one, but few things are. Certainly not enough happens in book 1 to justify it’s page count. Jenkins tossed what he clearly knew to be a rule of good writing for a lot less than the (admittedly enormous and no doubt tempting) royalties from the inexplicable mega-sales of the world’s worst books. 

OMG, I… I agree with Monoblade! *head explodes*

I’m glad to be experiencing these books through you, Fred. This was actually the major draw for me to this blog, where upon I stuck around for all the other stuff. I have to say – I gained a lot by sticking around (I used to be the kind of jackass atheist embodied by those individuals who have no respect for what people believe and belittled them for it, thought there was no such thing as a good religious person, etc. Now anytime I hear someone babbling like that, I want to direct them to this blog, the one place where I learned otherwise. I’m still an atheist/agnostic, and I can still be a jackass, but I’m more willing to admit I’m wrong than I was before for doing it).

I’m an amateur science fiction/speculative fiction* author – amateur insomuch as I haven’t been published (yet). I read through these excerpts and I cringe; it’s like Twilight. I want to try and understand how this garbage can get published when real talent is left by the wayside. I’ve also used these deconstructions on my own journey as I write; the general tips on writing are as useful as the deconstruction of the twisted and bad theology behind it. In a way, they’ve helped me more fully flesh out the characters I use who do believe this tripe.

*I have a very strange definition of science fiction. I go by the old saying: “fantasy takes the impossible and makes it probable; science fiction takes the improbable and makes it possible.” Because of this, a lot of things that people often classify as sci-fi get classified as pure fantasy to me: Star Trek, Babylon 5, Farscape, and any other series that uses FTL or has psionics (both fancy names for magic) are fantasy with sci-fi themes. Worth noting is that I follow the mundane manifesto, and if my beta readers are to be believed, I do so with great success. Using that definition, I have to formally define L&J’s work as garbage, because it’s taking what should be impossible (the Rapture) and, rather than making it improbable like fantasy does, by virtue of stupidity, it makes it even MORE impossible.

Monoblade is a poe. If you’re a regular over at “Dispatches From the Culture Wars”, he’s a lot like Mad the Swine.

There’s no real conflict to speak of in the first book. It’s not as much of a snoozefest as this one, but few things are.

No conflict from your perspective.  From the perspective of our intrepid authors, there is plenty of action. Riots, assassinations, bombings, James Bond-style intrigue, a desperate search for the truth…

There’s no real conflict to speak of in the first book. It’s not as much of a snoozefest as this one, but few things are.

No conflict from your perspective.  From the perspective of our intrepid authors, there is plenty of action. Riots, assassinations, bombings, James Bond-style intrigue, a desperate search for the truth…

 
No conflict from your perspective.  From the perspective of
our intrepid authors, there is plenty of action. Riots, assassinations,
bombings, James Bond-style intrigue, a desperate search for the truth…

Dead people don’t know that they’re dead, and bad writers don’t know that they’re bad.

Oh gawd, this is probably true. It’s just that the idea that they’re so bad that they don’t realize that they didn’t show any of those things just makes me want to weep over their publishing contract.

I think I need a nice cup of tea and a lie down.

I’m sure the billions sold, the fact that they were published from Tindall without question while still in rough draft form, and that they aren’t roundly criticized has something to do with them not realizing how awful their prose is…

Oh, then you’ll hate the rest of their scenes together. Whenever Nicolae and the two preachers are together in a scene Nicolae will wring in his hands in impotent rage at his inability to do anything to them, while the preachers engage in the most meanspirited, childish humiliation of Nicolae in the history of literature. The only thing they don’t do is pants Nicolae.

Really, the two preachers are the most unlikeable, arrogant, belligerent characters in the entire series. They talk like they have brooms up their asses and won’t let anyone else speak until they’re done insulting other people.

And what’s more they have the power to kill or torment anyone they please, and no one can stop them. And they are invincible.

And
what’s more they have the power to kill or torment anyone they please,
and no one can stop them. And they are invincible.

So during Earth’s darkest days, two invincible prophets are walking around, not engaging in supernatural heroics, not healing the sick, not rescuing those in danger, but merely being smug dicks? That speaks volumes about the Left Behind God and those who worship him.

Moishe to Eli:  “I know! Let’s put on a show! At a football stadium!”

This is by far one of your funniest entries yet. I literally loled when I got to:

Again, “How did you get my number?” is a legitimate question, but
perhaps not the first thing most of us would ask when a biblical figure
from the Iron Age calls. But then Tsion is probably nervous and a bit
frightened. He was just on TV describing Daniel as “the greatest of all
Hebrew prophets,” then his phone rings and he finds out that Elijah and
Moses want to have a word with him. Oh, and they can breathe fire. I’d be scared too.

More seriously, this actually really did seem like it was building up. You could have Tzion fleeing while Elijah sends forth streams of fire at UN helicopters. Or you could see them fleeing in a car where they have to jump a bridge that is being raised up, they jump, Moses waves his staff, the water forms a column to push them over to the other side, and then the water falls back, and smashes the pursuing bad guys. And then up ahead, they prepare for another miracle, and they see… Nicolai, standing confidently, his arms crossed in front of him, he raises his right hand…

And then, 18 months later. This is like if in Lord of the Rings one had a time lapse from when Frodo and the others flee the Shire with the nazgul right behind them, all the way until when they set out down the river with Galadriel’s blessing.  This is like if the first Harry Potter had a time lapse from when the three of them go to get the Philosopher’s Stone before it can be stolen, until when Harry is recovering in the hospital wing. (I won’t compare it to anything in the last three Harry Potter books, because they could have actually used some time lapses.)

It is almost like Left Behind goes out of its way to avoid actual action.

So during Earth’s darkest days, two invincible prophets are walking
around, not engaging in supernatural heroics, not healing the sick, not
rescuing those in danger, but merely being smug dicks? That speaks
volumes about the Left Behind God and those who worship him.

Wow. Such superdickery!

Really, the two preachers are the most unlikeable, arrogant, belligerent
characters in the entire series. They talk like they have brooms up
their asses and won’t let anyone else speak until they’re done insulting
other people.

And what’s more they have the power to kill or torment anyone they
please, and no one can stop them. And they are invincible.

… So in other words, the only successful Marty Stus they have written, are nothing more than bit players in a supporting role?

“Have no fear. Moishe and I will make clear that anyone who threatens harm to you will answer to us.”

“Moishe”? Why does he pronounce the other prophet’s name like a Yiddish speaker? And is it deliberate that this makes them sound even more like gangsters?

“Don’ worry about it. Anyone messes wit’cha, me and Moish gonna straighten him out. Mayveen?” 

“Have no fear. Moishe and I will make clear that anyone who threatens harm to you will answer to us.”

“Moishe”? Why does he pronounce the other prophet’s name like a Yiddish speaker? And is it deliberate that this makes them sound even more like gangsters?

“Don’ worry about it. Anyone messes wit’cha, me and Moish gonna straighten him out. Mayveen?” 

If you’re thinking of the part where Elijah calls down fire from heaven to consume his sacrifice, I should mention that the sweet little old Orthodox rabbi who taught me that story pointed out that he thinks there’s something suspicious going on with the sloshing of ‘water’ over the offering–specifically, something odd going on in a region that is not without crude oil

If you’re thinking of the part where Elijah calls down fire from heaven to consume his sacrifice, I should mention that the sweet little old Orthodox rabbi who taught me that story pointed out that he thinks there’s something suspicious going on with the sloshing of ‘water’ over the offering–specifically, something odd going on in a region that is not without crude oil

It is almost like Left Behind goes out of its way to avoid actual action.

Because it requires far more imagination than the average RTC can muster.

When I read the “18 months later,” I had this sudden, horrendous feeling of despair that these nitwits teach a writing seminar.  It hasn’t abated yet…

I can’t believe they had Elijah call on the phone.

He always was good at screwing with people’s heads.

Now can someone explain to me why RTCs “believe on” Jesus, instead of “believe in” Jesus?

I’m sure someone else knows better, but it sounds to me like some now-departed preacher’s old-fashioned Appalachian turn of phrase that kept going because it sounded more old-timey and mysterious to the next generation.

Whenever Nicolae and the two preachers are together in a scene Nicolae will wring in his hands in impotent rage at his inability to do anything to them, while the preachers engage in the most meanspirited, childish humiliation of Nicolae in the history of literature. The only thing they don’t do is pants Nicolae.A sample…

Carpathia appeared startled when Moishe suddenly spoke in a loud voice. “Woe unto the enemy of the Most High God!”Nicolae seemed to quickly collect himself. He smiled and spoke softly. “I am hardly the enemy of God,” he said. “Many say I am the Most High God.”Moishe moved for the first time, crossing his arms over his chest. Carpathia, his chin in his hand, cocked his head and studied Moishe. The ancient witness spoke softly, and Buck knew only he and Carpathia could hear him.“A sword shall pierce your head,” Moishe said in a haunting monotone. “And you shall surely die.”Buck shivered, but it was clear that Carpathia was unmoved. “Let me tell you and your companion something,” he said through clenched teeth. “You have persecuted Israel long enough with the drought and the water turned to blood. You will lift your hocus-pocus or live to regret it.”Eli rose and … spoke with such volume that the crowd dispersed and ran, and even Tsion and Chloe recoiled.“Until the due time, you have no authority over the lampstands of God Almighty!”…Carpathia’s smirk remained, but Buck was convinced he was seething. “We shall see,” he said, “who will win in the end.”Eli seemed to look through Carpathia. “Who will win in the end was determined before the beginning of time. Lo, the poison you inflict on the earth shall rot you from within for eternity.”Carpathia stepped back, still grinning. “I warn you to stay away from the charade of the so-called saints. I have guaranteed their safety, not yours.”Eli and Moishe spoke in unison. “He and she who have ears, let them hear. We arebound neither by time nor space, and those who shall benefit by our presence andtestimony stand within the sound of our proclamation.”Buck thrilled at the message and looked beyond the square to where Tsion stoodwith Chloe. The rabbi thrust his fists in the air as if he had gotten the message, andhe walked Chloe back toward, the car.From Book #5 Apollyon

Buck thrilled at the message and looked beyond the square to where Tsion stoodwith Chloe. The rabbi thrust his fists in the air as if he had gotten the message, andhe walked Chloe back toward, the car.From Book #5 Apollyon

It’s like Nicky is trying to stand up for poor, bullied Israel, and these two bullies don’t like being told to stop acting like jerks. And the fans are rooting for the bullies.

I imagine that in heaven right now CS Lewis is calling tolkien, saint Paul, mozes, elijah, gabriel etc while shouting : dude check out Fred’s last post.
 
While Jesus is smiling and says: now that’s a true believer.

The “lampstands” of God Almighty?

Now I am talking about Lewis I remember what he said about writing Screwtape that it was easy to get in character but it was tiring for him to write such a petty person with no virtues.

But Fred EIGHT fucking years of deconstructing this shit, and you NEVER dropped the ball in this game.

I said it billion times before; you should write a book because sir you ARE a great writer especially after reading this article, and all those others before.
It is a shame that they fired you because sir you are a genius.

Hey, don’t leave out Sam Clemens and Isaac Asimov!

Personally, I’ve always imagined Lewis and Tolkien reading The World’s Worst Books, saying “Okay, that’s nice, you’ve said your part now stop helping us… Tell you what, why don’t you try playing for the other side for a while?”

Did he “somehow” convince her that he was, indeed, the prophet Elijah,
returned in the flesh nearly 3,000 years after the sweet chariot swung
low for to carry him home?

Fred, this is why I love you.

Off topic caveat

I haven’t visited the old Slacktivist site … until now.  And it’s a good thing that I haven’t.  Out of silly curiosity (and perhaps ego) I checked to see whether my name was mentioned since my departure … and discovered shocking information about myself that a commenter reported.  I had inadvertently derailed (guilty as charged) a Tribulation Force thread into what became a heated debate about Happy Meal prohibitions and the Affordable Care Act …

Re: Aunursa…He was insulting to the point of wishing death upon people for the crime of being the afflicted, ignored everyone’s rebuttals while taking even the slightest concession as being complete agreement with him, and if you criticize him directly he accuses you of Nazi-name-calling in his “elevated” discourse.

Alas, the poster failed to note that I bragged about the number of puppies that I have personally tortured and drowned and the elderly ladies that I pushed into oncoming traffic.

The “lampstands” of God Almighty?

Probably refers to Revelation 11:4

Fred, you’ve outdone yourself on this one. You owe me three new keyboards. No sooner had I had replaced the last after spraying it than you gave me reason to get another.

Also, did the prophets really say there that they were not bound by space-time? And yet…they have entered into space-time? THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS! Eli and “Moishe” are avatars of Yog-Sothoth, greatest of the great gods, mightier than the Daemon Sultan Azathoth, wiser than the all-seeing Yibb-Tstll.

Given that they are avatars are the Great One, why did they not just appear in Tsion’s home? To be waiting inside a character’s home without being let in, even the wife who was in occupance the entire time only just noticing you? I’d be scared shitless of them.

Another thought, it’s a rookie mistake to think that Biblical or Historical figures have to talk in stilted Ye Olde King Jamesian. Maybe you don’t want talking slang (unless it’s a comic piece) but it’s actually more effective to have them talking in the venacular of the day. It impresses how the walls between the supernatural and the real have fallen. Instead of hearing some potted Biblical language having a voice on the telephone say “I am Elijah, God’s choosen.You and your family are in terrible danger. You must flee now. Moses and I will protect you, hurry and may God be with you. :click:”

Of course there’s a Right Behind story that posits Moshie and Eli as mysterious clocks that show up at the Western Wall that’s fantastic and in a few short paragraphs give a much bigger sense of coming apocalyptic doom than this series.

Jerry Jenkins Responds to Readers’ Questions
Carol: I am very disturbed by what I read when reading Glorious Appearing. I was to the part of the book when Jesus returned. I know the difference between fact and fiction, and I understand that this book is fiction based on fact … but even in fiction, the facts must be presented correctly.

Jerry Jenkins: I couldn’t agree with you more. That’s why I would never dare have something come from Jesus’ mouth about Himself and His character that was not straight from Scripture.
…
LB: Some readers commented that Jesus’ words sounded too stilted at times, primarily because of the use of the formal language of the New King James translation instead of using a more contemporary translation, such as the New Living Translation or a paraphrase like the Living Bible or the Message. As Jerry Jenkins said, he and Dr. LaHaye chose not to put words in Jesus’ mouth, so they quoted extensively from Scripture. Those familiar with Dr. LaHaye’s writing and speaking know of his preference for the King James version.

Jerry Jenkins Responds to Readers’ Questions
Carol: I am very disturbed by what I read when reading Glorious Appearing. I was to the part of the book when Jesus returned. I know the difference between fact and fiction, and I understand that this book is fiction based on fact … but even in fiction, the facts must be presented correctly.

Jerry Jenkins: I couldn’t agree with you more. That’s why I would never dare have something come from Jesus’ mouth about Himself and His character that was not straight from Scripture.
…
LB: Some readers commented that Jesus’ words sounded too stilted at times, primarily because of the use of the formal language of the New King James translation instead of using a more contemporary translation, such as the New Living Translation or a paraphrase like the Living Bible or the Message. As Jerry Jenkins said, he and Dr. LaHaye chose not to put words in Jesus’ mouth, so they quoted extensively from Scripture. Those familiar with Dr. LaHaye’s writing and speaking know of his preference for the King James version.

“Tsion answered the phone and motioned for Buck to pick up the extension in the other room.”

Tsion Ben-Judah just became Buck Williams’ favorite person in the whole world. Share your telephone with Buck and you’ve got a friend for life.

Given the near-erotic dimensions that telephones have aquired in this series, does this mean that Buck just had a three-way with Jewy McJewerstein and The Great Prophet Zarquan Elijah?
 

Have you ever seen the Last Temptation of Christ? It has all of the characters speak in their normal voices- which, in Harvey Keitel’s case, means a strong New Yawk accent- and the effect is to remind you that classwise, these were ordinary people, fishermen and carpenters and things, not kings and (again, classwise) Great Men. It’s one of the many aspects of the movie that shocks you out of “I’m watching a Biblical Epic” boredom and helps you to think of it as an actual, meaningful story.

Which, obviously, would be the last thing Left Behind would want. Stilted Elizabethan English all the way!

This doesn’t relate really to the post here, but I’ve been reading this site for a while, and started out as a jackass atheist and became much less of a jackass thanks to this site, although I’m still an atheist. I still have huge issues with religion, but I’ve really become a lot more open-minded towards people of faith.  I realized this today when I encountered a guy who could have been me (an ass) until not-so-long ago, and realized if it weren’t for slacktivist/verse I would be that obnoxious guy. Thank you, Fred, for helping me learn to be nicer to people, and how to really listen to people who I disagree, because they may be really cool people. 

Yeah, I realize this is off-topic. I just thought it was important to say thanks for changing me for the better. Not just Fred, but all of you awesome comm-enters, too. Thank you! 

That would be me, yes. I exaggerated slightly, obviously, probably from lack of spoons (though having just re-read some of the thread in question, TF: Trust Busting, with a cooler head, I wouldn’t entirely redact that last point). As that was quite some time ago, the second TF post on Patheos, and we’ve been rather cordial since, perhaps forgive and forget might be best?

That particular phrasing is used in several places in the New Testament, at least in the KJV.  The are also verses where the phrase “believe in” is used.  You’d have to ask someone who knows the Greek why it’s translated that way in each case.

Last Temptation is one of my favorite religious films and I never thought of that aspect of it but you’re right. The casting might seem odd at first, but having the characters talk to each other like they would talk to each other, as friends, parents, and ex lovers takes the startch out that stiffens up and sands down most Biblical movies  and portrayals of Jesus. Because had you been there you most likely would not be going “Truly this man is the son of God!” but rather “This dude seems to have lost his mind!”

“But then Tsion is probably nervous and a bit frightened. He was just on
TV describing Daniel as “the greatest of all Hebrew prophets,” then his
phone rings and he finds out that Elijah and Moses want to have a word
with him. Oh, and they can breathe fire. I’d be scared too.”

Hilarious Fred. I needed that one.

Yeah, the protection racket of the two witnesses is freaky. But actually, is it credible? The Bible says ‘literally’ that anyone who attacks the witnesses will be engulfed in flames. Now they’re allowed to use that power for offensive purposes, destroying people who don’t lay a hand on them, but bother their friends? Or has Tsion been recruited into the 144000 strong army of singing Jewish non-virgins? I don’t think so, because I don’t think he’s going to die along with them. Either way, Tsion is now under the explicit and outspoken protection, throug threats of lethal violence, of the two witnesses… who he now knows (like the good RTC he is) will die through horrible violence by the Anti-Christ’s supporters soon. And then his Godfathers will be dead, their enemies will be out for blood, and Tsion will be marked as their best buddy. Yeah, he has nothing to worry about.

Also, when the hell did the witnesses watch TV? They were just preaching and preaching, and occasionally resting. I don’t get the impression they were keeping an eye on the Jerusalem TV guide to check for interesting shows.

Also, when the hell did the witnesses watch TV?

Isn’t it obvious? The aliens that abducted them installed a transceiver so they could assume manual control whenever they want, and that’s the one that picked up the TV signal.

Okay, so from that snippet two questions occur to me. First of, I would like to give L&J’s some props for giving a somewhat convincing presentation of the AC where he sounds like he’s making decent points for the good of the people, responding to the problems caused by the Tribulation and presenting himself as the leader who is best suited to fix them. But now I wonder if they actually realized it. Did they realize Nicky was making a fair point here? Or are they fully operating under the reasoning of if it’s prophecised that God will do it, it is by definition good?

And secondly, is ‘the appointed time’ really the only factor? Nicky can’t kill them now, but he can kill them after one arbitrary moment has passed, even though it has no relevance? He doesn’t perform a desecration first that makes them lose their powers, or has the Jews denounce God or something? Come to think of it, doesn’t it get established later that the AC knows the Bible, and is doing exactly what (L&J claim) it says because he wants to have a fight with Jesus? Then he should know he can’t touch the witnesses yet, and know he can’t talk them down. Why is he even trying to talk with them?

This all leads to a point that I think better describes why L&J suck compared with Dan Brown. Dan Brown also pushes his own weird religious interpetations through his books, but at least coats the events in a narrative. Something must happen according to his interpetation, so he writes events around that fact to make it happen. L&J don’t care. Every event happens in turn from the timetable. It doesn’t flow. There’s no sense that one logically leads to the other. Nicky could rise up as a trustee of the Jews when he ‘saves’ their land from the drought by showing them how to kill the witnesses. But no, that’s not the order in which it happens. The Jews decide to trust him for no reason, while at the same time being more receptive than ever to Christians converting them to distrust the same person.

“Believe on” is King Jamesese. I think the difference between “believe in” and “believe on” is that the former = assent to a truth proposition, and the latter = put your trust in. Thus the bit about the “devil believes that – and trembles”. But these days I think they mostly do it to make a point about having the “right” Bible version.

Thank you, Parisienne & Lindenharp.

That makes sense, sort of, in both ways…but it still sounds odd to me. Does anyone know if the respective “ins” and “ons” are different in the originals?

I really should know better than to read these posts in the library. All quiet, the occasional takita-takita of typing, and then suddenly *not-very-well-stifled SPORFLE* and all is quiet again.

Awesome post, Fred.

“Really, the two preachers are the most unlikeable, arrogant, belligerent
characters in the entire series. They talk like they have brooms up
their asses and won’t let anyone else speak until they’re done insulting
other people.

And what’s more they have the power to kill or
torment anyone they please, and no one can stop them. And they are
invincible.”
That really sounds like L&J’s god right there…

He’s the immensely powerful superhuman bully you have to worship… or else.

“this incongruous mental image of two bearded old men in sackcloth and aviator shades”

ZZ Top?

I don’t know.  I get the impression that the writers and their audience are terrified of accidentally deviating from (what they believe is in) the bible.  If they get too creative with how events unfold, it’s like they are committing blasphemy against the word of God.  What if the anti-Christ was able to bring harm to Eli and Moses?  What if he killed them before they were supposed to die according to Revelations?  That would screw up the prophecy!  God’s unchangeable plan falls apart!  They can’t have that, so they can’t have all that much drama outside of the events that Revelations explicitly details.  So what’s left?  Endless details of the minutia of the meaningless mortals’ lives.  Travel plans, meals, petty internal dialog.  Bland crap.

As someone who was never part of the Christian community, this was always something that bothered me about the Abrahamic narrative.  There is never really anything at stake for God.  The devil already lost one battle against God, and it sounds like it wasn’t even close.  A fallen and battered angel is not a credible threat against a god.  Defiant and evil mortals are even more of a joke as enemies of a deity.  God/Jesus can’t lose and God has no rivals.  The Olympians had their Titans; the Norse gods had Loki and the giants to contend with.  Not God.  He’s all alone on a throne with a host of angels telling Him that He is the greatest.  After the events of Revelations, I guess He’ll also have a host of Bucks and Tsions telling Him that He’s great.  Forever.  ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…

Yes, that comment about you was way out of line. My memory of your posts at the old Slacktivist site is that whenever anyone would criticize a specific self-identified conservative (an important caveat) or criticize some aspect of conservatism, your response would allege that the critic was being hypocritical for not saying the same things about liberals or liberalism. Instead of offering rebuttals for the criticisms themselves, you were apparently treating the criticisms as matters of honor versus defamation.

Gosh, I didn’t connect your screenname and realize that you were posting on both sites.  At any rate, my reaction to your assessment was not anger but amusement.  I’m glad that you have had the chance to read more of my thoughts and adjust your opinion about my contributions.  To quote from the acclaimed philosopher Keisuke Miyagi: ”Oh Sato, nothing to forgive.”

Tonio: The comment I quoted was posted on the old site in response to a discussion on this new site. And now to quote another philosopher: “And that’s all I’ve got to say ’bout that.”

[D]oesn’t it get established later that the AC knows the Bible, and is doing exactly what (L&J claim) it says because he wants to have a fight with Jesus?

It’s established that Satan knows the Bible.  Satan does not take over Nicky’s body until the end of Book #7, The Indwelling. 

“The old man plans to send the son to set up the kingdom he predicted more than three hundred times in his book, and he even tells where the son will land! Ladies and gentlemen, we will have a surprise waiting for him…  If we, the rulers of the earth, combine all our resources and attack the Jews, the son has to come to their defense, That is when we turn our sights on him and eliminate him. That will give us total control of the earth, and we will be ready to take on the father for mastery of the universe.”
Nicolae had made two rounds of the table and returned to his chair, looking spent. “It is in their Bible,” he said. “And they claim never to lie. We know right where he will be.”

From Book #11: Armageddon

Comic writers have talked about a similar problem in writing for Superman, since he’s far and away more powerful than 99 percent of the beings he would ever encounter. John Byrne’s reinterpretation of Lex Luthor was one good solution, giving our hero a villain who couldn’t be defeated with physical powers and abilities. And Jeph Loeb has said that Superman’s real weakness is his heart, he cares too much.

Dumb rhetorical question – why should there be something at stake for the Christian god. The lack of such a stake would be a major weakness if we were talking about storytelling on its own merits. But I know of no one who argues that the veracity of theology hinges on whether the stories in scripture qualify as good or bad storytelling. Arguably, the reasons that the Greek myths have endured is because of their storytelling and artistic merits.

Good point about the Bucks and Tsions. Dreadful toadying and barefaced flattery. Almost like their god is one of those entertainers with retinues of yes-people and opportunistic hangers-on. I’ve read some gossip about the alleged protocol that Diana Ross’s staffers had to follow in her presence.

Why am I somehow hearing Eli and Moishe talk with jon stewarts new Jersey accent.

Hey, wait a minute – are there any Jews who find it particularly infuriating that Ellanjay are hijacking Moses and Elijah to push an agenda and a viewpoint that treat Jews as proto-Christians in denial? Is this the fictional equivalent of Mormons posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims, or does that comparison go too far?

The devil already lost one battle against God, and it sounds like it wasn’t even close.

The devil was outnumbered 2 to 1 according to the most common narrative I’ve heard.  Defeat makes sense even when you ignored the fact that the winning side included an omnipotent enemy.

Anyway, this is where the devil in any narrative I’d make about this points out that:
a) They’ve been breeding an army in the intervening years while God hasn’t made a new angel since creation.  Now Hell out numbers Heaven.
b) Back then the world wasn’t fallen yet, and that fact was what gave God the upper hand.  Now that the world is fallen the balance of power has shifted.
c) All of the souls now damned to Hell have been tapped as an energy source that will be used to tip the balance of power in favor of Hell
d) Many of the loyalist angels have had second thoughts since then, having seen what God did to their rebel friends, Hell has allies inside of Heaven who will, at the opportune moment, attack.
e) A lot of the angels who stayed loyal did so not because they liked God, but because they liked humans, now that God is exterminating the humans they have no reason to remain on Heaven’s side, meanwhile the devil can say (honestly or not, depending on the story) that he’s reconsidered his stance and really doesn’t wish humanity harm.
f) Christopher Walken The Archangel Gabriel has started a second war in Heaven, meaning that the army of Heaven has been killing itself off for a while, now is an ideal time to strike.
g) Back then they didn’t have [insert Hell's only hope here].
h) Fight?  Why the Hell would we fight?  We’re trying to escape.  (If evil: We’re going to blow up the Earth as a distraction and then sneak away in the kerfuffle.)
or
i) Anything that would make this not a foregone conclusion.

There is never really anything at stake for God.

Something I have heard, which requires that God have no control over Hell or who goes there and thus doesn’t seem to fit with an omnipotent God, is that God loves humanity and doesn’t want them to suffer.  Since the devil realized that he had no chance against God he decided to hurt him indirectly by attacking humanity.  (Which is, directly or indirectly, where the blame for earthly suffering lies and also why the devil wants to damn people’s souls.)  What God has at stake is that if he doesn’t play his cards right people he loves will spend eternity suffering.

If you imagine someone you really care about suffering for all eternity because you screwed up, you’ll probably consider that pretty high stakes.

Obviously that doesn’t apply to LB-God.

Another thought, it’s a rookie mistake to think that Biblical or
Historical figures have to talk in stilted Ye Olde King Jamesian. Maybe
you don’t want talking slang (unless it’s a comic piece) but it’s
actually more effective to have them talking in the venacular of the
day.

This is obviously true, but it’s also true that this requires giving some thought to what the vernacular of the day would sound like. Research might even be required. Jenkins obvious doesn’t do that. Ever.

The Jews decide to trust him for no reason, while at the same time being more receptive than ever to Christians converting them to distrust the same person.To demonstrate your point in a single sentence:

“I will give you that privilege one day, my friend,” Rosenzweig said. “But not the night before one of the biggest days of your life.  And I must tell you, I  would sooner believe Jesus was the Messiah than that Nicolae is his enemy.  That is simply not the man I know.”From Book #5: Apollyon

To demonstrate your point in a single sentence:

“I will give you that privilege one day, my friend,” Rosenzweig said. “But not the night before one of the biggest days of your life.  And I must tell you, I  would sooner believe Jesus was the Messiah than that Nicolae is his enemy.  That is simply not the man I know.”From Book #5: Apollyon

Hey, wait a minute – are there any Jews who find it particularly infuriating that Ellanjay are hijacking Moses and Elijah to push an agenda and a viewpoint that treat Jews as proto-Christians in denial?

You want a Jewish perspective?  Okay…  Christian theologians hijack the entire Hebrew Bible — change the name of my sacred scripture to the “Old Testament” (which by definition is superceded by a “New” Testament), and abuse all of the Jewish prophets — all in order to push an agenda that my religion is nothing more than a stepping stone to Jesus.  And you want me to get all bent out of shape over the fact that L&J are merely continuing this fine Christian tradition?

Okay, that settles “learned under.” Now can someone explain to me why RTCs “believe on” Jesus, instead of “believe in” Jesus?

Given what they’re doing to the Christian faith, I think “on” is probably the correct proposition.

And you want me to get all bent out of shape over the fact that L&J
are merely continuing this fine Christian tradition?

Not just continuing it, but doing so in a hugely public way. And inventing Jewish characters who treat their own (former) religion as though it was a recently cured madness. And peddling gross anti-Semitic stereotypes through euphemisms such as “international bankers.”

Part of my objection was my suspicion that Moses and Elijah have cultural significance even for Jews who aren’t devout, so they would also take offense at Ellanjay’s particular spin on the “fine Christian tradition” but for somewhat different reasons.

And you want me to get all bent out of shape over the fact that L&J
are merely continuing this fine Christian tradition?

Not just continuing it, but doing so in a hugely public way. And inventing Jewish characters who treat their own (former) religion as though it was a recently cured madness. And peddling gross anti-Semitic stereotypes through euphemisms such as “international bankers.”

Part of my objection was my suspicion that Moses and Elijah have cultural significance even for Jews who aren’t devout, so they would also take offense at Ellanjay’s particular spin on the “fine Christian tradition” but for somewhat different reasons.

From Book #12 - Glorious Appearing:

I can’t retype that.  I am ashamed to share a planet (much less a nominal religious persuasion) with the sort of monsters who could worship a being who would causally toss people into an eternal fiery pit as they scream for mercy.

That is seriously upsetting.

From Book #12 - Glorious Appearing:

I can’t retype that.  I am ashamed to share a planet (much less a nominal religious persuasion) with the sort of monsters who could worship a being who would causally toss people into an eternal fiery pit as they scream for mercy.

That is seriously upsetting.

“I’m sorry, ‘Paul’ was it?”

“Yes, Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for …”

“Good to meet you, Paul, I’m Bob. From accounting.”

Why do I imagine Bob having horns?

Or he could suddenly write: “Nine books later” and carry on from there …

Sagrav & aunursa: I thought about those two point, but my posts drag on as it is without me writing every single tangent down But since it’s mentioned:

Given how much they already cut up the different passages for their timeline, it wouldn’t have been all that odd for at least LaHaye who derived the timeline to look at it a bit more and try to put it in a logical order. The fact that he believes for a fact that this weird order is true might excuse him from being a hack (well, not really but on this particular point) but it also implies he thinks God is the hack. That he believes there isn’t so much a Divine Plan as a random series of events that God said would happen with no connection between them, and that now God is committed to staying the course and is now using his omnipotence to make these events happen in turn, without any connection between the events. This was already kinda obvious, in that according to LB the tribulation involves A) God using explicit miracles in an attempt to get all the unsaved’s attention at the last moment B) Killing the people with those explicit miracles, thus prematurely making sure they don;t get saved while letting a super-charismatic agent of satan with mind control powers run around trying to make sure people turn away from God. There is a coherence problem there somewhere.

And yeah, the indwelling, however it exactly works. But pre-indwelling-Nicky is already moving exactly according to plan, with his move to Babylon despite having no connection to that place, and signing a treaty with Israel for no purpose. So either he knows it too (and given some of the dialogue with Rayford he is at least familiar with the Bible) or Satan is giving him the instructions, which then still leaves the question why he would go out and talk to the witnesses if it won’t help. Note he also doesn’t try to kill them right then and there, so he is aware it’s not going to work just yet.

And on the subject of the devil following the prophecies because he’ll know where Jesus will be (does Revelations actually mention the location?), I said it before, but you’d think he’d have read through to the part where it says he loses. You’d think he’d try to go off-script at some point to see if that works. And it nicely couples back to the previous point: L&J are aware that they believe in a Divine Bunch Of Events. Even the devil himself has no reason to do what he does, other than that he read it in LaHaye’s books, I mean the Bible. So not only are all the murderous miracles God’s fault, but everything Nicky does too. He’s only killing the Jews because God says he has to do it before Jesus comes back. God could’ve written “And then the beast build a puppy shelter and helped grandma’s safely cross the street for seven years, and then Jesus comes back to ask if satan is ready to turn over a new leaf” and Nicky/Satan would’ve done it so they’d have an even better shot at Jesus. The events follow no plan, and the devil is just playing along with what God wrote in his hack-novel. THAT’s what L&J’s belief comes down to.

But on the positive side, again, at least we’re spared 18 months of cab rides, cookies and phone calls. For that much I’m grateful.

You mean that the 18 month jump doesn’t land in a scene where Rayford and Buck panic that they haven’t chatted on the phone for a while, so they immediately call each other to talk about all the taxi rides, plane trips and phone conversations they’ve had in the past year and a half, while snacking on cookies?  

I share your revulsion. I’m hoping that such people define “worship” as showing (what they define as) proper respect to (what they define as) authority, instead of showing adoration or love. In another thread, I mentioned the idea that these believers may have a sense of misplaced responsibility when it comes to “sinners,” believing that their god would hold the entire human race responsible if some humans engage in, say, gay sex.

Why do I imagine Bob having horns?

Because you watched BtVS and/or Angel?

The condemned deserve to suffer for all eternity because they made Jesus sad that he has to punish them.

Bloody disqus ate my reply again. So,once again:@Sagrav:disqus : That just shifts the blame from LaHaye being a hack to LaHaye believing God is a hack. That he believes there isn’t a Divine Plan to this whole tribulation, but a bunch of random plagues God sprouted out (possibly during a divine acid trip) and how God is committed to staying the course and will make these events happen. Come to think of it, that does explain the briliant timing of roling out two plans at once: Using explicit miracles as a last attempt to get unsaved people to convert and using those miracles to kill unsaved people while letting an super-charismatic agent of satan that can control unsaved people’s minds to punish them. Kinda working at cross-purposes there.@aunursa:disqus : True, but Nicky is already following the Divine Plan. He’s moved the UN to Babylon despite having no connection to the place, and is signing a peace treaty with Israel he doesn’t need. Either he also knows or Satan is giving him instructions, which brings us once again to the question why he’s confronting the witnesses (but not ordering them killed right then and there, so he knows it won’t work apparently)

And on the subject of satan following LaHaye’s boo… I mean the Bible: Didn’t he ever read the whole thing up to where it says he’ll lose? Shouldn’t he try to get off script at least once, just to see if it’s possible, before indwelling Nicky?

It nicely couples back to the previous point: This is the Divine Random Bunch Of Stuff, not the Divine Plan. Even when L&J write the Devil himself, they can’t have him come up with any better explanation for his actions than “Let’s do what this crazy timeline says, for no other reason that it says it and I like the part just before the end”. If God had written that Beast would hug puppies for seven years before Jesus comes back (to offer forgiveness to Satan, so he’s not only back but his guard might be down more than when he comes back to kick ass and take names, would he’d have done it?

Oh, it didn’t eat it. Sry for the double post :p

But pre-indwelling-Nicky is already moving exactly according to plan, with his move to Babylon despite having no connection to that place, and signing a treaty with Israel for no purpose. So either he knows it too (and given some of the dialogue with Rayford he is at least familiar with the Bible) or Satan is giving him the instructions, which then still leaves the question why he would go out and talk to the witnesses if it won’t help. Note he also doesn’t try to kill them right then and there, so he is aware it’s not going to work just yet.

Does Nicky (either on his own or at the direction of Satan) deliberately act in alignment with the prophecies?  I speculate on what L&J would say: that Nicky has his own reasons for following his course of action … and that his fulfillment of prophecy just proves the divine origin of the Bible.  It’s amazing that God knew what Nicky was going to do thousands of years before he did it.
I said it before, but you’d think he’d have read through to the part where it says he loses.

I once raised this point with a Christian theologian, who replied that the Prince of Darkness is so vain that he undoubtably believes that he can change the ending.

“ins and ons in the originals”
- Well in Greek the word would be the same, and indicated by the case of the noun.
(More like “believe toward”)

that only just hit you? Oh, and it doesn’t abate

the comment I quoted was posted on the old site in response to a discussion on this new site.

Am I the only one that finds this bothersome, quite apart from the actual content of the comments?

that reminds me, how many? I’ve got 37 puppies in the sweepstake.

Piling on to the Fred-praise this week, I really liked this bit:

He worked for decades to establish a position as a distinguished scholar and a respected figure within Judaism and he just left all that behind him, burning his bridges with a very public rejection of both Judaism and scholarship.

Oh man, there’s so much I want to say on the topic of time skips, when they’re appropriate and when they’re not (look at me, going on like I’m a real writer!), but I think I’ll need to organize my thoughts into a couple of upcoming posts, otherwise things are gonna get real wall-o-texty real fast.

Another thought, it’s a rookie mistake to think that Biblical or Historical figures have to talk in stilted Ye Olde King Jamesian.

The interesting thing is that it’s been established that when the Two Witnesses speak, listeners hear the words in their own native tongue.  Which means that whatever holy autotranslator Moses and Elijah are using, either it comes with a built-in King James module, or they haven’t updated the software since 1604.

Or a third theory is that this is how Tsion hears everybody speak, which opens up a whole host of amusing possibilities.  Maybe he’s like Kenneth from 30 Rock and he also sees everyone as Muppets.  Muppets speaking King James English.  I mean, why not?  It makes as much sense as anything else.

Some readers commented that Jesus’ words sounded too stilted at times, primarily because of the use of the formal language of the New King James translation instead of using a more contemporary translation, such as the New Living Translation or a paraphrase like the Living Bible or the Message. As Jerry Jenkins said, he and Dr. LaHaye chose not to put words in Jesus’ mouth, so they quoted extensively from Scripture.

Here I go talking like a real writer again, but as a rule, a character tends to find their own voice once the author becomes familiar with them.  So I think an alternate explanation for L&J not writing much original dialogue for Jesus is that they don’t know Jesus very well.  I don’t even mean that in a theological sense, necessarily — I mean they don’t even know their Jesus very well; their TurboJesus, who is to some degree a being of their own creation.

I think it’s telling that L&J had eleven books to prepare for the Glorious Appearing, it’s a scene they knew they’d eventually have to write, and when they got there they still didn’t feel sufficiently confident about what Jesus would do and say in that situation, so they just played it safe and gave him canned dialogue from the source material.

I think we we could also use “upon” and “all over.”

“Oh, I’m gonna believe all over Jesus, that’s right.”

I think that the best way to explain the situation of Satan in a story such as this, barring an second prophecy with a different ending (or, you know, attempts to not fulfill the prophecies), is to assume that the situation represents a Nash equilibrium.  Or something similar to a Nash equilibrium.

It’s not necessarily that playing along is makes Satan more likely to win than lose, it is that not playing along would make things worse.  For example, if Satan doesn’t show up at the final battle, God will definitely be able to establish a beachhead on earth.  Letting God do that probably won’t improve Satan’s chances of winning.  If Satan deviates from the prophecy, then he has no way of knowing where and when God plans to invade in the end, he also has no way of knowing what God is going to throw at him, where as now he’s got God’s entire game plan.

In Left Behind Satan doesn’t do anything with that game plan, but in a better story he’d be preparing to the best of his ability for each of the Judgments.  He’d be stockpiling food and instituting global earthquake preparedness measures.  He’d be digging underground bunkers people can live in when God changes the sun to make the surface unlivable.

I’m not sure what specific lines are being referenced, but a common phrase in the context of salvation is “pistis tou Iesou” or “pistis tou Cristo.” I am given to understand that translated this means “faith/belief of Jesus/Christ.” Very ambiguous phrase that. It has three different possible meanings, all of which are supported by other lines in the Bible, and that phrase itself doesn’t lend itself to a specific one or two of these interpretations:

A) It could mean “faith in Jesus.” The translation that virtually every Bible these days uses  is indeed a valid interpretation. However, by actually making the choice to enshrine that interpretation, they remove ambiguity that firmly exists in the text.
B) It could mean “Jesus’ faith”; as in, you are saved if you share the faith that Jesus had. Due to the particular meaning of faith in this context, this would roughly mean that only those who, if push came to shove, would go up on a cross like Jesus for the sake of mankind would be saved.
C) Again it could mean “Jesus’ faith” but in a slightly different way. This interpretation (still textual) states that because Jesus had the faith that he did, dying on the cross, and only because he had that faith, we are all saved. I’m not sure if he makes this textual argument, but this is essentially what I understand Rob Bell’s argument to be from slightly more theological grounds.

(This message brought to you by the Jesus Seminar)

which then still leaves the question why he would go out and talk to the witnesses if it won’t help

Because Nicholae is still more of a hero than Buck or Rayford?

One quibble:

Even without the fire-breathing, that’s a pretty serious threat coming from Elijah. And if anything, Moses is even scarier.

Except they weren’t like that.  Yes, plagues, fire falling from the sky, et cetera, but both those guys were always clear it wasn’t them doing it, it was God.  They would never say “Anyone who threatens you will answer to us,” but “will answer to God.”

In some interpretations of Numbers 20:7-12, breaking that rule is why Moses was barred from the promised land.

“I once raised this point with a Christian theologian, who replied that the Prince of Darkness is so vain that he undoubtably believes that he can change the ending.”

So God wins the eternal war because Satan has the intelligence and foresight of a James Bond movie villain?  That really proves how great God is…

Re:  “Believe in” vs. “believe on,” I found this page.  The second commenter actually checks a concordance to see if the two English phrases are translations of different Greek words.  It turns out that they are, but there doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of difference between the meanings.  So, if you want to know why certain groups of evangelicals prefer one phrase over the other, going to the actual Bible doesn’t provide much of a clue.  I’m curious, too, since I belong to one of those mainline denominations the RTCs undoubtedly consider too modern and liberal.

In a different series, with different writers, cookies could have been a fruitful metaphor.  Wasn’t Rayford overcome when he smelled or tasted the last batch of cookies his wife made before the Big Poof?  Or was that actually fan commentary at Slacktivist?  Anyway, whether it’s one of the few bits of decent writing in the book or not, cookies as a symbol of the safety and comfort wrapped up in the word “home” could have been an increasingly poignant motif as the Tribulation Timeline ground inexorably along.  Eventually the ingredients for the simplest cookies would have been almost impossible to get.  Perhaps Chloe scrapes together enough butter, flour, and sugar for a tiny bowl of cookie dough, just plain shortbread because they can’t even find baking powder anymore, and it’s sitting on the counter with the oven on and the baking pan ready when Buck rushes in–but the jackbooted thugs have taken her.  So in the middle of evacuating the compromised safe house, he insists on camping by the oven for ten minutes to watch the cookies bake in an effort to keep them from scorching.  And he keeps the least scorched cookie in an old cocoa powder tin long after it’s gone stale.  Hoping.

Instead we get this.

Late to the party (as usual) on believing in/on/towards/all over,* but I’ll toss in what information I have.** I checked some of the verses using “believe in” and “believe on” in my handy-dandy, LaHaye-approved*** King James Version against the Greek, and I’m not seeing anything that makes sense as an in/on distinction. I do know that “believe on” was the more common form at the time the KJV was composed, but that “believe in” was also possible. My understanding is that they were merely variants with no special meaning distinction, rather like “on” and “upon” in certain contexts today.***

*Personally, I think what the Tribbles are doing is believing at Jesus, sort of like talking at someone. Jesus seems to be rather good at dodging their belief-missiles, though.
**I did read through the whole thread, and, while many people have commented in response to Amaryllis’ question, I didn’t see precisely the information I supplied. I’m sorry if I failed to notice someone’s contribution.
**Actually, my copy of the KJV is not really LaHaye-approved, as it does not contain Scofield’s notes. It is thus not really possible to read it and come up with anything like the “End Times” interpretation LaHaye subscribes to. It’s the copy my parents gave me back when I was child, and I had to insist on NOT having a Scofield Bible. I am in retrospect enormously proud of my 8-year-old self.

Not God.  He’s all alone on a throne with a host of angels telling Him that He is the greatest.  After the events of Revelations, I guess He’ll also have a host of Bucks and Tsions telling Him that He’s great.  Forever.  ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…

Reminds me of one of my favorite movie scenes of all time. Imagine all of Nicolae’s lines delivered by the late, great Peter Cook. Now that would be entertaining.

Interesting! They’re right that there are two Greek prepositions, but what they fail to note is that, not only is English in flux w/regard to “in” and “on” in the 16th century, but Koine Greek was in flux during the 2nd century. (Well, Koine Greek was in flux, period.) I did find, in looking through the relevant verses in my Greek New Testament, that KJV’s “believe in” versus “believe on” don’t pattern with the two Greek prepositions.

An unfortunate RTC practice is the assumption that the Greek Bible can be parsed at an extraordinarily precise level of detail, and that this detail is reflected in the KJV. I grew up RTC and remember many sermons that rely heavily on trying to make a distinction between things like “believe in” and “believe on.” I recall hearing of one where the speaker based his whole sermon on the distinction between two words (something like “mercy” versus “compassion”–that probably wasn’t the pair, but it was something like that) and when one was used as opposed to the other in some significant passage. Turns out, both of the English words were translations of the same word in Greek. The King James translators were just trying not to repeat the same word over and over. That kind of repetition was good rhetorical practice in the 2nd century, but tastes had changed.

Now that is how i imagine the devil: immature, petty, arrogant.
Just like Buck and Rayford.

I like the idea that the angels adore God because he’s just so adorable.

Perhaps Chloe scrapes together enough butter, flour, and sugar for a
tiny bowl of cookie dough, just plain shortbread because they can’t even
find baking powder anymore, and it’s sitting on the counter with the
oven on and the baking pan ready when Buck rushes in–but the jackbooted
thugs have taken her.  So in the middle of evacuating the compromised
safe house, he insists on camping by the oven for ten minutes to watch
the cookies bake in an effort to keep them from scorching.  And he keeps
the least scorched cookie in an old cocoa powder tin long after it’s
gone stale.  Hoping.

Oooo.  Jenny Islander, have you read Doris Egan’s [marvellous!] IVORY trilogy?  In the second volume, TWO-BIT HEROES, there’s a scene very like this, when the heroine insists on crawling over the rooftops of a besieged fortress under heavy fire, using makeshift stolen ingredients, to bake a batch of cookies for her lover, all the while acknowledging that this is an incredibly stupid thing to do.  And in the context of their relationship, and her motivations, and that particular alien culture, it makes me simultaneously cry and fist-pump every time I read it.

But that was Egan, and this is Ellenjay, so… never mind.

I think it’s telling that L&J had eleven books to prepare for the Glorious Appearing, it’s a scene they knew they’d eventually have to write, and when they got there they still didn’t feel sufficiently confident about what Jesus would do and say in that situation, so they just played it safe and gave him canned dialogue from the source material.

Or maybe they feared what Jesus would do in such a situation.

“I forgive you.”

To steal a riff from MST3K apparently God’s power lies in choosing
incompetent enemies.

And that was a revealing interview question and answer on writing dialogue
for Jesus. It not’s just lack of imagination. It’s knowing that your audience is
the Professionally Offended (TM) and knowing that they’ll clutch their pearls
like there’s no tomorrow if you write an original line of dialogue for our lord
and savior. For to do so makes them run the risk of having to think about their
faith, Is this something Jesus would say? Why? If it bothers me is it because
it’s completely out of Character? Why? Why do I believe Jesus acts this way or
that way?
 

Also, did the prophets really say there that they were not bound by
space-time? And yet…they have entered into space-time? THE ANSWER IS
OBVIOUS! Eli and “Moishe” are avatars of Yog-Sothoth, greatest of the
great gods, mightier than the Daemon Sultan Azathoth, wiser than the
all-seeing Yibb-Tstll.

That makes way more sense than them being Jesus-oriented. I guess that makes Nicky Nyarly, seriously pissed off that Yog-Sothoth wants to break his favorite toys.

So in the middle of evacuating the compromised safe house, he insists
on camping by the oven for ten minutes to watch the cookies bake in an
effort to keep them from scorching.  And he keeps the least scorched
cookie in an old cocoa powder tin long after it’s gone stale.  Hoping.

You actually made me tear up in sympathy to Buck freaking Williams. Well played.

Oh come on, you know I only said that to cover up my real plan, because I needed Jenkins to think that CamCam was still on his side. With or without Jenkins, CallMeBuck isn’t smart enough to put up any real fight.

Rest assured, with the help of a caper-movie-worthy con on the Jurisfiction agents, I have a plan to take down Ellenjay.

Rest assured, with the help of a caper-movie-worthy con on the Jurisfiction agents, I have a plan to take down Ellenjay.

I see you’ve already started. How else, in a book coauthored by
Mr. Beverly LaHaye, could a character the authors approve of make a point of
altering a biblical quote from “Let him who has ears to hear,…” to “He and she who
have ears, let them hear”?

My congratulation to your minions. It’s a small change and easily unnoticed, but it undermines everything Tim LaHaye stands for.

“Believe on” is a phrase used several times in the New Testament.  I was never certain what led translators to translate it that way.

Hey, wait a minute – are there any Jews who find it particularly infuriating that Ellanjay are hijacking Moses and Elijah to push an agenda and a viewpoint that treat Jews as proto-Christians in denial? Is this the fictional equivalent of Mormons posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims, or does that comparison go too far?

I accept that these are figures holy and significant to Christians (even though they’re MY mishpocheh, and we had them first), so I don’t find it so outrageous as all that, once I accept the basic premise of the books.

I find the baptism of Holocaust victims far more offensive, and I find the treatment of living modern Jews in the books much more annoying and insensitive.

This post has brought a couple of things to mind for me.  First, the line “Tsion answered the phone and motioned for Buck to pick up the extension in the other room.”  Is there a universal motion that means “pick up the other extension”?  I’ve tried inventing my own, and the message got rather lost in translation.  I suppose I have to give the authors kudos for not spending five pages describing the back and forth of “Sorry, what did you mean?” and “No, no, the office phone is on your *other* left!” (of course, in a better book that wouldn’t even be a question), but I think I much prefer my version where Buck was so excited at the possibility of fondling another phone that he radically misinterpreted Tsion’s gesture, which Tsion had intended to mean, “Feel free to grab a cold drink from the fridge; I’ll only be a moment.”

The other idea is a bit more over-arching.  Has anyone yet written a story where Nicky is one of the good guys?  People have discussed that the A/C is part of Zod’s master plan, so to go against the A/C is to go against Zod, but what if that went one step further?  What if Nicky was intentionally working for Zod (either because Zod asked or because Nicky thought it would be the Right Thing To Do)?  Just like Gabriel in the movie Constantine, Nicky/Zod believes that the best way to encourage believers is to give them someone to fight against.  Through that struggle their faith will be refined and purified.  

In this version, Nicky is only an incompetent Anti-Christ because the “heroes” are incompetent heroes.  Nicky is sitting there behind the scenes trying to figure out how to make his plans ever easier to fight against because otherwise he’ll crush all of the good guys in the first two weeks of the End Times, and then where will they be?  Between having to badger the “heroes” into “infiltrating” his evil empire, pretending not to hear them when he ought to be firing (or beheading) them, and letting known anti-OneWorldReligion activists walk around freely because they can’t be bothered to hide, he’d pretty much have to be throwing up his hands right now.  Maybe that’s why he eventually lets Satan indwell him – he’s decided that the Christians who are left are so incompetent/malicious that he’d rather work for the opposition.  The rest of his problems (such as trying to run a OWG with only four people) could be that he was planning on spending a lot longer preparing, but he had to move quickly after enough people got abducted by aliens to have the rest start thinking “rapture.”

Anyone else either know if someone’s written a scene like this or want to try writing one themselves?  

Why do I imagine Bob having horns?

If I remember right, there’s a scene in an episode of God, the Devil and Bob where Smeck is talking with the Devil and references, “Bob from accounting.”

So Reverend Rabbi goes on tv to say Jesus is the way, then runs out of the studio shouting for everyone to call this special toll free number for more information.  The first person who calls is the prophet Elijah.

(momentary pause in ongoing amazement.)

Elijah, who, as others have pointed out, admits he watches television.

(still amazed).

“Hello, yes?”

“This is prophet Elijah.  I’m here with Moses.  We saw you on tv.  Want to join our prayer group?”

Eighteen months later….

I concur with what others have said:  There is no end, no bottom, no limit, to the amazing awfulness of these books.  They go beyond bad.  They rise above awful.  They reach levels of insane nonsense that defy creedence, defy reason.  They challenge you to beleive they really exist.

If nothing else, this takes Left Behind’s telephone mania to–I was going to say it’s absolute extreme, but no, that would be assuming that they can’t get any worse.  And again, if there is one thing you can be absolutely sure of with these books, it’s that they can.  And they will. 

Dunno it it’s been written. I doubt I have the time. But it is troubeling that your theory, like many, many others, makes more sense than what actually happens.

And this is a bit late but: Tsion has been studying the most important thing ever for 3 years… and he didn’t think to tell his wife??? Changing religion when you’re married to someone of your old religion is always tricky, but letting her find out via a national broadcast is pretty damn cold. Plus, what if she’d died in the intervening time? Hypothetical bus and all that. And it’s the end of the world, so that’s likely to happen.

Which reminds me of another thing (there’s just so much wrong with this series), why did Tsion not get raptured? In 3 years he didn’t find out the magic words? We’ve already established he started out with Christian sources for his research, but even if we follow L&J’s bizarro logic and pretend those were Jewish sources, I don’t think you can do a 3 year research project and not have a pretty good idea as to the conclusion 2 weeks before you present your conclusions on TV. So he knew it all, and didn’t say the magic words. And as we all know, the magic words are neccesary, anyone who’s intelectually honest will find that in a literal reading of the Bible, just like every other tiny piece of RTC culture.

In The Grass is always Greener and it’s sequel Nicolae is on on god’s side, and being driven insane by the dissonance of it all.

I don’t know if anyone’s done one where Nicolae is constantly cutting back and upping his incompetence to match the opposition.

I wrote a few short bits over at Right Behind where the AntiChrist is a religious zealot who knows he’s just playing a role, knows he’s going to lose, and knows his job is to be so evil as to drive as many people as possible to God out of fear and terror.

It got really dark, really fast. Nicolae the zealot knows he’s evil; he knows that every horrible, sadistic, cruel thing he does is absolutely vital in getting people to seek out Jesus and repent. When Nicolae the zealot plans to ride a giant pig through the Stations of the Cross, he is completely aware of how much cruelty to the animal must be done, and knows that the more horrific and terrifying and vile it is, the better the recruitment for Jesus will be. He’s genuinely pleased by doing horrible things, and gets furiously angry when he can’t achieve as much horror as he wants.

Think Ozymandias on cocaine and ritalin. Think Fred Rogers tweaked out of his skull on steroids and crystal meth, full of hope and love for humanity and commanded by God to express it by being as horrible as possible, driving humanity to God the way cattle and sheep are driven, with goads and dogs and prods and pain and fear. This is a deeply terrifying Anti-Christ not because he hates God and wants to defy him, but because he loves God, and wants to do his part to bring souls to Him.

Nicky isn’t incompetent for having the Tribbies on staff; he needs them on staff to report on his evil and keep recruiting. He knows they’re part of God’s plan, which means they have to be part of his plans too!

I should add that if I were reading, say, a Stephen King or Alan Moore book where a professor is on tv talking about a dead murderer and saying the guy was really a dark magician, and then he went home and the phone rang it was the dead murderer calling?  That would work.  Somehow, that would still work.  But the whole Elijah-on-line-one-notion is just so–so stupid!  I mean, is he magically sending his thoughts through the telephone lines?  Can he access any electronic communication device at any time?  (can he speak to people through their TV sets or computers, for instance, like Dave Bowman in 2010?)  Or did he actually go to a physical phone, pick it up, dial a number….How?  They’re in that courtyard in Jerusalem, right?  Where’d they get a tv set, for that matter?!?!

I rather liked:

“Somehow I convinced her who I was.”

I picture Elijah saying the word “somehow” in a mock-innocent voice. Then I picture a jet of flame having come out of the phone receiver, briefly replacing the woman’s face with a solid mask of black ash, broken only by the whites of two widely-staring eyes. (Like in the old Warner Bros. cartoons.)

I concur with what others have said:  There is no end, no bottom, no limit, to the amazing awfulness of these books.  They go beyond bad.  They rise above awful.  They reach levels of insane nonsense that defy creedence, defy reason.  They challenge you to beleive they really exist.

I am reminded of this quote:

I rise to pay my small tribute to Dr. Harding. Setting aside a college professor or two and a half dozen dipsomaniacal newspaper reporters, he takes the first place in my Valhalla of literati. That is to say, he writes the worst English that I have ever encountered. It reminds me of a string of wet sponges; it reminds me of tattered washing on the line; it reminds me of stale bean soup, of college yells, of dogs barking idiotically through endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it. It drags itself out of the dark abysm of pish, and crawls insanely up to the topmost pinnacle of posh. It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and doodle. It is balder and dash.
-H.L. Mencken March 7, 1921

You could actually do a very cool story where some mad conspiracy theorist worked out all the steps of the Divine Plan, but it was a stupid, disconnected, meaningless plan and no one took him seriously.  Then events started happening, and at some point there’s the big A-HA where the reader realizes that this series of flowing, coherent, meaningful events *is exactly what the conspiracy theorist predicted*, only he was unable to provide the connective tissue.

Or rather, you my talented fellow bloggers could probably do this story.  L&J, not so much.

Is there a universal motion that means “pick up the other extension”?

*point at Buck*
*make that phone gesture where your index finger’s touches your ear and your little finger touches your mouth*
*point in general direction of extension*

*make that phone gesture where your index finger’s touches your ear and your little finger touches your mouth* *point in general direction of extension*

Hang loose?

*make that phone gesture where your index finger’s touches your ear and your little finger touches your mouth* *point in general direction of extension*

Hang loose?

*make that phone gesture where your index finger’s touches your ear and your little finger touches your mouth* *point in general direction of extension*

Hang loose?

Not what I was thinking of, but would work just as well.

And in all the time he was researching, Tsion never bothered to drop his wife the same oh-so-subtle hints he dropped to Buck.  Seriously, he’s converted without his wife noticing?  Or maybe she just thought that despite his conversion, he’d get up here on tv and behave himself like the professional scholar he’d been hired to be…

So let me get this straight – Buck and Chloe wait more than 18 months, then get married with a couple that’s known each other for …. how long?  Which wedding was actually planned and scheduled?  

Narrator: So God wins the eternal war because Satan has the intelligence and foresight of a James Bond movie villain?  That really proves how great
God is…

If anything, Turbo-God’s the James Bond villain in this equation, taking the whole Bond villain shtick to its most illogical and inefficient extremes.  First, like any Bond villain he lays out his evil Glorious plan for world domination Establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, but then he takes the added measure of having it written down in book format, translated into all languages, and distributed throughout the entire world.  Then he twiddles his thumbs for a millennium or two just to make sure that everyone has a chance to read his plan and be forewarned.  Then, and only then, he puts everyone into the obligatory slow-moving death trap (ie his series of plagues), only this trap outdoes all others in inefficiency in that it takes a full seven years to work.  Yet despite all this he still manages to successfully pull off his evil glorious scheme, because (we’re apparently supposed to assume) he’s just that awesome.  He gave everyone a 2,000 year head start and still won the race!  So, basically, L&J worship an apotheosized Auric Goldfinger.

I recommend reading their portions while listening to this bit by Nox Arcana.  It fits remarkably well.  Suitably evil. 

[W]hy did Tsion not get raptured? In 3 years he didn’t find out the magic words? We’ve already established he started out with Christian sources for his research, but even if we follow L&J’s bizarro logic and pretend those were Jewish sources, I don’t think you can do a 3 year research project and not have a pretty good idea as to the conclusion 2 weeks before you present your conclusions on TV.

During the first year of his study, Tsion confirmed the accuracy of the list of messianic passages provided by the Christian theologian Alfred Edersheim.  He spent the second year whittling this list down to 109 separate and distinct prophecies that the Messiah must fulfill.

At the beginning of the third year, Tsion expanded his study to books of history and other sacred writings, combing every record to see if he could find if anyone has ever lived up to the messianic qualifications.  He learned Arabic, Sanskrit, and other languages so that he could determine whether the Islamic Koran, the Hindu scriptures, and other writings identified someone who was born in Bethlehem of a virgin, a descendent of King David, traced back to Abraham, taken to Egypt, called back to Galilee, preceded by a forerunner, rejected by God’s own people, betrayed for thirty pieces of silver, pierced without breaking a bone, buried with the rich, and resurrected.  Alas, he searched in vain.

Finally, with just weeks to go, in desperation Tsion studied the Greek language and then turned to the New Testament to see if the Christian scriptures had anything to say about the messianic passages.  To his amazement, he learned that the Gospels told the story of someone associated with Bethlehem and Galilee, David and Abraham, betrayal and resurrection.  At this point he consulted a mathematician, who calculated the odds that just twenty of the 109 prophecies being fulfilled in one person at one in 4,125,000,000,000.  At this point Tsion put all the pieces together and realized that the Christians were right all along and Jesus Christ was the Messiah.  Unfortunately it was too late, as the Rapture had already the RTCs.

Isn’t it obvious? The aliens that abducted them installed a transceiver so they could assume manual control whenever they want, and that’s the one that picked up the TV signal.

Great, now I will not be able to read the portions of The Indwelling without hearing “ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL” in my head.  :p

Oh, hook ‘em horns!

Reminds me of one of my favorite movie scenes of all time. Imagine all of Nicolae’s lines delivered by the late, great Peter Cook. Now that would be entertaining.

Lucifer’s explaination of life with God there reminds me uncomfortably of The Demon Sultan Azathoth (continuing with the Lovecraft motif.)  It was the horrific concept that the universe was ruled over by a god who was both unaware and idiotic, interested only in being entertained by his courtiers, and behaving like a petulant child who is given all power over the universe.

It might prove that Eli had power on loan from God, but it wouldn’t prove that he had the only power that matters to L&J: that of being a Very Important Person.

Ravanan: thanks, that’s interesting. I’d never really thought about it before, beyond a vague  “that’s unusual usage” twitch when I heard it. But I rather like the ambiguity of the  “belief of translation: the important stuff usually is capable of more than one interpretation.

Vermic:

So I think an alternate explanation for L&J not writing much
original dialogue for Jesus is that they don’t know Jesus very well.  I
don’t even mean that in a  theological sense, necessarily — I mean they
don’t even know their Jesus very well; their TurboJesus, who is to some degree a being of their own creation.

But they’d never admit that TurboJesus is any kind of “character.” He’s Jesus, man! And they don’t seem to have much respect for the creative process anyway.

I once raised this point with a Christian theologian, who replied that
the Prince of Darkness is so vain that he undoubtably believes that he
can change the ending

He’s so vain, he prob’ly thinks this book is about him!

I’d encountered the “in”/”on” distinction before in a commentary on John’s Gospel by Abp. William Temple, and wasn’t aware that it was a fundie thing.  At the very least, Temple was a much smarter and wiser theologian than LaHaye could ever hope to be.

Several million points for that particular Python ref. Made my day!!

But wait, there’s more! I’ve gotta get used to this paging system…

Hummingwolf:

there doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of difference between the meanings.

Well, according to the author of the page:

Is there really a
difference between believing in the Lord Jesus and believing on the Lord
Jesus? I contend that there is a huge difference and that ignorance
could cost a  person their soul.

That’s pretty high stakes for a point of grammar, if you ask me.

Dash:

Personally, I think what the Tribbles are doing is believing at Jesus, sort of like talking at someone. Jesus seems to be rather good at dodging their belief-missiles, though.

Hee.

That is, one is forced to admit the extreme justice of your remarks.

I did find, in looking through the relevant verses in my Greek New
Testament, that KJV’s “believe in” versus “believe on” don’t pattern
with the two Greek prepositions.

Well, that settles that, doesn’t it? A distinction without a difference.

I had to insist on NOT having a Scofield Bible. I am in retrospect enormously proud of my 8-year-old self.

You knew the difference, at eight? I’m impressed! Was it natural brilliance or a really excellent religious education program?

Wyh did Tsion’s wife not get invited?
She is a girl and in this universe girls don’t get to do much.

Lucifer’s explaination of life with God there reminds me uncomfortably of The Demon Sultan Azathoth

I think it’s safe to say that any time Lucifer is describing God in between acts of pointless, petty cruelty, you want to take it with a grain of salt.

Oh, hook ‘em horns!

Them’s the ones.

Great, now I will not be able to read the portions of The Indwelling without hearing “ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL” in my head.  :p

You’re welcome.

Hey Spalanzani, now that we’re down to the last 50 pages before Bruce croaks, can we get an updated Date of Death to put in our calendars? (If that was you who did the calculations)

You knew the difference, at eight? I’m impressed! Was it natural
brilliance or a really excellent religious education program?

Neither, I fear. My recollection is that I was out-literaling the literalists. We were told that we believed ONLY in the Bible (“sola scriptura” is how they didn’t phrase it, Latin being all Catholic ‘n stuff), presumably to contrast us with those who had prayer books and church traditions and the like. So I insisted on ONLY the Bible being in my Bible. It’s the same charming and delightful attitude we have been observing in LaHaye & Jenkins: literaler than thou, with a “neener neener neener” thrown in.

“Finally, with just weeks to go, in desperation Tsion studied the Greek language and then turned to the New Testament to see if the Christian scriptures could assist him in his quest.”

He picked up Koine Greek that quickly?  Who is this guy, Flashman in a yarmulke?

If I could find the secret of learning languages that easily and quickly, I’d have a money-spinner that would keep me for the rest of my life.  And I’d use it myself…there’s dozens of languages I’d love to learn.

You know, thinking again about the similarities to Lovecraft, some of the facts of the story started piling up in my head and slotting into place, and the results were… distrubing. 

The Tribulation Force is a group of mortals who meet in secret to conduct forbidden rituals to contact powers that lie beyond time and space, eventually summon beings which cause insanity and death in those who oppose them and rend the Earth asunder, and are actively making preperations for the day when the can witness the glorious end of the world in an orgy of madness and destruction when the signs are right and their malevolent deity returns. 

There can be only one explaination:  The Tribulation Force are a group of evil cultists.

That makes way more sense than them being Jesus-oriented. I guess that
makes Nicky Nyarly, seriously pissed off that Yog-Sothoth wants to break
his favorite toys.

Complete tangent warning;

In college I took a Religious Studies class that focused on religiously-themed apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic science fiction (Octavia E. Butler’s Parable duology, Philip K. Dick’s Valis trilogy, etc.).

The work that got the most discussion from the class was Blameless in Abaddon, the second book in James Morrow’s Godhead trilogy. The series starts with God’s massive corpse showing up and things move from there, and the second book deals with its protagonist attempting to try the deceased God at the Hague for crimes against humanity.

All ten of us hated the ending, for differing reasons. The discussion interested our professor so much that he changed assignments to a creative writing exercise to write a new ending, any ending, that we felt was more faithful to the narrative the books had developed.

Mine started off just after the Big Reveal, with the Mr. Exposition character then revealing himself to be an avatar of Nyarlathotep, and that all of the supernatural events leading up to this were his actions. The stars are right, and the Great Old Ones will shortly rise. About to have his favorite toys broken (to borrow your metaphor), Nyarlothotep decided he might as well go all-out in playing with humanity.

B) It could mean “Jesus’ faith”; as in, you are saved if you share the faith that Jesus had. Due to the particular meaning of faith in this context, this would roughly mean that only those who, if push came to shove, would go up on a cross like Jesus for the sake of mankind would be saved.

Man, I hope it’s not B.

There can be only one explaination:  The Tribulation Force are a group of evil cultists.

Would that be a great idea for a novel that turns LB inside out, or is that too much like Ruby Ridge?

CC wrote:

There is no end, no bottom, no limit, to the amazing awfulness of these
books.  They go beyond bad.  They rise above awful.  They reach levels
of insane nonsense that defy creedence, defy reason.  They challenge you
to beleive they really exist.

This should really be a back-cover blurb on the LB books.  I especially love that last line.

Good points.  I guess for true believers a God lacking credible threats isn’t really a problem.  The Christians I know seem to take comfort in their unstoppable God, and that’s part of the point of their faith.  He’s an immovable rock to cling to in a universe of chaos and decay.  He has promised them salvation in return for obedience, and there is little else to think about.

I am, and have always been, outside of Christendom.  With an outsider’s eyes, I have a hard time caring about the God of the New and Old Testament.  He really is Superman in a world of Lex Luthers but no kryptonite.  It reminds me of the original live action Superman television series.  Each episode introduces a plot with a problem and a villain (or villains).  Lois Lane and Clark go to investigate, and find themselves in “trouble” with the villain.  Then Superman shows up.  Bullets and knives bounce off him, the villain is immediately defeated, and any tension is thwarted.  God, er… Superman wins again!  Don’t forget to buy a Superman lunchbox kids!

Life is struggle.  Even for those of us with the easiest of lives, it is still defined by our struggle to find happiness, find food, hold down a job, and dealing with ageing and inevitable death.  The closest the God of the bible gets to this is when He comes to Earth as Jesus.  However, even then the fix is in.  You know Satan’s efforts to tempt Him with Earthly stuff is going to be a huge failure.  God created everything!  How can you tempt Him with His own stuff?  That’s like tempting me with my own fingernail clippings.  If I were to direct a movie involving the temptation, I would have the actor playing Satan portray him has sad, apathetic, and broken.  He’s just going through the motions because God wants him to.  The devil knows he has nothing to bargain with, nothing to fight with, and that God is going to toss him into a lake of fire at some point.  He’s the most meaningless arch-nemesis ever.

Good points.  I guess for true believers a God lacking credible threats isn’t really a problem.  The Christians I know seem to take comfort in their unstoppable God, and that’s part of the point of their faith.  He’s an immovable rock to cling to in a universe of chaos and decay.  He has promised them salvation in return for obedience, and there is little else to think about.

I am, and have always been, outside of Christendom.  With an outsider’s eyes, I have a hard time caring about the God of the New and Old Testament.  He really is Superman in a world of Lex Luthers but no kryptonite.  It reminds me of the original live action Superman television series.  Each episode introduces a plot with a problem and a villain (or villains).  Lois Lane and Clark go to investigate, and find themselves in “trouble” with the villain.  Then Superman shows up.  Bullets and knives bounce off him, the villain is immediately defeated, and any tension is thwarted.  God, er… Superman wins again!  Don’t forget to buy a Superman lunchbox kids!

Life is struggle.  Even for those of us with the easiest of lives, it is still defined by our struggle to find happiness, find food, hold down a job, and dealing with ageing and inevitable death.  The closest the God of the bible gets to this is when He comes to Earth as Jesus.  However, even then the fix is in.  You know Satan’s efforts to tempt Him with Earthly stuff is going to be a huge failure.  God created everything!  How can you tempt Him with His own stuff?  That’s like tempting me with my own fingernail clippings.  If I were to direct a movie involving the temptation, I would have the actor playing Satan portray him has sad, apathetic, and broken.  He’s just going through the motions because God wants him to.  The devil knows he has nothing to bargain with, nothing to fight with, and that God is going to toss him into a lake of fire at some point.  He’s the most meaningless arch-nemesis ever.

I have never heard of Ruby Ridge. 

I want to see the scene where the two prophets from 1000 BCE are on the
phone with the Teddy Stadium general manager, booking their event.

——————

Ring, ring!

“Good morning, Teddy Kolleck Stadium events division, how may I help you?”

“This is Elijah, the [Long introductory paragraph in early modern English]. I wish to use your exercise ground to hold a gathering.”

“Yes, Sir, what date were you considering?”

“The first day of next week”

“Well I’m sorry, Sir, but that’s extremely short notice. We’re pretty much booked out for the next six months. I mean, I’ll check, but… No, Sir, this Sunday is the finals of the All Israel Schools Junior Athle… oh shit…”

[What seems like eighteen months later]

“Yes Sir, I guess we could let you have the Stadium this Sunday. Can I have a card number, please.”

“I am sorry. I do not understand.”

“A credit card, Sir.”

“My credit is good. I always pay my debts. You may ask the elders of my people.”

“Err, yes, fine, that’s great. But we need a card number for this booking, Sir. Do you have a credit card?”

“I do not understand.”

“Small rectangular piece of plastic? Numbers on it? Hologram?”

“Small, rectangular? Plastic? Ah, like a scribe’s tablet before it is baked? To write my oaths of payment?”

“Sir, I’m sorry, but I’m finding this transaction a little difficult. How are you proposing to pay for the use of our Stadium?”

“I will give you gold.”

“DUDE< DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW FRACKING ILLEGAL THAT WOULD BE!!!"

SLAM

I remember when I first read the passage with Moishe calling Tsion on the phone and doing a double take… “what this mysterious character raining down fire is using the PHONE?”  I pictured him standing in a phone booth… putting in quarters.  No, no I must be misreading this, it’s like the author is parodying himself.

Even better… a few years later he could’ve been using one of those flip phones, Matrix style.  “God?  I need knowledge on how to acquire a stadium.”   BZZZZZT.  “Let’s go.” 

“There is no end, no bottom, no limit, to the amazing awfulness of these books.  They go beyond bad.  They rise above awful.  They reach levels of insane nonsense that defy creedence, defy reason.  They challenge you to beleive they really exist.”

This should really be a back-cover blurb on the LB books.  I especially love that last line.

THE CRITICS RAVE FOR LEFT BEHIND:

“There is no end, no bottom, no limit, to the amazing…of these books … They rise above … They challenge you!”  (Source: The Internet)

I remember when I first read the passage with Moishe calling Tsion on the phone and doing a double take… “what this mysterious character raining down fire is using the PHONE?” I pictured him standing in a phone booth… putting in quarters. No, no I must be misreading this, it’s like the author is parodying himself.

We have already established that the authors seem to regard telephones with a certain reverence, more so than they show for the principals of their faith.  You know, they could have done a bit more with the phones if they played their cards right.  Maybe used them as a recurring motif, a piece of symbolism about the connections people have to one another in the most dire of times… but I think that is way above their writing ability.

Chris, that qoute from Mencken (one of my all time favorite commentaries on American politics) is exactly what I was thinking of when I typed my comment.  Good call.

[What seems like eighteen months later]You owe me a new monitor.

 I have never heard of Ruby Ridge.  

That may be for the best. It’s one of those incidents where it’s difficult to get objective information because everyone who wrote about it had an ax to grind and all of the players directly involved f’ed up royally in more or less heinous ways. It happen almost 20 years ago and talking about it still tends to stir up a huge shitstorm. 

This hit me while I was out walking today: The virgin birth is in fact evidence of the existence of lizard people. It is well-known that certain species of lizards are able to reproduce by parthenogenesis with no males. Therefore, if Mary was a lizard woman, she may have been able to bear a child without ever having sex with a man.

I’m not sure if any fish species can do something similar, but if they can, I think you know how that fits into the Jesus-in-Lovecraft story.

Alternate ending

————-

“Yes Sir, I guess we could let you have the Stadium this Sunday. Can I have a card number, please.”

“No card or number will be necessary. You will let me hold my gathering or you will burn with holy fire.”

“Oh brother, I don’t nee-”

[Burning with holy fire]

“Uh, I’m afraid my colleague who was just speaking with you isn’t faring so well in the heat. How can I help you?”

[After quite a while, because these people wouldn't know the wrath of God if it slapped down Russia's arsenal and stole all their children.]

“Yeah, sure, whatever. I just mop the floors. This isn’t my problem.”

It’s all worse than that. Even without getting into God’s omnipotence and being destined to win, Nicolae isn’t even allowed to win ever, all he ever gets is temporarly victories that maybe last a few hours to a few days before God shows up and undoes it with a major setback. In one scene, Nicolae kills the two preachers, and then they rise from the dead after 3 days and 7,000 of the people who celebrated their deaths die in an earthquake. Nicolae later takes the temple and descreates it only to have the moment ruined because our heroes can take control of the broadcasting of the event, and then all of his troops become incapacitated with pain due to some boils and then Nicolae has to leave Jersulem. When Nicolae makes a speech after rising from the dead and he has an air show made in his honor, God causes the planes to crash, killing dozens of people. Nicolae has his people convert others to his worship, and then God just kills those people who do convert to Nicolae. Nicolae plans numerous assaults on Petra, and they all fail due to divine forcefields. Nicolae tries stabbing a true believer and the sword just goes through him! It all ends with Nicolae finally standing up to Jesus and being utterly fearless and confident, and you may think that he’s going to say or do something that will finally make up for the crap he’s had to endure up until this point…only for Jesus to perform an exorcism, and Satan leaves Nicolae’s body, which now withers to an invalid state, and so Jesus then hurls the now utterly helpless, invalid Nicole into the flames of Hell. Really big victory! You managed to defeat a guy with no muscle mass!

All these events only serve to show how impotent the master villain and how petty and bullying God is by pissing on everything Nicolae tries. It’s a curbstomp battle of Nicolae getting his ass kicked over 12 books.

 This needs to go up at the Right Behind site

In other words, Nicolae is the Washington Generals.

Jesus sat again and Nicolae Carpathia, still facing the assembled crowd, shrugged and thrust his hands deep into his pockets. His eyebrows were raised, a smirk planted, and Mac had to wonder how this would play out. Even Carpathia was to bow and confess that Jesus was Lord, but he exuded no fear and certainly no humility.
Michael advanced to one side of him, Gabriel the other. Michael grabbed an elbow and spun him around as Gabriel shouted, “Kneel before Zod your Lord!”
Carpathia wrenched away from Michael and again stood arms akimbo. Jesus said, “Lucifer, leave this man!”
And with that, Carpathia seemed to shrink… His leathers were now too roomy for him and hung on him like limp robes. His hands and fingers became bony. His neck seemed to swim inside a collar now much too large.  Nicolae’s hair was sparce and nearly colorless, and dark veins appeared on his exposed skin. He was pale and pasty, as if his skin could be easily rubbed away. Again, Captain Obvious Mac had the feeling that this was what the body of Carpathia would have looked like had it been mouldering in the grave since his assassination three and a half years ago.
…
Mac had to contrast the righteousness of Christ with his own humanity. Had he been in Jesus’ place now, he would have been unable to resist rejoicing in the triumph.
…
Finally, in a humble, weak voice, Nicolae croaked, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who died for the sins of the world and rose again the third day as the Scriptures predicted.”
…
“You and your False Prophet, with whom you shed the blood of the innocents … shall be cast alive into the lake of fire.”
…
Carpathia did not struggle. He merely covered his face like a baby and fought to escape, but with one mighty arm Michael pushed him into the [lake of fire burning with brimstone]… The hole closed as quickly as it had opened and the Beast [Nicky] and the False Prophet  [Leon Fortunato] were no more.

From Book #12: Glorious Appearing

>Carpathia did not struggle. He merely covered his face like a baby and fought to escape

…wow. The level of bad writing just sinks throughout the series. The elaboration of how Nicky Rockytops “did not struggle” is that he “fought to escape?” Seriously?

I can’t even process these glimpses of Left Behind That Is to Come.  The awfulness is just staggering.  The Archangel Michael serving as Jesus’ right-hand goon?  God sadistically toying with Nicolae like Steven Seagal toying with anyone who is not Steven Seagal?  Even more divine forcefields?  Ugh, I’d much rather read christopher_young’s version of events than L&J’s.

“I will give you gold.”

Hmm, there was some molten gold jewelry left after they torched Ayee.  So maybe the prophets get money from looting their kills, like MMORPG’ers and other amoral sociopaths have done since the beginning of history.  Then they head to their local former Blockbuster Video, which is now a Cash-4-Gold outlet, and exchange their haul for regular currency which they use to rent pubic venues.  It’s so obvious when you think about it!

Hmm, there was some molten gold jewelry left after they torched Ayee. So maybe the prophets get money from looting their kills, like MMORPG’ers and other amoral sociopaths have done since the beginning of history. Then they head to their local former Blockbuster Video, which is now a Cash-4-Gold outlet, and exchange their haul for regular currency which they use to rent public venues. It’s so obvious when you think about it!

I bet they take umbridge when one of their assailants drops nothing but vendor trash. 

Finally, in a humble, weak voice, Nicolae croaked, “You are the Christ,
the Son of the Living God, who died for the sins of the world and rose
again the third day as the Scriptures predicted.”

I’m betting Nicky was being controlled by Robojesus at this point, because I cannot imagine anyone, knowing they’re about to be cast into eternal conscious torment anyway, not mustering some last defiance against Zod the baby-killer.

Why does that scene from Glorious Appearing remind me of the two jocks from Heathers humiliating the nerds?

I loved your Zod reference. I’m reminded of the Elseworlds comic Speeding Bullets where Kal-El is raised by the Waynes and becomes a psychopathic version of Batman. That world’s Lois Lane describes Batman as a child’s revenge fantasy, terrorizing criminals as proxies for the man who killed his parents. This scene here isn’t about evil being vanquished, it’s about power and submission, leading me to speculate that it’s a proxy revenge by the authors. The fact that Ellanjay’s Jesus acts like a brutal dictator shows what their mentality is like.

Tsion Ben-Judah just became Buck Williams’ favorite person in the whole
world. Share your telephone with Buck and you’ve got a friend for life.

That was the line that made me LOL.  Nice!

The fact that Ellanjay’s Jesus acts like a brutal dictator shows what their mentality is like.
 
The Jesus of Left Behind may act like a brutal dictator, but he is <very sad that he has been forced to act like a brutal dictator.
 

<Michael led the five [Leon, Nicky, and three of his demonic servants] in front of Jesus, and Mac was struck by His countenance. He detected righteous anger, of course, but also what appeared to be disappointment, even sadness. There was no gloating.
…
"We repent! We will turn! We will turn! We worship You, O Jesus, Son of God. You are Lord!"
"But for you it is too late," Jesus said, and Mac was hit by the sorrow in His tone… "Like My Father, with whom I am one, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that is justice, and that is your sentence."
…
Jesus shook His head and Mac saw a great sadness in His face.  "You [Leon] are responsible for the fate of billions…"
…
The Lord nodded sadly, and without hesitation, Michael briskly walked the two to the edge of the hole.
…
With anger and yet sadness, He said [to the millions of condemned souls desperately pleading for mercy], “Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked andyou did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”

“Like My Father, with whom I am one, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that is justice, and that is your sentence.”

I notice he doesn’t say anything about the torture that will be continuing for a longer time than human minds can really process. Oh, and the “he only smites them because he cares” thing is still sickening.

E: Hey Moishe, wanna do a 2-man raid against the Anti-Christ’s 4th Prince?

M: Isn’t that a 100-man raid?

E: Eh, we have GM access privileges and hacked gear. We can take it.

*after quickly finishing the raid*

E: Dammit, he didn’t drop the mount.

M: What mount?

E: Don’t you remember? God said for these 7 years only, there was an exclusive 10-headed beast mount that’s a rare drop of all the Anti-Christ’s Princes.

M: Sweet. Why don’t we go back in then?

…

E: COME ON, RESPAWN ALREADY!

Man, God’s not omnipotent.  God’s not even “selfpotent.”

Man, God’s not omnipotent.  God’s not even “selfpotent.”

What’s funny is that the same Christian theologians who insist that God can’t just forgive someone (even if He wants to) without the shedding of innocent blood … then turn around and, without blinking, tell me that Jews ”limit” God’s omnipotence when we reject the idea that He can become a human being.

“Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”

And yet the Tribulation Force are some of the most selfish characters in this series.  There is a dissonance here I find difficult to reconcile.

Seems pretty straightforward. Insofar as this series reveals their thoughts at all, it says they have no concept of an accurate belief about reality. ‘Correct belief,’ to them, means an approved set of words to parrot back. Intellectualism seems to them like a poor copy of this, so it must entail reading an atlas in nine languages. They literally have no concept of facts fitting together.

If you’re thinking of the part where Elijah calls down fire from heaven to consume his sacrifice, I should mention that the sweet little old Orthodox rabbi who taught me that story pointed out that he thinks there’s something suspicious going on with the sloshing of ‘water’ over the offering–specifically, something odd going on in a region that is not without crude oil

Frankly, a lot of the Hebrew Bible seems to me like a celebration of clever deception. King David acts like Marlon Brando’s Godfather. Solomon’s most famous act involved tricking two mothers. Old man Israel got his brother to sell his birthright, then tricked Isaac into confirming it. Abraham lies just to keep in practice. And then we have Joseph the slaver, who (according to my translator) jokes about his fellow prisoner’s beheading. “Your head will be lifted up…from you!” Here’s some hope for you – nope, too slow!

Again, a lot of this probably comes from stitching together stories with different purposes and morals. (Though the Redactor seems like a person who’d appreciate a good deception, if he really included all the best-loved parts of the J Text while concealing its view of the God of Israel.) The J Text tells a better story, about a clever young boy-deity who creates some brilliant work, but makes a lot of mistakes and can’t protect his creations from older gods (or try to do so) until he matures somewhat.

As someone who was never part of the Christian community, this was always something that bothered me about the Abrahamic narrative.  There is never really anything at stake for God.  The devil already lost one battle against God, and it sounds like it wasn’t even close.

chris the cynic said: I think that the best way to explain the situation of Satan in a story such as this, barring an second prophecy with a different ending (or, you know, attempts to not fulfill the prophecies), is to assume that the situation represents a Nash equilibrium.  Or something similar to a Nash equilibrium.

Ten points to Ravenclaw!

I have actually seen the argument made that “the least of these” refers to Christians, and that “all the nations” means everybody else. Thus, the parable does not say that everyone will be judged on their behavior towards everyone else, but that non-Christians will be judged on their behavior toward Christians.

If ever I have seen an example of someone being an anti-Christ, it was there.

And Jeph Loeb has said that Superman’s real weakness is his heart, he cares too much.

Theoretically, Christianity is also supposed to involve a prominent figure who is not only extremely powerful, but extremely compassionate and ready to face risks, danger and suffering for people in need (including people who many would consider unworthy and not fit company for decent people).   A good writer should be able to do something with that.  A halfway-competent hack would make it a noticeable trait.  Ellenjay can’t seem to see how that would mean anything more than “He makes a sadface while forcing people into eternal torture!  That’s compassionate!”

I’ve heard that argument, and it tends to surprise me with the nakedness of it.  It’s effectively saying “I don’t think compassion is an important moral principle in general – what matters is that everyone not on Team Christianity will be punished for not being nice enough to the people on Team Christianity.  So therefore it’s not important if I screw you over, but you’d better not cross me or I’ll have my God stomp you.”  There’s no actual morality in there at all.

 Remember, RTCs don’t believe in an actual morality. Morality is what TurboJesus says is moral. To suggest that morality exists independently of TurboJesus is, to an RTC, heresy.

Yeah, it’s confusing when people simultaneously claim moral superiority and openly display their complete lack of morals.

So basically, the Phoenix Clan from Legend of the Five Rings.

Yeah, it’s confusing when people simultaneously claim moral superiority and openly display their complete lack of morals.

Maybe that is why people like Newt Gingrich can find political purchase there.  We often see a lot of pundits on the political right condemn a public figure who does not meet their standard of morality, while simultaneously forgiving the transgressions of those “in the camp.”  Their sense of morality is very sect-centric. 

As discusting and self-centered as that interpetation is, I have to wonder even from an RTC perspective: Aren’t all non-RTCs damned to torment already just for not being RTCs? What is this extra judgment supposed to do? Oh, you talked back to the RTC that tried to hand you a tract? Well I sentence you to Hell! No wait, I already did that. Ehm, I increase your sentence duration. Oh wait, it was already eternal. Uhm… I guess we can try to make the lake of fire a bit hotter in your area…