TF: A case of do or die

By Fred Clark, September 26, 2011 5:48 pm

Tribulation Force, pp. 413-417

We come today to the first kiss between Buck Williams and Chloe Steele.

Jerry Jenkins is not a writer I trust to handle such a scene, and the involvement of Buck Williams as one of the parties to this kiss introduces a significant “ick factor,” so I’ve been anticipating this passage with something like the disgust expressed by a young Fred Savage in The Princess Bride — “Do we have to read the kissing parts?”

I do, however, feel some compassion for Jenkins here. It can’t have been easy writing such a scene for Tyndale House and for an audience that includes a significant number of fundamentalist readers who regard premarital kissing as scandalously sinful behavior.

The audience for “Bible prophecy” stories like the Left Behind series includes a good many Gothardites and the sorts of people who send their children to places like Bob Jones University or Pensacola Bible College. I haven’t the time or bandwidth to describe for you here the full strangeness of Bill Gothard’s teaching on “courtship” and “purity” or to fully contextualize the cult-like popularity that teaching has throughout many of the same sorts of churches in which Tim LaHaye’s “prophecy” ideas are taught. (If you’re in the mood for a trip through the looking glass, here’s BillGothard.com* and here’s the website for his Institute in Basic Life Principles.)

We’ve previously discussed some of the similarities and affinities between romance Left-Behind style and the sorts of things taught by Gothard — such as the stilted, formal approach of “courtship,” or the creepy notion of fathers as surrogates for future husbands (and husbands as surrogates for their wives’ fathers). But here, on the matter of premarital kissing, we see a clear break from the Gothard/Bob Jones approach, which emphatically teaches that a couple’s first kiss ought to come at the prompting of their pastor, following their exchange of wedding vows. “You may now kiss the bride,” the preacher says, but you couldn’t do so before that.

That idea of No Kissing Before Marriage wouldn’t be something that a majority of Left Behind’s potential readers would believe in, but a significant minority of them — including many loyal members of Beverly LaHaye’s Concerned Women for America — were likely shocked and scandalized by the racy scene we’re about to read.

To his credit, Jerry Jenkins seems to have thought that having Buck and Chloe abide by the strict standards of the Gothardites would have seemed unnatural and unrealistic, so he chose to risk offending some readers by including this scene of his young lovers’ first kiss. That doesn’t mean Jenkins actually achieves a realistic or natural-seeming romantic scene, but I’m willing to give him partial credit for the attempt.

As usual, Jenkins can’t resist building things up too much. A first kiss can and ought to be memorable, but to announce beforehand “This is going to be memorable” tends to be true, but for all the wrong reasons.

We’re still in flashback mode at this point in Tribulation Force. We’re catching up with the romantic developments that occurred during the 18 months the authors skipped past. Jenkins here is in a bit of a rush to get readers up to speed on what transpired in that interim so that, by the end of this chapter, he can return us to the 18-months-later present and have everyone get engaged in time for Bruce to perform the double wedding before he gets killed off. This all needs to happen in less than 40 pages, so Jenkins speeds up the process by having the couples double-date and by having each couple spend much of their time alone discussing the other couple.

Buck is pleased to see Rayford dating Amanda White:

“He’s not going to want to be alone if we decide to get more serious.”

“Seems to me we’ve already decided.” Chloe slipped her hand into Buck’s.

Hand-holding remains a Big Deal in these pages, a romantic milestone fraught with significance and thus, like most small gestures in a subculture obsessed with “purity” and abstinence, oddly eroticized. Yet Chloe’s aggressive initiation of brazen hand-holding still doesn’t ease Buck’s raging insecurity.

“I just don’t know what to do about timing and geography, with everything breaking the way it has.”

Buck was hoping for some hint from Chloe that she would be willing to follow him anywhere, that she was either ready for marriage or that she needed more time. Time was getting away from them, but still Buck hesitated.

Buck’s hesitation might be partly due to his realizing that every word and gesture he exchanges with Chloe will soon thereafter be related, in detail, to her father. On the very next page:

“I’m ready when he is,” Chloe told Rayford. “But I’m not going to say a word.”

“Why not?” Rayford said. “Men need a few signals.”

“He’s getting all the signals he needs.”

“So you’ve held his hand by now?”

“Dad!”

“Bet you’ve even kissed him.”

“No comment.”

“That’s a yes if I ever heard one.”

“Like I said, he’s getting all the signals he needs.”

So third base, then, I guess. Saucy hussy.

In fact, Buck would never forget the first time he had kissed Chloe.

In fact, that “in fact” is tone-deaf and woefully misplaced.

In fact, Buck would never forget the first time he had kissed Chloe. It had been the night he left for New York by car, about a year before. Carpathia had bought up the Weekly as well as any of the competition worth working for, and Buck seemed to have less choice than ever over his own career. He could try bootlegging copy over the Internet, but he still needed to make a living.

No, he doesn’t. One only needs to make a living if one plans or expects to be living, and Buck knows he can’t expect that. His decision to stick with his job because “he still needed to make a living” is even more foolish than Rayford’s denial-driven decision to put his furniture into storage.

The way Buck still thinks of his finances, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he’s still making the maximum contribution to his 401(k) plan. That may be a responsible thing for a 32-year-old reporter to do here in the real world, but Buck doesn’t live here in the real world — he lives in the fictional world of Tim LaHaye’s Great Tribulation. For Buck, the countdown to The End has begun. The world is going to end in 66 months. Sometime before that, the global economy will collapse and be replaced with the economy of the Mark of the Beast. And the odds are pretty high that Buck will be killed by one of the seals, trumpets or vials of divine wrath long before then.

When your maximum possible life expectancy is 5½ years, then it’s time to cash out your retirement plan. Yes, you may take a hit on the taxes, but that’s probably the least of your worries. If Buck cashed out all his savings, I’m guessing he’d have more than enough money to last him until the end of the world, or to the end of his life, or to the end of the value of cash, whichever comes first. In fact, he no longer needs “to make a living.”

It’s not just Buck and Rayford who are confused on this point. Even Bruce — whose office study is papered in charts and graphs illustrating precisely how little time remains for anyone — seems to think that earning an income is still a necessity and priority for his followers.

Bruce, who was at the church less and less all the time due to his ministry all over the world, had encouraged him to stay with Global Weekly, even after the name was changed to Global Community Weekly. “I wish we could change that last word one more time,” Buck said. “To Weakly.”

The word-play continues in the next paragraph, kind of:

Buck had resigned himself to doing the best he could for the kingdom of God, just as Chloe’s father had done.

That’s a biblical phrase — “the kingdom of God.” I know what it means when it’s used in the Gospels and I know what it means when it’s used by most Christians. I also know what it means when it’s used, very differently, by premillennial dispensationalist prophecy enthusiasts like LaHaye. But that latter PMD sense makes no sense here. For LaHaye, and thus for Buck and Bruce and the rest of the Tribulation Force, “the kingdom of God” refers to a future kingdom — a literal kingdom to be established by Jesus in a coming “dispensation” after his second Second Coming.

That’s not what Buck seems to mean here. Instead he seems to be talking about the kingdom of God the way that most non-PMD Christians do (although most of us try to be a bit more positive than saying we’re “resigned to” the kingdom). He seems to be speaking of the kingdom of God as something already present in this world, the reign of peace and justice that is both now and not-yet. Buck wouldn’t talk like that. He wouldn’t use that phrase that way. And anyway, as far as he and the rest of the Trib Force are concerned, there’s nothing he or Rayford can or should do for the kingdom of God other than to avoid sin while waiting for its literal arrival in about 5½ years.

He still hid his identity as a believer. Whatever freedom and perceived objectivity he had would soon be gone if that truth was known to Carpathia.

I wish that were intended as a sly piece of satire, but I think it’s merely an honest description of Jenkins’ idea of the role of the journalist — maintaining one’s “perceived objectivity.” Jenkins and Buck seem to believe about objectivity what George Burns believed about sincerity — “If you can fake that, you’ve got it made.”

I also can’t help but wonder if anyone else would notice if Buck were to stop hiding “his identity as a believer.” That would make his life and his actions different how, exactly?

That last night in Chicago, he and Chloe were in the apartment packing the last of his personal things. His plan was to leave by 9 o’clock that night and drive all the way to New York City in one marathon stretch.

I suppose we should be grateful, considering all we’ve read in the previous 800+ pages about cab-rides and airports, that we’re not given a more detailed description of Buck’s planned route. But finally we get to “the kissing parts.”

As they worked, they talked about how much they would hate being apart, how much they would miss each other, how often they would phone and email each other.

“I wish you could come with me,” Buck said at one point.

“Yeah, that would be appropriate,” she said.

“Someday,” he said.

“Someday what?”

But he would not bite.

There’s an undercurrent here of something rather unhealthy — a hint of the way that a fear of rejection often turns into a battle for control, twisting every expression of affection into a challenge or accusation. That battle plays out as a subtext in this romantic scene.

He carried a box to the car and came back in, passing her as she taped another. Tears ran down her face.

Yes, score! See, that’s just what Buck was hoping for. If you can make her cry, that proves she must really love you.

“What’s this?” he said, stopping to wipe her face with his fingers. “Don’t get me started now.”

“You’ll never miss me as much as I’ll miss you,” she said, trying to continue to work with him hovering, a hand on her face.

“Stop it,” he whispered. “Come here.”

She set down the tape and stood to face him. He embraced her and pulled her close. Her hands were at her sides, and her cheek was on his chest. They had held each other before, and they had walked hand in hand, sometimes arm in arm. They had expressed their deep feelings for each other without mentioning love. And they had agreed not to cry and not to say anything rash in the moment of parting.

Just when the scene starts to get kind of sweet you’re suddenly jolted out of it by puzzling thoughts of what sort of rash things they might have been tempted to say to one another. (I’m thinking of Liza Minelli and Michael York in Cabaret: “Screw Maximilian!”)

“You can’t say you care for me as much as I care for you,” one of them tells the other one. I think it was Chloe saying it to Buck, but it doesn’t really matter which.

Buck had already planned his first kiss. He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then. It was going to be meaningful and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

I believe Erica Jong referred to this as the “zipless kiss.”

He stepped back and took her face in his hands. She resisted at first and tried to hide her face in his chest again, but he insisted she look at him. “I don’t ever want to hear you say that again,” he said.

“But, Buck, it’s true –”

He lowered his head until he eyes were inches from hers. “Did you hear me?” he said. “Don’t say it again. Don’t imply it, don’t even think it. There’s no possible way you could care for me more than I care for you. You are my whole life. I love you, Chloe. Don’t you know that?”

Did I mention something about a creepy subtext of a battle for control?

He felt her nearly recoil at that first declaration of his love. Her tears rolled over his hands, and she began to say, “How would I –?” But he lowered his mouth to hers, cutting off her words. And it was no quick touch of the lips. She raised her hands between his arms, wrapped them around his neck, and held him tight as they kissed.

She pulled away briefly and whispered, “Did you only say that because you’re leaving and –” But he covered her mouth again with his.

As far as “kissing parts” go, that wasn’t nearly as squirmingly awkward as I expected it to be. It was unpleasant, but browse through the nominees of The Guardian’s annual “Bad Sex award,” and you’ll appreciate that the bar for excruciating literary romance is set pretty high. (Or low — you know what I mean.) And Jenkins handles the physical logistics of the scene in a plausible enough manner. If you set aside the content of the dialogue and you try to imagine this as a scene from Growing Pains instead of from Tribulation Force — that’s not Buck Williams, it’s Mike Seaver — then the actual kissing scene almost seems sweet.

But it’s hard to set aside that dialogue, and with those needy, grasping words ringing in your ears, it’s hard to find much that’s sweet in this scene.

“Don’t doubt my love for you ever again. Promise.”

“But, Buck –”

“Promise.”

“I promise. And I love you, too, Buck.”

Maybe it’s just me, but I tend to think that the big “I love you” scene shouldn’t read quite so much like a “Say ‘Uncle!’ Say it!” scene.

- – - – - – - – - – - -

* The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

categories Left Behind | tags

  • Rikalous

    Mr. Gothard, the champion of sexual purity. I’m not sure whether that’s the opposite of a Dickens name, or a played-straight Dickens name showing his hypocrisy. You know, if Dickens made penis jokes (wait a minute. Dick-ens?).

  • Rikalous

    Mr. Gothard, the champion of sexual purity. I’m not sure whether that’s the opposite of a Dickens name, or a played-straight Dickens name showing his hypocrisy. You know, if Dickens made penis jokes (wait a minute. Dick-ens?).

  • Kirala

    Yeah, this does not look Gothard-friendly at all. A friend of mine was raised under Bill Gothard’s teaching and contributes to a site trying to help people heal from the damage inflicted by those systems. One writer on the site has a pretty terrifying description of “A Different Kind of Sexual Abuse”.

    Compared to this stuff, Ray et al. look positively cuddly.

  • Kirala

    Yeah, this does not look Gothard-friendly at all. A friend of mine was raised under Bill Gothard’s teaching and contributes to a site trying to help people heal from the damage inflicted by those systems. One writer on the site has a pretty terrifying description of “A Different Kind of Sexual Abuse”.

    Compared to this stuff, Ray et al. look positively cuddly.

  • Anonymous

    Sheez, you think with all his recent Bible reading, Buck have some better lines. I mean, when Chloe ‘s crying, he could have leaned in close, stroked her cheeked, and said in a manner not unlike Billy Dee Williams’, “Don’t cry, baby. When you cry I can’t seen your eyes, which are like the fishpools in Heshbon.”

  • Anonymous

    Sheez, you think with all his recent Bible reading, Buck have some better lines. I mean, when Chloe ‘s crying, he could have leaned in close, stroked her cheeked, and said in a manner not unlike Billy Dee Williams’, “Don’t cry, baby. When you cry I can’t seen your eyes, which are like the fishpools in Heshbon.”

  • Anonymous

     He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then.

    God, I KNOW right?!  Women and their reactions to stuff, all emotion having and what not.  I mean, wouldn’t it be better if they were more like guys?  Like, totally not in a gay way either.

    Buck doesn’t want a girl friend, he wants a manrette.

  • Anonymous

     He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then.

    God, I KNOW right?!  Women and their reactions to stuff, all emotion having and what not.  I mean, wouldn’t it be better if they were more like guys?  Like, totally not in a gay way either.

    Buck doesn’t want a girl friend, he wants a manrette.

  • Lori

     The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.  

    I don’t know exactly how funny you find it, but unless your laughter hit the “crying and can’t breath” stage I feel confident that you don’t find it funnier than you should. I swear these people. So sex-obsessed and yet so dense. I can’t even. 

  • Lori

     The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.  

    I don’t know exactly how funny you find it, but unless your laughter hit the “crying and can’t breath” stage I feel confident that you don’t find it funnier than you should. I swear these people. So sex-obsessed and yet so dense. I can’t even. 

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Okay, how do you reconcile this:

    Buck had already planned his first kiss. He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then.

     … with this:  

    It was going to be meaningful and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    I suppose I can forgive some of his naïvety about this as being inexperience, but how the hell do kiss someone and then do without a follow-through?  Granted, there is something to be said for leaving a partner wanting just a little more, not as a head game but more as a delayed gratification thing to make the resolution the sweeter for the anticipation, but I doubt that is what Buck had in mind.  Build what?

  • Anonymous

    “Don’t doubt my love for you ever again. Promise.”“But, Buck –”“Promise.”“I promise. And I love you, too, Buck.”The dialogue is similar to the kissing scene in The Princess Bride…”I told you I would always come for you. Why didn’t you wait for me?”
    “Well, you were dead.”
    “Death cannot stop True Love. All it can do is delay it for a while.”
    “I will never doubt again.”
    “There will never be a need.”"Aw, no. No, please.”
    “What is it? What’s the matter?”
    “They’re kissing again. Do we have to hear the kissing part?”

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Okay, how do you reconcile this:

    Buck had already planned his first kiss. He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then.

     … with this:  

    It was going to be meaningful and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    I suppose I can forgive some of his naïvety about this as being inexperience, but how the hell do kiss someone and then do without a follow-through?  Granted, there is something to be said for leaving a partner wanting just a little more, not as a head game but more as a delayed gratification thing to make the resolution the sweeter for the anticipation, but I doubt that is what Buck had in mind.  Build what?

  • Anonymous

    “Don’t doubt my love for you ever again. Promise.”
    “But, Buck –”
    “Promise.”
    “I promise. And I love you, too, Buck.”

    Even the dialogue is similar to the kissing scene…

    “I told you I would always come for you. Why didn’t you wait for me?”
    “Well, you were dead.”
    “Death cannot stop True Love. All it can do is delay it for a while.”
    “I will never doubt again.”
    “There will never be a need.”

    “Aw, no. No, please.”
    “What is it? What’s the matter?”
    “They’re kissing again. Do we have to hear the kissing part?”

  • Anonymous

    Bleh. Bleh, bleh and double bleh! What a complete freaking tool as usual Bucky, bleh. Love and sex can be sacred too, I’ll always remember my first real kiss because of the numinous, stardust sprinkled over my skin feeling it gave me. 

    I’ll post some more coherent thoughts later, but as a nice palate cleanser here is one of my favorite love songs, set to a montage of some of my favorite couples (and kudos to the vid maker for skewing towards older couples too).  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW4A9S-UL-Q

  • Anonymous

    Bleh. Bleh, bleh and double bleh! What a complete freaking tool as usual Bucky, bleh. Love and sex can be sacred too, I’ll always remember my first real kiss because of the numinous, stardust sprinkled over my skin feeling it gave me. 

    I’ll post some more coherent thoughts later, but as a nice palate cleanser here is one of my favorite love songs, set to a montage of some of my favorite couples (and kudos to the vid maker for skewing towards older couples too).  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW4A9S-UL-Q

  • Lori

     The dialogue is similar to the kissing scene in The Princess Bride…  

    In The Princess Bride that bit is intentionally funny. Important difference, that. 

  • Lori

     The dialogue is similar to the kissing scene in The Princess Bride…  

    In The Princess Bride that bit is intentionally funny. Important difference, that. 

  • http://dumas1.livejournal.com/ Winter

    “Seals… of divine wrath”

    That phrase has me thinking of a plague of seals or some sort of pinniped . Perhaps leopard seals or elephant seals or even sea lions or walruses. Those giant tusks are just a bit intimidating. Applying “literal” images to seal names might make something Revelation-worthy.

    Or flying killer whales. Because as soon as those things make it out of the water, we’re never getting the beaches back.

  • http://dumas1.livejournal.com/ Winter

    “Seals… of divine wrath”

    That phrase has me thinking of a plague of seals or some sort of pinniped . Perhaps leopard seals or elephant seals or even sea lions or walruses. Those giant tusks are just a bit intimidating. Applying “literal” images to seal names might make something Revelation-worthy.

    Or flying killer whales. Because as soon as those things make it out of the water, we’re never getting the beaches back.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    So we get a time jump (“18 months later”) followed by multiple flashbacks?


    Buck had resigned himself to doing the best he could for the kingdom of God, just as Chloe’s father had done.    You know, with better writers, I wouldn’t object to this phrase. After all, Buck has spent his whole life working on becoming the Greatest Investigative Reporter Of All Time, and now, completely out of left field, he learnsa.) The world will end in less than 7 yearsb.) Before the world ends, it will be plunged into chaos and sufferingc.) God has a plan, and Buck Williams is a part of that plan whether he likes it or not.I could imagine a good writer showing someone struggling with that kind of a revelation. It’s actually the stuff of halfway decent drama. The young prodigy develops a condition in their teenage years that forces them to give up on their dreams and talents, and have to become something else. Heck, even the young man who hopes of settling down with a wife, kids, and a farm can get drafted to fight in a hellish, ugly war. What doesn’t work is when the young prodigy, already allegedly at the top of their craft, gets showered with praise, given opportunities to be sheltered from the coming harm and suffering, and still whines about ‘resigning himself’. Buck’s the kind of guy who could win the lottery and complain about all the taxes he has to pay.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    So we get a time jump (“18 months later”) followed by multiple flashbacks?


    Buck had resigned himself to doing the best he could for the kingdom of God, just as Chloe’s father had done.    You know, with better writers, I wouldn’t object to this phrase. After all, Buck has spent his whole life working on becoming the Greatest Investigative Reporter Of All Time, and now, completely out of left field, he learnsa.) The world will end in less than 7 yearsb.) Before the world ends, it will be plunged into chaos and sufferingc.) God has a plan, and Buck Williams is a part of that plan whether he likes it or not.I could imagine a good writer showing someone struggling with that kind of a revelation. It’s actually the stuff of halfway decent drama. The young prodigy develops a condition in their teenage years that forces them to give up on their dreams and talents, and have to become something else. Heck, even the young man who hopes of settling down with a wife, kids, and a farm can get drafted to fight in a hellish, ugly war. What doesn’t work is when the young prodigy, already allegedly at the top of their craft, gets showered with praise, given opportunities to be sheltered from the coming harm and suffering, and still whines about ‘resigning himself’. Buck’s the kind of guy who could win the lottery and complain about all the taxes he has to pay.

  • Anonymous

    Which part?  “I will never doubt again” is intentionally funny?

  • Anonymous

    Which part?  “I will never doubt again” is intentionally funny?

  • http://twitter.com/infernalserpent Cameron

    It really does feel like you could just apply that bit of writing — “He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction” — to every woman in the book. Freaking women, mucking up our awesome manly-man fun times with huge throbbing planes and laser-firing Jesus!

  • http://twitter.com/infernalserpent Cameron

    It really does feel like you could just apply that bit of writing — “He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction” — to every woman in the book. Freaking women, mucking up our awesome manly-man fun times with huge throbbing planes and laser-firing Jesus!

  • Lori

     Which part?  “I will never doubt again” is intentionally funny? 

     

    The whole bit is funny. “Well you were dead” is the tip off. 

  • Lori

     Which part?  “I will never doubt again” is intentionally funny? 

     

    The whole bit is funny. “Well you were dead” is the tip off. 

  • Rikalous

    Which part?  “I will never doubt again” is intentionally funny?

    “Why didn’t you wait for me?”
    “Well, you were dead.”

  • Rikalous

    Which part?  “I will never doubt again” is intentionally funny?

    “Why didn’t you wait for me?”
    “Well, you were dead.”

  • Anonymous

    Or flying killer whales. Because as soon as those things make it out of the water, we’re never getting the beaches back.

    They’re halfway there.  WARNING: Cute seals are hunted and eaten by orcas in this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWsN63PRCW8

    He lowered his head until he eyes were inches from hers. “Did you hear me?” he said. “Don’t say it again. Don’t imply it, don’t even think it. There’s no possible way you could care for me more than I care for you. You are my whole life. I love you, Chloe. Don’t you know that?”

    Yeah, that’s not romantic.  That’s creepy.  If someone said that to me I would be pretty darn concerned. 

    One, I cannot stand the phrase “Did you hear me?” which I have never heard used in a non-condescending manner.  Two, don’t ever tell me what to feel or think.  Three, if I’m your “whole life” then that’s too much of a burden to ask anyone to carry and  I’m going to wonder if you’re getting ready to get all serial-killer possessive on me. 

    Run, Meta-Chole, run!

  • Anonymous

    Or flying killer whales. Because as soon as those things make it out of the water, we’re never getting the beaches back.

    They’re halfway there.  WARNING: Cute seals are hunted and eaten by orcas in this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWsN63PRCW8

    He lowered his head until he eyes were inches from hers. “Did you hear me?” he said. “Don’t say it again. Don’t imply it, don’t even think it. There’s no possible way you could care for me more than I care for you. You are my whole life. I love you, Chloe. Don’t you know that?”

    Yeah, that’s not romantic.  That’s creepy.  If someone said that to me I would be pretty darn concerned. 

    One, I cannot stand the phrase “Did you hear me?” which I have never heard used in a non-condescending manner.  Two, don’t ever tell me what to feel or think.  Three, if I’m your “whole life” then that’s too much of a burden to ask anyone to carry and  I’m going to wonder if you’re getting ready to get all serial-killer possessive on me. 

    Run, Meta-Chole, run!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000030681868 Ben E. Hexapodiaasthekeyinsigh

    Does it seem strange to anyone else that Chloe has her hands “at her sides” and not, y’know, around Buck?  Chloe seems to be standing very stiff and straight, perhaps propped up on Buck by her head…I’m trying to picture this scene in my head, and this just breaks it for me, more even than the creepy dialogue.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000030681868 Ben E. Hexapodiaasthekeyinsigh

    Does it seem strange to anyone else that Chloe has her hands “at her sides” and not, y’know, around Buck?  Chloe seems to be standing very stiff and straight, perhaps propped up on Buck by her head…I’m trying to picture this scene in my head, and this just breaks it for me, more even than the creepy dialogue.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000030681868 Ben E. Hexapodiaasthekeyinsigh

    Correction: I can visualize this scene, but only with a happy couple being cute.  head-propping does not work for serious drama.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000030681868 Ben E. Hexapodiaasthekeyinsigh

    Correction: I can visualize this scene, but only with a happy couple being cute.  head-propping does not work for serious drama.

  • Ken

    I don’t particularly want to visit Gothard’s site after Fred’s anti-recommendation, and I certainly don’t want anyone else to suffer.  So does anyone already know – is this the same crew that thinks you can regain your virginity?

  • Ken

    I don’t particularly want to visit Gothard’s site after Fred’s anti-recommendation, and I certainly don’t want anyone else to suffer.  So does anyone already know – is this the same crew that thinks you can regain your virginity?

  • Daughter

    Buck had already planned his first kiss. He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then. It was going to be meaningful and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    Wha–?? Who plans a kiss like that?  And who the hell would consider it meaningful or special? (Oh, yeah, Buck, that’s who). This sounds more like a scenario for breaking up with someone without actually telling them so than an expression of love.

  • Daughter

    Buck had already planned his first kiss. He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then. It was going to be meaningful and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    Wha–?? Who plans a kiss like that?  And who the hell would consider it meaningful or special? (Oh, yeah, Buck, that’s who). This sounds more like a scenario for breaking up with someone without actually telling them so than an expression of love.

  • Amaryllis

    It really does feel like you could just apply that bit of writing — “He
    didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction” — to every woman in the
    book.

    Oh great, now I’ll have a Dylan earworm all night.
    Nobody has to guess, that Baby can’t be blessed,
    Till she sees finally that she’s like all the rest…

    Just like a woman, indeed.

  • Amaryllis

    It really does feel like you could just apply that bit of writing — “He
    didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction” — to every woman in the
    book.

    Oh great, now I’ll have a Dylan earworm all night.
    Nobody has to guess, that Baby can’t be blessed,
    Till she sees finally that she’s like all the rest…

    Just like a woman, indeed.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NYIMSCWWLA5XTAYXL3FXNCJZ7I Kiba

    I don’t know exactly how funny you find it, but unless your laughter hit the “crying and can’t breath” stage I feel confident that you don’t find it funnier than you should. I swear these people. So sex-obsessed and yet so dense. I can’t even.

    I must say it took me a few minutes to get what Fred was talking about. >.> I’m slow on the uptake today. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NYIMSCWWLA5XTAYXL3FXNCJZ7I Kiba

    I don’t know exactly how funny you find it, but unless your laughter hit the “crying and can’t breath” stage I feel confident that you don’t find it funnier than you should. I swear these people. So sex-obsessed and yet so dense. I can’t even.

    I must say it took me a few minutes to get what Fred was talking about. >.> I’m slow on the uptake today.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Does it seem strange to anyone else that Chloe has her hands “at her sides” and not, y’know, around Buck?  Chloe seems to be standing very stiff and straight, perhaps propped up on Buck by her head…I’m trying to picture this scene in my head, and this just breaks it for me, more even than the creepy dialogue.

    Actually, I can see that happening.  It does imply a few things about the person being hugged though.  Primarily, that they are unused to receiving physical gestures of affection and comfort, such as hugs, and are caught somewhat flat-footed by the embrace.  I would infer from this scene that Chloe’s family has very little physical contact with one another.  She knows what a hug is, but she is not used to being part of one, and tenses up when embraced unexpectedly, nervous and confused about what she should do with her body in such a situation.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Does it seem strange to anyone else that Chloe has her hands “at her sides” and not, y’know, around Buck?  Chloe seems to be standing very stiff and straight, perhaps propped up on Buck by her head…I’m trying to picture this scene in my head, and this just breaks it for me, more even than the creepy dialogue.

    Actually, I can see that happening.  It does imply a few things about the person being hugged though.  Primarily, that they are unused to receiving physical gestures of affection and comfort, such as hugs, and are caught somewhat flat-footed by the embrace.  I would infer from this scene that Chloe’s family has very little physical contact with one another.  She knows what a hug is, but she is not used to being part of one, and tenses up when embraced unexpectedly, nervous and confused about what she should do with her body in such a situation.  

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NYIMSCWWLA5XTAYXL3FXNCJZ7I Kiba

    That phrase has me thinking of a plague of seals or some sort of pinniped.

    You can also get a nasty case of Seal Finger from them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_finger

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NYIMSCWWLA5XTAYXL3FXNCJZ7I Kiba

    That phrase has me thinking of a plague of seals or some sort of pinniped.

    You can also get a nasty case of Seal Finger from them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_finger

  • tenniszombie

    I’ve read this blog for months now, but I’m finally de-lurking. Partly to marvel at the perseverance of Fred and everyone else reading this series, because even after having it disinfected for me I still have to go read slashfic to cleanse my mind’s eye,  and partly to ask if anyone has any idea what it would take for these characters to start acting like human beings. All I can come up with is an incursion by Slaanesh cultists.

  • tenniszombie

    I’ve read this blog for months now, but I’m finally de-lurking. Partly to marvel at the perseverance of Fred and everyone else reading this series, because even after having it disinfected for me I still have to go read slashfic to cleanse my mind’s eye,  and partly to ask if anyone has any idea what it would take for these characters to start acting like human beings. All I can come up with is an incursion by Slaanesh cultists.

  • Magpie

    Does Chloe want to kiss him at all?  [Chloe is] ‘trying to continue to work’ ‘hands were at her sides’ ‘she resisted at first’ ‘felt her nearly recoil’ ‘her tears’ ‘cutting off her words’ ‘she pulled away … but her covered her mouth’

  • Magpie

    Does Chloe want to kiss him at all?  [Chloe is] ‘trying to continue to work’ ‘hands were at her sides’ ‘she resisted at first’ ‘felt her nearly recoil’ ‘her tears’ ‘cutting off her words’ ‘she pulled away … but her covered her mouth’

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    All I can come up with is an incursion by Slaanesh cultists.

    According to the authors of Left Behind pretty much everyone not already a Real, True Christian is an evil, degenerately hedonistic Slaanesh cultist.  Not that they would actually use the name of the Prince of Pleasures to describe them.  Real, True Christians never play tabletop games, as those lead to devil worship and paganism, according to Jack Chick.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000030681868 Ben E. Hexapodiaasthekeyinsigh

    She knows what a hug is, but she is not used to being part of one, and tenses up when embraced unexpectedly, nervous and confused about what she should do with her body in such a situation.

    I see that now.  In that case, though, I think she pushed him back, and he doesn’t want to admit it.  OOPS.  NOW BUCK IS EVEN MORE CREEPY.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    All I can come up with is an incursion by Slaanesh cultists.

    According to the authors of Left Behind pretty much everyone not already a Real, True Christian is an evil, degenerately hedonistic Slaanesh cultist.  Not that they would actually use the name of the Prince of Pleasures to describe them.  Real, True Christians never play tabletop games, as those lead to devil worship and paganism, according to Jack Chick.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000030681868 Ben E. Hexapodiaasthekeyinsigh

    She knows what a hug is, but she is not used to being part of one, and tenses up when embraced unexpectedly, nervous and confused about what she should do with her body in such a situation.

    I see that now.  In that case, though, I think she pushed him back, and he doesn’t want to admit it.  OOPS.  NOW BUCK IS EVEN MORE CREEPY.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    * The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

    I always refer to Mr. Bill as if his name were actually two words.  I don’t think he should be taken seriously (and I’m truly sad whenever I see stories of people who did take him seriously and made their children take him seriously, too).  But I think that there’s a special, childish way in which he shouldn’t be taken seriously.  It’s only fair, really.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    * The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

    I always refer to Mr. Bill as if his name were actually two words.  I don’t think he should be taken seriously (and I’m truly sad whenever I see stories of people who did take him seriously and made their children take him seriously, too).  But I think that there’s a special, childish way in which he shouldn’t be taken seriously.  It’s only fair, really.

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    He lowered his head until he eyes were inches from hers. “Did you hear me?” he said. “Don’t say it again. Don’t imply it, don’t even think it. There’s no possible way you could care for me more than I care for you. You are my whole life. I love you, Chloe. Don’t you know that?”

    He felt her nearly recoil at that first declaration of his love. Her tears rolled over his hands, and she began to say, “How would I –?” But he lowered his mouth to hers, cutting off her words. And it was no quick touch of the lips. She raised her hands between his arms, wrapped them around his neck, and held him tight as they kissed.

    She pulled away…

    Sounds like Jenkins dug into his wife’s secret stash of romance novels, but found one of the “it’s not rape if you enjoy it” ones. 

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    He lowered his head until he eyes were inches from hers. “Did you hear me?” he said. “Don’t say it again. Don’t imply it, don’t even think it. There’s no possible way you could care for me more than I care for you. You are my whole life. I love you, Chloe. Don’t you know that?”

    He felt her nearly recoil at that first declaration of his love. Her tears rolled over his hands, and she began to say, “How would I –?” But he lowered his mouth to hers, cutting off her words. And it was no quick touch of the lips. She raised her hands between his arms, wrapped them around his neck, and held him tight as they kissed.

    She pulled away…

    Sounds like Jenkins dug into his wife’s secret stash of romance novels, but found one of the “it’s not rape if you enjoy it” ones. 

  • nanananana

    That’s what I was going ot say!
    This entire scene reads more like she’sbeing assaulted than she kissing the love of her life.

    Though I can vouche for the whole awkward kiss thing.But only when you’re a horny 15 year old whose never been kissed and just want to do it already and all you’re friends are starng and taking pictures.The level of awkwardness is about the same as this passage.

    Also.You finding out Gothard isn’t case sensitive just makes me love you more Fred.

  • nanananana

    That’s what I was going ot say!
    This entire scene reads more like she’sbeing assaulted than she kissing the love of her life.

    Though I can vouche for the whole awkward kiss thing.But only when you’re a horny 15 year old whose never been kissed and just want to do it already and all you’re friends are starng and taking pictures.The level of awkwardness is about the same as this passage.

    Also.You finding out Gothard isn’t case sensitive just makes me love you more Fred.

  • nanananana

    Sidenote:Did anyone else see boardwalk empire last night?
    Because it’s just dawned on me that the relationship between van alden and his wife is probably exactly like what the marriage between these two is gonna be.

  • http://www.iki.fi/wwwwolf/ Urpo Lankinen

    In fact, Buck would never forget the first time he had kissed Chloe. It
    had been the night he left for New York by car, about a year before.

    “Oh, to bring back that romantic memory of my first kiss! That sweet, blissful romantic memory immediately brings to my mind… the travel plans.”

    That, or the phone calls.

    Because that’s what these books are about.

  • nanananana

    Sidenote:Did anyone else see boardwalk empire last night?
    Because it’s just dawned on me that the relationship between van alden and his wife is probably exactly like what the marriage between these two is gonna be.

  • http://www.iki.fi/wwwwolf/ Urpo Lankinen

    In fact, Buck would never forget the first time he had kissed Chloe. It
    had been the night he left for New York by car, about a year before.

    “Oh, to bring back that romantic memory of my first kiss! That sweet, blissful romantic memory immediately brings to my mind… the travel plans.”

    That, or the phone calls.

    Because that’s what these books are about.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    Have you looked at Right Behind? Ghe site’s purpose is to make the characters act like human beings.

    I’m a little morbidly curious now about Left Behind slashfic. The intended audience probably doesn’t write it (at least not without covering their tracks REALLY well,) many, many slash jokes have been made here— but is any of it actually good?

    And then I realize what I’m wondering about and conclude that I should probably get off the Internet before my eyes fall out.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    Have you looked at Right Behind? Ghe site’s purpose is to make the characters act like human beings.

    I’m a little morbidly curious now about Left Behind slashfic. The intended audience probably doesn’t write it (at least not without covering their tracks REALLY well,) many, many slash jokes have been made here— but is any of it actually good?

    And then I realize what I’m wondering about and conclude that I should probably get off the Internet before my eyes fall out.

  • http://twitter.com/Jenk3 Jen K

    Does Chloe want to kiss him at all?  [Chloe is] ‘trying to continue to work’ ‘hands were at her sides’ ‘she resisted at first’ ‘felt her nearly recoil’ ‘her tears’ ‘cutting off her words’ ‘she pulled away … but her covered her mouth’

    Magpie – Agreed.  I know for plot purposes she’s supposed to want to kiss him, but the rest of this reads as her resisting.  Not sure if this is supposed to imply that she’s so overcome with emotion at physical touch that she is trying to pull away, or if it’s meant to imply that she’s being a Godly unmarried woman who does NOT initiate any sort of sexual contact. 

  • http://twitter.com/Jenk3 Jen K

    Does Chloe want to kiss him at all?  [Chloe is] ‘trying to continue to work’ ‘hands were at her sides’ ‘she resisted at first’ ‘felt her nearly recoil’ ‘her tears’ ‘cutting off her words’ ‘she pulled away … but her covered her mouth’

    Magpie – Agreed.  I know for plot purposes she’s supposed to want to kiss him, but the rest of this reads as her resisting.  Not sure if this is supposed to imply that she’s so overcome with emotion at physical touch that she is trying to pull away, or if it’s meant to imply that she’s being a Godly unmarried woman who does NOT initiate any sort of sexual contact. 

  • Anonymous

    And the odds are pretty high that Buck will be killed by one of the seals …

    Halfway down Michigan Avenue, Buck said the hell with it and ducked into an alley, cursing his impulsiveness the moment he set foot into the shadows.  This was stupid, he knew it, no matter how much he needed the shortcut; it wasn’t safe downtown off the main streets.  Not since the earthquake last month.  Buck had seen the aftermath himself, had reported on it, had seen firsthand the Shedd Aquarium in shambles.  The fish had spilled from their shattered tanks, gasped, and died; a few of the turtles were thought to have made their way out into the lake.  But the others … they’d gotten loose into the city.  You never saw them; they were smart, they stayed out of sight.  But you heard things.  Everyone did.  Everyone knew better than to do what Buck was doing now.

    He clutched his shopping bag closer, feeling the box of Oreos pressing into the rapidly-softening quart of Chubby Hubby, and jogged on.  He’d be back under the lights any minute now, just a few more turns –

    Buck heard the sound and stopped dead, listening, panicking.  A wet slap, echoing from the shadows ahead, followed by a snuffling sound and another slap.  “God, protect me,” he prayed silently, and in the shadows ahead he saw two small eyes reflecting back the moonlight, cold, predatory, adorable.

    A frozen moment ticked by.  Then the barking began, first from the shape before him, and quickly answered by a dozen more from every direction.  Buck dropped his bag and ran, blinded by terror.  His world was a whirl of speed and terror and the hellish applause of flippers on pavement.

    Suddenly, from out of the blackness, the glimmer of white fangs.  The brush of whiskers.  And then nothing.

    —–

    The police never found his head.  But in the morning they taped off the area and collected what was left of Cameron Williams, age thirty-two.  Detective Sykes didn’t need a face or dental records to identify the victim; the wallet was right there in the back pocket, untouched.  Just like all the others.  Sykes had seen too many of these crime scenes this month; knew who was responsible; knew all about these fucking animals and what they were after.  They weren’t interested in money or ATM cards.  They weren’t even looking for a meal.

    They just wanted a new ball.

  • Anonymous

    And the odds are pretty high that Buck will be killed by one of the seals …

    Halfway down Michigan Avenue, Buck said the hell with it and ducked into an alley, cursing his impulsiveness the moment he set foot into the shadows.  This was stupid, he knew it, no matter how much he needed the shortcut; it wasn’t safe downtown off the main streets.  Not since the earthquake last month.  Buck had seen the aftermath himself, had reported on it, had seen firsthand the Shedd Aquarium in shambles.  The fish had spilled from their shattered tanks, gasped, and died; a few of the turtles were thought to have made their way out into the lake.  But the others … they’d gotten loose into the city.  You never saw them; they were smart, they stayed out of sight.  But you heard things.  Everyone did.  Everyone knew better than to do what Buck was doing now.

    He clutched his shopping bag closer, feeling the box of Oreos pressing into the rapidly-softening quart of Chubby Hubby, and jogged on.  He’d be back under the lights any minute now, just a few more turns –

    Buck heard the sound and stopped dead, listening, panicking.  A wet slap, echoing from the shadows ahead, followed by a snuffling sound and another slap.  “God, protect me,” he prayed silently, and in the shadows ahead he saw two small eyes reflecting back the moonlight, cold, predatory, adorable.

    A frozen moment ticked by.  Then the barking began, first from the shape before him, and quickly answered by a dozen more from every direction.  Buck dropped his bag and ran, blinded by terror.  His world was a whirl of speed and terror and the hellish applause of flippers on pavement.

    Suddenly, from out of the blackness, the glimmer of white fangs.  The brush of whiskers.  And then nothing.

    —–

    The police never found his head.  But in the morning they taped off the area and collected what was left of Cameron Williams, age thirty-two.  Detective Sykes didn’t need a face or dental records to identify the victim; the wallet was right there in the back pocket, untouched.  Just like all the others.  Sykes had seen too many of these crime scenes this month; knew who was responsible; knew all about these fucking animals and what they were after.  They weren’t interested in money or ATM cards.  They weren’t even looking for a meal.

    They just wanted a new ball.

  • Anonymous

    And the odds are pretty high that Buck will be killed by one of the seals …

    Halfway down Michigan Avenue, Buck said the hell with it and ducked into an alley, cursing his impulsiveness the moment he set foot into the shadows.  This was stupid, he knew it, no matter how much he needed the shortcut; it wasn’t safe downtown off the main streets.  Not since the earthquake last month.  Buck had seen the aftermath himself, had reported on it, had seen firsthand the Shedd Aquarium in shambles.  The fish had spilled from their shattered tanks, gasped, and died; a few of the turtles were thought to have made their way out into the lake.  But the others … they’d gotten loose into the city.  You never saw them; they were smart, they stayed out of sight.  But you heard things.  Everyone did.  Everyone knew better than to do what Buck was doing now.

    He clutched his shopping bag closer, feeling the box of Oreos pressing into the rapidly-softening quart of Chubby Hubby, and jogged on.  He’d be back under the lights any minute now, just a few more turns –

    Buck heard the sound and stopped dead, listening, panicking.  A wet slap, echoing from the shadows ahead, followed by a snuffling sound and another slap.  “God, protect me,” he prayed silently, and in the shadows ahead he saw two small eyes reflecting back the moonlight, cold, predatory, adorable.

    A frozen moment ticked by.  Then the barking began, first from the shape before him, and quickly answered by a dozen more from every direction.  Buck dropped his bag and ran, blinded by panic.  His world was a whirl of speed and terror and the hellish applause of flippers on pavement.

    Suddenly, from out of the blackness, the glimmer of white fangs.  The brush of whiskers.  And then nothing.

    —–

    The police never found his head.  But in the morning they taped off the area and collected what was left of Cameron Williams, age thirty-two.  Detective Sykes didn’t need a face or dental records to identify the victim; the wallet was right there in the back pocket, untouched.  Just like all the others.  Sykes had seen too many of these crime scenes this month; knew who was responsible; knew all about these fucking animals and what they were after.  They weren’t interested in money or ATM cards.  They weren’t even looking for a meal.

    They just wanted a new ball.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    Dang it! I was getting ready to write some fic over on RightBehind, and then I read Vermic, open my vault for an internet to give him, and realize I’m not half that slick a writer.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    Dang it! I was getting ready to write some fic over on RightBehind, and then I read Vermic, open my vault for an internet to give him, and realize I’m not half that slick a writer.

  • Anonymous

    He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then. It was going to be meaningful and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    What the…. 
    It has to be meaningful, but just a brush on the lips? He doesn’t want to have to deal with kissing her more than once? How is this even a thing that Jenkins is describing? 

    Listen, I am usually pretty clumsy with women, but I’ve managed to learn how to not be terrible at kissing, and Buck’s list does not correspond to anything I’ve ever heard, seen, or felt.
    Then again, I don’t date in the RTC Chastity Ring Purity Ball circles, so what do I know?

  • Anonymous

    He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then. It was going to be meaningful and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    What the…. 
    It has to be meaningful, but just a brush on the lips? He doesn’t want to have to deal with kissing her more than once? How is this even a thing that Jenkins is describing? 

    Listen, I am usually pretty clumsy with women, but I’ve managed to learn how to not be terrible at kissing, and Buck’s list does not correspond to anything I’ve ever heard, seen, or felt.
    Then again, I don’t date in the RTC Chastity Ring Purity Ball circles, so what do I know?

  • Anonymous

    He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction, or deal with kissing her again just then. It was going to be meaningful and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    What the…. 
    It has to be meaningful, but just a brush on the lips? He doesn’t want to have to deal with kissing her more than once? How is this even a thing that Jenkins is describing? 

    Listen, I am usually pretty clumsy with women, but I’ve managed to learn how to not be terrible at kissing, and Buck’s list does not correspond to anything I’ve ever heard, seen, or felt.
    Then again, I don’t date in the RTC Chastity Ring Purity Ball circles, so what do I know?

  • Randy Owens

    Having finally watched the Kill Bill movies recently, the combination of Buck and pseudo-sexual relations is taking on a whole new meaning for me now.

  • Randy Owens

    Having finally watched the Kill Bill movies recently, the combination of Buck and pseudo-sexual relations is taking on a whole new meaning for me now.

  • Anonymous

    Some flash fiction… 

    Until The End of the World 

    The waiting in the dark was the worst part. The trying to keep your breathing slow and even, when you felt that each breath had to be the loudest sound in the world. But to hold your breath in was to make you eventually gasp for air and rattle and draw the attention you feared. The crackdown had begun two months ago, Ella remembered watching New Hope burn to the ground. 

    Any organization that did not pledge fealty to Carpathia was to be abolished and with that edict  the churches fled underground with Global Community Forces on their heels. Loretta had been ready. Bruce had disappeared weeks before, muttering something about a “spiritual retreat to prepare myself for my leadership role.” Buck had appeared once, with fresh Botox injections, to collect some of Bruce’s “important papers” for Buck’s supposedly secret rebellion website. Loretta had gotten the actual work done of smuggling the older and infirm, and the new mothers to safe houses, the rest were ready for the business of being Helpers and surviving as long as they could. 

    Ella and Jimmy were resting in the burnt out shell of an old toy store in a strip mall that had been looted to pieces and abandoned in the rebuilding plans. They were to get to New York City and make contact with a group called The Reeds. They didn’t have to be told they were also to provide aid to anyone they could while spreading the word Carpathia was not the Messiah. 

    They had abandoned their car when they crossed into Ohio. They had been walking for days, a close call with GC Pathkeepers kept them skittish from making contact with an underground cell and getting a new vehicle that way. They walked until exhaustion finally took them and they found shelter in the Toy Store. 

    Ella smiled faintly looking at the remains of the ruined boxes and toys around her, “I think I had that game growing up.” 
    Jimmy was making a small fire and looked up at her, “I think I stole that game once,” his face darkened, “can you imagine? Stealing some kids toys for drugs. Course it was after the event, but that makes it worse don’t it?” He sat down beside her with a sigh. 
    Ella looked into the flickering firelight, “We all do things we’re not proud of. What matters is how you make amends, and how you go on to be a better person tomorrow than you were today.” 
    “Thanks. That’s really nice.” 
    “Don’t mention it, I think we can try to make contact with the underground tomorrow. I know they’ve got an outpost here, I saw the sparrow,” Ella said, referring to the small, black, spray painted bird that would appear inconspicuously on a wall already covered in graffiti, letting someone know fellow believers were in the area. 
    “Sounds good,” Jimmy said, and he watched the fire. Ella noticed how the fire reflected in his eyes, and how beautiful it made them. She felt the slow creep of warmth up her spine that’d she’d been feeling increasingly when she looked at Jimmy. “Oh not now,” she told herself, “I’m so tired and beat down, and dirty for that matter.” But a voice inside answered, “Yes, but wouldn’t it be nice to forget about that? Just for a little while?” 

    Jimmy caught her stare and Ella quickly looked away. But he took one of her hands. His hands were so warm and calloused, she shivered as he rubbed her fingers. They were both looking at each other now, the air around them had become very still. Jimmy looked like he wanted to speak, he opened his mouth and quickly closed it again. He looked down at her hand he was holding, he turned it over and looked at the lines at her palm, Ella could feel her heart pounding in her ears. Jimmy took her hand and held it over his heart, for a few long moments both were still, Ella feeling Jimmy’s heartbeat through her finger tips. Another moment. Ella smiled. 

    “You know, I think I’d like it a whole lot if you kissed me right now.” 

    And he did. 

  • Anonymous

    Some flash fiction… 

    Until The End of the World 

    The waiting in the dark was the worst part. The trying to keep your breathing slow and even, when you felt that each breath had to be the loudest sound in the world. But to hold your breath in was to make you eventually gasp for air and rattle and draw the attention you feared. The crackdown had begun two months ago, Ella remembered watching New Hope burn to the ground. 

    Any organization that did not pledge fealty to Carpathia was to be abolished and with that edict  the churches fled underground with Global Community Forces on their heels. Loretta had been ready. Bruce had disappeared weeks before, muttering something about a “spiritual retreat to prepare myself for my leadership role.” Buck had appeared once, with fresh Botox injections, to collect some of Bruce’s “important papers” for Buck’s supposedly secret rebellion website. Loretta had gotten the actual work done of smuggling the older and infirm, and the new mothers to safe houses, the rest were ready for the business of being Helpers and surviving as long as they could. 

    Ella and Jimmy were resting in the burnt out shell of an old toy store in a strip mall that had been looted to pieces and abandoned in the rebuilding plans. They were to get to New York City and make contact with a group called The Reeds. They didn’t have to be told they were also to provide aid to anyone they could while spreading the word Carpathia was not the Messiah. 

    They had abandoned their car when they crossed into Ohio. They had been walking for days, a close call with GC Pathkeepers kept them skittish from making contact with an underground cell and getting a new vehicle that way. They walked until exhaustion finally took them and they found shelter in the Toy Store. 

    Ella smiled faintly looking at the remains of the ruined boxes and toys around her, “I think I had that game growing up.” 
    Jimmy was making a small fire and looked up at her, “I think I stole that game once,” his face darkened, “can you imagine? Stealing some kids toys for drugs. Course it was after the event, but that makes it worse don’t it?” He sat down beside her with a sigh. 
    Ella looked into the flickering firelight, “We all do things we’re not proud of. What matters is how you make amends, and how you go on to be a better person tomorrow than you were today.” 
    “Thanks. That’s really nice.” 
    “Don’t mention it, I think we can try to make contact with the underground tomorrow. I know they’ve got an outpost here, I saw the sparrow,” Ella said, referring to the small, black, spray painted bird that would appear inconspicuously on a wall already covered in graffiti, letting someone know fellow believers were in the area. 
    “Sounds good,” Jimmy said, and he watched the fire. Ella noticed how the fire reflected in his eyes, and how beautiful it made them. She felt the slow creep of warmth up her spine that’d she’d been feeling increasingly when she looked at Jimmy. “Oh not now,” she told herself, “I’m so tired and beat down, and dirty for that matter.” But a voice inside answered, “Yes, but wouldn’t it be nice to forget about that? Just for a little while?” 

    Jimmy caught her stare and Ella quickly looked away. But he took one of her hands. His hands were so warm and calloused, she shivered as he rubbed her fingers. They were both looking at each other now, the air around them had become very still. Jimmy looked like he wanted to speak, he opened his mouth and quickly closed it again. He looked down at her hand he was holding, he turned it over and looked at the lines at her palm, Ella could feel her heart pounding in her ears. Jimmy took her hand and held it over his heart, for a few long moments both were still, Ella feeling Jimmy’s heartbeat through her finger tips. Another moment. Ella smiled. 

    “You know, I think I’d like it a whole lot if you kissed me right now.” 

    And he did. 

  • tenniszombie

    I’ll have to check out Right Behind. Anything to lessen the pain at this point: my desk can’t take many more dents, and neither can my head.

    In regards to LB slashfic: I’ve never been brave enough to check. I draw my palate cleansers from other fandoms.
    (I think the mere prospect is making my hair hurt, though.)

  • tenniszombie

    I’ll have to check out Right Behind. Anything to lessen the pain at this point: my desk can’t take many more dents, and neither can my head.

    In regards to LB slashfic: I’ve never been brave enough to check. I draw my palate cleansers from other fandoms.
    (I think the mere prospect is making my hair hurt, though.)

  • Flying Squid with Goggles

    Just about everything that happens leading up to that kiss is a sign that these two people shouldn’t really be together.

  • Flying Squid with Goggles

    Just about everything that happens leading up to that kiss is a sign that these two people shouldn’t really be together.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    I had a couple of pieces about “The Courtship of MetaChloe”. Two are up, I’m working on a third (Trashy Flowers) and fourth. (I Did It All for the Cookie)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    The thing that just clangs so badly is Buck planning out the kiss. Yes, I get that someone might say, mentally, “I’m hoping for a kiss after this date”, but it’s usually been things like this kind of dialog:

    “I like you a lot. Can I kiss you?”

    … or even unspoken mutual consent at a suitable time.

    I think it’s been discussed before, but L&J really do seem hamstrung by the requirements of writing to their intended audience. They can’t make the date or the kiss be spontaneous and unforced, because as I understand it there is a certain method to this courtship thing they’ve got going on, and they also can’t have Chloe enjoying it as much as Buck does, because that would make them human beings instead of authorial chess pieces.

    Every time I think Buck’s GIRAT-y douchiness might be reaching a plateau, along comes one of these posts to convince me otherwise. :

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    I had a couple of pieces about “The Courtship of MetaChloe”. Two are up, I’m working on a third (Trashy Flowers) and fourth. (I Did It All for the Cookie)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    The thing that just clangs so badly is Buck planning out the kiss. Yes, I get that someone might say, mentally, “I’m hoping for a kiss after this date”, but it’s usually been things like this kind of dialog:

    “I like you a lot. Can I kiss you?”

    … or even unspoken mutual consent at a suitable time.

    I think it’s been discussed before, but L&J really do seem hamstrung by the requirements of writing to their intended audience. They can’t make the date or the kiss be spontaneous and unforced, because as I understand it there is a certain method to this courtship thing they’ve got going on, and they also can’t have Chloe enjoying it as much as Buck does, because that would make them human beings instead of authorial chess pieces.

    Every time I think Buck’s GIRAT-y douchiness might be reaching a plateau, along comes one of these posts to convince me otherwise. :

  • http://www.bawdyhouse.wordpress.com James Hanley

    and they had walked hand in hand, sometimes arm in arm

    Umm, is “arm in arm” supposed to be super more intimate, more daring and erotic, than hand in hand?

    My daughter’s 14.  Should I be telling her, “Hon, be careful.  Some boys are only after you to hold your hand.  That’s bad enough, but you really need to look out for those who want to walk arm in arm!  Do that and you’re walking with the devil, missy!”

  • http://www.bawdyhouse.wordpress.com James Hanley

    and they had walked hand in hand, sometimes arm in arm

    Umm, is “arm in arm” supposed to be super more intimate, more daring and erotic, than hand in hand?

    My daughter’s 14.  Should I be telling her, “Hon, be careful.  Some boys are only after you to hold your hand.  That’s bad enough, but you really need to look out for those who want to walk arm in arm!  Do that and you’re walking with the devil, missy!”

  • http://www.bawdyhouse.wordpress.com James Hanley

    and they had walked hand in hand, sometimes arm in arm

    Umm, is “arm in arm” supposed to be super more intimate, more daring and erotic, than hand in hand?

    My daughter’s 14.  Should I be telling her, “Hon, be careful.  Some boys are only after you to hold your hand.  That’s bad enough, but you really need to look out for those who want to walk arm in arm!  Do that and you’re walking with the devil, missy!”

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    You should tell her that anyway, if only to crack the two of you up!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    You should tell her that anyway, if only to crack the two of you up!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    I could almost buy that as good characterization if Buck had been established as someone who was really nervous, careful, and neurotic. If he was the kind of awkward savant-type character (think of the characters of the ‘Big Bang Theory’ or really any other popular depiction of nerdy characters), I could see one of them planning a first kiss like it was some kind of drug raid. But Buck was, up until this point, some kind of suave super-spy / international reporter / action hero. I find it hard to believe that he’s never kissed anyone before (let alone had sex); he’s just not that type of character!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    I could almost buy that as good characterization if Buck had been established as someone who was really nervous, careful, and neurotic. If he was the kind of awkward savant-type character (think of the characters of the ‘Big Bang Theory’ or really any other popular depiction of nerdy characters), I could see one of them planning a first kiss like it was some kind of drug raid. But Buck was, up until this point, some kind of suave super-spy / international reporter / action hero. I find it hard to believe that he’s never kissed anyone before (let alone had sex); he’s just not that type of character!!

  • P J Evans

    It does imply a few things about the person being hugged though.
    I’m also getting ‘I don’t want to be here; I don’t want this person close to me; I want this person to go away and leave me alone.’ Or, shorter form, “I want ,em>this person to FOAD.’

  • P J Evans

    It does imply a few things about the person being hugged though.
    I’m also getting ‘I don’t want to be here; I don’t want this person close to me; I want this person to go away and leave me alone.’ Or, shorter form, “I want ,em>this person to FOAD.’

  • Anonymous

    “He still hid his identity as a believer. Whatever freedom and perceived
    objectivity he had would soon be gone if that truth was known to
    Carpathia.”

    I think what bothers me most about Buck is his cowardice.  If he really wants to bring people to God, he should be shouting from the rooftops that Carpathia is the Antichrist.  Instead, he constantly hides this information, even from his friends, for no clear reason other than that he enjoys the thrill of being in on a secret.

  • Anonymous

    “He still hid his identity as a believer. Whatever freedom and perceived
    objectivity he had would soon be gone if that truth was known to
    Carpathia.”

    I think what bothers me most about Buck is his cowardice.  If he really wants to bring people to God, he should be shouting from the rooftops that Carpathia is the Antichrist.  Instead, he constantly hides this information, even from his friends, for no clear reason other than that he enjoys the thrill of being in on a secret.

  • Anonymous

    “He still hid his identity as a believer. Whatever freedom and perceived
    objectivity he had would soon be gone if that truth was known to
    Carpathia.”

    I think what bothers me most about Buck is his cowardice.  If he really wants to bring people to God, he should be shouting from the rooftops that Carpathia is the Antichrist.  Instead, he constantly hides this information, even from his friends, for no clear reason other than that he enjoys the thrill of being in on a secret.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    * The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

    ROFLMAO does not sufficiently express how much that subtle little footnote cracked me up.

    My ribs hurt.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    * The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

    ROFLMAO does not sufficiently express how much that subtle little footnote cracked me up.

    My ribs hurt.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    Hey @5fd637575a466c8bb6dca71c96118996:disqus have you been welcomed and instructed about the sheep yet? If not, consider it done.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    Hey @5fd637575a466c8bb6dca71c96118996:disqus have you been welcomed and instructed about the sheep yet? If not, consider it done.

  • Anonymous

    The misogyny is so amazing, Buck can’t care about Chloe, not really, because she’s a woman, and to treat a woman as being of any kind of importance or mattering more than a man is impossible. He’s basically with her because he can’t fuck her father. I guess I’m glad I’m no so cynical I’m still appalled by this worldview. 

  • Anonymous

    The misogyny is so amazing, Buck can’t care about Chloe, not really, because she’s a woman, and to treat a woman as being of any kind of importance or mattering more than a man is impossible. He’s basically with her because he can’t fuck her father. I guess I’m glad I’m no so cynical I’m still appalled by this worldview. 

  • Anonymous

    Buck had already planned his first kiss. He had hoped to find a reason
    to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good
    night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction,
    or deal with kissing her again just then.

    Almost wanted to give Jenkins some credit for this part.  At first it really looks he’s giving Buck a little bit of fallibility as a character (which is welcome after hearing him so overwhelmingly praised by just about everyone).  One can see him trying to stay distant and emotionally in control but
    failing to do so once the moment arrives, and there’s a nice bit of
    vulnerability there.  It’s a good way of setting up a contrast between what Buck thought he wanted and (slightly) less-distant kiss that was actually to follow.   Then I read the next sentence

    It was going to be meaningful
    and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    And I realized that anything I had inferred from the previous two sentences had been implied completely by accident.  *Sigh*  Hopes dashed yet again.

  • Anonymous

    Buck had already planned his first kiss. He had hoped to find a reason
    to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good
    night, and slip away. He didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction,
    or deal with kissing her again just then.

    Almost wanted to give Jenkins some credit for this part.  At first it really looks he’s giving Buck a little bit of fallibility as a character (which is welcome after hearing him so overwhelmingly praised by just about everyone).  One can see him trying to stay distant and emotionally in control but
    failing to do so once the moment arrives, and there’s a nice bit of
    vulnerability there.  It’s a good way of setting up a contrast between what Buck thought he wanted and (slightly) less-distant kiss that was actually to follow.   Then I read the next sentence

    It was going to be meaningful
    and special, but quick and simple, something they could build on later.

    where Jenkins rushes to justify Buck’s planned kiss, and I realized that anything I had inferred from the previous two sentences had been implied completely by accident.  *Sigh*  Hopes dashed yet again.

  • Joshua

    The quoted dialog actually makes me feel physically sick.* What a bunch of weirdos.

    * Full disclosure I have also been eating chocolate. Quite a lot of it. Um.

  • Joshua

    The quoted dialog actually makes me feel physically sick.* What a bunch of weirdos.

    * Full disclosure I have also been eating chocolate. Quite a lot of it. Um.

  • Joshua

    The quoted dialog actually makes me feel physically sick.* What a bunch of weirdos.

    * Full disclosure I have also been eating chocolate. Quite a lot of it. Um.

  • Anonymous

    The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

    Yeah, that’s up there with the Pen Island website.

  • Anonymous

    The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

    Yeah, that’s up there with the Pen Island website.

  • Anonymous

    “I wish you could come with me,” Buck said at one point.
    “Yeah, that would be appropriate,” she said.

    Oh, god.  If a girlfriend ever responded that way to me, I’d be expecting dumpage within two hours.

  • Anonymous

    “I wish you could come with me,” Buck said at one point.
    “Yeah, that would be appropriate,” she said.

    Oh, god.  If a girlfriend ever responded that way to me, I’d be expecting dumpage within two hours.

  • Anonymous

    “I wish you could come with me,” Buck said at one point.
    “Yeah, that would be appropriate,” she said.

    Oh, god.  If a girlfriend ever responded that way to me, I’d be expecting dumpage within two hours.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Yeah. Non-Jenkins-authored people say: “I wish you could come”, followed by “Me too, but I just can’t get away from thing X. Maybe next time, huh?”

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Yeah. Non-Jenkins-authored people say: “I wish you could come”, followed by “Me too, but I just can’t get away from thing X. Maybe next time, huh?”

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Yeah. Non-Jenkins-authored people say: “I wish you could come”, followed by “Me too, but I just can’t get away from thing X. Maybe next time, huh?”

    Getting a “Yeah, that would be appropriate” sounds kind of like the tight-lipped kind of thing someone would say after being fed up with being treated like someone else’s emotional trophy.

    (Buck does this; he made Chloe look like a fool after the 328947832994 page romance subplot big reveal, and now he’s making out like he’s the more emotionally-invested one of the relationship. As far as he’s concerned, Chloe’s the prize girlfriend/wife good enough to show off on his arm.)

  • Lori

    Yeah. Non-Jenkins-authored people say: “I wish you could come”, followed
    by “Me too, but I just can’t get away from thing X. Maybe next time,
    huh?” 

    Well, Buck is talking about moving to another city, so “maybe next time” doesn’t really work as a response. The issue is that it would be inappropriate for Chloe to go because they’re not married. I would normally say that a competent writer wouldn’t have used such totally unbelievable dialogue to express that, but for all I know young women in the RTC subculture actually do talk like Chloe.

  • Lori

    Yeah. Non-Jenkins-authored people say: “I wish you could come”, followed
    by “Me too, but I just can’t get away from thing X. Maybe next time,
    huh?” 

    Well, Buck is talking about moving to another city, so “maybe next time” doesn’t really work as a response. The issue is that it would be inappropriate for Chloe to go because they’re not married. I would normally say that a competent writer wouldn’t have used such totally unbelievable dialogue to express that, but for all I know young women in the RTC subculture actually do talk like Chloe.

  • Lori

    Yeah. Non-Jenkins-authored people say: “I wish you could come”, followed
    by “Me too, but I just can’t get away from thing X. Maybe next time,
    huh?” 

    Well, Buck is talking about moving to another city, so “maybe next time” doesn’t really work as a response. The issue is that it would be inappropriate for Chloe to go because they’re not married. I would normally say that a competent writer wouldn’t have used such totally unbelievable dialogue to express that, but for all I know young women in the RTC subculture actually do talk like Chloe.

  • Anonymous

    Another explanation for Chloe’s odd resistance to the man she is supposedly in love with is that Chloe is now a Good Christian Girl, and Good Christian Girls are not supposed to desire any sort of physical intimacy, even something as simple as a kiss.  Imagine if she had actually wanted to be kissed!  Couple that with that brazen bit of hand-holding she initiated earlier in the story, and we’ve got a regular Whore of Babylon on our hands!

  • Anonymous

    Another explanation for Chloe’s odd resistance to the man she is supposedly in love with is that Chloe is now a Good Christian Girl, and Good Christian Girls are not supposed to desire any sort of physical intimacy, even something as simple as a kiss.  Imagine if she had actually wanted to be kissed!  Couple that with that brazen bit of hand-holding she initiated earlier in the story, and we’ve got a regular Whore of Babylon on our hands!

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Now that, I do not get. Buck and Chloe aren’t steeped in RTC culture, and any reasonable person would, I think, not find it out of line for a man and a woman to travel together. The more I think about this, the less plausibly realistic I find the interactions between Chloe and Buck to be when viewed in the context of them not being raised in a particular subculture.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Now that, I do not get. Buck and Chloe aren’t steeped in RTC culture, and any reasonable person would, I think, not find it out of line for a man and a woman to travel together. The more I think about this, the less plausibly realistic I find the interactions between Chloe and Buck to be when viewed in the context of them not being raised in a particular subculture.

  • gocart mozart

    “I told you I would always come for you. Why didn’t you wait for me?”
    Aw Dude.  Try thinking about baseball statistics next time.

  • gocart mozart

    “I told you I would always come for you. Why didn’t you wait for me?”
    Aw Dude.  Try thinking about baseball statistics next time.

  • Anonymous

    I’m still puzzled by this sentence: “He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away.”

    How many reasons are there for brushing someone’s lips with yours?

    “Your lipstick looks wonderful! Mind if it try some?”

    “Oh my god, Chloe! I think you’ve stopped breathing! But don’t worry! I learned mouth-to-mouth resuscitation in the boy scouts! See?”

    “Hey, Chloe, did I ever show you my John Cleese silly walks imitation? Oh, sorry! I didn’t mean to bump into your face.” 

  • Anonymous

    I’m still puzzled by this sentence: “He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away.”

    How many reasons are there for brushing someone’s lips with yours?

    “Your lipstick looks wonderful! Mind if it try some?”

    “Oh my god, Chloe! I think you’ve stopped breathing! But don’t worry! I learned mouth-to-mouth resuscitation in the boy scouts! See?”

    “Hey, Chloe, did I ever show you my John Cleese silly walks imitation? Oh, sorry! I didn’t mean to bump into your face.” 

  • gocart mozart

    “I told you I would always come for you. Why didn’t you wait for me?”
    Aw Dude.  Try thinking about baseball statistics next time.

  • Anonymous

    I’m still puzzled by this sentence: “He had hoped to find a reason to simply brush her lips with his at the end of an evening, say good night, and slip away.”

    How many reasons are there for brushing someone’s lips with yours?

    “Your lipstick looks wonderful! Mind if it try some?”

    “Oh my god, Chloe! I think you’ve stopped breathing! But don’t worry! I learned mouth-to-mouth resuscitation in the boy scouts! See?”

    “Hey, Chloe, did I ever show you my John Cleese silly walks imitation? Oh, sorry! I didn’t mean to bump into your face.” 

  • Anonymous

    Hell you could keep the Tyndale censors happy too. Flush with excitment Buck and Chloe elope at  New Hope and then head to NYC. But that would mean Buck actually enjoyed her company and thought of her as an equal, which is probably even more of a no no than them making out like rabid werewolves. 

  • Anonymous

    Hell you could keep the Tyndale censors happy too. Flush with excitment Buck and Chloe elope at  New Hope and then head to NYC. But that would mean Buck actually enjoyed her company and thought of her as an equal, which is probably even more of a no no than them making out like rabid werewolves. 

  • Anonymous

    Hell you could keep the Tyndale censors happy too. Flush with excitment Buck and Chloe elope at  New Hope and then head to NYC. But that would mean Buck actually enjoyed her company and thought of her as an equal, which is probably even more of a no no than them making out like rabid werewolves. 

  • Lori

    Buck and Chloe aren’t steeped in RTC culture, and any reasonable person
    would, I think, not find it out of line for a man and a woman to travel
    together. The more I think about this, the less plausibly realistic I
    find the interactions between Chloe and Buck to be when viewed in the
    context of them not being raised in a particular subculture.

    This is true and it’s been a problem since the first book. Somehow conversion seems to have gifted Buck, Chloe & Rayford a full working knowledge of and adherence to RTC culture.

    In this instance I don’t think it’s as weird as some of the other examples though. I don’t think it’s exactly a stretch that even fairly new Christians would be aware that it would not be considered acceptable for Chloe to move to NY with Buck before they get married. I read the exchange as being about the move, not about the drive to NY, but even if you’re just talking about the trip I don’t think it’s odd that Chloe would consider that inappropriate. For one thing, she was raised around RTC culture and went to church (because Irene made her go) until she refused, somewhere late in her senior year of high school. She knows the rules. For a while she flatly rejected them, but she’s embraced them now.

  • Lori

    Buck and Chloe aren’t steeped in RTC culture, and any reasonable person
    would, I think, not find it out of line for a man and a woman to travel
    together. The more I think about this, the less plausibly realistic I
    find the interactions between Chloe and Buck to be when viewed in the
    context of them not being raised in a particular subculture.

    This is true and it’s been a problem since the first book. Somehow conversion seems to have gifted Buck, Chloe & Rayford a full working knowledge of and adherence to RTC culture.

    In this instance I don’t think it’s as weird as some of the other examples though. I don’t think it’s exactly a stretch that even fairly new Christians would be aware that it would not be considered acceptable for Chloe to move to NY with Buck before they get married. I read the exchange as being about the move, not about the drive to NY, but even if you’re just talking about the trip I don’t think it’s odd that Chloe would consider that inappropriate. For one thing, she was raised around RTC culture and went to church (because Irene made her go) until she refused, somewhere late in her senior year of high school. She knows the rules. For a while she flatly rejected them, but she’s embraced them now.

  • gocart mozart

    Chloe only kisses after marriage.  She aint no slut.

  • gocart mozart

    Chloe only kisses after marriage.  She aint no slut.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000950306035 J Neo Marvin

    Well, I was looking for a new TF entry I could snark on, but that wasn’t even darkly funny, just sick, joyless and ugly. What a pair of miserable, woman-hating, love-hating degenerates LaHaye and Jenkins are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000950306035 J Neo Marvin

    Well, I was looking for a new TF entry I could snark on, but that wasn’t even darkly funny, just sick, joyless and ugly. What a pair of miserable, woman-hating, love-hating degenerates LaHaye and Jenkins are.

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    According to the authors of Left Behind pretty much everyone not already a Real, True Christian is an evil, degenerately hedonistic Slaanesh cultist. 

    Sadly, they get all of the damnation without any of the fun beforehand.  Remember Fred’s post about how downright wimpy and boring the ”sins” that got Bruce Barnes Left Behind(tm) were?

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    According to the authors of Left Behind pretty much everyone not already a Real, True Christian is an evil, degenerately hedonistic Slaanesh cultist. 

    Sadly, they get all of the damnation without any of the fun beforehand.  Remember Fred’s post about how downright wimpy and boring the ”sins” that got Bruce Barnes Left Behind(tm) were?

  • Randy Owens

    Randy makes a mental note to steal “making out like rabid werewolves” for when Ana Mardoll gets to the next Twilight book.

  • Randy Owens

    Randy makes a mental note to steal “making out like rabid werewolves” for when Ana Mardoll gets to the next Twilight book.

  • http://twitter.com/Rhysdux Rhysdux

    Now I desperately want to do some RightBehind spitefic about Asexual Chloe who doesn’t WANT to be hugged or kissed by anyone–least of all by the guy who has so much Unresolved Sexual Tension with her father.

  • http://twitter.com/Rhysdux Rhysdux

    Now I desperately want to do some RightBehind spitefic about Asexual Chloe who doesn’t WANT to be hugged or kissed by anyone–least of all by the guy who has so much Unresolved Sexual Tension with her father.

  • http://redwoodr.tumblr.com Redwood Rhiadra

    So we get a time jump (“18 months later”) followed by multiple flashbacks?

    I’m pretty sure this is a consequence of Jenkins’ writing “technique.” It was discussed in one of the very early posts – he basically writes X pages, then the next day he reviews the previous days work with some minor editing, and writes X new pages. The book is literally written in order from the first page to the last.

    So of course, when he writes “Eighteen months later” on day 42, and then on day 43 he realizes he needs to cover something that happened during that 18 months, he can’t go back and insert a new scene – that would break the order – so he has to do a flashback.

    Yes, it’s an extremely *amateurish* way to write – heck, even amateurs know they can go back and insert new material, or rearrange scenes to improve the flow. But it does let him crank out the material – he never has to think beyond yesterday’s set of pages and today’s set.

  • http://redwoodr.tumblr.com Redwood Rhiadra

    So we get a time jump (“18 months later”) followed by multiple flashbacks?

    I’m pretty sure this is a consequence of Jenkins’ writing “technique.” It was discussed in one of the very early posts – he basically writes X pages, then the next day he reviews the previous days work with some minor editing, and writes X new pages. The book is literally written in order from the first page to the last.

    So of course, when he writes “Eighteen months later” on day 42, and then on day 43 he realizes he needs to cover something that happened during that 18 months, he can’t go back and insert a new scene – that would break the order – so he has to do a flashback.

    Yes, it’s an extremely *amateurish* way to write – heck, even amateurs know they can go back and insert new material, or rearrange scenes to improve the flow. But it does let him crank out the material – he never has to think beyond yesterday’s set of pages and today’s set.

  • http://redwoodr.tumblr.com Redwood Rhiadra

    But Buck was, up until this point, some kind of suave super-spy /
    international reporter / action hero. I find it hard to believe that
    he’s never kissed anyone before (let alone had sex); he’s just not that
    type of character!!

    Charity, it was actually explicitly stated in the first book that Buck is, in fact, a virgin. Yeah, that doesn’t fit the “suave international reporter” image – but then again, nothing Buck does really fits that image – it’s one of those things Jenkins tells us while showing us the opposite.

    (I actually have seen a decent depiction of a suave, sophisticated reporter who was nevertheless a virgin until he got married – Clark Kent on the Lois and Clark TV show. But then again, he’s the freaking Big Blue Boy Scout!)

  • http://redwoodr.tumblr.com Redwood Rhiadra

    But Buck was, up until this point, some kind of suave super-spy /
    international reporter / action hero. I find it hard to believe that
    he’s never kissed anyone before (let alone had sex); he’s just not that
    type of character!!

    Charity, it was actually explicitly stated in the first book that Buck is, in fact, a virgin. Yeah, that doesn’t fit the “suave international reporter” image – but then again, nothing Buck does really fits that image – it’s one of those things Jenkins tells us while showing us the opposite.

    (I actually have seen a decent depiction of a suave, sophisticated reporter who was nevertheless a virgin until he got married – Clark Kent on the Lois and Clark TV show. But then again, he’s the freaking Big Blue Boy Scout!)

  • Anonymous

    I must confess, it has me thinking of “Rodents…of Unsual Size” now. But seals.

  • Anonymous

    I must confess, it has me thinking of “Rodents…of Unsual Size” now. But seals.

  • Anonymous

    I must confess, it has me thinking of “Rodents…of Unsual Size” now. But seals.

  • Bificommander

     Okay, I think a first kiss can be something you think about, or hope for, but plan it? Kinda creepy. And seeing how his plan apparently involves kiss her despite her resistance to shut her up in her one-upmanship contest of who loves the other more, I hate to think what would have happened if he hadn’t ‘planned’ it. “Okay Chloe, I’ll have my people call your people to set a date for our first kiss.”

  • Bificommander

     Okay, I think a first kiss can be something you think about, or hope for, but plan it? Kinda creepy. And seeing how his plan apparently involves kiss her despite her resistance to shut her up in her one-upmanship contest of who loves the other more, I hate to think what would have happened if he hadn’t ‘planned’ it. “Okay Chloe, I’ll have my people call your people to set a date for our first kiss.”

  • Matri

    Clark Kent

    There is a massively huge difference, though: Clark Kent has actually written as many articles as there are episodes! Buck would be confused by the sight of a typewriter!

  • Matri

    Clark Kent

    There is a massively huge difference, though: Clark Kent has actually written as many articles as there are episodes! Buck would be confused by the sight of a typewriter!

  • Bificommander

    For my money, I think that once Jenkins had set the stage for his two mouthpieces to be near the Anti Christ, he wanted to go ahead to the fun part (The horrible slaughter of unbelievers) and just listed off the remaining gaps in the plot (at least, the gaps he could see) in flashbacks.

    Fred’s idea that Jenkins just couldn’t find a way to make the Anti Christ’s rise to power believable sounds nice, but lets face it: Lack of believability hasn’t exactly slowed Jenkins down in all the bits we do get to see, so why start now.

    I do wonder why book 3 is called Rise of the Anti Christ. He was made dictator of the world at the end of book one, and that position has been cemented during the 18 month period. Exactly where does he have to rise to? 

  • Bificommander

    For my money, I think that once Jenkins had set the stage for his two mouthpieces to be near the Anti Christ, he wanted to go ahead to the fun part (The horrible slaughter of unbelievers) and just listed off the remaining gaps in the plot (at least, the gaps he could see) in flashbacks.

    Fred’s idea that Jenkins just couldn’t find a way to make the Anti Christ’s rise to power believable sounds nice, but lets face it: Lack of believability hasn’t exactly slowed Jenkins down in all the bits we do get to see, so why start now.

    I do wonder why book 3 is called Rise of the Anti Christ. He was made dictator of the world at the end of book one, and that position has been cemented during the 18 month period. Exactly where does he have to rise to? 

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    In a way it reminds me of some of the stuff in the Seduction of the Innocent section of http://www.superdickery.com – “They’re doing this on purpose.  They have to be.  There’s just no way…” come up a LOT.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    In a way it reminds me of some of the stuff in the Seduction of the Innocent section of http://www.superdickery.com – “They’re doing this on purpose.  They have to be.  There’s just no way…” come up a LOT.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    In a way it reminds me of some of the stuff in the Seduction of the Innocent section of http://www.superdickery.com – “They’re doing this on purpose.  They have to be.  There’s just no way…” come up a LOT.

  • Randy Owens

    I do wonder why book 3 is called Rise of the Anti Christ.

    Oh no.  Book 3 must be where the subtext becomes the text, the slash fic is made redundant, and the Anti-Christ does eschatological porn, isn’t it?

  • Randy Owens

    I do wonder why book 3 is called Rise of the Anti Christ.

    Oh no.  Book 3 must be where the subtext becomes the text, the slash fic is made redundant, and the Anti-Christ does eschatological porn, isn’t it?

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    That might be simultaneously the most hilarious and disturbing thing I’ve read all month.  “They just wanted a new ball” is like wrapping it up with a big beautiful bow… with a skull in the center >.>

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    That might be simultaneously the most hilarious and disturbing thing I’ve read all month.  “They just wanted a new ball” is like wrapping it up with a big beautiful bow… with a skull in the center >.>

  • http://twitter.com/Rhysdux Rhysdux

    “But then again, he’s the freaking Big Blue Boy Scout!” 

    Not to mention, Redwood Rhiadra, Superman has to deal with the whole Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex issue.

  • http://twitter.com/Rhysdux Rhysdux

    “But then again, he’s the freaking Big Blue Boy Scout!” 

    Not to mention, Redwood Rhiadra, Superman has to deal with the whole Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex issue.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Hehe, you said eschatological. /beavisandbutthead

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Hehe, you said eschatological. /beavisandbutthead

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Okay, commenting on the post itself now…

    Memories.  No seriously, Buck’s behavior here reminds me of all the stupidity I behaved with in my first real relationship.

    The difference of course is that Buck is 31.  I was 17.  I was also raised in the religious right frame of thinking* – meaning what little I learned of relationships tended to be about how the man is head of the household and thus it’s his duty to provide.  I was raised, for instance, to always, always pay for everything, holds the door, and generally treats the woman like a delicate little flower.**

    I think this illustrates Buck’s maturity level pretty well actually – Cameron “Buck” Williams is basically an emotionally stunted Religious Right raised teenager.  Or in other words an immature domineering jackass who thinks he’s being sweet.

    And what hacks me off about this bit not in terms of his attitude (because sadly there are people who never really get beyond being 17 year olds) – but what hacks me off is that this could have been played into an actual character flaw; the kind of thing that a good writer in a good set of books would have used to give Mr. Call-Me-Buck some serious character development.

    Maybe Chloe would leave him.  That could prompt a ton of possible changes in his character – maybe he sees what a douchebag he’s been all along and decides to turn it around and try to win Chloe back in a non-creeptacular fashion.  Or maybe that’s not possible and at least he goes forward knowing what not to do next time.

    Or, if you wanted to take him on a longer, arguably darker (and sadly also probably more true to reality in a lot of cases), he could become more openly misogynistic, bitter and spiteful.  Maybe he really bottoms out for awhile and has to contend with getting older and the fact that his awesome job brings him zero comfort as the world comes to a close, and that prompts self reflection.  Maybe he finds new romance or maybe he doesn’t, but at least there’s character development going on.

    There are arguably a dozen places a good story could go simply by taking Buck William’s behavior and applying it to a vaguely realistic relationship wherein the woman isn’t fond of being treated like well… a child.

    But this isn’t a good story, as we are so often reminded, so… yeah.  We get this instead.

    *headdesk*

    *Though thank goodness outside the Gothard group.  I’ve long known about
    the courtship thing but I think I prefer the usual massive silence about
    anything resembling sex or relationships compared to that bullshit.  Given the next footnote that’s saying something.

    **Mein gott what a stupid, stupid, STUPID thing to teach a kid.  And the most infuriating part (And I think this is a big part of ‘nice guy syndrome’), is that because you *think* you’re doing all these nice things… when inevitably you get dumped for being a domineering jackass, you’re utterly baffled.  The only reason I ever got my head out of my ass was a looooot of self introspection and talking to my best friend (who is female) online – never really even about that, just it’s kind of a revolution in thinking to start thinking of women as *gasp* other people!  Not delicate little flowers that must be guarded and protected, but just plain old ordinary people.

    Sorry if I seem a little bothered about a rather old relationship; but the realization of why it soured rather unnaturally has left me particularly annoyed with what little instruction I got in that arena.  (I has an angry.)

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Okay, commenting on the post itself now…

    Memories.  No seriously, Buck’s behavior here reminds me of all the stupidity I behaved with in my first real relationship.

    The difference of course is that Buck is 31.  I was 17.  I was also raised in the religious right frame of thinking* – meaning what little I learned of relationships tended to be about how the man is head of the household and thus it’s his duty to provide.  I was raised, for instance, to always, always pay for everything, holds the door, and generally treats the woman like a delicate little flower.**

    I think this illustrates Buck’s maturity level pretty well actually – Cameron “Buck” Williams is basically an emotionally stunted Religious Right raised teenager.  Or in other words an immature domineering jackass who thinks he’s being sweet.

    And what hacks me off about this bit not in terms of his attitude (because sadly there are people who never really get beyond being 17 year olds) – but what hacks me off is that this could have been played into an actual character flaw; the kind of thing that a good writer in a good set of books would have used to give Mr. Call-Me-Buck some serious character development.

    Maybe Chloe would leave him.  That could prompt a ton of possible changes in his character – maybe he sees what a douchebag he’s been all along and decides to turn it around and try to win Chloe back in a non-creeptacular fashion.  Or maybe that’s not possible and at least he goes forward knowing what not to do next time.

    Or, if you wanted to take him on a longer, arguably darker (and sadly also probably more true to reality in a lot of cases), he could become more openly misogynistic, bitter and spiteful.  Maybe he really bottoms out for awhile and has to contend with getting older and the fact that his awesome job brings him zero comfort as the world comes to a close, and that prompts self reflection.  Maybe he finds new romance or maybe he doesn’t, but at least there’s character development going on.

    There are arguably a dozen places a good story could go simply by taking Buck William’s behavior and applying it to a vaguely realistic relationship wherein the woman isn’t fond of being treated like well… a child.

    But this isn’t a good story, as we are so often reminded, so… yeah.  We get this instead.

    *headdesk*

    *Though thank goodness outside the Gothard group.  I’ve long known about
    the courtship thing but I think I prefer the usual massive silence about
    anything resembling sex or relationships compared to that bullshit.  Given the next footnote that’s saying something.

    **Mein gott what a stupid, stupid, STUPID thing to teach a kid.  And the most infuriating part (And I think this is a big part of ‘nice guy syndrome’), is that because you *think* you’re doing all these nice things… when inevitably you get dumped for being a domineering jackass, you’re utterly baffled.  The only reason I ever got my head out of my ass was a looooot of self introspection and talking to my best friend (who is female) online – never really even about that, just it’s kind of a revolution in thinking to start thinking of women as *gasp* other people!  Not delicate little flowers that must be guarded and protected, but just plain old ordinary people.

    Sorry if I seem a little bothered about a rather old relationship; but the realization of why it soured rather unnaturally has left me particularly annoyed with what little instruction I got in that arena.  (I has an angry.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    I really wish I hadn’t read this while eating.

  • Grey Seer

     Oh, for the love of cute little bunny rabbits…

     Buck. I’m a straight man, so I can’t claim to be amazingly familiar with the signs, but all the same even I can tell what your problem is here. The next time you see Rayford, just KISS HIM.

     Stop torturing yourself over this. Stop worrying about what your God might do to you for it – he apparently knows anyway, so it’s irrelevent. And for both your sakes, stop dragging Chloe through this sick dance of a courtship so you can justify being around Ray.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    I really wish I hadn’t read this while eating.

  • Grey Seer

     Oh, for the love of cute little bunny rabbits…

     Buck. I’m a straight man, so I can’t claim to be amazingly familiar with the signs, but all the same even I can tell what your problem is here. The next time you see Rayford, just KISS HIM.

     Stop torturing yourself over this. Stop worrying about what your God might do to you for it – he apparently knows anyway, so it’s irrelevent. And for both your sakes, stop dragging Chloe through this sick dance of a courtship so you can justify being around Ray.

  • Fraser

    Yes, that line really leaped out at me too.

  • Fraser

    Yes, that line really leaped out at me too.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    It actually took me a minute to see what Fred was getting at, then it hit me, and I had ro really work at not busting out my full Lewis Skolnick laugh.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    It actually took me a minute to see what Fred was getting at, then it hit me, and I had to really work at not busting out my full Lewis Skolnick laugh.

  • Fraser

    I believe it’s been mentioned before that he’s still a virgin. Which, as Fred notes, would have more to do with not offending the audience than logic.

  • Fraser

    I believe it’s been mentioned before that he’s still a virgin. Which, as Fred notes, would have more to do with not offending the audience than logic.

  • Fraser

    Not as big an issue as Larry Niven thought. A red sun lamp would leave him perfectly human. And even without it, he can deliver cunnilingua without putting anyone at risk.
    I’m not reminded of Robert Mayer’s Superfolks, and a scene where the Superman analog remembers getting to second base. It’s not erotic, but it’s intense and beautiful.

  • Fraser

    Not as big an issue as Larry Niven thought. A red sun lamp would leave him perfectly human. And even without it, he can deliver cunnilingua without putting anyone at risk.
    I’m not reminded of Robert Mayer’s Superfolks, and a scene where the Superman analog remembers getting to second base. It’s not erotic, but it’s intense and beautiful.

  • chris the cynic

    I could almost buy that as good characterization if Buck had been established as someone who was really nervous, careful, and neurotic. If he was the kind of awkward savant-type character [...] [Buck]‘s just not that type of character!!

    I’ve felt that an extremely neurotic Buck makes sense for quite a while now.  It doesn’t cover all of what he does (an attempt to justify his dialog in the post-”Flowers in the Trash” scene finally resulted in me concluding that an actual human character would break down and scream at Jenkins, “Stop making me say this shit!”) but if you don’t get bogged down in the specifics and instead go for overview I think there is a definite case to be made that he is extremely insecure and inexperienced.
    While I was thinking about this largely in terms of relationships, but he also appears to be unaware how various other things work (like the fact that it’s probably not necessary to wash your clothes in the sink at the hotel) which could probably be chalked up to being completely uncomfortable asking anyone.

    We haven’t had a lot of chance to view how his reporting works but what we have seen involves one or more of the following:
    1 Be assigned to interview a personal friend.
    2 Be standing somewhere when something important happens (describe it badly.)
    3 Have a paranoid antisemite do the actual digging.
    4 Cover up whatever he discovers.
    5 Turn back and give up in the face of crowds.

    None of that implies that he’s very experienced with people, and given that most other evidence we have seems to indicate that he isn’t* I’m willing to accept that Bucky is nervous and neurotic, though definitely not careful.

    -

    * “How do I make the evil overlord not kill me?  What could I possibly do to to make him not want to kill me?  I know, I’ll be a total jerk to him.”  Yeah Buck, that’s exactly how you get people keep you alive, demonstrate that you’re not just a threat but an irritating asshole as well, works every time.

    I know that whenever I want to get on someone’s good side I go about it by being petulant.

  • http://stealingcommas.blogspot.com/ chris the cynic

    I could almost buy that as good characterization if Buck had been established as someone who was really nervous, careful, and neurotic. If he was the kind of awkward savant-type character [...] [Buck]‘s just not that type of character!!

    I’ve felt that an extremely neurotic Buck makes sense for quite a while now.  It doesn’t cover all of what he does (an attempt to justify his dialog in the post-”Flowers in the Trash” scene finally resulted in me concluding that an actual human character would break down and scream at Jenkins, “Stop making me say this shit!”) but if you don’t get bogged down in the specifics and instead go for overview I think there is a definite case to be made that he is extremely insecure and inexperienced.
    While I was thinking about this largely in terms of relationships, but he also appears to be unaware how various other things work (like the fact that it’s probably not necessary to wash your clothes in the sink at the hotel) which could probably be chalked up to being completely uncomfortable asking anyone.

    We haven’t had a lot of chance to view how his reporting works but what we have seen involves one or more of the following:
    1 Be assigned to interview a personal friend.
    2 Be standing somewhere when something important happens (describe it badly.)
    3 Have a paranoid antisemite do the actual digging.
    4 Cover up whatever he discovers.
    5 Turn back and give up in the face of crowds.

    None of that implies that he’s very experienced with people, and given that most other evidence we have seems to indicate that he isn’t* I’m willing to accept that Bucky is nervous and neurotic, though definitely not careful.

    -

    * “How do I make the evil overlord not kill me?  What could I possibly do to to make him not want to kill me?  I know, I’ll be a total jerk to him.”  Yeah Buck, that’s exactly how you get people keep you alive, demonstrate that you’re not just a threat but an irritating asshole as well, works every time.

    I know that whenever I want to get on someone’s good side I go about it by being petulant.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    As much as I disapproved of the reintroduction of the Clark Kent Superboy in the DCU (before the “New 52,” at any rate), I have to say that I really enjoyed some of what Levitz did in Adventure Comics in (very lightly) addressing young Clark’s sexuality.
    In particular, I liked that he made use of the Smallville concept of his heat vision being triggered by his libido (which, in and of itself, I wasn’t much of a fan of), especially when it dovetailed with the notion of every girl in the Legion of Super-Heroes having a very aggressive crush on the Boy of Steel, as it led to scenes like:

    Superboy walks into Legion HQ; Duo Damsel approaches him from either side and simultaneously kisses him on each cheek.  End result:  scorched wall.

    Superboy has a bucket list of things he’s always wanted to do, but couldn’t when not among super-folk, so the Legion brings him to the 31st Century to give him the chance.  It was mostly innocent stuff – play baseball without holding back, etc. – but one item on the list was “Kiss a girl with my eyes open.”  Most of the girls are ready to volunteer, but only Phantom Girl – who can turn intangible – is able to safely execute the maneuver.  (More scorching of Legion HQ results.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    As much as I disapproved of the reintroduction of the Clark Kent Superboy in the DCU (before the “New 52,” at any rate), I have to say that I really enjoyed some of what Levitz did in Adventure Comics in (very lightly) addressing young Clark’s sexuality.
    In particular, I liked that he made use of the Smallville concept of his heat vision being triggered by his libido (which, in and of itself, I wasn’t much of a fan of), especially when it dovetailed with the notion of every girl in the Legion of Super-Heroes having a very aggressive crush on the Boy of Steel, as it led to scenes like:

    Superboy walks into Legion HQ; Duo Damsel approaches him from either side and simultaneously kisses him on each cheek.  End result:  scorched wall.

    Superboy has a bucket list of things he’s always wanted to do, but couldn’t when not among super-folk, so the Legion brings him to the 31st Century to give him the chance.  It was mostly innocent stuff – play baseball without holding back, etc. – but one item on the list was “Kiss a girl with my eyes open.”  Most of the girls are ready to volunteer, but only Phantom Girl – who can turn intangible – is able to safely execute the maneuver.  (More scorching of Legion HQ results.)

  • Fraser

    Nice.

  • Fraser

    Nice.

  • Tonio

    When was the Clark Kent Superboy reintroduced? The last Superboy I remember was the clone Connor Kent.

    every girl in the Legion of Super-Heroes having a very aggressive crush on the Boy of Steel

    Smallville did some of that as well, and if the traditional nerdy Clark was sublimated adolescent revenge, this went way in the opposite direction into a Gary Stu fantasy.

  • Tonio

    When was the Clark Kent Superboy reintroduced? The last Superboy I remember was the clone Connor Kent.

    every girl in the Legion of Super-Heroes having a very aggressive crush on the Boy of Steel

    Smallville did some of that as well, and if the traditional nerdy Clark was sublimated adolescent revenge, this went way in the opposite direction into a Gary Stu fantasy.

  • Anonymous

     “I wish we could change that last word one more time,” Buck said. “To Weakly.”

    And that’s just the kind of rapier-sharp wit we’d expect from the GIRAT. Next thing you know he’ll be calling Nicky, “Mr. Car-pain-thia”, behind his back. Score one for the God Squad!

    I’m not even touching the Chloe stuff. Those commands at the end are all kinds of creepy and upsetting. I’d half expect him to take her over his knee and ‘discipline’ her in the totally nonsexual and domineering fatherly way. And the drive-by kiss plan…ick. Heaven forbid you actually have to, you know, DEAL with the consequences of your actions. Everyone else has said it better.

  • Anonymous

     “I wish we could change that last word one more time,” Buck said. “To Weakly.”

    And that’s just the kind of rapier-sharp wit we’d expect from the GIRAT. Next thing you know he’ll be calling Nicky, “Mr. Car-pain-thia”, behind his back. Score one for the God Squad!

    I’m not even touching the Chloe stuff. Those commands at the end are all kinds of creepy and upsetting. I’d half expect him to take her over his knee and ‘discipline’ her in the totally nonsexual and domineering fatherly way. And the drive-by kiss plan…ick. Heaven forbid you actually have to, you know, DEAL with the consequences of your actions. Everyone else has said it better.

  • Kooshmeister

    It’s Buck, why would she, except out of some thoroughly misguided sense of warped obligation?

  • Kooshmeister

    It’s Buck, why would she, except out of some thoroughly misguided sense of warped obligation?

  • Lonespark

    Awwwww.

  • Lonespark

    Awwwww.

  • Lonespark

    Yes.
    Once in high school I was home sick and my boyfriend told me he had a hard time getting through the day.  There’s “I miss you,” and then there’s creepy and pathetic.  Oy.

  • Lonespark

    Yes.
    Once in high school I was home sick and my boyfriend told me he had a hard time getting through the day.  There’s “I miss you,” and then there’s creepy and pathetic.  Oy.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    Within the last few years.  It was kind of hinted at, then made more explicit in the Geoff Johns “Secret Origin” mini-series.  While he wore the costume, the existence of Superboy wasn’t really publicly known.  He was kind of an urban – well, rural, I suppose – legend in Smallville.  The “Smallville Superboy” was kind of like the Jersey Devil or some similar concept where a town is known for some mysterious event/creature/whatever that isn’t actually known to officially exist.
    He did good deeds in secret around Smallville.  It seems that his public adventures were confined to his visits to the 31st Century.  Kind of following the model of that Legion cartoon from a few years back.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    Within the last few years.  It was kind of hinted at, then made more explicit in the Geoff Johns “Secret Origin” mini-series.  While he wore the costume, the existence of Superboy wasn’t really publicly known.  He was kind of an urban – well, rural, I suppose – legend in Smallville.  The “Smallville Superboy” was kind of like the Jersey Devil or some similar concept where a town is known for some mysterious event/creature/whatever that isn’t actually known to officially exist.
    He did good deeds in secret around Smallville.  It seems that his public adventures were confined to his visits to the 31st Century.  Kind of following the model of that Legion cartoon from a few years back.

  • Lonespark

    Somd of it is good, yes.  I wouldn’t say enjoyable, but those are the characters available. Although the metafolk are more fun…

  • Lonespark

    Somd of it is good, yes.  I wouldn’t say enjoyable, but those are the characters available. Although the metafolk are more fun…

  • Lonespark

    Right, I was thinking of that, too.  He may not really be able to have “casual” relations.  And he kissed other people, right?

  • Lonespark

    Right, I was thinking of that, too.  He may not really be able to have “casual” relations.  And he kissed other people, right?

  • Lonespark

    Some of the dialogue reminds me of beautiful, moving stories of d/s courtship, where someone who isn’t able to believe anything good about themself on their own is able to feel beautiful and worthy of love…

    But that is not what is happening here.  Boo.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    caffinated_lemur: Oh, yeah, Buck’s “scintillating wordplay”! Anyone remember “Fail, Carpathia”? Boy howdy, did I wince when I read that one. :-|

    (Believe me, it’s not anywhere near as funny as Jenkins would like us to believe)

  • Lonespark

    Some of the dialogue reminds me of beautiful, moving stories of d/s courtship, where someone who isn’t able to believe anything good about themself on their own is able to feel beautiful and worthy of love…

    But that is not what is happening here.  Boo.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    caffinated_lemur: Oh, yeah, Buck’s “scintillating wordplay”! Anyone remember “Fail, Carpathia”? Boy howdy, did I wince when I read that one. :-|

    (Believe me, it’s not anywhere near as funny as Jenkins would like us to believe)

  • Anonymous

    BOOM.  Two Larry Niven references in one thread!

  • Anonymous

    BOOM.  Two Larry Niven references in one thread!

  • http://flickr.com/photos/sedary_raymaker/ Naked Bunny with a Whip

    The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

    *frowns and looks at the URL again*

    *reads some comments*

    *looks at the URL again, squinting*

    ….Ooooh!

    Slow bunny is slow.

  • http://flickr.com/photos/sedary_raymaker/ Naked Bunny with a Whip

    The URL for Gothard’s website actually isn’t case-sensitive, which I find far funnier than I probably should.

    *frowns and looks at the URL again*

    *reads some comments*

    *looks at the URL again, squinting*

    ….Ooooh!

    Slow bunny is slow.

  • Anonymous

    Wow, that was really frustrating to read, especially Chloe!  I just wanted to scream “If you want to marry him, tell him!”  Even if she’s so “traditional” that she would never propose to a man, she could have at least told him straight up that she wanted him to propose.  And they’re both really bad about just having a freaking honest conversation.  If they can’t even manage to be open to each other, then they should not be getting married, even if it is just a few years’ commitment.

  • Anonymous

    Wow, that was really frustrating to read, especially Chloe!  I just wanted to scream “If you want to marry him, tell him!”  Even if she’s so “traditional” that she would never propose to a man, she could have at least told him straight up that she wanted him to propose.  And they’re both really bad about just having a freaking honest conversation.  If they can’t even manage to be open to each other, then they should not be getting married, even if it is just a few years’ commitment.

  • Grey Seer

    Incidently, I will step forwards here in defence of relationships which are closer to battles for control. I myself am currently involved with a charmingly psychotic lady with plans for world domination, and I can attest to the fact that it is rather fun. Six months in and I’m still not sure if we’re dating or waging war.

     Not that I’m entirely convinced that either Buck or Chloe are quite the sort…

  • Grey Seer

    Incidently, I will step forwards here in defence of relationships which are closer to battles for control. I myself am currently involved with a charmingly psychotic lady with plans for world domination, and I can attest to the fact that it is rather fun. Six months in and I’m still not sure if we’re dating or waging war.

     Not that I’m entirely convinced that either Buck or Chloe are quite the sort…

  • Caravelle

    Okay, tell me, all you people who are knowledgeable about love and all that jazz : is this kind of insecurity about whether one loves the other more than they love one common ?

    I might not be remembering all the love scenes I’ve read over the years well enough, but it seems to me this kind of thing usually comes up when one or both characters have been built up as particularly insecure in the past. Does it really happen with two “normally” psychologically-balanced individuals ? (granted, the question of whether it happens in literature is very different from whether it happens in real life, but this board also contains many who are fans of the romance genre so I figure either way I’ll get cogent responses).

    It’s funny, I used to be extremely blase about things like “taste” and “objective quality” in art in general and literature in particular, but I’m realizing I’m less and less tolerant of things I used to enjoy but have been seeing millions of times by now and now strike me as unrealistic and cliched. For the record, that’s one thing you could tell young people who roll their eyes and attribute all this “taste” and “quality” stuff to plain elitism : a lot of it is limited to those who have a deep knowledge of the field because only those who have this deep knowledge can notice things that come again and again and AGAIN and grow tired of them. And have enough life experience to realize those things also happen to be unrealistic.

    This does imply that something can feel like “low quality” to someone with a deep knowledge of the field while being fresh and new and exciting to someone that doesn’t. Yes, that’s me still rolling my eyes a little.

  • Caravelle

    Okay, tell me, all you people who are knowledgeable about love and all that jazz : is this kind of insecurity about whether one loves the other more than they love one common ?

    I might not be remembering all the love scenes I’ve read over the years well enough, but it seems to me this kind of thing usually comes up when one or both characters have been built up as particularly insecure in the past. Does it really happen with two “normally” psychologically-balanced individuals ? (granted, the question of whether it happens in literature is very different from whether it happens in real life, but this board also contains many who are fans of the romance genre so I figure either way I’ll get cogent responses).

    It’s funny, I used to be extremely blase about things like “taste” and “objective quality” in art in general and literature in particular, but I’m realizing I’m less and less tolerant of things I used to enjoy but have been seeing millions of times by now and now strike me as unrealistic and cliched. For the record, that’s one thing you could tell young people who roll their eyes and attribute all this “taste” and “quality” stuff to plain elitism : a lot of it is limited to those who have a deep knowledge of the field because only those who have this deep knowledge can notice things that come again and again and AGAIN and grow tired of them. And have enough life experience to realize those things also happen to be unrealistic.

    This does imply that something can feel like “low quality” to someone with a deep knowledge of the field while being fresh and new and exciting to someone that doesn’t. Yes, that’s me still rolling my eyes a little.

  • Lori

     Okay, tell me, all you people who are knowledgeable about love and all that jazz : is this kind of insecurity about whether one loves the other more than they love one common ? 

    It happens a lot, but it’s not a particularly good sign about the health of the relationship. 

    I might not be remembering all the love scenes I’ve read over the years well enough, but it seems to me this kind of thing usually comes up when one or both characters have been built up as particularly insecure in the past. Does it really happen with two “normally” psychologically-balanced individuals ? (granted, the question of whether it happens in literature is very different from whether it happens in real life, but this board also contains many who are fans of the romance genre so I figure either way I’ll get cogent responses).  

    I don’t recall seeing is addressed directly in many romance novels. The times I have seen it, it was in the context of the character having had some bad experience in the past that  left him/her with major trust issues and fears about being vulnerable

  • Lori

     Okay, tell me, all you people who are knowledgeable about love and all that jazz : is this kind of insecurity about whether one loves the other more than they love one common ? 

    It happens a lot, but it’s not a particularly good sign about the health of the relationship. 

    I might not be remembering all the love scenes I’ve read over the years well enough, but it seems to me this kind of thing usually comes up when one or both characters have been built up as particularly insecure in the past. Does it really happen with two “normally” psychologically-balanced individuals ? (granted, the question of whether it happens in literature is very different from whether it happens in real life, but this board also contains many who are fans of the romance genre so I figure either way I’ll get cogent responses).  

    I don’t recall seeing is addressed directly in many romance novels. The times I have seen it, it was in the context of the character having had some bad experience in the past that  left him/her with major trust issues and fears about being vulnerable

  • Tonio

    Thanks for the explanation. I wasn’t sure if Secret Origins was intended as a canonical retcon or simply as Johns’ own version of the origin. After reading Birthright and Straczyinski’s Earth One and Secret Origins, I’ve almost given up trying to figure out if DC even has an official canonical version of Kal-El anymore.

    But one similarity in all three is that they restored the concept of Clark being a nerdy bumbler, or at least unremarkable. This could be either from tradition, or from a distaste for what John Byrne did with the character. Smallville also took that approach in its last season, but that probably came from the Reeve films like some of the other elements on the show.

  • Tonio

    Thanks for the explanation. I wasn’t sure if Secret Origins was intended as a canonical retcon or simply as Johns’ own version of the origin. After reading Birthright and Straczyinski’s Earth One and Secret Origins, I’ve almost given up trying to figure out if DC even has an official canonical version of Kal-El anymore.

    But one similarity in all three is that they restored the concept of Clark being a nerdy bumbler, or at least unremarkable. This could be either from tradition, or from a distaste for what John Byrne did with the character. Smallville also took that approach in its last season, but that probably came from the Reeve films like some of the other elements on the show.

  • chris the cynic

    I just wanted to scream “If you want to marry him, tell him!”
    I feel like that would have solved so much that is wrong in the relationship we see.  It might very well have caused Buck to leave, but in that case that would be for the best.  If it didn’t it would at least force him to reevaluate the relationship because there he was with his twisted power games surround the whole thing and she just cut through all the bullshit.  (Gordian not destroyed, Chloe went on to conquer the known world but unfortunately her life was cut tragically short after an excursion in India, the cause of death could not be determined with certainty, but authorities believe it may have been the Apocalypse.)

    Anyway, if Chloe isn’t going to play those games, that would mean Buck would also have to act differently as well.

  • http://stealingcommas.blogspot.com/ chris the cynic

    I just wanted to scream “If you want to marry him, tell him!”

    I feel like that would have solved so much that is wrong in the relationship we see.  It might very well have caused Buck to leave, but in that case that would be for the best.  If it didn’t it would at least force him to reevaluate the relationship because there he was with his twisted power games surround the whole thing and she just cut through all the bullshit.  (Gordian not destroyed, Chloe went on to conquer the known world but unfortunately her life was cut tragically short after an excursion in India, the cause of death could not be determined with certainty, but authorities believe it may have been the Apocalypse.)

    Anyway, if Chloe isn’t going to play those games, that would mean Buck would also have to act differently as well.

  • Anonymous

    Oh, and that conversation between Chloe and her dad sounds like an awkward conversation that a father might have with his 13 year-old daughter after she comes home from her first middle school formal dance (if you take out the marriage stuff).  It’s so creepy that Chloe is so childlike, and that’s considered a good thing.

  • Anonymous

    Oh, and that conversation between Chloe and her dad sounds like an awkward conversation that a father might have with his 13 year-old daughter after she comes home from her first middle school formal dance (if you take out the marriage stuff).  It’s so creepy that Chloe is so childlike, and that’s considered a good thing.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    Yeah, I don’t think they do have one at this point, especially now with the full line reboot of the “New 52.”
    It seems that Clark Kent Superboy is gone again – in Action #1 (the new one), which is about Superman in his earliest days, he’s much more like the original Golden Age version -  but it’s always possible that he could be retconned back in.
    In any case, there is a lot of hate out there for the Byrne Era among the decision-makers, especially from Johns.
    Johns seems to have a vision of Superman that is part “Silver Age…with a modern twist!(tm)” and complete and utter Donner worship (Johns did work for Donner, after all).
    (Secret Origins also made it abundantly clear that Johns has a special hatred for Lois.  And, of course, they’ve managed to eliminate the Lois and Clark marriage, which has clearly been a goal of the people in charge at DC, who I can only assume watched the whole “One More Day” thing at Marvel very carefully to see how it unfolded.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    Yeah, I don’t think they do have one at this point, especially now with the full line reboot of the “New 52.”
    It seems that Clark Kent Superboy is gone again – in Action #1 (the new one), which is about Superman in his earliest days, he’s much more like the original Golden Age version -  but it’s always possible that he could be retconned back in.
    In any case, there is a lot of hate out there for the Byrne Era among the decision-makers, especially from Johns.
    Johns seems to have a vision of Superman that is part “Silver Age…with a modern twist!(tm)” and complete and utter Donner worship (Johns did work for Donner, after all).
    (Secret Origins also made it abundantly clear that Johns has a special hatred for Lois.  And, of course, they’ve managed to eliminate the Lois and Clark marriage, which has clearly been a goal of the people in charge at DC, who I can only assume watched the whole “One More Day” thing at Marvel very carefully to see how it unfolded.)

  • Kukulkan
    That last night in Chicago, he and Chloe were in the apartment packing the last of his personal things. His plan was to leave by 9 o’clock that night and drive all the way to New York City in one marathon stretch.

    I suppose we should be grateful, considering all we’ve read in the previous 800+ pages about cab-rides and airports, that we’re not given a more detailed description of Buck’s planned route. But finally we get to “the kissing parts.”

    What?! We skip over the details of Buck’s planned route?!!

    I used to work in logistics and I only read this stuff for the itinerary porn. Now you’re telling me that Jenkins is skipping over it. Just a discreet mention and a fade out. No graphic detail. No discussion of alternate routes and contingency plans. Just passed over. In favour of kissing.

    Oh, well. There go my plans to bring up Tribulation Force at the next Literary Logistics book night. I guess we’re just have to go back to discussing the train schedules in Bram Stocker’s Dracula. Again.

    Bummer.

    And don’t try to console me with talk about Buck’s planning of his first kiss. It’s not the same.
     

  • Tonio

    I’ve seen a few movies recently that use this premise: emotionally scarred boy becomes a man focused on success and power at the expense of family and and love, and the plot is how he finds his soul again. Buck in the LB series resembles such a character, but only superficially. He finds Jesus but his personality and motivations are the same, and these are presented as good qualities. Imagine what Ellanjay would do with a story like Citizen Kane or The Godfather, which in the generic sense are people who gain the whole world at the expense of their souls. Buck would overthrow Nicolae and take power as a benevolent despot, and the authors wouldn’t grasp that the only real change would be the name on the office door.

  • Kukulkan
    That last night in Chicago, he and Chloe were in the apartment packing the last of his personal things. His plan was to leave by 9 o’clock that night and drive all the way to New York City in one marathon stretch.

    I suppose we should be grateful, considering all we’ve read in the previous 800+ pages about cab-rides and airports, that we’re not given a more detailed description of Buck’s planned route. But finally we get to “the kissing parts.”

    What?! We skip over the details of Buck’s planned route?!!

    I used to work in logistics and I only read this stuff for the itinerary porn. Now you’re telling me that Jenkins is skipping over it. Just a discreet mention and a fade out. No graphic detail. No discussion of alternate routes and contingency plans. Just passed over. In favour of kissing.

    Oh, well. There go my plans to bring up Tribulation Force at the next Literary Logistics book night. I guess we’re just have to go back to discussing the train schedules in Bram Stocker’s Dracula. Again.

    Bummer.

    And don’t try to console me with talk about Buck’s planning of his first kiss. It’s not the same.
     

  • Tonio

    I’ve seen a few movies recently that use this premise: emotionally scarred boy becomes a man focused on success and power at the expense of family and and love, and the plot is how he finds his soul again. Buck in the LB series resembles such a character, but only superficially. He finds Jesus but his personality and motivations are the same, and these are presented as good qualities. Imagine what Ellanjay would do with a story like Citizen Kane or The Godfather, which in the generic sense are people who gain the whole world at the expense of their souls. Buck would overthrow Nicolae and take power as a benevolent despot, and the authors wouldn’t grasp that the only real change would be the name on the office door.

  • Kukulkan

    Vermic wrote:

    A frozen moment ticked by.  Then the barking began, first from the shape before him, and quickly answered by a dozen more from every direction.  Buck dropped his bag and ran, blinded by panic.  His world was a whirl of speed and terror and the hellish applause of flippers on pavement.

    I just have to say I love the phrase “hellish applause of flippers on pavement” Using applause that way is brilliant. Just brilliant.

    Well done, sir. Well done.
     

  • Kukulkan

    Vermic wrote:

    A frozen moment ticked by.  Then the barking began, first from the shape before him, and quickly answered by a dozen more from every direction.  Buck dropped his bag and ran, blinded by panic.  His world was a whirl of speed and terror and the hellish applause of flippers on pavement.

    I just have to say I love the phrase “hellish applause of flippers on pavement” Using applause that way is brilliant. Just brilliant.

    Well done, sir. Well done.
     

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Itinerary porn.  Wow.  (T_T) *cracking the hell up*

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Itinerary porn.  Wow.  (T_T) *cracking the hell up*

  • Tonio

    In my experience, much of the Lois-bashing comes from He Man Woman Haters straight out of middle school. They seem to crave a Super-Batman or even a Super-Punisher, not realizing or not caring that both characters are motivated by loss and pain. Mark Waid seems to understand that Lois is essential in keeping Clark connected to humanity. And I admire Jeph Loeb’s ability to contrast Clark with Bruce.

    Secret Origins also made it abundantly clear that Johns has a special hatred for Lois.

    At first I thought that Johns had the same problem that Lucas had with Princess Leia, meaning sexist assumptions about confidence and assertiveness in women.

  • Tonio

    In my experience, much of the Lois-bashing comes from He Man Woman Haters straight out of middle school. They seem to crave a Super-Batman or even a Super-Punisher, not realizing or not caring that both characters are motivated by loss and pain. Mark Waid seems to understand that Lois is essential in keeping Clark connected to humanity. And I admire Jeph Loeb’s ability to contrast Clark with Bruce.

    Secret Origins also made it abundantly clear that Johns has a special hatred for Lois.

    At first I thought that Johns had the same problem that Lucas had with Princess Leia, meaning sexist assumptions about confidence and assertiveness in women.

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    I guess we’re just have to go back to discussing the train schedules in Bram Stocker’s Dracula. Again.

    Surely you could bring in Sherlock Holmes, or Agatha Christie’s ABC Murders?

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    I guess we’re just have to go back to discussing the train schedules in Bram Stocker’s Dracula. Again.

    Surely you could bring in Sherlock Holmes, or Agatha Christie’s ABC Murders?

  • Anonymous

    I take it you’ve never seen a leopard seal. The small ones are 8ft. long. The large ones are 12.

    That said, Vermic’s hilarious story makes me think of the only seals I have much direct experience with: harbour seals. They’re about 5-6ft long, weigh a few hundred pounds, and are roughly as threatening on land as a lethargic rabbit*.

    I mean, I’ve petted them while out of the water, and if they don’t want you to then they’ll blow a raspberry at you, roll on their side, and then wave their teeny-tiny (human-hand-sized, roughly) flippers at you. It’s…not the most frightening gesture ever. :P If you really annoy them, then they might try to nip you, but for all they’re flexible they don’t have the greatest reach.

    So, really, your average five-year-old could hold their own against one on land.

    Not that that in any way makes it less believable that they’d take down Cameron. :P

    *He says, despite having also owned rabbits and having rabbit-sat an animal that took on Labradors in fights and routinely won. Destroyed a broom in under 3 seconds, and could tear through gardening gloves in about as long…Assume I mean the more…peaceful lagomorphs. :P

  • Anonymous

    I take it you’ve never seen a leopard seal. The small ones are 8ft. long. The large ones are 12.

    That said, Vermic’s hilarious story makes me think of the only seals I have much direct experience with: harbour seals. They’re about 5-6ft long, weigh a few hundred pounds, and are roughly as threatening on land as a lethargic rabbit*.

    I mean, I’ve petted them while out of the water, and if they don’t want you to then they’ll blow a raspberry at you, roll on their side, and then wave their teeny-tiny (human-hand-sized, roughly) flippers at you. It’s…not the most frightening gesture ever. :P If you really annoy them, then they might try to nip you, but for all they’re flexible they don’t have the greatest reach.

    So, really, your average five-year-old could hold their own against one on land.

    Not that that in any way makes it less believable that they’d take down Cameron. :P

    *He says, despite having also owned rabbits and having rabbit-sat an animal that took on Labradors in fights and routinely won. Destroyed a broom in under 3 seconds, and could tear through gardening gloves in about as long…Assume I mean the more…peaceful lagomorphs. :P

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    Well, okay, but he’s never kissed anyone? Ever?

    He only converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained or are just supposed to accept it?

  • Rowen

    What makes this even creepier, I feel, is that Chloe didn’t grow up this way. It’s only after she became born again that she went through this RTC metamorphosis.

    For some reason, my mind is comparing her with the main character in the book Rhapsody. The thing is, though Rhapsody is show to always have had a very innocent outlook on the world and did her best to preserve that viewpoint, even giving herself some serious delusions in the process. Plus, Rhapsody isn’t meant to be an standard for women to live by, and is also a rather well fleshed out (if not completely Mary Sue) character.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    Well, okay, but he’s never kissed anyone? Ever?

    He only converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained or are just supposed to accept it?

  • Rowen

    What makes this even creepier, I feel, is that Chloe didn’t grow up this way. It’s only after she became born again that she went through this RTC metamorphosis.

    For some reason, my mind is comparing her with the main character in the book Rhapsody. The thing is, though Rhapsody is show to always have had a very innocent outlook on the world and did her best to preserve that viewpoint, even giving herself some serious delusions in the process. Plus, Rhapsody isn’t meant to be an standard for women to live by, and is also a rather well fleshed out (if not completely Mary Sue) character.

  • Rowen

    It’s never explained. While you could do something interesting with a 31 year old who was never really all that hormonal to begin with, and then spent all of college studying, and the past 10ish years really focusing on his career, that would be too much backstory for these guys.

    I’m guessing it’s more like how, in “The Stand,” Nadine is supernaturally protected so that she can one day be Satan’s Bride or something, and come to him as a snowy white virgin, freshness seal intact.

  • Rowen

    It’s never explained. While you could do something interesting with a 31 year old who was never really all that hormonal to begin with, and then spent all of college studying, and the past 10ish years really focusing on his career, that would be too much backstory for these guys.

    I’m guessing it’s more like how, in “The Stand,” Nadine is supernaturally protected so that she can one day be Satan’s Bride or something, and come to him as a snowy white virgin, freshness seal intact.

  • Fraser

    Well my wife and I will periodically assert which of us was luckier to find each other, but I’ve never felt the urge to say “Don’t say that! You’re the best, not me! Don’t even think anything else!”
    “For the record, that’s one thing you could tell young people who roll
    their eyes and attribute all this “taste” and “quality” stuff to plain
    elitism”–I remember Roger Ebert’s commenting that the people who grumble about how he knows too much about movies and shouldn’t compare movies to classics would probably be baffled if a sportswriter operated by that standard (i.e., writing with complete ignorance for the history of the game and the classic players).

  • Fraser

    Well my wife and I will periodically assert which of us was luckier to find each other, but I’ve never felt the urge to say “Don’t say that! You’re the best, not me! Don’t even think anything else!”
    “For the record, that’s one thing you could tell young people who roll
    their eyes and attribute all this “taste” and “quality” stuff to plain
    elitism”–I remember Roger Ebert’s commenting that the people who grumble about how he knows too much about movies and shouldn’t compare movies to classics would probably be baffled if a sportswriter operated by that standard (i.e., writing with complete ignorance for the history of the game and the classic players).

  • Fraser

    Pretty much everyone now writing has been shaped at least a little by Donner–the movie’s Fortress of Solitude design is standard now. So just how did Johns handle Lois in Secret Origins–I didn’t feel much need to pick up yet another origin retread.
    I know some writers (Grant Morrison and Mark Waid among them) have asserted that the fifties/Silver Age Superman/Lois/Clark triangle is Definitive and Integral to Superman. Of course, Jerry Siegel planned to have Lois learn Superman’s identity and work with him, so he’d obviously disagree.
    I’m also wondering if the kids who grew up with Byrne’s version will eventually retcon everything back to that when they start writing.

  • Fraser

    Pretty much everyone now writing has been shaped at least a little by Donner–the movie’s Fortress of Solitude design is standard now. So just how did Johns handle Lois in Secret Origins–I didn’t feel much need to pick up yet another origin retread.
    I know some writers (Grant Morrison and Mark Waid among them) have asserted that the fifties/Silver Age Superman/Lois/Clark triangle is Definitive and Integral to Superman. Of course, Jerry Siegel planned to have Lois learn Superman’s identity and work with him, so he’d obviously disagree.
    I’m also wondering if the kids who grew up with Byrne’s version will eventually retcon everything back to that when they start writing.

  • Fraser

    “Some people have made the mistake of seeing Shunt’s work as a load of
    rubbish about railway timetables, but clever people like me, who talk
    loudly in restaurants, see this as a deliberate ambiguity, a plea for
    understanding in a mechanized world.”——from Monty Python at http://www.montypython.net/scripts/neville.php (also check out the work by Shunt at http://www.montypython.net/scripts/railway.php)

  • Fraser

    “Some people have made the mistake of seeing Shunt’s work as a load of
    rubbish about railway timetables, but clever people like me, who talk
    loudly in restaurants, see this as a deliberate ambiguity, a plea for
    understanding in a mechanized world.”——from Monty Python at http://www.montypython.net/scripts/neville.php (also check out the work by Shunt at http://www.montypython.net/scripts/railway.php)

  • Anonymous

    Rereading the post to organize my thoughts on this week’s excerpt.  And I never thought I’d write these words, but I’m looking forward to Jenkins getting back to the Bible and telephone plotlines.  And soon, before I run out of Tums.  That said:

    Jenkins here is in a bit of a rush to get readers up to speed on what transpired in that interim so that, by the end of this chapter, he can return us to the 18-months-later present and have everyone get engaged in time for Bruce to perform the double wedding before he gets killed off.

    See, when you put it that way, it almost sounds like it’ll be interesting.  But this ain’t my first time at the rodeo.

    “I just don’t know what to do about timing and geography, with everything breaking the way it has.”

    Among all the awful dialogue in this section, it’s this bit from Chloe that clunks loudest for me.  This is not a sentence that any human being has spoken out loud, ever.  This is a sentence you’d read in a MMORPG programmer’s development blog.

    He still hid his identity as a believer. Whatever freedom and perceived objectivity he had would soon be gone if that truth was known to Carpathia.

    I know our authors like to pretend that their Christian protagonists live in constant peril, but it’s already been established that Nicolae is aware of Rayford’s beliefs and doesn’t care.  Not only am I skeptical that Nicolae would care about Buck’s RTC-ness either, but also, until this point I’d pretty much assumed he already knew.  Huh.

    As for the kissing scene itself, I think it started pretty sweetly, even fairly passionately.  Then Jenkins commits the error of letting us into Buck’s head, and we’re shown all the calculating and mechanical detachment going on in there.  And suddenly this could be a scene right out of  Dexter.  Buck, like Dexter, is hollow inside.  Even when he’s kissing his girlfriend, he’s feeling no passion or enjoyment; he’s not losing himself in the moment like a lovestruck suitor in a romantic smooch would.  Jenkins should have let the kiss stand on its own.  It should’ve been more like The Brady Bunch, where you cut to stock footage of fireworks and move on.

  • Anonymous

    Rereading the post to organize my thoughts on this week’s excerpt.  And I never thought I’d write these words, but I’m looking forward to Jenkins getting back to the Bible and telephone plotlines.  And soon, before I run out of Tums.  That said:

    Jenkins here is in a bit of a rush to get readers up to speed on what transpired in that interim so that, by the end of this chapter, he can return us to the 18-months-later present and have everyone get engaged in time for Bruce to perform the double wedding before he gets killed off.

    See, when you put it that way, it almost sounds like it’ll be interesting.  But this ain’t my first time at the rodeo.

    “I just don’t know what to do about timing and geography, with everything breaking the way it has.”

    Among all the awful dialogue in this section, it’s this bit from Chloe that clunks loudest for me.  This is not a sentence that any human being has spoken out loud, ever.  This is a sentence you’d read in a MMORPG programmer’s development blog.

    He still hid his identity as a believer. Whatever freedom and perceived objectivity he had would soon be gone if that truth was known to Carpathia.

    I know our authors like to pretend that their Christian protagonists live in constant peril, but it’s already been established that Nicolae is aware of Rayford’s beliefs and doesn’t care.  Not only am I skeptical that Nicolae would care about Buck’s RTC-ness either, but also, until this point I’d pretty much assumed he already knew.  Huh.

    As for the kissing scene itself, I think it started pretty sweetly, even fairly passionately.  Then Jenkins commits the error of letting us into Buck’s head, and we’re shown all the calculating and mechanical detachment going on in there.  And suddenly this could be a scene right out of  Dexter.  Buck, like Dexter, is hollow inside.  Even when he’s kissing his girlfriend, he’s feeling no passion or enjoyment; he’s not losing himself in the moment like a lovestruck suitor in a romantic smooch would.  Jenkins should have let the kiss stand on its own.  It should’ve been more like The Brady Bunch, where you cut to stock footage of fireworks and move on.

  • Anonymous

    I think it’s possible, though. Neither my mother nor father were raised in RTC culture (her Catholic, him… something else, probably Congregationalist), but they both fell into the cultural norms with abandon once they were Truly Saved. It was much the same with the rest of our little church. If you went in, you went in all the way, which kinda doesn’t sound quite right on this particular thread, but whatever.

    Anyway, I think Buck’s main problem is that he never made friends at the office who could fix this RTCism in him. Case in point, my dad. He’ll tell me not to carry heavy stuff, dress this way, do that, because I’m a Gurl, and it’s Ungurly. But he’s never said a word of that around his sisters, any one of whom would kick his ass if he even hinted in that direction. Which is the main reason he’s a tolerable person, I think.

    The only reason the RTC cultural mindset manages to sink in so quickly is because most of them enforce serious separation between guys and girls, which just allows the mysteries to grow like weeds. The school I went to, there was no physical contact of any kind allowed, at all, between boys and girls, ever. Which led to me eventually refusing to sit on the rope swing with my brother, because what if I accidentally got pregnant? That’s a sin!

    Anyway. To me, it makes sense. The dialogue… doesn’t, because no, even RTC girls don’t talk like that (hint: they talk like girls, not robots, Jenkins), but the whole thought process kinda does. Once you’re in, you’re in all the way– if you’re not sure whether God would Approve of something, the safe course is always on the side of jackassery celibacy.

    (Tangential, but related– have you guys seen this article yet?)

  • Anonymous

    I think it’s possible, though. Neither my mother nor father were raised in RTC culture (her Catholic, him… something else, probably Congregationalist), but they both fell into the cultural norms with abandon once they were Truly Saved. It was much the same with the rest of our little church. If you went in, you went in all the way, which kinda doesn’t sound quite right on this particular thread, but whatever.

    Anyway, I think Buck’s main problem is that he never made friends at the office who could fix this RTCism in him. Case in point, my dad. He’ll tell me not to carry heavy stuff, dress this way, do that, because I’m a Gurl, and it’s Ungurly. But he’s never said a word of that around his sisters, any one of whom would kick his ass if he even hinted in that direction. Which is the main reason he’s a tolerable person, I think.

    The only reason the RTC cultural mindset manages to sink in so quickly is because most of them enforce serious separation between guys and girls, which just allows the mysteries to grow like weeds. The school I went to, there was no physical contact of any kind allowed, at all, between boys and girls, ever. Which led to me eventually refusing to sit on the rope swing with my brother, because what if I accidentally got pregnant? That’s a sin!

    Anyway. To me, it makes sense. The dialogue… doesn’t, because no, even RTC girls don’t talk like that (hint: they talk like girls, not robots, Jenkins), but the whole thought process kinda does. Once you’re in, you’re in all the way– if you’re not sure whether God would Approve of something, the safe course is always on the side of jackassery celibacy.

    (Tangential, but related– have you guys seen this article yet?)

  • Ken

    I only read this stuff for the itinerary porn. Now you’re telling me
    that Jenkins is skipping over it. Just a discreet mention and a fade
    out. No graphic detail. No discussion of alternate routes and
    contingency plans.

    Donald Westlake wrote a scene once – I think it was in Dancing Aztecs but don’t quote me – where two people were about to make love.  He broke out of the narrative to address the reader directly, writing something like,

    Some authors in this situation now go into great detail about each action that John and Mary take over the next hour.  Strangely, these same authors would never do this in any other situation.  They would not for example write,

    ‘John used his right hand to insert the key into the door lock of his 1984 Ford.  Turning the key seventy degrees right disengaged the locking mechanism.  He withdrew the key, then used his left hand to raise the door handle one inch, unlatching the door, and pulled it toward him and to the left until the door was fully open.  Turning somewhat to his left so that he know faced the front of the car, he crouched slightly to slide into the driver’s seat…’

    and so on for the five pages it would take to describe a trip to the grocery store.  This is because the reader knows what a trip to the grocery store is like, and can fill in any details that they may wish from the simple ‘John drove to the grocery store.’  So on that principle, I will simply write, ‘John and Mary made love.’

  • Ken

    I only read this stuff for the itinerary porn. Now you’re telling me
    that Jenkins is skipping over it. Just a discreet mention and a fade
    out. No graphic detail. No discussion of alternate routes and
    contingency plans.

    Donald Westlake wrote a scene once – I think it was in Dancing Aztecs but don’t quote me – where two people were about to make love.  He broke out of the narrative to address the reader directly, writing something like,

    Some authors in this situation now go into great detail about each action that John and Mary take over the next hour.  Strangely, these same authors would never do this in any other situation.  They would not for example write,

    ‘John used his right hand to insert the key into the door lock of his 1984 Ford.  Turning the key seventy degrees right disengaged the locking mechanism.  He withdrew the key, then used his left hand to raise the door handle one inch, unlatching the door, and pulled it toward him and to the left until the door was fully open.  Turning somewhat to his left so that he know faced the front of the car, he crouched slightly to slide into the driver’s seat…’

    and so on for the five pages it would take to describe a trip to the grocery store.  This is because the reader knows what a trip to the grocery store is like, and can fill in any details that they may wish from the simple ‘John drove to the grocery store.’  So on that principle, I will simply write, ‘John and Mary made love.’

  • Fraser

    Just browsed it this morning. While quite unsurprised, I am …. annoyed at the handling. And the art.

  • Fraser

    Just browsed it this morning. While quite unsurprised, I am …. annoyed at the handling. And the art.

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    Ha!

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    Ha!

  • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

    I think the worst part of this bit is that Buck forces himself on Chloe when she’s protesting, and that’s somehow viewed as a good thing.

    She tries to stop the kiss (for whatever stupid reason), but she’s painted as actually wanting the kiss in spite of her protests by the end of the scene. Buck is painted as somehow knowing that her protests are a front for her real desires, and essentially overpowers the weaker female.

    The precedent set here is truly disgusting. From every angle, and at every level. 

    I mean, seriously, what is Buck going to do when he wants to bone her, and she protests? If overpowering her for a kiss was okay, why not overpowering her for more?

  • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

    I think the worst part of this bit is that Buck forces himself on Chloe when she’s protesting, and that’s somehow viewed as a good thing.

    She tries to stop the kiss (for whatever stupid reason), but she’s painted as actually wanting the kiss in spite of her protests by the end of the scene. Buck is painted as somehow knowing that her protests are a front for her real desires, and essentially overpowers the weaker female.

    The precedent set here is truly disgusting. From every angle, and at every level. 

    I mean, seriously, what is Buck going to do when he wants to bone her, and she protests? If overpowering her for a kiss was okay, why not overpowering her for more?

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    It’s difficult to describe his handling of Lois.  It was very much informed by the Teri Hatcher version from the TV show, but taken to a more extreme level of comedic bumbling.
    So it wasn’t just that she looked before she leaped because she was bold and brash, but more that she was incompetent and overconfident, and life-threatening wackiness would ensue as a result.
    The other thing that bothered me was that there was never any real indication of Superman/Clark having any particular interest in her.  Certainly no “moment” like the “Hold it right there, buster!” scene from Byrne’s Man of Steel.
    Personally, I would like to see people retconning back towards the Byrne version.  Technically, I “grew up” on the Bronze Age version – I was in high school by the time Man of Steel hit the stands – but I have much more affection for the Byrne Era, and consider that “my” Superman.  I guess because I have the enthusiasm of a convert; I was initially resistant to Byrne’s changes, but he won me over pretty quickly.  Also, some of the best Superman stories spun out of what Byrne introduced – there’s a good reason that back in the early 90s Comic Buyer’s Guide referred to the Super-titles as “Consistently the best mainstream comics out there.”
    It also doesn’t help that I’m pretty rabidly anti-Donner.
    (At the DC panel at Baltimore Comic-Con last year, Ian Sattler mentioned, with reverence that, “Richard Donner liked it” when talking about Superman:  Earth One.  I didn’t exactly consider that to be points in the book’s favor.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    It’s difficult to describe his handling of Lois.  It was very much informed by the Teri Hatcher version from the TV show, but taken to a more extreme level of comedic bumbling.
    So it wasn’t just that she looked before she leaped because she was bold and brash, but more that she was incompetent and overconfident, and life-threatening wackiness would ensue as a result.
    The other thing that bothered me was that there was never any real indication of Superman/Clark having any particular interest in her.  Certainly no “moment” like the “Hold it right there, buster!” scene from Byrne’s Man of Steel.
    Personally, I would like to see people retconning back towards the Byrne version.  Technically, I “grew up” on the Bronze Age version – I was in high school by the time Man of Steel hit the stands – but I have much more affection for the Byrne Era, and consider that “my” Superman.  I guess because I have the enthusiasm of a convert; I was initially resistant to Byrne’s changes, but he won me over pretty quickly.  Also, some of the best Superman stories spun out of what Byrne introduced – there’s a good reason that back in the early 90s Comic Buyer’s Guide referred to the Super-titles as “Consistently the best mainstream comics out there.”
    It also doesn’t help that I’m pretty rabidly anti-Donner.
    (At the DC panel at Baltimore Comic-Con last year, Ian Sattler mentioned, with reverence that, “Richard Donner liked it” when talking about Superman:  Earth One.  I didn’t exactly consider that to be points in the book’s favor.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    I don’t think this guy is going to make us read a Buck/Chloe set scene.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    I don’t think this guy is going to make us read a Buck/Chloe set scene.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    I don’t think this guy is going to make us read a Buck/Chloe set scene.

  • Fraser

    I’m not a Byrne fan, though after 20 years, revamping everything comes off as an exercise in futility–I’d sooner have kept the status quo.
    Sounds like Johns was channeling Silver Age Lois at her worst.
    I did like Darwyn Cooke’s handling of the relationship in Kryptonite.

  • Fraser

    But that would still make her a better reporter than the GIRAT.

  • Fraser

    I’m not a Byrne fan, though after 20 years, revamping everything comes off as an exercise in futility–I’d sooner have kept the status quo.
    Sounds like Johns was channeling Silver Age Lois at her worst.
    I did like Darwyn Cooke’s handling of the relationship in Kryptonite.

  • Fraser

    But that would still make her a better reporter than the GIRAT.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Another explanation for Chloe’s odd resistance to the man she is supposedly in love with is that Chloe is now a Good Christian Girl, and Good Christian Girls are not supposed to desire any sort of physical intimacy, even something as simple as a kiss.  Imagine if she had actually wanted to be kissed!  Couple that with that brazen bit of hand-holding she initiated earlier in the story, and we’ve got a regular Whore of Babylon on our hands!

    That heavily depends on the Good Christian Girl in question.  I have a friend who considers herself a “handmaiden of The Lord,” believes that gentle courting is better than crass dating, and when she gets married she expects lots of sex with ropes, toys, and hot candle wax.  

    Sure, she considers sex before marriage a sin, but the Bible says nothing about a married person having a raging kinky libido.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Another explanation for Chloe’s odd resistance to the man she is supposedly in love with is that Chloe is now a Good Christian Girl, and Good Christian Girls are not supposed to desire any sort of physical intimacy, even something as simple as a kiss.  Imagine if she had actually wanted to be kissed!  Couple that with that brazen bit of hand-holding she initiated earlier in the story, and we’ve got a regular Whore of Babylon on our hands!

    That heavily depends on the Good Christian Girl in question.  I have a friend who considers herself a “handmaiden of The Lord,” believes that gentle courting is better than crass dating, and when she gets married she expects lots of sex with ropes, toys, and hot candle wax.  

    Sure, she considers sex before marriage a sin, but the Bible says nothing about a married person having a raging kinky libido.  

  • Anonymous

    O_o It sounds like you were rabbit-sitting Max, from Sam and Max.  Or at least Max’s nonsapient cousin.  Good heavens.

  • Anonymous

    O_o It sounds like you were rabbit-sitting Max, from Sam and Max.  Or at least Max’s nonsapient cousin.  Good heavens.

  • Beran1

    “He’s not going to want to be alone if we decide to get
    more serious.”“Seems to me we’ve already decided.” Chloe slipped
    her hand into Buck’s.”First, we’ll have an orgy, and than we’ll go see Tony Bennet!”
     

  • Anonymous

    I almost couldn’t get through even Fred’s shredding of this scene.  It comes off as so wrong with the way Buck treats Chloe.  It’s… it frankly goes beyond ‘creepy.’

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Okay, I think a first kiss can be something you think about, or hope for, but plan it? Kinda creepy. And seeing how his plan apparently involves kiss her despite her resistance to shut her up in her one-upmanship contest of who loves the other more, I hate to think what would have happened if he hadn’t ‘planned’ it. “Okay Chloe, I’ll have my people call your people to set a date for our first kiss.”

    While this particular example is certainly creepy, I would not paint all planned first kisses with that brush.  My first kiss was the result of planning, and it was a very happy memory for me.  For the sake of intimacy, it would probably be best that I not list the details on a public forum, but suffice to say I was asked beforehand by a female friend if she could kiss me, I agreed, and later that week after an afternoon at the pier and an evening watching anime, she followed-through.  

    I think that, had I not been expecting it, I might have reacted a bit more like Chloe did in this scene, recoiling a bit, unsure of myself of how I was supposed to react.  Knowing that is something that she wanted to do, having asked my consent well ahead of time, gave the awkwardly nebbish twenty year old me enough time to adjust to the idea and get in the right headspace.  

  • Beran1

    “He’s not going to want to be alone if we decide to get
    more serious.”“Seems to me we’ve already decided.” Chloe slipped
    her hand into Buck’s.”First, we’ll have an orgy, and than we’ll go see Tony Bennet!”
     

  • Anonymous

    I almost couldn’t get through even Fred’s shredding of this scene.  It comes off as so wrong with the way Buck treats Chloe.  It’s… it frankly goes beyond ‘creepy.’

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Okay, I think a first kiss can be something you think about, or hope for, but plan it? Kinda creepy. And seeing how his plan apparently involves kiss her despite her resistance to shut her up in her one-upmanship contest of who loves the other more, I hate to think what would have happened if he hadn’t ‘planned’ it. “Okay Chloe, I’ll have my people call your people to set a date for our first kiss.”

    While this particular example is certainly creepy, I would not paint all planned first kisses with that brush.  My first kiss was the result of planning, and it was a very happy memory for me.  For the sake of intimacy, it would probably be best that I not list the details on a public forum, but suffice to say I was asked beforehand by a female friend if she could kiss me, I agreed, and later that week after an afternoon at the pier and an evening watching anime, she followed-through.  

    I think that, had I not been expecting it, I might have reacted a bit more like Chloe did in this scene, recoiling a bit, unsure of myself of how I was supposed to react.  Knowing that is something that she wanted to do, having asked my consent well ahead of time, gave the awkwardly nebbish twenty year old me enough time to adjust to the idea and get in the right headspace.  

  • Anonymous

    He still hid his identity as a believer. Whatever freedom and perceived
    objectivity he had would soon be gone if that truth was known to
    Carpathia.

    OK, “perceived objectivity”? Which would be lost if Carpatia know he was “a believer”? Whose perceptions is he talking about? And what would be the value of the “objectivity”?

    Does. Not. Compute.

    Also, that little bit of byplay between Chloe and Buck:

    “I wish you could come with me,” Buck said at one point.
    “Yeah, that would be appropriate,” she said.

    Buck’s statement is actually reasonable as reassurance meaning, “Even though I am taking off for the other side of the world, I still really care about you”. Unfortunately, he quite obviously isn’t making anything like a commitment.

    So, perhaps it’s not surprising that Chloe’s response can’t possibly be read without a certain ‘tone’ (either sarcastic or at least dry). If she accepted his reassurances, she would say something more like, “I wish I could, too.” Then she would follow up with, “But, you know it wouldn’t be right/moral/appropriate.” thus making clear that her problem is going without the ring on her finger.

    As it is, Buck not ‘biting’ merely points up the broad marriage hint that is being ignored and sets up the whole battle thing … and a kiss which is more like staking a claim or placing a brand rather than a romance.

  • Anonymous

    He still hid his identity as a believer. Whatever freedom and perceived
    objectivity he had would soon be gone if that truth was known to
    Carpathia.

    OK, “perceived objectivity”? Which would be lost if Carpatia knew he was “a believer”? Whose perceptions is he talking about? And what would be the value of the “objectivity”?

    Does. Not. Compute.

    Also, that little bit of byplay between Chloe and Buck:

    “I wish you could come with me,” Buck said at one point.
    “Yeah, that would be appropriate,” she said.

    Buck’s statement is actually reasonable as reassurance meaning, “Even though I am taking off for the other side of the world, I still really care about you”. Unfortunately, he quite obviously isn’t making anything like a commitment.

    So, perhaps it’s not surprising that Chloe’s response can’t possibly be read without a certain ‘tone’ (either sarcastic or at least dry). If she accepted his reassurances, she would say something more like, “I wish I could, too.” Then she would follow up with, “But, you know it wouldn’t be right/moral/appropriate.” thus making clear that her problem is going without the ring on her finger.

    As it is, Buck not ‘biting’ merely points up the broad marriage hint that is being ignored and sets up the whole battle thing … and a kiss which is more like staking a claim or placing a brand rather than a romance.

  • Anonymous

    I’m not sure who you were responding to, but do you know if ze found out where that loony lagomorph keeps his gun?

  • Anonymous

    I’m not sure who you were responding to, but do you know if ze found out where that loony lagomorph keeps his gun?

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    I’ve been trying to write some Buck-Chloe fic that makes their weird courtship seem less weird, or at least somewhat endearing, and the very first thing I had to do was write Buck as a journalistic-savant that is utterly clueless at every other kind of human interaction.

    Interview a celebrity? OK. Talk to a pretty girl he just met? No clue.
    Find travel across a chaotic country with disrupted air travel and highways clogged with wrecks? Can do! Knowing when to lean in for that first kiss? Absolutely lost & hopeless. When Buck buys Chloe a cookie at the airport, it’s not meant to be a sweet gesture; he can’t seem to get the upper hand in conversation, and buys her something to eat so she can’t talk as much.

    The fun part of this is that to make it work, I get to write Chloe as being the more experienced and confident of the pair. She’s the one who’s already had her heart broken, knows when someone is crushing on her, and is trying not to hurt Buck’s feelings. I’ve got one more piece to write; hopefully, I’ll be able to make simultaneous cookie-snarfing work.

    Buck seems to work best for me as somewhat clueless. He’s the Jerry Sienfeld to Rayford’s George Costanza: offensive without really being completely aware of it.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    I’ve been trying to write some Buck-Chloe fic that makes their weird courtship seem less weird, or at least somewhat endearing, and the very first thing I had to do was write Buck as a journalistic-savant that is utterly clueless at every other kind of human interaction.

    Interview a celebrity? OK. Talk to a pretty girl he just met? No clue.
    Find travel across a chaotic country with disrupted air travel and highways clogged with wrecks? Can do! Knowing when to lean in for that first kiss? Absolutely lost & hopeless. When Buck buys Chloe a cookie at the airport, it’s not meant to be a sweet gesture; he can’t seem to get the upper hand in conversation, and buys her something to eat so she can’t talk as much.

    The fun part of this is that to make it work, I get to write Chloe as being the more experienced and confident of the pair. She’s the one who’s already had her heart broken, knows when someone is crushing on her, and is trying not to hurt Buck’s feelings. I’ve got one more piece to write; hopefully, I’ll be able to make simultaneous cookie-snarfing work.

    Buck seems to work best for me as somewhat clueless. He’s the Jerry Sienfeld to Rayford’s George Costanza: offensive without really being completely aware of it.

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    I’ve been trying to write some Buck-Chloe fic that makes their weird courtship seem less weird, or at least somewhat endearing, and the very first thing I had to do was write Buck as a journalistic-savant that is utterly clueless at every other kind of human interaction.

    Interview a celebrity? OK. Talk to a pretty girl he just met? No clue.
    Find travel across a chaotic country with disrupted air travel and highways clogged with wrecks? Can do! Knowing when to lean in for that first kiss? Absolutely lost & hopeless. When Buck buys Chloe a cookie at the airport, it’s not meant to be a sweet gesture; he can’t seem to get the upper hand in conversation, and buys her something to eat so she can’t talk as much.

    The fun part of this is that to make it work, I get to write Chloe as being the more experienced and confident of the pair. She’s the one who’s already had her heart broken, knows when someone is crushing on her, and is trying not to hurt Buck’s feelings. I’ve got one more piece to write; hopefully, I’ll be able to make simultaneous cookie-snarfing work.

    Buck seems to work best for me as somewhat clueless. He’s the Jerry Sienfeld to Rayford’s George Costanza: offensive without really being completely aware of it.

  • Fraser

    Some scenes are just more interesting than others and deserve to be done in detail. These can include sex scenes, autopsies, heart surgery combat or ritual spellcasting depending on the topic. And going into more detail than “they made love” doesn’t mean the exact level of detail in Westlake’s parody, just more detail.
    Plus, sex is an intensely personal act (or it can be). I’ve seen stories that went into great detail and in so doing showed me a lot about the character. Of course, they can also be crap, but I don’t go for blanket rejection of them.

  • Fraser

    Some scenes are just more interesting than others and deserve to be done in detail. These can include sex scenes, autopsies, heart surgery combat or ritual spellcasting depending on the topic. And going into more detail than “they made love” doesn’t mean the exact level of detail in Westlake’s parody, just more detail.
    Plus, sex is an intensely personal act (or it can be). I’ve seen stories that went into great detail and in so doing showed me a lot about the character. Of course, they can also be crap, but I don’t go for blanket rejection of them.

  • Fraser

    Some scenes are just more interesting than others and deserve to be done in detail. These can include sex scenes, autopsies, heart surgery combat or ritual spellcasting depending on the topic. And going into more detail than “they made love” doesn’t mean the exact level of detail in Westlake’s parody, just more detail.
    Plus, sex is an intensely personal act (or it can be). I’ve seen stories that went into great detail and in so doing showed me a lot about the character. Of course, they can also be crap, but I don’t go for blanket rejection of them.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Then Jenkins commits the error of letting us into Buck’s head, and we’re shown all the calculating and mechanical detachment going on in there.  And suddenly this could be a scene right out of  Dexter.  Buck, like Dexter, is hollow inside.  Even when he’s kissing his girlfriend, he’s feeling no passion or enjoyment; he’s not losing himself in the moment like a lovestruck suitor in a romantic smooch would.

    To be honest, I tend to have a similar detachment while kissing.  Or at least, I did at first.  It was something I had to learn to enjoy.  

    Data’s experience mirrors my own pretty closely.

    It is not necessarily a bad or malicious thing, that detachment.  Sometimes that is just how a person is built.  It does not mean that they cannot be sweet though.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Then Jenkins commits the error of letting us into Buck’s head, and we’re shown all the calculating and mechanical detachment going on in there.  And suddenly this could be a scene right out of  Dexter.  Buck, like Dexter, is hollow inside.  Even when he’s kissing his girlfriend, he’s feeling no passion or enjoyment; he’s not losing himself in the moment like a lovestruck suitor in a romantic smooch would.

    To be honest, I tend to have a similar detachment while kissing.  Or at least, I did at first.  It was something I had to learn to enjoy.  

    Data’s experience mirrors my own pretty closely.

    It is not necessarily a bad or malicious thing, that detachment.  Sometimes that is just how a person is built.  It does not mean that they cannot be sweet though.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Then Jenkins commits the error of letting us into Buck’s head, and we’re shown all the calculating and mechanical detachment going on in there.  And suddenly this could be a scene right out of  Dexter.  Buck, like Dexter, is hollow inside.  Even when he’s kissing his girlfriend, he’s feeling no passion or enjoyment; he’s not losing himself in the moment like a lovestruck suitor in a romantic smooch would.

    To be honest, I tend to have a similar detachment while kissing.  Or at least, I did at first.  It was something I had to learn to enjoy.  

    Data’s experience mirrors my own pretty closely.

    It is not necessarily a bad or malicious thing, that detachment.  Sometimes that is just how a person is built.  It does not mean that they cannot be sweet though.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I’m not sure who you were responding to, but do you know if ze found out where that loony lagomorph keeps his gun?

    That’s none of your damn business!

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I’m not sure who you were responding to, but do you know if ze found out where that loony lagomorph keeps his gun?

    That’s none of your damn business!

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I’m not sure who you were responding to, but do you know if ze found out where that loony lagomorph keeps his gun?

    That’s none of your damn business!

  • Fraser

    As a former journalist, that’s actually quite plausible. It’s much easier to not be tongue-tied when I have a business reason for talking to someone beautiful/desirable.

  • Fraser

    As a former journalist, that’s actually quite plausible. It’s much easier to not be tongue-tied when I have a business reason for talking to someone beautiful/desirable.

  • Fraser

    As a former journalist, that’s actually quite plausible. It’s much easier to not be tongue-tied when I have a business reason for talking to someone beautiful/desirable.

  • Anonymous

    Crossposted to Slacktiverse:

    Slightly OT: I’ve got a Right Behind fanfic that’s almost ready to be posted. First, can anyone tell me how to post to Right Behind? Additionally, is anyone willing to beta my fanfic? (Email me at b m o s c g o o (near to) gmail.com if you’re willing or can tell me how to post to RB: I don’t know how frequently I’ll be checking the boards.)

  • Anonymous

    Crossposted to Slacktiverse:

    Slightly OT: I’ve got a Right Behind fanfic that’s almost ready to be posted. First, can anyone tell me how to post to Right Behind? Additionally, is anyone willing to beta my fanfic? (Email me at b m o s c g o o (near to) gmail.com if you’re willing or can tell me how to post to RB: I don’t know how frequently I’ll be checking the boards.)

  • Anonymous

    This view is also quite prevalent in my Christian circles. The relevant verse (since you always need one of those) is Proverbs 5:19:

    Rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe.Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.

    Not exactly Victorian, there.

  • Anonymous

    This view is also quite prevalent in my Christian circles. The relevant verse (since you always need one of those) is Proverbs 5:19:

    Rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe.Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.

    Not exactly Victorian, there.

  • Anonymous

    It is not necessarily a bad or malicious thing, that detachment.  Sometimes that is just how a person is built.  It does not mean that they cannot be sweet though.

    Point well taken.  I apologize if I caused offense; it wasn’t my intent to equate you or any other real person with a serial-killing sociopath, or worse, a Jerry Jenkins protagonist, and I sincerely hope you didn’t take it as such.  Everyone’s different.  Every kiss is different, too, and I know I’ve often had my mind wander through some of the longer ones.  That’s probably normal, I expect.  Some kisses are like an Oasis guitar solo.  Sure they’re terrific, but around the sixth or seventh minute you start thinking about your geometry assignment and whether you need to pick up gas on the way home.

    However, when it comes to this Buck/Chloe scene, Buck’s self-consciousness and emotional detachment are coupled with all the dominance and power play stuff that Fred and everyone else have commented on.  These come together to paint, IMHO, a seriously unsavory picture of Buck — someone who demonstrates little if any love in his personal thoughts, which Jenkins makes us privy to, and whose words and actions seem carefully chosen to keep Chloe underfoot and under his control.  If Buck were secretly a manipulative villain, you could pretty much keep this whole scene unchanged and it would still work. (*)  In fact, it might even work better.

    (*) For those familiar with Planescape: Torment, this scene reminds me of the part in the game where you recall how your earlier incarnation cruelly manipulated his lover Deionarra into sacrificing her life for his own purposes.

  • Anonymous

    It is not necessarily a bad or malicious thing, that detachment.  Sometimes that is just how a person is built.  It does not mean that they cannot be sweet though.

    Point well taken.  I apologize if I caused offense; it wasn’t my intent to equate you or any other real person with a serial-killing sociopath, or worse, a Jerry Jenkins protagonist, and I sincerely hope you didn’t take it as such.  Everyone’s different.  Every kiss is different, too, and I know I’ve often had my mind wander through some of the longer ones.  That’s probably normal, I expect.  Some kisses are like an Oasis guitar solo.  Sure they’re terrific, but around the sixth or seventh minute you start thinking about your geometry assignment and whether you need to pick up gas on the way home.

    However, when it comes to this Buck/Chloe scene, Buck’s self-consciousness and emotional detachment are coupled with all the dominance and power play stuff that Fred and everyone else have commented on.  These come together to paint, IMHO, a seriously unsavory picture of Buck — someone who demonstrates little if any love in his personal thoughts, which Jenkins makes us privy to, and whose words and actions seem carefully chosen to keep Chloe underfoot and under his control.  If Buck were secretly a manipulative villain, you could pretty much keep this whole scene unchanged and it would still work. (*)  In fact, it might even work better.

    (*) For those familiar with Planescape: Torment, this scene reminds me of the part in the game where you recall how your earlier incarnation cruelly manipulated his lover Deionarra into sacrificing her life for his own purposes.

  • Anonymous

    Heheheh…God said “breasts.”

  • Anonymous

    Heheheh…God said “breasts.”

  • Anonymous

    Heheheh…God said “breasts.”

  • Izzy

    Ugh, Hatcher!Lois. I just…no. 

  • Izzy

    Ugh, Hatcher!Lois. I just…no. 

  • Anonymous

    She was named “Molly” and belonged to a friend of my sister. She’d grown up in a house with a cat, a golden retriever, and a hamster (only ever encountered her in one of those transparent balls)*, all of which she’d cowed into submission.

    We let our pet rabbits essentially roam around the house, but that didn’t work with Molly, since she didn’t get along well with them. When we had to return her to her cage she got…testy. She’d hide under things (understandable, we were strangers) and our standard method of getting rabbits into the open (poke them gently with a broom) resulted in us being down one broom after about a day.

    Once you got her out, you had to catch her. She bit. She scratched. She kicked. She went for the face when she could. It was rather impressive. If wild rabbits had half that aggressiveness they’d be apex herbivores.

    *I’m not entirely sure how she scared a hamster inside what’s effectively a force-field, though I gather she’d roll it around for fun. The hamster tended to chase the cat when it was bored, so it was rather impressive on its own.

  • Anonymous

    She was named “Molly” and belonged to a friend of my sister. She’d grown up in a house with a cat, a golden retriever, and a hamster (he only ever encountered her in one of those transparent balls)*, all of which she’d cowed into submission.

    We let our pet rabbits essentially roam around the house, but that didn’t work with Molly, since she didn’t get along well with them. When we had to return her to her cage she got…testy. She’d hide under things (understandable, we were strangers) and our standard method of getting rabbits into the open (poke them gently with a broom) resulted in us being down one broom after about a day.

    Once you got her out, you had to catch her. She bit. She scratched. She kicked. She went for the face when she could. It was rather impressive. If wild rabbits had half that aggressiveness they’d be apex herbivores.

    *I’m not entirely sure how she scared a hamster inside what’s effectively a force-field, though I gather she’d roll it around for fun. The hamster tended to chase the cat when it was bored, so it was rather impressive on its own.

    Edit: Oh, and if anyone’s ever seen two rabbits fighting, it’s almost awe-inspiring. It’s like a Hong Kong kung-fu movie. They charge at each other and then jump. Several feet in the air. While kicking at each other. Then they repeat. You would honestly never think they could jump that high, and the acrobatics and stunts they pull in the air to try and land a blow while not being hit would make a Cirque du Soleil performer envious.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    I’ve never kissed anyone, but I think I’ll probably be pretty detatched and thoughtful— maybe even analytical— if I ever do. I get like that when I’m watching movies, and it drives my mother crazy— “Why can’t you just enjoy the movie?” I can’t make her understand that you can enjoy a movie even as you think about it.

    I can also see myself planning for a kiss— make sure to avoid seafood that day, ask for permission (either orally or physically,) these are ways the other person is likely to respond, this is how to deal with each of them.* People being analytical doesn’t mean they’re less passionate, just that they don’t lose themselves in passionate movements.

    *The list of Ways to Behave After You’ve Kissed Someone does not include Buck’s run-away-and-avoid-talking-to-her plan. If somebody did that to me I’d be righteously pissed off.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    I’ve never kissed anyone, but I think I’ll probably be pretty detatched and thoughtful— maybe even analytical— if I ever do. I get like that when I’m watching movies, and it drives my mother crazy— “Why can’t you just enjoy the movie?” I can’t make her understand that you can enjoy a movie even as you think about it.

    I can also see myself planning for a kiss— make sure to avoid seafood that day, ask for permission (either orally or physically,) these are ways the other person is likely to respond, this is how to deal with each of them.* People being analytical doesn’t mean they’re less passionate, just that they don’t lose themselves in passionate movements.

    *The list of Ways to Behave After You’ve Kissed Someone does not include Buck’s run-away-and-avoid-talking-to-her plan. If somebody did that to me I’d be righteously pissed off.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    The “appropriate” line could be a way of showing that a jokey couple (or a couple where Chloe’s a deadpan snarker and Buck’s okay with that) are comfortable with each other. With these characters and with Jerry Jenkins writing it, it’s just weird.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    The “appropriate” line could be a way of showing that a jokey couple (or a couple where Chloe’s a deadpan snarker and Buck’s okay with that) are comfortable with each other. With these characters and with Jerry Jenkins writing it, it’s just weird.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Point well taken.  I apologize if I caused offense; it wasn’t my intent to equate you or any other real person with a serial-killing sociopath, or worse, a Jerry Jenkins protagonist, and I sincerely hope you didn’t take it as such.  Everyone’s different.  Every kiss is different, too, and I know I’ve often had my mind wander through some of the longer ones.  That’s probably normal, I expect.  Some kisses are like an Oasis guitar solo.  Sure they’re terrific, but around the sixth or seventh minute you start thinking about your geometry assignment and whether you need to pick up gas on the way home.

    Oh, I did not take offense, but I have seen that it is an easy generalization to make.  I am in fact very analytical in regard to my relationships with other people.  It is when I stop analyzing that those relationships take a turn for the worse.  One friend I was with, I observed her in a situation in which her eyes were cast away from what she was ostensibly paying attention to, and she repeatedly sighed.  I determined from her use of these expressions in the then-current context that she was feeling down, so I reached over and gave her a hug.  She later thanked me for the “random” hug, as it made her feel better.  I told her that the hug was not random, I came to the determination that she was feeling down and that such a gesture on my part would help to relieve her emotional stress.  

    The point was, she was my friend, I wanted to make her feel better, so I analyzed her and derived a solution to produce that result.  I suppose that is technically manipulation, but not toward some kind of self-serving end.  

    Buck though… 

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Point well taken.  I apologize if I caused offense; it wasn’t my intent to equate you or any other real person with a serial-killing sociopath, or worse, a Jerry Jenkins protagonist, and I sincerely hope you didn’t take it as such.  Everyone’s different.  Every kiss is different, too, and I know I’ve often had my mind wander through some of the longer ones.  That’s probably normal, I expect.  Some kisses are like an Oasis guitar solo.  Sure they’re terrific, but around the sixth or seventh minute you start thinking about your geometry assignment and whether you need to pick up gas on the way home.

    Oh, I did not take offense, but I have seen that it is an easy generalization to make.  I am in fact very analytical in regard to my relationships with other people.  It is when I stop analyzing that those relationships take a turn for the worse.  One friend I was with, I observed her in a situation in which her eyes were cast away from what she was ostensibly paying attention to, and she repeatedly sighed.  I determined from her use of these expressions in the then-current context that she was feeling down, so I reached over and gave her a hug.  She later thanked me for the “random” hug, as it made her feel better.  I told her that the hug was not random, I came to the determination that she was feeling down and that such a gesture on my part would help to relieve her emotional stress.  

    The point was, she was my friend, I wanted to make her feel better, so I analyzed her and derived a solution to produce that result.  I suppose that is technically manipulation, but not toward some kind of self-serving end.  

    Buck though… 

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I’ve never kissed anyone, but I think I’ll probably be pretty detatched and thoughtful— maybe even analytical— if I ever do. I get like that when I’m watching movies, and it drives my mother crazy— “Why can’t you just enjoy the movie?” I can’t make her understand that you can enjoy a movie even as you think about it. 

    I can also see myself planning for a kiss— make sure to avoid seafood that day, ask for permission (either orally or physically,) these are ways the other person is likely to respond, this is how to deal with each of them.* People being analytical doesn’t mean they’re less passionate, just that they don’t lose themselves in passionate movements. 

    The first time, there was almost no passion on my part.  In fact, my first though was, “Huh, this feels kind of weird.”  I needed time to analyze it in my memory, and draw conclusions about how I ought to feel about it.  After that, I had a bit better idea of what was expected of me during such interaction, how I should react, and I did not have to focus as much on analysis having made my reactions more autonomous after properly “programming” my mind for them.  

    That is when I could start enjoying them for the experience they were.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I’ve never kissed anyone, but I think I’ll probably be pretty detatched and thoughtful— maybe even analytical— if I ever do. I get like that when I’m watching movies, and it drives my mother crazy— “Why can’t you just enjoy the movie?” I can’t make her understand that you can enjoy a movie even as you think about it. 

    I can also see myself planning for a kiss— make sure to avoid seafood that day, ask for permission (either orally or physically,) these are ways the other person is likely to respond, this is how to deal with each of them.* People being analytical doesn’t mean they’re less passionate, just that they don’t lose themselves in passionate movements. 

    The first time, there was almost no passion on my part.  In fact, my first though was, “Huh, this feels kind of weird.”  I needed time to analyze it in my memory, and draw conclusions about how I ought to feel about it.  After that, I had a bit better idea of what was expected of me during such interaction, how I should react, and I did not have to focus as much on analysis having made my reactions more autonomous after properly “programming” my mind for them.  

    That is when I could start enjoying them for the experience they were.  

  • Rikalous

    I’m guessing it’s more like how, in “The Stand,” Nadine is
    supernaturally protected so that she can one day be Satan’s Bride or
    something, and come to him as a snowy white virgin, freshness seal
    intact.

    From what I remember, Nadine got a Oujia board communication telling her that she was going to be Flagg’s woman when she was pretty young (early teens, I think). So she actually had a warning.

    Buck I think might be a natural recluse who thinks that Real Men aren’t natural recluses, and compensates with a porn star nickname and a career where he’s supposed to talk to people all the time.

  • Rikalous

    I’m guessing it’s more like how, in “The Stand,” Nadine is
    supernaturally protected so that she can one day be Satan’s Bride or
    something, and come to him as a snowy white virgin, freshness seal
    intact.

    From what I remember, Nadine got a Oujia board communication telling her that she was going to be Flagg’s woman when she was pretty young (early teens, I think). So she actually had a warning.

    Buck I think might be a natural recluse who thinks that Real Men aren’t natural recluses, and compensates with a porn star nickname and a career where he’s supposed to talk to people all the time.

  • Rikalous

    Oh, and if anyone’s ever seen two rabbits fighting, it’s almost
    awe-inspiring. It’s like a Hong Kong kung-fu movie. They charge at each
    other and then jump. Several feet in the air. While kicking at each
    other. Then they repeat. You would honestly never think they could jump
    that high, and the acrobatics and stunts they pull in the air to try and
    land a blow while not being hit would make a Cirque du Soleil performer
    envious.

    Reading Redwall and Watership Down at a young age instilled in me the sure and certain knowledge that rabbits (OK, the Long Patrol is made up of hares, not rabbits. It’s not like I can tell the difference) are not to be fucked with.

  • Rikalous

    Oh, and if anyone’s ever seen two rabbits fighting, it’s almost
    awe-inspiring. It’s like a Hong Kong kung-fu movie. They charge at each
    other and then jump. Several feet in the air. While kicking at each
    other. Then they repeat. You would honestly never think they could jump
    that high, and the acrobatics and stunts they pull in the air to try and
    land a blow while not being hit would make a Cirque du Soleil performer
    envious.

    Reading Redwall and Watership Down at a young age instilled in me the sure and certain knowledge that rabbits (OK, the Long Patrol is made up of hares, not rabbits. It’s not like I can tell the difference) are not to be fucked with.

  • Lonespark

    Me too.  

  • Lonespark

    Me too.  

  • http://dynamicita.tumblr.com Julezyme

    Oy, the conversation between Rayford “Bad Touch” Steele and Chloe squicked me the squick out. I have a pretty open, Our Bodies Ourselves type of relationship with my mom and step-dad and, now that I’m grown up, we talk and even engage in comic banter about relationships and sex. It’s natural! It’s funny! I’m glad i can talk to my parents about this stuff.
    But that conversation left me expecting Rayford to, I don’t know, give Chloe a negligee and the “show her a thing or two” about “how to please a man” … Excuse me while I go gargle the puke out of the back of my throat.

  • http://dynamicita.tumblr.com Julezyme

    Oy, the conversation between Rayford “Bad Touch” Steele and Chloe squicked me the squick out. I have a pretty open, Our Bodies Ourselves type of relationship with my mom and step-dad and, now that I’m grown up, we talk and even engage in comic banter about relationships and sex. It’s natural! It’s funny! I’m glad i can talk to my parents about this stuff.
    But that conversation left me expecting Rayford to, I don’t know, give Chloe a negligee and the “show her a thing or two” about “how to please a man” … Excuse me while I go gargle the puke out of the back of my throat.

  • Dandusk

    It has also been established that the Kleenex theory is irrelevant as Clark doesn’t have to replace every toilet he has ever used. 

    Take THAT Bembridge scholars!…Umm, comic nerd will go back to lurking. *shuffleshuffle*

  • Dandusk

    It has also been established that the Kleenex theory is irrelevant as Clark doesn’t have to replace every toilet he has ever used. 

    Take THAT Bembridge scholars!…Umm, comic nerd will go back to lurking. *shuffleshuffle*

  • http://dynamicita.tumblr.com Julezyme

    Hang on, but Chloe is helping Buck pack up his apartment – so she is there with him alone? In RTCverse, how is that “appropriate”? She and he are unchaperoned in his swinging bachelor pad, with cordless phones humming in every room, and Chloe is lovingly fondling – sorry, folding – sorry, boxing – Buck’s boxers? I thought the whole purity thing was so vigilant because males and females can’t be trusted to be alone for a few minutes without the devil making them rip one another’s clothes off. 

    In which case, was the “appropriate” line ironic? Was that Meta-Chloe popping in for a snarky little dig at the authors? Imagine that line in a Daria voice.

    This is the only explanation I can come up with, because the rest of Chloe’s lines of dialogue (e.g. “Seems to me we’ve already decided”) make me believe that LaJenks have never actually spoken to a 20-year-old woman.

  • http://dynamicita.tumblr.com Julezyme

    Hang on, but Chloe is helping Buck pack up his apartment – so she is there with him alone? In RTCverse, how is that “appropriate”? She and he are unchaperoned in his swinging bachelor pad, with cordless phones humming in every room, and Chloe is lovingly fondling – sorry, folding – sorry, boxing – Buck’s boxers? I thought the whole purity thing was so vigilant because males and females can’t be trusted to be alone for a few minutes without the devil making them rip one another’s clothes off. 

    In which case, was the “appropriate” line ironic? Was that Meta-Chloe popping in for a snarky little dig at the authors? Imagine that line in a Daria voice.

    This is the only explanation I can come up with, because the rest of Chloe’s lines of dialogue (e.g. “Seems to me we’ve already decided”) make me believe that LaJenks have never actually spoken to a 20-year-old woman.

  • Anonymous

    He only converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained or are just supposed to accept it?

    Not really explained. He was just very busy. And, you know, he didn’t want to get a disease.

    Chloe’s virginity does not strike me as unrealistic, given her age and character. Buck’s, given his age and his character is absolutely absurd. Either he has some sort of terrible sexual-function problem that he’s never gotten help for, or he’s lying. This is a man who has sex, not even so much because he’s into women, but because he’s into his ego.

  • Anonymous

    He only converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained or are just supposed to accept it?

    Not really explained. He was just very busy. And, you know, he didn’t want to get a disease.

    Chloe’s virginity does not strike me as unrealistic, given her age and character. Buck’s, given his age and his character is absolutely absurd. Either he has some sort of terrible sexual-function problem that he’s never gotten help for, or he’s lying. This is a man who has sex, not even so much because he’s into women, but because he’s into his ego.

  • Anonymous

    There’s a scene in “Malcolm in the Middle”, where Lois confesses to Hal that she’s afraid that he loves her more than she loves him.

    He looks at her as though she’s crazy, and says, “Of course I do. I have always loved you more than you love me. That’s how it IS.”

    I absolutely love that relationship. It is a great marriage, between two extremely flawed people that somehow just WORKS.

  • Anonymous

    This is a man who has sex, not even so much because he’s into women, but because he’s into his ego.

    Oh, so that’s why he wiped away her tears…because he couldn’t see his reflection in her eyes!

  • Anonymous

    There’s a scene in “Malcolm in the Middle”, where Lois confesses to Hal that she’s afraid that he loves her more than she loves him.

    He looks at her as though she’s crazy, and says, “Of course I do. I have always loved you more than you love me. That’s how it IS.”

    I absolutely love that relationship. It is a great marriage, between two extremely flawed people that somehow just WORKS.

  • Anonymous

    This is a man who has sex, not even so much because he’s into women, but because he’s into his ego.

    Oh, so that’s why he wiped away her tears…because he couldn’t see his reflection in her eyes!

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    I think that, had I not been expecting it [the kiss], I might have reacted a bit more like Chloe did in this scene, recoiling a bit, unsure of myself of how I was supposed to react.

    I know I could have used some advanced warning for my first kiss, especially since apparently she was judging me by my kissing ability. I like to think I would have done a better job, with a little notice of the impending kiss.

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    I think that, had I not been expecting it [the kiss], I might have reacted a bit more like Chloe did in this scene, recoiling a bit, unsure of myself of how I was supposed to react.

    I know I could have used some advanced warning for my first kiss, especially since apparently she was judging me by my kissing ability. I like to think I would have done a better job, with a little notice of the impending kiss.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    It has also been established that the Kleenex theory is irrelevant as Clark doesn’t have to replace every toilet he has ever used.  

    The common explanation that I have heard is that his super strength only applies to his skeletal muscles.  His secondary muscles are not much different from human norm.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    It has also been established that the Kleenex theory is irrelevant as Clark doesn’t have to replace every toilet he has ever used.  

    The common explanation that I have heard is that his super strength only applies to his skeletal muscles.  His secondary muscles are not much different from human norm.

  • Julezyme

    Haha, I just remembered my first kiss, which was during a game of spin-the-bottle or truth-or-dare at a party on the last day of eighth grade. My only thought was, Gah! Weird! Was that a tongue?!
    Oh dear. That just made me remember my second kiss: I was fourteen and he was kind of annoying, but he’d felt me up while we were watching a movie and that had felt pretty good, and so I figured I had to kiss him afterwards or else I would be “skipping bases” and that would be somehow mathematically wrong. My only thought was, “Huh. Tastebuds. That’s what those are.”
    Kisses three and four were similarly detached experiences, at least at first, with a theme of “There is a lot of spit on my chin, that doesn’t seem right.”
    Yeah, it really took a bit of practice, both on my part and on the parts of the fifteen-t-seventeen-year-old virgin boys I was kissing before I could really get into it. 
    Having gotten married, all I can say is: if, after all the brouhaha of the wedding, if as the culmination of the assorted related world- and paradigm-shifting events associated with marriage, if at the end of that very long day of posing for pictures with seldom-seen relatives and childhood friends, if I had retired to my bridal suite (stone cold sober? i shudder to think) and, finally permitted by my god and my community to explore physical intimacy with my young love, if what had awaited me could be summed up as: “Gah! Tastebuds! Slobber?! Noses?” – well, frankly, I think I might have checked out early and gone back home. Sheesh.

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    Gdwarf

    Sounds like our rabbit, Shadow. The cats are terrified of her. We figure its because she was raised as an only animal, and so doesn’t know how to react. Plus, the cats don’t know how to handle a “prey” animal who insists on chasing them.

  • Julezyme

    Haha, I just remembered my first kiss, which was during a game of spin-the-bottle or truth-or-dare at a party on the last day of eighth grade. My only thought was, Gah! Weird! Was that a tongue?!
    Oh dear. That just made me remember my second kiss: I was fourteen and he was kind of annoying, but he’d felt me up while we were watching a movie and that had felt pretty good, and so I figured I had to kiss him afterwards or else I would be “skipping bases” and that would be somehow mathematically wrong. My only thought was, “Huh. Tastebuds. That’s what those are.”
    Kisses three and four were similarly detached experiences, at least at first, with a theme of “There is a lot of spit on my chin, that doesn’t seem right.”
    Yeah, it really took a bit of practice, both on my part and on the parts of the fifteen-t-seventeen-year-old virgin boys I was kissing before I could really get into it. 
    Having gotten married, all I can say is: if, after all the brouhaha of the wedding, if as the culmination of the assorted related world- and paradigm-shifting events associated with marriage, if at the end of that very long day of posing for pictures with seldom-seen relatives and childhood friends, if I had retired to my bridal suite (stone cold sober? i shudder to think) and, finally permitted by my god and my community to explore physical intimacy with my young love, if what had awaited me could be summed up as: “Gah! Tastebuds! Slobber?! Noses?” – well, frankly, I think I might have checked out early and gone back home. Sheesh.

  • http://guy-who-reads.blogspot.com/ Mike Timonin

    Gdwarf

    Sounds like our rabbit, Shadow. The cats are terrified of her. We figure its because she was raised as an only animal, and so doesn’t know how to react. Plus, the cats don’t know how to handle a “prey” animal who insists on chasing them.

  • Julezyme

    So Nadine had no agency to change or avoid her fate?

  • Julezyme

    So Nadine had no agency to change or avoid her fate?

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    This is a man who has sex, not even so much because he’s into women, but because he’s into his ego.

    It strikes me that it has been my observation that the men who have the most number of partners tend to have the biggest egos, with the former case being the motivator for the later case.  Less because they measure success by the number of women that they sleep with, and more because, while their self-confidence tends to win them dates in the short term, their selfishness and arrogance tend to make such relationships very short lived.  

    If he was a more humble man, his virginity would be more believable.  Particularly as his “kiss her and not want to stick around for the aftermath” approach coupled with his globe-trotting lifestyle would have given him ample opportunities for quick flings over the years without necessarily getting in the way of the career he is so dedicated to (up until the point he enters the books of course, at which point he could care less about actually doing the job he is paid for.)  

  • Rikalous

    It has also been established that the Kleenex theory is irrelevant as
    Clark doesn’t have to replace every toilet he has ever used.

    I was going to debate the comparison, but I realize that comparing and contrasting the involuntary muscle movements of defecation versus copulation could go to an awfully squicky place, even considering the squickiness of the post we’re responding to.

    Well, some of us are responding to it. Others are talking about vicious rabbits with nasty sharp teeth. 

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    This is a man who has sex, not even so much because he’s into women, but because he’s into his ego.

    It strikes me that it has been my observation that the (heterosexual) men who have the most number of partners tend to have the biggest egos, with the former case being the motivator for the later case.  Less because they measure success by the number of women that they sleep with, and more because, while their self-confidence tends to win them dates in the short term, their selfishness and arrogance tend to make such relationships very short lived.  

    If he was a more humble man, his virginity would be more believable.  Particularly as his “kiss her and not want to stick around for the aftermath” approach coupled with his globe-trotting lifestyle would have given him ample opportunities for quick flings over the years without necessarily getting in the way of the career he is so dedicated to (up until the point he enters the books of course, at which point he could care less about actually doing the job he is paid for.)

  • Rikalous

    It has also been established that the Kleenex theory is irrelevant as
    Clark doesn’t have to replace every toilet he has ever used.

    I was going to debate the comparison, but I realize that comparing and contrasting the involuntary muscle movements of defecation versus copulation could go to an awfully squicky place, even considering the squickiness of the post we’re responding to.

    Well, some of us are responding to it. Others are talking about vicious rabbits with nasty sharp teeth. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jonathan-Pelikan/100000903137143 Jonathan Pelikan

    If any situation ever comes to a place where it could be fairly described as ‘we either do or we die’, the entire Tribulation Force is so beyond screwed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jonathan-Pelikan/100000903137143 Jonathan Pelikan

    If any situation ever comes to a place where it could be fairly described as ‘we either do or we die’, the entire Tribulation Force is so beyond screwed.

  • Julezyme

    The Buck-Chloe Love Revelation scene made me think of It’s A Wonderful Life and other “I love you, damn it” scenes of that kind. Conflicted emotion, anger even, at the intrusion of these undeniable feelings that are threatening to derail their lives – especially in this time of darkness, where anyone one could die and they need to be saving their energy for stockpiling canned goods against the forces of evil. Damn you, Chloe, and damn me, and damn this overwhelming need I have to be with you, damn this joy that lights me up like a bonfire and makes me want to dance even though I know that all around me is danger and darkness, and I can’t allow myself to have any weaknesses that Carpathia could use against me, no one he could hurt or threaten to get at me if I blow my cover – I didn’t want to fall in love with you, I want to beg you not to love me, but dear God, I can’t let go …

    Could it be evidence of … Meta-Buck?!?!

    (Or just the same old skeevy control-freak borderline-abusive narcissistic closet-case we know and mock?)

  • Julezyme

    The Buck-Chloe Love Revelation scene made me think of It’s A Wonderful Life and other “I love you, damn it” scenes of that kind. Conflicted emotion, anger even, at the intrusion of these undeniable feelings that are threatening to derail their lives – especially in this time of darkness, where anyone one could die and they need to be saving their energy for stockpiling canned goods against the forces of evil. Damn you, Chloe, and damn me, and damn this overwhelming need I have to be with you, damn this joy that lights me up like a bonfire and makes me want to dance even though I know that all around me is danger and darkness, and I can’t allow myself to have any weaknesses that Carpathia could use against me, no one he could hurt or threaten to get at me if I blow my cover – I didn’t want to fall in love with you, I want to beg you not to love me, but dear God, I can’t let go …

    Could it be evidence of … Meta-Buck?!?!

    (Or just the same old skeevy control-freak borderline-abusive narcissistic closet-case we know and mock?)

  • Anonymous

    Well, okay, but he’s never kissed anyone? Ever?

    He only
    converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very
    well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained
    or are just supposed to accept it?

    Maybe he had some kind of problem that made nobody want to kiss him.  I could be charitable and blame it on bad breath or something, but it was probably just his dull personality that guaranteed his lips would stay virgins until this time.

  • Anonymous

    Well, okay, but he’s never kissed anyone? Ever?

    He only
    converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very
    well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained
    or are just supposed to accept it?

    Maybe he had some kind of problem that made nobody want to kiss him.  I could be charitable and blame it on bad breath or something, but it was probably just his dull personality that guaranteed his lips would stay virgins until this time.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    The Buck-Chloe Love Revelation scene made me think of It’s A Wonderful Life and other “I love you, damn it” scenes of that kind. Conflicted emotion, anger even, at the intrusion of these undeniable feelings that are threatening to derail their lives – especially in this time of darkness, where anyone one could die and they need to be saving their energy for stockpiling canned goods against the forces of evil. Damn you, Chloe, and damn me, and damn this overwhelming need I have to be with you, damn this joy that lights me up like a bonfire and makes me want to dance even though I know that all around me is danger and darkness, and I can’t allow myself to have any weaknesses that Carpathia could use against me, no one he could hurt or threaten to get at me if I blow my cover – I didn’t want to fall in love with you, I want to beg you not to love me, but dear God, I can’t let go …

    I get the impression that this is actually the default state of emotions between Real True Christians who have an attraction to one another.  Always tempted, wanting to be close to them but feeling agonized at their desire to sin, constantly worried that it might not be what God wants of them, and perhaps even blaming the focus of their desires for inflaming the wretched desires in the first place.  

    … actually, come to think of it, that pent up frustration explains a lot of their bellicose political determination.  I know I might feel resentful at anyone not suffering under the same strictures that I feel pressured to conform to.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    The Buck-Chloe Love Revelation scene made me think of It’s A Wonderful Life and other “I love you, damn it” scenes of that kind. Conflicted emotion, anger even, at the intrusion of these undeniable feelings that are threatening to derail their lives – especially in this time of darkness, where anyone one could die and they need to be saving their energy for stockpiling canned goods against the forces of evil. Damn you, Chloe, and damn me, and damn this overwhelming need I have to be with you, damn this joy that lights me up like a bonfire and makes me want to dance even though I know that all around me is danger and darkness, and I can’t allow myself to have any weaknesses that Carpathia could use against me, no one he could hurt or threaten to get at me if I blow my cover – I didn’t want to fall in love with you, I want to beg you not to love me, but dear God, I can’t let go …

    I get the impression that this is actually the default state of emotions between Real True Christians who have an attraction to one another.  Always tempted, wanting to be close to them but feeling agonized at their desire to sin, constantly worried that it might not be what God wants of them, and perhaps even blaming the focus of their desires for inflaming the wretched desires in the first place.  

    … actually, come to think of it, that pent up frustration explains a lot of their bellicose political determination.  I know I might feel resentful at anyone not suffering under the same strictures that I feel pressured to conform to.  

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    LMM22: If nobody else will beta, I can look. I usually post there under Apocalypse Review ( ask Mouse over on Mouse’s musings for my e-mail or comment on my blog to get in touch with me).

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    LMM22: If nobody else will beta, I can look. I usually post there under Apocalypse Review ( ask Mouse over on Mouse’s musings for my e-mail or comment on my blog to get in touch with me).

  • Emcee, cubed

    Didn’t someone (Chloe, I assume, since I can’t imagine him telling anyone else) put forth the idea that Buck was still a virgin because God arranged it that way, so Buck would be pure and could still be saved after the Rapture, or some ridiculous nonsense like that? Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

  • Emcee, cubed

    Didn’t someone (Chloe, I assume, since I can’t imagine him telling anyone else) put forth the idea that Buck was still a virgin because God arranged it that way, so Buck would be pure and could still be saved after the Rapture, or some ridiculous nonsense like that? Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

  • Anonymous

    He only converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained or are just supposed to accept it?
     

    “I have to say I’m more grateful than proud. My reasons were not as pure as they would be today. I mean, I know it would have been wrong to sleep around, but I didn’t abstain out of any sense of morality. When I had opportunities, I wasn’t interested. And I was so focused on my studies and my future, I didn’t have that many opportunities. Truth is, people always assumed I got around because I ran in pretty fast circles. But I was backward when it came to stuff like that. Kind of conservative.”
     
    Tribulation Force, pp 200-201

     

    He still enjoyed dating, but he ran from any girlfriend or even acquaintance who hinted at caring for him in a real way. Girl pals accused him of fear of commitment. Maybe they were right, but he didn’t think so. He had a one-track mind; that was all.
     
    The Regime, p 109

     
    IIRC later in Prequel #2, Buck briefly dates a coed at Harvard, but she breaks it off when she realizes that she’ll take a back seat to his career.

  • Anonymous

    He only converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained or are just supposed to accept it?
     

    “I have to say I’m more grateful than proud. My reasons were not as pure as they would be today. I mean, I know it would have been wrong to sleep around, but I didn’t abstain out of any sense of morality. When I had opportunities, I wasn’t interested. And I was so focused on my studies and my future, I didn’t have that many opportunities. Truth is, people always assumed I got around because I ran in pretty fast circles. But I was backward when it came to stuff like that. Kind of conservative.”
     
    Tribulation Force, pp 200-201

     

    He still enjoyed dating, but he ran from any girlfriend or even acquaintance who hinted at caring for him in a real way. Girl pals accused him of fear of commitment. Maybe they were right, but he didn’t think so. He had a one-track mind; that was all.
     
    The Regime, p 109

     
    IIRC later in Prequel #2, Buck briefly dates a coed at Harvard, but she breaks it off when she realizes that she’ll take a back seat to his career.

  • Anonymous

    He only converted to Christianity in the last book. I remember that part very well! Why was he living like a monk before that? Was it ever explained or are just supposed to accept it?
     

    “I have to say I’m more grateful than proud. My reasons were not as pure as they would be today. I mean, I know it would have been wrong to sleep around, but I didn’t abstain out of any sense of morality. When I had opportunities, I wasn’t interested. And I was so focused on my studies and my future, I didn’t have that many opportunities. Truth is, people always assumed I got around because I ran in pretty fast circles. But I was backward when it came to stuff like that. Kind of conservative.”
     
    Tribulation Force, pp 200-201

     

    He still enjoyed dating, but he ran from any girlfriend or even acquaintance who hinted at caring for him in a real way. Girl pals accused him of fear of commitment. Maybe they were right, but he didn’t think so. He had a one-track mind; that was all.
     
    The Regime, p 109

     
    IIRC later in Prequel #2, Buck briefly dates a coed at Harvard, but she breaks it off when she realizes that she’ll take a back seat to his career.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Didn’t someone (Chloe, I assume, since I can’t imagine him telling anyone else) put forth the idea that Buck was still a virgin because God arranged it that way, so Buck would be pure and could still be saved after the Rapture, or some ridiculous nonsense like that? Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

    Would it have been so hard for them to work in a little extra background for him that allowed him a more plausible reason for his reluctance to have sex or enter into a relationship and his intense focus on his work?  Like, maybe had him get married in college to his high school sweetheart, only to have her tragically killed in a random accident in his first year or two after college graduation.  Grief stricken, he throws himself into his work with more vigor than before, desperately hoping that the hustle and bustle of it would distract him from what he is feeling.  Even with less time for relationships, he never felt quite right pursuing them.  It never felt like enough time had passed, and any time he got close to someone, it only reminded him of his late beloved wife.  He felt locked out of the loop, his chance for love had come and gone and pass him by… 

    … until he met Chloe.  

    That would have given a much more fleshed out explanation of his behavior.  Sure, it implies that he was not a virgin, but nothing he did was actually sinful or immoral, and it happened without necessarily being part of an RTC value system in his pre-conversion days.  Further, it gives us some goddamn sympathy for him, maybe suggesting that his jerkass behavior was something of a defense mechanism he threw up to keep people from getting close to him again, because he could not stand to be hurt like he was.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Didn’t someone (Chloe, I assume, since I can’t imagine him telling anyone else) put forth the idea that Buck was still a virgin because God arranged it that way, so Buck would be pure and could still be saved after the Rapture, or some ridiculous nonsense like that? Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

    Would it have been so hard for them to work in a little extra background for him that allowed him a more plausible reason for his reluctance to have sex or enter into a relationship and his intense focus on his work?  Like, maybe had him get married in college to his high school sweetheart, only to have her tragically killed in a random accident in his first year or two after college graduation.  Grief stricken, he throws himself into his work with more vigor than before, desperately hoping that the hustle and bustle of it would distract him from what he is feeling.  Even with less time for relationships, he never felt quite right pursuing them.  It never felt like enough time had passed, and any time he got close to someone, it only reminded him of his late beloved wife.  He felt locked out of the loop, his chance for love had come and gone and pass him by… 

    … until he met Chloe.  

    That would have given a much more fleshed out explanation of his behavior.  Sure, it implies that he was not a virgin, but nothing he did was actually sinful or immoral, and it happened without necessarily being part of an RTC value system in his pre-conversion days.  Further, it gives us some goddamn sympathy for him, maybe suggesting that his jerkass behavior was something of a defense mechanism he threw up to keep people from getting close to him again, because he could not stand to be hurt like he was.  

  • Anonymous

    In which case, was the “appropriate” line ironic? Was that Meta-Chloe
    popping in for a snarky little dig at the authors? Imagine that line in a
    Daria voice.

    I think irony is beyond the skill level of L&J.

  • Anonymous

    In which case, was the “appropriate” line ironic? Was that Meta-Chloe
    popping in for a snarky little dig at the authors? Imagine that line in a
    Daria voice.

    I think irony is beyond the skill level of L&J.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    He still enjoyed dating, but he ran from any girlfriend or even acquaintance who hinted at caring for him in a real way. Girl pals accused him of fear of commitment. Maybe they were right, but he didn’t think so. He had a one-track mind; that was all.

    The Regime, p 109

    I am guessing that L&J never heard the terms “one night stand” and “friends with benefits.”  Sexuality need not necessarily involve commitments.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    He still enjoyed dating, but he ran from any girlfriend or even acquaintance who hinted at caring for him in a real way. Girl pals accused him of fear of commitment. Maybe they were right, but he didn’t think so. He had a one-track mind; that was all.

    The Regime, p 109

    I am guessing that L&J never heard the terms “one night stand” and “friends with benefits.”  Sexuality need not necessarily involve commitments.  

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    I’m also wondering if the kids who grew up with Byrne’s version will eventually retcon everything back to that when they start writing.

    I think stuff like this is part of the reason I’ve become so apathetic about the Big Two’s superhero comics – sometimes it feels like I’m reading a combination of fanfic of fanfic of fanfic of fanfic of once-original characters, and the rest of the time it feels like the writers are grudgingly obeying the dictates of the marketing department.  

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    I’m also wondering if the kids who grew up with Byrne’s version will eventually retcon everything back to that when they start writing.

    I think stuff like this is part of the reason I’ve become so apathetic about the Big Two’s superhero comics – sometimes it feels like I’m reading a combination of fanfic of fanfic of fanfic of fanfic of once-original characters, and the rest of the time it feels like the writers are grudgingly obeying the dictates of the marketing department.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I think stuff like this is part of the reason I’ve become so apathetic about the Big Two’s superhero comics – sometimes it feels like I’m reading a combination of fanfic of fanfic of fanfic of fanfic of once-original characters, and the rest of the time it feels like the writers are grudgingly obeying the dictates of the marketing department.

    My parents never bought me comics when I was a kid, but I still followed them as well as I could from the outside.  However, I lost interest in it in the mid-nineties due to Continuity Lockout, and I never tried getting into them later due to the prevalence of Running the Asylum going on.  

  • Randy Owens

    Proverbs 5:19: Rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe.

    Of course, the literalists would say that that’s not about anything as depraved as sexual relationships between a man and a woman.  It’s just bestiality.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I think stuff like this is part of the reason I’ve become so apathetic about the Big Two’s superhero comics – sometimes it feels like I’m reading a combination of fanfic of fanfic of fanfic of fanfic of once-original characters, and the rest of the time it feels like the writers are grudgingly obeying the dictates of the marketing department.

    My parents never bought me comics when I was a kid, but I still followed them as well as I could from the outside.  However, I lost interest in it in the mid-nineties due to Continuity Lockout, and I never tried getting into them later due to the prevalence of Running the Asylum going on.  

  • Randy Owens

    Proverbs 5:19: Rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe.

    Of course, the literalists would say that that’s not about anything as depraved as sexual relationships between a man and a woman.  It’s just bestiality.

  • Anonymous

     

    was going to debate the comparison, but I realize that comparing and contrasting the involuntary muscle movements of defecation versus copulation could go to an awfully squicky place, even considering the squickiness of the post we’re responding to

    There is an excellent graphic novel called “The Pro”, in which a single mom/waitress/prostitute is granted superpowers, and recruited by a Justice-League-of-America type team. 

    At one point, the Superman-type on the team saves her son from a bad guy, and she offers him a blow job as a gesture of thanks. 

    His, er, seed, ends up ripping the wing off a plane passing over head, and he has to fly with his pants around his ankles to save it.

    I have no idea why I’m telling you this, except that it is actually a really, really good story, and I recommend it.

  • Anonymous

     

    was going to debate the comparison, but I realize that comparing and contrasting the involuntary muscle movements of defecation versus copulation could go to an awfully squicky place, even considering the squickiness of the post we’re responding to

    There is an excellent graphic novel called “The Pro”, in which a single mom/waitress/prostitute is granted superpowers, and recruited by a Justice-League-of-America type team. 

    At one point, the Superman-type on the team saves her son from a bad guy, and she offers him a blow job as a gesture of thanks. 

    His, er, seed, ends up ripping the wing off a plane passing over head, and he has to fly with his pants around his ankles to save it.

    I have no idea why I’m telling you this, except that it is actually a really, really good story, and I recommend it.

  • Anonymous

     

    Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

    I’m not a Christian, but isn’t there some concept in the faith that you can change your ways, and put aside your sins, and be forgiven for them, or something sort of like that?

  • Anonymous

     

    Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

    I’m not a Christian, but isn’t there some concept in the faith that you can change your ways, and put aside your sins, and be forgiven for them, or something sort of like that?

  • Anonymous

    RTC metamorphosis

    “As Chloe Steele awoke one morning from uneasy dreams she found herself
    transformed in her bed into an evangelical Christian.”

  • Anonymous

    RTC metamorphosis

    “As Chloe Steele awoke one morning from uneasy dreams she found herself transformed in her bed into an evangelical Christian.”

  • Lori

     I’m not a Christian, but isn’t there some concept in the faith that you can change your ways, and put aside your sins, and be forgiven for them, or something sort of like that?  

    Yes, but RTCs tend to have a very uneasy relationship to the whole business. Fred wrote a post at one time about the weird push-pull of wanting to claim to be so holier than thou while also wanting to claim to have been terrible before being saved. When you throw in the fact that most RTCs were raised RTC and got saved before puberty things just get really odd. 

    Buck and Chloe’s pre-martial virginity makes no sense within the story or within any reasonable version of Christianity. It’s there only to meet the requirements of the Tydale author guidelines which were crafted to guarantee that no Tydale book will offend the most easily offended person in the target audience. 

    This strange chastity is actually is actually not that unusual in inspirational romance. The author guidelines for Christian romance novels would be funny if they weren’t so weird. Some language (probably German) has a word for the mixture of sadness and horror they invoke. 

    Note: I don’t read them because I’m not a fan of god in my romance novels, but from what I’ve seen actual Inspirational romances are far better written the LB. I actually have real admiration for any writer who can produce a compelling story within the guidelines. There’s real skill at work there. 

  • Lori

     I’m not a Christian, but isn’t there some concept in the faith that you can change your ways, and put aside your sins, and be forgiven for them, or something sort of like that?  

    Yes, but RTCs tend to have a very uneasy relationship to the whole business. Fred wrote a post at one time about the weird push-pull of wanting to claim to be so holier than thou while also wanting to claim to have been terrible before being saved. When you throw in the fact that most RTCs were raised RTC and got saved before puberty things just get really odd. 

    Buck and Chloe’s pre-martial virginity makes no sense within the story or within any reasonable version of Christianity. It’s there only to meet the requirements of the Tydale author guidelines which were crafted to guarantee that no Tydale book will offend the most easily offended person in the target audience. 

    This strange chastity is actually not that unusual in inspirational romance. The author guidelines for Christian romance novels would be funny if they weren’t so weird. Some language (probably German) must have a word for the mixture of sadness and horror they invoke. 

    Note: I don’t read them because I’m not a fan of god in my romance novels, but from what I’ve seen actual Inspirational romances are far better written the LB. I actually have real admiration for any writer who can produce a compelling story within the guidelines. There’s real skill at work there.

  • Anon

    This talk about deadly lagomorphs reminds me of the Youtube video, Snake Vs. Rabbit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ez5QPW-ku4

  • Anon

    This talk about deadly lagomorphs reminds me of the Youtube video, Snake Vs. Rabbit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ez5QPW-ku4

  • Lori

    Did I miss it or have we actually gotten this far in a conversation about deadly rabbits without anyone mentioning Night of the Lepus?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s9nKzmbndA&NR=1

  • Lori

    Did I miss it or have we actually gotten this far in a conversation about deadly rabbits without anyone mentioning Night of the Lepus?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s9nKzmbndA&NR=1

  • Anonymous

    J’adore that movie so, so, so much.

    It’s one of the very, very few bad movies I’ve seen where it’s obvious that absolutely no one is really trying. Usually someone, anyone, involved with such a film will clearly be giving it their all: Directors trying new and novel techniques, actors excited about their first speaking role, cinematographers trying desperately to save the production by tilting the camera to 45 degrees every five seconds…but not here. They all know just how stupid this is. Still, DeForest Kelly gives it a decent effort.

    I think the part that completely sealed the deal for me was when they decided to have a bunch of rabbits run across a miniature of the town…in slow motion to try and make them look larger.

    Either that or the red food colouring on their noses to show that they’d mauled people to death.

  • Anonymous

    J’adore that movie so, so, so much.

    It’s one of the very, very few bad movies I’ve seen where it’s obvious that absolutely no one is really trying. Usually someone, anyone, involved with such a film will clearly be giving it their all: Directors trying new and novel techniques, actors excited about their first speaking role, cinematographers trying desperately to save the production by tilting the camera to 45 degrees every five seconds…but not here. They all know just how stupid this is. Still, DeForest Kelly gives it a decent effort.

    I think the part that completely sealed the deal for me was when they decided to have a bunch of rabbits run across a miniature of the town…in slow motion to try and make them look larger.

    Either that or the red food colouring on their noses to show that they’d mauled people to death.

  • Rikalous

    So Nadine had no agency to change or avoid her fate?

    IIRC, she had the creepy Ouija board contact before she’d had much time to be interested in boys, and decided that she was going to do as the magic man requested and stay chaste for him. Some years later, the apocalyptic superdisease hits and the main action of the book begins. Nadine falls in with some survivors, and they make their way to a survivor city. She falls for one of the survivors, but by the time she makes her intentions clear, he already has a love interest that he’s bound and determined to stay faithful to. So Nadine, distraught, rides off into the desert, where she has a malefic vision that bleaches her hair and makes her completely dedicated to doing Flagg’s will.

    Yeah, she got a mother of a raw deal.

  • Rikalous

    So Nadine had no agency to change or avoid her fate?

    IIRC, she had the creepy Ouija board contact before she’d had much time to be interested in boys, and decided that she was going to do as the magic man requested and stay chaste for him. Some years later, the apocalyptic superdisease hits and the main action of the book begins. Nadine falls in with some survivors, and they make their way to a survivor city. She falls for one of the survivors, but by the time she makes her intentions clear, he already has a love interest that he’s bound and determined to stay faithful to. So Nadine, distraught, rides off into the desert, where she has a malefic vision that bleaches her hair and makes her completely dedicated to doing Flagg’s will.

    Yeah, she got a mother of a raw deal.

  • Mark Z.

    I am guessing that L&J never heard the terms “one night stand” and “friends with benefits.”

    The language there suggests a different problem: Their understanding of mainstream, non-Gothardite, non-evangelical-ghetto sex and/or romance comes from romantic comedies and women’s magazines where “fear of commitment” is a stock phrase for “whatever it is that’s wrong with men that makes them not want to marry me already, damn you“. Sometimes it’s that the man is stringing her along; sometimes the woman who’s complaining about it is insisting that the relationship go somewhere that he never wanted and never said he wanted; and in almost every case she could solve this problem by either just having a conversation about it or (more drastically) buying him a ring. But she comes from a culture where women aren’t supposed to take such an active role in determining the future of the relationship, so Drama ensues.

    I don’t think this scenario is all that common*, but it is highly represented in popular culture, and if you live in a bubble and get all your ideas about the wider culture from the movies, you might think “fear of commitment” is the most likely reason for a man in his late twenties to still be single.

    I mean, I read that description of him (“enjoyed dating, but ran from [having a girlfriend]“) and see “sociopathic jerk who is fine with using women for sex but would rather not talk to them, and cannot be counted on to care if they die in a fire a week later”. But that’s just me.

    A special award for “Maybe they were right, but he didn’t think so.” as the most flaccid and pathetic sentence ever to make it into a professionally published work.

    * Though that might be a “nobody I know voted for Nixon” sort of thing.

  • Mark Z.

    I am guessing that L&J never heard the terms “one night stand” and “friends with benefits.”

    The language there suggests a different problem: Their understanding of mainstream, non-Gothardite, non-evangelical-ghetto sex and/or romance comes from romantic comedies and women’s magazines where “fear of commitment” is a stock phrase for “whatever it is that’s wrong with men that makes them not want to marry me already, damn you“. Sometimes it’s that the man is stringing her along; sometimes the woman who’s complaining about it is insisting that the relationship go somewhere that he never wanted and never said he wanted; and in almost every case she could solve this problem by either just having a conversation about it or (more drastically) buying him a ring. But she comes from a culture where women aren’t supposed to take such an active role in determining the future of the relationship, so Drama ensues.

    I don’t think this scenario is all that common*, but it is highly represented in popular culture, and if you live in a bubble and get all your ideas about the wider culture from the movies, you might think “fear of commitment” is the most likely reason for a man in his late twenties to still be single.

    I mean, I read that description of him (“enjoyed dating, but ran from [having a girlfriend]“) and see “sociopathic jerk who is fine with using women for sex but would rather not talk to them, and cannot be counted on to care if they die in a fire a week later”. But that’s just me.

    A special award for “Maybe they were right, but he didn’t think so.” as the most flaccid and pathetic sentence ever to make it into a professionally published work.

    * Though that might be a “nobody I know voted for Nixon” sort of thing.

  • Kukulkan

    Jon Maki wrote:

    It seems that Clark Kent Superboy is gone again – in Action #1 (the new one), which is about Superman in his earliest days, he’s much more like the original Golden Age version -  but it’s always possible that he could be retconned back in.

    Given all the publicity, I picked up some of the new DC #1s. The comic shop was sold out of a whole bunch of them, so I guess DC’s relaunch is going well.

    I really liked Action Comics #1, but then I’ve always liked the early “Champion of the Oppressed” version of Superman. Given that we haven’t seen that version for close to seventy years makes it all new and fresh again.

    On that note, I always liked the early Sunday strip — the second in the “Twenty-Four Hours to Ruin” sequence — in which Superman is trying to convince a bank manager to advance a loan to a desperate logger who needs the money to hire lumberjacks to cut his trees and get them to the mill before some deadline. “Nice bank you’ve got here…” he says to the bank manager while hoisting a safe with one hand. “It would be a pity if something happened to it.” I remember just going into shock when I first read that panel. Th-that’s not Superman! I thought. He doesn’t say things like that. Ahh… but it is. And he does.

    However, it seems Grant Morrison (the writer) is the only one who got the memo that this is a relaunch. Most of the other titles are full of references to past continuity that I neither know nor care about. There may be a few others — Superboy and OMAC are full of elements that may be mysteries that will be cleared up as the stories unfold or may be references to past continuity. I’m hoping it’s the former, but I’m resigned to it being the later.

    In any case, there is a lot of hate out there for the Byrne Era among the decision-makers, especially from Johns.

    If there’s one thing that keeps me from reading most superhero comics these days — well, except for the Johnny DC line; I liked Superman Adventures, Batman Adventures, Teen Titans Go!, Billy Batson and the Power of Shazam! and currently Batman: the Brave and the Bold — it’s these absurd continuity wars. Seriously, it’s ridiculous.

    Someone doesn’t like what some previous writer did, so they do a story to undo that, then someone else writes a story to undo the undo, then a peace-maker comes along and writes a story that tries to reconcile all the different versions, but just makes the whole thing hideously complicated. It seems that all what most superhero comics are about these days is what was in previous issues. There’s no point of reference to anything outside that bubble. Nothing for anyone who’s not into creator feuds and obscure references to connect to.

    I hope DC uses this relaunch as an opportunity to put an editorial foot down and end all this nonsense.

    How about just telling stories about the characters. And dealing with past stories you don’t like by just not mentioning them.

    (Secret Origins also made it abundantly clear that Johns has a special hatred for Lois.

    How can someone employed to write a commercial character like Superman hate one of the core characters of the strip? This makes no sense whatsoever. And even if they do, how could they let that attitude seep into their work? It sounds like professionally published fanfic. It’s certainly not how a professional writer behaves.

    This makes Jerry Jenkins look good.

  • Kukulkan

    Jon Maki wrote:

    It seems that Clark Kent Superboy is gone again – in Action #1 (the new one), which is about Superman in his earliest days, he’s much more like the original Golden Age version -  but it’s always possible that he could be retconned back in.

    Given all the publicity, I picked up some of the new DC #1s. The comic shop was sold out of a whole bunch of them, so I guess DC’s relaunch is going well.

    I really liked Action Comics #1, but then I’ve always liked the early “Champion of the Oppressed” version of Superman. Given that we haven’t seen that version for close to seventy years makes it all new and fresh again.

    On that note, I always liked the early Sunday strip — the second in the “Twenty-Four Hours to Ruin” sequence — in which Superman is trying to convince a bank manager to advance a loan to a desperate logger who needs the money to hire lumberjacks to cut his trees and get them to the mill before some deadline. “Nice bank you’ve got here…” he says to the bank manager while hoisting a safe with one hand. “It would be a pity if something happened to it.” I remember just going into shock when I first read that panel. Th-that’s not Superman! I thought. He doesn’t say things like that. Ahh… but it is. And he does.

    However, it seems Grant Morrison (the writer) is the only one who got the memo that this is a relaunch. Most of the other titles are full of references to past continuity that I neither know nor care about. There may be a few others — Superboy and OMAC are full of elements that may be mysteries that will be cleared up as the stories unfold or may be references to past continuity. I’m hoping it’s the former, but I’m resigned to it being the later.

    In any case, there is a lot of hate out there for the Byrne Era among the decision-makers, especially from Johns.

    If there’s one thing that keeps me from reading most superhero comics these days — well, except for the Johnny DC line; I liked Superman Adventures, Batman Adventures, Teen Titans Go!, Billy Batson and the Power of Shazam! and currently Batman: the Brave and the Bold — it’s these absurd continuity wars. Seriously, it’s ridiculous.

    Someone doesn’t like what some previous writer did, so they do a story to undo that, then someone else writes a story to undo the undo, then a peace-maker comes along and writes a story that tries to reconcile all the different versions, but just makes the whole thing hideously complicated. It seems that all what most superhero comics are about these days is what was in previous issues. There’s no point of reference to anything outside that bubble. Nothing for anyone who’s not into creator feuds and obscure references to connect to.

    I hope DC uses this relaunch as an opportunity to put an editorial foot down and end all this nonsense.

    How about just telling stories about the characters. And dealing with past stories you don’t like by just not mentioning them.

    (Secret Origins also made it abundantly clear that Johns has a special hatred for Lois.

    How can someone employed to write a commercial character like Superman hate one of the core characters of the strip? This makes no sense whatsoever. And even if they do, how could they let that attitude seep into their work? It sounds like professionally published fanfic. It’s certainly not how a professional writer behaves.

    This makes Jerry Jenkins look good.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Speaking of “crying and can’t breathe”, Google this term:

    “World War 1 Simple Version”

    I woke my roomie laughing at that SO HARD.

    /thread drift.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Speaking of “crying and can’t breathe”, Google this term:

    “World War 1 Simple Version”

    I woke my roomie laughing at that SO HARD.

    /thread drift.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Speaking of “crying and can’t breathe”, Google this term:

    “World War 1 Simple Version”

    I woke my roomie laughing at that SO HARD.

    /thread drift.

  • Kukulkan

    Ken wrote:

    Donald Westlake wrote a scene once – I think it was in Dancing Aztecs but don’t quote me – where two people were about to make love.  He broke out of the narrative to address the reader directly, writing something like,

    Some authors in this situation now go into great detail about each action that John and Mary take over the next hour.  Strangely, these same authors would never do this in any other situation.  They would not for example write,

    The basic rule is: if there’s an interest, there’s porn for it.

    I have a friend who’s into military hardware and he gets magazines full of big, glossy pictures of guns and tanks and ships and planes, with articles describing them in loving detail and speculating on how they would function in some hypothetical battlefield. I’m hard pressed to come up with any name for it except weapon porn.

    Westlake’s comments are valid to a point, but one of the things that distinguishes one genre from another is what type of sequences get treated in detail and what type get glossed over.

    Since Westlake wasn’t writing erotica, it’s perfectly valid of him to gloss over the lovemaking by saying ‘John and Mary made love.’ Since he was writing crime novels, he would spend much more time and detail on the planning and execution of a particular caper.

    In an episode of House MD, if someone gets injured while committing a crime, you don’t expect the show to spend all that much time on the details of the crime, but you do expect them to focus on the details of the diagnosis and treatment of the injury. By contrast, if someone gets injured while committing a crime in one of Westlake’s novels all you would expect is a passing reference to a doctor or a hospital. The actual details of the diagnoses and treatment would be glossed over.

    My point (such as it was) about the itinerary porn is that it’s an odd thing to include in books about the rapture and the rise of the Anti-Christ. It’s an odd fit.

    Itinerary porn fits fine into genres like crime and mystery fiction, where the details of how to get from point A to point B with the equipment required in the time available are important to either being able to pull off pull a caper, or to figuring out who could or could not have done it. And Stoker makes the train schedule stuff it work in Dracula because the end of the novel is a chase across Europe where our heroes are trying to intercept Dracula before he can get back to his castle and the stuff about which route a train goes on and how fast is important and has consequences for the characters and plot. And in Planes, Trains and Automobiles the logistics of how Steve Martin’s character is going to be able to get home in time for Thanksgiving dinner is what drives the entire story. But in other genres, it’s just weird.

    Still, I did like Westlake’s example. It was amusing.

  • Kukulkan

    Ken wrote:

    Donald Westlake wrote a scene once – I think it was in Dancing Aztecs but don’t quote me – where two people were about to make love.  He broke out of the narrative to address the reader directly, writing something like,

    Some authors in this situation now go into great detail about each action that John and Mary take over the next hour.  Strangely, these same authors would never do this in any other situation.  They would not for example write,

    The basic rule is: if there’s an interest, there’s porn for it.

    I have a friend who’s into military hardware and he gets magazines full of big, glossy pictures of guns and tanks and ships and planes, with articles describing them in loving detail and speculating on how they would function in some hypothetical battlefield. I’m hard pressed to come up with any name for it except weapon porn.

    Westlake’s comments are valid to a point, but one of the things that distinguishes one genre from another is what type of sequences get treated in detail and what type get glossed over.

    Since Westlake wasn’t writing erotica, it’s perfectly valid of him to gloss over the lovemaking by saying ‘John and Mary made love.’ Since he was writing crime novels, he would spend much more time and detail on the planning and execution of a particular caper.

    In an episode of House MD, if someone gets injured while committing a crime, you don’t expect the show to spend all that much time on the details of the crime, but you do expect them to focus on the details of the diagnosis and treatment of the injury. By contrast, if someone gets injured while committing a crime in one of Westlake’s novels all you would expect is a passing reference to a doctor or a hospital. The actual details of the diagnoses and treatment would be glossed over.

    My point (such as it was) about the itinerary porn is that it’s an odd thing to include in books about the rapture and the rise of the Anti-Christ. It’s an odd fit.

    Itinerary porn fits fine into genres like crime and mystery fiction, where the details of how to get from point A to point B with the equipment required in the time available are important to either being able to pull off pull a caper, or to figuring out who could or could not have done it. And Stoker makes the train schedule stuff it work in Dracula because the end of the novel is a chase across Europe where our heroes are trying to intercept Dracula before he can get back to his castle and the stuff about which route a train goes on and how fast is important and has consequences for the characters and plot. And in Planes, Trains and Automobiles the logistics of how Steve Martin’s character is going to be able to get home in time for Thanksgiving dinner is what drives the entire story. But in other genres, it’s just weird.

    Still, I did like Westlake’s example. It was amusing.

  • Matri

    Reading Redwall and Watership Down at a young age
    instilled in me the sure and certain knowledge that rabbits are not to be fucked with.

    Hey, at least they just rip your face off. Bugs Bunny would destroy you completely.

  • Matri

    Reading Redwall and Watership Down at a young age
    instilled in me the sure and certain knowledge that rabbits are not to be fucked with.

    Hey, at least they just rip your face off. Bugs Bunny would destroy you completely.

  • http://readerofprey.livejournal.com/ anonymous

    It might have for Buck, even if he wasn’t religious.  I don’t feel that casual sex between consenting adults is morally wrong in anyway, but I could just never do that because I would never feel comfortable being intimate that way with someone I wasn’t in love with.  Having never been in love, I am close to 30 and still a virgin.

  • http://readerofprey.livejournal.com/ anonymous

    It might have for Buck, even if he wasn’t religious.  I don’t feel that casual sex between consenting adults is morally wrong in anyway, but I could just never do that because I would never feel comfortable being intimate that way with someone I wasn’t in love with.  Having never been in love, I am close to 30 and still a virgin.

  • http://readerofprey.livejournal.com/ readerofprey

    I’m not crazy about the way Geoff Johns writes Carol Ferris either.  Granted, I’ve never seen that character written particularly well, but he seems to have her switch between mature, practical woman who gives Hal practical advice and irrational, marraige-obsessed girl in the blink of an eye.  She never seems to make a decision that isn’t primarily motivated by how it affects Hal Jordan.

  • http://readerofprey.livejournal.com/ readerofprey

    I’m not crazy about the way Geoff Johns writes Carol Ferris either.  Granted, I’ve never seen that character written particularly well, but he seems to have her switch between mature, practical woman who gives Hal practical advice and irrational, marraige-obsessed girl in the blink of an eye.  She never seems to make a decision that isn’t primarily motivated by how it affects Hal Jordan.

  • hapax

    My point (such as it was) about the itinerary porn is that it’s an odd
    thing to include in books about the rapture and the rise of the
    Anti-Christ. It’s an odd fit.

    Dunno.  Reading the second half of The Acts of the Apostles, I pretty much expected the author to toss in the chariot schedules, ships’ manifests, and Paul’s preferred brand of sandals.

  • hapax

    My point (such as it was) about the itinerary porn is that it’s an odd
    thing to include in books about the rapture and the rise of the
    Anti-Christ. It’s an odd fit.

    Dunno.  Reading the second half of The Acts of the Apostles, I pretty much expected the author to toss in the chariot schedules, ships’ manifests, and Paul’s preferred brand of sandals.

  • Lonespark

    sporfle.  
    Well played, sir.

  • Lonespark

    sporfle.  
    Well played, sir.

  • Anonymous

    On a topic not unrelated to this post, the New York Times has an Op-Ed on why people’s belief in the Antichrist makes a difference in politics.

  • Anonymous

    On a topic not unrelated to this post, the New York Times has an Op-Ed on why people’s belief in the Antichrist makes a difference in politics.

  • Kukulkan

    hapax wrote:

    Dunno.  Reading the second half of The Acts of the Apostles, I pretty much expected the author to toss in the chariot schedules, ships’ manifests, and Paul’s preferred brand of sandals.

    Fair point.
    And knowing Paul’s preferred brand of sandals would be a great bit of early product placement.

    Actually, now that I think about it, a story told from Nicolae’s point-of-view in which part of the problem was how to accomplish what needs to accomplished with the resources available and on the timetable mandated by prophecy would, obviously, involve a lot of logistics.

    But that would require LaHaye and Jenkins to put some thought into how the Anti-Christ could actually accomplish what he’s supposed to accomplish. It’s much easier for them to just assume it happens – and that doesn’t require any logistics at all.

    The Left Behind books are strange that way — well, they’re strange in a lot of ways, but this is the one I’m focusing on currently. There’s an obsession with the logistics of trivia, things that don’t affect the plot or characters at all, but the logistics of major events are just glossed over. “But how does Nicholae accomplish that?” you think, and the answer is “He just does.” Whereas you really don’t care about how Buck got to the airport — you’re willing to assume he just did — but it’s covered in detail.

    It’s… odd.
     

  • Kukulkan

    hapax wrote:

    Dunno.  Reading the second half of The Acts of the Apostles, I pretty much expected the author to toss in the chariot schedules, ships’ manifests, and Paul’s preferred brand of sandals.

    Fair point.
    And knowing Paul’s preferred brand of sandals would be a great bit of early product placement.

    Actually, now that I think about it, a story told from Nicolae’s point-of-view in which part of the problem was how to accomplish what needs to accomplished with the resources available and on the timetable mandated by prophecy would, obviously, involve a lot of logistics.

    But that would require LaHaye and Jenkins to put some thought into how the Anti-Christ could actually accomplish what he’s supposed to accomplish. It’s much easier for them to just assume it happens – and that doesn’t require any logistics at all.

    The Left Behind books are strange that way — well, they’re strange in a lot of ways, but this is the one I’m focusing on currently. There’s an obsession with the logistics of trivia, things that don’t affect the plot or characters at all, but the logistics of major events are just glossed over. “But how does Nicholae accomplish that?” you think, and the answer is “He just does.” Whereas you really don’t care about how Buck got to the airport — you’re willing to assume he just did — but it’s covered in detail.

    It’s… odd.
     

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    I just find it hard to believe that Buck has never even thought that he was in love. He’s an international globetrotter dude — he’s probably met hundreds if not thousands of people. The issue isn’t so much, “he’s never had sex” but “he’s never kissed anyone before” which doesn’t sound right at all since it would imply that he’s never dated. Which isn’t bad at all if that’s a personal choice, but it just seems like it doesn’t fit with this particular character.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    I just find it hard to believe that Buck has never even thought that he was in love. He’s an international globetrotter dude — he’s probably met hundreds if not thousands of people. The issue isn’t so much, “he’s never had sex” but “he’s never kissed anyone before” which doesn’t sound right at all since it would imply that he’s never dated. Which isn’t bad at all if that’s a personal choice, but it just seems like it doesn’t fit with this particular character.

  • Lonespark

    Wow, that’s fantastic.

  • Lonespark

    Wow, that’s fantastic.

  • Anonymous

    Somehow I like to think of Chloe scuttling across the walls. Such a sudden transformation would make me climb the wall.

  • Anonymous

    Somehow I like to think of Chloe scuttling across the walls. Such a sudden transformation would make me climb the wall.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    Is there a Meta-Buck yet? If there isn’t, my vote for his character goes to the suggestion that he’s a journalistic savant who’s terrible at interacting with people in any other context. We just have to find a way to explain why everything we’ve seen so far indicates that he’s terrible at journalism.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    Is there a Meta-Buck yet? If there isn’t, my vote for his character goes to the suggestion that he’s a journalistic savant who’s terrible at interacting with people in any other context. We just have to find a way to explain why everything we’ve seen so far indicates that he’s terrible at journalism.

  • Lori

     ”World War 1 Simple Version”  

    That was excellent, but I’m left with the desperate need throw the term “war ‘stache” into a conversation and I suspect opportunities to do that without resorting to the total non sequitur are rare. 

  • Lori

     ”World War 1 Simple Version”  

    That was excellent, but I’m left with the desperate need throw the term “war ‘stache” into a conversation and I suspect opportunities to do that without resorting to the total non sequitur are rare. 

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    I’m not really up on LB canon, but I’m good with spelling and grammar and can probably find time to beta anything that’s not longer than a couple thousand words or so.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    I’m not really up on LB canon, but I’m good with spelling and grammar and can probably find time to beta anything that’s not longer than a couple thousand words or so.

  • Fraser

    I’m still boggling at the Green Arrow relaunch, which is as generic a super-hero comic as I can imagine. I’m guessing it’s hoping to catch the Smallville contingent since I don’t know many comics fans who were nostalgic for the days when GA was a millionaire playboy Batman knockoff.

  • Fraser

    I’m still boggling at the Green Arrow relaunch, which is as generic a super-hero comic as I can imagine. I’m guessing it’s hoping to catch the Smallville contingent since I don’t know many comics fans who were nostalgic for the days when GA was a millionaire playboy Batman knockoff.

  • Fraser

    There’s also a Manly Wade Wellman story, The Dreadful Rabbits, which proves menacing rabbits can actually work.

  • Fraser

    There’s also a Manly Wade Wellman story, The Dreadful Rabbits, which proves menacing rabbits can actually work.

  • Anonymous

    Have we even had a reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

    My rabbit was gentle but he was an escape artist … 4 foot cage wall he went over or under. Put a cover over the cage, he still got through somehow. Reminded me of The Great Escape.

  • Anonymous

    Have we even had a reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

    My rabbit was gentle but he was an escape artist … 4 foot cage wall he went over or under. Put a cover over the cage, he still got through somehow. Reminded me of The Great Escape.

  • Anonymous

    Belated countdowns:

    The Increasingly Nervous Bruce Barnes Death Countdown:
    31 pages

    The Suddenly Lonely Double Wedding Countdown: 8
    pages
     

  • Anonymous

    Belated countdowns:

    The Increasingly Nervous Bruce Barnes Death Countdown: 31 pages

    The Suddenly Lonely Double Wedding Countdown: 8 pages

  • Rikalous

    Is there a Meta-Buck yet? If there isn’t, my vote for his character goes
    to the suggestion that he’s a journalistic savant who’s terrible at
    interacting with people in any other context. We just have to find a way
    to explain why everything we’ve seen so far indicates that he’s
    terrible at journalism.

    All the reporting we’ve seen him do has been post-missile-miracle. That must have shaken him to his core and thrown him off his game. Not surprising, considering how bizarre it was for a number of reasons. Steve Plank hasn’t taken him aside to have a talk about his slump because by the time he’d figured out it wasn’t a one-off thing, Nicky Crap-I-Can’t-Think-of-Any-Good-Mountain-Ranges took a shine to the kid.

  • Rikalous

    Is there a Meta-Buck yet? If there isn’t, my vote for his character goes
    to the suggestion that he’s a journalistic savant who’s terrible at
    interacting with people in any other context. We just have to find a way
    to explain why everything we’ve seen so far indicates that he’s
    terrible at journalism.

    All the reporting we’ve seen him do has been post-missile-miracle. That must have shaken him to his core and thrown him off his game. Not surprising, considering how bizarre it was for a number of reasons. Steve Plank hasn’t taken him aside to have a talk about his slump because by the time he’d figured out it wasn’t a one-off thing, Nicky Crap-I-Can’t-Think-of-Any-Good-Mountain-Ranges took a shine to the kid.

  • http://ifindaudio.blogspot.com/ Murfyn

    seems to think that earning an income is still a necessity and priority for his followers
    It isn’t the income.  What you do defines who you are and what you are worth.  A man has a job. if these guys just cashed out their 401-k and got high on life all day, they wouldn’t be the upstanding Mary-Sues their authors intended them to be.  Logic be damned . . .

  • http://ifindaudio.blogspot.com/ Murfyn

    seems to think that earning an income is still a necessity and priority for his followers
    It isn’t the income.  What you do defines who you are and what you are worth.  A man has a job. if these guys just cashed out their 401-k and got high on life all day, they wouldn’t be the upstanding Mary-Sues their authors intended them to be.  Logic be damned . . .

  • Matri

    My rabbit was gentle but he was an escape artist … 4 foot cage
    wall he went over or under. Put a cover over the cage, he still got
    through somehow. Reminded me of The Great Escape.

    Reminded of my neighbor’s rabbit.

    The critter didn’t just broke out of his cage, he got out of the neighbor’s enclosure and into my house. Didn’t even know he was in until the cleaning lady started screaming bloody murder about a furry rat the size of a housecat in one of the (dark) rooms. Still don’t know how he got in.

  • Matri

    My rabbit was gentle but he was an escape artist … 4 foot cage
    wall he went over or under. Put a cover over the cage, he still got
    through somehow. Reminded me of The Great Escape.

    Reminded of my neighbor’s rabbit.

    The critter didn’t just broke out of his cage, he got out of the neighbor’s enclosure and into my house. Didn’t even know he was in until the cleaning lady started screaming bloody murder about a furry rat the size of a housecat in one of the (dark) rooms. Still don’t know how he got in.

  • http://dynamicita.tumblr.com Julezyme

    Actually, I know a guy like this. Refuses to have a girlfriend because a relationship would be a distraction from his career goals, and though he is inexperienced, I don’t get the impression that he is asexual. He says he wants to get married and have babies, but only once he has his dream job. He sort of split the difference between celibacy and dating by being in a long-distance e-relationship.
    (Sadly, the last time I talked to him, he wasn’t any closer to his dream job, and I couldn’t help thinking that he’d be less unhappy if he had someone to cuddle. But, to each his own.)
    Wait – am I defending LJ’s characterization here? Or grasping at straws? ;)

  • http://dynamicita.tumblr.com Julezyme

    Actually, I know a guy like this. Refuses to have a girlfriend because a relationship would be a distraction from his career goals, and though he is inexperienced, I don’t get the impression that he is asexual. He says he wants to get married and have babies, but only once he has his dream job. He sort of split the difference between celibacy and dating by being in a long-distance e-relationship.
    (Sadly, the last time I talked to him, he wasn’t any closer to his dream job, and I couldn’t help thinking that he’d be less unhappy if he had someone to cuddle. But, to each his own.)
    Wait – am I defending LJ’s characterization here? Or grasping at straws? ;)

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Meta-Chloe thinks that the kiss she got at Full Moon on the Quad was better and more welcome – and that one was just friendly.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Meta-Chloe thinks that the kiss she got at Full Moon on the Quad was better and more welcome – and that one was just friendly.

  • Jenny Islander

    I got most of the way out of Big Two comics fandom when I realized that every artist left in the stables drew in one of two ways.  Either the men had muscles popping out in places where nobody has muscles and the women had enormous gravity-defying breasts under sprayed-on tops even in their civvies,* or else the men were more or less okay while the women were quite well drawn, but weirdly posed with strangely slack or pouty expressions.  I learned later that the women in the second set were traced from porn.  The Grim!Dark!andEdgy! plotlines put the nail in the coffin.  Having to buy eight different titles simultaneously in order to follow the plot of one episode didn’t help either.

    The recent Marvel movies have lured me back to Marvel fandom–but only the fanfic and fanart and a select few cartoons (okay, and an Iron Man Halloween costume for my toddler, who is crazy about Ol’Shellhead).  Movie!Captain America was note-perfect.  I do not want to see him
    messed up in the comics again.

    *One of the X-Men spinoffs featured a teenager who wore the full cover-up of devout women in Saudi Arabia because she was a devout Muslim from Saudi Arabia.  Except, of course, that her burqa (sp.?) perfectly outlined her enormous gravity-defying breasts.

  • Jenny Islander

    I got most of the way out of Big Two comics fandom when I realized that every artist left in the stables drew in one of two ways.  Either the men had muscles popping out in places where nobody has muscles and the women had enormous gravity-defying breasts under sprayed-on tops even in their civvies,* or else the men were more or less okay while the women were quite well drawn, but weirdly posed with strangely slack or pouty expressions.  I learned later that the women in the second set were traced from porn.  The Grim!Dark!andEdgy! plotlines put the nail in the coffin.  Having to buy eight different titles simultaneously in order to follow the plot of one episode didn’t help either.

    The recent Marvel movies have lured me back to Marvel fandom–but only the fanfic and fanart and a select few cartoons (okay, and an Iron Man Halloween costume for my toddler, who is crazy about Ol’Shellhead).  Movie!Captain America was note-perfect.  I do not want to see him
    messed up in the comics again.

    *One of the X-Men spinoffs featured a teenager who wore the full cover-up of devout women in Saudi Arabia because she was a devout Muslim from Saudi Arabia.  Except, of course, that her burqa (sp.?) perfectly outlined her enormous gravity-defying breasts.

  • http://dynamicita.tumblr.com Julezyme

    I mean, I read that description of him (“enjoyed dating, but ran from [having a girlfriend]“) and see “sociopathic jerk who is fine with using women for sex but would rather not talk to them, and cannot be counted on to care if they die in a fire a week later”. But that’s just me.

    I think that is way too sophisticated for Bucky. He really just has the relationship skills of a thirteen-year-old. 

    Now I’m imagining Buck as Tom Hanks’s character in “Big”. “Hey Chloe, do want to be on top? The top bunk?!”

  • http://dynamicita.tumblr.com Julezyme

    I mean, I read that description of him (“enjoyed dating, but ran from [having a girlfriend]“) and see “sociopathic jerk who is fine with using women for sex but would rather not talk to them, and cannot be counted on to care if they die in a fire a week later”. But that’s just me.

    I think that is way too sophisticated for Bucky. He really just has the relationship skills of a thirteen-year-old. 

    Now I’m imagining Buck as Tom Hanks’s character in “Big”. “Hey Chloe, do want to be on top? The top bunk?!”

  • Julezyme

    Dunno.  Reading the second half of The Acts of the Apostles, I pretty much expected the author to toss in the chariot schedules, ships’ manifests, and Paul’s preferred brand of sandals.

    That would be awesome. 

  • Julezyme

    Dunno.  Reading the second half of The Acts of the Apostles, I pretty much expected the author to toss in the chariot schedules, ships’ manifests, and Paul’s preferred brand of sandals.

    That would be awesome. 

  • julezyme

    Is there a Meta-Buck yet? If there isn’t, my vote for his character goes to the suggestion that he’s a journalistic savant who’s terrible at interacting with people in any other context. We just have to find a way to explain why everything we’ve seen so far indicates that he’s terrible at journalism.

    I’m in favor of Meta-Loretta’s “useful fool” paradigm.

  • julezyme

    Is there a Meta-Buck yet? If there isn’t, my vote for his character goes to the suggestion that he’s a journalistic savant who’s terrible at interacting with people in any other context. We just have to find a way to explain why everything we’ve seen so far indicates that he’s terrible at journalism.

    I’m in favor of Meta-Loretta’s “useful fool” paradigm.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Oh my… I’d never seen that before but… holy crap. >_>

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Oh my… I’d never seen that before but… holy crap. >_>

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2RAPF5V3YPOUWAZGAJ2VCQM76Q Alicia

    They don’t have to get high on life. They can be superhero warriors fighting against the Antichrist. I don’t understand why they haven’t done that yet. They’ve even come up with a kickass name and they have a base and everything, so it’s not like they’re unprepared. Do they think that it will be easier to beat Carpathia after he openly rules the world as a dictator?

    This book is like an action movie that focuses entirely on the non-action logistics that other movies take for granted. No one really cares about John McClane’s 401k. No one really wants to watch a movie where the T1000 gets an oil-change and has to have some rusted-out gears and shafts replaced at an auto shop. If these guys were writing “Saving Private Ryan”, the first 3/4ths of the movie would involve Private Ryan’s commander figuring out how to get his printer to collate Ryan’s enlistment papers for his record.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2RAPF5V3YPOUWAZGAJ2VCQM76Q Alicia

    They don’t have to get high on life. They can be superhero warriors fighting against the Antichrist. I don’t understand why they haven’t done that yet. They’ve even come up with a kickass name and they have a base and everything, so it’s not like they’re unprepared. Do they think that it will be easier to beat Carpathia after he openly rules the world as a dictator?

    This book is like an action movie that focuses entirely on the non-action logistics that other movies take for granted. No one really cares about John McClane’s 401k. No one really wants to watch a movie where the T1000 gets an oil-change and has to have some rusted-out gears and shafts replaced at an auto shop. If these guys were writing “Saving Private Ryan”, the first 3/4ths of the movie would involve Private Ryan’s commander figuring out how to get his printer to collate Ryan’s enlistment papers for his record.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2RAPF5V3YPOUWAZGAJ2VCQM76Q Alicia

    Nicolae is a magician, right? The authors don’t think of this, but couldn’t he just conjure a bunch of demons from Hell and set them to work?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2RAPF5V3YPOUWAZGAJ2VCQM76Q Alicia

    Nicolae is a magician, right? The authors don’t think of this, but couldn’t he just conjure a bunch of demons from Hell and set them to work?

  • http://www.nightphoenix.com Amaranth

    I once did some random reading in the romance genre, as many of the potential stories I have in mind to write might fall in that genre. And let me tell you, picking random books off the shelf is a very good way to find out for yourself just how BAD a romantic or sex scene in a published book can be. My first thought upon reading Buck and Chloe’s kiss was honestly, “I’ve seen worse. Much, much worse.”

    (There was one where the guy was going on and on about how he and the protagonist were not good for each other and shouldn’t be together while they were having sex. Not after, during. And then there was the one where the first chapter starts out with this supposed smart, savvy, career-driven woman doing some research up in the mountains…and letting this big burly man whom she does not know come out of the woods every night to have random passionate multi-orgasmic sex with her and she never even bothers to ask him his name? Whaaaat? I didn’t get much past the first chapter. Beware, beware what you pull off those shelves!).

    On a slightly unrelated note, between all the rabbits in this thread and the fact that I’m currently reading The Handmaid’s Tale, my dreams last night involved a cabal of red-robed women and some very fat bunnies. Thank you, Slacktivist. :P

  • http://www.nightphoenix.com Amaranth

    I once did some random reading in the romance genre, as many of the potential stories I have in mind to write might fall in that genre. And let me tell you, picking random books off the shelf is a very good way to find out for yourself just how BAD a romantic or sex scene in a published book can be. My first thought upon reading Buck and Chloe’s kiss was honestly, “I’ve seen worse. Much, much worse.”

    (There was one where the guy was going on and on about how he and the protagonist were not good for each other and shouldn’t be together while they were having sex. Not after, during. And then there was the one where the first chapter starts out with this supposed smart, savvy, career-driven woman doing some research up in the mountains…and letting this big burly man whom she does not know come out of the woods every night to have random passionate multi-orgasmic sex with her and she never even bothers to ask him his name? Whaaaat? I didn’t get much past the first chapter. Beware, beware what you pull off those shelves!).

    On a slightly unrelated note, between all the rabbits in this thread and the fact that I’m currently reading The Handmaid’s Tale, my dreams last night involved a cabal of red-robed women and some very fat bunnies. Thank you, Slacktivist. :P

  • Anonymous

    I couldn’t comment when this article was placed because I was having a crest/banner of stars marathon.
    And I didn’t want to lose my concentration (great series, but I think I am more rooting for united humanity than the abh because of screw you elves)

    But I have to admit that bucky boy is disappointing as usual.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYouElves

  • Anonymous

    I couldn’t comment when this article was placed because I was having a crest/banner of stars marathon.
    And I didn’t want to lose my concentration (great series, but I think I am more rooting for united humanity than the abh because of screw you elves)

    But I have to admit that bucky boy is disappointing as usual.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYouElves

  • http://profiles.google.com/vlowe7294 Vaughn Lowe

    It can’t have been easy writing such a scene for Tyndale House and for
    an audience that includes a significant number of fundamentalist readers
    who regard premarital kissing as scandalously sinful behavior.

    I was thinking about Christian pop music in a similar way recently.  Art and music and literature, to be good, has to touch people.  To do so, they have to be “real” else it is bland and no one can identify with it.

    There’s no problem with a publisher saying “Nothing with foul language or explicit sex.”  The problem comes in when the publisher or even the author restricts themselves “Everyone who converts to Christ must never again have any doubts or problems with his faith.  Everyone who falls in love must be completely chaste, never struggling with physical drives.” 

    This is why most modern Christian music and fiction is… in my opinion, bland and uninteresting.  The only thing left to write about is how good my life is with Jesus and how you people better stop sinning!

  • http://profiles.google.com/vlowe7294 Vaughn Lowe

    It can’t have been easy writing such a scene for Tyndale House and for
    an audience that includes a significant number of fundamentalist readers
    who regard premarital kissing as scandalously sinful behavior.

    I was thinking about Christian pop music in a similar way recently.  Art and music and literature, to be good, has to touch people.  To do so, they have to be “real” else it is bland and no one can identify with it.

    There’s no problem with a publisher saying “Nothing with foul language or explicit sex.”  The problem comes in when the publisher or even the author restricts themselves “Everyone who converts to Christ must never again have any doubts or problems with his faith.  Everyone who falls in love must be completely chaste, never struggling with physical drives.” 

    This is why most modern Christian music and fiction is… in my opinion, bland and uninteresting.  The only thing left to write about is how good my life is with Jesus and how you people better stop sinning!

  • Anonymous

    Actually, now that I think about it, a story told from Nicolae’s point-of-view in which part of the problem was how to accomplish what needs to accomplished with the resources available and on the timetable mandated by prophecy would, obviously, involve a lot of logistics.

    Logistics?  Let others deal with logistics…

    David peeked at his packet and fanned the pages until his eye fell on a startling word. “Guillotines?” he said aloud before he could stop himself.
    …
    Nicolae turned to David. “You are responsible for technical purchasing, correct?”
    David nodded.
    “I do not believe we have an adequate supply of immediate-response mechanisms for the reluctant. We must study the expected need and be prepared. As I have said, my loftiest dream is that not one would refuse the loyalty mark…”
    The Mark, pp 84-85

    * * * * *

    “Who’s going to help me procure a pig?”
    “A pig, sir?”
    “Huge and live, Hassid.”
    “I have no idea.”
    …
    “[W]hen [Potentate Carpathia] asks me can I get him a pig, I want to be able to tell him no problem. Can I tell him that? You’re going to check with, with, ah, your people or whatever, and I’m gonna get him this pig, right?”
    The Mark, pp 191-192

  • Anonymous

    Actually, now that I think about it, a story told from Nicolae’s point-of-view in which part of the problem was how to accomplish what needs to accomplished with the resources available and on the timetable mandated by prophecy would, obviously, involve a lot of logistics.

    Logistics?  Let others deal with logistics…

    David peeked at his packet and fanned the pages until his eye fell on a startling word. “Guillotines?” he said aloud before he could stop himself.
    …
    Nicolae turned to David. “You are responsible for technical purchasing, correct?”
    David nodded.
    “I do not believe we have an adequate supply of immediate-response mechanisms for the reluctant. We must study the expected need and be prepared. As I have said, my loftiest dream is that not one would refuse the loyalty mark…”
    The Mark, pp 84-85

    * * * * *

    “Who’s going to help me procure a pig?”
    “A pig, sir?”
    “Huge and live, Hassid.”
    “I have no idea.”
    …
    “[W]hen [Potentate Carpathia] asks me can I get him a pig, I want to be able to tell him no problem. Can I tell him that? You’re going to check with, with, ah, your people or whatever, and I’m gonna get him this pig, right?”
    The Mark, pp 191-192

  • Anonymous

    The problem comes in when the publisher or even the author restricts themselves “Everyone who converts to Christ must never again have any doubts or problems with his faith.  Everyone who falls in love must be completely chaste, never struggling with physical drives.”

    I think you’re on to something…

    Floyd stood and turned his back to Rayford. “No, sir. What I want is to love her. I do love her. I want to hold her and kiss her and tell her.” His voice grew quavery. “I care so much for her that I’ve convinced myself I can love her back to health in every way. Physically and spiritually.” He turned and faced Rayford. “Didn’t expect that one, did you?”

    Apollyon, p 113

    As penalty for commiting the sin of lust, Dr. Floyd Charles was killed off early in the next book.

  • Anonymous

    The problem comes in when the publisher or even the author restricts themselves “Everyone who converts to Christ must never again have any doubts or problems with his faith.  Everyone who falls in love must be completely chaste, never struggling with physical drives.”

    I think you’re on to something…

    Floyd stood and turned his back to Rayford. “No, sir. What I want is to love her. I do love her. I want to hold her and kiss her and tell her.” His voice grew quavery. “I care so much for her that I’ve convinced myself I can love her back to health in every way. Physically and spiritually.” He turned and faced Rayford. “Didn’t expect that one, did you?”

    Apollyon, p 113

    As penalty for commiting the sin of lust, Dr. Floyd Charles was killed off early in the next book — having contracted poison from the object of his lust.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    So far, of the “New 52″ that I’ve checked out, I’ve only really enjoyed
    Action and, surprisingly (since it’s written by Dan DiDio whom I feel a
    good deal of antipathy towards), O.M.A.C.

    I’ve been okay with (meaning I’ll check out #2) Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman.

    I was seriously underwhelmed by Hawk & Dove, but I pretty much
    expected to be and only bought it on a lark (It’s Liefeld!  I can laugh
    at him!) and because of some lingering affection for the old series.

    I’ll be checking out Batgirl, once the second printing shows up at my
    comic shop, Firestorm, and Superman, and that’ll probably be it, apart
    from Legion of Super-Heroes which basically didn’t change in any way
    other than starting the numbering over again.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    So far, of the “New 52″ that I’ve checked out, I’ve only really enjoyed
    Action and, surprisingly (since it’s written by Dan DiDio whom I feel a
    good deal of antipathy towards), O.M.A.C.

    I’ve been okay with (meaning I’ll check out #2) Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman.

    I was seriously underwhelmed by Hawk & Dove, but I pretty much
    expected to be and only bought it on a lark (It’s Liefeld!  I can laugh
    at him!) and because of some lingering affection for the old series.

    I’ll be checking out Batgirl, once the second printing shows up at my
    comic shop, Firestorm, and Superman, and that’ll probably be it, apart
    from Legion of Super-Heroes which basically didn’t change in any way
    other than starting the numbering over again.

  • Lori

     ”[W]hen [Potentate Carpathia] asks me can I get him a pig, I want to be able to tell him no problem. Can I tell him that? You’re going to check with, with, ah, your people or whatever, and I’m gonna get him this pig, right?”  

     

    The whole business with the pig will never not be funny. It’s so terrible. This bit of “dialogue” is what happens when an RTC watches 5 minutes of The Godfather. And it’s about a huge pig. Pure UCG. 

  • Lori

     ”[W]hen [Potentate Carpathia] asks me can I get him a pig, I want to be able to tell him no problem. Can I tell him that? You’re going to check with, with, ah, your people or whatever, and I’m gonna get him this pig, right?”  

     

    The whole business with the pig will never not be funny. It’s so terrible. This bit of “dialogue” is what happens when an RTC watches 5 minutes of The Godfather. And it’s about a huge pig. Pure UCG. 

  • Tonio

    The only thing left to write about is how good my life is with Jesus and how you people better stop sinning!

    Mary Sue fiction has the same general problem, since the protagonist has no flaws and has nothing to learn. The LB series can be summarized as RTC Mary Sue fiction.

  • Tonio

    The only thing left to write about is how good my life is with Jesus and how you people better stop sinning!

    Mary Sue fiction has the same general problem, since the protagonist has no flaws and has nothing to learn. The LB series can be summarized as RTC Mary Sue fiction.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Mary Sue fiction has the same general problem, since the protagonist has no flaws and has nothing to learn. The LB series can be summarized as RTC Mary Sue fiction.

    Almost to the point of being self-insert fics.  Ugh.  :p

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Mary Sue fiction has the same general problem, since the protagonist has no flaws and has nothing to learn. The LB series can be summarized as RTC Mary Sue fiction.

    Almost to the point of being self-insert fics.  Ugh.  :p

  • Albanaeon

    Suddenly I have visions of Slaanesh fulfilling Buck’s deepest most darkest desires:

    A world filled with phallyically endowed phones chanting itineraries…

  • Albanaeon

    Suddenly I have visions of Slaanesh fulfilling Buck’s deepest most darkest desires:

    A world filled with phallyically endowed phones chanting itineraries…

  • Rikalous

    No one really wants to watch a movie where the T1000 gets an oil-change
    and has to have some rusted-out gears and shafts replaced at an auto
    shop.

    But the T1000′s made of liquid metal. How would that work? /nitpicking and missing the point.

  • Rikalous

    No one really wants to watch a movie where the T1000 gets an oil-change
    and has to have some rusted-out gears and shafts replaced at an auto
    shop.

    But the T1000′s made of liquid metal. How would that work? /nitpicking and missing the point.

  • Fraser

    Batgirl is … competently done. But nothing to trade Oracle for. It’s also a good exampel of how betwixt and between they are on rebooting. Lots of continuity that might confuse a new reader (references to Killing Joke and miraculously walking again) and confusion for me (I have no idea if Oracle or the old Birds of Prey still exist–though I’m guessing not, or Babs would be in much better financial shape with her computer skills).

  • Fraser

    Batgirl is … competently done. But nothing to trade Oracle for. It’s also a good exampel of how betwixt and between they are on rebooting. Lots of continuity that might confuse a new reader (references to Killing Joke and miraculously walking again) and confusion for me (I have no idea if Oracle or the old Birds of Prey still exist–though I’m guessing not, or Babs would be in much better financial shape with her computer skills).

  • LunaticFringe

    ” And Stoker makes the train schedule stuff it work in Dracula
    because the end of the novel is a chase across Europe where our heroes
    are trying to intercept Dracula before he can get back to his castle and
    the stuff about which route a train goes on and how fast is important
    and has consequences for the characters and plot.”

     I would have paid much more attention to those math problems about a train leaving Detroit at 60 mph if someone had told me they might one day be essential for catching a vampire.

  • LunaticFringe

    ” And Stoker makes the train schedule stuff it work in Dracula
    because the end of the novel is a chase across Europe where our heroes
    are trying to intercept Dracula before he can get back to his castle and
    the stuff about which route a train goes on and how fast is important
    and has consequences for the characters and plot.”

     I would have paid much more attention to those math problems about a train leaving Detroit at 60 mph if someone had told me they might one day be essential for catching a vampire.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    You mean that flight attendant of Rayford’s?

  • http://entomologist.livejournal.com/ Alex

    As far as “kissing parts” go, that wasn’t nearly as squirmingly awkward as I expected it to be. It was unpleasant, but browse through the nominees of The Guardian’s annual “Bad Sex award,” and you’ll appreciate that the bar for excruciating literary romance is set pretty high. (Or low — you know what I mean.)
    Jenkins’ writing is far worse than mediocre, but he does attain a kind of mediocrity in his awfulness — his terrible writing is not terrible     enough to be entertaining in the way that a Bad Sex Award or Bulwer-Lytton contest entry can.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    You mean that flight attendant of Rayford’s?

  • http://entomologist.livejournal.com/ Alex

    As far as “kissing parts” go, that wasn’t nearly as squirmingly awkward as I expected it to be. It was unpleasant, but browse through the nominees of The Guardian’s annual “Bad Sex award,” and you’ll appreciate that the bar for excruciating literary romance is set pretty high. (Or low — you know what I mean.)
    Jenkins’ writing is far worse than mediocre, but he does attain a kind of mediocrity in his awfulness — his terrible writing is not terrible     enough to be entertaining in the way that a Bad Sex Award or Bulwer-Lytton contest entry can.

  • Rikalous

    I would have paid much more attention to those math problems about a
    train leaving Detroit at 60 mph if someone had told me they might one
    day be essential for catching a vampire.

    You actually had those train problems? I always thought they were invented for Calvin and Hobbes.

  • Rikalous

    I would have paid much more attention to those math problems about a
    train leaving Detroit at 60 mph if someone had told me they might one
    day be essential for catching a vampire.

    You actually had those train problems? I always thought they were invented for Calvin and Hobbes.

  • Kukulkan

    aunursa write:

    Logistics?  Let others deal with logistics…

    Well, yeah. As Supreme Potentate, Nicolae would obviously delegate these sort of things. I mean, only a manager-from-hell would try to micro-manage all this stuff.

    Oh, wait…

    Still, you’re saying we have more itinerary porn to look forward to?
    Woo-hoo!
    I have reason to keep going!

        “Who’s going to help me procure a pig?”
        “A pig, sir?”
        “Huge and live, Hassid.”
        “I have no idea.”
        …
        “[W]hen [Potentate Carpathia] asks me can I get him a pig, I want to be able to tell him no problem. Can I tell him that? You’re going to check with, with, ah, your people or whatever, and I’m gonna get him this pig, right?”
        The Mark, pp 191-192

    This sounds awesome. I’m sure that when we get to it, it won’t live up to it’s potential, but the set-up sounds like it could lead to one of those great Catch 22 comedies of bureaucracy gone mad.

    As I said, I used to work in logistics, so I was one of those “your people or whatever” referred to. That means there’s a part of my brain that automatically starts thinking about the logistical problems involved in such a scenario. It was what I was doing for eight of more hours a day for ages.

    I can see it now:

         “Sir, the Supreme Potentate wants a pig.”
         “Okay. Get him a pig. Look up piggeries in the yellow pages and find the most conveniently located one. I assume you have a requisition order? Yes? Okay, get Linda in accounting to give a purchase authorisation, buy the pig, get… ummm… Tracy to organise live animal transport, and send the pig over. How hard is this? Do I have to do anything around here?”
         “Umm… the pig has to go to the Temple in Jerusalem.”
         “Oh, right. That makes it a bit more complicated. Do they have piggeries in the Middle East?”
         “Uh…”
         “Doesn’t matter. We’ll get one in… ummm… Greece. Organise a ship to take to the Port of Ashdod and transport it by truck from there. Tracy can still do the land transportation, but team her up with Raj — he knows the various Israeli trucking companies. Jaris can organise the boat. Oh, and Israel still isn’t part of the Global Community. That makes it a bit more complicated. Get Pamela onto orgainsing the appropriate clearances and import documents. Oh, and look up what Israel’s Quarantine rules are on pigs. Make sure we got all that covered. Last thing we need is some sort of kerfuffle with Israeli Quarantine officers.”
         “Er…”
         “What?”
         “There’s more. There are certain… technical specifications.”
         “Which are…?”
         “It’s got to be a big pig. Sir.”
         “Fine. Get him a big pig. Get him the biggest pig in Greece. I assume we have the budget for it.”
         “Budget’s not the problem, sir. The technical specifications are… ‘Pig must have nostrils large enough to accommodate a man’s fist’.”
              [beat]
         “Sir?”
         “That would be one big pig.”
         “Yes sir.”
         “That would b the King Kong of pigs.”
         “Yes sir.”
         “Do pigs even grow that big?”
         “I don’t know sir.”
         “Let’s see… a fist has a diameter of… ten centimetres. Let’s say twelve just to be safe. So we need a pig with nostrils of at least 15 cm diameter.”
         “Yes sir.”
         “What’s the ratio of nostril diameter to body size in pigs?”
         “I don’t know sir.”
         “Well, look it up. Find an expert on pigs and ask him. Or her. Someone must know. Look up ‘world’s biggest pig’ online. I assume that we’d need to get one somewhere in that range…”
         “That would be Attitude in the UK.”
         “You’ve already looked it up?”
         “Yes sir.”
         “Well, arrange to buy this ‘Attitude’ and…”
         “He’s not big enough sir.”
         “He’s…”
         “Not big enough sir.”
         “When does the Supreme Potentate want this pig?”
         “Next week sir.”
         “Oh, well, of course…”
              [gestures to the sign which hangs in every
               logistics office, reading:
                  "Of course I want it today!
                      That's why I ordered it today!
                      If I wanted it tomorrow,
                      I'd order it tomorrow!"     ]
         “There’s no way we could genetically engineer a giant pig in a week is there…”
         “Ahhh…”
         “What’s the Supreme Potentate going to do with this pig?”
         “Sacrifice it. At the Temple. Sir.”
         “Sacrifice it? Why?”
         “I don’t…”
              [waves it off]
         “Probably one of those Enigma Babylon things. Really should really should read up on the theology of that thing one of these days. So this giant pig just has to last long enough to be killed?”
         “I think so sir…”
         “Fine. Can we surgically alter a hippo to look like a pig with big nostrils? In a week?”
         “Ah, sir…?”
         “Look, I know it would be brutal and cruel and the animal would be in a great deal of pain, but it’s just going to go in and get its throat slit anyway. All that matters is that it looks good for the TV cameras, right?”
         “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the pig as well. Sir.”
         “What?”
         “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the giant pig around the Temple and then sacrifice it. Sir.”
         “So we have to find not only a giant pig, but a trained giant pig. In a week.”
         “Yes, sir.”
         “How about a mechanical pig?”
         “Sir?”
         “You remember that guy, Ryan, who built those little R2D2 knock-offs for those Enigma Babylon theme parks we were setting up all over the place…?”
         “Yes sir…”
         “We get him to build us a fake giant pig. Fill it with blood bladders so it bleeds appropriately when sacrificed. Ryan can control it by remote so it will do whatever it needs to do with no danger to the Supreme Potentate. And we don’t have to bother with Israeli Quarantine. We don’t even have to declare it. We just bring it in with all the rest of the technical equipment to cover this sacrifice. It’s perfect.”
         “Sir, I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want a live pig.”
         “He doesn’t have to know.”
         “Ah sir…”
         “What? Are you going to tell him?”
         “Sir…”
         “It’s like the Certificates of Virginity we got for those temple maidens. No-one’s really going to check. Immediately after the sacrifice we burn the pig. Give the conspiracy nuts something to argue about on message boards.”
         “I think it has to be a live pig, sir. An actual live pig. For theological reasons.”
              [pause]
         “Stephanie, how long have you been with us?”
         “Since the founding of the Global Community, sir.”
         “Well, congratulations. You’re about to be promoted to head of the Logistics Division.”
         “Sir…”
         “I’m defecting to the Tribulation Force.”
         “No, sir.”
         “What? Are you going to turn me in?
              [beat]
          Well, then, it’s still congratulations because you’re still going to be promoted.”
         “No, sir. I’m going with you.”
         “Oh, thank you Stephanie. That’s the nicest thing…”
         “It’s not for you, sir.”
         “Oh, well. Thank you anyway. Now we have to prepare escape plans…”
         “Already done, sir. Prepared them before I came to talk to you.”
         “Ah, well then.
              [beat]
          Thank you Stephanie. For not leaving me behind.”
         “Quite all right, sir.”
         “You know we’re going to have to spend the rest of our lives listening to that Cameron idiot blather on about how he beat the traffic to some airport or other, don’t you.”
         “Yes sir.”
         “Still, how likely is it that they’re going to want a giant pig out of the blue.”
         “They are highly religious, sir. They may have their own rather… special… requests.”
         “We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.”
         “You always said that attitude displays very poor logistics planning, sir.”
         “We don’t live in a perfect world, Stephanie.”

         “We don’t live in a perfect world, Stephanie.”
     

  • Kukulkan

    aunursa write:

    Logistics?  Let others deal with logistics…

    Well, yeah. As Supreme Potentate, Nicolae would obviously delegate these sort of things. I mean, only a manager-from-hell would try to micro-manage all this stuff.

    Oh, wait…

    Still, you’re saying we have more itinerary porn to look forward to?
    Woo-hoo!
    I have reason to keep going!

        “Who’s going to help me procure a pig?”
        “A pig, sir?”
        “Huge and live, Hassid.”
        “I have no idea.”
        …
        “[W]hen [Potentate Carpathia] asks me can I get him a pig, I want to be able to tell him no problem. Can I tell him that? You’re going to check with, with, ah, your people or whatever, and I’m gonna get him this pig, right?”
        The Mark, pp 191-192

    This sounds awesome. I’m sure that when we get to it, it won’t live up to it’s potential, but the set-up sounds like it could lead to one of those great Catch 22 comedies of bureaucracy gone mad.

    As I said, I used to work in logistics, so I was one of those “your people or whatever” referred to. That means there’s a part of my brain that automatically starts thinking about the logistical problems involved in such a scenario. It was what I was doing for eight of more hours a day for ages.

    I can see it now:

         “Sir, the Supreme Potentate wants a pig.”
         “Okay. Get him a pig. Look up piggeries in the yellow pages and find the most conveniently located one. I assume you have a requisition order? Yes? Okay, get Linda in accounting to give a purchase authorisation, buy the pig, get… ummm… Tracy to organise live animal transport, and send the pig over. How hard is this? Do I have to do anything around here?”
         “Umm… the pig has to go to the Temple in Jerusalem.”
         “Oh, right. That makes it a bit more complicated. Do they have piggeries in the Middle East?”
         “Uh…”
         “Doesn’t matter. We’ll get one in… ummm… Greece. Organise a ship to take to the Port of Ashdod and transport it by truck from there. Tracy can still do the land transportation, but team her up with Raj — he knows the various Israeli trucking companies. Jaris can organise the boat. Oh, and Israel still isn’t part of the Global Community. That makes it a bit more complicated. Get Pamela onto orgainsing the appropriate clearances and import documents. Oh, and look up what Israel’s Quarantine rules are on pigs. Make sure we got all that covered. Last thing we need is some sort of kerfuffle with Israeli Quarantine officers.”
         “Er…”
         “What?”
         “There’s more. There are certain… technical specifications.”
         “Which are…?”
         “It’s got to be a big pig. Sir.”
         “Fine. Get him a big pig. Get him the biggest pig in Greece. I assume we have the budget for it.”
         “Budget’s not the problem, sir. The technical specifications are… ‘Pig must have nostrils large enough to accommodate a man’s fist’.”
              [beat]
         “Sir?”
         “That would be one big pig.”
         “Yes sir.”
         “That would b the King Kong of pigs.”
         “Yes sir.”
         “Do pigs even grow that big?”
         “I don’t know sir.”
         “Let’s see… a fist has a diameter of… ten centimetres. Let’s say twelve just to be safe. So we need a pig with nostrils of at least 15 cm diameter.”
         “Yes sir.”
         “What’s the ratio of nostril diameter to body size in pigs?”
         “I don’t know sir.”
         “Well, look it up. Find an expert on pigs and ask him. Or her. Someone must know. Look up ‘world’s biggest pig’ online. I assume that we’d need to get one somewhere in that range…”
         “That would be Attitude in the UK.”
         “You’ve already looked it up?”
         “Yes sir.”
         “Well, arrange to buy this ‘Attitude’ and…”
         “He’s not big enough sir.”
         “He’s…”
         “Not big enough sir.”
         “When does the Supreme Potentate want this pig?”
         “Next week sir.”
         “Oh, well, of course…”
              [gestures to the sign which hangs in every
               logistics office, reading:
                  "Of course I want it today!
                      That's why I ordered it today!
                      If I wanted it tomorrow,
                      I'd order it tomorrow!"     ]
         “There’s no way we could genetically engineer a giant pig in a week is there…”
         “Ahhh…”
         “What’s the Supreme Potentate going to do with this pig?”
         “Sacrifice it. At the Temple. Sir.”
         “Sacrifice it? Why?”
         “I don’t…”
              [waves it off]
         “Probably one of those Enigma Babylon things. Really should really should read up on the theology of that thing one of these days. So this giant pig just has to last long enough to be killed?”
         “I think so sir…”
         “Fine. Can we surgically alter a hippo to look like a pig with big nostrils? In a week?”
         “Ah, sir…?”
         “Look, I know it would be brutal and cruel and the animal would be in a great deal of pain, but it’s just going to go in and get its throat slit anyway. All that matters is that it looks good for the TV cameras, right?”
         “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the pig as well. Sir.”
         “What?”
         “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the giant pig around the Temple and then sacrifice it. Sir.”
         “So we have to find not only a giant pig, but a trained giant pig. In a week.”
         “Yes, sir.”
         “How about a mechanical pig?”
         “Sir?”
         “You remember that guy, Ryan, who built those little R2D2 knock-offs for those Enigma Babylon theme parks we were setting up all over the place…?”
         “Yes sir…”
         “We get him to build us a fake giant pig. Fill it with blood bladders so it bleeds appropriately when sacrificed. Ryan can control it by remote so it will do whatever it needs to do with no danger to the Supreme Potentate. And we don’t have to bother with Israeli Quarantine. We don’t even have to declare it. We just bring it in with all the rest of the technical equipment to cover this sacrifice. It’s perfect.”
         “Sir, I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want a live pig.”
         “He doesn’t have to know.”
         “Ah sir…”
         “What? Are you going to tell him?”
         “Sir…”
         “It’s like the Certificates of Virginity we got for those temple maidens. No-one’s really going to check. Immediately after the sacrifice we burn the pig. Give the conspiracy nuts something to argue about on message boards.”
         “I think it has to be a live pig, sir. An actual live pig. For theological reasons.”
              [pause]
         “Stephanie, how long have you been with us?”
         “Since the founding of the Global Community, sir.”
         “Well, congratulations. You’re about to be promoted to head of the Logistics Division.”
         “Sir…”
         “I’m defecting to the Tribulation Force.”
         “No, sir.”
         “What? Are you going to turn me in?
              [beat]
          Well, then, it’s still congratulations because you’re still going to be promoted.”
         “No, sir. I’m going with you.”
         “Oh, thank you Stephanie. That’s the nicest thing…”
         “It’s not for you, sir.”
         “Oh, well. Thank you anyway. Now we have to prepare escape plans…”
         “Already done, sir. Prepared them before I came to talk to you.”
         “Ah, well then.
              [beat]
          Thank you Stephanie. For not leaving me behind.”
         “Quite all right, sir.”
         “You know we’re going to have to spend the rest of our lives listening to that Cameron idiot blather on about how he beat the traffic to some airport or other, don’t you.”
         “Yes sir.”
         “Still, how likely is it that they’re going to want a giant pig out of the blue.”
         “They are highly religious, sir. They may have their own rather… special… requests.”
         “We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.”
         “You always said that attitude displays very poor logistics planning, sir.”
         “We don’t live in a perfect world, Stephanie.”

         “We don’t live in a perfect world, Stephanie.”
     

  • Kukulkan

    LunaticFringe wrote:

    I would have paid much more attention to those math problems about a train leaving Detroit at 60 mph if someone had told me they might one day be essential for catching a vampire.
    Well, as any good teacher knows, it’s all in how you present the problem…

  • Kukulkan

    LunaticFringe wrote:

    I would have paid much more attention to those math problems about a train leaving Detroit at 60 mph if someone had told me they might one day be essential for catching a vampire.
    Well, as any good teacher knows, it’s all in how you present the problem…

  • LunaticFringe

    Actually I had more recent math books that were very conscious of being inclusive, so we got things like calculating the angles for the wheelchair ramp Pablo and Kenichi are making.

  • LunaticFringe

    Actually I had more recent math books that were very conscious of being inclusive, so we got things like calculating the angles for the wheelchair ramp Pablo and Kenichi are making.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    Congratulations! You’ve created compelling characters and a fast-moving plot, both of which manage to make logistics interesting! You’re a better writer than Ellenjay!
    I really did enjoy that. I love Catch-22 stories about bureaucracy gone mad.

  • http://from1angle.wordpress.com emilyperson

    Congratulations! You’ve created compelling characters and a fast-moving plot, both of which manage to make logistics interesting! You’re a better writer than Ellenjay!
    I really did enjoy that. I love Catch-22 stories about bureaucracy gone mad.

  • hapax

    That?  Was awesome.

    Only one thing was lacking…

    “Budget’s not the problem, sir. The technical specifications are… ‘Pig
    must have nostrils large enough to accommodate a man’s fist’.”
              [beat]
         “Sir?”
         “That would be one big pig.”
         “Yes sir.”

    The line really needs to be “That would be Some Pig.“

  • hapax

    That?  Was awesome.

    Only one thing was lacking…

    “Budget’s not the problem, sir. The technical specifications are… ‘Pig
    must have nostrils large enough to accommodate a man’s fist’.”
              [beat]
         “Sir?”
         “That would be one big pig.”
         “Yes sir.”

    The line really needs to be “That would be Some Pig.“

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    When I was in school there was a phase of trying to use names that were neither gender nor culture specific. Kim made an appearance in every test.

    Tangentally related: banks introduced ‘non-activity’ fees when I was studying consumer arithmetic in school, which really buggered up all the questions that went “Pat put $100 in a bank account earning 5% interest p.a. Assuming interest was compounded and calculated daily, how much would Pat have in 5 years?” Answer: nothing; the $100 would have been eaten in fees.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    When I was in school there was a phase of trying to use names that were neither gender nor culture specific. Kim made an appearance in every test.

    Tangentally related: banks introduced ‘non-activity’ fees when I was studying consumer arithmetic in school, which really buggered up all the questions that went “Pat put $100 in a bank account earning 5% interest p.a. Assuming interest was compounded and calculated daily, how much would Pat have in 5 years?” Answer: nothing; the $100 would have been eaten in fees.

  • Kukulkan

    hapax wrote:

    The line really needs to be “That would be Some Pig.”

    And thus you demonstrate what editors are for.
    Don’t think there’s any way to go back and change it though.

    Who was the editor on the Left Behind books? Does anyone know? Because many of the infelicities Fred highlights in his blog posts really should have been caught by a good editor.

     

  • Kukulkan

    hapax wrote:

    The line really needs to be “That would be Some Pig.”

    And thus you demonstrate what editors are for.
    Don’t think there’s any way to go back and change it though.

    Who was the editor on the Left Behind books? Does anyone know? Because many of the infelicities Fred highlights in his blog posts really should have been caught by a good editor.

     

  • Anonymous

    That is funny.

  • Anonymous

    That is funny.

  • Rikalous

    I wonder how long it takes before the Potentate’s staff starts asking each other if the boss really adapted to the horror of the Event as well as they thought…

  • Rikalous

    I wonder how long it takes before the Potentate’s staff starts asking each other if the boss really adapted to the horror of the Event as well as they thought…

  • Anonymous

    Maybe the reason Carpathia is like that is because he actually saw his children get vaporized and knows exactly why.

  • Anonymous

    Maybe the reason Carpathia is like that is because he actually saw his children get vaporized and knows exactly why.

    I know he doesn’t have children, but he doesn’t really have coherent motives either, so I guess it all balances out somewhere.

  • nanananana

    would that be meta-nicky?

  • nanananana

    would that be meta-nicky?

  • Lori

     Who was the editor on the Left Behind books? Does anyone know? Because many of the infelicities Fred highlights in his blog posts really should have been caught by a good editor.  

    There’s very little evidence that there was one, but there must have been. If these are the edited versions can you imagine what the draft was like? [shudder] 

    I sort of fear saying anything more in case someone pops up in the comments claiming to be the editor. I speak from experience when I say that’s a tad awkward. 

  • Lori

     Who was the editor on the Left Behind books? Does anyone know? Because many of the infelicities Fred highlights in his blog posts really should have been caught by a good editor.  

    There’s very little evidence that there was one, but there must have been. If these are the edited versions can you imagine what the draft was like? [shudder] 

    I sort of fear saying anything more in case someone pops up in the comments claiming to be the editor. I speak from experience when I say that’s a tad awkward. 

  • Anonymous

    I thought I read in an earlier thread that the books were self-edited.  Might have been mistaken on that one though.

  • Anonymous

    I thought I read in an earlier thread that the books were self-edited.  Might have been mistaken on that one though.

  • Rikalous

    would that be meta-nicky?

    Excellent. At the rate we’re going, we should have an entire meta-cast by the time the deconstructions are done. At the rate Fred’s going, that’ll take a century or so, but it will be done.

  • Rikalous

    would that be meta-nicky?

    Excellent. At the rate we’re going, we should have an entire meta-cast by the time the deconstructions are done. At the rate Fred’s going, that’ll take a century or so, but it will be done.

  • Anonymous

    Who was the editor on the Left Behind books? Does anyone
    know? Because many of the infelicities Fred highlights in his blog posts
    really should have been caught by a good editor.

    BAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Dude! You’re talking about Jerry Jenkins! THE Jerry Jenkins! The Greatest Investigative Reporter Christian Author of All Time! I mean, I wouldn’t say his words were divinely inspired, but hey, Paul hisself wishes he was that smooth, amirite? Geez, to even IMPLY that Jerry Jenkins might need an author? Not heresy, man, but you’re cuttin’ it mighty fine.

  • Anonymous

    Who was the editor on the Left Behind books? Does anyone
    know? Because many of the infelicities Fred highlights in his blog posts
    really should have been caught by a good editor.

    BAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Dude! You’re talking about Jerry Jenkins! THE Jerry Jenkins! The Greatest Investigative Reporter Christian Author of All Time! I mean, I wouldn’t say his words were divinely inspired, but hey, Paul hisself wishes he was that smooth, amirite? Geez, to even IMPLY that Jerry Jenkins might need an author? Not heresy, man, but you’re cuttin’ it mighty fine.

  • Anonymous

    Who was the editor on the Left Behind books? Does anyone
    know? Because many of the infelicities Fred highlights in his blog posts
    really should have been caught by a good editor.

    BAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Dude! You’re talking about Jerry Jenkins! THE Jerry Jenkins! The Greatest Investigative Reporter Christian Author of All Time! I mean, I wouldn’t say his words were divinely inspired, but hey, Paul hisself wishes he was that smooth, amirite? Geez, to even IMPLY that Jerry Jenkins might need an author? Not heresy, man, but you’re cuttin’ it mighty fine.

  • Matri

    “We don’t live in a perfect world, Stephanie.”

    I hope you understand that I’m trying to compliment you when I say that this whole thing reads like a clip from West Wing.

    In other words: I love it!

  • Matri

    “We don’t live in a perfect world, Stephanie.”

    I hope you understand that I’m trying to compliment you when I say that this whole thing reads like a clip from West Wing.

    In other words: I love it!

  • Julezyme

    “sir?”

    Aunursa, I am laughing so hard breakfast cereal is coming out of my nose. (My 0.6 cm diameter nostril.)

  • Julezyme

    “sir?”

    Aunursa, I am laughing so hard breakfast cereal is coming out of my nose. (My 0.6 cm diameter nostril.)

  • Julezyme

    “sir?”

    Aunursa, I am laughing so hard breakfast cereal is coming out of my nose. (My 0.6 cm diameter nostril.)

  • chris the cynic

    One of the things that stands out to me about the whole pig thing is that the guy who is delegating the task to David at least recognized that this was going to be a difficult task to be worked out in advance.  He might not have been willing to do it himself, but that probably shows a certain level of intelligence on his part since it’s not exactly a task you want to be assigned.  (Let the secret Christian do it seems like a good plan, all things considered.)

    While his role was basically to hand the task off to someone else he did take the initiative and realize that the more time for this the better.  What was his reward?

    Well when he let slip that he had been trying to get it done and already succeeded his friend was murdered for telling him.  He then killed himself.

    That sounds like a great way to run an organization in.

    In the future everyone will know not to do what Nicolae Pork Chop Hill wants until he tells them personally.  Not a problem until you remember that he doesn’t tell them personally until three minutes to midnight.

    “Head potato wants a pig but doesn’t plan to formally announce it until time constraints will make getting a pig of these dimensions even further from possible.  We’d better not try to do something while there’s still time to do it, he might kill us.”

  • chris the cynic

    One of the things that stands out to me about the whole pig thing is that the guy who is delegating the task to David at least recognized that this was going to be a difficult task to be worked out in advance.  He might not have been willing to do it himself, but that probably shows a certain level of intelligence on his part since it’s not exactly a task you want to be assigned.  (Let the secret Christian do it seems like a good plan, all things considered.)

    While his role was basically to hand the task off to someone else he did take the initiative and realize that the more time for this the better.  What was his reward?

    Well when he let slip that he had been trying to get it done and already succeeded his friend was murdered for telling him.  He then killed himself.

    That sounds like a great way to run an organization in.

    In the future everyone will know not to do what Nicolae Pork Chop Hill wants until he tells them personally.  Not a problem until you remember that he doesn’t tell them personally until three minutes to midnight.

    “Head potato wants a pig but doesn’t plan to formally announce it until time constraints will make getting a pig of these dimensions even further from possible.  We’d better not try to do something while there’s still time to do it, he might kill us.”

  • http://stealingcommas.blogspot.com/ chris the cynic

    One of the things that stands out to me about the whole pig thing is that the guy who is delegating the task to David at least recognized that this was going to be a difficult task to be worked out in advance.  He might not have been willing to do it himself, but that probably shows a certain level of intelligence on his part since it’s not exactly a task you want to be assigned.  (Let the secret Christian do it seems like a good plan, all things considered.)

    While his role was basically to hand the task off to someone else he did take the initiative and realize that the more time for this the better.  What was his reward?

    Well when he let slip that he had been trying to get it done and already succeeded his friend was murdered for telling him.  He then killed himself.

    That sounds like a great way to run an organization in.

    In the future everyone will know not to do what Nicolae Pork Chop Hill wants until he tells them personally.  Not a problem until you remember that he doesn’t tell them personally until three minutes to midnight.

    “Head potato wants a pig but doesn’t plan to formally announce it until time constraints will make getting a pig of these dimensions even further from possible.  We’d better not try to do something while there’s still time to do it, he might kill us.”

  • chris the cynic

    You’re talking about Jerry Jenkins! THE Jerry Jenkins!

    All I can think when I read something like this is:

    Person: “You are Jerry Jenkins?”
    Jenkins: “Don’t shout or they’ll all want one.”
    Person: “THE Jerry Jenkins?”
    Jenkins: “No, just A Jerry Jenkins.  Haven’t you heard I come in six packs?”

    I can’t think of what the lead up would be though.  What could Jenkins say that would be equivalent to, “Yeah, count the heads”?  Check out the stilted prose?  Count the unfortunate implications?  Look at the blatant sexism?  Is there a way to reference the quality of the names of his characters, like, “Yeah,” flashes a draft of his novel in progress, “Apocalypse Dawn staring Jewy McJewstein.”

  • http://stealingcommas.blogspot.com/ chris the cynic

    You’re talking about Jerry Jenkins! THE Jerry Jenkins!

    All I can think when I read something like this is:

    Person: “You are Jerry Jenkins?”
    Jenkins: “Don’t shout or they’ll all want one.”
    Person: “THE Jerry Jenkins?”
    Jenkins: “No, just A Jerry Jenkins.  Haven’t you heard I come in six packs?”

    I can’t think of what the lead up would be though.  What could Jenkins say that would be equivalent to, “Yeah, count the heads”?

    Check out the stilted prose?  Count the unfortunate implications?  Look at the blatant sexism?  Is there a way to reference the quality of the names of his characters? Perhaps something like, “Yeah,” flashes a draft of his novel in progress, “Apocalypse Dawn staring Jewy McJewstein.”

  • Lonespark

    I love you.

  • Lonespark

    I love you.

  • Anonymous

    Sorry this is late but I had to ask:

    Do you remember the title for either of those ridiculous novels? I enjoy snarking at unintentionally hilarious (and bad) romance novels.

  • Anonymous

    Sorry this is late but I had to ask:

    Do you remember the title for either of those ridiculous novels? I enjoy snarking at unintentionally hilarious (and bad) romance novels.

  • Saint_Sithney

    Oddly, this reads almost exactly like several of the scenes in ‘Twilight’, though those are bigger set pieces. Emotional pornography vs. spiritual pornography.

    I know someone who got her first kiss at the altar, though she wasn’t a devotee of Gothard (and went to the University of Virginia, not Bob Jones). She just got the idea that it would be really sweet. It worked for her, but this flashed me back to a male friend of mine who wouldn’t sit in a car with me on a cold night when we were talking after class because it might look inappropriate and he was saving his first kiss for his wife. I had no intention of kissing him or trying to kiss him, and he knew I was dating someone else, but he’d get kind of freaked out if I sat next to him. He seemed to think it was awfully forward when our class ended and I offered him a handshake in appreciation of our friendship. It was a ballroom dancing class, and I honestly am still not sure of how he got through learning how to tango and having a woman pressed against his body.

  • Saint_Sithney

    Oddly, this reads almost exactly like several of the scenes in ‘Twilight’, though those are bigger set pieces. Emotional pornography vs. spiritual pornography.

    I know someone who got her first kiss at the altar, though she wasn’t a devotee of Gothard (and went to the University of Virginia, not Bob Jones). She just got the idea that it would be really sweet. It worked for her, but this flashed me back to a male friend of mine who wouldn’t sit in a car with me on a cold night when we were talking after class because it might look inappropriate and he was saving his first kiss for his wife. I had no intention of kissing him or trying to kiss him, and he knew I was dating someone else, but he’d get kind of freaked out if I sat next to him. He seemed to think it was awfully forward when our class ended and I offered him a handshake in appreciation of our friendship. It was a ballroom dancing class, and I honestly am still not sure of how he got through learning how to tango and having a woman pressed against his body.

  • Persia

    I’m assuming it’s because their — gasp! — bodies would have to be closer.

  • Persia

    I’m assuming it’s because their — gasp! — bodies would have to be closer.

  • Panda Rosa

     Which does sum up a LOT of the songs I’ve heard on Christian music stations. 
    There may be other types out there, but I never seem to catch them when I’m flipping the dial, and there’s little incentive to linger.
    Is this also why at least half the covers on Christian fiction seem to feature girls in Amish-style bonnets and clothes?

  • Panda Rosa

     Which does sum up a LOT of the songs I’ve heard on Christian music stations. 
    There may be other types out there, but I never seem to catch them when I’m flipping the dial, and there’s little incentive to linger.
    Is this also why at least half the covers on Christian fiction seem to feature girls in Amish-style bonnets and clothes?

  • Panda Rosa

    Sorry about the above post, pasted the comment wrong. Oops!

  • Panda Rosa

    Sorry about the above post, pasted the comment wrong. Oops!

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman tries to start a Christian music group to win a bet, figuring that it would be easy to go gold because the standards are so low.  He makes Christian pop songs by taking existing love songs and replacing the word “baby” with “Jesus.”  It leads to lyrics like:

    “I want to get down on my knees and please Jesus.  I want to feel his salvation all over my face!”

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman tries to start a Christian music group to win a bet, figuring that it would be easy to go gold because the standards are so low.  He makes Christian pop songs by taking existing love songs and replacing the word “baby” with “Jesus.”  It leads to lyrics like:

    “I want to get down on my knees and please Jesus.  I want to feel his salvation all over my face!”

  • Rob Brown

    Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

    If L&J actually established Buck as a virgin because they believed that, it strikes me as pretty stupid.  Christianity has all kinds of stories about people sinning their asses off and then seeing the light and being forgiven, right?  Mary Magdalene, to name just one.

    So how would it have been bad for Buck to start out as a promiscuous womanizer who didn’t truly care about any of his partners, and then grow into a better person, somebody who learned to care about other people and see them as more than just fuckbuddies?  And if the authors were really dead set against premarital sex, it could still theoretically work.  Maybe Chloe says she wants to wait, Buck says okay, and they keep seeing one another and falling deeper in love, Buck at some point realizes that he cares for this woman in a way he’s never cared for anybody else and that this relationship actually means something to him, etc.

    But instead they, what, went with “He’s a virgin, but he IS interested in women, really!  And always has been!  And women love him too!  He just never got around to having sex with a woman, that’s all.  He had things to do.  He’s the GIRAT, after all!  And then of course he found God and realized how filthy and sinful it would’ve been if he had, so that’s why he’s not doing it with Chloe!”

    Really?

  • Rob Brown

    Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

    If L&J actually established Buck as a virgin because they believed that, it strikes me as pretty stupid.  Christianity has all kinds of stories about people sinning their asses off and then seeing the light and being forgiven, right?  Mary Magdalene, to name just one.

    So how would it have been bad for Buck to start out as a promiscuous womanizer who didn’t truly care about any of his partners, and then grow into a better person, somebody who learned to care about other people and see them as more than just fuckbuddies?  And if the authors were really dead set against premarital sex, it could still theoretically work.  Maybe Chloe says she wants to wait, Buck says okay, and they keep seeing one another and falling deeper in love, Buck at some point realizes that he cares for this woman in a way he’s never cared for anybody else and that this relationship actually means something to him, etc.

    But instead they, what, went with “He’s a virgin, but he IS interested in women, really!  And always has been!  And women love him too!  He just never got around to having sex with a woman, that’s all.  He had things to do.  He’s the GIRAT, after all!  And then of course he found God and realized how filthy and sinful it would’ve been if he had, so that’s why he’s not doing it with Chloe!”

    Really?

  • Rob Brown

    Because you couldn’t have a Christian “hero” who had actually had sex outside of marriage…

    If L&J actually established Buck as a virgin because they believed that, it strikes me as pretty stupid.  Christianity has all kinds of stories about people sinning their asses off and then seeing the light and being forgiven, right?  Mary Magdalene, to name just one.

    So how would it have been bad for Buck to start out as a promiscuous womanizer who didn’t truly care about any of his partners, and then grow into a better person, somebody who learned to care about other people and see them as more than just fuckbuddies?  And if the authors were really dead set against premarital sex, it could still theoretically work.  Maybe Chloe says she wants to wait, Buck says okay, and they keep seeing one another and falling deeper in love, Buck at some point realizes that he cares for this woman in a way he’s never cared for anybody else and that this relationship actually means something to him, etc.

    But instead they, what, went with “He’s a virgin, but he IS interested in women, really!  And always has been!  And women love him too!  He just never got around to having sex with a woman, that’s all.  He had things to do.  He’s the GIRAT, after all!  And then of course he found God and realized how filthy and sinful it would’ve been if he had, so that’s why he’s not doing it with Chloe!”

    Really?

  • Rob Brown

    Buck and Chloe’s pre-martial virginity makes no sense within the story
    or within any reasonable version of Christianity. It’s there only to
    meet the requirements of the Tydale author guidelines which were crafted
    to guarantee that no Tydale book will offend the most easily offended
    person in the target audience.

    Getting caught up and saw this after I posted my last comment about how it was unrealistic to write Buck the way they have and keep him a virgin.  (You could make a case for Chloe too, but it’s even more egregious–drink up, everybody who plays the TV Tropes drinking game–with Buck, since he’s not getting any younger.)

    So now I understand why they left out the sex, but I find myself thinking about the often-made observation that censors tend to be strangely less worried about violence than about sex, even gruesome violence.  Tyndale’s apparently no exception.  I mean, we had a guy BURNED ALIVE earlier in this book.  The description even made Fred go “Ewwww”, and I think he’s a whole lot less squeamish than the average RTC.  You’d think that would offend the most easily offended people in the target audience as well.  Guess not.

  • Rob Brown

    Buck and Chloe’s pre-martial virginity makes no sense within the story
    or within any reasonable version of Christianity. It’s there only to
    meet the requirements of the Tydale author guidelines which were crafted
    to guarantee that no Tydale book will offend the most easily offended
    person in the target audience.

    Getting caught up and saw this after I posted my last comment about how it was unrealistic to write Buck the way they have and keep him a virgin.  (You could make a case for Chloe too, but it’s even more egregious–drink up, everybody who plays the TV Tropes drinking game–with Buck, since he’s not getting any younger.)

    So now I understand why they left out the sex, but I find myself thinking about the often-made observation that censors tend to be strangely less worried about violence than about sex, even gruesome violence.  Tyndale’s apparently no exception.  I mean, we had a guy BURNED ALIVE earlier in this book.  The description even made Fred go “Ewwww”, and I think he’s a whole lot less squeamish than the average RTC.  You’d think that would offend the most easily offended people in the target audience as well.  Guess not.

  • chris the cynic

    The deaths or non RTCs are not offensive to RTCs, at least not the kind of RTC in LB’s target audience.

  • http://stealingcommas.blogspot.com/ chris the cynic

    The deaths of non RTCs are not offensive to RTCs, at least not the kind of RTC in LB’s target audience.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Ahh, but you see the problem is, that would make Buck flawed, and as Buck is the literary incarnation of one of our dear writers, flaws are verbotten.  Otherwise you may think Ellenjay are less than perfect.

    Ellenjay are to writing what Rob Liefield is to comic book art.  Once in awhile they start to do something vaguely interesting, but odds are good they’ll manage to ruin even that through some random stupidity.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Ahh, but you see the problem is, that would make Buck flawed, and as Buck is the literary incarnation of one of our dear writers, flaws are verbotten.  Otherwise you may think Ellenjay are less than perfect.

    Ellenjay are to writing what Rob Liefield is to comic book art.  Once in awhile they start to do something vaguely interesting, but odds are good they’ll manage to ruin even that through some random stupidity.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    I think that’s largely an American phenomena.  From what I understand in a lot of places (Germany is one I hear most often), it’s the other way around.  (Maybe not quite to the same degree however.)

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    I think that’s largely an American phenomena.  From what I understand in a lot of places (Germany is one I hear most often), it’s the other way around.  (Maybe not quite to the same degree however.)

  • Lori

     Ahh, but you see the problem is, that would make Buck flawed, and as Buck is the literary incarnation of one of our dear writers, flaws are verbotten.  Otherwise you may think Ellenjay are less than perfect.  

    You might even think one of them had had sex outside of marriage. [Gasp]

    This is but one of the many reasons that the author avatar is a very bad idea. 

  • Lori

     Ahh, but you see the problem is, that would make Buck flawed, and as Buck is the literary incarnation of one of our dear writers, flaws are verbotten.  Otherwise you may think Ellenjay are less than perfect.  

    You might even think one of them had had sex outside of marriage. [Gasp]

    This is but one of the many reasons that the author avatar is a very bad idea.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I think one should only add an author avatar if one is a masochist.  If you do not savage your own avatar character, readers will savage them for you.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I think one should only add an author avatar if one is a masochist.  If you do not savage your own avatar character, readers will savage them for you.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    I think one should only add an author avatar if one is a masochist.  If you do not savage your own avatar character, readers will savage them for you.  

  • Anonymous

    I once did some random reading in the romance genre, as many of the potential stories I have in mind to write might fall in that genre. And let me tell you, picking random books off the shelf is a very good way to find out for yourself just how BAD a romantic or sex scene in a published book can be. My first thought upon reading Buck and Chloe’s kiss was honestly, “I’ve seen worse. Much, much worse.” 

    What stunned me when I downloaded a few Harlequin romances onto my iTouch (don’t look at me that way: they were free and I was under a lot of stress at the time) was how bad the smut was. I don’t mean just bad in the sense that it didn’t satisfy any of my personal kinks — I mean it just didn’t work well. Like most geeks my age, my first real exposure to sex scenes occurred in the context of fanfiction — and some of that stuff is good.

    Of course, others explained this first — and better. See Making Light for details.

  • Anonymous

    I once did some random reading in the romance genre, as many of the potential stories I have in mind to write might fall in that genre. And let me tell you, picking random books off the shelf is a very good way to find out for yourself just how BAD a romantic or sex scene in a published book can be. My first thought upon reading Buck and Chloe’s kiss was honestly, “I’ve seen worse. Much, much worse.” 

    What stunned me when I downloaded a few Harlequin romances onto my iTouch (don’t look at me that way: they were free and I was under a lot of stress at the time) was how bad the smut was. I don’t mean just bad in the sense that it didn’t satisfy any of my personal kinks — I mean it just didn’t work well. Like most geeks my age, my first real exposure to sex scenes occurred in the context of fanfiction — and some of that stuff is good.

    Of course, others explained this first — and better. See Making Light for details.

  • Anonymous

    I once did some random reading in the romance genre, as many of the potential stories I have in mind to write might fall in that genre. And let me tell you, picking random books off the shelf is a very good way to find out for yourself just how BAD a romantic or sex scene in a published book can be. My first thought upon reading Buck and Chloe’s kiss was honestly, “I’ve seen worse. Much, much worse.” 

    What stunned me when I downloaded a few Harlequin romances onto my iTouch (don’t look at me that way: they were free and I was under a lot of stress at the time) was how bad the smut was. I don’t mean just bad in the sense that it didn’t satisfy any of my personal kinks — I mean it just didn’t work well. Like most geeks my age, my first real exposure to sex scenes occurred in the context of fanfiction — and some of that stuff is good.

    Of course, others explained this first — and better. See Making Light for details.

  • Kukulkan

    nanananana wrote:

    would that be meta-nicky?

    Okay, I’m still somewhat new here, and while I’ve picked up on a bunch of the in-jokes and references, this one eludes me.

    What’s a “meta-nicky”? Or a “meta-buck”? Or a meta-anything? I assume there are meta versions of each of the characters in Left Behind.

    Oh, and nanananana, your screen name makes me think of the theme to the old Batman TV show. Is that deliberate? Or just a happy coincidence?

  • Kukulkan

    nanananana wrote:

    would that be meta-nicky?

    Okay, I’m still somewhat new here, and while I’ve picked up on a bunch of the in-jokes and references, this one eludes me.

    What’s a “meta-nicky”? Or a “meta-buck”? Or a meta-anything? I assume there are meta versions of each of the characters in Left Behind.

    Oh, and nanananana, your screen name makes me think of the theme to the old Batman TV show. Is that deliberate? Or just a happy coincidence?

  • Kukulkan

    SisterCoyote wrote:

    BAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Dude! You’re talking about Jerry Jenkins! THE Jerry Jenkins!

    Well, I assumed as the series got more and more successful, the editing most likely got lighter and lighter — that’s what happens with a many successful authors — but I assume the early books in the series would have been edited as normal.

    Or was Jenkins already a big name when the first book came out?
     

  • Kukulkan

    SisterCoyote wrote:

    BAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Dude! You’re talking about Jerry Jenkins! THE Jerry Jenkins!

    Well, I assumed as the series got more and more successful, the editing most likely got lighter and lighter — that’s what happens with a many successful authors — but I assume the early books in the series would have been edited as normal.

    Or was Jenkins already a big name when the first book came out?
     

  • Kukulkan

    Matri wrote:

    I hope you understand that I’m trying to compliment you when I say that this whole thing reads like a clip from West Wing.

    In other words: I love it!

    I take that as a great compliment. I love Aaron Sorkin’s writing. He does great dialogue. The only reason I sought out Sports Night — since I don’t care sports, I normally wouldn’t even have looked at a show with that title — was because I knew he was the writer. And it paid off.

    Actually, a West Wing type series set in the headquarters of the Anti-Christ would make for an interesting show. I mean you get a bunch of people trying to make this Global Community thing work and they just have to keep coping with these utterly insane commands that keep coming down from the Supreme Potentate.

    It would turn a bug of these Last Days Timelines into a feature. The fact that the Anti-Christ’s actions make less and less sense would be what the series would be about. And the actual Supreme Potentate would just be this distant figure, representing every crazy and unreasonable boss ever.

    Seriously, I would pay money to read/watch something like that.
     

  • Kukulkan

    Matri wrote:

    I hope you understand that I’m trying to compliment you when I say that this whole thing reads like a clip from West Wing.

    In other words: I love it!

    I take that as a great compliment. I love Aaron Sorkin’s writing. He does great dialogue. The only reason I sought out Sports Night — since I don’t care sports, I normally wouldn’t even have looked at a show with that title — was because I knew he was the writer. And it paid off.

    Actually, a West Wing type series set in the headquarters of the Anti-Christ would make for an interesting show. I mean you get a bunch of people trying to make this Global Community thing work and they just have to keep coping with these utterly insane commands that keep coming down from the Supreme Potentate.

    It would turn a bug of these Last Days Timelines into a feature. The fact that the Anti-Christ’s actions make less and less sense would be what the series would be about. And the actual Supreme Potentate would just be this distant figure, representing every crazy and unreasonable boss ever.

    Seriously, I would pay money to read/watch something like that.
     

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Absolutely – the only way an author avatar works is if the author is willing to look into a mirror and see every bump, wart, scar and pimple, and accurately reflect them in addition.  Writing fiction on some level requires an incredible degree of honesty with oneself.  Probably part of why these books are… well… these books.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Absolutely – the only way an author avatar works is if the author is willing to look into a mirror and see every bump, wart, scar and pimple, and accurately reflect them in addition.  Writing fiction on some level requires an incredible degree of honesty with oneself.  Probably part of why these books are… well… these books.

  • Anonymous

    What’s a “meta-nicky”? Or a “meta-buck”? Or a meta-anything? I assume there are meta versions of each of the characters in Left Behind.

    Occasionally, despite LaHaye and Jenkins’ best efforts, a LB character will display a glimpse of actual personality, good sense, or humanity, even if only for a single line of dialogue.  When that happens, we sometimes think of it as the characters’ “real” selves (i.e. the people they would be if they weren’t the puppets of a couple of ideologically-driven hack writers) rebelling and making themselves heard, just for a moment.

    For example, once in a while L&J will slip up and Chloe will demonstrate a little backbone or intelligence, the way a real college student might.  That’s meta-Chloe shining through – sadly, it usually only lasts a second or two before our authors notice and force her back into the dull, nonquestioning doormat role they’ve assigned her.

    Ironically, if L&J were better at writing, it might be worse because their characters would be more consistently awful.  Here, at least, we can look forward to the moments when they screw up and make their characters unintentionally palatable.

  • Anonymous

    What’s a “meta-nicky”? Or a “meta-buck”? Or a meta-anything? I assume there are meta versions of each of the characters in Left Behind.

    Occasionally, despite LaHaye and Jenkins’ best efforts, a LB character will display a glimpse of actual personality, good sense, or humanity, even if only for a single line of dialogue.  When that happens, we sometimes think of it as the characters’ “real” selves (i.e. the people they would be if they weren’t the puppets of a couple of ideologically-driven hack writers) rebelling and making themselves heard, just for a moment.

    For example, once in a while L&J will slip up and Chloe will demonstrate a little backbone or intelligence, the way a real college student might.  That’s meta-Chloe shining through – sadly, it usually only lasts a second or two before our authors notice and force her back into the dull, nonquestioning doormat role they’ve assigned her.

    Ironically, if L&J were better at writing, it might be worse because their characters would be more consistently awful.  Here, at least, we can look forward to the moments when they screw up and make their characters unintentionally palatable.

  • Anonymous

    “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the pig as well. Sir.”
         “What?”
         “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the giant pig around the Temple and then sacrifice it. Sir.”

    You can just hear Stephanie struggling to stay professional in the midst of complete absurdity.  I think this was my favorite part.  Then again, I think every part was my favorite part.  Very funny!

  • Anonymous

    “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the pig as well. Sir.”
         “What?”
         “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the giant pig around the Temple and then sacrifice it. Sir.”

    You can just hear Stephanie struggling to stay professional in the midst of complete absurdity.  I think this was my favorite part.  Then again, I think every part was my favorite part.  Very funny!

  • Anonymous

    “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the pig as well. Sir.”
         “What?”
         “I think the Supreme Potentate is going to want to ride the giant pig around the Temple and then sacrifice it. Sir.”

    You can just hear Stephanie struggling to stay professional in the midst of complete absurdity.  I think this was my favorite part.  Then again, I think every part was my favorite part.  Very funny!

  • Kukulkan

    FearlessSon wrote:

    I think one should only add an author avatar if one is a masochist.  If you do not savage your own avatar character, readers will savage them for you.

    I think it’s a function of how good a writer someone is.

    As an example, James Bond was very much a wish-fulfilment figure for Ian Fleming. The first Bond novel, Casino Royale, was based on an actual incident. Fleming was in Portugal during the war and encountered some German agents at a casino (Portugal was neutral, so representatives of all sides could mix). Fleming and a friend decided to clean out the German agents at a game of Chemin de Fer. I didn’t work; Fleming and his friend lost badly.* But in Casino Royale, Bond, as Fleming’s stand-in, succeeds in a similar plan.

    Fleming was a good writer and understood that while James Bond might be wonderful and terrific, the only way Bond could demonstrate that wonderfulness and terrificness was by overcoming obstacles and enduring tribulations, so Fleming made sure to throw in lots of obstacles for Bond to overcome and lots of suffering for him to endure.

    He also understood that if Bond succeeded too easily, then the story would be boring, so Bond had to struggle for his victories.

    Now, this could have been due to a masochism on Fleming’s part, but I think it was more that he was a good writer and could step back from the vicarious ego-gratification to analyse whether or not something was working as a story. And, if it wasn’t, make the appropriate changes.

    The problem with writers like Jenkins isn’t that they have author inserts in their stories, it’s that they seem incapable of that stepping back. Or, perhaps, they’re unaware that such a thing is even possible, let alone desirable.

    It used to be that one of things that distinguished a professional writer from an amateur was that the professional could step back and had the analytical toolbox to examine the story to see if it was working and, if it wasn’t, figure out how to fix it. That doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

    *This version of events is disputed by some, but that’s the way Fleming reported it. Maybe he embellished things to make for a better story, but I think that, even so, the point stands.
     

  • Kukulkan

    FearlessSon wrote:

    I think one should only add an author avatar if one is a masochist.  If you do not savage your own avatar character, readers will savage them for you.

    I think it’s a function of how good a writer someone is.

    As an example, James Bond was very much a wish-fulfilment figure for Ian Fleming. The first Bond novel, Casino Royale, was based on an actual incident. Fleming was in Portugal during the war and encountered some German agents at a casino (Portugal was neutral, so representatives of all sides could mix). Fleming and a friend decided to clean out the German agents at a game of Chemin de Fer. I didn’t work; Fleming and his friend lost badly.* But in Casino Royale, Bond, as Fleming’s stand-in, succeeds in a similar plan.

    Fleming was a good writer and understood that while James Bond might be wonderful and terrific, the only way Bond could demonstrate that wonderfulness and terrificness was by overcoming obstacles and enduring tribulations, so Fleming made sure to throw in lots of obstacles for Bond to overcome and lots of suffering for him to endure.

    He also understood that if Bond succeeded too easily, then the story would be boring, so Bond had to struggle for his victories.

    Now, this could have been due to a masochism on Fleming’s part, but I think it was more that he was a good writer and could step back from the vicarious ego-gratification to analyse whether or not something was working as a story. And, if it wasn’t, make the appropriate changes.

    The problem with writers like Jenkins isn’t that they have author inserts in their stories, it’s that they seem incapable of that stepping back. Or, perhaps, they’re unaware that such a thing is even possible, let alone desirable.

    It used to be that one of things that distinguished a professional writer from an amateur was that the professional could step back and had the analytical toolbox to examine the story to see if it was working and, if it wasn’t, figure out how to fix it. That doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

    *This version of events is disputed by some, but that’s the way Fleming reported it. Maybe he embellished things to make for a better story, but I think that, even so, the point stands.
     

  • Kukulkan

    FearlessSon wrote:

    I think one should only add an author avatar if one is a masochist.  If you do not savage your own avatar character, readers will savage them for you.

    I think it’s a function of how good a writer someone is.

    As an example, James Bond was very much a wish-fulfilment figure for Ian Fleming. The first Bond novel, Casino Royale, was based on an actual incident. Fleming was in Portugal during the war and encountered some German agents at a casino (Portugal was neutral, so representatives of all sides could mix). Fleming and a friend decided to clean out the German agents at a game of Chemin de Fer. I didn’t work; Fleming and his friend lost badly.* But in Casino Royale, Bond, as Fleming’s stand-in, succeeds in a similar plan.

    Fleming was a good writer and understood that while James Bond might be wonderful and terrific, the only way Bond could demonstrate that wonderfulness and terrificness was by overcoming obstacles and enduring tribulations, so Fleming made sure to throw in lots of obstacles for Bond to overcome and lots of suffering for him to endure.

    He also understood that if Bond succeeded too easily, then the story would be boring, so Bond had to struggle for his victories.

    Now, this could have been due to a masochism on Fleming’s part, but I think it was more that he was a good writer and could step back from the vicarious ego-gratification to analyse whether or not something was working as a story. And, if it wasn’t, make the appropriate changes.

    The problem with writers like Jenkins isn’t that they have author inserts in their stories, it’s that they seem incapable of that stepping back. Or, perhaps, they’re unaware that such a thing is even possible, let alone desirable.

    It used to be that one of things that distinguished a professional writer from an amateur was that the professional could step back and had the analytical toolbox to examine the story to see if it was working and, if it wasn’t, figure out how to fix it. That doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

    *This version of events is disputed by some, but that’s the way Fleming reported it. Maybe he embellished things to make for a better story, but I think that, even so, the point stands.
     

  • Kukulkan

     Vermic wrote:

    Occasionally, despite LaHaye and Jenkins’ best efforts, a LB character will display a glimpse of actual personality, good sense, or humanity, even if only for a single line of dialogue.  When that happens, we sometimes think of it as the characters’ “real” selves (i.e. the people they would be if they weren’t the puppets of a couple of ideologically-driven hack writers) rebelling and making themselves heard, just for a moment.

    For example, once in a while L&J will slip up and Chloe will demonstrate a little backbone or intelligence, the way a real college student might.  That’s meta-Chloe shining through — sadly, it usually only lasts a second or two before our authors notice and force her back into the dull, nonquestioning doormat role they’ve assigned her.

    Oh, okay. I get it.

    That’s a really cool concept. And I can see how it would make going through these sort of books much more endurable.

    Ironically, if L&J were better at writing, it might be worse because their characters would be more consistently awful.  Here, at least, we can look forward to the moments when they screw up and make their characters unintentionally palatable.

    Well, it’s impossible to screw up all the time, no matter how hard you try.

  • Kukulkan

     Vermic wrote:

    Occasionally, despite LaHaye and Jenkins’ best efforts, a LB character will display a glimpse of actual personality, good sense, or humanity, even if only for a single line of dialogue.  When that happens, we sometimes think of it as the characters’ “real” selves (i.e. the people they would be if they weren’t the puppets of a couple of ideologically-driven hack writers) rebelling and making themselves heard, just for a moment.

    For example, once in a while L&J will slip up and Chloe will demonstrate a little backbone or intelligence, the way a real college student might.  That’s meta-Chloe shining through — sadly, it usually only lasts a second or two before our authors notice and force her back into the dull, nonquestioning doormat role they’ve assigned her.

    Oh, okay. I get it.

    That’s a really cool concept. And I can see how it would make going through these sort of books much more endurable.

    Ironically, if L&J were better at writing, it might be worse because their characters would be more consistently awful.  Here, at least, we can look forward to the moments when they screw up and make their characters unintentionally palatable.

    Well, it’s impossible to screw up all the time, no matter how hard you try.

  • Anon

    [blockquote]There’s very little evidence that there was one, but there must have
    been. If these are the edited versions can you imagine what the draft
    was like?[/blockquote]

    I just imagine the authors took the editor’s revisions and wrote across the top, “STET the whole damn thing.”

    (A real author supposedly really did that, but I don’t remember who it’s attributed to, and it might be an urban legend).

    For those wondering, stet means “let it stand.” It’s a way of saying, “No, go with what I wrote, not what the editor wants it changed to.”

  • Anon

    [blockquote]There’s very little evidence that there was one, but there must have
    been. If these are the edited versions can you imagine what the draft
    was like?[/blockquote]

    I just imagine the authors took the editor’s revisions and wrote across the top, “STET the whole damn thing.”

    (A real author supposedly really did that, but I don’t remember who it’s attributed to, and it might be an urban legend).

    For those wondering, stet means “let it stand.” It’s a way of saying, “No, go with what I wrote, not what the editor wants it changed to.”

  • Anonymous

    I should have clarified, I meant Good Christian Girls within the context of the Left Behind world.  In the real world, I’ve known plenty of good Christians who were ok enjoying sex.  I just don’t picture LaJenkins approving, especially knowing that their idea of a thousand-year paradise is one in which even married couples aren’t attracted to one another anymore (I don’t know the passage off the top of my head, but I know it’s in there somewhere).

  • Anonymous

    I should have clarified, I meant Good Christian Girls within the context of the Left Behind world.  In the real world, I’ve known plenty of good Christians who were ok enjoying sex.  I just don’t picture LaJenkins approving, especially knowing that their idea of a thousand-year paradise is one in which even married couples aren’t attracted to one another anymore (I don’t know the passage off the top of my head, but I know it’s in there somewhere).

  • chris the cynic

    The post, Meta-Buck gets saved describes when Buck avoided Nicolae’s mind control powers through, apparently, his hitherto unseen journalistic ethics.  It was as if for one brief moment the intrepid reporter we’d been told to expect had actually showed up in the book.

  • http://stealingcommas.blogspot.com/ chris the cynic

    The post, Meta-Buck gets saved describes when Buck avoided Nicolae’s mind control powers through, apparently, his hitherto unseen journalistic ethics.  It was as if for one brief moment the intrepid reporter we’d been told to expect had actually showed up in the book.

    [Added]
    Hopefully this won’t cause disqus to kill this comment, some other Meta things:

    Meta New Hope
    Meta Hattie
    Pretty sure that there should be more to point at, but I’m having trouble locating stuff and I need to go to sleep. Actually, I need to have gone to sleep a while ago.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino
  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Meet the first instance of meta-anyone here:

    http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2008/06/20/lb-meta-buck-ge/

    Oooh, ninja’d. :P

  • Rikalous

    Well, it’s impossible to screw up all the time, no matter how hard you try.

    That sounds like a challenge.

  • Rikalous

    Well, it’s impossible to screw up all the time, no matter how hard you try.

    That sounds like a challenge.

  • Rob Brown

    I’m sure that’s true for some of them, but aren’t some also all about
    trying to convert everybody before they die? (And while they may try to
    do this in pushy, horribly ineffective, and sometimes downright
    infuriating ways–such as leaving a “tip” that looks like money at first
    but upon closer inspection is actually a tract that’s supposed to lift
    the scales from the eyes of whosoever readeth it–I’d say that annoying
    me by trying to keep me from ending up in Hell is a lesser evil than
    thinking “Haw haw, he’s going to Hell and I’m not!”)

    So if we decide to be optimistic about the inhabitants of RTC-land and
    assume that some of LB’s target audience are the sort of people Fred has
    described in other posts I’m too lazy to search for and link to, i.e.
    people who think that they need to save everybody by witnessing to them
    even when they’re worried about the reaction they’ll get and really
    don’t want to, then those RTCs probably don’t like it when somebody dies
    before gaining RTC status.

    Which isn’t to say that there aren’t still plenty who don’t give a shit
    about the eternal suffering of others and hold the “Just wait until
    you’re in Hell and I’m in Heaven, then you’ll see I was right!” view.  I
    know because, unfortunately, I’ve had the misfortune of interacting
    with a few.

  • Rob Brown

    I’m sure that’s true for some of them, but aren’t some also all about
    trying to convert everybody before they die? (And while they may try to
    do this in pushy, horribly ineffective, and sometimes downright
    infuriating ways–such as leaving a “tip” that looks like money at first
    but upon closer inspection is actually a tract that’s supposed to lift
    the scales from the eyes of whosoever readeth it–I’d say that annoying
    me by trying to keep me from ending up in Hell is a lesser evil than
    thinking “Haw haw, he’s going to Hell and I’m not!”)

    So if we decide to be optimistic about the inhabitants of RTC-land and
    assume that some of LB’s target audience are the sort of people Fred has
    described in other posts I’m too lazy to search for and link to, i.e.
    people who think that they need to save everybody by witnessing to them
    even when they’re worried about the reaction they’ll get and really
    don’t want to, then those RTCs probably don’t like it when somebody dies
    before gaining RTC status.

    Which isn’t to say that there aren’t still plenty who don’t give a shit
    about the eternal suffering of others and hold the “Just wait until
    you’re in Hell and I’m in Heaven, then you’ll see I was right!” view.  I
    know because, unfortunately, I’ve had the misfortune of interacting
    with a few.

  • Rob Brown

    I had actually been wondering about that too, but was too worried about looking ignorant to ask.  Thanks!

  • Rob Brown

    I had actually been wondering about that too, but was too worried about looking ignorant to ask.  Thanks!

  • Rob Brown

    You might even think one of them had had sex outside of marriage. [Gasp]

    Gah, bite your tongue!  It’s preposterous to think that an RTC like Tim LaHaye would ever do such a thing!

  • Rob Brown

    You might even think one of them had had sex outside of marriage. [Gasp]

    Gah, bite your tongue!  It’s preposterous to think that an RTC like Tim LaHaye would ever do such a thing!

  • Rob Brown

    D’oh, either me or Disqus fucked that last post up; it was supposed to have the word “do” in it and also have a link to Jim Bakker’s Wikipedia page.

  • Rob Brown

    D’oh, either me or Disqus fucked that last post up; it was supposed to have the word “do” in it and also have a link to Jim Bakker’s Wikipedia page.

  • Rob Brown

    If fiction actually does influence behaviour, that’s probably a safer thing to expose people to.

  • Rob Brown

    If fiction actually does influence behaviour, that’s probably a safer thing to expose people to.

  • Kukulkan

    Rob Brown wrote:

    I had actually been wondering about that too, but was too worried about looking ignorant to ask.  Thanks!

    Way back in the distant past, when I was in primary school, I had a reputation for being smart. I once asked one of my classmates Why they thought I was smart and they said it was because I was asking questions all the time.

    This somewhat boggled me. By constantly asking questions wasn’t I demonstrating, repeatedly, that I didn’t know. That I was ignorant. So how could these on-going demonstrations of my ignorance lead others to conclude that I was smart?

    As far as I can tell, it isn’t asking questions that makes you look ignorant, it’s confidently making statements that other people know are wrong.

     

  • Kukulkan

    Rob Brown wrote:

    I had actually been wondering about that too, but was too worried about looking ignorant to ask.  Thanks!

    Way back in the distant past, when I was in primary school, I had a reputation for being smart. I once asked one of my classmates Why they thought I was smart and they said it was because I was asking questions all the time.

    This somewhat boggled me. By constantly asking questions wasn’t I demonstrating, repeatedly, that I didn’t know. That I was ignorant. So how could these on-going demonstrations of my ignorance lead others to conclude that I was smart?

    As far as I can tell, it isn’t asking questions that makes you look ignorant, it’s confidently making statements that other people know are wrong.

     

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    If L&J actually established Buck as a virgin because they believed that, it strikes me as pretty stupid. Christianity has all kinds of stories about people sinning their asses off and then seeing the light and being forgiven, right?

    One of the limitations of their target audience though is that most of the people who will be reading the books will likely be raised in the Evangelical subculture.  They will want a hero who can conform to values that they have held with since birth so they can more easily identify with them, but he must necessarily not begin the story as a Real True Christian or he would be raptured at the begining and not be present for the tribulation. 

    Unfortunately, L&J do not really do a very good job of writing non-Evangelical characters.  I mean, they demonstrate an ignorance of the mentality and motivation of non-Evangelical people that seems hopelessly naive, the kind of conception that only someone who had never been exposed to anyone outside the Evangelical “sphere” would have.  This becomes even more complicated when they try to imagine a non-Evangelical character who, coincidentally, happens to already mesh well with Evangelical values. 

    Granted, there are ways to make a character mesh with Evangelical values while not actually being an Evangelical (at first) that do not seem so implausible and contrived, but the authors of these books rarely seem to think things through enough to come up with one in the first place.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    If L&J actually established Buck as a virgin because they believed that, it strikes me as pretty stupid. Christianity has all kinds of stories about people sinning their asses off and then seeing the light and being forgiven, right?

    One of the limitations of their target audience though is that most of the people who will be reading the books will likely be raised in the Evangelical subculture.  They will want a hero who can conform to values that they have held with since birth so they can more easily identify with them, but he must necessarily not begin the story as a Real True Christian or he would be raptured at the begining and not be present for the tribulation. 

    Unfortunately, L&J do not really do a very good job of writing non-Evangelical characters.  I mean, they demonstrate an ignorance of the mentality and motivation of non-Evangelical people that seems hopelessly naive, the kind of conception that only someone who had never been exposed to anyone outside the Evangelical “sphere” would have.  This becomes even more complicated when they try to imagine a non-Evangelical character who, coincidentally, happens to already mesh well with Evangelical values. 

    Granted, there are ways to make a character mesh with Evangelical values while not actually being an Evangelical (at first) that do not seem so implausible and contrived, but the authors of these books rarely seem to think things through enough to come up with one in the first place.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    As far as I can tell, it isn’t asking questions that makes you look ignorant, it’s confidently making statements that other people know are wrong.

    I remember an anthropology class I had back in college.  Wonderful teacher, elderly gentleman with a great grey beard who wore an old suit to class.  Encouraged students who felt the subject was boring to go to sleep or spend class coming up with sexual fantasies about other attractive students, provided they did not disturb anyone else who was actually trying to pay attention.  First week of all of his classes was spent teaching formal logic, regardless of the classes’ actual subject.  Did a pop quiz for the first fifteen minutes of each class covering the previous day’s material.  Did a great job, I loved the guy. 

    Anyway, there were two other students in that class who stood out in my memory.  One of them was someone I recognized from high school.  The two of us had taken a 3D computer rendering class together.  His father was an influencial member of the local NRA chapter as I recall.  Reasonably knowledgable guy, he picked up on the material quickly. 

    The other was a guy who seemed to stuggle to absorb the material.  He was always asking questions about things which seemed, to me, to be obvious.  I was surprised he did not retain it.  But while I thought as such, I remained impassive through class, as I usually do.  However, the other student, the one I remembered from high school, I could hear him audibly snort with derision every time the questioning student asked his questions. 

    The fact was though, it seemed like many other students in the class did not necessarily get the information as easily as I did, if the fifteen minute quiz every morning was anything to go by.  Yet no one else seemed to ask questions with the frequency this kid did.  After one class, the guy from high school made some quip to me on his way about about the dumb student who kept asking those dumb questions.  I managed to hold in my retort snapping back at him that the kid was no less intelligent than most of the class, but at least he had the guts to face that and fix it. 

    “The ancient oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing.”

    – Socrates

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    As far as I can tell, it isn’t asking questions that makes you look ignorant, it’s confidently making statements that other people know are wrong.

    I remember an anthropology class I had back in college.  Wonderful teacher, elderly gentleman with a great grey beard who wore an old suit to class.  Encouraged students who felt the subject was boring to go to sleep or spend class coming up with sexual fantasies about other attractive students, provided they did not disturb anyone else who was actually trying to pay attention.  First week of all of his classes was spent teaching formal logic, regardless of the classes’ actual subject.  Did a pop quiz for the first fifteen minutes of each class covering the previous day’s material.  Did a great job, I loved the guy. 

    Anyway, there were two other students in that class who stood out in my memory.  One of them was someone I recognized from high school.  The two of us had taken a 3D computer rendering class together.  His father was an influencial member of the local NRA chapter as I recall.  Reasonably knowledgable guy, he picked up on the material quickly. 

    The other was a guy who seemed to stuggle to absorb the material.  He was always asking questions about things which seemed, to me, to be obvious.  I was surprised he did not retain it.  But while I thought as such, I remained impassive through class, as I usually do.  However, the other student, the one I remembered from high school, I could hear him audibly snort with derision every time the questioning student asked his questions. 

    The fact was though, it seemed like many other students in the class did not necessarily get the information as easily as I did, if the fifteen minute quiz every morning was anything to go by.  Yet no one else seemed to ask questions with the frequency this kid did.  After one class, the guy from high school made some quip to me on his way about about the dumb student who kept asking those dumb questions.  I managed to hold in my retort snapping back at him that the kid was no less intelligent than most of the class, but at least he had the guts to face that and fix it. 

    “The ancient oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing.”

    – Socrates

  • Rob Brown

    You’re absolutely right, and usually I’m better about asking questions.  For some reason, though, I didn’t do it this time; I thought that I’d eventually figure it out the more people talked about it.

     

  • Rob Brown

    You’re absolutely right, and usually I’m better about asking questions.  For some reason, though, I didn’t do it this time; I thought that I’d eventually figure it out the more people talked about it.

     

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    True enough <_< though tbh I really don't think fiction influences behavior among the vast, vast, vast majority of people anyway.  That said, screwing like rabbits is generally more acceptable than shooting people in the face b

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    True enough <_< though tbh I really don't think fiction influences behavior among the vast, vast, vast majority of people anyway.  That said, screwing like rabbits is generally more acceptable than shooting people in the face b

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Indeed.  I think asking questions demonstrates actually that one is curious – and curiosity leads one to knowledge, and intellectual stimulation from learning sparks the growth of intellect.

    Ignorance is only an indication of stupidity when someone is ignorant of a subject, that subject is somehow relevant to them… and they still don’t care to change it.  (*cough* George W. Bush *cough*)

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ JJohnson

    Indeed.  I think asking questions demonstrates actually that one is curious – and curiosity leads one to knowledge, and intellectual stimulation from learning sparks the growth of intellect.

    Ignorance is only an indication of stupidity when someone is ignorant of a subject, that subject is somehow relevant to them… and they still don’t care to change it.  (*cough* George W. Bush *cough*)

    *edit* to be clear there’s a difference between “Doesn’t care to change it” and “Doesn’t want to ask a question for fear of looking stupid” – being nervous for any reason is not an indication of being stupid… the desire to understand the situation is still there, it’s just overweighed by inhibition.

    That’s why I point to George W. Bush as an excellent example – the guy has dozens of blind spots in foreign policy alone, plenty of people who could explain the situation to him, and the justification that he was president (and thus has to lead the country even though he individually can’t be expected to know everything) – and still didn’t seem to care to try to understand things.

  • Anonymous

    When I was a kid, I was so obnoxious that I’d ask questions I knew the answer to, just so I could look smarter.  Looking back, I’m amazed that anyone managed to put up with me.

  • Anonymous

    When I was a kid, I was so obnoxious that I’d ask questions I knew the answer to, just so I could look smarter.  Looking back, I’m amazed that anyone managed to put up with me.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Another thing that is true is that there’s a balance between the time an instructor or professor can devote to answering one person’s questions and the need to educate an entire class, and some fraction of the time I’d end up in class with this one keener who always asked hard questions that would force the prof to spend a good five minutes explaining $SIDETRACK.

    And then like as not, another question following on from that, and $SIDETRACK_ROUND_TWO.

    It’s apparently gotten bad enough univerisity-wide, this phenomenon, that the student paper has had a couple short letters-to-the-editor asking people who do this to cut down on the question-asking time so the entire class doesn’t end up hating them with the fires of a thousand suns.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Another thing that is true is that there’s a balance between the time an instructor or professor can devote to answering one person’s questions and the need to educate an entire class, and some fraction of the time I’d end up in class with this one keener who always asked hard questions that would force the prof to spend a good five minutes explaining $SIDETRACK.

    And then like as not, another question following on from that, and $SIDETRACK_ROUND_TWO.

    It’s apparently gotten bad enough univerisity-wide, this phenomenon, that the student paper has had a couple short letters-to-the-editor asking people who do this to cut down on the question-asking time so the entire class doesn’t end up hating them with the fires of a thousand suns.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Continuing the thread about questions in class, my default mode since youth was, whenever the teacher said, “Who can tell me [x]?” where x was something we were expected to know, I would immediately raise my hand.  After all, I knew the answer and the question had been asked.  It was one of my earlier college classes when I stopped doing this.  The teacher would ask the question, I would raise my hand, and he would scan the class and pick someone other than me.  This did not disturb me, but one time I was the only one raising my hand and he still called on someone else.  She, obviously uncomfortable with the attention, pointed at me and said, “I think he knows the answer.”  

    The teacher replied, “Yeah, but I know he knows the answer.”  

    That is when it dawned on me that the teacher’s goal in asking those questions was to get students to pay attention and be ready.  Asking the same person over and over again undermined that.  And if he already knew that I knew my stuff, I realized that it might seem to other students like I was showing off, when I was just trying to follow instructions.  I resolved then to stop raising my hand for every question a teacher asked, give someone else a chance to show their stuff, and only raise it when no one else seemed to know.

    It’s apparently gotten bad enough univerisity-wide, this phenomenon, that the student paper has had a couple short letters-to-the-editor asking people who do this to cut down on the question-asking time so the entire class doesn’t end up hating them with the fires of a thousand suns.

    In the aforementioned anthropology class, I had a rule during the pop quiz segments.  The teacher would ask a question and call on someone at random.  I would keep my hands down, until three people had been asked and not been able to provide a correct answer.  After the third person was called upon, I would raise my hand, at which point the teacher would immediately call on me (where he had been reluctant to do so before) and I would give the answer.  I did this so that others had a chance to answer, but I wanted to keep the class from getting bogged down if no one did.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Continuing the thread about questions in class, my default mode since youth was, whenever the teacher said, “Who can tell me [x]?” where x was something we were expected to know, I would immediately raise my hand.  After all, I knew the answer and the question had been asked.  It was one of my earlier college classes when I stopped doing this.  The teacher would ask the question, I would raise my hand, and he would scan the class and pick someone other than me.  This did not disturb me, but one time I was the only one raising my hand and he still called on someone else.  She, obviously uncomfortable with the attention, pointed at me and said, “I think he knows the answer.”  

    The teacher replied, “Yeah, but I know he knows the answer.”  

    That is when it dawned on me that the teacher’s goal in asking those questions was to get students to pay attention and be ready.  Asking the same person over and over again undermined that.  And if he already knew that I knew my stuff, I realized that it might seem to other students like I was showing off, when I was just trying to follow instructions.  I resolved then to stop raising my hand for every question a teacher asked, give someone else a chance to show their stuff, and only raise it when no one else seemed to know.

    It’s apparently gotten bad enough univerisity-wide, this phenomenon, that the student paper has had a couple short letters-to-the-editor asking people who do this to cut down on the question-asking time so the entire class doesn’t end up hating them with the fires of a thousand suns.

    In the aforementioned anthropology class, I had a rule during the pop quiz segments.  The teacher would ask a question and call on someone at random.  I would keep my hands down, until three people had been asked and not been able to provide a correct answer.  After the third person was called upon, I would raise my hand, at which point the teacher would immediately call on me (where he had been reluctant to do so before) and I would give the answer.  I did this so that others had a chance to answer, but I wanted to keep the class from getting bogged down if no one did.  

  • Anonymous

    By high school I had gotten lazy and pretty much stopped paying attention in class, because I knew I could get away with it and still earn straight A’s.  The only disruptions in my 50-minutes-per-class of daydreaming and doodling occurred when the teacher would randomly pick me to answer a question.  For those moments, I developed a strategy: “Um … I dunno.”  It was applicable to any question (you never even needed to hear the question!), it had no real effect on your grade, and the teacher would almost always move on to another student instead of forcing me to answer properly.

    I abandoned this strategy after the first week of geometry class.  We were doing problems out of the textbook, the teacher said “Vermic, answer problem 8-a,” and I reflexively came back with “I don’t know,” brimming with slacker confidence.  The entire class giggled.  I looked down at the book, and discovered that I had just claimed that I did not know how to identify a circle.

  • Anonymous

    By high school I had gotten lazy and pretty much stopped paying attention in class, because I knew I could get away with it and still earn straight A’s.  The only disruptions in my 50-minutes-per-class of daydreaming and doodling occurred when the teacher would randomly pick me to answer a question.  For those moments, I developed a strategy: “Um … I dunno.”  It was applicable to any question (you never even needed to hear the question!), it had no real effect on your grade, and the teacher would almost always move on to another student instead of forcing me to answer properly.

    I abandoned this strategy after the first week of geometry class.  We were doing problems out of the textbook, the teacher said “Vermic, answer problem 8-a,” and I reflexively came back with “I don’t know,” brimming with slacker confidence.  The entire class giggled.  I looked down at the book, to find that I’d effectively admitted to being unable to identify a circle.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Math was always difficult for me, which is odd that I tended to take a lot of it because so much of what I wanted to study depended on it.  High school algebra was a real pain though.  I remember sitting at a “pod” of desks with two young women.  They would talk in class, eat their food, and not pay attention.  In contrast, I would remain focused, take fastidious notes, and do all the homework as best I was able.  

    When tests came back graded, I would always end up with a “C” grade on mine, if I was lucky.  The girls that I sat beside would complain because their tests were graded with “A” instead of “A+”.  

    This pattern would repeat throughout my education.  

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Math was always difficult for me, which is odd that I tended to take a lot of it because so much of what I wanted to study depended on it.  High school algebra was a real pain though.  I remember sitting at a “pod” of desks with two young women.  They would talk in class, eat their food, and not pay attention.  In contrast, I would remain focused, take fastidious notes, and do all the homework as best I was able.  

    When tests came back graded, I would always end up with a “C” grade on mine, if I was lucky.  The girls that I sat beside would complain because their tests were graded with “A” instead of “A+”.  

    This pattern would repeat throughout my education.  

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    some fraction of the time I’d end up in class with this one keener who always asked hard questions that would force the prof to spend a good five minutes explaining $SIDETRACK.

    And there’s the opposite situation – I had an upper-level computer science class with one student who’d always ask mind-boggling easy questions. The rest of the class stared in disbelief that anyone could’ve got that far into a CS degree without being able to work that sort of thing out on their own.

    For the first few weeks the prof would patiently answer, until finally he realized that this was derailing the class for everyone else and asked that student to please make use of office hours or get some tutoring.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    some fraction of the time I’d end up in class with this one keener who always asked hard questions that would force the prof to spend a good five minutes explaining $SIDETRACK.

    And there’s the opposite situation – I had an upper-level computer science class with one student who’d always ask mind-boggling easy questions. The rest of the class stared in disbelief that anyone could’ve got that far into a CS degree without being able to work that sort of thing out on their own.

    For the first few weeks the prof would patiently answer, until finally he realized that this was derailing the class for everyone else and asked that student to please make use of office hours or get some tutoring.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I hate to be the bearer of possibly bad news, but the were the women fairly attractive? It’s not the first or the last time grades have been slanted on that basis.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I hate to be the bearer of possibly bad news, but the were the women fairly attractive? It’s not the first or the last time grades have been slanted on that basis.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

    Geoff Johns’ treatment of Lois Lane pisses me off greatly. One of the things I love about the DCAU, and about Mark Waid and Greg Rucka’s take on the characters is that they understand exactly why Lois and Clark love each other.

    One of the things that pissed me off royally in the new AC was the scene where Clark comes to Lois’ apartment, to find that her boyfriend* is there. After Clark has left, the boyfriend suggest that maybe Clark is pining for Lois, and she dismisses the idea out of hand.

    In what possible world would Lois Lane miss Clark’s blatantly obvious feelings for her? Reading people was one of the traits that made her the DCU’s GIRAT in a completely non-ironic sense.

    *This being the boyfriend that seemingly exists solely to make Lois look shallow and for the Nice Guys (TM) in the audience to get riled up over.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

    Geoff Johns’ treatment of Lois Lane pisses me off greatly. One of the things I love about the DCAU, and about Mark Waid and Greg Rucka’s take on the characters is that they understand exactly why Lois and Clark love each other.

    One of the things that pissed me off royally in the new AC was the scene where Clark comes to Lois’ apartment, to find that her boyfriend* is there. After Clark has left, the boyfriend suggest that maybe Clark is pining for Lois, and she dismisses the idea out of hand.

    In what possible world would Lois Lane miss Clark’s blatantly obvious feelings for her? Reading people was one of the traits that made her the DCU’s GIRAT in a completely non-ironic sense.

    *This being the boyfriend that seemingly exists solely to make Lois look shallow and for the Nice Guys (TM) in the audience to get riled up over.

  • Kukulkan

    Since we’re kind of discussing DC’s recent relaunch, I thought I’d mention that I just completed a survey DC had commissioned on it.

    After finishing it I got this message:

    Thank you for sharing your opinions!

    Thanks a lot. Unfortunately, you do not qualify for this particular survey.  

    PLEASE NOTE:   Only one submission per person is accepted.

    Well, thanks for telling me that after I spent all that time answering your questions.

    And here was me thinking they were actually interested in the opinions of those buying their comics. Guess I should just take the hint and accept that I’m not their preferred customer.

    I don’t know what the criteria were for deciding who did and didn’t qualify for the survey, but surely the best place to put the questions that decided that would have been at the beginning of the survey. That way people who didn’t qualify could have been knocked out after answering only one or two questions rather than all of them.

    I like the idea that they are doing a survey, but they could have designed it better.
     

  • Kukulkan

    Since we’re kind of discussing DC’s recent relaunch, I thought I’d mention that I just completed a survey DC had commissioned on it.

    After finishing it I got this message:

    Thank you for sharing your opinions!

    Thanks a lot. Unfortunately, you do not qualify for this particular survey.  

    PLEASE NOTE:   Only one submission per person is accepted.

    Well, thanks for telling me that after I spent all that time answering your questions.

    And here was me thinking they were actually interested in the opinions of those buying their comics. Guess I should just take the hint and accept that I’m not their preferred customer.

    I don’t know what the criteria were for deciding who did and didn’t qualify for the survey, but surely the best place to put the questions that decided that would have been at the beginning of the survey. That way people who didn’t qualify could have been knocked out after answering only one or two questions rather than all of them.

    I like the idea that they are doing a survey, but they could have designed it better.
     

  • hapax

    I don’t know what the criteria were for deciding who did and didn’t
    qualify for the survey, but surely the best place to put the questions
    that decided that would have been at the beginning of the survey.

    Apparently they include the name of a “dummy” comic (NERAK or something like that) and you have to respond exactly correctly to that particular question to prove that you’re not a spambot or a hater or something.

    Or so say the people who claim to have cracked the Sooper Sekkrit Survey code.  Since at this point I wouldn’t pick up a DC comic even with titanium tongs, I haven’t tried to verify this meownself.

  • hapax

    I don’t know what the criteria were for deciding who did and didn’t
    qualify for the survey, but surely the best place to put the questions
    that decided that would have been at the beginning of the survey.

    Apparently they include the name of a “dummy” comic (NERAK or something like that) and you have to respond exactly correctly to that particular question to prove that you’re not a spambot or a hater or something.

    Or so say the people who claim to have cracked the Sooper Sekkrit Survey code.  Since at this point I wouldn’t pick up a DC comic even with titanium tongs, I haven’t tried to verify this meownself.

  • P J Evans

     Izzy, my sort-of-local bookstore now has zero copies of your book on the shelf. *g*

  • P J Evans

     Izzy, my sort-of-local bookstore now has zero copies of your book on the shelf. *g*

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

    I will give DC this much: a reboot is better than what Marvel has done with Spider-Man. I am aware of exactly how faint this praise is.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

    I will give DC this much: a reboot is better than what Marvel has done with Spider-Man. I am aware of exactly how faint this praise is.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Apparently they include the name of a “dummy” comic (NERAK or something like that)

    I ticked that one as “never heard of it” (along with quite a lot of others) and still got the “do not qualify” message. It’s either because I didn’t tick any “bought it” or “read it” columns, only the “would like to buy it”, or because I ticked “female” and “46 years old”.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Apparently they include the name of a “dummy” comic (NERAK or something like that)

    I ticked that one as “never heard of it” (along with quite a lot of others) and still got the “do not qualify” message. It’s either because I didn’t tick any “bought it” or “read it” columns, only the “would like to buy it”, or because I ticked “female” and “46 years old”.

    … A similar pattern of answers (the “never heard of it” list is the same, the distribution of “read it/would like to” is a bit different) gets a “Thank you for participating in our survey today! Those are all the questions we have for you at this time.” if I claim to be a 27 year old man.

    … eta again, nope, same response – I missed a “next” button.

  • P J Evans

     I like asking dumb questions, so that the instructor will actually give the explanation that half the class wants but won’t ask for; I may know the answer already, but it’s good to get the rest on board.

  • P J Evans

     I like asking dumb questions, so that the instructor will actually give the explanation that half the class wants but won’t ask for; I may know the answer already, but it’s good to get the rest on board.

  • Kukulkan

    hapax wrote:

    Apparently they include the name of a “dummy” comic (NERAK or something like that) and you have to respond exactly correctly to that particular question to prove that you’re not a spambot or a hater or something.

    That’s not unreasonable. Like Jamoche I marked that one as “Never Heard of it” — since, well, I’d never heard of it. I got well beyond that page.

    What irked me was that I got the “you do not qualify” after a couple of essay-type questions in which they just asked you to comment on the relaunch and your local comic shop and I had actually put some time, thought and effort into the answers.

    If it all just been multiple choice, I wouldn’t have minded. My irritation is pretty much proportional to the amount of effort I had put in.
     

  • Kukulkan

    hapax wrote:

    Apparently they include the name of a “dummy” comic (NERAK or something like that) and you have to respond exactly correctly to that particular question to prove that you’re not a spambot or a hater or something.

    That’s not unreasonable. Like Jamoche I marked that one as “Never Heard of it” — since, well, I’d never heard of it. I got well beyond that page.

    What irked me was that I got the “you do not qualify” after a couple of essay-type questions in which they just asked you to comment on the relaunch and your local comic shop and I had actually put some time, thought and effort into the answers.

    If it all just been multiple choice, I wouldn’t have minded. My irritation is pretty much proportional to the amount of effort I had put in.
     

  • http://inquisitiveravn.livejournal.com/ Inquisitive Raven

    Oh gods, stupid questions in upper level CompSci classes. I remember one class, operating systems I think. At any rate, the professor spent a lot of time drawing blocks to represent chunks of memory and filling them with numbers… in hexadecimal. I think I figured out what he was doing by the end of the first class. At some point, one (male) student asked if zie was calculating zir addresses wrong. After all, the data was in ASCII wasn’t it.  I didn’t actually facepalm, but the urge was definitely there. I think I was the one who pointed out that, no the data was in hex and the professor’s address calculations worked for that. From there on, or at least until I dropped the class because I’d gotten into the one I wanted to take, the professor subscripted every hex number zie wrote with a 16.

    I’d just like to know how someone can make it to graduate computer science classes without being able to recognize when someone is writing numbers in hex. For those of you who aren’t CompSci types, hexadecimal or base sixteen numbers use the letters a-f to represent the numbers 10-15. Sixteen is written 10. The two big clues that the professor is using hexadecimal and not ASCII are a) one byte of memory holds two hexadecimal digits, but only one ASCII character, and b) the professor never uses the letters h-z as part of his data.

  • http://inquisitiveravn.livejournal.com/ Inquisitive Raven

    Oh gods, stupid questions in upper level CompSci classes. I remember one class, operating systems I think. At any rate, the professor spent a lot of time drawing blocks to represent chunks of memory and filling them with numbers… in hexadecimal. I think I figured out what he was doing by the end of the first class. At some point, one (male) student asked if zie was calculating zir addresses wrong. After all, the data was in ASCII wasn’t it.  I didn’t actually facepalm, but the urge was definitely there. I think I was the one who pointed out that, no the data was in hex and the professor’s address calculations worked for that. From there on, or at least until I dropped the class because I’d gotten into the one I wanted to take, the professor subscripted every hex number zie wrote with a 16.

    I’d just like to know how someone can make it to graduate computer science classes without being able to recognize when someone is writing numbers in hex. For those of you who aren’t CompSci types, hexadecimal or base sixteen numbers use the letters a-f to represent the numbers 10-15. Sixteen is written 10. The two big clues that the professor is using hexadecimal and not ASCII are a) one byte of memory holds two hexadecimal digits, but only one ASCII character, and b) the professor never uses the letters h-z as part of his data.

  • P J Evans

     I’ve met people who were so used to working in octal (on DEC machines) that they had trouble with their checkbooks if there were no 8s or 9s in the visible numbers. *g*

  • P J Evans

     I’ve met people who were so used to working in octal (on DEC machines) that they had trouble with their checkbooks if there were no 8s or 9s in the visible numbers. *g*

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    You remind me of this recent xkcd strip.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    You remind me of this recent xkcd strip.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    xkcd is oddly topical these days. :P

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    xkcd is oddly topical these days. :P

  • http://scyllacat.livejournal.com Scylla Kat

    Oh, well. There go my plans to bring up Tribulation Force at the next Literary Logistics book night. I guess we’re just have to go back to discussing the train schedules in Bram Stocker’s Dracula. Again.

    Bummer.

    I just realized this is days ago, and I’m so far behind, I haven’t read Left Behind!

    But if you’re ok with trains, you should  try “Five Red Herrings,” which involves questions like if you have 10 miles to go, do you have a bicycle or a car, and can you catch the train on time, or would it be easier to just go up and catch it at the next stop?  

  • http://scyllacat.livejournal.com Scylla Kat

    Oh, well. There go my plans to bring up Tribulation Force at the next Literary Logistics book night. I guess we’re just have to go back to discussing the train schedules in Bram Stocker’s Dracula. Again.

    Bummer.

    I just realized this is days ago, and I’m so far behind, I haven’t read Left Behind!

    But if you’re ok with trains, you should  try “Five Red Herrings,” which involves questions like if you have 10 miles to go, do you have a bicycle or a car, and can you catch the train on time, or would it be easier to just go up and catch it at the next stop?