My right to be offended by your existence trumps your right to exist

Rod Dreher tweets: “Oreo embraces gay pride? Since when do we expect supermarket cookies to take political stances?”

Because, you see, gay people aren’t really people — they’re political issues.

Dreher would never think to criticize green-stuf Oreos for St. Patrick’s Day as “a political stance,” but rainbow stuf Oreos for Pride Month are somehow essentially political. Celebrating Irishness with your Irish customers is cheerful fun and good business. Celebrating pride with your LGBT customers is a “political stance.”

What does that even mean? To take a political stand is to stand against something, but what, exactly, is the opposing position of the alleged “political stance” of the rainbow Oreo? Does Dreher think Nabisco ought to have produced an Oreo that “embraces gay shame” instead?

No, no, no, he would protest — he simply wants his Oreos neutral, to take no “political stance” in the controversy between pride and shame. WTF?

Again, try to imagine anyone saying such a thing about St. Patrick’s Day, or about your local Polish festival.

Every year, your local newspaper runs a photo of the mayor, grinning broadly over a plate of kielbasa served by a grandmother at the tent from Our Lady of Czestochowa. The mayor, of course, is a politician and he has political reasons for celebrating Polish heritage at the festival. He wants the Polish community’s votes in the next election.

But while the mayor’s joining in the celebration is in some ways political, that doesn’t mean that his presence at the festival constitutes his taking a particular “political stance.” To suggest that his attendance there amounts to “taking a political stance” would be weird and kind of creepy.

What would you think if someone argued that the mayor should have stayed “neutral” — keeping apart from the political fray of polkas and pirogies?

Such “neutrality” wouldn’t seem neutral at all. It would seem anti-Polish. It would lead you to suspect that the person calling for this neutrality on the “political stance” of the Polish festival harbored some deep-seated hatred toward Polish people.

The suggestion that celebrating Polish-ness is somehow a “political stance” implies that the very existence of Polish-ness is an unsettled matter of political controversy. It implies that one is not yet convinced that Polish people have a legitimate place in society, or even a legitimate right to exist.

I don’t think Rod Dreher wanted to suggest all of that in his tweet about rainbow Oreos, but there’s no other way to read what he’s saying there. To “embrace gay pride” is to “take a political stance,” he writes, meaning that LGBT people are existentially controversial. That their legitimacy is legitimately disputed. That their right to participate in society is an unsettled question.

“Embracing gay pride” is to “take a political stance” because it’s bound to unsettle those who deny, dispute or question gay people’s right to be here. A rainbow-colored Oreo cookie is a “political stance” because it’s bound to offend those who find the very existence of their LGBT fellow citizens offensive.

The cookie endorses no candidate, advocates no piece of pending legislation, favors no political party. But it reminds others that LGBT people exist , and that is perceived as a horrific insult by those who would prefer they didn’t.

That preference, Dreher is saying, is their right. Those who embrace gay shame have a right not to be confronted by such offensive reminders of that which they would prefer wasn’t so. And that right, Dreher is saying, must be presumed to be valid, legitimate and undisputed in a way that LGBT people’s right to participate in society cannot be.

It boils down to something like “My right to be offended by your existence trumps your right to exist.” That’s a pretty dark and creepy place to wind up at in response to such a fabulously festive cookie.

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  • http://www.crochetgeek.net/ Jake

    Of course, 150 years ago, celebrating St. Patrick’s Day or going to the Polish festival would have been a political statement, and being anti-Irish was regarded as a perfectly reasonable way for an American to be. These days I suppose we still have people who will try to tease an antagonistic statement out of celebrating, say, African-American or Latin-American heritage. The idea that we can celebrate gay people is just another point along the spectrum of othering, and I can hope that soon enough the idea that recognizing that gay people (or African-Americans, or Latinos, or whoever else’s culture we’re intolerant of) can celebrate themselves ceases to be an incendiary issue.

    FWIW, the ice seems to be cracking remarkably quickly on gay rights. Some disenfranchised ethnic and racial groups have been slowly working for mainstream acceptance of their identity over the course of at least a century in America, but it looks like the idea that gay people can be and by default are participants in the American social fabric is taking hold in less than a generation.

  • Tonio

    I hope so. In our house, we”ve explicitly told our children that there’s nothing wrong with being different.

    What would a gay shame Oreo look like? Perhaps it would resemble the homophobes’ hot dogs from SNL.

  • http://dumas1.livejournal.com/ Winter

     

    What would a gay shame Oreo look like? Perhaps it would resemble the homophobes’ hot dogs from SNL.

    Exactly the same, but they spontaneously combust if someone else sees you eating them.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     

    FWIW, the ice seems to be cracking remarkably quickly on gay rights.[…] the idea that gay people can be
    and by default are participants in the American social fabric is taking
    hold in less than a generation.

    Well, it started gaining momentum more than a generation ago, but I agree that it’s remarkably fast.

    It really helps that we are difficult to exclude by sight. Our devious strategy of being born into and raised within otherwise straight families and communities, and often within straight identities has been helpful that way: rejecting strangers is a lot easier than rejecting friends and family.

    Or course, it has taken a heartrending toll on many of us as individuals.

  • TheDarkArtist

    All I know is that now I want to eat a delicious box of those cookies and have gay sex!

    Damn you, homosexual agendaaaaaaaaaa!!!

  • Tonio

    If you believe people like Dreher, men
    will turn gay just by downing a few of the rainbow Oreos. What
    rubbish. I’m eating a couple now and…wait a minute, a
    guy just walked by and I caught myself looking at his rear end! Hey,
    now my wrists are getting limp! What’s happening to me? Why do I have
    this sudden urge to move into a tastefully decorated apartment in Dupont
    Circle? I’ll turn on ESPN. I need some
    testosterone-laden, bone-crunching sports action to put me back on the
    straight and narrow. Oh no, it’s Christopher Lowell on the Discovery
    Channel, and he’s starting to sound normal! You did this to me, Nabisco! You and Fred Clark and your gay propaganda! You’re part of the
    vast left-wing gay conspiracy to turn all decent family men into
    prancing, mincing queens! I can feel my heterosexuality slipping away even as I type this! Quick, someone get Pastor Sean Harris, so he can slap the gay away before it’s too late…!!

  • Tricksterson

    I just don’t see how anyone could fit their mouth around one of those things.

  • http://twitter.com/EyeEdinburgh EdinburghEye

    …practice?

    *avoids making dirty joke*

  • http://musings.northerngrove.com/ JarredH

    My usual response to statements like the one Tricksterson made:

    Amateur.  ;)

  • fraser

    This reminds me of Michael Gerson’s off-hand comment that Obama’s position on illegal immigrants was “a cultural battle.” Not, say, a decision that affects the lives of thousands of people.

  • Eamon Knight

    When the Orange Men parade through Catholic areas of Belfast, or the KKK through black neighbourhoods, they aren’t just celebrating the existence of Protestants or whites, they’re making an explicitly political statement of power and intimidation. Dreher is trying to cast himself in the role of those Catholics or blacks — the underdog being threatened by the hegemonic power.

    Doesn’t really work, does it?

  • Vermic

    What would a gay shame Oreo look like?

     Exactly like a gay-pride Oreo, but you’re not allowed to open the box.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Exactly like a gay-pride Oreo, but you’re not allowed to open the box.

    ^open^leave

  • Tonio

     I can’t believe I’m going to go there…With a gay shame Oreo, one saves the filling for last while eating in secret, while eating only the wafers in public and vociferously condemning the filling-eaters as disgusting perverts.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    …who do nothing and care for nothing except eating the creme filling out of (ahem) Oreos. Eventually one expands that mythology to include the idea that filling-eaters loathe the very idea of chocolate wafers, much as one has oneself come to loathe one’s own chocolate-wafer-eating public existence.

    Meanwhile, it turns out that everyone else is just eating Oreos.

  • Panda Rosa

    Simple: it would have no cream filling at all, just the two outside chocolate cookies. Because everyone knows that the creamy vanilla filling is the best part!
    Oh dear, now I’ve gone and made a case for Oreos being a gay cookie. Especially in how you eat them.

  • Nequam

    Because everyone knows that the creamy vanilla filling is the best part!

    I’ll be honest– I think I could eat the wafers just by themselves. The filling is just a bonus. So if anyone wants to make the six-layer monstrosity they can just send the extra wafers my way. (Good for pie and tart crusts, too!)

  • WingedBeast

    Jake stole my initial response.

    When hate, or at least acceptance thereof, becomes normative enough, acceptance becomes a political statement.   That statement, however, is “This is America.”

    It has long since ceased to amaze me and is now just a casual expectation that those who wave the flag the hardest, and make the most hay about how certain candidates don’t wave that flag as hard as they could, just don’t understand the basic notion of America.  We’re the place where you can be different and still one of us.

    You have the right to live here, build yourself up however you choose*, own your own fate and roll your own dice, and, however you build yourself up, however strange you look to the rest of us, however odd or even offensive ** that may be to us, you’re still one of us.

    So, congratulations to Oreo for making the same political statement politicians are, by political necessity, required to make at any Cinqo De Mayo, St. Patrick’s Day, Oktoberfest, Black History Month, etc.  “You aren’t necessarily like the rest of us.  You are different with your own unique experience.  But, you are one of us to be celebrated.”

    * So long as you’re not doing any actual injury to other people.***

    ** Offense does not constitute injury.

    *** Being forced to notice that somebody, who you would prefer not to exist, does exist does not constitute an injury.

  • tiredofit

    Especially since St. Patrick’s Day is not an Irish holiday, but an Irish Catholic holiday with great political implications.

  • Jessica_R

    The Professionally Offended are going after General Mills too. But again, the response is heartening, 
    http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/general-mills-employees-serves-refreshments-to-anti-marriage-equality-protesters/marriage/2012/06/28/42275

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1137545863 Ian Cunningham

    Had this tweet not existed, it would not have prompted this post, which if it had not existed, I would never know about rainbow Oreos, which I must now purchase and consume at my earliest opportunity. Maybe Rod Dreher is a shill for Big Cookie?

  • Nequam

    Had this tweet not existed, it would not have prompted this post, which if it had not existed, I would never know about rainbow Oreos, which I must now purchase and consume at my earliest opportunity.

    Unfortunately, I think they only made the six-layer mockup for the photo (which these days may mean that even that one cookie doesn’t exist thanks to the marvels of Photoshop).

    Nothing stopping you from getting some food dye and boding up your own, though! (Me, I’d rather look at that Oreo than eat it. That is waaaaaay too high a filling/wafer ratio.)

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Yes, the actual ad has the caption “Made with creme colors that do not exist”. Google turns up some homemade ones, of course.

    Also – love this bit of snark: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m68ui6rOFG1qzdimx.jpg – the standard Oreo gets the caption “they didn’t like the blacks and whites touching either”.

  • Tonio

    Me, I’d rather look at that Oreo than eat it.

    Me too, but only because food dyes can be unhealthy.

  • Münchner Kindl

    Me too, but only because food dyes can be unhealthy.

    There are a lot of natural food dyes – carotene that’s made from carrots makes cheddar orange; red beet juice turns red; etc. But since American consumers want bright colours, they only get unnatural dyes. (Haribo has two different productions of gummi bears: all natural colours for German consumers who want natural; all synthetic colours for USians who want bright colours).

    I, too, wondered how you could eat that big a stack; and whether the colouring is taste-neutral, or the different layers are themed (red for strawberry taste, green for mint, yellow for lemon etc.)

    But apparently it doesn’t exist for real?

  • Tonio

     I have a relative who has reactions to FD&C colors – abdominal cramps and mood changes. Most of the things with these dyes are marketed to children, although there are exceptions. Pickles? Really?

  • The_L1985

    I don’t want to sound like an ad, but I’m a fan of Stonybrook yogurt–especially the kids’ yogurt–for the specific reason that they use bright-but-pleasant natural dyes (it actually says “Beet Juice” instead of the “Natural Colors” cop-out) instead of weird neon colors and gag-worthy artificial flavorings like every other kids’ yogurt.

  • Tonio

     We are a Stonybrook household, especially the yogurt sticks which are great when frozen.

  • The_L1985

     I’m goign to have to do that.

  • Münchner Kindl

    I have a relative who has reactions to FD&C colors – abdominal cramps and mood changes. Most of the things with these dyes are marketed to children, although there are exceptions.

    If you had proper licensing laws and a non-gutted FDA, your relative could look at the labels for what over here is known as E-numbers and avoid those commonly known as problematic / artifical.

    Here’s the list of colours used:
     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-numbers#E100.E2.80.93E199_.28colours.29

    Pickles? Really?

    Who said anything about pickles?? I didn’t. I talked about red beet, a root that contains a red colouring that’s taste-neutral but difficult to get from your hands when you handle it, or your clothes if you stain them.

    Sadly, the colours (and other ingredients) aren’t organized by origin, so you have to look at each entry to figure out whether it comes from plants or is an azo- (artifical) colouring.

  • Tonio

    Thanks for the listing.  I meant that it’s simply ridiculous that manufacturers would use artificial dyes in pickles. Of course, at one time, pistachio companies assumed that few people would by them if the shells weren’t stained red.

  • Münchner Kindl

    I meant that it’s simply ridiculous that manufacturers would use artificial dyes in pickles.

    Oh, I misunderstood you! Sorry.

    My friend got headaches after pickles and realized that most companies replace part of their sugar with saccarin / aspartame, to which he’s apparently sensitive. So now he looks very carefully at the labels to be sure it’s only sugar in there. (Amazing how much sugar is in some ready-made food: ketchup has up to a third sugar! Because kids like it sweet).

    Before the founding of the FDA and similiar agencies, in the mid- and late 19th century, really poisionous stuff was used for colour: lead, arsenic etc.

  • The_L1985

    I’ve stopped buying pre-packaged bread in place of the fresh stuff from the bakery department (or just the diet flatbreads) because of the sweetener.  Why does bread need so much corn syrup?  IT’S BREAD.

    And the artificial colors used NOW can kill you if they accidentally put too much in.  The current trend toward brighter and brighter colors in children’s food bothers the hell out of me.

  • PJ Evans

    at one time, pistachio companies assumed that few people would by them if the shells weren’t stained red

    I’ve heard that they were dyed to hide dinged or otherwise flawed shells. That changed when pistachios started being grown in quantity in the US. (They like deserty areas best.)

  • http://loosviews.livejournal.com BringTheNoise

     American labels do have to list the dyes they use. They have different names, but they are still listed. I just double-checked with a packet of lovely imported Kool-Aid.

  • The_L1985

    Damn, and all this time my idea of What A Gummy Bear Should Be has been dictated by the wrong version of Gold-Bears.

    Et tu, Haribo?

  • Münchner Kindl

    This is one of the typical ads for Haribo Gold bears in Germany http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl9xTH2Bwe4 with famous (in Germany) Tommy Gottschalk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Gottschalk doing the ad.

    If you look at the dancing bears at the end, you will note that their colours are muted and there’s no blue (can’t be made naturally – too rare in nature), purple or other difficult colours.

    The change is only a few decades old, though, when German consumers got increasingly aware of additives in the food being bad for you.

    If you want something real German, try “Apfelbärchen” – apple bears http://www.allsana.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p6550_Bio-Apfelbaerchen.html. Not available from Haribo, but in local organic shops, they are made with Apple pectin instead of gelatin (from animals) like Haribo, so vegetarians can eat them, too. (They melt even quicker in heat, though, come only in one colour, and taste less exciting. But far healthier).

    I also remember the second big PR campaign of Haribo, back then, when they announced that they would henceforth only use natural beeswax as seperating agent (to keep the bears from sticking together) instead of the artifical agent used before).

    Haribo does keep secret about the different markets, though, probably because people aren’t much interested and don’t often stumble across it. I only read about it in an article about the use of intelligent software for multi-national companies and how marketing (and with it logistics) must be tailored to each culture.

  • The_L1985

    Those are the Gold-Bears I remember from my childhood, too–same colors and everything.  This nonsense about blue bears in the American version must be new, then–I last ate gummis of any kind about a decade ago.

    Most American gummis are WAY too soft for my tastes.  I’ve always preferred how much firmer Haribo’s are.  I just haven’t bought much in the way of candy since I was on Atkin’s for a while as a teen.

  • Monala

     How do they know Americans want only bright colors? I would love to find more foods that are colored with natural dyes, especially the foods my daughter likes.

  • Tonio

    Our kids went through a phase when they would choose a store-bought sugar cookie with neon-pink icing over a homemade chocolate-chip cookie without tasting either first. They learned the hard way that the icing tasted like sugared spackling compound and probably resembled it chemically. So much advertising is aimed at children that it can be a struggle to nurture their tastes, culinary and otherwise.

  • Münchner Kindl

    How do they know Americans want only bright colors?

    Market research – probably both looking at what the competition in the sweet aisle of the supermarkets look likes, and by testing different types on consumers.

    Like I said, it was a throw-away paragraph in a longer article to illustrate the difficulties for international companies, so they didn’t go into any detail.

  • The_L1985

     Seconded.  I honestly would have been more than happy with the usual birghtly-colored packaging.  But then, dinner at my house, even when I was a kid, was homemade pasta, pot roasts, or salmon loaf, none of which are particularly outstanding in the color department.

  • ReverendRef

     Unfortunately, I think they only made the six-layer mockup for the photo
    (which these days may mean that even that one cookie doesn’t exist
    thanks to the marvels of Photoshop).

    I’m a big fan of the DoubleStuff Oreos (actually prefer Ding Dongs, but that’s another story).  So if I could get my hands on a SextupleStuff Oreo and a gallon of milk . . . Oh yeah.

  • http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke

    Agree with you on the filling:wafer ratio. A better methodology for gay cookies would be to have one colour in each cookie, arranged in the traditional manner. 

    And to remember indigo, dammit.

  • MadGastronomer

     Indigo is not and never has been part of the Pride colors. Pink used to be, though.

  • http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke

    But then how do you pronounce poor Mr. Roy G’s last name? BV or BPV? There needs to be a vowel there!

  • MadGastronomer

     I don’t, mostly. You know indigo is only included in that because Newton thought seven was a perfect number, right?

  • http://redwoodr.tumblr.com Redwood Rhiadra

    I’m guessing you mean “ideal” rather than “perfect,” as “perfect number” has a specific mathematical definition that Newton was certainly aware of – and 6 *is* a perfect number (the first one, in fact!)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_number

  • MadGastronomer

     Well, if I recall, he specifically preferred seven over six for alchemical or numerological reasons instead of mathematical ones. I could be wrong about that, but that’s what I remember.

  • MadGastronomer

     From the Wikipedia article on the spectrum:

    He chose seven colors out of a belief, derived from the ancient Greek sophists, that there was a connection between the colors, the musical notes, the known objects in the solar system, and the days of the week.

  • malpollyon

    Indigo is not and never has been part of the Pride colors. Pink used to be, though.

    Are you sure about that? The history I’ve always heard gives its origin in Gilbert Baker’s eight-striped flag where indigo represented harmony, it also contained a hot pink stripe representing sex. Then hot pink stripe was dropped leaving seven colours, and finally the flag was redesigned to the modern six coloured iconic form replacing indigo with blue.

  • MadGastronomer

     You’re right, I’d forgotten that iteration. I stand corrected.

  • PJ Evans

    Maybe they should put out packages of Oreos with cookies in each of the rainbow colors?

  • Baby_Raptor

    Sadly, they don’t actually exist. I was just having this conversation with my SO, and we debated how hard it would be to make one using food dye. 

  • http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke

    If you are Nabisco, you simply make huge batches of each colour stuf and load it into the squirters. Inserting your own after-market stuf is a pain in the neck no matter what colour.

    When I was very little I tried dumping a whole bunch of sugar into a half-empty bucket of Crisco to make my own stuf. Didn’t work too well. 

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    It implies that one is not yet convinced that Polish people have a legitimate place in society, or even a legitimate right to exist.

    There’s the key word: “legitimacy”! 
    That’s what gets Dreher’s panties in a bunch: legitimacy. 

    There are things that are “legitimate” to Mr. Dreher: going to church, working hard, getting married, having children with your married spouse, and raising a family. 

    There are things that are illegitimate to Mr. Dreher: lying, stealing, having sex outside of marriage, using illegal drugs, cheating on your taxes, beating your spouse, and so on.

    At the core, Dreher’s objection is that there are “gay people”, versus “people who choose to engage in an act he considers illegitimate”. 

    Dreher no doubt believes homosexual attraction is a choice; I’m sure he believes that if no one ever saw or heard of homosexual sex that no one would ever engage in it. He probably wouldn’t use these terms, but I suspect Dreher thinks of people as tabula rasta, blank slates that are written upon by those around them. Forty years ago, he would probably have encouraged the beating of children who wrote with their left hands instead of their right.  Had he been raised in a different culture with less education, I’m sure he would be arguing to perform exorcisms on epileptics. 

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    I think you’re giving Mr. Dreher too much credit to assume he’s against husbands beating their wives, or against rich people cheating on their taxes.

  • mud man

    Sorta like somebody’s indignation at the job going to somebody else trumps Voss Lighting’s existence as community of active faith. 

    I entirely support The Oreo Company’s private right to make stuff in whatever colors they choose, for whatever reasons they privately consider appropriate.

  • http://loosviews.livejournal.com BringTheNoise

    …trumps Voss Lighting’s existence as community of active faith.

    Except it’s not. It’s a lighting company – the clue’s in the name. Being a boss is somewhat different to being a dictator, as much as the Right refuses to acknowledge that.

  • Lori

     

    Sorta like somebody’s indignation at the job going to somebody else
    trumps Voss Lighting’s existence as community of active faith.    

    Do you really still not understand why these are not remotely the same thing and why Voss Lighting is in any case  not a “community of active faith”?

    I assume that you have at least graduate high school. If so and you’re logic skills are still this poor then I find myself, yet again, weeping for the state of our educational system.  (If you’re still in school I hope they get to this part of logical reasoning before you graduate. )

  • http://twitter.com/EyeEdinburgh EdinburghEye

    I love the look of that six-layer rainbow Oreo, but when I try to imagine actually EATING one, I get two reactions, neither one pleasant.

    (1) I open my mouth wide, my teeth crunch down through the cocoa-biscuit, and the pressure squidges rainbow-filling all over the floor. Yells of “HOMER! DON’T!” as self or girlfriend rush for kitchen towel to wipe up the sugar before the dog exercises his usual it’s-on-the-floor-it’s-mine privileges.

    (2) I carefully separate the two halves and manage to eat the rainbow Oreo without squidging it all over the floor. SUGAR OVERLOAD. I feel slightly sickish and about half an hour later starving hungry as blood sugar CRASH.

    So can it stay a beautiful rainbow idea that REALLY annoys fundies? Cause it is beautiful.

  • Nequam

    I love the look of that six-layer rainbow Oreo, but when I try to imagine actually EATING one, I get two reactions, neither one pleasant.

    See, I’d rather have six Oreos, one for each color of filling.

  • We Must Dissent

    I really don’t like Oreos at all, but I’m thinking about buying a box of these just for spite’s sake.

  • Georgia

    Christians Against the Tea Party on Facebook likes to quote you : )

    https://www.facebook.com/Christiansagainstea

  • Jenny Islander

    Maybe in 50 years, there will be a national Pride Day on which anybody can be non-vanilla non-hetero for the day.  Slow dance with your best bud!  Cross-dress!  (If there is still widely recognized  gendered clothing!)  Try out faux bondage gear!  (Come to that, the official Pride Day “cross-dressing” outfit may be 1940s men’s and women’s glamwear, highly stylized.)  Put on special coruscating rainbow lipstick and kiss as many people as possible!  “Pride Day–Let’s Play!” will become the new “Kiss Me–I’m Irish!” and little cartoon men in tutus and fairy wings will be as annoyingly seasonally ubiquitous as St. Patrick’s Day leprechauns.

    Meanwhile the actual non-vanilla, non-hetero folks will be having quiet gatherings at which they reflect on the struggles previous generations endured in order to gain the right to marry, have consenting sex with like-minded partners, and/or raise kids.  Or they’ll just go, “Pfff, mehh,” and stay out of certain parts of town for one night because urgh, Pride Day is tacky and annoying.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     I wish I could like this twice.

  • LMM22

    Or they’ll just go, “Pfff, mehh,” and stay out of certain parts of town for one night because urgh, Pride Day is tacky and annoying.

    Yeah. And there’s way too much disco and songs from musicals.

    On the other hand, the theatrical performances are to die for.

  • http://twitter.com/jclor jclor

    Because, you see, gay people aren’t really people — they’re political issues … Again, try to imagine anyone saying such a thing about St. Patrick’s Day, or about your local Polish festival.

    In the far-right lunatic fringe mind, remember, being gay, unlike being Irish, is a choice … just like choosing to have an abortion, or choosing to be a lazy poor person, or choosing to be an anti-American Moslem terrorism supporter.  It’s a terrible, awful, no-good choice made by bad people, and it’s right and fair to ridicule and persecute them for it.  The way you laugh at the fat kid on the playground.  Like Jesus taught us.  

  • AnonymousSam

    Aun-nurgh. x_o

    I would be more eloquent today, but I’m fresh out of SAN after having been directed to the Top 100 list of worst things ever seen from the fingers or mouth of a fundamentalist.

  • http://profiles.google.com/esperandopara Nicholas Reed

    I used to be a red-blooded, God-fearing, heterosexual, “real American.”  But somehow, seeing rainbow colours in a cookie has now convinced me to hate Jesus and vaginas.  I will now ditch my wife and children, who I have suddenly and whimsically decided I no longer care about, in accordance with the Gay agenda. Because everyone but fundamentalist Christian Republicans are such a weak, impressionable characters that our judgment can be completely overwhelmed and all our most important life choices dictated by a fycking cookie that doesn’t even exist.

    In order to be offended by the ad, the above narrative has to be plausible to you; you would have to believe that someone out there might actually think that way. And yet those who are threatening boycotts are absolutely convinced that they have better judgment and more moral fortitude than everyone who disagrees with them. Talk about being a weak, impressionable character…

  • AnonymousSam

    The things I’m reading indicate that this is 100% plausible to far too many people. Allow me to quote:

    We have to tolerant and inclusive. In the future all heterosexuals will have to submit to a night of gay sex to prove their loyalties to the ideals of tolerance and inclusiveness. The Democratic party will demand it. Joe Biden will demand it. Obama’s safe sex czar will demand it. If you don’t submit you will be fined and forced to buy an ornament of gay Jesus for the Christmas tree.

    It could be a poe, but these days, it’s all too likely to be sincere…

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/BYRV35EWCL4AKVA3APJHDTND6A Steve

    So, in other words, Rod Dreher is protesting the right of Nabisco to pursue market share from a particular demographic, mainly because he objects to the existence of that demographic?  Are you trying to restrain free tade, Rod?  The Tea Party would like to have a word with you… ;-)

  • MaryKaye

    Have people heard Weird Al Yankovich’s parody of “The Right Stuff” about Oreos, called “The White Stuff”?  It seems applicable to this thread in a number of ways….

  • Stone_Monkey

    I would have though that visibility would be exactly what the homophobic bigots want from LGBTQ people; surely they should be crying out for more of it. Visibility, one would assume,  makes it far easier for them to spot the people they want to persecute. Otherwise, how are they going to tell them apart from everyone else?

    I mean, those of us with what the racist bigots would surely think of as “non-standard” ethnicities are impossible to miss. It’s no wonder that “passing” was considered such an abomination by the racists primarily because it meant that they would actually miss out on opportunities to persecute some of the people who they felt surely deserved it…

    After all, the last thing any stripe of bigot wants is to find themselves thinking of “the Other” as deserving of kindness, compassion and fair treatment like anyone else. I mean, they might have to then think about their motives, and that just wouldn’t do.

  • http://musings.northerngrove.com/ JarredH

     I think what you’re missing is that many of them don’t see persecuting LGBTQ people as an ends in itself, merely the means to an end:  To make LGBTQ people disappear.  Whether that disappearance is due to the fact that we cease to actually exist or simply go back into our closets and pretend we’re someone we’re not makes little difference to them.

  • Zumadave

    Next up for nabisco: bland white cookie with wine flavored cream filling. A communion hit to appease the gay haters.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    More offended wtf-ery: http://blogs.publishersweekly.com/blogs/genreville/?p=1998

    Yes, allowing gay marriage means that by 2065 we’ll have rapid and cheap Moon travel (but no two-way communication with it), polygamists who are wildly unhappy about it, nuclear war, and an “American Indian” president.

    If I were going to make a rainbow Oreo, I’d try to have one layer with all 6 parts in segments, with the right frosting and a pastry bag it should be possible.

  • Tricksterson

    Even if I agreed with the stance of that article I’d have to hate it jus tfor being horrible, horrible science fiction.

  • Münchner Kindl

    Yes, allowing gay marriage means that by 2065 we’ll have rapid and cheap Moon travel (but no two-way communication with it), polygamists who are wildly unhappy about it, nuclear war, and an “American Indian” president.

    Aside from all the other idiocies in this article (no real food, but IV – yeah, that’s only more expensive!) – what struck me most that abolishing one man-one women marriages leads to … polygamist marriages, and that’s somehow terrible, although

    1. The biblical patriarchs were allowed several wifes

    2. The ten commandments only forbid adultery, not multiple wives

    3. It’s mathematically difficult, because men and women are roughly 50:50. Even in extreme patriarchal societies like India and China, who use amniocentesis + abortion to lower the rate of girls, the total proportion hasn’t changed much. (Available girls in a particular age range, beautiful without blemishes, and cheap enough to afford the price, – those are becoming scarce, but that’s a very narrow subset of all women).

  • The_L1985

     Don’t forget, though, that polygamy could theoretically also include the practice of one woman taking several husbands.  The primary reason this form never caught on historically was because inheritance laws were based on paternity, which is easier to determine when a woman is only having sex with one man.

  • Münchner Kindl

    Don’t forget, though, that polygamy could theoretically also include the practice of one woman taking several husbands. The primary reason this form never caught on historically was because inheritance laws were based on paternity, which is easier to determine when a woman is only having sex with one man.

    I thought the term for one woman, several men was polyandry? And if I remember correctly, some groups in Tibet or Nepal have a variant where a woman marries all the brothers of the first husband, too. Apparently the same motive as for the sequential multiple husbands called Levite Law, where a woman married the brother of her dead husband to continue the line: a dangerous enviroment, or lots of war, kills too many men to supply a 1:1 ratio.

  • The_L1985

    Polygyny = one man, multiple wives
    Polyandry = one woman, multiple husbands

    Both polygyny and polyandry are forms of polygamy, which is the married form of polyamory. :)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/MEJ4FWDLETFH7BTEMY27VNVGM4 Matthew

    As much as I want to agree with Fred, I think he is engaging in a bit of overreach here.  The problem is one of context.  There is no reputable opposition to a Polish festival, so a mayor’s endorsement of such a festival is all up-side; the mayor is not weighing the issue of which group of constituents to support.

    Here’s contrasting example; the Orange Day parades in Northern Ireland.  Now, there is nothing intrinsically problematic about a group of Protestants celebrating the start of the Reformation.  And in a less charged environment (i.e., just about anywhere outside of Northern Ireland), local politicians of any faith could appear in a celebration of the Reformation without being at all controversial, and being political only in the sense of wanting to express solidarity with a bunch of voters.  But in the context of the Troubles, the parades became something altogether more sinister; they were an instrument of oppression and intimidation.  It is no coincidence that the parades snakes through predominantly Catholic areas.  Politicians could, and did attend such parades, but there was no question that such actions were political statements of sectarian support.

    Now, I am not saying that Gay Pride marches are equivalent to Orange Day parades.  But I think it is disingenuous to suggest that they do not not have a political element.  As long as (otherwise) reputable people (like Dreher, for instance) oppose gay rights, the place of gay people in society is a political flashpoint.  Which means that Nabisco should be commended – they are taking a political stand in support of tolerance and inclusion, and in opposition to the traditional values of suppression of dissent and occlusion of difference. 

    (Or they have simply made a calculation that they stand to gain more by selling rainbow colored cookies than they will lose to boycotts from bigots.  But even in this case, they are choosing sides in a political conflict.)

  • Tardigradepat

    “Here’s contrasting example; the Orange Day parades in Northern Ireland.”

    Except the crucial difference here is context.
    In a Protestant-majority area where Catholics have been systematically oppressed for centuries, and religious violence is even now a legitimate concern, Protestants marching through Catholic neighborhoods in celebration of their religion is an incitement of violence and an act of intimidation. “Protestant Pride” in that context becomes a euphemism for, and justification of, terrorist acts.

    In a nation where Gays (and the rest of the alphabet) have been, and still are being, denied rights in defiance of the Constitution, literally the highest law in the land, a position of Gay Pride is a re-affirmation that those people exist and have an expectation of being treated with dignity and respect. 

    A powerful group declaring they are proud of their race/religion/orientation is worrisome, because it reinforces the idea that they deserve special privileges. A weak group declaring they are proud of their race/religion/orientation is generally a good thing, because it reinforces the idea that they deserve basic human rights.

    I agree with you that, unfortunately, affirming people’s humanity is a political stand; I think Fred is trying to say that it *shouldn’t* be a political statement.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

      Now, there is nothing intrinsically problematic about a group of Protestants celebrating the start of the Reformation. And in a less charged environment (i.e., just about anywhere outside of Northern Ireland), local politicians of any faith could appear in a celebration of the Reformation without being at all controversial,

    I’m not sure if you’e naive or just not Catholic, but a politician celebrating the start of the Reformation would be controversial just about anywhere, not only Northern Ireland.

  • Münchner Kindl

    I’m not sure if you’e naive or just not Catholic, but a politician celebrating the start of the Reformation would be controversial just about anywhere, not only Northern Ireland.

    um, why? No he wouldn’t. When the Protestant Church holds their two-yearly Church day, politicans attend (and not only known protestantic politicans, either).

    The Reformation was an important part of German history, so if a round year is celebrated, why should politicans not attend festivities?

  • LL

    I should feel sad for these people. I don’t, but how sad is someone who always a) points out everything that they don’t like, no matter what it is, no matter how seemingly harmless it is (my mother is one of these) and b) thinks that that thing is some sort of threat that needs to be stopped? How small and mean as a person are you when you just can’t say, “Eh, whatever.”?

    I have to do that every day. I see things I think are kind of appalling or dumb every day. But I don’t go out of my way to point them out and then suggest that they shouldn’t exist, simply because I don’t like them. 

  • Makarios

    @ LL–The prepetual outrage, the constant ginning up of non-issues, the insistence on making a culture-war battlefield out of every single thing, is how people like Dreher keep the troops riled up. It brings clicks to their blogs, money into their coffers, and voters to the polls. It’s of a piece with the annual outcries about the

    War on Christmas™, the overheated calls for boycotts of any business that doesn’t treat QUILTBAG folks like pariahs, and now a picture of a cookie. It’s petty, it’s cynical, and it can be pretty darned effective amongst a certain demographic.

  • iiii

    I wish they’d make varicolored oreo fillings and sell them in rainbow-ordered packages every June, followed by red-white-blue sets for July.

    Presumably someone in management there has already floated this idea or something like it and they decided it wouldn’t be cost-effective… but it sure would be pretty.

  • http://www.oliviareviews.com/ PepperjackCandy

    I also imagined squishing filling out between the cookies when trying to eat the Gay Pride Oreo.

    So I wasn’t sure whether to be relieved or disappointed when I realized that it was a manip.  If you look closely at the filling, you will see that the lines in the filling are exactly the same on each layer. 

    Whoever made it photographed one cookie and then duplicated the filling five more times and colored each one, but didn’t bother to polish out the lines and other markings first.   The first one I noticed was the two diagonal lines on the right-hand side, but now I can see about seven other markings that were exactly the same on each layer.

  • Keulan

    This is the same as the way anti-atheist bigots react to being reminded of the existence of atheists. They are “offended” that people who don’t believe in god(s) exist and are open about it. They’re just like Dreher and his fellow anti-gay bigots, who take offense at the existence of gay people.
    Good to see that the makers of Oreos are on the side of equality. It just makes me like their cookies even more.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    So I’m back from the shops where I went to buy Oreos. Thanks for the craving, everyone. I walked there and bought some bananas and a capsicum too, so it wasn’t a completely sugar-laden activity.

  • Stone_Monkey

    It’s also not the start of the Reformation they’re celebrating, not in NI anyway. They’re celebrating the defeat of James II forces at the Battle of the Boyne on 12 July 1690, the end of the Catholic Monarchy in Britain and thus the supremacy of Protestants over Catholics. They’re called the Orange Order for a reason, that reason being the Accession of the William III of Orange (via his wife, Mary II, who was James II daughter) to the English throne during the Glorious Revolution (which, ironically enough, happened on November 5 – an infamous date in Britain for other reasons that are also to do with Catholicism). There’s a reason the Marching Season has caused trouble in the past, and probably will in future, unfortunately. 

    There’s a whole mess of sectarian nonsense around this, but the one thing it’s definitively not about is commemorating the start of the Reformation.

  • Lori

    Further proof that Dreher and his ilk have already lost this fight and just refuse to notice:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrqqD_Tsy4Q&list=UUOCUuEaxCY0013YPnl0BJPQ&index=2&feature=plcp

    This is a video that a US high school student did for a video production class. Yes, it’s US-centric I’m pretty sure that’s the point. In any case, my reason for posting it is to note what he shows at 1:35.

    Dreher and NOM and all the rest of the haters can moan and complain and spend millions upon millions of dollars to delay the inevitable, but it’s still inevitable. The fact that the homophobes are having success delaying it is wrong and infuriating, but I’m still thrilled and amazed that we’ve come to the point where I can honestly say those rights will be settled within my lifetime (assuming that I don’t die at a statistically young age).

  • Tricksterson

    This reminds me of Koyanisqaatsi

  • Green Eggs and Ham

    The title of the article makes perfect sense.  It is also equally true that my right to make a profit trumps your right to survive working for me.

    I wish this were snark, but unfortunately and most tragically, this is true in an all too common way around the globe.

    I think it derives from a point I made in another thread:  There are many who think they have the right to privileges, and how dare anyone suggest that equality is a better standard.

  • The_L1985

    Most states don’t teach logic in K-12 at ALL.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    Which should be considered criminal negligence, in my opinion.  We need a population that understands logic if we want our democracy to be functional.  I tend to think that a lot of our current legislative deadlock and knee-jerk voting could have been avoided if more people were willing to apply a little logic to the political process.  

  • The_L1985

     I strongly agree. Sadly, the way the boards of education are set up….well.

    You did hear that last week the Texas BofE chose NOT to teach critical-thinking skills because “that would encourage rebellion?”  Yeah, boards of education are not exactly accountable to the people.

  • Lori

     

    You did hear that last week the Texas BofE chose NOT to teach
    critical-thinking skills because “that would encourage rebellion?” 
    Yeah, boards of education are not exactly accountable to the people.  

    The issue in Texas is that opposition to critical-thinking skills is an official plank in the Texas GOP party platform*. I don’t think the BoE had anything to do with it or that anything about primary education in Texas has changed.

    *The Texas GOP has since said that this was an error. Clearly their “error” was in being so honest about the fact that they hate critical thinking skills because those skills tend to make people not vote for the Texas GOP.

  • Lori

     

    Most states don’t teach logic in K-12 at ALL.  

    Not formal logic, but they pretty much have to teach some kind of logical reasoning skills in order to teach other things. Math, obviously, but also things like how to right the basic five paragraph essay.

    If a person has gotten far enough in school to have learned story problems and the FPE then s/he should at least be able to recognize that mud man’s argument about Voss Lighting is nonsense. The person may not be able to identity exactly why it’s nonsense, but they should know that it’s wrong.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

     

    If a person has gotten far enough in school to have learned story
    problems and the FPE then s/he should at least be able to recognize that
    mud man’s argument about Voss Lighting is nonsense. The person may not
    be able to identity exactly why it’s nonsense, but they should know that
    it’s wrong.

    I think the problem is less, “People don’t have critical reasoning skills” and more “People will choose to suspend their critical reasoning skills in order to accept something that they supports something they already believe”. 

    I’m sure that if you took those same people and presented them equally flawed arguments in support of something that hurt them personally, all of a sudden they would find the ability to poke those arguments full of holes.

    Should we do a better job of teaching logic and math? Absolutely. But I don’t think that it will have as much of an impact as some of us assume. If highly-educated scientists can be suckered into believing dubious proofs that justify their homophobia, their Young Earth Creationism, etc. despite going to some of the best schools in the history of the planet…

  • Münchner Kindl

    If highly-educated scientists can be suckered into believing dubious proofs that justify their homophobia, their Young Earth Creationism, etc. despite going to some of the best schools in the history of the planet…

    Which schools are you talking about here? Just because US private schools or colleges like Harvard are terrible expensive, doesn’t make them the “best schools”! Quite contrary, the fact that you can buy your way into Harvard means the quality will be lower. And if 19 out of 20 students in one classroom lack basic skills – as too many personal anecdotes of teachers show – then the single other student still can’t learn too much because the others will slow down the speed. (Heck, don’t some colleges still grade on curves??)

    If you want some of the best schools according to PISA, you would need to go to Finland – where, because they are a small nation, take every child serious and don’t mind spending money to give everybody a chance. Including things like a book mobile every two weeks to remote farms where only a handful of people live, no matter how cost-ineffective that service is.

    It does work, too – By proportion of their total population, Finns are among the most active readers (and sharers of books).

    And I haven’t heard of highly-educated scientists from good schools believing in YEC – all I have heard are people with a degree, which can come from any backwater college (since the US doesn’t have a national standard on what counts as college), and a lot of lies, like a faked letter being published where it turned out the scientists whose names were given hadn’t been asked or had vociferiously spoken against the letter.

    Got some examples?

    As for homophobia: until the 70s, being gay was still considered a mental disease in the standard manual. Sexual orientation really started as subject of scientific research with Kinsey in the 50s. The whole field is still far too new to have any solid evidence, esp. when compared to other subjects (evolution or gravity has truckloads of hard evidence compared to a few shelves for gayness).

    That strong social forces influence the psychologial aspect of sexual orientation makes the whole thing even more complicated to research, or to get a neutral finding on. So while the evidence we currently have is overwhelmingly pointing towards Gay being not a choice – there still isn’t enough evidence for scientists to be absolutly sure.

    Finally, scientists aren’t like in Hollywood http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OmnidisciplinaryScientist
    they know about a very narrow field. A geologist who is homophobic because he was raised that way and has since high school never bothered to research biology and the current findings is not illogical (only lazy and misinformed).

    Creationism is unexcusable among serious scientists, of course. It’s too much part of the public debate and basic science education to miss. But you don’t even have sexual education or biology of humans including sexual development as mandatory at all schools, and colleges narrow courses based on majors, so it’s possible to moderatly educated and not know the real facts about gays if the issue doesn’t compell one to do their own research.

  • The_L1985

    Nope, sorry.  It is perfectly possible for someone to get through school having to be told what to do, step-by-step, the whole way along.  I am an intelligent person, but it wasn’t until after I finished high school that I was able to structure and write an entire essay all by myself with no input*.  And math word problems–even the 4th grade ones–required me to get help.  I know what words like “sum” and “difference” meant–but I wasn’t sure what was being added to what in order to set up an equation.

    A lot of teachers will simply give you a problem, like “The sum of three consecutive integers is 15,” and never explain how you know that this means x + (x + 1) + (x + 2) = 15.  I was in AP Calculus before I figured this one out–again, entirely on my own, because I was never given any clue as to how to start the reasoning process.  (I was just told, by my parents and teachers, “Consecutive means they’re right after each other when you count, so it’s [the equation above].”)  Why 15 was the number all by itself was not explained, and I didn’t understand why; I just set up my homework problems the way I was told to do.  Once I had the equation already set up, I used the steps (memorized by rote) to solve that equation–I was very good at following the procedure, so the word problems were generally the only ones I missed, and they were seldom on tests anyway.

    If this is true of someone who qualifies for MENSA**, I have very little hope that the average student is able to reason at all, because metacognition–thinking about thinking–is never covered.  Teachers forget that you don’t just know how to think–you have to learn how to reason through a problem in the same way that you have to learn to do anything else worth doing.  I have to fight the temptation all the time to cut corners in my explanations because “surely my students already know how to do that.”

    * My K-12 years were unusually writing-heavy, too–I actually took penmanship classes, which had been abandoned by most public schools ages ago.

    ** I’m not saying it to brag; I’m saying it to point out how intensely hard it is to teach yourself how to think for yourself.

  • crazylikeafox

    “To take a political stand is to stand against something”
    Why? Who says taking a political stand has to be a stand against something? Why can’t it be a stand for something? I’d much rather stand for something than against something.


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