The men of the ‘Gospel Coalition’ really, really hate women

What in the name of all that is holy is wrong with these people?

Before we go on I should note that much of what follows could be triggering — because apparently in order to discuss something called “The Gospel Coalition,” we’re also going to need to discuss rape and rape culture and what these strange, cruel men refer to as sexual conquering in the name of their strange, cruel God.

Because, sweet Jesus, these men have issues. The Gospel Coalition is really bad news.

For some reason this Gospel Coalition bunch — neo-Calvinist patriarchal types in the John Piper/Mark Driscoll/T.J. Mackey mold — decided to weigh in on the current popularity of 50 Shades of Grey.

Rachel Held Evans summarizes:

In a post on the GC Web site entitled “The Polluted Waters of 50 Shades of Grey, etc,” Jared Wilson argues that the popularity of 50 Shades of Grey simply reflects a perversion of the proper, God-ordained relationship of authority and submission between men and women. To support his point, he quotes from Douglas Wilson’s book, Fidelity: What it Means to be a One-Woman Man:

Because we have forgotten the biblical concepts of true authority and submission, or more accurately, have rebelled against them, we have created a climate in which caricatures of authority and submission intrude upon our lives with violence.

When we quarrel with the way the world is, we find that the world has ways of getting back at us. In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts. This is of course offensive to all egalitarians, and so our culture has rebelled against the concept of authority and submission in marriage. This means that we have sought to suppress the concepts of authority and submission as they relate to the marriage bed.

But … our banished authority and submission comes back to us in pathological forms. This is what lies behind sexual “bondage and submission games,” along with very common rape fantasies. Men dream of being rapists, and women find themselves wistfully reading novels in which someone ravishes the “soon to be made willing” heroine. Those who deny they have any need for water at all will soon find themselves lusting after polluted water, but water nonetheless.

This man is unwell, unwhole and unhinged. God have mercy on Mrs. Wilson, and on all her daughters.

Evans responds:

There is so much about this passage that I, as a woman, find inaccurate, degrading, and harmful that it’s hard to know where to begin. That Wilson blames egalitarianism for the presence of rape and sexual violence in the world is ludicrous and unsubstantiated. His characterization of sex as an act of conquering and colonization is disturbing, and his notion that women are little more than the passive recipients of this colonization, who simply “accept” penetration, is as ignorant as it is degrading.

She goes on, at great length, to conquer the Wilsons’ hateful assertions with a penetrating argument. Read the whole thing.

J.R. Daniel Kirk points out that in Jesus’ name no, this is not a healthy view of sex and gender, or a biblical view, or a Christian view:

When you sexually conquer someone, this is rape. … I am embarrassed for Christianity that such an advocacy of rape (marital or otherwise) could find itself onto a websites that boasts of being one of a “Gospel” coalition.

Scot McKnight is just as blunt, writing “Take it down” and calling on the group to remove it’s cruel, degrading and “woefully ignorant” post.

Grace at Are Women Human? has a long and thoughtful response: “Doug Wilson, The Gospel Coalition, and Sanctified Rape Culture“:

Wilson goes much farther than any rape apologist Christian writer I’ve ever read, and that’s a lot of people. His notion of godly sex is little more than sanctified rape. In the name of Jesus.

He also says (as Jared Wilson states in a comment defending this filth) that “rape is judgment upon a culture that does not cherish and protect women.” We should be OK with this, according to Jared, because Doug Wilson isn’t blaming rape survivors for being raped. He’s only blaming all women who want to be treated equally and all of our allies. That’s all.

So just who is this twisted “Doug Wilson” creature, anyway? Glad you asked. Grace provides some more background on this horrible trainwreck of a human being:

Doug Wilson is not only a rape apologist; he’s also a slavery apologist. And contrary to Jared Wilson’s dismissal of commenters who repeatedly tried to point this out, this is absolutely relevant to Wilson’s teachings about obligatory female submission in sex.

Wilson is the co-author with Steve Wilkins, a white supremacist, of a pamphlet called Southern Slavery as it Was, which claims that Southern slavery “was not an adversarial relationship with pervasive racial animosity” but a relationship between “friends and often intimates.”

Jesus wept.

  • Isabel C.

    Heh, yes.

    I read Cosmo at the gym and the hair salon, and every so often they’ll run a letter to the effect of “Oh my God, I think I might like to be tied up, what’s wrong with me?”

    And my immediate response is “…well, you seem to have spent the last ten years in a cave, for one thing.” But yeah. Goes along with the “oh my God my SO watches porn!” letters:  what is this, rumspringa month? 

  • Isabel C.

    …and once again, I end up having to stick up for a craptacular work of ridiculous fiction* because the people bashing it are asshats. GODDAMMIT YOU GUYS THIS IS WHY WE CAN’T HAVE NICE THINGS.

    *There is way better BDSM fic out there. There’s less offensive BDSM fic out there that was written a hundred years ago, or by Anne Rice. Why is *this* what gets popular? Fucking human race…

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/4AIOQIHJD6UMQWCPKNDKIDA24Y Jaracai Williams

    That’s funny, Christians tend to preach things that the world hates to hear and tries to censor at every opportunity. Yet when someone preaches something biblical, (yes, what Wilson preaches is in the Old Testament) some Christians take offense and try to have it taken down, and censored. There’s a great deal of hypocrisy floating around here I see.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/4AIOQIHJD6UMQWCPKNDKIDA24Y Jaracai Williams

    Damn heathen.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2CUJHSQSQYTYT4DPZSKTVESYNQ B

     I’m sure this has been said a zillion times in other places, but that’s a counter-argument to the whole, “I protect her, care for her, take her needs into consideration, and sacrifice for her!  So even though she’s supposed to submit to my authority, we’re still equals.”

    Seems like you can say that about your dog, too.  Or your toddler.  Or for that matter, your tomato plants. (Standing out there removing suckers in this heat sure feels like a sacrifice to me. And they’re drinking up part of my water bill, too.)

    Obviously dog != toddler != tomato plant, but my point is that you can care for and protect something a great deal, and take its needs into consideration in all your decisions, without it even approaching being a relationship between equals.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    My sample size is small, but I’d say that finding submission sexually appealing and being/wanting to be submissive in non-sexual contexts correlate very poorly.

    My sample size isn’t small, and you are correct about that. How submissive do I seem when I post here ;-)?

    However, within the relationship itself, it depends. When one has a relationship in which the other person is allowed and encouraged to order the other into bed whenever that person chooses, it does impact all aspects of life. Wonderfully so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing a submissive role in a relationship. I think we in the U.S. look down on people who aren’t assertive or dominant “enough”, and that’s a form of prejudice.

    To your other point: Lots of subs don’t want to dominate and do want to be dominated. So they could not be just as happy if they were with someone who was either a switch or not dominant. I think there is a spectrum within dom/sub just as there is a spectrum of attracted to same sex/attracted to other sex. 

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    Bettie Boop was a huge temperance advocate, didn’t you know?

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    Unfortunately, those clubs and centers aren’t good for those people who are monogamous and also neither voyeuristic nor exhibitionist :(. 

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    It is not skeevy. It is the opposite of skeevy. If you don’t want to do it, don’t do it, but do not judge people who do please.

    Remember that it is ROLEPLAY. Someone in the ravisher position will stop immediately as soon as the person in the ravished role indicates they want to stop. The person in the ravisher role is always watching for the least sign of that. And trust me, this kind of roleplay can be incredibly joyful and healing. 

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    There is way better BDSM fic out there.

    YES. *mumble mumble where’s my millions of dollars grumble*

  • LMM22

    There is *way* better BDSM *fanfiction* out there. I can’t speak for “Twilight” — though I’ve been told it’s out there — but, back in the day, “Buffy” had some *awesome* stuff.

    And — I should note — from what I’ve read of it, _Fifty Shades of Gray_ has a much lower sex to plot ratio than your average epic-length erotic fanfiction.

    Of course, a lot of the stuff out there is slash, which might complicate things. We can tie people up, but we can’t get *too* kinky.

  • AnonymousSam

    It’s pretty commonly acknowledged within the community that most of BDSM centers around and is done mostly for the benefit of the submissive.

    This. So much this. And it’s true to the point that some of the only arguments my SO and I have had is who “has” to be the dominant one.

    I swear, no one who hasn’t truly had these yearnings has the slightest idea what they’re like and should be treated like a criminal if they attempt to speak on behalf of those who do.

  • AnonymousSam

    I’d love to see that reaction. Especially to the thought of a woman [data expunged] to a man in complete and utter role-reversal.

    Head exploding probably would be the most likely outcome. Still, it’s not science until you test the hypothesis!

  • friendly reader

     

    I know we are talking women’s issues, but that little tract really
    freaked me out.  Now, I have it on my google tracking….no telling what
    will be pushed my way for advertising.

    Use Firefox, get the Scriptblocker add-on and block google syndication.

    While your at it, get Add Blocker Pus and Better Privacy.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Which is why it will be a great day when we invent a robot that can be programmed to dominate both partners at the same time.

    Or perhaps I have said too much.

  • AnonymousSam

    Well, you know, Japan is pioneering field of AI and robotic automatons…

  • Otrame

    Some of my favorite fan fiction is BDSM, even though I am completely not turned on by BDSM (no problem with it, just not my thing).   That is because the BDSM is consensual and profoundly loving, in a society in which most people are either Doms or Subs (with a bunch of  switches and occasional non-dynamic) and the whole society is based on this fact. I am more interested in the author’s vision of such a society, and in the romantic love of the main characters than in the BDSM itself.  

    I think Wilson’s view of sex is just plain perverted.  

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    Well, quite a few people aren’t turned on by slash. Like me. Erotica has to be a woman and a man or it does nothing for me. (A woman and two men might work also, but I’ve never wanted to write it, so probably not.) I wish it were different, but that’s how it is.

    Also, a lot of people don’t like reading fanfic, and a lot of that stuff is fanfic. Even those willing to look at fanfic are gonna be appalled by some of the combinations. Like, I’m willing to give adult Ginny/Harry erotica a try, but when I even see the tag Draco/Hermione I’m immediately massively turned off and there goes that idea.

    However, there is actually a lot of het BDSM that is not fanfic online — I don’t know if much is book length though. 

  • Tonio

    Sorry, I was just describing my emotional reaction and not passing judgment on anyone else. I doubt that I could trust anyone who wants me to be in a position where I have all the vulnerability, regardless of the context. That has nothing to do with whether other people should or shouldn’t have trust in such a situation.

  • Mark Z.

    Yeah, but some of us don’t like tentacles.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    I think you’re not really getting it. Let me explain. No, there is too much, let me sum up.

    In ravishment roleplay, the dom does not want the sub to have all vulnerability. (I’m using shorthand terms here, this kind of roleplaying doesn’t have to be dom/sub.) First, remember that the sub can stop or pause play at any time. Immediately. With no repercussions or discussion — sub wants it stopped, it’s stopped, period.

    Second, the dominant has a massive amount of responsibility. The doms I know enjoy this responsibility both erotically and on a deep emotional level. Yes, they often also enjoy inflicting pain and exercising power, but they would not enjoy these things if the sub did not enjoy receiving pain and handing over power. While the dom does please him or herself, certainly, they put more into pleasing the sub. I.e., the dom holds the sub down because the sub wants it, the dom calls the sub names because the sub wants it, the dom slaps the sub because the sub wants it, the dom tells the sub the sub exists to serve the dom sexually because the sub wants to hear that.

    And the dom can make mistakes. Then the dom is in the position of knowing that they were pouring so much into making this experience awesome for the sub, and they screwed up. It was probably an unforeseeable accident, but still, the dom wanted to create these wonderful feelings for the sub, and now the sub is miserable. How do you think that feels to someone who’s a caretaker type?

    What I’m trying to say is, for a good, caring dom, the dominant role is every bit as emotionally vulnerable as the submissive role, if not more so.

  • Heather Munn

    Fred, I just want you to know this crap didn’t originate with Gospel Coalition and the guy who posted it up there, Jared Wilson, didn’t even understand the quote to mean anything like what, well, it means. He says he thinks there should be mutual submission in sex and he told me in an email that when Doug Wilson write “Authority and submission are an erotic necessity” he took it to mean God as the authority that both people submitted to…

    So yeah. He doesn’t hate women, and I doubt that the rest of Gospel Coalition does. He just got taken in by a guy who, well… totally does. Doug Wilson deserves your article, Jared Wilson doesn’t.

    I’m not affiliated with GC in any way, BTW. I’m Mennonite. I just took the time to have an email conversation to understand what was going on here before I decided who to be mad at. I see that everyone else’s reaction in the meantime has been… somewhat different.

  • Caravelle

    They may be aware of it, they just stuff it in the Encyclopedia Britannica sized file they keep in their heads labeled “Sexual Abominations.” It’s why there’s so little room in their brains for anything else.

    When I read that my first reflex was “Encyclopedia Britannica ?? How last century ! Have you heard of Wikipedia ?”

    But then I got the image of a Conservative-Christian-maintained Wiki of Sexual Abominations and my brain just dissolved into evil laughter.

  • Caravelle

    When Jared Wilson writes a post that consists of 99% quoting someone else he should be expected to be held responsible for that quote, yes, unless he’s explicitly disassociating himself from it, which he doesn’t here. And if it turns out that quote completely misrepresented his position in a horrible way he ought to apologize for his misunderstanding and clarify his own position, not dig in. Which he does here.

    Forget for a second considerations of whether you should consider Jared Wilson a Good Person or whether he Hates Women (for that matter, would Doug Wilson agree he Hates Women ? If you’re willing to draw the line at Doug Wilson but not Jared Wilson, what is your criterion and why should we all adopt it ?), and consider what he actually posted.

  • Tonio

    I think I understand that on an intellectual level. I would simply perceive the simulation as me having all the vulnerability and none of the power. The simulation would seem to require an almost absolute trust, and I would most likely not be capable of that because the simulation goes against everything I’ve ever learned to be comfortable with. It would remind me very strongly of two incidents involving my father. And I seem to lack the ability to predict others’ behavior. So I couldn’t assume that I would have the ability to stop or pause play – I would fear the possiblility that the dom might lose control and take out her anger on me. I’m not claiming that this would be a reasonable fear to have of BDSM devotees specifically.

  • PJ Evans

     The more conservative Catholics got up in arms about that one, too, as well as other movies. Nothing like wanting a movie banned before it’s even been reviewed, let alone opened in theaters.

  • LMM22

    Slash doesn’t do it for me, but it’s so ubiquitous online (and, as far as I can tell, almost the majority of BDSM-related fanfic) that it’s likely that, if one goes *just* by quality alone, most of the best will be slash.

    Fanfic was brought up because _Fifty Shades_ is a Twilight fanfic with a search-and-replace function. It’s just a terrible example of the genre. (Like I said, there are way better book-length BDSM fanfics out there. The issue is that no one ever arrives at a conclusion.) — And, honestly, if one is going for a particular kink, I’ve found it’s often easiest to just look at a (very large) fandom that one has no particular affiliation with. I can’t read Buffy / Spike stuff. Hermoine / Draco works fine for me, though, mainly because I don’t care.

    I’ve seen a bit of online non-fanfic BDSM, but I’m neither sold on quality nor on concept. Part of the reason why fanfic can be so sexually dense — while still containing plot — is because there’s little need to introduce or develop characters or settings. (And, yes, I know, _Beauty_ — but you’ve got to admit that the characters there are thin and the world is very poorly developed.) Fanfic also has an informal infrastructure that’s really unparalleled anywhere else online (and, arguably, offline). Bad fanfic is, well, written by thirteen-year-olds. Good fanfic is almost certainly better than the vast majority of self-published works and arguably better than many actual published works. (*)

    So, yeah. Fanfic. Awesome stuff when good. Terrible when bad. Probably superior, at times, to the majority of the drek put out by most franchises. (I’m *positive* I could find you Star Trek fanfic better than, say, half of the actual novels out there.)

    (*) Just for anyone who attended Readercon this year: “People were told to drive more carefully.” I rest my case.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    Understanding it on an intellectual level is good. Nothing wrong with not wanting it yourself. It’s like — I couldn’t be in an open relationship. If my dude went and touched another woman sexually and then touched me, I’d want to vomit. But I know there’s nothing wrong with people who do want open relationships.

  • Caravelle

    And, honestly, if one is going for a particular kink, I’ve found it’s often easiest to just look at a (very large) fandom that one has no particular affiliation with. I can’t read Buffy / Spike stuff. Hermoine / Draco works fine for me, though, mainly because I don’t care.

    I’ve found the same thing. I really like m/m slash, but I’m not that much into fanfic (in my brain the only acceptable versions of characters and worlds are the author’s canon version, and my own), so the stories I’m really drawn to are those based on franchises I know nothing about (most notably back when I looked into those things, stuff involving Hercules)
    (and then I read stories from here http://www.mannazone.org/zone/index.html and I never went back to random m/m bdsm slashfic with a mediocre plot again) 

  • Isabel C.

    DUDE I KNOW. 

    As an author, I’m okay with the fact that I’ll probably never be as popular as King/Rowling/Pratchett. I mean, it makes me tear out my hair sometimes in a fit of WHY DIDN’T I WRITE THAT DAMMIT, but their success doesn’t make me twitch.

    Twilight/50 Shades/Da Vinci Code, on the other hand…I have to go somewhere quiet and repeat “cultural pressure point, cultural pressure point”. And drink. 

  • AnonymousSam

    You know what they say, “Once you’ve gone Cthulhu,

    “R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn!”

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Word on the “Twilight/etc” twitch factor. It’s especially depressing when someone like JR Ward writes improbably bad vampire stories and somehow spins them out into a 6 book arc and it’s like (O_O) OH GOD WHY.

    Anyway, fic wise? I’m very OK with slash, het, gen, the works. I just don’t like certain pairings (e.g. in the Harry Potter fandom Draco/Hermione really doesn’t do it for me, and I can’t even begin to try and like any teacher (usually Snape)/student type stories because like major boundary issues and stuff.)

  • Lori

     

    I am not worried about misogynists. But the only reason that they do not
    bother me is that I have never been without the protection of a
    sacrificial man.  

    Holy. Shit.

    There is so much wrong there that I can’t even. The thoughts are all jammed up in my head like 2 people trying to walk side by side through a narrow doorway.

     

    She was, in short, suffering from some serious Daddy issues.  

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

  • Lori

    That really doesn’t match well with where — from what I’ve seen —
    Savage gets his conclusions. If anything, his opinions tend to be
    derived from anecdata — i.e. from the tens of thousands (hundreds of
    thousands? millions?) of letters and emails he’s gotten over the years.  

    I have no idea how many letters Dan Savage has received over the years. I do know that they’ve mostly been from a self-selecting sample of the population who want advice from Dan Savage about some problem they’re having. In short, sampling problems, he haz them.

    Also, if you have people who are dom and don’t realize it then they’re not likely to connect with submissive partners. This will tend to contribute to relationship issues.

     

    And, honestly, it doesn’t matter what sort of narrow picture you have:
    the question is whether or not you’re willing to take that role with a
    partner  during sex — and whether the partner you have who *is* a sub
    sees you as dominant in that interaction. 

    The picture that you and your partner have of what a Dom is has everything to do with whether or not you’re willing to take on that role with a partner during sex.

  • Lori

    And if it turns out that quote completely misrepresented his position in
    a horrible way he ought to apologize for his misunderstanding and
    clarify his own position, not dig in. Which he does here.  

    Exactly. The original statement was made in public. Why should anyone have to rely on a private email exchange for clarification? If what Jared Wilson really meant is so innocent and so easy to explain why doesn’t he just post a follow-up?  For all we know it could be that his self-justification doesn’t really hold water and he doesn’t want to expose it to wide scrutiny.

    I’m certainly not inclined to simply take the unsupported word of a person who has never posted here before and has apparently never posted under this ID on any other topic.

    I’ve never been impressed with the old “the lurkers support me in email” claim and this variation doesn’t fill be with confidence either.

  • Lori

     

    I’m not affiliated with GC in any way, BTW. I’m Mennonite. I just took
    the time to have an email conversation to understand what was going on
    here before I decided who to be mad at. I see that everyone else’s
    reaction in the meantime has been… somewhat different.  

    Nice bit of self-righteousness for the big finish. You really stuck the landing.

  • fraser

     Caravelle, some reflexes outlast all logic. After all, it’s been years since NASA was on the cutting edge of modern technology, but the phrase is still “He’s no rocket scientist.”

  • guest

    I just recently read a woman describing her experience with no-strings/friends with benefits sex, who said she was often told ‘orgasms are for girlfriends’.  I was shocked; I’d never heard of that attitude before…but I have interacted with men who seem to think that ‘making her come’ was some kind of proof that they’re awesome at sex, rather than something coming from the idea that if two people are doing something together they should both be enjoying it.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    *Snerk*

  • LMM22

    Look: Like I said, self-selection (in this case from people who are unhappy) and some interaction with the BDSM community is about as good a set of data as you are going to get. Sociological shit? Hypothetical guesswork? None of that is going to do you any good.

    And, no, the picture that you and your partner have of what a Dom looks like may or may not have *anything* to do with whether or not you’re going to take that role in bed. I am a *total* sub. I don’t fit any of the stereotypes of what someone who is a sub looks like out of bed, and the chances that I’ll admit my preferences in an anonymous letter to an advice columnist are *much* higher than the chances that you’ll ever see me admit my preferences, while sober, to anyone else on the planet who I am not best friends with.

    This isn’t about gender differences. This is about the fact that, in all BDSM communities, the number of people who are submissive are far greater than the number who are dominant. (In heterosexual relationships, the fact that there are more kinky men than women makes such issues less visible.)

    I don’t know why you’re obsessively resisting this idea. Or, for that matter, failing to read the rest of the exchanges we’ve been having about them.

  • Tonio

    “Sacrificial man”? I picture him having his heart torn out like in the second Indiana Jones movie.

  • Lori

     

    I just recently read a woman describing her experience with
    no-strings/friends with benefits sex, who said she was often told
    ‘orgasms are for girlfriends’.    

    So clearly the guy is a total ass, but I have a question for the woman as well. For the love of FSM, why would you have a FWB thing going with a guy who has no interest in you getting benefits and who tells you that flat out, so it’s not like there’s room to believe the situation will get better?

    I could understand just wanting to be with another person, even if the sex isn’t fab. I understand skin hunger. I just don’t think a guy who believes you aren’t worth making any effort for at all is A) a friend and B) someone it would be enjoyable/comforting to be touched by.

    I can’t decide if I’m more horrified or depressed by the whole situation.

  • Lori

     

    I don’t know why you’re obsessively resisting this idea. Or, for that
    matter, failing to read the rest of the exchanges we’ve been having
    about them.  

    Nice. I am not “obsessively resisting” you idea. I’m pointing out that letters to Dan Savage are not the be all and end all on the issue. It sounds like Savage’s mail confirms you experience, which may be why you think it has weight. It does not confirm mine or the experience of other people that I know, which is part of the reason I can see the problems with relying on it as a data source.

     

    This isn’t about gender differences. This is about the fact that, in all
    BDSM communities, the number of people who are submissive are far
    greater than the number who are dominant. (In heterosexual
    relationships, the fact that there are more kinky men than women makes such issues less visible.)  

    The hell?

    Do you actually not understand that there may be factors driving these observations that have nothing to do with actual desires and everything to do with socialization?

  • Lori

    I was thinking of the meat you throw to get guard dogs to stop chasing you.

  • guest

    I don’t know, women have sex with men (people have sex with people) for all sorts of reasons other than to experience an orgasm.

  • Lori

     It’s not just the lack of orgasm, it’s the lack of respect. What is that guy giving her that’s worth being with someone who says straight out that she’s not worth the effort of being a good lover? The fact that they talked about it enough for her to have been told that “orgasms are for girlfriends”* would seem to indicate that she has some interest in having them.

    In the circumstances described I can think of many reasons for her to be having sex with this guy and they’re all kind of depressing to me.

    *Is sexual satisfaction in some way a reward for doing the other things involved in being a girlfriend or does the guy have some sort of weird version of the Madonna/whore thing going where only women “good enough” to be girlfriends deserve the effort it takes for them to have orgasms during sex? Is he just lazy and selfish beyond belief? Inquiring minds and all that.

  • LMM22

    It sounds like Savage’s mail confirms you experience, which may be why you think it has weight. It does not confirm mine or the experience of other people that I know, which is part of the reason I can see the problems with relying on it as a data source.

    Great. There are *just* as many dominants out there as submissives, it’s just that we have far worse stereotypes about dominants than we do about submissives and so they fail to self-identify. All of those relationships in which people complain that *both* of them want to sub are just delusions! Sociological theories have far more weight than any sort of (repeatedly confirmed, if you bothered to read the rest of the thread) anecdata out there! Armchair theorists FTW!

    Whatever. This isn’t worth arguing over. If that’s how you feel, that’s how you feel.

  • Lori

    The reason that this isn’t worth arguing over it that you’re totally mis-characterizing what I’ve said. (And also what’s been said by other people in the thread.) I can’t tell if we’re just talking past each other or if you’re willfully misunderstanding me because I’m disagreeing with you. Disagreement which is based on personal experience, your beloved anecdata, not just “sociological theory”.

    Either way, you’re right that it’s not worth it to continue.

  • Tricksterson

    In some ways I’m a very last century kind of guy.  And by “last century” I mean the 19th (albeit a steampunk 19th because i was born in the 20th.

  • Tricksterson

    I was thinking Wicker Man myself.


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