Whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, May 2012:

There are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that’s an entitlement and government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. I mean, the president starts off with 48, 49 … I mean, he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax; 47 percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn’t connect. He’ll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean, that’s what they sell every four years. And so my job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.

King Benjamin, Mosiah 4:16-19:

And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

(See Mary Barker on “Mitt, Moochers, and Mormonism’s ‘Other’ Legacy“)

  • Jim Roberts

    “except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever.”

    Huh. What’s the word for people who believe that those souls that don’t pass to heaven are destroyed? Is that a Mormon thing as well?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Romney at one point claimed to be in favor of gay rights.

    *snicker*

    He really does want to be all things to all people even if tenets of his faith go against what he says.

  • aunursa

    Meh.  It’s Romney’s “bitter clinger” moment.*  Just one of those “bumps in the road” of this election season.

    * “There ya go again aunursa, waving your hand and dismissing this cardinal sin with your ‘both sides do it’ observation.”

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ mistformsquirrel

     Annihilationism I believe is the right term. (I have no idea if it’s a Mormon thing or not.)

  • http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke

    Except that Obama was right about people clinging bitterly to guns and religion. The people he meant are more concerned that the people they vote for support gun rights (when barely anyone actually opposes them) and prefer the same flavour of ice cream god than they are about supporting things that matter.

  • VMink

    As far as I know, it’s not a Mormon thing.  (Please keep in mind this is kind of second-hand, I am not a Mormon nor do I play one on TV.)

    The Mormons actually seem to practice the closest thing to universalism that a major Christian sect (if one considers Mormonism to be Christian) gets.  There are three heavens or ‘degrees of glory.’

    If you’re a good Mormon, after the Second Coming you go to the Celestial Kingdom.  Even within the Celestial Kingdom there are three sub-degrees.  The least two aren’t described except to say that the people going there will be like unto ‘ministering angels.’  The highest degree will be for the very elect (this is a key term) and will live a life like unto God; this is the degree for those who live a fully good Mormon life and will be exalted (no, not that kind) and will eventually have their own universe to create.

    The Terrestrial Kingdom will be populated by those who heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ but were blinded or deceived.  Basically this is where all other Christians besides Mormons go.

    Finally there is the Telestial Kingdom, where those who didn’t hear the word of Jesus go.  All sorts of mean and sinful people are here, and they will be in a Spirit Prison for a thousand years for Christ’s millenial reign.  But at the end of that reign, they’re released.  The Telestial Kingdom isn’t as nice as the Terrestrial Kingdom, and it’s way not as good as the Celestial — you can’t get much further from God than the Telestial — but it’s really a much nicer place than the way the world is now.

    Of course, there is a ‘much father from God,’ and that’s the Outer Darkness.  Here go the ‘sons of perdition,’ those people who outright rejected the word of Jesus.  Basically, if you hear about Jesus but still reject his word, you’re a son of Perdition (“Perdition” in this sense being a proper name for the devil.)  There are apparently two classes of sons of perdition: Those who conspired with Satan in their pre-mortal life, and those who, upon hearing the word of Jesus, deny the Holy Spirit.  (It’s that rather ephemeral ‘sin against the Holy Spirit’ that the New Testament talks about but never quite gets around to defining.)

    Interestingly, Joseph Smith was rather emphatic that women will *not* be cast into the Outer Darkness.  Perhaps this ties in somehow with the Mormon doctrine (sadly under-studied) of the Heavenly Mother.

  • http://twitter.com/shutsumon Becka Sutton

    I am seriously wondering if Mitt Romney is an elaborate prank…

    http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/09/24/899441/romney-plane-windows/

  • Random Lurker

     If it wasn’t obvious during the primaries, with his constant changing of positions to match what the party expected, and his pathological lying during the campaign, Rmoney has no apparent ideology of his own.   Aside from just plain wanting power that is.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-Evans/100000619020207 David Evans

    “For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?”
    I never thought to find anything good in the Book of Mormon. But that’s excellent.

  • Robyrt

    Even when the Book of Mormon is talking about the basic concepts of monotheism – “Help the beggar, for you too are beggars before God” – it takes four paragraphs, with a counterargument and heavy use of repetition. One of the very few books I just couldn’t finish.

  • Nathaniel

    Not that you’ll acknowledge or care, but there is a big difference between those two statements.

    However much you agree or disagree with Obama’s statement, he wasn’t writing off the people in question. He thought they were misguided, but he still was going to be their president, and he wanted what he thought was best for them.

    Romney, on the other hand, was writing near half of the country off. They weren’t ever going to vote for him. They were worthless parasites anyways, so screw them.

    But in your usual fashion, you’ll parrot right wing talking points while disgenisouly dancing away from declaring a concrete postion on anything, other than what poor deluded souls we are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeff-Lipton/100001171828568 Jeff Lipton

    Yes, aunursa, they’re EXACTLY the same.

    Yeesh.

    At least you’re admitting you’re an idiot.  It’s a start.

  • VMink

    Although now I’m considering a ‘Telestial Exalted’ splatbook…. >.>

  • Boidster

    Yes, yes, the two statements are nearly identical (my emphasis)…

    But notice what else the recording shows. Obama tells his audience not to write off any group.  He recommends humility and openness. Even in the most unlikely neighborhoods, among “people of every background,” he tells his volunteers they’ll find supporters.

  • Tricksterson

    No M<ormons do believe in Hell although apparently except for all but a few truly wicked people it's not permemnent as, at the Fianl Judgement all but those few will be allowed into a kind of lower class heaven.

    The ones who believe that the sinful are just annihalated are the Jehovah's Witnesses.  Maybe other groups too but none occur to me at the moment.

  • Boidster

     This article at Wonkblog (with The Pie Chart of Truth™)  should be required spam in any thread where the “47 percent” line is discussed.

  • http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke

    Wouldn’t those be Abyssals? Celestial and Terrestrial are obvious, and the Outer Darkness gets the Infernals. No love for the Lunars in Mormon Exalted I guess. 

  • VMink

    That would make sense.  ‘Telestial’ seems to be etymologically related to ‘telos,’ or ‘ending,’ which would be appropriate for Abyssals.  But adding yet another splat book with ‘-al’ exalteds is too tempting to pass up! =)

    Mormon Lunars.  Hmm, Mormon Werewolves?  That’d have made Brigham Young’s defense of Salt Lake VERY interesting indeed.  Hilarity aside, though, if we keep going on with this… does this mean that the Realm is in Nauvoo, Illinois?

  • vsm

     Not sure if Dada or Disqus bug. Possibly both.

  • http://hummingwolf.livejournal.com/ Hummingwolf

    Tricksterson’s original comment appears to have been this:

    No Mormons do believe in Hell although apparently except for all but a few truly wicked people it’s not permemnent as, at the Fianl Judgement all but those few will be allowed into a kind of lower class heaven.The ones who believe that the sinful are just annihalated are the Jehovah’s Witnesses.  Maybe other groups too but none occur to me at the moment.

    s Witnesses.  Maybe other groups too but none occur to me at the moment.The introduction of an unwanted bit of code after the “M” in “Mormon” may have been the thing that caused the words in the rest of the comment to be arranged in alphabetical order.  Either that, or it’s all Nicolae’s fault.
    No Mormons do believe in Hell although apparently except for all but a few truly wicked people it’s not permemnent as, at the Fianl Judgement all but those few will be allowed into a kind of lower class heaven.

    The ones who believe that the sinful are just annihalated are the Jehovah’s Witnesses.  Maybe other groups too but none occur to me at the moment.s Witnesses.  Maybe other groups too but none occur to me at the moment.
    The introduction of an unwanted bit of code after the “M” in “Mormon” may have been the thing that caused the words in the rest of the comment to be arranged in alphabetical order.  Either that, or it’s all Nicolae’s fault.

  • http://hummingwolf.livejournal.com/ Hummingwolf

    Based on the page source code, I’m thinking that typo + Disqus = Dada.  The Antichrist may also have inserted himself in there somewhere along the way.

  • EllieMurasaki

    You seem to be implying that Disqus is not a creation of the Antichrist.

  • http://hummingwolf.livejournal.com/ Hummingwolf

    You seem to be implying that Disqus is not a creation of the Antichrist.

    It is obvious to all those with discernment that Facebook is The Social Network of The Beast.  Disqus is a creation which allows those of us who have not taken the mark of the Facebook to make comments on blogs anyway.  A house divided against a house falls.  If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand?

  • EllieMurasaki

    If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand?
    Read Elizabeth Bear’s–hell, what’s the series name. Ink & Steel, Hell & Earth, Blood & Iron, Whiskey & Water; this bit is only relevant in the last of the four but you have to read the other three first to make any sense of the fourth. (And Hell & Earth must follow Ink & Steel, but Blood & Iron can be read before or after those two.) There’s Lucifer. There’s also Satan. There’s also several other devils; I think only one gets a name, which I won’t say because spoiler. These are all distinct beings with distinct goals and motivations.

    And for bonus points large fractions of the main cast are queer and in the two modern-day books nobody minds this (and neither do most of the folks we meet in the Elizabethan books, actually, though I can’t work out whether God in these books is actually anti-queer or if that’s just what the 1500s-born characters believe), and the modern-day books have multiple prominent characters of color and an intersex character. I think Lily’s the only intersex character I have ever seen in professional fiction, actually.

  • Albanaeon

     Hmm.  Anti-Christ of minor annoyances and generating strife through miscommunications.

    I think that’s actually Buck…

  • Diona the Lurker

    Given that Nicolae posts here regularly and seems quite friendly towards us, I can’t imagine why he’d want to foul up Disqus here. Are you sure we can’t blame this on Turbojesus?

  • Joshua

    Disqus is the work of Phil, Prince of Insufficient Light.

    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-06-02/

  • Wingedwyrm

    “believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that’s an entitlement and government should give it to them.”
     
    I almost wonder about the character of somebody who could honestly state what Romney stated in that recording.  But, here it is.  He can throw health care, food, and housing off with a “you-name-it” as though they’re just random things that someone might want with the sureness of someone who never, ever, had to question whether or not he might have those things available to him.

  • Tricksterson

    Disqus

  • Tricksterson

    I’m not sure if this is the official title, she doesn’t seem to very good at giving her series/trilogies names nut i cal it the Promethean Society series.

    And yeah, you don’t have to go far in any work by Ms. Bear to find  GLB characters.

  • http://mistformsquirrel.deviantart.com/ mistformsquirrel

    Actually it reminds me of Crowley from Good Omens >.> (that was a good book)

  • Fusina

     Even more chilling is the laughter of the audience. Because they were okay with it. I kind of adopted a lady at my church–I had no grandmas left as they all had passed away, and I needed one. She needed a grand-daughter too, so things worked out well. She worked her whole life, until she literally could not anymore. She is on social security, and medicare, and the hospital bills from when she ends up going are killing her. I am lucky in that we have enough and to spare, so I fill in corners where I can, attempting to leave her her pride. But the bills she does get, although not anything like the full cost of the stay are enough that  she has to choose between eating and paying them. (I’ve found that anonymous shopping cards from various grocery stores is something that can’t be tracked back to me, incidentally, in case anyone else here knows of someone in this sort of situation.) It is infuriating that someone who worked her whole life is left with nothing. 

  • Isabel C.

    Right.

    Someone pointed out, recently, that this was in May–and that Romney was basically telling his $50K-a-plate supporters what they wanted to hear, or trying to. 

    Don’t get me wrong: I think he’s vile for doing it. But I think he’s the Todd Akin of economic policy–he’s saying what his supporters believe, just way more bluntly. 

  • The Lodger

    Intersex characters? I can think of a few:

    Desire of the Endless

    Sarah Caudwell’s Professor Hilary Tamar

    Lois McMaster Bujold’s Bel Thorne

    Peter David’s Burgoyne 172 from Star Trek: New Frontier

    Can’t think of any in non-genre fiction at the moment.

  • vsm

    Jeffrey Eugenides’s Middlesex and Kathleen Winter’s Annabel are both acclaimed literary novels about intersex characters.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Desire is intersex? Completely missed that. Or saw it and forgot. *bumps Sandman higher up the purchase list*

    Never read Caudwell or Star Trek. Or Bujold, though I do actually own a Bujold book. Have not got around to reading it, but I do own it.

  • Tricksterson

    Yes , Desire can be either male or female at will and tends to look rather androgynous as either.  The two main characters of Kim Stanley Robinson’s latest book 2312 are both intersex, if I’m interpreting the term correctly.  Is it what’s commonly referred to as hermaphroditic?

  • AnonymousSam

    Speaking of taxes, politics and questionable church activities…

    Interesting position, this. “We’re going to break the law, to flagrantly break the law, to publicly break the law, and SHOW YOU that we’re breaking the law, if it means you’ll do your damned job.”

    I wonder which is more likely: that the IRS will ignore the law violation no matter how intentional it is, or that they’ll just revoke these churches’ exemption status and ignore the rest.

  • EllieMurasaki

    No chance that they’ll enforce the law all around?

    No, I suppose not. Shame.

    I keep wanting to start a business and make a noisy point of not hiring anyone who says they’re both heterosexual and cisgender until my jurisdiction passes a law against discrimination re sexual orientation and gender identity. (Straight people would get through if they were either trans or genderqueer and out about it, and cis people would get through if they were gay, bi, or ace and out about it, but heterocis people, tough shit. Also tough shit for closeted people, which I think I’d have to live with, unfortunately.) I can’t while I’m employed by the Division of Corporations, it’d be interest-conflicty, and I don’t know where I’d get enough money to start a business anyway, but it’s fun to think about.

  • The_L1985

     There are no true hermaphrodites in the human species.  “Intersex” means you have organs that look like something in-between, but not clearly male or female genitalia.  “Hermaphrodite” would imply that you have working copies of both.

  • EllieMurasaki

    My understanding is that there’s nearly as many varieties of intersex people as there are intersex people, and at least one of those varieties comes with both a testicle and an ovary. I haven’t ever been curious/intrusive enough to find out whether, in such a situation, both would work. Or to define ‘work’.

  • P J Evans

     Lyda Morehouse has some in her series beginning with Archangel Protocol. One of her intersex characters is the archangel Uriel.

  • Jenny Islander

    Does this shiny-toothed nebbish have a clue that most Americans can’t go to the doctor whenever they get a rash–can’t even take the recommended number of goddamn checkups–without incurring debt?

  • friendly reader

    Thank you for mentioning this title! I’ve been trying to remember the names of those books every time we talk about the potential for a schism in the Catholic church (which happened in them).

    In terms of recommending the books overall… they’re great for ideas, not so great on plot. They struck me as more like theology-through-fiction than good novels.

  • DannyHaszard

    Destructive cult or benign religion?
       The *Cult* word gets overused,but in some cases it is appropriate. The definition of a destructive religious cult is like alcoholism-if booze controls you instead of the other way around you are an alcoholic.I was in the Watchtower society Jehovah’s Witnesses,they are not benevolent and won’t let you leave their organization in peace.The Jehovahs are not without scandals-child abuse, sadistic mind control tactics, sex scandals, money scams, general bad behavior.Is it a cult? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck…. Danny HaszardFMI dannyhaszard(dot)com


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