No, no, no — we were fine with D’Souza’s racism, but the adultery is upsetting

LifeWay Christian book stores still carry Dinesh D’Souza’s books. For now.

The journalistic scoop belongs to Warren Cole Smith of the very conservative World magazine, so we’ll quote from his report first:

About 2,000 people gathered on Sept. 28 at First Baptist North in Spartanburg, S.C., to hear high-profile Christians speak on defending the faith and applying a Christian worldview to their lives. Among the speakers: Eric Metaxas, Josh McDowell, and — keynote speaker for the evening — best-selling author, filmmaker, and Christian college president Dinesh D’Souza.

Dinesh D’Souza says anti-colonialism is un-American. He even says this in D.C., in a city named after George Washington.

D’Souza’s speech earned him a standing ovation and a long line at the book-signing table immediately afterward. Although D’Souza has been married for 20 years to his wife, Dixie, in South Carolina he was with a young woman, Denise Odie Joseph II,* and introduced her to at least three people as his fiancée.

Finally, near 11 p.m., event organizer Tony Beam escorted D’Souza and Joseph to the nearby Comfort Suites. Beam noted that they checked in together and were apparently sharing a room for the night in the sold-out hotel. The next morning, around 6 a.m., Beam arrived back at the hotel and called up to D’Souza’s room. “We’ll be down in 10 minutes,” D’Souza told Beam. D’Souza and Joseph came down together, and Beam took them to the airport.

The next day another conference organizer, Alex McFarland, distressed by D’Souza’s behavior, confronted him in a telephone conversation. D’Souza admitted he shared a room with his fiancée but said “nothing happened.” When I called D’Souza, he confirmed that he was indeed engaged to Joseph, but did not explain how he could be engaged to one woman while still married to another. When asked when he had filed for divorce from his wife, Dixie, D’Souza answered, “Recently.”

Amy Sullivan describes “The Right-wing Rivalry Behind” that scoop:

Needless to say, this sort of thing is frowned upon in the conservative religious circles in which D’Souza is usually celebrated. So it is perhaps unsurprising that the story was broken by Warren C. Smith, a writer and associate publisher for the evangelical World magazine. The publication has a history of covering problems within the evangelical world, and it has not shied away from stories about preacher scandals or church abuse of women. But this particular story may have interested the magazine for a different reason: World’s editor-in-chief is Marvin Olasky, the sometime Bush advisor who is no fan of D’Souza.

Olasky served, briefly, as provost of The King’s College. He resigned shortly after D’Souza became the school’s president. Read the whole thing for Sullivan’s take on the nasty history between these two nasty men.

Christianity Today’s report notes that “D’Souza has regularly appeared in CT’s pages.” One example of that is CT’s report on D’Souza’s hiring at King’s, which emphasized that the conservative activist’s Roman Catholic faith should not preclude him from membership in the evangelical tribe:

D’Souza’s wife, Dixie, is an evangelical, and the family has attended Calvary Chapel, a nondenominational evangelical church in San Diego, for the past 10 years. He has been invited to speak in several churches and colleges, including Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church and Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University.

“I do not describe myself as Catholic today. But I don’t want to renounce it either because it’s an important part of my background. I’m an American citizen, but I wouldn’t reject the Indian label because it’s part of my heritage,” D’Souza said. “I say I have a Catholic origin or background. I say I’m a nondenominational Christian, and I’m comfortable with born-again.”

He said that his views align with the Apostles’ Creed and C. S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity.

That’s the imprimatur — the stamp of approval.

But D’Souza wasn’t embraced by the evangelical tribe just because he affirms the creeds and C.S. Lewis. What made CT and King’s College and the rest of mainstream evangelicalism decide that D’Souza was one of us was his political history — a former policy aide in the Reagan White House, D’Souza is fiercely opposed to abortion, gay rights, feminism and progressive taxation.

As Sarah Posner said, “D’Souza’s … rise in the evangelical world is due in no small part to his conspiracy-minded claims about President Obama’s ‘Kenyan, anti-colonial behavior.'”

Yes, conspiratorial warnings about Africans and anti-colonialism contributed to D’Souza’s legitimacy among evangelicals.

Bruce Garrett notes some of D’Souza’s odious political history:

How the man who, while editor of the Dartmouth Review, penned a racist parody of African American students titled “This Sho Ain’t No Jive Bro” and later outed a gay student using stolen mail between members of the Dartmouth Gay Student Alliance can in any sense be labeled a Christian is something confederate Christianists can explain I suppose.

Those two themes — racism and anti-gay sentiment — have endured as the hallmarks of much of D’Souza’s “scholarship.”

Alvin McEwen highlights a 2008 article of D’Souza’s titled, “Gay Rights vs. Democracy,” in which he pulls the man-on-dog nonsense.

Here is D’Souza’s idea of scholarship: “Why doesn’t the Fourteenth Amendment protect the fellow who wants to walk down the aisle with his poodle on the grounds that ‘I love my dog and my dog loves me’?” (What is it about the idea of consent that confuses these folks so much?)

Grace at Are Women Human? echoes Garrett’s observation, noting — savoring — the irony that D’Souza’s adultery has done what his nasty racism and homophobia never did, diminished his standing amongst evangelicals. The entire post — a Snoopy-dance of schadenfreude — is great fun, but the kernel of it is summed up in this one tweet from Grace:

Does it matter than D’souza peddles racist, colonialist lies? Nope. But he shared a hotel room with a woman he’s not married to! OH NOES

Or, as she writes in the post itself:

Sarah Posner writes for Religion Dispatches that this (presumed) sex scandal may spell the end for D’Souza’s once rising star. Note, not the fact that he’s been peddling racist and colonialist lies to white Christians for fun and profit for the past forever, but because of what’s assumed about his marriage and sex life. PRIORITIES.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

* Brian Tashman at Right Wing Watch quotes from a post by Odie Joseph II at Smart Girl Politics, which bears the unfortunate title of “Whatever Happened to Good Ole Hypocrisy?

Feminists and liberals … tore the traditional family to shreds until they reduced us to the shining bastion of zoological (but even animals aren’t this bad and do not depend on the state to care for them) cesspool equality that we have now in every American ghetto and which is seeping out into the middle and upper classes in less animated ways.

Her bogeymen are just like those of her boyfriend: Black.

As women spearhead the demise of the ideal, the alternative to hypocrisy, they spearhead the demise of social order as we know it and love it. Henceforth, all of us will be staring down the barrel of life in a hip hop video or government-funded project. …

Buzzfeed snagged a cached copy of Odie Joseph’s blog (which disappeared when the story broke), which reveals her to have been a fan of D’Souza’s books — and of Ayn Rand.

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  • Carstonio

    Fred might have linked to this great video, but I’ll present it again anyway. Stay with it toward the end. Maybe Rev. Snider is familiar with the old EC comics with their twist endings.

    http://gawker.com/5953357/missouri-pastors-fiery-speech-against-equal-rights-for-homosexuals-has-stunning-twist-ending

  • Consumer Unit 5012

     That speechw as great!

    Just don’t read the comments.  :(

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You know, every time I see that picture of D’Souza in this post I can’t help but grit my teeth at the faux sympathetic expression on his face.

    Dickbag.

  • Lunch Meat

    (Of course it’s necessary for to be reading the Bible for yourself so you will know when you are being bamboozled by a wolf in sheep’s clothing – a heretic.)

    Thanks. I majored in Bible, I know Greek, and I read every day.

    The postmodern church attempts to bring love to the world without at the same time bringing the Truth which is Jesus.  That is no Gospel.  That is no Saviour.  The postmodern church plays cafeteria Christianity, abiding by those Scriptures they “like,” while discarding those they find unsavory.

    You are either misinformed or lying. You have heard things about “the postmodern church.” I am a member of one. I wish you would not talk about things you only know secondhand, are not willing to experience for yourself, and can only make judgmental assumptions about. Does your church preach about stories like the rape of the Levite’s concubine in Judges 19, or Jephthah’s sacrifice of his daughter? Or do they ignore them? We read those stories and struggle with them. They were never brought up in the conservative church I grew up. Yeah, in theory we “believed” in them, but if you act like they don’t exist, what’s the difference between that and discarding them?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Baby Parts for SaleA batch of eyes by UPS – 30 livers by FedExBy J. C. Willke, MD
    After fighting abortion for 30 years I thought I had seen and heard it all, but not so. Here is a new development, a coordinated high-tech industry functioning for the specific purpose of obtaining and selling high-quality fetal organs for research.
    Partial-Birth abortions seemed to be so horrible that most of us wondered how such procedures could be defended. Many of us chalked it up to the fact that the pro-abortion advocates and the abortion industry didn’t want to give one inch for fear that their whole house of cards will fold. I, among others, felt that their resistance to forbidding this gruesome procedure was a fear of a domino effect. If we stopped this one, then we’d stop the next and the next and the next and they didn’t want it to start. But now we have evidence of a very clear additional reason why they want these late-term abortions to continue. The reason is that this is the one method that gives them intact fetal bodies from which they can obtain organs for research.
    The other method of late-term abortion, D&E (Dilatation and Evacuation), involves reaching up into the uterus and dismembering the live baby. This delivers pieces of macerated organs that are usually unsuitable for fetal research, transplantation etc. This may be the main reason for their vehement defense of the practice of Partial-Birth abortion.
    The story was broken recently by Life Dynamics under the guidance of its director, Mark Crutcher. A lady came to him with a story, which he has verified. The name of the informant cannot be revealed, as she is still involved in the work that she has exposed. Her story is dramatically recorded in a video just released by Life Dynamics. In it, this woman under the pseudonym, Kelly, tells her story. Her back is to the camera and her voice is electronically altered to prevent her identification. She worked for “an outside source, hired with a team to go in [to late term abortion clinics] to dissect and procure fetal tissue for high-quality sales.” Read on as Kelly describes her macabre profession. “What we did was to have a contract with an abortion clinic that would allow us to go there on certain days. We would get a generated list each day to tell us what tissue researchers, pharmaceutical companies and universities were looking for. Then we would examine the patient charts. We would screen out the ones we didn’t want.
    We did not use specimens that had STDs [sexually transmitted diseases] or fetal abnormalities. We only wanted the most perfect specimens that we could give to the researchers.” And the age of these babies? The victims were up to and over 30-weeks gestation. “We were looking for eyes, livers, brains, thymuses [lymphoid tissue], cardiac blood, cord blood, blood from the liver, even blood from the limbs.”
    Only an estimated 2% of the late-term aborted babies had abnormalities. “The rest were very healthy. 95% of the time, she was just there to get rid of the baby.” How many of the late-term – the ones around 30 weeks – would you see? “Probably 30 or 40 babies a week.”
    Kelly stated, “We would sell the tissue to private contractors. They in turn would sell to other universities and researchers. There was a high demand every week to buy such fetal tissues. It was shipped by UPS, FedEx, Airborne and sometimes by special couriers. Sometimes we would take the specimen in a box to the airport and put it on as regular cargo, to be picked up at the destination.” And did these shipping companies know they were transporting baby parts? “No. All they knew was that it was just human cells. But it could be a completely intact fetus. It might be a batch of eyes, or 30 or 40 livers going out that day, or thymuses
    And the leftover parts? “We would usually put this down the garbage disposal along with the placenta and the leftover blood material. If it was too large to go down the drain, they had a special freezer and when they accumulated 60 or 70 fetuses in one box, it would be picked up for incineration.”
    And then the obvious question. Kelly is still working for this company, so why did she come and tell this story to a pro-life group? One day when she was working, “A set of twins at 24 weeks gestation was brought to us in a pan. They were both alive. The doctor came back and said, `Got you some good specimens, twins.’ I looked at him and said, `There’s something wrong here. They are moving. I don’t do this. This is not in my contract.’ I told him I would not be part of taking their lives. So he took a bottle of sterile water and poured it in the pan until the fluid came up over their mouths and noses, letting them drown. I left the room because I could not watch this.” But she did go back and dissect them after they were dead. She said, “That’s when I decided it was wrong. I did not want to be there when that happened.” And then it happened again and again. “At 16 weeks, all the way up to sometimes even 30 weeks, and we had live births come back to us.” And then? “Then the doctor would either break the neck or take a pair of tongs and beat the fetus until it was dead.”
    Did the abortionist ever alter the procedures to get you the type of specimens you needed that day? Her answer was “Yes, before the procedures they would want to see the list of what we wanted to procure. The [abortionist] would get us the most complete, intact specimens that he could. They would be delivered to us completely intact. Sometimes the fetus appeared to be dead, but when we opened up the chest cavity, the heart was still beating.” She was asked if the type of abortion procedure was intentionally altered to deliver to you an intact specimen, even if that meant giving you a live baby? Her answer was, “Yes, that was so we could sell better tissue, so that our company would make more money. At the end of the year, they would give the clinic back more money because we got good specimens.”
    The Partial-Birth abortion procedure involves inserting seaweed laminaria into the cervix. This swells up, dilating the cervix. In 24 hours, new laminaria are inserted. This produces more swelling and dilatation so that by the third day the baby can be extracted. During the dilatation procedure she is sent to a nearby motel. Sometimes the laminaria would fall out and she would go into labor and deliver the baby. And then? “They would call the nurse, and the nurse would call the doctor who would go to the motel room and pick up the woman and the fetus. That’s when they would call us and say, `Okay, we’ve got a couple of specimens here,’ or `We’ve got one specimen.’ We would go [to the clinic] and the specimen [the baby] would be in a bucket, sometimes alive. When we opened the chest cavity the heart would still be beating. Sometimes we could see movement in the bucket. These babies had to come out alive. There’s no way for them to be coming out dead. They were all alive. How they killed them is anyone’s guess. My guess is that they had to kill them in
    the bucket or put them in a corner and let them die slowly.” And that was because the abortionist had seen how strongly you reacted to seeing them killed in front of you? “That’s correct. And he did not want to repeat those instances but they kept happening anyway, and that’s how I came to call you guys [Life Dynamics].”
    Finally, Kelly related how sometimes a woman, halfway through the dilatation procedure, would change her mind and say she did not want the abortion. In such a case they would tell her that it’s too late now. “You’re going to have the abortion.” Kelly said, “All of the staff would gather around pressuring her to have the abortion. On the second day, they’re given an IV sedation, which kind of puts them into what I call a Nyquil nap. They’re just basically drowsy, not thinking for themselves and that’s basically how they are coerced into continuing the procedure.”
    Finally, in the interview, she notes that many of the employees of the clinics were lesbians. When the mother was unconscious these women would discuss her genitalia with degrading remarks and on occasion even take the phone number off of her chart. Then they would “call her weeks down the road and ask her out for a date. It was not uncommon for women or men at the clinic to hit on these women for dates.”
    Now We Know Why
    Now we know one of the major reasons why the abortion industry is fighting so intensely to prevent a ban on Partial-Birth abortion from being enacted. It’s more than not giving any ground on abortion for any reason. It’s also because selling fetal parts is a very lucrative part of the abortion business. These mothers pay large sums of money for late-term abortions and the abortionists in turn are given big money for these intact organs. The model specimens have to be: the bigger – the better; the older – the better; the more alive – the better.
    The above dialogue is from a video that has been produced by Life Dynamics. If any of our readers would like a free copy of this interview, while quantities last, feel free to contact us and we will send you a copy. Send your request to: Life Issues Institute, 1721 W. Galbraith Rd, Cincinnati, OH 45239. Phone (513) 729-3600. Fax (513) 729-3636. E-mail lifeissues@aol.com

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Shame on you.

  • EllieMurasaki

    I’m pretty sure Dr. Tiller didn’t, and the only remaining late-term abortion provider in the United States doesn’t, do thirty abortions a week. There simply are not that many women who need a late-term abortion and who are capable of traveling to the doctor who’ll do the procedure.

    Hey, since you’re back. In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what should be the penalty for a woman who gets one?

    Also, I thought you’d left. Why didn’t you stay gone?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    cuz I knew you missed me, Ellie.   

  • EllieMurasaki

    Uh-huh. In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what should be the penalty for a woman who gets one?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino
  • P J Evans

     TL;DR

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    The idea of “brain waves” is ambiguous. Even a single neuron has electrical impulse “brain waves” but they are too small to register on a EEG or MEG. (seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography which discusses this exact point). It’s a function of the threshold attainable in our measuring, not the ‘humanness’ of the infant.
    So let’s say it another way. Life begins at conception. Well what kind of life is it? Is it a fish, or dog? No. It’s a new human being. At conception, the zygote has 23 pairs of chromosomes and approximately 50,000 genes from each parent, which combine to determine all of one’s physical characteristics, including sex, facial features, body type, and color of hair, eyes, and skin. It has the potential to be a fully functional, independent person only needing time and nourishment to attain that.
    Now you may be able to impose some artificial definition of ‘human’ to escape that reality or make your conscience feel better when it begins taking on the role of God. I choose to let Him be the judge as to when a ‘soul’ is created and if I err, it will be on the side of life.
    And, as far as your illustration is concerned about Consciousness/brain waves determining human life. Let’s imagine your child was in an accident and sustained a head injury and lost all ‘brain waves’. You were about to have them ‘pull the plug’. Just before that happens, the doctor rushes in and tells you that a major medical breakthru has just been achieved and a new machine will be able to restore your child’s “brain wave/consciousness” and will arrive at the hospital in a couple of weeks.
    Are you going to use your criteria and figure the child is not ‘human’ or are you going to wait for the machine?

  • EllieMurasaki

    It has the potential to be a fully functional, independent person only needing time and nourishment to attain that.

    I have the potential to be president of the United States. It’d be really fucking stupid to treat me as though I already am.

    if I err, it will be on the side of life.

    So are adult women not alive or not human?

    In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what should be the penalty for a woman who has an abortion?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Hey, El, why is it that when a pregnant woman is murdered and her unborn baby also dies, the one who committed the crime is tried for a double homicide?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Because that gives them an excuse to throw a heavier book at the killer. Also because ending a pregnancy against the will of the woman–and one must presume that, since she died too, she did not want the incident to happen–is exactly as appalling as forcing a pregnancy to continue against the will of the woman.

    In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what should be the penalty for a woman who has an abortion?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    why is it that when a pregnant woman is murdered and her unborn baby
    also dies, the one who committed the crime is tried for a double homicide?

    That isn’t reliably true, actually, though there have been some famous cases of it.

    Not that I expect facts to matter much in this discussion, but in case others are interested: there’s a Federal law along those lines (the “Unborn Victims of Violence” act) but it only applies to Federal crimes, like terrorism, which murder isn’t. Some states have similar laws that do cover murder, others don’t.

    In other words, it happens when it happens because there’s a specific law that it violates, and in most jurisdictions that law explicitly states that it doesn’t apply more generally to acts that terminate the development of a fetus (or “kill an unborn baby,” if you prefer that language).

    Some people endorse applying to fetuses the normal legal protections that apply to people. This would make terminating a fetus a crime, not because of a special law like the UVVA, but as a natural consequence of existing laws against murder.

    Do you endorse that?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Looks like there are parallels between abortion and slavery; if you think abortion is ok then you must agree also with slavery.
    Slavery in centuries past and abortions in this century were defended and promoted by the same arguments. Consider the case in the USA: In 1857, in the Dred Scott case, the US Supreme Court decided, by a 7 to 2 majority, that according to the U S Constitution, black people were not legal persons. They were the property of the owner. He could buy, or sell, or even kill them. Abolitionists had objected. The ruling was outrageous, they said. It was immoral and discriminated against an entire class of living persons solely on the basis of skin color. But those who supported slavery argued that if those who had a moral objection to slavery, didn’t have to own slaves. No one was forcing them to own slaves. But they also said: “Don’t force your morality on the slave owner. He has the right to choose to own slaves if he wishes.”
    In a very similar decision just over one hundred years later, in 1973, in the Roe vs Wade Decision, the US Supreme Court decided that according to the US Constitution, by the same 7 to 2 majority, that unborn people were not legal persons. They had no civil rights, no human rights and were therefore, legally the property of the owner (the mother). She had the absolute legal right to keep or destroy her unborn baby. Pro-life people objected. The ruling was outrageous, they said. It was immoral and discriminated against an entire class of living people solely on the basis of age (too young) and place of residence (the womb). But those who support abortion argue that those who have a moral objection to abortion, don’t have to have abortions. The pro-abortionists say: “No one is forcing you to have an abortion. But don’t force your morality on the mother. She has a right to choose to kill her developing baby if she wishes.”
    Abraham Lincoln in the 19th century said: “No one has the right to do what is wrong.” Liberty is the freedom to do that which is right.
    This country has just ended discrimination based on race. Are we now going to start discrimination on the basis of age? Saying:”I’m older than you, I’m bigger than you, I have a voice – therefore I can kill you.”

  • EllieMurasaki

    Looks like there are parallels between abortion and slavery; if you think abortion is ok then you must agree also with slavery.

    I oppose forcing someone to use her body for the sole benefit of someone else (if ‘someone’ is a pronoun that can apply to a fetus, which is after all not yet a person), and that makes me a slavery advocate? What is the logic here I do not understand.

    In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what should be the penalty for a woman who gets an abortion?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    El, you do not engage your brain to think.  You are hopeless, and I pity you.  Never the twain shall meet.

  • P J Evans

    You are hopeless, and I pity you.  Never the twain shall meet.

    Speaking for yourself, I see.

  • EllieMurasaki

    I do not endorse or condone forcing anyone to anything. This includes enduring pregnancy as surely as it includes ending pregnancy or laboring without pay. I support legal abortion for the very same reason that I oppose any form of slavery.

    In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what should be the penalty for a woman who gets an abortion?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    If I generated a list of features that pale-skinned adults typically demonstrate by virtue of which I consider them worthy of special treatment compared to, say, cows or trees or rocks, it would surprise me to discover features on that list that dark-skinned adults don’t typically demonstrate.

    I conclude, therefore, that pale-skinned adults are morally entitled to the same special treatment as dark-skinned adults.

    The same is not true of fetuses.

    Do you endorse applying to fetuses the normal legal protections that apply to people?

  • http://heathencritique.wordpress.com/ Ruby_Tea

    This Ginny person isn’t big on answering questions, is she?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     > This Ginny person isn’t big on answering questions, is she?

    You win the “Understatement of the Week” award. They don’t even pretend to answer with the usual obfuscating fog. It’s kind of odd, really.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Slavery is about stealing and destroying someone’s freedom, happiness and future for the sake of one’s own personal agenda.  It’s about thinking that we’re superior, more valuable and more entitled than the ones subject to us.  To justify such oppression, we try to dehumanize the oppressed – they are not humans, they have no rights, they are not persons, they do not deserve equality with us.
    Abortion is about stealing and destroying someone’s freedom, happiness and future for the sake of one’s own personal agenda.  It’s about thinking that we’re superior, more valuable and more entitled than the ones subject to us.  To justify such oppression, we try to dehumanize the oppressed – they are not humans, they have no rights, they are not persons, they do not deserve equality with us. 
    Even if we look at the general rhetoric of pro-choicers, it mirrors that of the slavery supporters:
    Blacks are not persons, therefore they have no rights.  Fetuses are not persons, therefore they have no rights.

    If you don’t like slavery, don’t own slaves, but don’t tell me what I can and can’t do.  This is a free nation.  If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one, but don’t tell me what I can and can’t do.  This is a free nation.  We are not ready for such extensive protection of human rights – the pragmatic needs of whites come before the rights of the blacks.  We are not ready for such extensive protection of human rights – the pragmatic needs of the society come before the rights of the unborn.If I did not own slaves, I would have more responsibilities and as such, I wouldn’t be able to follow my heart, career or academic ambitions.If I did not have abortions, I would have so many new responsibilities and as such, I wouldn’t be able to follow my heart, career or academic ambitions.Today we find these pro-slavery arguments to be patently absurd and we find ourselves asking – How could have something like this have ever been possible. 

  • EllieMurasaki

    Abortion is about stealing and destroying someone’s freedom, happiness and future for the sake of one’s own personal agenda.

    You know, you’re absolutely right. How dare someone force anyone to be a parent against their will?

    In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what should be the penalty for a woman who gets an abortion?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Not to mention the folks out there arguing that rocks and trees aren’t persons. Who are, on your account, just like slavery proponents, since they argue that something isn’t a person.

    If I generate a list of features that pale-skinned adults typically demonstrate by virtue of which I consider them worthy of special treatment compared to, say, cows or trees or rocks, it would surprise me to discover features on that list that dark-skinned adults don’t typically demonstrate. I conclude, therefore, that pale-skinned adults are morally entitled to the same special treatment as dark-skinned adults. That’s my reasoning for opposing slavery.

    If I generate a list of features that adults typically demonstrate by virtue of which I consider them worthy of special treatment compared to, say, cows or trees or rocks, it would not surprise me to discover features on that list that fetuses don’t typically demonstrate. I conclude, therefore, that adults are morally entitled to different treatment than fetuses.

    Do you believe fetuses are morally entitled to the same treatment as adults?

    Do you endorse applying to fetuses the normal legal protections that apply to people?

  • Ursula L

    Abortion is about stealing and destroying someone’s freedom, happiness and future for the sake of one’s own personal agenda.  It’s about thinking that we’re superior, more valuable and more entitled than the ones subject to us.  To justify such oppression, we try to dehumanize the oppressed – they are not humans, they have no rights, they are not persons, they do not deserve equality with us. 

    Okay, magic wand, let’s call a fetus a person.

    When does one person have the right to use another person’s body or organs for their own medical good and survival, against the other’s will?

    Please give your answer in a way that does not distinguish between people (donor or recipient) on the basis of sex or age, and that does not treat a uterus as different from any other major organ.  

    Because unless I can claim your kidney or liver section or blood or other body part, for my own survival, without your consent, people cannot use another person’s body for their own survival without the other person’s consent.  

    And an acquaintance of mine recently died because her kidney transplant came to late.  

    Any pro-life policy regarding the use of other people’s bodies and organs needs to consider the needs of all people requiring the use of other people’s bodies and organs for survival, not merely those in the first three-quarters of a year after conception.  

    ***

    Plus, my grandmother died in childbirth.  What right did my aunt have to take my grandmother’s life for her own survival?  

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Abortion is performed with willful intent.  Your aunt had no intention of killing her mother in utero!  You are totally out of control with your reasoning, or, realistically, the lack thereof.  

  • EllieMurasaki

    No one having an abortion is doing it to kill their baby. They’re doing it to stop being pregnant and to not have to parent a(nother) child.

    In a jurisdiction in which abortion is legally murder, what penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Um, your buddy was telling us about her aunt (the unborn baby being carried) that killed her own mother (the mother doing the carrying) during childbirth.  Convoluted non-logical thinking much?  The baby most certainly did not willingly, knowingly kill her own mother while giving birth to her.    

  • EllieMurasaki

    And nobody willingly knowingly kills a baby when getting an abortion; that is the unfortunate side effect of ending the pregnancy. (This must make sense, because it’s the same logic Catholics use to defend the perceived necessity of removing a woman’s whole fallopian tube rather than just the bit with the implanted embryo.) It’s really much easier if you just acknowledge that it’s not a baby till it’s born, but if you’re determined to hold that false belief, the woman is still at least as important as the baby and nobody but that woman has the right to decide whether primacy goes to her or to the baby.

    In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion?

  • Ursula L

    Abortion is performed with willful intent.  Your aunt had no intention of killing her mother in utero!  You are totally out of control with your reasoning, or, realistically, the lack thereof.  

    So intent is the issue?

    So if someone who is mentally ill and not  intending  to kill fires a machine gun into a crowd, they should be allowed to do it, and to continue to do it even when everyone around them knows that they are killing people, simply because they did not intend to kill?

    They are killing.  

    Just as my aunt did kill.  

    Her intent is quite irrelevant to her deadly action.  

    And my grandmother knew, from the advice of her doctors when my mother was born, that another pregnancy would kill her, as it did.  

    Intent isn’t magic.

    And my grandmother should have had the right to protect her own life, against any person, in the same way that anyone has the right to self-protection from lethal threats.  

    You aren’t arguing for equal rights for fetuses.  

    You’re arguing that fetuses have the legal right to commit negligent manslaughter, at the very least, if not murder, and that women don’t have the right to protect themselves from negligent manslaughter or murder.

    When everyone else has the legal and moral obligation not to commit negligent manslaughter, and the right to protect themselves from potentially deadly negligence and threats by others.  

    By your argument, fetuses aren’t people, with the same rights and responsibilities of all other people.  They’re beings with the right to kill others, to force organ “donation” against the donor’s will, to move through the world without any consideration of the life or health or safety or well-being of people around them.  

    By your definition, fetuses aren’t people.

    They’re monsters, murdering with impunity for the sake of their own survival.  

    ***

    To be clear, I 100% believe that my grandmother should have had the right to choose risk her life in order to give birth to my aunt.

    I also believe, 100%, that she is the only person with the right to decide to risk her life for the sake of the life of my aunt.  Your hypothetical look at the situation does not trump her experience of the deadly risk she was facing.  

    But my grandmother had no choice.  

    She had no access to birth control that she could independently control, no legal right to say “no” to sex with my grandfather because she wanted to avoid becoming pregnant and dying,  no way to have him charged with rape when he did have sex with her if she didn’t want it because she knew sex would lead to pregnancy and pregnancy would kill her and she didn’t want to die,  no access to safe abortion to treat what was, in her situation, a terminal medical condition called “pregnancy”, and no way to prioritize the care of the child she already had (my mother) in relation to the care of the child she had the potential to have (my aunt.) 

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • EllieMurasaki

    Nice graphics. What does this have to do with what the penalty should be for a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • AliciaB

    I think indefinite confinement in the comments section of a Youtube video is probably too savage a penalty. 

  • Carstonio

     And what should the penalty be for a woman who attempts to seek abortion in such a jurisdiction?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Ideally there wouldn’t be any such jurisdictions, but I want to know Ginny Bain Allen’s response to the question. She wants there to be such jurisdictions, therefore she must have an answer to the question of what happens to the people who violate that law.

  • Carstonio

     No argument there. I was making the same point you were, and expanding on it. Elsewhere, the arguments I’ve heard for not prosecuting the mothers sound repulsively paternalistic. As if the only reason a woman wouldn’t want to be a mother is because she’s been manipulated and deceived by abortion profiteers. The last part doesn’t even make sense – I would think such doctors would find regular prenatal visits to be far more lucrative than one-time procedures.

  • AnonymousSam

    Let alone procedures which bring them infamy, and in some cases, a distinct possibility of being murdered.

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • AnonymousSam

    To quote Claudia of the FriendlyAtheist blog,

    One can and should absolutely condemn the deplorable sexism that is the basis of sexual selection. However simply banning a given motivation, no matter how deplorable, will accomplish nothing. All it will do is teach pregnant women to lie to their doctors about their motivations. The solution is the much longer and harder path of improving education on the subject.

  • EllieMurasaki

    In an ideal world, any woman anywhere would be able to get an abortion, no waiting, no notification of or consent needed from the girl’s parents or the babydaddy, and other than the questions necessary to establish that she is aborting because she wants to end the pregnancy or because her health requires that she end the pregnancy (not because someone is coercing her into ending the pregnancy and not because she wants a baby but feels her life circumstances mean she cannot have one; in either such situation, the appropriate response is to get her the help she needs to have the baby she wants), no questions asked. Yes, this means a lot of abortions will occur because the woman didn’t like the answer she got when she asked the shape of the fetus’s genitalia. That sucks, but once she has decided she wants a sex-selective abortion, we should have no way to prevent her from getting one.

    If you don’t like sex-selective abortion, you need to be working to end the culture in which male children are valued more than female children. Also the culture in which unwanted pregnancy is possible and the culture in which it is possible for a woman to want her pregnancy but be financially unable to raise [another] child, but as this is an abortion discussion, that goes without saying.

    In a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder, what should be the penalty for a woman who gets one?

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • Ginny Bain Allen

    http://www.youtube.com/user/cslewisweb

    The Magician’s Twin: C.S. Lewis and the Case against Scientism

    Gnaw on this a while.

  • EllieMurasaki

    What has any of that to do with what the penalty should be for a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Imagine that, Ellie responding immediately!  It certainly has a lot to do with your question.  A LOT!  Engage your brain, Ells.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    That sort of patronizing behavior is unbecoming.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Care to explain what exactly your videos (which, if you want me to know what’s in them, you will summarize, because I’m leaving for work soon and I can’t Youtube at work) have to do with what the penalty should be for a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder? Or, hey, explain why you persist in ignoring my question.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     I bet she’d stop asking the question if you answered it.

    Me too, come to that.

    Do you believe fetuses are morally entitled to the same treatment as adults?

    Do you endorse applying to fetuses the normal legal protections that apply to people?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    ‎”Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be – That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks – for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation – for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war – for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed – for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted – for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.”
    –George Washington, 1789

  • EllieMurasaki

    Know what I want to be thankful for? You finally answering what you think the justice system should do to a woman who gets an abortion somewhere it’s legally murder.

  • P J Evans

     I’d be thankful for her getting a clue that she doesn’t get to run anything bigger than her own personal life.

    (I’m really thankful for having a job I like that pays enough to live on.)

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Abraham Lincoln’s Thanksgiving Proclamation

    Happy Thanksgiving from The Heritage Foundation! As we celebrate and give thanks today, we invite you to read President Abraham Lincoln’s 1863 Thanksgiving Proclamation below.The year that is drawing toward its close has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added which are of so extraordinary a nature that they can not fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever-watchful providence of Almighty God.In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign states to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere, except in the theater of military conflict, while that theater has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union.Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defense have not arrested the plow, the shuttle, or the ship; the ax has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well as the iron and coal as of our precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege, and the battlefield, and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently, and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and one voice, by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow-citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens.And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the imposition of the Almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it, as soon as may be consistent with the divine purpose, to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility, and union.

  • P J Evans

     TL; DR

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    The Washington Times
    Forgetting the holy; The Feast of the Intransitive Verb
    Published Thursday, November 25, 1999.
    By Kevin “Seamus” Hasson

    Every fourth Thursday in November work and school are canceled so that families can gather together for the day and thank – well, we’ll get to just who it is they may be thanking in a minute. They also enjoy good food, good company and good football. The holiday is currently called Thanksgiving, although there is reason to think that may have to change.
    Just about every other religious holiday has been stripped of its original meaning and transformed into a more secular version of its former self. Why should Thanksgiving be any different? In Pittsburgh, Christmas and Hanukkah morphed into “Sparkle Season” and then disintegrated further into “Downtown Pittsburgh Sparkles.” Public school systems across the country are renaming the Easter Bunny the “Special Bunny.” Even Halloween is being transformed out of concern for its rampant religiosity. In many places it is now the “Fall Festival Celebration.” Surely Thanksgiving, a state-sanctioned holiday that purports to give the nation a day to thank God, cannot withstand the small, furious army of radical secularists determined to take the “holy” out of our holidays. A day set aside to thank God can hardly be appropriate when the celebration of Christmas, Hanukkah and even Halloween has become taboo. Something will have to be done.
    So I have a modest proposal: Let’s practice truth-in-labeling and call the November holiday that was formerly Thanksgiving, “The Feast of the Intransitive Verb.” Intransitive verbs, as we all remember from those unpleasant days of diagramming sentences in grammar school, are verbs that do not require an object. Verbs in sentences like “The horse ran” and “The wind blows” are intransitive because the horse doesn’t have to run anything or the wind blow anything. They can simply run and blow without any object at all. Well, what about the verb “to thank”? It’s supposed to have an object. You can’t just sit there and “thank.” You have to thank someone. Which is why secularists don’t use that word much in late November anymore. Their creed requires them to celebrate the day by being grateful while thanking no one. And it’s embarrassing to have to choose between being politically and grammatically correct. So secularists prefer the circumlocution “to give thanks.” It doesn’t require an object. You can get away with “giving thanks” without having to be grateful to anyone in particular. It’s much more comfortable that way. Thank whomever you want. Or, don’t thank anyone; it’s entirely up to you. Either way you can still “give thanks.” That’s the beauty of using an intransitive verb; it doesn’t need any object.
    Of course, once the object of our gratitude is out of the way it’s all downhill. The rest of the day is uncommonly easy to secularize. It has none of the outward trappings of a religious holiday. There are no babes in mangers or symbolic candles to remove from courthouse steps. No one is ringing church bells that require silencing or allowing children to hunt for eggs that must be renamed. The staples of Thanksgiving – turkeys, cornucopias and pumpkin pies – in and of themselves present no real threat to the secularist ascendancy. And the football games are an absolute godsend (so to speak) for secularists. After all, the more distracted we all are the easier it is to forget about the one to whom we owe gratitude.
    So let’s hear it for the Feast of the Intransitive Verb. It’s a worthy companion to “Sparkle Season” (formerly known as Christmas), “Special Person Day” (previously St. Valentine’s Day), and the “Spring Festival,” which was once Easter. Of course, if all this isn’t agreeable to you, if it all seems just a little bit extreme, or even if you’re just worried that turkey and cranberries may never taste the same again, you could always
    be a thumb in the eye of the radical secularists. You could insist on thanking God, and not settle for
    generically “giving thanks.” You could tell your neighbors that you’re grateful to God for all He’s done for
    you. You could even go so far as to tell your children to do the same – to make sure that amidst all the
    construction paper turkeys they fashion in school they get the message across that they, too, are thanking
    God.
    Defending the public integrity of our holidays is not just petulance. Cultures are built, and eroded, by a
    succession of public acts both great and small. Everything from the arts we exhibit to the table manners we
    display makes a difference in building up or wearing down our culture. Public holiday celebrations are
    particularly potent engines of culture – which is why the secularists have poured so much energy into
    changing ours. Pittsburgh’s “sparkle season,” for example, has done great damage, not only to Christmas in
    Pennsylvania, but to our culture nationally. But the fight is far from over. So this weekend enlist in the
    culture war and thank God.
    Kevin J. “Seamus” Hasson is the president emeritus of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Does the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty concern itself in any way with the religious liberty of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, Hellenic Reconstructionists, vodouisantes, atheists, and none-of-the-aboves?
    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is murder?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Too bad you can’t ask the Colonists and Founding Fathers that, Ellie.  They were not at all interested in the religious liberty of any but Christians.  This was purposed to be “dedicated this CONTINENT TO GOD AND THE ADVANCEMENT OF CHRISTIANITY.”  Expressed in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Virginia Charter, Mayflower Compact, Connecticut Orders, Massachusetts Charter, seals of cities, and documents of the first 200 years.  Harvard, too, was founded 16 years after the Plymouth landing “for the propitiation of the faith.”  America was NEVER INTENDED TO PROMOTE any other faith but Christianity.
     
    Of the 56 signatories of the Declaration of Independence, only Franklin and Jefferson were deists, but their concept of God was definitely aligned with Scripture.  Two of 56 does not a majority make.  In The Treaty of Tripoli, where Adams and Congress stated America is not a Christian nation, this was said to assure the Muslims that we would not attack them as they supposed Christians would do.  It is erroneously interpreted to deny our Christian heritage and roots.  Instead, it was intended to assure peace could reign despite religious differences.
     
    Furthermore, Congress PUBLISHED Bibles, decreed all business open with prayer and paid for a chaplain.  There is not even a shred of a doubt that we were Christians from the very first boatload.
     
    You want to make Christianity compatible to all the other “friendly faiths,” do ya now, Ellie?  That is impossible.  Christianity is NOT A FRIENDLY FAITH.  It is exclusive, hostile, incompatible with all other beliefs.  This is because it is the Truth, and the other faiths are the counterfeits.  Lies can never be in agreement with Truth, no matter how lovely they seem.  Examine the last time you were deceived and consider how you felt about it.  You should understand why “religious liberty of counterfeits” actually harms the liberty of Christianity.
     
    We can be personally amicable with people of different views and beliefs, but we cannot meld their opposing ideas to ours, any more than one would mix lambs among wolves.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Christianity is NOT A FRIENDLY FAITH. It is exclusive, hostile, incompatible with all other beliefs. This is because it is the Truth, and the other faiths are the counterfeits. Lies can never be in agreement with Truth, no matter how lovely they seem. Examine the last time you were deceived and consider how you felt about it. You should understand why “religious liberty of counterfeits” actually harms the liberty of Christianity.

    And you and all the Christians like you can fuck right off. Say, to Mars. You can set up your own colony there and infringe on absolutely nobody’s rights to life, liberty, religious liberty, bodily integrity, and pursuit of happiness, and meanwhile the rest of us (including sensible Christians as well as all the varieties of not-Christian) will be here enjoying the religious liberty that you would be screaming for were it actually denied to you the way you want to deny it to us.

    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    In our once great nation, we enjoy freedom due to Christianity!  Everything good in your life was/is made possible by Christianity!

  • AnonymousSam

    I think you may be missing the part where Christianity has been used to justify slavery, the rich oppressing the poor, and now the control of a woman’s body and sexuality by elderly white rich men who have taken a vow of chastity — all matters which are now illegal, and yet are bitterly fought against by people calling themselves Christians.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You are showing your idiocy yet again, Sammie.

  • AnonymousSam

    Ad hominem and out the other.

  • Lori

    Are you high Ginny? Whatever you’re on you should probably cut back.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I am high on Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords!  I will never cut back!  My aim is to become more and more like Him with each passing day!  Yeah, I’m a bigot for Jesus Christ!

  • Lori

     

    I am high on Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords!  

    Yeah, that’s a a tough addiction all right. I wish you luck finding a good 12 step program for your substance abuse.

  • EllieMurasaki

    And yet any suggestion that the United States behave as though its nonChristian citizens are individually of equal importance with its individual Christian citizens gets a vehement response that can be boiled down to FUCK NO.

    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder? And how is her life better if she is denied the abortion due to conservative Christian activism and then she has to attempt to raise a third child on a household income that barely covered herself and two children, or then she has to stick with her rapist because he’s got the income that supports the kid, or then she dies like Savita did in Ireland?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Girl, Obama will hook ’em up with all his promised freebies!

  • EllieMurasaki

    So what are you doing to support and to influence the government to support families with more children than money, victims of domestic violence, and people with nasty health problems that mean the pregnancy can’t safely be carried to term? And what are you doing to support and to influence the government to support measures such as taking ‘in God we trust’ off the currency and ‘under God’ out of the Pledge (thus ensuring that people who don’t believe in a single masculine deity are not implicitly excluded from affirming citizenship nor forced to participate in religiously-flavored cash transactions)?

    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    That is what we Christians did here! With great suffering, sacrifice, and purpose.  The settlement at Jamestown lost a fourth of their colony.  Every death from Indian attack,
    dysentary, malnutrition, freezing weather, had to be secretly buried outside the fort, so the Indians wouldn’t know their true numbers diminished.  At one point, they were headed out of the harbor, ready to give up, when they met a ship of supplies, and actually turned back!
     
    You have to visit the Tower of London, to hear how dissenters were impaled outside the gate as a strong witness not to cross the King, and the hundreds of bodies secretly buried under the chapel floor.  Or, read the diaries of those persecuted for owning a Bible, all over Europe.  You see, the Christianity you prefer was taught in churches according to the heads of state in agreement with clergy.  It was forbidden to know for yourself what the Bible says
    lest you learn the truth.
     
    No, the brave ones who colonized here, tragically left loved ones behind, suffered long bumpy voyages, eating wormy biscuits, just to live free here.  Free of atheists, secularists, Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists.  They not only wanted their niche to worship their God, but for you to have it, too.  Your legacy was blood-bought by the apostles of Jesus, and the colonists of America.
     
    But, you are not understanding this, quite.  You have a home the way you want it to be.  What if Atheists and Muslims came to your property to tell you what is banned, what to wear, eat, how many wives your husband must have, and how much to pay them?  Look unto history, for that is what they did in the past, and that is what they say they intend to do in America.  They have landed.  They are already here!
     
    You want us to colonize Mars?  Why can’t we just defend our turf?  It is our legacy, blood-bought for us.  Anyone who wants what we have, can earn it by going to Mars, instead.  We don’t mind if they want to go.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Free of atheists, secularists, Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists.  

    Not surprised that someone who doesn’t think Fred is Christian wants to exclude me from the tribe too.

    Followed immediately by They not only wanted their niche to worship their God, but for you to have it, too.

    The cognitive dissonance, it burns!

  • EllieMurasaki

    Not surprised that someone who doesn’t think Fred is Christian wants to exclude me from the tribe too.

    Followed immediately by They not only wanted their niche to worship their God, but for you to have it, too.

    Let’s not forget that this land was occupied when white folk got here. Mars? If it were occupied by anything larger than a bacterium, we’d have noticed by now. Probably would have noticed the bacteria, too.

  • P J Evans

     All those people at Jamestown and Plymouth who died in the early years? it wasn’t for lack of God, it was because they were ignorant of the weather and the land where they were living. And in the case of Jamestown, they also set up their colony in the middle of the worst drought in centuries.

    Your ignorance is monumental. Please build your monument somewhere else.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    That is what we Christians did here!

    Who are you calling “we”, kemosabe?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Free of atheists, secularists, Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk

    I guess you didn’t watch that, did you?

  • AnonymousSam

    And yet, regardless, the very first amendment added to the Constitution was one in which they stated, unequivocally, that the United States was not to be considered a Christian country. They wrote religion right out of the lawbooks.

    It’s also worth noting that Christianity mandates abortion in cases of adultery. Christianity is indeed a hard faith, isn’t it, considering how often it contradicts itself.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    For you to say Christianity contradicts itself clearly shows your lack of understanding.  You are wrong about this not being a Christian country.  WRONG!

  • Beroli

     

    You are wrong about this not being a Christian country.  WRONG!

    And clearly anyone who would suggest your logic skills are lacking has not observed your mastery of the “Because I say so!” school of argument.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    History declares our nation to be Christian, genius!  I don’t have to!  Educate yourself about history – His story – the way it really happened!

  • Lori

     History, from the French histoire, meaning story.

    The masculine pronoun, has nothing to do with it. The capitalized masculine pronoun intended to indicate (one idea about) God certainly has nothing to do with it.

    You Ginny, are a very poorly educated person.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You, ma’am, don’t know me from Adam.

  • AnonymousSam

    Separation of church and state? Congress to make no laws respecting the establishment of religion? These concepts were the very first thing voted upon by the body who signed the Constitution, which means every single one of those Christians who participated in the signing of that document immediately turned around and made a law for themselves which prohibited turning this into a Christian country (individual Christian states did spring up, but the country, as a whole, no). They knew Britain, and knew what it was like to live in a country where the national religion could be used to bludgeon one’s freedoms. They specifically wrote that out of this one.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Please educate yourself, Sammie.  You are misguided by our corrupt society, but you choose to believe such tomfoolery.  You choose it because you do not want to be held accountable by your Almighty Creator!  You choose it because you do not want to live for Him and others.  You choose it because you want to live for yourself!  Btw, how deeply are you delving into pornography?

  • AnonymousSam

    Quite deeply, thank you. Let me quote from my favorite hardcore short story:

    She engaged in prostitution while she was still mine; and she lusted after her lovers… She gave herself as a prostitute to all the elite… defiled herself with all the idols of everyone she lusted after. She did not give up the prostitution… when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her. … There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.

    Familiar with that one? It’s an excerpt from the Bible.

    I was created by my mother and father. If you want to bring your version of God into this, please ask him why he gave me Antisocial Personality Disorder. I’ve always wondered what benefit to myself or anyone else that was meant to have.

    There’s a better argument to be made for my having been reincarnated than having been sprung from the ether. I share the name of a man who died just a few years before my birth, who foretold his own rebirth after an interim between lives. Unfortunately, that man was a crackpot, so this isn’t as neat as it sounds.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    How ludicrous for you to blame God with your Antisocial Personality Disorder.  Our society is breeding folks such as yourself at an alarming rate, but that’s to be expected when God has been thrown under the bus, and everyone is looking out for numero uno.  Take a good long look in the mirror, Sammie!

  • AnonymousSam

    Who precisely should I hold at fault for it? While there’s evidence for a genetic predisposition for many mental illnesses, it’s generally agreed upon that genetics don’t play a sole role in conferring them upon people. “Nature and nurture” is what most psychologists cite, but in my case, ah… I’m not sure you want to go there.

    My parents had issues, but did, at least initially, do their best to raise me very well. Although they were atheists, they gave me the freedom to visit church and Sunday school and never questioned my decisions regarding such. I grew up as a Christian, albeit not a very good one. I was a terror in school when I didn’t get my way. Nowadays, I can look back on then and realize that I was showing the markers for Conduct Disorder, which is the pre-teen version of APD (differentiated from APD in that most psychologists agree that because the personality is still being shaped during this time, what holds true at age 8 is not necessarily going to be true at age 18).

    The signs of developing APD were always there, regardless of how well I was raised. What caused Conduct Disorder to develop into full-fledged APD was a long series of years of abuse, harassment, terrorizing behavior and violence, much of which perpetrated by people calling themselves Christians. I had a family member die with needless pain and humiliation, stripped of every last ounce of dignity by the ravages of a failing body, and when God didn’t answer my questions about this, I started asking the people I knew why it happened. They didn’t like questions.

    You strike me as a woman who doesn’t like questions either.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Yeah, usually, when someone has been diagnosed with mental illness, in all actuality, it’s more like mental WILLness.

  • Lori

    You know nothing about mental illness Ginny and you really, really need to not talk about it.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I know plenty about mental WILLness.  PLENTY.  It’s usually people’s own destructive choices that put them there!

  • AnonymousSam

    No, that would be your belief in the Just World fallacy which causes you to seek justification for the things which happen to people. You want to feel that you have God’s approval when good things (or a lack of bad things) happen to you and to thus have God’s permission to pass judgment onto others who experience ills.

    It’s extraordinarily shallow of you to dismiss mental illnesses as being a charade of choice and consequence. Clearly you’ve never seen people suffering from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorders which keep them from even leaving the house, or Schizophrenics who’ve starved to death because they suffered from catatonia and went into a rigid state from which they never recovered. Clearly you’ve never seen people whose depression was so unyielding, so absolute, that they had to receive electroshock therapy until the minute damage dealt to their brains was enough to alter their neurotransmitter activity to give them relief.

    I may not be the only sociopath here.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I did not say all diagnosed with mental illness are suffering due to their destructive choices, but I believe most are.  Even chemical imbalances in the brain can be caused by one’s choices, such as pornography.  The folks I know that are Schizophrenic brought it upon themselves due to taking LSD.  Those with OCD can get help with meds and therapy, if they admit they need help and seek it.  Our bodies, minds, emotions and spirits are so conjoined that when one part is being destructively tampered with, all parts suffer.  Jesus is THE answer to all ills.

  • AnonymousSam

    The criteria for a psychiatric diagnosis of pretty much any disorder tend to include that the symptoms not be caused by the physiological effects of substance or a general medical condition. I would note that in many cases, trying to whip the religion on a person with a severe disorder has made it worse. I’ve seen perfectly innocent people be driven to suicide out of guilt for their families who were hosting prayer groups for their recovery, because they felt that their failure to improve meant either (A) God was specifically cursing them, and did not want them to improve, or (B) God did not exist. Neither of these possibilities were anything they wanted to inflict upon their families, so they took the step of intentionally trying to take their own lives, even with the presumable awareness that suicide, according to their families’ beliefs, condemned oneself to Hell. At least one of them acknowledged this by stating, “At least this way, everyone will know that’s where I deserve to be, instead of having to guess why God hates me.”

    This is why I don’t like trying to tie consequences to divine influences. Sometimes things just happen. They don’t have to be deserved. Again, that’s the Just World fallacy, the belief (conscious or unconscious) that all things happen because of simple explanations which usually tie into the character of the person to which they happen. It places conditions on acceptance, forgiveness and love by forcing people in poor places to justify themselves before being willing to help them get better.

  • Lori

     

    At least one of them acknowledged this by stating, “At least this way,
    everyone will know that’s where I deserve to be, instead of having to
    guess why God hates me.”  

    That is so completely heartbreaking. No one, more matter how well-intentioned they believe themselves to be, should ever put another human being in a position to feel like that.

  • AnonymousSam

    And then the local church refuses to bury them with their family, because “Anyone so selfish as to sin against God by taking their own lives shall not defile sacred ground.”

    I do hate the Abrahamic religions sometimes, though Fred has helped me forgive the people who commit these atrocities. To wax poetic, when one wallows in spiritual squalor and fetid circumstances, they will pick up illnesses of the heart — that is to be expected of porcine houses, as their interests lay not in the souls of their brethren of the sty, but in keeping themselves fat and happy.

  • AnonymousSam

    As someone with a rather large number of credit hours in psychology, I can assure you that this is not the case. If it were, then behavioral therapy would be more effective at treating conditions like Bipolar Disorder.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Sadly, I’m quite well-acquainted with a number of folks with that label.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    God has been thrown under the bus

    Your God must not be very powerful, then.

    Either God is so powerful and so omnipresent that nothing can withstand his presence, or your God is so tiny and so incompetent that he isn’t worth spending time on.

    You can’t have it both ways, and you’re trying to in order to score rhetorical points.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Well,  folks think they have thrown God under the bus, but He has only been disguised by such God-haters.  True believers are often Wimps, because they are afraid that they will be viewed as hateful, judgmental and intolerant.  The anti-Christs among us are well aware of this and have used this to their advantage.  I am one who is NOT afraid of what those in the world think of me, and nobody can hurt me when they hurl hurtful words my way.  I will ALWAYS speak for the Truth which is Jesus!  GOD is still on the throne!  Hallelujah!  Maranatha!

  • Lori

    That’s a very impressive argument Ginny. Are you going to pull out, “I know you are, but what am I?” next? Or maybe, “I’m rubber, you’re glue” or “I’m tellin’ mom”.

  • Kiba

    You are wrong about this not being a Christian country.  WRONG!

    Treaty of Tripoli signed by President John Adams in 1795. He was also the one to submit it to the Senate.

    As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

     
    I bolded the pertinent part for you since you seem to have problems with reading. 

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    First amendment added to the Constitution was one in which they stated,
    unequivocally, that the United States was not to be considered a
    Christian country.

    Strictly speaking that was implicit in the wording of the amendment. The explicit wording is in a treaty ratified by the Senate.

  • P J Evans

     TL;DR

  • Lori

    Long or short there’s really no good reason to read, let alone reply to, an editorial published in the Moonie Times. 

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Your loss.

  • P J Evans

     Hardly. If you want to cut and paste whole speeches, and think that somehow makes it legitimate commentary, get your own blog.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I do have my own blog, P J!   :)   Sometimes, no, many times, others say things more succinctly than I and with more authority.  

  • Lori

    If you have your own blog you should stay there.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I beg your pardon.  I can go where I want.

  • Lori

    Congratulations Ginny, you have the emotional and intellectual maturity of a 6 year old.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I have the emotional and intellectual maturity of a six year old?  Me?  Uh-huh.  From every pore, you exude kindness and thoughtfulness, Lori.  

  • P J Evans

     FOAD.
    And you can’t go anywhere you want, any more than the rest of us can.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You’re right, I can’t go to heaven……..yet, as much as I want to due to the profound sadness, pain and suffering this fallen world’s human inhabitants cause me.

  • P J Evans

    The point, which you seem to be unable to understand, is that YOUR blog is where you post YOUR opinion pieces and the long speeches you seem to enjoy, and you can feel free to delete or ignore the comments you don’t like.
    HERE, it’s Fred’s blog, and you’re a guest, although you seem to think you own the place.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Every fourth Thursday in November work and school are canceled so that families can gather together for the day and thank – well, we’ll get to just who it is they may be thanking in a minute….
    Just about every other religious holiday has been stripped of its original meaning and transformed into a more secular version of its former self.

    Given that the bold part is no longer true, how about Black Friday’s Eve? And seriously, it’s not secular renaming that’s damaging Christmas, it’s running Christmas shopping ads from Halloween on. Take back Advent!

    (Also, it’s a harvest festival, something every agricultural culture develops, so coy asides about “who” is being thanked are just silly.)

  • AnonymousSam

    Indeed, especially given there is evidence that the celebrated date for Jesus’s birth has been shifted to coincide with pagan harvest festival holidays.

    (I like to think the exact day is utterly irrelevant, but the manner of which the holidays are celebrated is not. Giving gifts can inspire love and show honor. They can also inspire greed, though, which is certainly what drives the commercial industry at this time of year…)

  • EllieMurasaki

    Winter solstice isn’t a harvest festival and never was. Thanksgiving’s a harvest festival. Jamoche didn’t really have clear pronoun referents there.

  • AnonymousSam

    Ah, mayhap. I was fixating on Christmas for whatever reason. I certainly wouldn’t try to tie Thanksgiving to Christianity, given how we claim it originated (Colonists feasting with natives) and the reality of the situation (murder, rape, enslavement, intentionally spreading disease, thievery…)

    On the other hand, perhaps it makes perfect sense when you phrase it on that context.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    I clipped too much from the quote and then didn’t edit when I inserted the second sentence between my original two; I gather the original was tying Thanksgiving to Christianity in a “We’re giving thanks to GOD! Not our neighbors who helped bring the crops in (or the modern equivalent of people who work long hours at the places we want to shop), what a silly idea! And just like the war on Christmas, those eevil secularists are going to want to rename it too!” 

    As if that war hadn’t already been lost for both holidays, and by the same forces of greed on the parts of people who claim that Christmas really is one of their holy days. What’s that quip about the war on Christmas having already taken out Thanksgiving and is making a serious assault on Halloween?

  • Lori

     

    And seriously, it’s not secular renaming that’s damaging Christmas, it’s
    running Christmas shopping ads from Halloween on.  

    Exactly! The “Christmas season” is now a quarter of the year. There’s no way for something to be special when it sucks up that much of the calendar.

    The other thing that’s damaging Christmas is the insistence by Right wing culture warriors on manipulating people into thinking that anything that isn’t the way they faux-remember it from the TV sitcoms of their childhood means that [gasp, sob]Christmas is ruined.  White, upper middle class, Christian hegemony is rater “ruined”, but Christmas is not. And that’s as it should be.

  • Consume Unit 5012

    I think you guys broke the chatbot.  It’s not even trying to have a conversation now. 

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I suspect the person in question simply saves up right-wing talking points and cut/pastes as deemed tangentially relevant rather than having an actual discussion.

  • P J Evans

     I think it’s about to fail the Turing test.

  • Daughter

    Seems to me that the changes with Halloween are primarily due to first, Protestants, and later, evangelicals.  After all, the spirituality of Halloween was related to it being the eve of All Saints’ Day, a celebration which Protestants deplored because of its connection with Catholicism and saints.

    And more recently, evangelicals have turned Halloween into “Fall Festivals,” in order to give their kids a chance to dress up and get candy, without the “Satanic” elements of witches and demons.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Of all the material covered in Mr. Hasson’s excellent piece, you chose to focus on a lesser point?

  • Lori

     It’s not a lesser point Ginny. It’s a demonstration of the lack of intellectual honesty on display in Mr Hasson’s not-at-all-excellent piece. That fact that you can’t see the problem is yet another clear demonstration of your lack of critical thinking skills.

    Go on back to wherever you came from Ginny.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Thank God I don’t have an empty heart, Lori!  I’ve allowed Jesus to fill its God-shaped hole.

    I can and will be wherever I choose.

  • Lori

    Your heart may not be empty Ginny, but your head clearly is.

    Now do yourself a favor and choose to be somewhere else.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Given that she just claimed that caring about your fellow man is incompatible with christianity, pretty sure it’s *both* her heart and her head that are empty. She’s a deeply amoral person and a moron to boot.

  • Lori

    That’s a fair point.

    What is it that Lewis over at Commandments of Men calls such folks? Religiholics and imbiblers? It’s tough for people in the midst of an addiction to really care about
    anyone but themselves.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    The postmodern church speaks of the religious left, the postmodern church, and the religious right, the Body of Christ.  To me, it’s akin to the Reich church, definitely unChristian, under Hitler’s evil reign compared to the Confessing Church, the Body of Christ, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.  The postmodern church is more interested in group hugs, warm fuzzies, providing a shoulder to cry on when folks get “real” with each other, telling folks they’re fine the way they are instead of preaching the truth, instead of showing lost, hurting people that Jesus can bring them victory in their pain, as well as save them from their sinful selves!  As Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, “Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the repentant sinner who departs from sin and from whom sin departs.  Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance.  Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.  Those who try to use grace as a dispensation from following Christ are simply deceiving themselves.  Isn’t it a blasphemous encouragement to sin boldy and rely on grace?  Is there a more diabolical abuse of grace than to sin and rely on the grace which God has given?  Is this not the sin against the Holy Ghost?”  Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil.  We’re called to love all men in the name of Jesus, not ignore their debauchery in the name of diversity.  Sin is a big deal to God.  So much so that He allowed Jesus to die on a cruel Roman cross to rescue us from its grip.  Glossing over evil – whether our own behaviour or something the entertainment media has produced – is to say in essence, “What you did is really of little value to me, God.  My view of sin is different from yours, and frankly I’m not that disturbed by it.”  Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us.  It is a numbing of one’s conscience, a dumbing down of one‘s convictions.  It is political, religious and cultural correctness.  It is being afraid to step on toes.  It is not wanting to make waves.  It is keeping one’s head in the sand like an ostrich.  In the name of peace, we tolerate evil.  In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it free enterprise or freedom of sexual persuasion.  We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant.  The postmodern church, whose father is Brian McLaren, has acquired the policy of making grace available to all at too low a cost.  Their humanitarian sentiment makes them give that which is holy to the scornful and unbelieving.  The call to follow Jesus in the narrow way is rarely heard.  What has happened to the warnings of Martin Luther’s against preaching the gospel in such a manner as to make men rest secure in their ungodly living?  That seduces folks to living on the mediocre level of the world.  Deceived and weakened, men feel strong having possession of this cheap grace -whereas they have in fact lost the power to live the life of discipleship and obedience.  “Tolerance” and “love” are two very different things.  Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it.  Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ’s healing embrace.  As exemplary Bonhoeffer said, “Costly grace is the Gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.  Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ.  It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life.  It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner.  Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of His Son:  ‘ye were bought at a price,’ and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us.  The only man who has the right to say that he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ.  Grace simply means discipleship.”  

  • EllieMurasaki

    Y’know, I’m an atheist, so maybe I’m entirely misreading the Gospels, but I seem to recall Jesus saying a few things about loving one’s neighbor. Loving, not haranguing about their life choices. Also the story about casting the first stone seems to imply that he thinks nobody has the right to judge anyone. And, hey, the Sermon on the Mount had a bit about prayer and general religiousness and how it’s better to do those behind closed doors rather than in public, because if you’re doing it in public then at least part of it is so that you’ll look devout, whereas if you’re doing it in private then it is entirely because you actually are devout.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

     In Matthew 9:11-13, Jesus’ disciples were asked, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?”  On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.  I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”  He didn’t tell the tax collectors and sinners that they were fine the way they were.  He didn’t join them in their sin in an attempt to relate.  He wasn’t down with how they were living.  He boldly declared that they needed His healing and His salvation.  Does that sound like a meek and mild Saviour?  Yes, He’s loving, gentle and forgiving, but He’s also a warrior who has zero tolerance for sin! 

    God is love as the Bible declares, but He is also holy.  His holiness is the side many don’t like.  He is the divine Judge.  He points at sin and calls it evil.  And at the end of time, He will finally shut the door, and no one else will be allowed to enter the kingdom.  Those who rejected His holiness in life will not have their rebellion winked at and brushed aside.  They will go into hell for eternity.  You can’t understand God without seeing both these attributes – love and holiness – constantly working together.  It was holiness that expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden, but love that even in that moment promised a redeemer (Genesis 3:15).  It was holiness that caused God to turn away from His own Son while Jesus hung on the cross bearing the sins of the world; but it was love that had sent Him there, love that held Him there, and love that raised Him from the grave. 
    I have grown weary of folks of all stripes declaring the Bible instructs us not to judge.  Put on your thinking caps, yawl!  How irresponsible and dangerous that would be!  Impossible too!  We are instructed to judge our brothers and sisters in the Lord, while God judges the world.  We are also instructed to be cautious when we do judge.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Wow, I thought this was a Christian place.  From all of the discussion that takes place here, my concerns about so called progressive Christianity have been confirmed.  For one to claim to be a progressive Christian is an oxymoron.  It is a lie straight from the pit of hell.  There can be no such person.  It’s akin to Frank Schaeffer recently referring to himself as a Christian atheist!  Heresy!  Wolves in sheeps’ clothing!  False teaching!  What it does is lead people to hell!  You all claim to be all about love, love, love.  That is the biggest joke I have ever heard! Instead it’s cheap grace.  The humanitarian sentiment of the postmodern church makes them attempt to give that which is holy to the scornful and unbelieving, which is impossible!   

  • Lori

     

    Wow, I thought this was a Christian place.   

    Fred is a Christian, although not one that you would probably recognize as such. A fact which I’m sure fills Fred with relief.

    Many of the the commenters are Christian, but many others are not. If you’re looking for a place where people will simply swallow your baseless, illogical assertions and praise you for your full heart you should go somewhere else.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    No, Fred is NOT a Christian!

  • P J Evans

    No, Fred is NOT a Christian!

    He’s a far better Christian than you.
    You, on the other hand, seem to have missed all of Jesus’s teachings when you were in Sunday school. And clearly whatever church you go to now doesn’t follow Him either.

  • AnonymousSam

    And yet Jesus would teach that if you haven’t given what is holy to the scornful and unbelieving, then you have done nothing at all.

    You don’t want to be Christian, I don’t think. Being Christian entails charity without question, love without condition, forgiveness without exception.

    Those of us who try (and the word is try) to achieve this status of beatific grace tend to be people who struggle with their own identity. This kind of faultless peace with the world is impossible for most people to ever obtain. You don’t appear to have that struggle. You advocate surety of yourself and surety in those who tell convenient things to believe. Even Jesus questioned God’s purposes.

    If I’m ever held accountable for my decisions in live, I will stand by them. I’ve made mistakes which I would have done differently if I had an unbiased, non-subjective viewpoint at that time, but if I’m called upon to recite them to the faceless, wrathful demon that you seem to have confused for the Christ, then I will. Better to live consistent to my own ethos, history and beliefs than to compromise any part of myself to make peace with demented mortals who preach hatred in the name of love.

    To paraphrase Huckleberry Finn, I’d rather go to Hell.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You neglected to answer my question about your addiction to pornography.  Is that loving?

  • Lori

    Sam did answer your question, and even if he had not since when is declining to answer an irrelevant and incredibly rude question the definition of “unloving”? If anyone is unloving Ginny, it’s you for having asked.

    I guess when you’re stoned on Jesus it’s difficult to show good judgement in one’s interactions with others.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I’m just sayin’ for men to delve into pornography is as unloving as one can get.  That billion dollar industry destroys myriad lives in myriad ways!  It affects all of our lives, and MUST be addressed as such.  WE MUST STAMP OUT PORN!  Everyone in our country MUST face this diabolical problem and work together to eradicate it!  These days children usually view it for the first time between the ages of 4-6!  THIS IS SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE!  Do we, as a nation, love our children or not?  How we have allowed porn to be exceedingly accessible to one and all proves we do not love them as we should!  The real reason Sam may be antisocial might just be due to his addiction to porn!

  • EllieMurasaki

    Speaking as a producer and consumer of pornography (my output is exclusively prose, by the way, absolutely nobody is being exploited here, and my input is almost exclusively prose, ditto, and I do my best to make sure my visual input is exploiting nobody, and if people who aren’t legally adult click the button that says they are in order to see my porn then that’s really not my fault now is it?), not to mention an atheist, a woman, and several other things that your flavor of Christianity tends to object to, surely you have more productive and pleasurable things to do than your increasingly incoherent and futile shouting at us. May I suggest you go fuck yourself?

    (The rest of y’all, if I ever respond to her again, fishslap me, mmkay?)

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    YOU ARE DELUSIONAL, IMMATURE, SELFISH, UNWISE, UNLOVING, IRRESPONSIBLE AND YOU HAVE DEFINITELY EARNED YOUR I D ten T BADGE, Ells.

  • Lori

    Somebody needs a nap.

  • P J Evans

     You might want to stop staring into that mirror.

  • Lori

    Oh for Pete’s sake, now you’re on some anti-porn screed? Your mind jumps around like a water drop on a hot skillet and yet never lands on anything that makes any sense.

    We can not stamp out porn and even if we could it’s not your place to decide what other people look at. You’re just going to have to get over it.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    How loving, wise, caring and mature you are Lori!

  • AnonymousSam

    “His”? You assume I must be male, and then assume, because I must be male, that I must be addicted to pornography? That’s two rather broad assumptions on your part, and I’ll have you know that women are not excluded from partaking of the pornography industry.

    For that matter, what kind of pornography to which are you referring? How do you define pornography in the first place? Is a naked body pornography (Michelangelo would beg to differ, especially after four years spent painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling)? Is the depiction of two consenting adults making love to be pornography? Is this exclusively real people perpetrating real acts, or does this extend to artistic rendering, or even written depiction (in which case, why aren’t you calling for Ezekiel to be removed from the Bible?)

    What makes this such an intolerable sin on behalf of others? I would be more concerned with children being exposed to hardcore violence on television, rather than the possibility that they might look upon a sexual act. If you teach people to be afraid of and disgusted by their bodies, it does them a world of harm, I’ll have you know.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Your idiocy is showing again, Sammie.  Most men are addicted to porn.  That’s a fact.  Females, on the other hand, usually view porn in order to figure out how to win back their men.  Pathetic, huh?  Husbands viewing porn is the number one reason for divorce in this country, among Christians and non-Christians alike.  Is that not destructive to society?  It leads some men, such as Ted Bundy, to heinous acts.  Is that not destructive to society?  It causes males to view females as objects to be used for their selfish pleasure.  Is that not destructive to society? It causes husbands to prefer masturbating to unearthly, ideal, air-brushed, plastic-surgeried specimens who don’t nag or have any expectations of them rather than engage in sex with their own wives.  Is that not destructive to society?  It robs wives and children of their husband’s/father’s time, attention and financial security.  Is that not destructive to society?  Due to the Internet, porn is easily accessible to one and all, even children!  Is that not destructive to society?  Etc.  Where did I suggest teaching anyone to be disgusted by their bodies, made in God’s image?  As with everything else God made to be beautiful, satan has twisted sex into something hideous! 

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Also, a number of species demonstrate lekking behavior in which groups of males assemble during the breeding season to compete for the regard of females.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lek_mating

  • AnonymousSam

    Your arguments are deeply disingenuous, fraught with excessive pathos and logical fallacies, and an excessive abundance of ad hominem. I have no inclination to pursue this new argument with you, save to say that pornography is not a new advent brought on by modern vices. It has been around for thousands of years. Moreover, keeping sex a secret from children is a more modern idea, and yet society just keeps marching on regardless. I consider this argument a moot point, since you show no signs of even being capable of considering that your evidence-lacking constructions are more feeble than one of sound mind should purport to be a universal truth.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    The Internet has not always been around, Sammie boy/girl/whateva, and that has made the use of pornography rampant!  You are displaying your narcissism crystal clear!  You are not interested in this discussion with me because you know I have you beat, and you progressives don’t want to admit defeat EVER!

  • Lori

    Ginny, if you think that the reason people don’t want to talk to you is because you “have them beat” then you are truly delusional.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I know that when progressives are beat, they bow out cuz they are out of ammunition.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Many people get confused about ammunition because of terminology.

    A bullet, properly speaking, is the projectile that gets fired from a firearm or sling or other projectile-firing device; it doesn’t contain explosives. What we modern folks call “bullets” are actually cartridges, which contain a bullet as part of their construction (along with gunpowder and a casing to hold it all together).

  • P J Evans

     True. I once bought a pound of .45s for a friend who did his own reloading.

  • Lori

    My brother does his own reloading (he hunts). I’m not sure when he started that, but apparently it’s not only cheaper, but he sort of likes doing it so it’s become part of the process for him.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     I actually did a little reading about this once. There’s a difference between military and civilian terminology: the military terms “cartridge” and “bullet” are exactly equivalent to the civilian (law enforcement) terms “bullet” and “slug”, respectively.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     Huh! That explains a lot, actually. Thanks for the clarification!

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    I’m an archer; I can shoot the same arrow over and over. Useful when the target never changes.

  • Lori

    You are correct that I don’t know you from ADAM (and I’m heartily thankful for that), but based on your performance here I’m confident of one thing. You have never, ever beaten a “progressive” in an argument, but that you have made many, many people not want to talk to you any more.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I was referring to our discussion on pornography because no caring, responsible person can think such a destructive industry is OK!  That’s all I was referring to!  

    I have not been performing here, Lori. I’ve been standing firm in the Truth which is Jesus!

  • P J Evans

     I dunno. Playboy has had some very interesting articles; I’ve seen some funny cartoons and read some good jokes in there, also. It isn’t considered hard core, these days. (You can find far harder porn in the romance section of your major bookstores.)

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    It’s all trash that is instrumental in the destruction of myriad lives!  Nothing, absolutely nothing about the porn industry is loving!  And, yes, porn gets me upset, and rightly so!   Do you want the seeking of your own pleasure to be the measure of your life, PaJamas?

  • AnonymousSam

    Poppycock. Must so much of what you harp on about be motivated by willful ignorance? What’s this, then? Can you really call this hateful, destructive imagery, after linking the images you have earlier? What if children had seen those?

  • AnonymousSam

    Or even outside of major bookstores — am I the only person who cracks up seeing Fifty Shades of Grey next to the children’s books aisle? Has anyone in the stocking department read those? The handcuffs on the cover aren’t just pretty imagery, people!

  • Lori

     

    am I the only person who cracks up seeing Fifty Shades of Grey next to the children’s books aisle?  

    No you aren’t.

    That’s one of  several things about the 50 Shades phenomenon that make me laugh because if I didn’t laugh I’d do myself an injury banging my head against the nearest hard surface. 

  • AnonymousSam

    And to think, several large production companies have all put in bids for the rights to make a movie based on the series. I just want to see, in light of this, Disney be the ones who slap down the winning bid. I’d go to a theater packed with 200 people, paying fifty bucks a ticket, to see Disney Presents: Fifty Shades of Grey: The Animated Feature.

    I’d even buy popcorn.

  • Lori

     LOL

    Disney Presents: Fifty Shades of Grey: The Animated Feature is the only way I’d sit through a film of that book. I can’t even imagine how bad the actual film version is going to be. A non-porn movie based on very bad porn really can’t help but be a trainwreck. Does no one involved with this endeavor remember the film version of Exit to Eden? That had better source material and the film was still so horrifying that it drove one of the actors back to Australia vowing never to return to Hollywood. Oy.

  • P J Evans

     Well, there is putting it on racks in the supermarket, where everyone includingchildren can see (and skim, if they so desire). Not that the romance novels on the rack next to the magazine section have much less in the way of sexytimes.

  • Lori

     

    Not that the romance novels on the rack next to the magazine section have much less in the way of sexytimes.   

    The ones on the racks at the supermarket may not have less sexytimes than 50 Shades, but they’re far less explicit. There are certainly other books that are as explicit as 50 and it’s imitators and marketed to the same audience segment (meaning sold as erotica or erotic romance rather than as porn), but they tend not be sold at the supermarket. 

  • P J Evans

     The supermarket I go to did, in fact, have the ’50 Shades’ books on a rack, in the coffee area between the front of the store and the cereal and coffee aisles. (The cover art is interesting, but it’s not my taste in reading.)

  • Lori

    Good grief. That’s an interesting grocery store you have. I’ve never been in one that carried anything racier than the sexier Harlequins. And I’ve lived in LA, which as everyone knows is a wretched hive of scum and villainy with no morals whatsoever.

  • Kiba

    I’ve seen it at my local Kroger’s in the magazine/book isle (also functions as the seasonal items isle). 

  • Lori

    I may have to look a little more closely. Maybe the invasion of 50 Shades has reached my local grocery and I just missed it. After all, the only color that really matters is green and that thing has sold a shitload of books. (Not sure if that’s because it’s very bad porn or in spite of it, but there’s no denying it sells.)

  • Turcano

    If you wish to know the answer to that, let me regale you with the story of its origin.  50 Shades of Grey began life as a Twilight erotic fanfic that the author (then known by the nom de plume of “Snowqueens Icedragon”) tried to publish legitimately.  When informed that (gasp) you aren’t allowed to make money off another person’s intellectual property without their permission, she stripped the story of Myers’ characters (and the existence of Mormon sparklepires, I imagine) and resubmitted it for publication.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Even Cassandra Claire had more originality than that when she made the City of * series.

  • Lori

     Oh, I’m aware of 50s origins. It’s one of the things that bugs me most about it. Also that it’s crap.

  • Makabit

    I may have to look a little more closely. Maybe the invasion of 50 Shades has reached my local grocery and I just missed it. After all, the only color that really matters is green and that thing has sold a shitload of books. (Not sure if that’s because it’s very bad porn or in spite of it, but there’s no denying it sells.)

    I teach a high school creative writing class. One of my students asked if they could write erotica–you know, “Like 50 Shades of Gray”.

    I told him that stuff was selling like hotcakes, so if he thought he had a talent for it, he should go ahead, since it would probably pay his way through medical school better than many things…but that I would not be reading any erotica that he wrote until he turned eighteen and had graduated.

    He agreed to these terms, and, I believe, completely forgot about writing erotica after that.

  • P J Evans

     Yes, even us locals have no morals. [snerk]. Which is why the city just passed a ballot measure to require condoms in pr0n productions.
    The other thing that my supermarket has, somewhere (because I’ve seen it), is a rack of books with Biblical advice for the RTCs. Fortunately the two racks aren’t close together, or something would be flaming.

    (Actually, I’d like to send the section of the yellow pages with the church listings to anyone who thinks Los Angeles is full of scum and villainy. There are many, many churches (and temples, and mosques) around here.

  • Lori

     

    or something would be flaming   

    IOW they’d make the WeHo Halloween parade?

    Sorry, I couldn’t resist mocking their fear of teh ghay, which everyone knows controls Hollywood, which is synonymous with LA.

    There are many, many churches (and temples, and mosques) around here.

    And one large, expensive and well-attended cathedral.
    Angelenos, godless heathens one and all.

  • P J Evans

     Which cathedral is that? We have at least three, counting the Glass Whale in Orange county. (And a Mormon temple.)

  • Lori

    I was thinking of Our Lady of Spending the Money That Should Have Gone To Pay Settlements to Survivors of Sexual Abuse by Priests (complete with gift shop) downtown.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Yeah, many priests are not true believers, for if they were, their comportment would indicate it.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    I’d like to send the section of the yellow pages with the church listings to anyone who thinks Los Angeles is full of scum and villainy. There are many, many churches (and temples, and mosques) around here.

    I suspect our current troll would think your parenthetical bit  invalidates your argument.

  • Carstonio

    While traveling, I’ve noticed that areas that have many strip clubs tend to also have many fundamentalist churches. If this is cause and effect, I don’t know which one came first. My strange imagination has those church members frequenting the clubs during the week and then using Sunday for absolution.

  • P J Evans

     Well, there’s synagogues, which technically aren’t temples, there’s Buddhist temples, there’s Hindu temples, there’s at least one Sikh temple, there are Baha’is, there are a zillion flavors of Evangelical Protestant (from storefronts to megachurches)….

  • Lori

    It doesn’t matter what you were referring to. You have never beaten a progressive in an argument about porn, or anything else. I have no doubt that you’ve made many people throw up their hands and refuse to continue a conversation with you, but that’s not at all the same thing as winning an argument.

    And you can stop with all the exclamation points and the capitalization. It just makes you look hysterical and that isn’t winning an argument either.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You are not my boss, Lori pooh.  Just because you type differently than I do does not make you right and me wrong.  Why can’t both of our typing styles be right?

  • Lori

    I touch type Ginny. How do you type? Are you a “hunt & peck” typist? And what does how we type have to do with anything?

    If you’re talking about your excessive use of exclamation points and capitalization, that’s “right” if you want to communicate that you’re hysterical.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    And you are a controller.  I stay away from such people.

  • Lori

    A controller? Hardly. If I could control you, you’d have left long ago. But since you stay away from people like me that means you’re leaving now, right?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    When I was an undergrad, I considered working as an air traffic controller. Got the “how to pass the air traffic controller exam” guide and everything. I have a lot of respect for them.

  • Lori

    I thought about that too, but that’s a hard, hard job and I decided that I don’t have the temperament for it. I read an article once that talked the fact that air traffic controllers excrete as much adrenaline when they’re asleep as most people do awake and under stress. They’re under so much pressure at work that their fight or flight is in overdrive and just can’t shut off.

  • Lori

    Oh, you’ve been performing all right. A dancing bear has nothing on you.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Well, since I’m apparently so entertaining, I’m sorry you’re not enjoying my performance, Lori.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    How wise of you to use feces as your ammunition, as you have an unending supply.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Seriously, you do know Playboy has been around since the 1960s, right?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Yeah, but the Internet has not!

  • Mark Z.

    And that’s why, since the Internet really took off in the early 1990s, we’ve seen a rise in divorce, rape, teen pregnancy, abortion, and sexual abuse of children.

    Oh, no, we haven’t.

    So, as God said to Job, put on your big-boy pants, because it’s my turn to ask some questions.

    What “destructive choices” did I make, in the first five years of my life, to develop schizoid personality disorder? It was nap time, wasn’t it? Sometimes at nap time I wouldn’t go to sleep, and would instead sit and read quietly! Oh, if only we’d known!

    Why have I and my brother and all of our blood relatives on one side for the last four generations suffered from depression?

    I have a friend who’s a nurse at the county public health clinic, and developed PTSD after a patient was gunned down in her waiting room. Please explain what poor life choices she made to bring her illness on herself.

    Who sinned that this man was born blind? Was it him, or his parents?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Actually, many times folks develop mental illness from the destructive choices others make, and there is such a thing as the sins of the fathers being visited upon their children.

    Neither the man or his parents, according to Jesus.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You… seriously don’t seem to grasp that pornography has been around in one form or another for a long time.

    “Now, you might ask yourself ‘Why this sudden concern? Pornography and
    sex deviation have always been with mankind.’ This is true. But, now,
    consider another fact: never in the history of the world have the
    merchants of obscenity, the teachers of unnatural sex acts, had
    available to them the modern facilities for disseminating this filth.
    High-speed presses, rapid transportation, mass distribution: all have
    combined to put the vilest obscenity within reach of every man, woman,
    and child in the country.”—George Putnam, narrator.

    That’s from 1965, okay?

    Your alarmist crap about the Internets is just that.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You have your head in the sand, O Invisible one, but that doesn’t negate the explosion of pornography that came with the Internet.  It doesn’t negate all the destruction it has caused and will continue to cause in untold lives!  Grrrrrrrr

  • Lori

    You are a hypocrite Ginny. No one cares about your opinion about morals and no one should. Continuing to repeat your judgement of other people when we all know you’re a hypocrite is not going to convince anyone of anything.

    Peddle it somewhere that people aren’t smart enough to see through your fake Christian facade.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You are mean, nasty, a liar, a controller, Lori.  You must be miserable.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    How on Earth did you get to be 56 years old and still act like a
    16-year-old who’s hopping mad about something utterly banal and trivial?

    Conservatives have never learned how to grow up or walk forwards.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Michael Savage says liberalism is a mental disorder.  

  • P J Evans

     What are his qualifications in psychology and psychiatry? Or is he, like you, just making it up?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    He’s a very knowledgeable and wise 70 year old man, from whom I’ve gleaned a lot. One does not need to have a degree in psychology to be knowledgeable in it. Life’s experiences coupled with much self-education brings much enlightenment. Anyway, to be educated by our public school system and by our institutions of lower learning are not a good thing, due to their anti-Christ agenda.

  • Lori

    IOW, he has no qualifications whatsoever.

    Also, someone who listens to Michael Savage has no room to call anyone else mean. You are truly the biggest hypocrite I’ve had the displeasure to encounter in a long, long time.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    thank u, thank u very much   :)    i guess i won’t be receiving no Christmas card from you this sparkle season?  aw shucks

  • Lori

     You’re thankful for having it pointed out that the man from whom you claim to have learned so much is not Christian and has a consistent record of spewing hate?

    There is something deeply, deeply wrong with you, you big old lying hypocrite.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Actually, I’m a short, middle-aged bigot for Jesus, but I don’t have the smarts to realize that Michael Savage is not a Christian, ‘member?

  • Lori

    I give even less of a crap about your physical characteristics than I do about where you’re from. You are clearly a bigot.  Your original comments about Savage certainly seemed to indicate that you didn’t grasp that he is not a Christian. If you knew all along you could simply have said so. You didn’t, which leads me to believe that you didn’t know. Were you feeling a little too guilty to try lying to us again?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Please get some professional help, since you won’t surrender your allegiance to Jesus!

  • Lori

    Tend to your own Ginny. You clearly haven’t surrendered your allegiance to Jesus, what with the willful, persistent disobedience of clear instructions and the lying and all. Take the plank out of your own eye before you start fishing around for specks in other people’s eyes.  (That’s found in both Matthew 7 and Luke 6, in case you didn’t know.)

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    My comments about Michael Savage clearly made no such indication, Lori, and why exactly am I required to tell you or anyone else here that I knew him not to be a Christian???  Your comment concerning what I do, did or did not know about Michael Savage before you supposedly enlightened me is nonsensical.  

    Why exactly do you consider it a bad thing for me to claim to be a bigot for Jesus???

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Why refer to me as big and old since you claim you don’t care about my physical characteristics, Lori?  I simply pointed out to you that I am neither big or old.

  • Lori

    Yes Ginny the fact that I adapted a commonly used phrase (big ol’ meany) to describe you was really the important part of that post.

    Also, your physical body may not be large (I don’t care either way), but your dishonestly is huge.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Are you and Ellie trying to win the prize for who can be the nastiest to Ginny?  

  • Kiba

    Oh, you poor dear! It’s not like you haven’t been a complete asshole or anything to the commenters here. They’re just mean, nasty people who can’t see what a paragon of love, charity, and Jesus you are. Bless your pea pickin’ little heart.

    ~That’s sarcasm by the way. Just in case you didn’t catch it.  

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    The raunchy input you have chosen for yourself is on full display, Kiba!  You should be proud! Fyi, that’s sarcasm pea brain or should I say pea heart?

  • Kiba

    Raunchy? If you think that’s raunchy you need to get out more. 

    Also: 

    Yeah, many priests are not true believers, for if they were, their comportment would indicate it.

    The irony! It burns!

  • EllieMurasaki

    I’m seriously tempted to write me some porn and put it in a comment to Ms. Allen. I won’t, because none of y’all are consenting to see it, but I think she needs some firsthand experience of how consuming porn isn’t shameful and doesn’t make one a bad person.

  • Kiba

    Can it be gay porn?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Maybe. My first thought was femslash, but now you mention that, what would really entertain me right now is Jesus/the-disciple-Jesus-loved-who-is-clearly-John-not-Mary-Magdalene. (As opposed to the-disciple-Jesus-loved-who-is-clearly-Mary-Magdalene-not-John, which, Dan Brown got a fuckton wrong but I do quite like that theory of his.)

  • AnonymousSam

    Too late for consent; the image I linked on a previous reply would probably count as dirtynastyfilthy in any conservative’s book: it was interracial!

  • Lori

     Kiba isn’t the one who keeps bringing up porn.

    FYI, that’s not sarcasm, that’s just an observation.

  • Kiba

    The funny thing is that that is supposed to be an insult. If the worst that can be said about me is that I’m raunchy then I am definitely not living up to my reputation. 

    Also, I’ll take being raunchy over being a mean, hateful, hypocritical, judgmental bigot any day.  

  • Lori

     I hear ya. My rep is “that woman who takes no shit”. I’ve worked hard for that and I’m proud of it.

  • EllieMurasaki

    She’s just being cruel to be kind, and it’s entirely our fault that we can see only the cruelty. Not her fault at all, and nothing to do with how everything she’s in favor of has no upside except to a select few among whose number the vast majority of the people she’s talking to are not counted.

  • Kiba

    Okay, now you have that song stuck in my head >.<

    /em wanders off singing "You've gotta be Cruel to be kind in the right measure, Cruel to be kind it's a very good sign…"

  • EllieMurasaki

    There’s a song?

  • Kiba

    Nick Lowe-Cruel to be Kind from 1979. It’s on youtube and I’m listening to it now =P

  • Lori

    Yup. It’s by Nick Lowe, although other people have covered it

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1lof5Ho1Jw

  • EllieMurasaki

    *watches*

    I swear everything filmed in the 60s and 70s has the exact same color balance, which is never used in anything with any other date. It’s bizarre.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Star Trek DS9 trivia: When they filmed Trials and Tribble-ations, the director went all out and actually brought in cameras, lighting, and film that were used in the 1960s for the old USS Enterprise scenes.

    The contrast between the softer lighting and color tones and the harsh, sharp tones of the 1960s was really jarring, especially as the DS9 crewmember hairstyles had to be changed to reflect that. Bashir looked like he’d lost 10 pounds just going from a DS9 med-officer outfit to a 23rd century Federation medical outfit. Heh.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Huh. Cool.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    When they filmed Trials and Tribble-ations, the director went all out and actually brought in cameras, lighting, and film that were used in the 1960s for the old USS Enterprise scenes.

    The US TV show “Cold Case” used period-appropriate film stock when filming flashback scenes.

  • Lori

    No, we’re just pointing out the truth about you. If you don’t like it you can leave and not come back. Since you keep coming back I can only assume you derive some masochistic pleasure from it. So Ellie and I aren’t being nasty, we’re apparently giving you what you want. I think you should find a healthier way to satisfy your needs. Maybe some good porn would help with that.

  • Kiba

    It’s called a figure of speech to tiresome, hateful twit.

  • P J Evans

    Given that he seems to believe that people who aren’t just like him (and you) are mentally ill, I am not at all impressed by whatever you think makes him qualified to talk out of his ass. That’s not a good example to follow, and it doesn’t make YOU look good, either.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Hey, man, the all-wise, big-brother, anti-Christ progressives have taught for decades that conservatives are mentally deficient, unthinking individuals that have only held our nation back.  Dangit, just imagine how much further into the  rotting abyss of depravity, chaos, destruction, godlessness, narcissism, hedonism, nihilism, humanism, feminism, secularism, etc, we could now find ourselves in had it not been for those rural, backwards, Jesus-loving, Bible-thumping conservatives!

  • Lori

    Anyway, to be educated by our public school system and by our
    institutions of lower learning are not a good thing, due to their
    anti-Christ agenda.  

    You do realize that Michael Savage is not a Christian, right?

  • AnonymousSam

    For the record, Michael Savage is a radio talk show host. He holds a Masters in medical botony and medical anthropology. He’s also barred from entering the United Kingdom because they’re seriously afraid that some crazies will actually listen to him and start murdering people.

    He’s said some absolutely wonderful things in his time, like explaining that the reason some female students were doing charity work in a homeless shelter was because they liked getting raped by the people there.

    Yeah, he’s that kinda guy. He’s also advocated mass-murder of Muslims, physical abuse of autistic kids, and of course he believes that Obama is a Communist from Kenya.

    So it’s very small wonder why Ginny thinks he’s a wonderful man.

  • Kiba

    You are mean, nasty, a liar, a controller

    Sounds more like a description of you. Projecting much?

  • Lori

    You come in here spewing your judgements all over everyone and I’m mean? You want to tell other adults what they can and can’t look at and you want to deny full citizenship rights to anyone who doesn’t agree with your narrow, self-serving view of the Bible and I’m a “controller”*?  You’ve done nothing here but complain and judge, and I’m the one who must be miserable? You just keep piling hypocrisy on hypocrisy. Pretty soon you’re going to suffocate under the weight of your own bullshit.

    *BTW you ill-educated simpleton the word you’re looking for is “controlling”, not “controller”. 

  • AnonymousSam

    Not only that, but we’re not supposed to call her on it, because she’s telling the Truth, which comes exclusively from the Bible. The other people who get their Truth from the Bible? LIARS!!!1eleven!

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Jesus is the Truth!  He and the Bible are our standard by which we measure all else! If something doesn’t meet that standard, it’s not Truth!   :)

  • AnonymousSam

    So do you have an explanation for Numbers 5 advocating abortion in cases of adultery then? Because it seems to me that that Truth is not what you’d prefer to be the case.

  • Lori

     

      He and the Bible are our standard by which we measure all else! 

    And yet you utterly fail to live up to even the fairly easy and straightforward parts of that standard, forget about the harder parts. So I guess that means you aren’t the Truth.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Of course I am not the Truth.  Jesus is the Truth!   :)

  • Lori

    What was the sermon topic at the worship service you attended this morning Ginny? You did go to an assembly of fellow Christians for worship this morning, didn’t you?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    OK, a controlling control freak, a manipulator – yes, a controller.

  • Lori

     I’m not the one trying to tell adults what they can and can’t look at. I’m not the one trying to deny full citizenship to people with whom I disagree. That’s you, Ginny. You’re the control freak. And how have I tried to manipulate you? Do you even know what that means? I have stated my positions and beliefs straight out, nothing sneaky or manipulative about it.

    Peddle your projection to someone who cares.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    member lori i am an unedumicated dummie form the backwrads rural southe ya kno the part of the cuontrie that dont count im a conservativ lik barry goldwater about whom lies were spread and even published that he was mentally incompetent 

  • Lori

    member lori i am an unedumicated dummie form the backwrads rural southe
    ya kno the part of the cuontrie that dont count im a conservativ lik
    barry goldwater about whom lies were spread and even published that he
    was mentally incompetent   

    Quote me one time that I have mentioned in any way where you are from. I have no idea where you’re from and I don’t care. You are clearly uneducated, but that appears to be your choice. You’re also a liar and that’s definitely your choice.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    YOU NEED JESUS!

  • Lori

    You need to stop yelling.

    Also, since you clearly don’t have Jesus yourself you really aren’t in a position to tell me that I need him.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Just because you and I have obviously had very different educations does not mean you are well-educated and I am not.  I am thankful my mind has not been filled with the progressive, anti-Christ crap pumped out by our illustrious public education system, the trash streaming constantly out of Hollywood and the pop music industry, pornography, the impurity and immodesty encouraged by the fashion industry, literature that does not edify, alcohol and mind-altering drugs, etc. etc. etc.  I have been exceedingly selective in what I allow in my eye and ear gates, because what goes in will come out.  I attempt to live by the Scriptural precept, “Above all else, guard your heat, for it is the wellspring of life.”  Actually, I am much better educated and wiser than you because I have chosen to remain faithful to Jesus and the Bible.  Obviously you are lacking in intelligence, since after reading and studying God’s Holy written Word, a lot according to you, you chose to reject it.  You don’t have the intellect to comprehend its meaning, for if you did, you would NOT reject it in your life, nor would you pooh-pooh it to others.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    While your recent comments in this thread have not been surprising, it’s always nice when people are cooperative enough to damn themselves out of their own mouths, rather than my having to read between the lines. Thank you for your honesty.

  • Lori

     

    Actually, I am much better educated and wiser than you because I have chosen to remain faithful to Jesus and the Bible.  

    So what was the sermon topic at the church you attended this morning Ginny? Were the people you met with able to offer helpful prayers on your behalf when you confessed your sins of lying and bringing disgrace on the name of the Lord?

    Also, what are you doing to feed and clothe the poor, comfort prisoners and welcome strangers? You spend so much time yammering here that it’s a wonder you have any time left to fulfill your Christian duties. Which obviously you must do, you being so faithful to Jesus and the Bible and all.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Ginny Bain Allen:

    The way you act reminds me of the leaders of the planet in this book.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Um, Lori, for you to be uncaring about the effects pornography has on everyone, especially children, is unconscionable.  I am being responsible when I do my part to eradicate such a great evil.  Muslims hate us for the porn we pump out to the entire world!  Yes you do attempt to manipulate.

  • Lori

    The Bible doesn’t tell you to yap on the internet about porn. It tells you to clothe and feed the poor, comfort those in prison and welcome the stranger. Your little porn crusade is just another example of you reading exactly what you want in the Bible and nothing more. Cafeteria Christian.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Hell with Playboy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_erotic_depictions –to be fair there’s no real way to tell with some of those, might be porn where the only available surface to art on is a cave wall, might simply be graffiti of genitalia, but pornographic art is as old as art itself. Mass-distributed porn is as old as mass-distributed literature, which is to say as old as the printing press. The Internet is just one more distribution method.

    And provided all parties to the production and consumption of pornography are fully informed and fully consenting, and all parties to the production are legal adults and care is being taken to ensure the performers’ safety (if applicable, see also, prose porn), and all parties to the consumption are (say) fifteen and up, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with porn and I have no idea why anyone does. A lot of porn is exploitative and a lot of porn is unsafe for the performers and who the fuck thought popup ads for porn sites were a good idea because anybody of any age could see them and even the ones old enough are by definition not consenting to seeing the ads, and porn as a genre has distressing tendencies to reinforce kyriarchal structures (focusing on what gets off straight men rather than women or queer men, fetishizing queerness and chromaticness, presenting male doms with female subs as the normal state of affairs rather than a normal state of affairs, hardly ever taking time to get consent or negotiate boundaries on camera, etc etc). But those aren’t problems with porn itself, just with the implementation of the concept.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You can lead an atheist to reason, but you can’t make her think.  Our different worldviews even affect our views on pornography – wow!  But, of course, if we are all merely animals struggling for survival, it’s to be expected, right Ells?  Silly me, huh?

  • P J Evans

     It used to be done with respectable paintings, the kind that were ‘educational’. Things like women (not entirely clothed) in harems, in ‘marriage markets’, being carried off (frequently literally) by men.
    Then there’s the Victorian adult novels….

  • AnonymousSam

    If you accompanied me throughout this blog, you would have seen a number of times in which I have been argued into a corner and forced to concede defeat. One of the people here is even responsible for my having decided to oppose the death penalty — when I first came here, I was in favor of it and their logical arguments forced me to admit that my belief was poorly founded. I have also had an irregular tendency to say stupid things, which has sometimes led to arguments at the end of which I have apologized and admitted doing wrong.

    The belief that my behavior must be consistent in or out of your presence is not becoming of one making an argument of narcissism. I’m not interested in an argument with you for reasons having more to do with the characteristics that make you you. Your blasé refusal to argue in good faith, for example.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     Kevin Spacey has something to tell you about your facts:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVUOGUmxJI&t=7s

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     Also, seven is a prime number.

  • AnonymousSam

    If you were Christian, my answer, affirmative or negative, would be inconsequential to you. What you want is a religion which places you on a pedestal to be beheld as an ideal for human behavior, giving your sins and faults an easy, egotistical get out of jail free card which you can flash whenever someone dares question your behavior. “Jesus forgives my sins — BUT NOT YOURS,” you can say.

    That isn’t Christianity. Sorry.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You hear what you choose to hear, Sam.  Your hearing is very selective, I see.

  • AnonymousSam

    Mote, eye, beam, etc.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    One thing that I do lament, given the non-existence of hell, is that I won’t get to see her face when she meets God, and he tells her exactly what he thinks of her hateful, spiteful perversion of faith that spits in the face of everything He did on the cross.

  • AnonymousSam

    I’ve been contemplating thoughts like that and realized that they tie a little uncomfortably close to the same motivations which give us the death penalty. If God has the capacity to project empathy into another, which I would consider the most effective form of communication, then a simple expression of disapproval, pity and reproach would be more than adequate.

    The trick is simply allowing the listener to know and understand these things in their fullest depths. That creates all the Hell I would deem necessary to lead a person on the search for redemption.

    Then again, it might be my lack of empathy which would give me this impression of its potential power. Still, I like to think that truly knowing and being unable to unfeel someone’s disappointment in you would be a powerful motivating force.

  • EllieMurasaki

    truly knowing and being unable to unfeel someone’s disappointment in you would be a powerful motivating force.

  • Lori

     

    Then again, it might be my lack of empathy which would give me this impression of its potential power.  

    You don’t feel it, but you understand it and put effort into trying to work out its implications and base your behavior accordingly. AFAICT that puts you well ahead of plenty of people who can feel it, but don’t and seemingly do their best to avoid thinking about it at all.

     

    Still, I like to think that truly knowing and being unable to unfeel
    someone’s disappointment in you would be a powerful motivating force.   

    The problem with this is that other people’s disappointment doesn’t always tie in any meaningful way to you having actually done something wrong. People can be disappointed in you, very disappointed, when you haven’t actually done anything wrong, you’ve just done something that they didn’t like. Smothering a person in disproportionate, unwarranted disappointment is a classic technique of emotional abuse.

    Conversely, people do shitty things all the time that don’t disappoint anyone whose opinion they value, because all their friends and family are just as shitty as they are.

  • AnonymousSam

    Your words are appreciated, though I don’t share the same perception of myself.

    What I’m picturing isn’t just the knowledge that what you’ve done has produced these feelings, but the perfect knowledge of it — not just empathy, but unclouded, objective empathy, producing awareness of the other and the exact cause of what actions led to these feelings as a consequence. I’ve always thought that if people could really feel the harm they’ve caused others, they wouldn’t be capable of causing that harm (short of some insane form of masochism where they inflict cruelty on others to punish themselves for causing harm to others…)

    Sounds like a curse in a fantasy novel. I’ve actually written something like this, where a murderer is cursed by a telepath to have ceaseless empathy for others, which brings their killing spree to a halt and forces them to make amends in order to put an end to their own pain.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    not just empathy, but unclouded, objective empathy, producing awareness of the other and the exact cause of what actions led to these feelings as a consequence.

    After one of Terry Pratchett’s villains died he saw his entire life flash before his eyes – from the perspective of his victims. It resurrected his long-dormant sense of empathy.

  • Lori

     

    Sounds like a curse in a fantasy novel. 

    It does, and short of that I don’t think it can happen.

     

    I’ve actually written something
    like this, where a murderer is cursed by a telepath to have ceaseless
    empathy for others, which brings their killing spree to a halt and
    forces them to make amends in order to put an end to their own pain.  

    Sounds interesting. I’d subscribe to your newsletter :)

  • AnonymousSam

    It does, but to be fair — what in religion doesn’t? And then you get things like Scientology, where the resemblance to a science fiction novel, I think, is not likely to be a coincidence…

    I’ve written a number of short stories, none published — perhaps when and if I ever start that blog that I’ve been asked about, I’ll post a few demonstrations of how a sociopath writes fiction. :P

  • Lori

     

    It does, but to be fair — what in religion doesn’t? And then you
    get things like Scientology, where the resemblance to a science fiction
    novel, I think, is not likely to be a coincidence…   

    You know I’m with you on this. As an atheist I can’t help but be.

     

    I’ve written a number of short stories, none published — perhaps when
    and if I ever start that blog that I’ve been asked about, I’ll post a
    few demonstrations of how a sociopath writes fiction. :P   

    If you ever decide to take the plunge be sure you let us know and give us a link.

  • AnonymousSam

    To use a phrase I heard recently on this blog, I would be considered an atheist, but not a very good skeptic. I tend to postulate ideas which drive other atheists absolutely batshit with fury. Incidentally, this is half of why I don’t go on the atheist blogs here. The other half is that they tend to act like rabid animals toward any person of faith — just look at our recurring atheist trolls and you’ll get an idea of how almost everyone in the comments section of some blogs tend to behave.

    For awhile, I identified as a dualist pantheist, which is someone who believes that divinity is a natural part of the universe and that there are both physical and spiritual components to everything — more or less so that when I used a self-identifying label, it didn’t give people the false impression that I act like Scully of the X-Files, endlessly demanding scientific proof of something before being willing to even speculate on its ramifications. I tend to identify more with Mulder.

    If I do start a blog, you’ll be one of the first to know. It would be for your patronage. Thanks to the watchdog nature of my place of employment, I have to keep the nature of my interaction on the down low, so this is one of the only places out there where I’ve told anyone that I have APD, or why I lost my faith, etc. If people had the right names or heard the right characteristic notes, they could piece together who I am and get me in some trouble.

  • Madhabmatics

    wow this really is the worst thread

  • Lori

    It was OK for the first half dozen or so pages, but now it’s just poking the whack-o and I should really stop. It’s like gawking at a wreck though, tough not to do.

  • AnonaMiss

    Shorter GBA: lol butts

  • Zippy

    Ginny —

    As a blog, this is an open forum. Although populated by assorted Christians it is open to all people created by God.

    You, personally, may want to join a few more selective forums such as Fresh-Hope ( http://www.fresh-hope.com/forums/index.php ), NarniaWeb ( http://forum.narniaweb.com/ ), or The PuritanBoard ( http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/ ), where the Christians predominate.

    I do not say this in the spirit of dumping a problem on them. Rather, I think that you could benefit from spending some time on a board where you cannot find an excuse to look down upon someone. Or maybe just have bitten off more than you can chew in the 1 Cor. 3:1-2 sense of the word:  “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.  I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.”

    I also do not say this in the spirit of setting you up to fail. The closed forums listed above have multiple moderators and will rebuke Christians behaving badly, even evict them if all else fails. That’s why I listed several; you’d have to really screw up to get booted from them all. Having said that, more than a few nonbelievers on Fred’s blog here could join one of the forums and contribute both intelligently and graciously.

    Always remember that nonbelievers judge Christ by His messengers.  God did not send the angels to preach the good news — God sent us. And after much thought and some prayer, it is my belief and hope that a little communion-of-saints among some saints that you actually respect might do you some good. Fred’s blog for meat-teeth Christians will still be here when you’re ready for it.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Wow, Zippy, I have been walking with Jesus for a long time, and I really don’t need your input into my life with my Lord, Master and Saviour!

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I am NOT, nor do I have, a problem, Z man!

  • Lori

    Looks like Zippy really hit a nerve.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Actually, Zippy has no clue!

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I do not look down upon anyone for any reason, but neither am I required to accept sinful behaviour.  I love the sinner while, at the same time, I hate their sin.  What about that is so hard to comprehend?  I am not a true believer behaving badly either.  I do not appreciate being called unintelligent or ungracious.  I spend much time in the presence of other true believers, thank you.  All of Christ’s messengers are messy, for there is only One perfect.  I am not perfect but the One I serve is!

  • Lori

     

    I do not appreciate being called unintelligent or ungracious.  

    Then don’t say unintelligent things and behave in an ungracious manner. As long as you’re being unintelligent or ungracious people are going to call you on it. If you don’t like it you can go away and not come back.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    For you all to call me unintelligent or ungracious or whatever thoughless term you attribute to me doesn’t mean it’s true.  Your PO is insignificant to me.

  • Lori

    For you all to call me unintelligent or ungracious or whatever thoughless term you attribute to me doesn’t mean it’s true. 

    This is true. My saying that you are unintelligent and ungracious doesn’t make it true. You acting unintelligent and ungracious makes it true. Which you have been, and it is.

    And as long as you’re behaving in an unintelligent, ungracious manner people are going to call you on it. If you don’t like it you can go away and not come back. Don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out, but before you leave do tell us what the punishment should be for a woman who has an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is murder.

    Your PO is insignificant to me.  

    If our “PO”* is insignificant to you then why did you complain about it? Were you lying when you said that you didn’t appreciate being calling unintelligent and ungracious or are you lying now when you say you don’t care? Lying is a sin Ginny.

    *What is that any way? Our patent office? Our parole officer? Our purple onion?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    And when did you start caring about sin, Lori?

  • Lori

    I don’t care, but you claim that you do. If that’s true you really shouldn’t be lying, especially after making such a big deal about your Christianity. After all, the book you claim to follow also says that it’s a sin to bring shame and disgrace on the cause of Christ. Are you planning to answer the alter call tomorrow morning Ginny?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I don’t usually go to a church building on Sunday mornings, and I can take my requests straight to Jesus any time of day or night 24/7/365.  No middle man needed.  

  • Lori

    So you’re one of those cafeteria Christians? You pick and chose which of the scriptures to follow and which to ignore based on your personal preference and you’ve decided not to bother with Hebrews 10:25? That being the case, where do you get off telling other people that they have to follow the verses that they don’t like or think are necessary?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Hebrews 10:25 makes no mention of attending a man-made church building, does it, Lori?  I have never forsaken assembling with other true believers.  Just because I do not like attending church services in huge buildings that cost lots of money to maintain does not make me any less a true believer in Jesus.  I simply do not agree with wasting so much money when instead, in my opinion, it should be going to care for the poor among us, and around the globe.

  • AnonymousSam

    Most members of the Christian faith would take exception to that thinking, though it’s one of the few things you’ve said which I can fully endorse. If God is with everyone who embraces him in their heart, then why do they need a special building to visit once a week?

    I just think it’s interesting that you can have a rather significant disagreement with something the majority of Christians believe, then dismiss so many people as “not true Christians.”

  • Lori

    So you’re part of a home church and you’ll be with them tomorrow? Will you confess your sin of lying and bringing public shame on the name of Christ and ask for prayer and forgiveness?

    The New Testament makes it pretty clear that Christians are, within the boundaries of their physical ability to do so, supposed to meet with other Christians on the first day of the week for worship. I really don’t think that the writer of Hebrews would think that flapping your yap on the internet on Saturday counts as a substitute.

    I don’t care if you want to pretend that that’s not true. Doing that does leave you without a leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing other Christians’ beliefs though. If it’s fine for you to interpret the scriptures to suit your own preferences where do you get off criticizing others for doing the same? Where in the world does a woman who ignores the clear instruction to meet with other Christians on the first day of the week get off judging whether or not Fred, or anyone else, is really a Christian?

    Before you answer that you might want to make note of the fact that I was raised in a very Christian home and have no doubt forgotten more Bible than you’ll ever know. You may be able to con people who are less familiar with the scriptures into thinking that you know what you’re talking about and that you aren’t just self-serving and full of crap, but you can’t pull that on me. Don’t bother to try.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Are you as you claim to be an atheist now, Lori, really a wounded Christian?

  • Lori

     No Ginny, I’m really an atheist.

  • Lori

    BTW, don’t think that I didn’t notice the way you ignored the substance of my post in order to focus in on some fantasy about me being a ‘wounded Christian”.

    The fact that you didn’t respond to the question makes it obvious that you are in fact in violation of the clear instruction, given by people you claim to believe were Apostles of Christ speaking by inspiration of God, to meet with other Christians on the first day of the week. Your objection has nothing to do with spending money on a building, because you aren’t a member of a home church either. You just don’t want to go, so you do as you please and ignore the commands of God. Pretty much hat you’ve been railing against others for doing.

    You’re a hypocrite Ginny. One who brings disgrace on the name of the one you claim to worship. You better hope that I’m right and you’re wrong about the existence of God, because if you’re right you’re actually in far more eternal trouble than I am.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Praise Jesus He offers forgiveness when we repent, and turn away from our sin, Lori.  I examine myself daily and ask Him to complete His refinement of me.  We are called to be holy as He is holy.  That seems impossible to mere humans, but God knows of what we are capable when we surrender our allegiance to Him.  

  • Lori

    Praise Jesus He offers forgiveness when we repent, and turn away from our sin, Lori.  

    True repentance requires changing one’s behavior. So, will you be in church tomorrow or will you continue to ignore the command of God because you don’t want to go? Will you stop lying in a vain attempt to win arguments or are you going to go right on saying whatever you think will work best in the moment, even when it brings shame on the name of Christ? If you’re going to go right on ignoring God’s commands then you haven’t really repented and you can’t actually get forgiveness.

    I examine myself daily and ask Him to complete His refinement of me.  We are called to be holy as He is holy. 

    Look a little harder.

    That seems impossible to mere humans, but God knows of what we are capable when we surrender our allegiance to Him.

    People have already explained that you’re “I’m not perfect” schtick cuts no ice here so just give that up. It’s getting old.

    I’m sorry you know the Bible so well, but have still chosen to reject Jesus.

    Don’t be. I’m certainly not.

    I love the Bible, and continue getting to better know its precepts daily.

    You clearly have some serious work to do. I suggest that you spend more time reading the Bible and a lot less judging and pontificating on the internet. Maybe find a good Bible study group to meet with.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I most certainly do have my work cut out for me, Lori, as do all Christians.  You have no idea as to how I spend my time on Sunday mornings or any other time.  I certainly do not have to explain myself to you for you are not my sister in the Lord.  

  • Lori

    You’re right Ginny, I don’t know how you spend your time on Sunday mornings. I do know how you don’t spend your time though. You don’t spend it following the clear command to meet with other Christians for worship.

    And no, you don’t have to explain yourself to me. If you’re right about the existence of God you’ll have plenty of explaining to do to Him but I’m not the slightest bit interested in hearing it.

    The point isn’t for you to explain yourself to me or anyone else. The point is for you to stop being such a judgmental hypocrite. To quote my dearly departed grandma, tend to your own knitting and leave the rest of us to tend to ours.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Folks like me who are bold enough to speak out for the Truth which is Jesus are necessary in this complacent, mediocre, apathetic society.  One person can do a lot, and I would be remiss if I didn’t try.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I guess it’s OK for atheists to be mean and nasty, huh Lori?

  • Daughter

     Most men are addicted to porn.  That’s a fact.  … Husbands viewing porn is the number one reason for
    divorce in this country, among Christians and non-Christians alike.

    Hmm, IIRC, Ginny’s first post here was a defense of D’Souza as a good man and godly Christian, even though he’s in the middle of a divorce and has been seeing a much younger woman who looks like a porn star. So was that D’Souza’s problem, viewing too much porn?

    (FWIW, I don’t think most men are addicted to porn. Most men like it, yes, and view it on occasion. Actually addicted? Those men, IMO, are few. I don’t know if there are any stats on this, I’m just going by the men I know.

    There are stats, however, on the reasons for divorce, and the #1 reason is conflicts over finances, not the husbands viewing porn. As some have noted, many fundamentalists not only have a low view of women, they have a pretty low view of men).

  • Zippy

    Ginny —

    So the first time you meet a fellow Christian, you tell me to be quiet? The only “input” I offered was seeing you alongside the metaphorical highway with a flat tire and stopping to see if you were okay. Or to use a Biblical metaphor, I was a beggar telling another where to find bread.

    At no time did I question your salvation, just your maturity and your manners. BTW I may be older than you are, so be thankful I’m not pulling rank on you on the respect-for-your-elders-in-the-Church card.

    We are called to be Fools for Christ, not Jerks for Jesus. I repeat my recommendation that you spend some time with Christians you genuinely respect.  I listed the forums above because they don’t do “who would Jesus flip off”.    

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Z, if I have to condone abortion, homosexuality, pornography, heresy of the postmodern church, and all that rot before you deem me qualified to sink my teeth into the meat of God’s Word, I’ll continue drinking the milk.  I am canon-minded and live according to the Biblical worldview and, with Jesus’ help, will stand firm to the end.  What about you?  Btw, I am 56.

  • AnonymousSam

    Honest question: How do you hold “condoning abortion” and “reading the Bible as canon” as mutually exclusive when the Bible, I say again, mandates abortion? That’s not rhetorical or derived from some twisted interpretation of the reading. It refers to the Sotah ordeal described in Numbers 5:11-31, referring to the process of giving a wife suspected of having had an affair a potion which confers God’s judgment upon her. The thinking goes, if she is guilty, it will cause a miscarriage and disfigure her womb to render her sterile, and otherwise nothing will happen.

    You can quote Jesus as having abolished the old laws (although he also, on multiple occasions, claimed to uphold them), but in doing so, please remember that much of those old laws, in between requiring that a women on her period should be isolated from the village, also pertained to things like homosexuality.

    At no point is pornography mentioned, though, which is a good thing when the Bible has its share of smut as well.

  • Zippy

    Well, Ginny, since I believe that Christians should behave honorably, I’ll admit that you do in fact have me beat by age, albeit not by much. I doubt we have the same birthday. Still, I don’t see why you think you may speak to a pro-life anti-heresy hetero Christian chaste in such a fashion; it pains me that we’re on the same side.

    So I must stand by the maturity-and-manners suggestion. “Deem” you qualified? Nobody’s stopping you, least of all me. I’d be thrilled if you ate more spiritual meat. I just don’t think it’s enough to state what a Christian is against, or even what a Christian is in favor of — and you’ve done nothing else but state-state-state. Well, and pick fights.  In short, your witnessing lacketh.

    May I ask in turn why you found my suggestion so contemptible? I didn’t tell you to leave. I recommended some Christian websites because they are fine forums, full of the bread of life and living water. I genuinely thought most Christians would like the places. Maybe you’re the kind who wouldn’t? *shrug* I offered to help with the tire, I offered lunch, I gotta go. To the secular store, that is, to buy secular bread. Not quitting — I’ll pray, if you like — just got to get going to witness to some clerk by pointing out that she undercharged me and here’s the rest of the money.

    Peace all, and Happy Thanksgiving weekend.

  • mountainguy

    “It is our legacy, blood-bought for us. Anyone who wants what we have, can earn it by going to Mars, instead. We don’t mind if they want to go.”

    That’s exactly what I expect to hear from someone who’d rather put christendom over Christ. Say whatever you want, quote whatever biblical verse you want, I’m no one to question your salvation, but you are only defending a fallacious blood-lust institution called “christendom” (more exactly, the usamerican version of it). So, as a non-usamerican christian I’ll just tell you that your nationalist discourse doesn’t make any sense to anyone not belonging to your tribe.

  • AnonymousSam

    Oh, and in keeping with my apparent nature as Everything Ginny Hates, I just posted the 666th comment on this thread.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     Oh, I think you’re being a tad ambitious here. I suspect that Ginny hates many more things than you are able to encompass.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    This fallen world is a dreadful place, filled with sin, pain, suffering and sadness!  Only because of Jesus can I go on!  He affords me the necessary strength, joy, hope, peace, comfort and guidance!

  • Lori

    If Jesus exists he’s rolling his eyes at you so hard right now.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    I’m very sorry that your experience of the world is so characterized by pain, suffering, and sadness. I’m delighted that you’ve found something that helps you go on despite that experience.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    This fallen world is a dreadful place, filled with sin, pain, suffering and sadness! 

    So why do I get the impression you sound thrilled about that? Maybe because then you get to stand here and pontificate? Too bad it’s not a place full of both good things and bad, good people and bad – oh, wait.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I’m certainly NOT thrilled about that for I must endure life here in this rotting culture.  More concerning is that my children and future generations will have to endure even more filth and depravity!

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    A man was standing on a road near a town when a traveller came by. “What sort of people are in that town?” the traveller asked.

    “What sort of people were in the town where you came from?” he replied.

    “It was a cesspit of filth and depravity!”

    “Ah, well, you’ll find them much the same here.”

    Later another traveller passed by the same man, asked the same question, and got the same question in reply. “The friendliest people you’ll ever meet,” the second traveller said.

    “Ah, well, you’ll find them much the same here.”

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Yeah, well, we don’t all share the same life experiences, do we?

  • EllieMurasaki

    I would just like it on record that Florence + the Machine’s “You’ve Got the Love” and “Bedroom Hymns” are immensely better at getting me to think well of Christianity (which I assume is a prerequisite to getting me to ever go back to Christianity) than anything Ginny Bain Allen has ever said.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    That’s one of the oldest excuses used to reject Jesus, Ells.  Jesus is the only perfect One!  I fall far short because He is God and I am not!  Simple as that.  You are not supposed to keep your eyes focused on fallen humans.  Your focus needs to be on Him alone!  Given enough time spent together, we will ALL let each other down.  That is one of the inevitables in life, along with death, taxes and change.  Please forgive me for being such a messy messenger.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    > You are not supposed to keep your eyes focused on fallen humans.

    That’s reassuring to know.

    Especially when I find myself engaged with people who seem to focus on nothing else.

  • Lori

     

    Please forgive me for being such a messy messenger.   

    You aren’t a messy messenger Ginny, you’re a hypocrite. It’s not the same thing at all.

  • Lori

     LOL again.

  • Kiba

    That’s one of the oldest excuses used to reject Jesus, Ells.  Jesus is the only perfect One!  I fall far short because He is God and I am not!  Simple as that.  You are not supposed to keep your eyes focused on fallen humans.  Your focus needs to be on Him alone!  Given enough time spent together, we will ALL let each other down.

    This? This right here is what is called a copout. You come strolling in here behaving like a complete and total asshole, treating others like shit, tossing around your idea of what Christianity is like a monkey flinging poo, telling other’s that their idea of what Christianity is wrong and then hand wave that all away by saying “Only Jesus is perfect and I’m not Jesus so you can’t hold me accountable for what I say.” 

    Yeah, that’s bullshit. If you don’t want people to point to you and say that you and people like you are why they are not/no longer Christian then I would suggest not being a total and complete asshole for starters. You don’t get to handwave  away your actions with “I’m not perfect.”     

    Please forgive me for being such a messy messenger.

    Nope. You hateful old baggage. Forgiveness may come when you stop being such a hateful tool, but then it may not and that’s your own damn fault. 

  • EllieMurasaki

    “Only Jesus is perfect and I’m not Jesus so you can’t hold me accountable for what I say.”

    Who was it said that we’re not expected to complete the task of perfecting the world but we’re obliged to work at it? I don’t think it was Jesus, or indeed anybody Christian, but it sounds like the sort of thing he’d approve of.

  • Kiba

    I dunno about perfection. I know I’m not perfect and I’m pretty certain that I will never be perfect; however, I do know that I can be better than I am right now so that’s what I aim for. To be better than I am at any given moment. 

  • EllieMurasaki

    Yeah. That’s the point. If you’re better today than yesterday, you’re closer to perfect than you were yesterday, and if you’re better tomorrow than today, you’ll be closer still. Ain’t never gonna get there–there is a calculus metaphor here that I’m not sure I can explain properly–but as long as you keep going you’ll keep getting closer.

    Ms. Allen seems to be running as fast as she can in the opposite direction.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Mrs. Allen, Ellie.  I’m certainly no feminist!

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Interesting! So, Mrs. Allen, which rights do you think men should have which should be denied to women? Which opportunities granted to men should be legally denied to women? About how much in dollars is a woman worth less than a man?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You’ve got to be kidding me, right, Ross?  I’m not going to touch the topic of feminism here with a ten foot pole!  I would be torn to shreds.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     Of course not. I’m genuinely curious. Feminism is the belief that men and women are and of right out to be treated as fully equal, fully human, and of equal worth. Nothing more, nothing less. You viehemently reject that belief, therefore you must believe that women are inferior to men. I’m very curious as to the details of that. See, I have a son, but my sister has a daughter. And when I try to imagine how someone could think that my son is inherently more valuable than my niece , that my son ought to be given rights and opportunities that my niece shouldn’t be, I can’t get my mind around it. So I’d like to know: which rights don’t you think my niece should have but my son should? Which opportunities should my son get but my niece be denied? How much less of a person is my niece than my son?

    Someday, God willing, I hope I’ll have a daughter of my own. How could I or any parent look at his children and say “Daughter, I love you and all, but you are inherently inferior to your brother”? How do you do it?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Feminism is the belief that men and women are and of right out to be treated as fully equal, fully human, and of equal worth. Nothing more, nothing less. You viehemently reject that belief, therefore you must believe that women are inferior to men.

    Not strictly true. A logical inference from other of Ms. Allen’s remarks, but it’s possible to be not-a-feminist from the perspective of women are superior to men.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Humanism declares that man is the measure of all things.  Feminism is humanism on the half shell.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     I’m sorry, you’re going to have to try making sense here. Feminism is the belief that women aren’t inferior to men. You seem to think it has some weird taint from humanism, so therefore you must believe that women are inferior to men. So in what ways? How much? Which rights don’t women deserve? If someday  I have a daughter, how much less should I love and esteem her than I love and esteem my son?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Huh, that’s not the vibe I got from her comment at all. I thought she was saying she was a humanist and feminism is a much inferior approach to the same goal, only saying so in a way that makes it clear she has no idea what humanism (or for that matter feminism) actually is.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     Do you really think she’d say something like that?

  • EllieMurasaki

    It’s not an uncommon mistake, so.

  • Lori

    She also clearly has no idea what the phrase “on the half shell” means, so she’s batting 1000 in the stupid league.

  • EllieMurasaki

    To be fair, I don’t know what it means either. DuckDuckGo says it’s a reference to the novel Venus on the Half-Shell, which references Aphrodite rising from the sea, which doesn’t enlighten me any.

  • Lori

    It’s just a reference to a (sometimes kinda, sorta) fancy presentation method, usually for oysters, but sometimes for goddesses :)

    Unless she was trying to say that feminism is a fancy-ish presentation of humanism then it was an incorrect use of “on the half shell”. It’s not and I really don’t think she was trying to make a goddess reference, but I’ll allow that I could possibly be wrong about that.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Oh okay. Thanks!

  • EllieMurasaki

    *ducks fishslap*

    *Humanism* is the body of philosophies and ethical perspectives that emphasize the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers individual thought and evidence ( rationalism , empiricism),
    over established doctrine or faith (fideism
    ).

    I don’t think you really want to go there, Ms. The Bible Is Always Right Except When It Says Something I Don’t Like In Which Case I Will Pretend It Says Something Else Or Ignore That Bit Entirely.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Mrs. Allen, Ellie.  I’m certainly no feminist!

    Now I have to wonder if you’re just someone who likes being a walking caricature for some unknown reason.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Mrs. Allen, Ellie.  I’m certainly no feminist!

    Now I have to wonder if you’re just someone who likes being a walking caricature for some unknown reason.

    Further on this.

    This kind of thing is something I could imagine some MRA or some misogynist coming up with – creating a sock account with a woman’s name, and using said name to disclaim any adherence to feminist ideals or concepts as a way to invoke the claim that some women like being unable to take advantage of the social and economic advances for women in the last hundred years.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You have no clue as to what you are speaking.  For the most part, feminism is a baddd thing!

  • AnonymousSam

    Ah, this explains the rehashing of presidents giving Christian-themed Thanksgiving day speeches: Obama supposedly failed to mention God in his speech. Never mind that he did — several times, actually. The truth has never stopped conservatives from railing against Obama for being an atheistic Muslim.

  • EllieMurasaki

    You forgot one: atheist Muslim who listens to Pastor Wright.

  • AnonymousSam

    My apologies to President Satan.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     > The truth has never stopped conservatives from railing against Obama

    Yeah.

    Conversations with my mom, who is not insane but lives in Fox Country and mostly adopts her beliefs about the world as a matter of protective coloration, have become almost routine this way.

    She’ll say “I don’t trust Obama because X!” and I’ll nod and ask her whether X is actually important… that is, if it turned out that X was also true of, say, Mitt Romney or Jeb Bush or somebody, would she also not trust them? If it turned out that X was actually not true of Obama, would she start to trust him?

    And she’ll look puzzled at me and changes the subject.

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • AnonymousSam

    Such wonderful role models. I especially find it admirable how they wanted to round up and murder all the homosexuals, anyone suspected of being homosexual, and anyone denying their latent homosexuality. Are you a fan of Deuteronomy 13 as well, Ginny? That’s the commandment to murder everyone in the world who isn’t Christian, including your family and loved ones.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Such wonderful role models. I especially find it admirable how they
    wanted to round up and murder all the homosexuals, anyone suspected of
    being homosexual, and anyone denying their latent homosexuality. Are you
    a fan of Deuteronomy 13 as well, Ginny? That’s the commandment to
    murder everyone in the world who isn’t Christian, including your family
    and loved ones.

    Also anyone who gives aid and comfort to a homosexual, or who fails to turn in someone they suspect of being gay.

  • Madhabmatics

    anyone wanna trade a game that is on sale on steam for a copy of half-life 2

    i swear i am never going to get rid of this extra half-life 2 copy

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Advent Preparation
    Embracing the Story Behind Christmas
    John StonestreetNovember 26, 2012
    The holiday season can seem every bit as chaotic, random and thrown together as the playlists of those obnoxious 24/7 Christmas music stations. Going from Black Friday to church pageants to being frisked by the TSA as we travel to sometimes awkward family gatherings strangely resembles going from the materialism of “Santa Baby,” to the light spirituality of “The Little Drummer Boy,” to “You’re a Mean One, Mr. Grinch,” concluding with “Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer.”And we end up feeling like Charlie Brown screaming at Linus, “Can’t anyone tell me what Christmas is all about?”So what do we do?  Well, one important thing is to remember what Eric Metaxas reminded us of a week ago: that it’s not really Christmas season—it’s Advent season, a time set aside by the church to help believers prepare to receive the fullness of Jesus’ coming.And it’s not just in remembrance of His incarnation, coming to Bethlehem as a babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, but also in anticipation of His return as the “Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory,” who will “send his angels to gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens” (Mark 13:26-27).Over the past few years, walking through this season of Advent in prayer, scripture and devotional readings has been a huge blessing to my family, my church, and to me personally.Another thing that has really helped me is studying just how big this Christmas story is. Behind all the gifts, the carols, nativity scenes, and dinner parties is a narrative that spans from the creation of the heavens and earth to the re-creation of the heavens and earth.Here’s what I mean: All those characters we remember in the Christmas story—Mary, the Wise Men, Shepherds, Angels, Joseph, Zachariah, Elizabeth, Simeon—they all have something in common. They identified what was happening to them as being firmly rooted in the promises of God—promises to His people detailed in the Old Testament. Thinking like they did—that behind all of the noise and chaos of this time of year is a story being unfolded—has changed almost everything about how I approach Advent and Christmas.One resource I go back to over and over again to remind myself of this is Michael Card’s incredible CD “The Promise.” Rather than just picking eight to ten Christmas carols he liked and re-singing them, Michael’s CD beautifully takes us in song on the journey from the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus through the specifics of the details in the nativity, to the establishment of Jesus on the throne of David as the ruler of all things.It’s absolutely stunning, and Michael joined me on “BreakPoint This Week” last weekend to walk through these songs and therefore the big story of Christ’s coming from the Old Testament to the New. In between Michael’s narration are key segments of many of the songs. It’s something you’ll want to listen to—go to BreakPoint.org and click on the “This Week” tab.And I’ve partnered with T. M. Moore to prepare a special Advent study for you and your family called “He Has Come.” The study consists of a teaching DVD, devotional studies on Advent, and a CD of many sacred carols which reflect the worldview truths established by the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh.We have both the Michael Card CD and our “He Has Come” Advent study for you at the BreakPoint book store online. If you’d like both for yourself or your family or friends, we’re offering them together in a special Christmas bundle at BreakPoint.org.And this Advent, let’s look beyond all the glitzy schmaltziness of our culture’s celebration of the holidays, and see the grand story behind Christmas, and prepare ourselves to celebrate the bedrock truth of our faith and the reason for our hope: Christ has come, and He shall come again.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    HI PLEASE BE MOAR WALL OF TEXTY PLEASE I DON’T THINK MY EYEBALLS HURT ENOUGH YET.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    There are actually Advent songs. It’s not time for carols yet.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Tell the local radio that. “Mary’s boy child Jesus Christ was born on Christmas Day”, and I flipped to the only other good station, and it’s football. I am not fond of sports, and my tolerance for Christmas carols lasts approximately a week and I like it best when that week ends Christmas Day, so I don’t know which is worse.

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    If there really was a war on Christmas, it would involve overplaying carols and Christmas ads; worst of all are ads with mangled versions of the carols. “O little sale of thanksgiving” – aaagh!

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Here’s a new book written by Dinesh D’Souza’s daughter with a foreward by Dinesh!

    http://www.amazon.com/Y-God-Danielle-DSouza/dp/0830765557/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=GGMRD7IO79IL&coliid=I2C46AA6234C7R

  • Lori

    Did she write that before or after she found out that her daddy was cheating on her mom with a much younger woman?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    By the way, Lori, God is a gentleman and does not go where He is not wanted.  This is in reference to one of your previous comments.

  • Lori

    By the way, Lori, God is a gentleman and does not go where He is not
    wanted.  This is in reference to one of your previous comments.  

    I don’t recall saying anything that would have prompted this as a response. Of course most of the stuff you say doesn’t make any sense so I suppose it could have been anything. You should have either used the reply function or just dropped it.

    It makes no sense whatsoever to say that God is a “gentleman”. That’s a human descriptor, but I’ll play along. If you’re trying to pattern your life after God and he doesn’t go where he’s not wanted then why do you?

    With everything you reveal about yourself you show what a poor job you’re doing living up to the ideals you claim to hold so dear. You’re bringing shame and reproach on the cause of Christ Ginny and that’s a sin.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I should have either used the reply function or just dropped it, huh, Lori?  Really?  There you are again with your wiser-than-fill in the blank controlling spirit directed towards me.  Is your real name Emily Young?   

    Jesus was a man too, ‘member?

    Jesus loves me, this I know!   :)   I will remain faithful to Him TO THE END!

      

  • Lori

    You’ll remain faithful to him by doing what you claim he would not. You’re not a lady Ginny. Gentleman Jesus can’t be pleased.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Your narrow-minded overenthusiasm is very irritating.

    Also, tossing out real names could be construed as a threat. Even if the real name isn’t even close to a person’s actual name.

  • AnonymousSam

    This. This is why I’m glad I often have to use a pseudonym anyway.

    Imagine if I tossed out, apropos of nothing, “Tell your daughters Laurel and Hannah hello for me.” How can anyone not feel disturbed when a total stranger reveals personal knowledge about you?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Zippy, the first time you addressed me here you were quite condescending, and oozing with pride.  How exactly do you justify that behaviour?  I don’t have a flat tire.  I’m not the jerk for Jesus.  I spend plenty of time with Christians I respect, as well as with those who also respect me, but I’m not sure you would approve of those with whom I keep company.  I’m not the one who has flipped someone off.
    Why in the hairy heck do you consider this blog to be a place where meat eaters congregate?  You did recommend for me to leave here to become mature in the Lord, and to return here, after I become a meat eater, like the owner of this blog is, apparently, in your estimation.  Or did you imply that only meat eaters need apply here, for they are the only ones mature enough to engage those not living set-apart for Jesus?

    I will NEVER agree to heresy that is taught in the emergent/postmodern/big tent/cheap grace/anything goes church, such as:  Jesus is not the only way, there is no hell for it’s not needed since Jesus covers all, holiness and truth are not necessary, everyone is fine the way they are, etc.  Therefore, in your high-and-mighty estimation, I will never be suited to participate in this wiser-than-me discussion.

    Are you a chameleon like Obama in saying whatever seems expedient in the moment, while saying the exact opposite with a different group of people?  You need to be more clear in your communication, Zippy, or is your skill at vagueness a necessary part of your covert communication tactics?  That way you can be everybody’s buddy, right?  It’s certainly easier to win friends and influence people that way.   What I don’t understand is why you’re not interested in being my buddy. since you claim to be a brother in the Lord.  Hmmm, scratching my head over this one.   Your slick style is certainly confusing to me!  Perhaps you prefer it that way?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    What I don’t understand is why you’re not interested in being my buddy. since you claim to be a brother in the Lord.

    Oh, you’re one of those Nice Christians then.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Are you Zippy?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    No, but you act like a Nice Christian.

    Hint: The analogy is that you think you’re entitled to camaraderie from someone else because you just ~happen~ to share some common trait. Nice Guys tend to do this to women, by the way.

  • Kiba

    Zippy, the first time you addressed me here you were quite condescending, and oozing with pride.

    Wow. You really are clueless and blind aren’t you?

     I’m not the jerk for Jesus.

    Your posting here says otherwise.

    How exactly do you justify that behaviour?

    A question you should be asking yourself.

    but I’m not sure you would approve of those with whom I keep company.

    I’m pretty sure no one here gives a good goddamn one way or the other about the company you keep. In fact, if they are as wonderful as you say why don’t you go spend more time with them and leave us alone since no one here is buying what your selling. 

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I wasn’t addressing you, Kiba, was I?  Zippy DOES care about the company I keep.

  • Kiba

    So? Not like anything here is a private one on one. 

    All Zippy said was

    Rather, I think that you could benefit from spending some time on a board where you cannot find an excuse to look down upon someone.

    That sounds more like concern for how you are behaving here and not about with whom you associate. The fact that you can read anything in there as rude just keeps saying more about you than anything else, and none of it is good. 

    Honestly, that you can come here and complain that people have been treating you poorly after the way that you have, and continue, to behave is truly astounding. It’s that whole reap what you sow thing, but then if you actually owned up to your own hatefulness you couldn’t be such a poor persecuted martyr for Christ then could you? 

  • AnonymousSam

    Fred described this very well — it’s the Christian gatekeeper behavior, where the intent is to offend. Members are taught particular ways to act which are known to cause offense, which isolates the individual perpetrating this behavior. They are taught to see this isolation as evidence of Christian persecution and to embrace it as a tribal marker. “We are Real, True Christians! You can tell because we’re hated by everyone, just like Jesus was!”

  • Kiba

    I’m not disagreeing with anything you’ve said but this:”We are Real, True Christians! You can tell because we’re hated by everyone, just like Jesus was!” Just makes me roll my eyes. What a tiresome way to live.

  • AnonymousSam

    You won’t catch me arguing. It also wonderfully misses the point: Jesus wasn’t crucified by a bunch of mouthy irresponsible liberals. He was punished as a heretic who was trying to topple a religious and political regime — sound familiar? Oh, hi there, conservative Republicans!

    You can tell when someone’s utterly missed the point when they’re arguing for old men preaching death and hatred and blind obedience to the rules — and think this is what Jesus actually wanted.

  • Carstonio

    Jesus wasn’t crucified by a bunch of mouthy irresponsible liberals.

    Now I imagine the Pharisees being a collection of granola-munching hippies, angry black women, drag queens, sensible-shoe-wearing feminists, and a few Marxists who look like members of the Smithereens. Maybe I’ve been reading too much LB.

  • Carstonio

    Sounds like the flip side of a certain type of evangelism, where the evangelists flatter themselves into believing that their religion offends nonbelievers, even wanting those others to be offended.

  • AnonymousSam

    I’ve seen that too, most often in how proselytizers are taught to follow a script when they’re sent out to recruit others — word choice intentional. They’re taught to regard non-Christians in a binary manner-

    A) Either the person is completely ignorant of the Gospels and will most likely convert immediately upon hearing them, or
    B) The person is the tool of Satan, willfully disbelieving, and their rude replies are further evidence of their Hellish nature.

    There isn’t room in this system for a person who is fully aware of the Gospels and believes differently, or has no opinion of them at all. They get lumped into the Misled Satan Puppets box with everyone else who fails to join the tribe.

  • Lunch Meat

    I will NEVER agree to heresy that is taught in the
    emergent/postmodern/big tent/cheap grace/anything goes church, such as:
     Jesus is not the only way, there is no hell for it’s not needed since
    Jesus covers all, holiness and truth are not necessary, everyone is fine
    the way they are, etc.

    After trying to ignore this thread for three weeks, I am not surprised to come back and find you still telling the same lies and bearing the same false witness about the emergent church, though it does sadden me. How can you possibly think you understand what we teach when you don’t want to understand, because you’ve closed your mind to any new or different ideas, because you’re terrified of being deceived, because you think you’ll go to hell for heresy if you change your mind even slightly on anything. I almost feel sorry for you. God will still love you if you are wrong. I promise. God has not given us a spirit of fear. God gave us love and a sound mind. Don’t be afraid to reexamine what you’ve always been told is true. Give it a chance.

  • Lori

    I’m not the jerk for Jesus.  

    This is true in the sense that you’re just a jerk who uses Jesus as an excuse.

    Are you a chameleon like Obama in saying whatever seems expedient in the moment, while saying the exact opposite with a different group of people in a different place and time?

    If you’re not familiar with the concept of projection you should really look it up.

  • Lori

     

    I will NEVER agree to heresy that is taught in the emergent/postmodern/big tent/cheap grace/anything goes church 

    This is really rich coming from someone who doesn’t go to church.

  • Zippy

    Re. Ginny’s wall-of-text post on Advent Season one day ago: See, now THAT’s an invitation! THAT is the sort of thing that might make a nonbeliever say, “Huh, that sounds interesting, and they sound like they’ve found something good. Whatever that is, I want more of it. I wonder if I ask, will they tell me more …” 

    Basically, hooray!

    Now, on to your follow-up post, not quite as good:

    Ginny, you may be the first person to ever call me “slick.” Slick requires more smarts than I have. As for supposedly being changeable, I rarely post and we hadn’t even met before, so I haven’t even had a chance to be “unclear” in communication as you claimed. 

    Most people don’t have any trouble understanding me.

    Or is your skill at vagueness a necessary part of your covert communication tactics?

    I’d love to refute that, but I have no idea what you just said!

    That way you can be everybody’s buddy, right?

    Well, I’m Christian, pro-life (which includes pre-born, after-they’re-born, hospice-not-hopeless, and anti-capital-punishment), so, no, I’m probably not a lot of people’s buddy at all, at all.

    Btw there is no political party which is truly pro-life by that definition. This party calls these people people, that party calls those people people. Only God seems interested in all of them.

    I apologize for any condescension or pride I may have shown. But as to why you would think that such were my intentions, my guess is that because you don’t know me, you assumed the worst about me. So you in turn assume I was assuming the worst about you.

    How do I justify telling you about some great Christian websites that I thought might be more to your tastes? The same way I would justify inviting you to my brick-and-mortar church if we met in person, or recommending a great Christian book or new Christian music group. I thought you’d like them, dangit!

    (For those who watch Everybody Loves Raymond, episode “The Christmas Picture,” does this sound familiar? “This is the first gift I’m giving [Mom] that has even a chance of working. Remember the toaster? The aquarium? The Fruit of the Friggin’ Month Club? Don’t you see? I thought she would like this because she told me she would!”)

    So, milk-and-meat are NOT meant as insults, although you may have taken them as such. You genuinely appeared to be in discomfort … and to be expressing it by taking it out on others. That gave the impression that you only came here to beat people up, which if that wasn’t your intention, one would assume you’d stop when you realized you were hurting people. And you are. You’re hurting our Christian witness to fellow human beings created in the image of God and for whom Christ died, if they will receive and believe.

    Let me ask a few questions, if I may, You don’t have to answer.

    1. If you knew for a fact that not one nonbeliever on this board would come to Christ — that the number of believers on this website will never increase — would you still hang out here? If yes, what would you be hoping to accomplish? If not, why not?

    2. If you knew for a fact that not one nonbeliever would come to Christ because of your witness, specifically, would you be pleased, or distressed, or other?

    3. If you knew for a fact that even one nonbeliever who might have come to Christ ultimately decided against doing so because of your witness, specifically, what would be your reaction?

    4. If even one nonbeliever came to Christ not because of your witness but in spite of it, that you were an obstacle to their salvation but they did get saved anyway, what would be your reaction?

    Dick Staub wrestled with some of these questions in his book Too Christian, Too Pagan. Several of the posters, including the webhost, have recommended it. You might like it, or at least find it interesting.

    Again, I’m really, truly, not trying to give you a hard time. I really am concerned. And if I’m not as quick to respond as the rest, it’s not a dodge. I’m just broke, and Internet was one of the little luxuries to go.

  • Zippy

    I probably should answer my own questions.

    1. I ought to. What I’d hope to accomplish: whatever it was that Jesus accomplished when He fed the multitudes, healed the sick, and raised the dead even though He knew that they all would desert Him when He was arrested.

    2. I’d be horrified.

    3. More horrified than that, if that’s even possible.

    4. Staggeringly grateful and feeling pretty awful at the same time.

    Of course I need to try to be a good witness for the sake of Christ and His Kingdom, and for the sake of others, so that it doesn’t become it’s-all-about-me.

  • EllieMurasaki

    1. If you knew for a fact that not one nonbeliever on this board would come to Christ — that the number of believers on this website will never increase — would you still hang out here? If yes, what would you be hoping to accomplish? If not, why not?

    1. I ought to. What I’d hope to accomplish: whatever it was that Jesus accomplished when He fed the multitudes, healed the sick, and raised the dead even though He knew that they all would desert Him when He was arrested.

    I’m not sure those are comparable. Pre-Jesus-ministry, there were people who were hungry, sick, or dead. Post-Jesus-ministry, there were people who were fed, health, and alive. Pre-Christian-ministry-on-messageboard and post-Christian-ministry-on-messageboard look very much alike, unless the Christian is Ms. Allen in which case the post- has a lot more frustration at the world, at Christians, and at Ms. Allen than the pre-.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Zip, ever read Bonhoeffer by Eric Metaxas?  If not, you definitely should.

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • VMink

    I… what?  This is still going?  Still going *strong?*  Bwah?

    I’m confused.  I thought this person was just an unfortunate soul whose Facebook identity was hacked and used by a Poe?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    So apparently Ginny Bain Allen has nothing but fulsome praise for this century’s Jerry Falwell.

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    That’s only because he was smarter than Jimmy Swaggart, who got busted banging two hookers at the same time.

  • P J Evans

     Well, Falwell’s also been dead for long enough to be dropping of people’s radar. Unfortunately way too many of his worse ideas are still around.

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • AnonymousSam

    Neat. It’s always cool to find ancient literature of any kind (very little of it survives the centuries). There was a story not long ago on a fragment they found wherein Jesus makes reference to “my wife” that I’m a little more interested in though.

    I have to disagree with Robert Jeffress that finding fragments of the Bible affirms the trustworthiness of the Bible though. The Bible is changed all the time (just compare any two translations) and large parts of the sections regarded as historical document (such as Exodus) still have little to no corroborating material. The Epic of Gilgamesh has as much, if not more chance of being a record of historical fact.

    It remains a collection of books, some good, some absolutely atrocious.

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • AnonymousSam

    According to the Bible, Jesus invoked a very different visage of God when he criticized religious leaders and wealthy overlords, and they also called it sacrilege. Are you saying you would have agreed that this mouthy brat should have been imprisoned for blaspheming against God?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I’m not sayin’ anything.  I simply posted the article, Sam.

  • AnonymousSam

    Does that mean you’re just spamming for the sake of spamming, then? Flagrantly breaking the site’s TOS?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I am definitely not spamming, Sam.  I’m not automatically sending out random messages to a number of sites at once, and what I post here is relevant material.  My postings are certainly not intended to be disruptive.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    The Tyranny of ‘Reproductive Justice’
    All Things Examined
    By: Regis Nicoll|Published: November 12, 2012 4:29 PM
    Topics: Life Issues, Politics & Government, Religion & Society, Sexual Ethics

     PRINT
     RSS
    Share on facebook_likeEMAIL37Ever since Sandra Fluke made a splash at the congressional hearings on the Affordable Care Act, we’ve been hearing a lot about “reproductive justice.” Not so surprising, perhaps, given that Fluke is a past president of the Georgetown chapter of Law Students for Reproductive Justice.But what is “reproductive justice”?It strikes me as a rather strange pairing of words, for what does justice have to do with a basic biological function? And if reproductive justice exists, why not respirative, digestive, or cardio-vascular justice? If you find yourself similarly puzzled, SisterSong, a self-described “women of color” advocacy group, explains,“Reproductive justice [is] the right to have children, not have children, and to parent the children we have in safe and healthy environments . . . based on the human right to make personal decisions about one’s life.”And where is the right to have children, or not, a problem, outside of China with its “one-child” policy? Certainly not in the United States, where a 40 percent birth rate to unwed mothers is evidence that neither marital status, church teaching, nor social stigma is a barrier to those “personal decisions about one’s life.”What’s more, with over 1 million abortions per year, even a woman who is carrying a child doesn’t have to bear it if she doesn’t want to—and that includes pregnant minors who can so decide, free from parental permission or notification.Considering the recently passed legislation in New York City to restrict the sale of sugary drinks, maybe a bigger threat is to “dietary justice”—that is, “the right to drink, not to drink, and to enjoy the beverages of our choice.”What about . . .Conspicuously absent from the Cause is any mention of the other essential party in reproduction: men. For instance, SisterSong goes on to say that “the obligation of government and society to ensure that the conditions are suitable for implementing one’s decisions is important for women of color.” (Emphasis added). But not for men, or at least men of color?What about the injustice to the man who has no legal recourse to oppose his girlfriend’s or wife’s decision to abort his child? What about the gender bias in a court system that awards child custody preferentially to mothers, even in cases where real differences in parental fitness and ability are documented? What about a health care law that requires women’s, but not men’s, contraception services to be provided for free?True justice requires that if one party in the reproduction process is owed duty, so is the other. Applying “reproductive justice” exclusively to the “rights” of women is like applying criminal justice only to the rights of plaintiffs and not defendants, or vice versa.Then there’s that “obligation of government and society” part. What about personal obligation? You know, the responsibility of individuals to control their passions and behaviors for their good and that of society, with particular concern in this case for those born, those waiting to be born, and those who could be born. Again, the Cause is silent.What it is not silent about is the desire for sexual expression unencumbered by personal consequences and cost.Consequence-free sexIn Sandra Fluke’s congressional testimony, she defended the Health and Human Services (HHS) mandate, a requirement under the ACA that unburdens women from the financial costs of consequence-free (via contraception, abortion-inducing drugs, and sterilization) sex at their employers’ expense, despite any religious objections their employers might have.Emerging from the hearing as the fresh, new face of the lifestyle left, Fluke so charmed the Democratic National Committee that she was awarded a prime-time speaking slot at their convention, where she extended her 15 minutes of fame for a few minutes more.But the goal of the Cause goes beyond liberating women from the costs and consequences of their “personal decisions about life”; it aims to free them from shame of those decisions as well.For instance, A Is For is a reproductive justice movement “challenging the traditional meaning of the scarlet letter by encouraging women, and the men who support them, to wear the A proudly.” (Men, it will be noted, are referenced only in the context of supporting the decisions of the women in their lives.) Their inspiration comes from “Nathaniel Hawthorne’s fictional heroine . . . Hester Prynne,” a woman who, as they put it, was “branded by her fellows for daring to live a life according to her own conscience.”So, a married woman who commits adultery and has another man’s child is not immoral, impious, or even imprudent; she’s heroic for following her own moral lights. That takes calling good evil and evil good to a whole new level.A Is For parallels the tasteless “I had an abortion” T-shirt drive started by Jennifer Baumgardner, promoted by Planned Parenthood, and currently causing quite a stir at one college campus.According to Glora Feldt of PP, the purpose of the T-shirt is “to challenge the silence and shame” surrounding abortion. I’m sure the effect that shame has on the balance sheet of the nation’s top abortion provider is of no concern to Ms. Feldt.That shame, Baumgardner tells us, is that:“We’re called ‘sluts’ and ‘prostitutes.’” [I’m with you here, Jennifer—name-calling, and those who do it, are wrong.]“We’re told to ‘put an aspirin’ between our legs.” [Well, if you’re unmarried or not ready for children or other “consequences,” it’s a surefire method—in fact, the surest.]“We’re made to believe that it’s our ignorance, and not our experience, that drives our desire for autonomy and freedom from forced procreation.” [Now, just who is it that’s forcing you to procreate? I’m ready to take names.]“We’re lectured that we shouldn’t have had sex in the first place, as if sex were not a natural aspect of our humanity that we have every right to express.” [You’re right, sex is a natural part of our humanness—but more than that, it is essential, not because it serves to satisfy our sensual desires, but because without it, the human race would quickly join the ranks of endangered species.]“We’re told we must face the ‘consequences’ of our sexual actions, as if we weren’t already painfully aware of the consequences of life without contraception, having lived, and died, without it for centuries.” [You want freedom from personal consequences, not by restricting your sexual behaviors, but by “protections” paid for by others. Got it.]In lockstep with Baumgardner, A Is For urges followers to proudly wear the A against the “aggressive legislative assault” on women’s health and freedom by, among other things, “personhood bills.” Granted, legislation aimed at protecting the unborn is an inconvenience to a woman seeking total sexual freedom, but an “assault” on her health? Really?If you’ve been wondering what the A stands for? “The A is for Autonomy. It’s for Allegiance. It’s for Action” or whatever strikes your fancy. A is for . . . you fill in the blank.A few words that occur to me are “arrogant,” “autocratic,” “appalling,” and “abominable.” Too harsh? I don’t think so.When others are forced to pay for protecting me against consequences I find undesirable for behaviors I’ve willingly chosen, it’s robbery.When my “right” to free sexual expression overrides someone else’s right to free religious exercise, it’s religious oppression.When a mother’s autonomy over her body trumps the right to life of the child in her body, it’s pedicide.And when such things are done in the name of “justice,” it is not justice at all, but tyranny.

    Image copyright CNN.Regis Nicoll is a freelance writer and a BreakPoint Centurion. Serving as a men’s ministry leader and worldview teacher in his community, Regis publishes a free weekly commentary to stimulate thought on current issues from a Christian perspective. To be placed on this free e-mail distribution list, e-mail him at centurion51@aol.com.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    JSYK that kind of weasel-wordy, wide-eyed, faux innocent attempt to disclaim splashing crap up on here nobody wants to really read?

    Will not fly.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    What I post is not crap; it’s enlightening truthful information.  When it’s posted here, it’s not required reading, is it?  It’s akin to someone receiving an email from somebody they don’t like – there is a delete key.  However, it’s definitely your loss if you decide not to read what I post here.  Good day!

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    It isn’t akin to email.

    People who send me emails akin to your comments are equally annoying, agreed, especially when they demonstrate the behaviors you’ve demonstrated during attempts to discuss the issues those comments raise.

    But most email applications have filter settings; if you were to start sending me this stuff via email I could filter it out.

    Disqus doesn’t have filter settings, so the only way for us to protect ourselves from such annoyances is to encourage folks like you to post your stuff elsewhere.

    Of course, as far as I can tell the fact that you annoy us with your contributions does not in any way encourage you to change those contributions… either you don’t care about our annoyance at all, or you value it.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    How pathetic when every single point I ever make to you progressives is viewed as fighting words!  Why such an aversion to every word I dare to type?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Why such an aversion to every word I dare to type?

    Because, as I said a few times already, your speech is annoying.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Sometimes her stuff reads to me like that annoying incomprehensibly warbly schoolteacher’s voice in the Charlie Brown movies.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     It is possible that you have now ruined Miss Othmar for me forever.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Seriously though! When you read her posts does it not sometimes morph before your eyes into WOBABOBLOBBLOBOB?

    It also reminds me of this segment from The Castafiore Emerald:

    http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11605805/img/11605805.png

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Not really, no… the posts themselves in isolation are coherent enough, by the standards of the Internet.

    What annoys me is that her posts don’t engage much with the posts they ostensibly respond to, which prevents any sort of development of a point over time. It creates the superficial appearance of a conversation, with no actual conversational dynamic to support it. That sort of bait-and-switch reliably aggravates me.

    Of course, that’s not unique to her; there are many folks like that. It’s pretty common IME with people who see their role in a conversation as lecturing or witnessing or otherwise performing for an audience, rather than engaging with peers.

    And sure, after the fifth or sixth time that someone says the same thing in the same way, it’s hard to pay much attention.

  • Zippy

    Zip, ever read “Bonhoeffer” by Eric Metaxas?

    Not yet but it looks good. (… adds to Reading List …)

    Other things on my reading list:

    Randy Alcorn, “Heaven”

    C.S. Lewis, “A grief observed”

    Nicholas Wolterstorff, “Lament for a son”

    Corrie Ten Boom, “The hiding place”

    Harry Kemelman, “One fine day the rabbi bought a cross”

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    The Hiding Place is excellent, the movie too with Julie Harris as Betsy.  That period in history is fascinating.  Lament for a Son is also good.  I read it during a time we were dealing with a wayward daughter.  That loss was profound!  Thank God our prodigal has come home to us and to Jesus!  Here are a few of the books on my reading list:

    The Searchers: A Quest for Faith in the Valley of Doubt by Joe Loconte

    Biography as Theology: How Life Stories Can Remake Today’s Theologyby James William McClendonJesus Hates Dead Religion:  Bonhoeffer, Wilberforce, and the Power of Living Faith by Eric Metaxas10  Books Every Conservative Must Read:  Plus Four Not to Miss and One Imposter by Benjamin Wiker:  Intellectuals and Society by Thomas SowellThe Grand Weaver: How God Shapes Us through the Events in Our Lives
    by Ravi ZachariasWherever I Wind Up: My Quest for Truth, Authenticity and the Perfect Knuckleball by R. A DickeyDeath on a Friday Afternoon: Meditations on the Last Words of Jesus from the Cross
    by Richard John NeuhausOn Guard: Defending Your Faith with Reason and Precision by William Lane CraigThe Man Who Knew Too Much by G. K. ChestertonThe Mysterious Island by Jules VernePerelandra by C. S. Lewishttp://www.amazon.com/The-without-Qualities-Robert-Musil/dp/03The Man Without Qualities by Robert Musil

  • Ginny Bain Allen
  • Ginny Bain Allen

    “It’s nice that everyone in the media grants that Princess Kate is carrying a baby, not a piece of tissue.”   ~John Stonestreet of http://www.breakpoint.org/bp-home

  • EllieMurasaki

    Kate wants to have this baby, though. (Or at least I have seen nothing indicating that she does not; I do have to admit that were I in her place, no matter how desperately I wanted a baby, I’d be seriously rethinking the idea of pregnancy.) It is therefore entirely accurate to say ‘she is going to have a baby’, because if nothing [else] goes horribly wrong, in several months she will indeed have a baby. ‘She is carrying a baby’ is a contradiction in terms, but, precisely because she does want to have the baby, it is a forgivable error.

    What penalty do you think should be imposed on women who get an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    It does seem kinda selfish to have a baby in these dark times, doesn’t it, Els?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Frankly, yes, especially for someone who already has at least one kid, but I don’t think you’re actually talking about the economic climate or looming-if-not-yet-present overpopulation problem (and I am speaking of both), so would you care to elaborate on that sentiment? And while you’re at it, answer how a woman should be punished for getting an abortion somewhere that abortion is legally murder.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Spare us the patronizing bonhomie.

  • Lori

    These times are considerably less dark in many ways than most of the rest of human history, Gins. If people didn’t have babies in dark times the human race would have died out long ago.

    So Gins, what penalty do you think should be imposed on a woman who has an abortion in a urisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Ummm, when I was a child, we kept our house unlocked all the time.  These days, I daresay, that would not be a safe way to live, would it?  Merely one example of what dark times in which we live, Lori.    

  • Lori

    In the past people had to live in close groups in castles, keeps, forts and the like in order to have a measure of safety. That’s a little darker than needing to keep your door locked. Human history is a lot longer than your life, and your rose-tinted memories of childhood.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Being born in the 1950’s afforded me some wonderful years in a nation that still put God first.  During the 40’s, our government and Christianity basically worked together like hand-in-glove.  Not until the wild 60’s was God kicked to the curb, and all hell broke loose, due in large part to folks in hot pursuit of “free love.”  No, I most certainly do not view my childhood through rose-tinted glasses, for I have suffered greatly throughout much of my life.     

  • EllieMurasaki

    our government and Christianity basically worked together like hand-in-glove

    And you don’t see, given the presence of nonChristian citizens and the many and vociferous conflicts between various flavors of Christianity, that there might be a slight problem with that?
    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

    (ImaPseudonym, who’re you addressing? The email notif didn’t show that that was a reply to anything.)

  • Ima Pseudonym

     Oh?  Sorry.  Didn’t think to hit “reply,” I just hit “post as…”  I was in kind of a hurry. 

  • Ima Pseudonym

     I was merely curious as to her answer (if any) myself.  This shall most likely be the last time I post in this thread, as I don’t really have a dog in this fight, so…carry on?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    During the 40’s, our government and Christianity basically worked together like hand-in-glove.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA um no

    “Under God” wasn’t added to the pledge until the 1950s.

    And I think you mean “our government and business”, because there was this little matter of directing a war effort and marshalling the entire US economy to that end.

    Praying to God didn’t blow up Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    Nuclear physics did. Something I happen to actually be qualified to speak about, by the way.

  • Lori

     

    Oh, and the motto on your currency back then? “E Pluribus Unum.”   

    One of my fondest hopes it to live long enough to see us to bring “E Pluribus Unum” back. That’s what we should be striving for and that’s what should be on the money, not an untrue statement* about a deity that a significant portion of the country doesn’t worship.

    *Let’s face it, even when a higher proportion of the population were practicing Christians it’s not like trust in god actually played a major role in national decision making.

  • Carstonio

    Working together hand-in-glove for what end? Our government is forbidden from playing favorites among various religions. What you describe is like the government using a particular religion as a contractor, and I can imagine Buddhism and Islam and Hinduism and the other religions being angered over the lack of competitive bidding.

    Government should have no interest in its citizens belonging to any particular religions. Putting the name of one religion’s deity on the money and in the Pledge wrongly implies that adherence to other religions is unpatriotic and treasonous. One benefit of the 1960s is that many more people began recognizing that US culture shouldn’t treat some religions as normal and others as abnormal. We’re all full citizens and patriotic Americans no matter what religion we follow as individuals.

    All throughout history, different religions have arisen and others have transformed and faded away. Hundreds of years from now, the religious landscape could look very different in the US, with Christianity as a minority religion, but what’s important is that the First Amendment protections for individual religious freedom remain in place for everyone.

  • Lori

    Being born in the 1950’s afforded me some wonderful years in a nation
    that still put God first.  During the 40’s, our government and
    Christianity basically worked together like hand-in-glove.  

    You may have had a lovley childhood, but if you did it wasn’t because “our government and
    Christianity basically worked together like hand-in-glove”. Unless you want to say that treating people as less than human simply because of the color of their skin is a fine example of Christian behavior. Of course, you might think exactly that. However, even if you are just that big a racist it’s still not true that “our government and
    Christianity basically worked together like hand-in-glove” and to the extent that it did it didn’t make things better.

    BTW, you do realize that the words “Under God” weren’t originally part of the pledge of allegiance and that when the phrase was added in 1954 is had nothing to do with reverence to god and everything to do with Cold War paranoia, right?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     

    when I was a child, we kept our house unlocked all the time. These
    days, I daresay, that would not be a safe way to live, would it?

    As it happens, when I was a child, we kept our house locked all the time, and breakins in our neighborhood were not uncommon. These days, I often keep my house unlocked, and feel safe doing so, and haven’t had any problems.

    It’s almost as if crime rates were a function of neighborhood, rather than some kind of global universal variable.

    Not that that sort of thing matters much when we get into the “oh, everything’s falling apart” mode of social rhetoric. Crime rates can drop, and some people will still bemoan how much worse crime is. Divorce rates can drop, and some people will still bemoan how marriage is falling apart. Etc.

    I conclude that some people are just into bemoaning.

  • Lori

    I haven’t looked recently at the stats on property crimes, but the overall violent crime rate is significantly lower than it was when I was a kid. I’ve been fortunate enough never to have to live in a really dangerous neighborhood so my personal experience hasn’t changed all that much.

  • Kiba

    I’ve lived in some of the crappiest neighbourhoods in Dallas and it wasn’t until we moved into a nicer North Dallas neighbourhood that our apartment was broken into (they pretty much took everything that could be sold). When I was in college (late 90s to early 2000s) my off campus apartment was almost never locked. For about 2 years the front door was pretty much open 24 hours a day even when no one was home and nothing ever went missing (had 4 computers, a stereo system, T.V and video player).

    My current apartment is in a rather sketchy area and I’ve never had a problem here and half the time my patio door isn’t locked. 

  • Lori

    The only time I was ever robbed was when I was living in a house in a
    nice, upper middle class neighborhood. That makes sense since people living in nicer
    neighborhoods are generally thought to have better stuff to steal than those in poorer ones, but
    not the sophisticated security systems found in really wealthy areas.

    When
    I lived in an apartment in an OK, but not great neighborhood in LA
    county my car stereo was stolen while my car was parked overnight in the
    carport. It turned out to have been stolen by a kid who lived not that
    far away and stole a number of other stereos in the neighborhood, so it that was pretty much a crime of opportunity. (Kid was
    clearly hard up or pretty clueless and had no future as a criminal mastermind because it
    wasn’t a particularly good stereo and he left fingerprints on my car and several others, so he got
    caught.)

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     Actually, leaving your door unlocked at night has next to no impact on your safety.

    If someone gets as far as trying your door, they have already committed to breaking in. I knew someone who had their car window smashed to get in while it was unlocked — the theif didn’t even bother checking if the door was locked.

    If anything, someone’s less likely to rob a place when the door is unlocked, because *theives do not want to rob someone who is home*. It’d be a stupid risk.

    Oh, by the way, in places where abortion is illegal, what should be the punishment for a woman who has one?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Non-apartment dwellings in high-population-density areas also support such “grazing”, much as apartment buildings do, and for many of the same reasons.

    Admittedly, most densely packed areas have a lot of apartment buildings, so the two demographics overlap heavily, but not completely. (The areas I grew up in and lived in in my twenties were mostly two- and three-family homes, nominally detached, and were among the highest population densities in the US at the time.)

    Though of course you’re right that signs of someone being home deter thieves.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    For those of you so adamant that pornography does not harm, check this out

    http://pornharms.com/

  • EllieMurasaki

    Porn made in ways that exploit people, porn viewed by people who have agreed as part of their relationship not to view porn, porn viewed by people under the local age of majority (I actually think sixteen’s more reasonable than eighteen here, but there does have to be a hard-line cutoff even though maturity is a fuzzy line, and local age of majority works fine)–yeah, of course those are harmful, no one’s arguing otherwise.

    Nothing I see on a quick glance over that site tells me anything about the harmful effects of porn entirely produced and consumed by fully consenting adults. The site seems oddly focused on straight porn intended to be consumed by straight men, too.

    What penalty do you propose for women who get an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • Carstonio

    If someone argued that the material creates or enables a view of others as simply toys for one’s amusement, I might not agree with the argument but I would at least treat it seriously. Still, if that argument is true, the material wouldn’t have to be NSFW to promote similar objectification.

    But in my experience, this argument is not the one usually advanced by fundamentalists. Theirs is steeped in gender essentialism, treating this an addiction. They seem to fear teenage boys locking themselves in their rooms with their video stashes, never dating and getting married, or fathers in their man caves with their cable boxes neglecting their families. This may be related to their view of opposite-sex marriage and procreation as obligations to their god and to society.

  • Lori

    You’re the only one in this conversation who can reasonably be described as “adamant” about porn. It’s obviously a hobby horse you enjoy riding. The rest of us understand the concept of consenting adults so the thing we’re adamant about is not allowing one group of people to decide what other adults can and can’t see.

    You’re a controller, Gins, and we aren’t gong to support that.

  • EllieMurasaki

    You’re the only one in this conversation who can reasonably be described as “adamant” about porn.

    Uh, actually, hi. I don’t start discussions about it except in my own space, and I certainly don’t approach the subject from the same angle as Ms. Allen, but absolutely fucking yes I am adamant about porn.

  • AnonymousSam

    True, I’d say, with as often as it gets brought up as if it were the end of the world (instead of legitimate world-ending issues, like global climate change, the limited ability to dispose of non-biodegradable waste, etc, etc, etc,) most of us have become rather ‘adamant’ about it, if only to have a thoroughly thought-out position with which to slap the pearl-clutchers out of hysterics.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Uh, Sammie, how in the hairy heck can we do anything about the sun’s power?  The sun is the most essential ingredient affecting global climate change.  Get a grip on reality!

  • EllieMurasaki

    Well, yeah, but we can certainly affect how much of the sun’s heat gets trapped in the atmosphere, or we could if we collectively wanted to do something about greenhouse gas emissions, primarily carbon dioxide.

    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • VMink

    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

    I don’t think I’ve ever heard an answer to this question.  Not just from “Ginny,” but from, well… anyone who wants to make abortions illegal.  It’s an important question of law, and one that needs to be answered if abortion ever is made illegal.

    I shouldn’t be surprised that nobody’s answered it, but I am disappointed.

    ETA: Or, gosh… an answer as to WHY someone refuses to answer the question. But that might be getting too meta.

  • Lori

    I’ve heard an answer from several people. There are a few I’ve seen who say they’re fine with sending a woman to prison for having an abortion, but most of them say nothing should be done to the woman. The excuse for that is that she was simply victimized by the evil satan-nazi abortion doctor and needs help and understanding. Because women are poor, delicate little lambs who just don’t know their own minds and can’t be expected to make good decisions about their own bodies.

  • AnonymousSam

    Have you honestly never heard of the greenhouse effect? We can’t change the sun itself, but that doesn’t mean the effects of the sun can’t be affected by what we choose to put over our heads.

  • Lori

    You’re adamant about it in some sense other than “what consenting adults do is their own business and we should leave them to it”? I’m fine with porn if people want to make and/or view it (assuming no one is being exploited), but I don’t consider that being adamant about porn. I consider that being adamant about freedom of choice and about consent, not about porn itself.

  • EllieMurasaki

    I guess that is a better framing.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I said you people are adamant that porn does no harm.  True or not?  I can look back at your previous comments to point out what you said if need be.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Simultaneously true and false; clarify initial statement.

    Porn where at least one person involved in the production and consumption, and I include ‘someone to whom a porn performer or consumer has sworn sexual fidelity’ in that category, is not a fully consenting adult? Harmful. (If someone to whom a porn performer or consumer has sworn sexual fidelity gets upset concerning that person’s involvement with porn, my advice would be to dump their ass, but if they’d rather keep the relationship and ditch the porn, that is a valid choice and I have no right to judge.) Porn where less than all possible care is taken for the performers’ health and safety? Not necessarily harmful, in much the same way that drunk driving is not necessarily harmful.

    Porn where all the producers and consumers are enthusiastically consenting adults and the performers are using all necessary protection…what harm is being done to whom?

    I admit to the existence of disturbing and potentially harmful trends in porn. But porn where care is taken to ensure that everyone producing it is fully consenting is generally feminist in other ways, which means aware of and making a conscious effort to avoid making a film that appeals only to the straight nonfeminist male and/or that depicts the male partner as hurting the female partner and/or unconcerned about her consent without first having a bit where he asks for her safeword or, better, negotiates the BDSM scene with her. And, you know, the disturbing and potentially harmful trends in porn are mirrors, and more likely effects than causes, of very similar trends in society at large.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    That would be tricky since no one here has ever denied that some porn does some harm.

    But you seem to think that men watching porn is the leading cause of divorce. Because you are a profoundly stupid person.

    And btw, in places where abortion is illegal, what should be the punishment for a woman who has one?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    I did not make up the fact that pornography is the leading cause of divorce.  Facts is facts.  Of course, folks will always believe what they want to believe, no matter what the truth is.  I appreciate your kind words, small man.

  • Lori

     

    Of course, folks will always believe what they want to believe, no matter what the truth is.   

    You’d know.

    You may not have made up the “fact” that pornography is the leading cause of divorce, but someone did. Facts are facts, but that is not a fact. When you repeat it you are spreading untruths. That’s an awful lot like lying Ginny. 

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     

    I did not make up the fact that pornography is the leading cause of
    divorce.  Facts is facts.  Of course, folks will always believe what
    they want to believe, no matter what the truth is.  I appreciate your
    kind words, small man.

    Here’s the thing about facts. They exist in the real world where people can validate them. If pornography were the leading cause of divorce, there would be some evidence of it. There would be any evidence of it. Instead of zero evidence of it. We have shown evidence that it is not, you have shown no evidence that it is.

    Oh, two questions: If a woman has an abortion in a place where abortions are illegal, what should be her punishment?

    Second: If a person swears she’s leqving and never coming back, then a few minutes later continues to post slander and lies, how is that compatible with Jesus’s general position in favor of honesty?

  • AnonymousSam

    I went hunting and couldn’t find a consensus between sites about why divorce happens. Most of them blamed either money or infidelity. I suppose if you’re of the money that looking at pornography constitutes cheating on your spouse (the Bible does say words which can be interpreted as this– Matthew 5:28), then pornography = infidelity.

  • Lori

     

    I can look back at your previous comments to point out what you said if need be.   

    Please do.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    It ain’t worth it.  I’m done.

  • Lori

     

    It ain’t worth it.  I’m done.   

    Since you’re still posting, this is a lie. Lying is a sin Ginny. Are you going to go to church on Sunday and confess and ask for prayers?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    You, Lori, are adamant that porn does not harm.  It matters not what you think about it, for you are wrong, and that’s the truth – GONG!

  • Lori

    You, Gins, have poor reading comprehension. Not that we didn’t already know that.

    You’re just a controller Gins.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Wait, I’m confused. Is she wrong about the fact that she’s not adamant? And if it doesn’t matter, then why are you talking about it?

    You seem to have a hard time constructing a logical argument. Are you sure you’re an actual person and not some kind of chatterbot that just strings random words together?

    Also, in places where abortion is legally considered murder, what punishment would you propose for women who have abortions? Also, if a woman miscarries because of an accident, but it’s a forseeable accident, like she falls down the stairs but she could have avoided it by keeping stuff off the landing, what punishment should she receive for negligent homicide?  Also, if a woman puts on weight suddenly, but then leaves town and comes back  thinner,  is that probable cause to get a warrant? Is it permissable under the fourth ammendment to have the police search her uterus for evidence of an aborted pregnancy?  Will women be required to publically post proof of menstruation every month so that the police know they aren’t pregnant? Since a quarter of all pregnancies naturally end in miscarriage, how much of a tax increase would you support to pay for the forensic teams needed to investigate every miscarriage to determine if it was natural or an abortion? If a fetus dies and doesn’t naturally eject itself, how long should it be left in place while forensic investigators search the crime scene to determine cause of death? And since abortion is illegal, what should they do with the dead fetus afterward, since the procedure to remove it is an abortion?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Does anyone here care about light pollution, how it has infested our night sky?

  • Lori

    Yes.

  • EllieMurasaki

    I’m an amateur astronomer. Of course I care. But as far as I know it’s a problem only to astronomers and to people concerned about using energy to produce light that goes up instead of down such that it doesn’t illuminate anything that the light-putter-upper was trying to illuminate. And as far as I know you belong to neither category, so why do you care?

    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Yes, you KNOW me so well, Els.  When may I expect your Christmas card to arrive?  I care because all of the profuse amount of lighting in cities at night makes it nearly impossible to view the wonders above us in the sky.  When I was a child, from my window in central VA, I could view the beautiful Aurora Borealis.  That capability has been long gone.  To satisfy your curiosity, there just happen to be amateur astronomers living in my home!  Why would you assume I wasn’t one?

  • EllieMurasaki

    Since this is the first time you’ve ever mentioned the fact and since I think you’re actually the first amateur astronomer I’ve ever knowingly encountered online outside a forum specifically for science…

    I’d do a Snoopy dance, except it’s you, and you still won’t tell me what penalty you think should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     Whoah whoah whoah. You’re an amateur astronomer?

    You, um, you know that looking at the stars too hard will force you do acknolwedge that the universe is billions of years old, the earth isn’t at the center, and the planets are not set in a series of concentric crystal spheres, right?

    I didn’t think people like you were ALLOWED to look at stars.

    Btw, in jurisdictions where abortion is illegal, what should be the penalty applied to a woman who gets one?

  • Ima Pseudonym

    What penalty should apply to a woman who gets an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is legally murder?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    It would be futile for me to continue attempting to discuss anything with you all here because my Biblical worldview totally separates me from you.  TOTALLY!  Finding this blog has been exceedingly enlightening for me.  It has made it much more clear to me how wide is the chasm between us.  We do not think the same AT ALL.  This revelation is mind-blowing, frightening and disturbing.  You do not get it that our wayward society is becoming more corrupt with each passing day……….no……..with each passing HOUR! The most difficult part for me to swallow is that you do not care!

  • Lori

    It would be futile for me to continue attempting to discuss anything
    with you all here because my Biblical worldview totally separates me
    from you.  TOTALLY!  

    We’re seperated by the fact that we live in reality and you live in fantasy.

    We do not think the same AT ALL.  This revelation is mind-blowing, frightening and disturbing.   

    No, we do not think the same. The fact that you find that mind-blowing, frightening and disturbing is one of the many reasons that I’m grateful that I don’t think the way you do.

    You do not get it that our wayward society is becoming more corrupt with
    each passing day……….no……..with each passing HOUR!   

    This is a completely ridiculous thing to say. Do you get a thrill from frightening yourself this way?

    The most difficult part for me to swallow is that you do not care!

    We recognize that your fantasies are just that, fantasies.

    Guess what? Every little thing ain’t gonna be all right while you all live and let live!

    Quoting Bob Marley? Why one would almost think you’re a total fake Ginny.

    I surely would like to know where the writer of this blog has been
    when this conversation has been going down? His silence is
    enlightening.  

    Fred never participates in the comments, so his silence doesn’t mean anything at all.

    Besides, he really doesn’t need to comment about the idiotic turn this thread took when you showed up because he’s already written plenty about people like you.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    The anti-Christ Bob Marley got it wrong, Lori.  That was my point.  I reiterate, for your benefit.  Every little thing AIN’T gonna be all right as you anti-Christs live and let live your irresponsible, narcissistic, little lives.  New age belief declares:  All is God, All is One, All is Well.  How preposterous!  Just because you might be in a place, let’s say, like Berkeley does not make you a wise person.  Au contraire!    

  • VMink

    What punishment do you feel is appropriate for a woman who has had an abortion in a jurisdiction where abortion is illegal?

    Seriously, you need to find an answer for this and to stop avoiding the question.  If you’re going to make something illegal, you need to state what the penalty is.  It’s not just a matter of people you personally dislike asking this question of you.  This will be on the books.  This will be the law of the land.

    Otherwise, we’ll just have to presume that you believe abortion to be murder — as I believe you’ve said — and want something like the death penalty for the woman who had an abortion.  I presume stoning would be appropriate?

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Answer me this, VM.  Do you think it’s appropriate for a man who killed a German Shepherd to be in prison for seven years, when another man got three years in prison, basically club med, for killing another man?  There is no justice in our so-called criminal justice system.  It’s laughable.  Seriously – pathetic.

  • VMink

    You answer my question first.  Then I will answer yours.  I promise.

  • EllieMurasaki

    I’d need to know rather more than you’re saying here about both situations. Most obviously: what were the charges? The homicide could be anything from involuntary manslaughter to murder one. Don’t know offhand what the animal cruelty charge might be but I suspect there’s more than one possibility.
    But abortion, now, unless it happens against the woman’s will (and, be honest, unless it’s caused by a violent stranger assault that she survives gravely injured and weeping for her lost baby, who’ll believe she didn’t want it?), that’s always something where the woman who got the abortion had malice aforethought and premeditation and paid someone to do the dirty work for her. That’s murder one, sweetheart. If anyone in this jurisdiction were going to accept that it’s self-defense or that the victim isn’t yet human, it wouldn’t be unlawful to begin with, and mental illness is rarely a mitigating factor. Under federal law, the punishment for someone convicted of murder one is either life in prison or death. Some states have less strict penalties, but never less than ten years in lockup.

    What should be the penalty for the woman convicted of murdering her unborn child?

    How would you go about determining whether a woman murdered her unborn child? How would you investigate every known or suspected heterosexually active woman to determine whether her period is a sign that she murdered a zygote or a sign that she didn’t get pregnant this go-round? How would you distinguish between a woman who miscarried out of sight of medical personnel and a woman who aborted?

  • Lori

     Why are you quoting someone you consider “the anti-Christ”? If you’re so holy and righteous and Bob Marley is so terrible why do you even know the lyrics to one of his songs?

    You may be right about the fact that things aren’t going to be fine, but if they’re not it will be because of horrible people like you.

    Also, I don’t live in Berkeley and I didn’t go to an Ivy League school. Not that there’s anything necessarily wrong with Berkeley or the Ivy League.  You need to get better mindless stereotypes, becasue those are really old and really weak.

    I’ve recently dubbed the so-called Ivy League schools a new name – the POISON Ivy League schools!  

    Wow Gins, aren’t you the clever one.

  • Ginny Bain Allen

    Lori, Lori, Lori, anyone who has rejected Jesus, such as yourself, is an anti-Christ, not just Bob Marley.  Sadly, I have heard his song because in our corrupt culture it’s hard to escape hearing, seeing, smelling all the garbage our diabolical society pumps out.  Why must those who live for Jesus who is the Truth be subjected to such filth wherever we go???

    Yes, I am brilliant beyond brilliant, Lori!  Thanks for realizing it!   :)

  • Lori

     

    Yes, I am brilliant beyond brilliant, Lori!  Thanks for realizing it!   :)  

    Yes Gins, you are beyond brilliant. So very far beyond. So far out in space that brilliant is but a dot in your review mirror.

    I’m sure someone of your huge intellect understands exactly what I mean by that. Or do you need for me to type it more slowly and use smaller words?

  • AnonymousSam

    Two reasons, largely. First is that society is what it is, and you’re wrong to think it’s been getting worse over time — a recurring theme back throughout the last, oh, “entirety of human history” is elders complaining about how the younger generations are morally depraved.http://www.anxietyculture.com/antisocial.htmThe second reason is because wherever you go, there you are. Does the irony of your complaints about rude behavior not strike you as you insult people here on this blog? Including the ones who genuinely reached out to you, even after this trend was established?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     

    It would be futile for me to continue attempting to discuss anything
    with you all here because my Biblical worldview totally separates me
    from you.

    Yes, that seems likely. Not all Biblical worldviews are alienating in the sense you describe here, but yours appears to be.

    I endorse you ceasing such attempts.

     

    TOTALLY! 

    * chuckle *

     

    We do not think the same AT ALL.  This revelation is mind-blowing, frightening and disturbing.

    That’s great to hear. Others don’t always think the same way we do, and knowing that is important to successful communication. I’m delighted that you’ve learned something useful from this exchange.

     

    You do not get it that our wayward society is becoming more corrupt with
    each passing day……….no……..with each passing HOUR!

    No, actually, it isn’t. Though that’s a common misconception.

     

    Every little thing ain’t gonna be all right while you all live and let live!

    That’s true. There are a lot of real problems in the world, real people suffering from illness, hunger, pain, misery, fear, hatred, all manner of troubles. Everything isn’t all right, and many of us are taking steps to alleviate that suffering in various ways.

    The most difficult part for me to swallow is that you do not care!

    That’s wonderful to know! It’s important to be more surprised by falsehoods than by truths. It’s not actually true that we don’t care about the problems in the world, so the fact that this idea is exceptionally hard for you to swallow is a good sign.

    I surely would like to know where the writer of this blog has been when
    this conversation has been going down? His silence is enlightening.

    Oh? What do you learn from it?

  • EllieMurasaki

    I wonder if she’s following the thread or just the replies to her comments. Either way, I don’t want her to have the last word.

  • http://ourgirlsclub.blogspot.com/ Ginny Bain Allen

    Wow! How interesting for this comment of mine made months ago to magically reappear again today! I guess, like the progressive media and the NFL apparently wants Tim Tebow to shut up about living as a genuine disciple of Jesus and just go away, somebody wants me to shut up and go away from this blog. Jason Collins, on the other hand, is widely praised and admired for going public with his sin of homosexuality, with even Obama ringing him up to tell him how proud he is of him. Some president, huh? Proud of sin! Fred, you might silence me on your blog (how rude), but I refuse to remain silent about the Truth which is Jesus! Of what are you so afraid concerning my comments? Do you not want people to know the Truth?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You, um, you know that Tebow only got his job in the first place because people were impressed by his praying, and he got fired because he is a terrible football player, right? He wasn’t persecuted for his faith; he was given an undeserved opportunity for it.

    Also, what would you have Jason Collins do instead of come out as gay? Live a lie? I am fairly sure — though I may be mistaken if you are representative — that God frowns on that.

  • http://ourgirlsclub.blogspot.com/ Ginny Bain Allen

    Au contraire, Tim Tebow got his job in the NFL due to his moxie at playing football, and has now been black-balled by the NFL due to his public stand for Jesus.

    Yes, Jason Collins should keep his sinful sex life to himself, and pray for Jesus to change him.

  • http://www.facebook.com/dpolicar David Policar

    Yes, Jason Collins should keep his sinful sex life to himself, and pray for Jesus to change him.

    On your view, should people like me and my husband also keep it to ourselves and pray for Jesus to break apart our marriages and our families? Or is this unique to Collins?

  • http://ourgirlsclub.blogspot.com/ Ginny Bain Allen

    It is not MY view that matters, nor yours – only the view of the God of the universe.

  • http://www.facebook.com/dpolicar David Policar

    Perhaps. But you don’t speak for the God of the universe, so asking you about that is a waste of both of our time. And you choose to come here and articulate your view, so I choose to ask you about that view.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    That’s interesting. Could you provide a citation? Because I spent a bit of time looking and I can’t find a single piece of press from the Jets saying that they fired him due to his “public stand for Jesus”. I can’t even find anything saying they fired him due to his vile flouting of Matthew 6:5.

    I also can’t find a single reference to his “moxie” at playing football. All the records I can find say that he scored a total of 0 touchdowns during his time with the Jets, and during his last season with the Broncos, he had the lowest passing completion rate in the NFL. Pray tell, have the numbers all been falsified by the conspiracy against Jesus? Because I’ve seen quite a lot of statistics about Tebow’s performance, and they certainly do look like they indicate that he’s simply not good enough at playing football to be a quarterback in the NFL.

    Also, given that in 2000 years, Jesus has not changed the sexual orientation of a single person, are we to conclude that there has never been a homosexual person who sufficiently loved Jesus and prayed hard enough?

    Because it seems like a much simpler explanation is that if Jesus didn’t want people to be gay, he’d have had a word with his dad about having them not be born that way.

  • http://www.facebook.com/dpolicar David Policar

    Honestly, Tebow’s status is almost completely beside the point.

    Football players announcing their faith in God, and specifically their faith in Jesus, and even asserting that God and Jesus played a role in their winning a game or making a touchdown or whatever, is so routine as to be banal. The idea that being religious, or being Christian, is somehow forbidden in football is risible.

    Straight football players announcing their sexual orientation, and specifically their heterosexual relationships, and even asserting that their families’ love and support played a role in their winning a game or making a touchdown or whatever, is again routine and unchallenged.

    And all of that is as it should be. It should be OK for players to talk about their faith, and their loves, and their families, and the other aspects of their lives that inform their experience of the game, if they are being asked about their experience of the game.

    And that’s just as true of Tebow as it is of Collins.

    That said, public prayer, just like publicly making out with one’s wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend, is not appropriate in all venues.


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