American Horror Story: ‘Ex-gay’ evangelical formed murderous cult, police say

The headline in The Kansas City Star seems innocent: “Secrets of Tyler Deaton’s prayer group emerge.”

But those “secrets” refer to allegations of prolonged cruelty, manipulation, assault, abuse and murder. Some may want to avoid reading more of this story, which reads like one of those horrifying texts of terror from Genesis or the book of Judges. It ends the same way those stories do, with an innocent woman tormented and left for dead.

The Star’s Joe Robertson and Donald Bradley report:

Tyler Deaton gathered his followers one more time to his wife’s Kansas City funeral.

It was Nov. 6, and they wept for Bethany Deaton, dead at 27. … While Deaton spoke in calm and assuring tones, at least one of his closest inner circle apparently was starting to come undone.

Three days later, investigators say, 23-year-old Micah Moore would go to police and uncork the terrible secrets that allegedly occurred over several months at a Grandview home where Deaton and other members of his religious group lived.

Witnesses told of a clan of young adults making sex part of their religious experience, of men in the group sexually assaulting Bethany over months, and of Deaton’s role as their “spiritual leader.”

But Moore’s darkest admission, according to court records, was that Deaton feared Bethany was about to reveal the group’s secrets.

Moore confessed that he had murdered Bethany and tried to make it look like suicide, and, according to court documents, he said Deaton told him to do it.

Robertson and Bradley paint a portrait of Tyler Deaton as a charismatic, dogmatic and driven young man. He gathered a core of followers while attending Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas, and led them to Kansas City, to study at the International House of Prayer (Wayne Besen provides some background on IHOP at Truth Wins out):

“He believed God could fix things,” a student said.

That included, Deaton told people, fixing himself.

One of his group’s stark positions on Scripture was that homosexuality was wrong. Deaton’s stance against it weighed heavily because members said he had “struggled with being gay.”

“He struggled with it, but he overcame it,” a member of his group at Southwestern said. “It was a victory.”

Timothy Kincaid at Box Turtle Bulletin notes that this idea of “victory” or “deliverance” from being gay is part of IHOP’s religious teaching. And here’s IHOP leader Mike Bickle sharing his view that homosexuality “opens the door to the demonic” and to “flaming missiles of the Evil One.”

I suppose Bickle and the folks at IHOP would say that is what happened to Tyler Deaton, and thus, as a result of his “opening the door to the demonic”:

Bethany was sexually assaulted over a period of months while drugged with someone else’s prescription anti-psychotic, witnesses in the house told authorities. This was happening, the witnesses alleged, in a period of time that male members in the house were involved in sexual relationships with Deaton, one saying it was part of a “religious experience.”

An alternative possibility is that Deaton was stressed past his breaking point by a delusional “therapy” that promised miracles it could never deliver.

Take someone under that sort of strain, then teach him to embrace the duplicity and dishonesty of such delusions, and then train him to view the world as a Manichaean struggle between good and evil. That’s a powerful recipe, but not for anything good.

A friend of many of the people who went to Kansas City is haunted now, remembering the close friendship and like-mindedness she saw in Moore and Bethany.

“They were both introspective, quiet-mystical people,” she said.

She watched them go from Southwestern, the same as so many others year after year, to join the evangelical adventure.

“It’s like they believed they were going into a storybook,” she said. “They were going to be equipped for the end times. For them it was heroic.”

Here’s the local KCTV 5 news report (via Joe Jervis). And here’s IHOP’s “Statement Regarding Tyler Deaton.”

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  • Jim Roberts

    How utterly horrifying.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stanley-James/503792594 Stanley James

     I know two ex gays.

    One of them told me that gays support the nutcases of the westboro baptist church, whose fred Phelps gang hates virtually everyone.  These are the nuts who celebrated happily at the funeral of Matthew Shepard in WY in 1998 after he was beaten and left to die by a mormon eagle scout – Russell Henderson and a catholic named McKinney.

    He also told me that “matthews parents should have fixed him.  This freak fixed gay who blamed the prents for matthew’s death.

    the other fixed gay – a woman said the same thing re Matthews parents

    All the fixed gay biz does is drive them further and furhter into a closet of denial and get them to say the most heinous things to ‘try and save their soul – eg hteir churches actually use them for more hate.

  • pharoute

    I suppose Bickle and the folks at IHOP would say that is what happened to Tyler Deaton, and thus, as a result of his “opening the door to the demonic”

    I’m sure that’s what they’ll say. Conversion “therapy” can never fail, it can only be failed.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2VVHGFY6INZQ5SX4HLNUF4NSIE Stanley J

     REligionf rom its earliest days has made lots of people crazy.

  • http://www.facebook.com/graeme.sutton1 Graeme Sutton

    I suspect that the treatment this guy underwent for being gay is just a symptom of the problem- i.e. that the kind of family and/or community that would force that on a man is capable of all sorts of other crazy stuff that also tends to turn up on a serial killer’s psych profile.

  • GDwarf

    I could see one person breaking under a life of anti-gay therapy, but what excuse do the others give?

    I just…I want to know why things like this happen. So that we can make sure that they don’t happen again.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stanley-James/503792594 Stanley James

     at the NGLTF meeting in baltimore just about 1 year ago two ex gay victims of this fraud therapy –

    they told us that of 12 total  kids in their two “classes”  5, no kidding, 5 of them committed suicide in less then a year.  time to bring back the death penalty for the creeps behind this therapy

    BTW George rekers, head of NARTh which claims to fix gays –

    he coudnt even fix himself.  But he made enough money in the fraud biz to pay for a multiple week trip to Europe, and hire Lucian (code name) from rentboy.com

    if you check rentboy.com website – no porn as long as you dont log in,  the cost of a male escort is about $1000 a day.

    Rekers, not surpisingly, using  REACTION FORMATION, founded the hate group FRC.

    http://www.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti-gay-activists-caught-being-gay/joanne

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_formation

  • Lori

    I just…I want to know why things like this happen. So that we can make sure that they don’t happen again.  

    There
    has been quite a lot of research and writing done about how and why
    people become enmeshed in cults. Not to be discouraging, but the the
    short version is that there’s really no way to entirely prevent them.
    There certainly isn’t any way to prevent them that doesn’t involve a
    cure that’s worse than the disease.

    People have needs for connection and to be part of something larger than themselves and
    sometimes someone who is very, very broken, or evil if you prefer,
    manipulates those needs. There’s more that we could do to make people
    aware of the warning signs of an unhealthy group*. There’s definitely
    more we could do to make sure that there are fewer people who are
    vulnerable to the kinds of manipulation used by cults. Still, people
    have needs and sometimes someone really bad is going to use those needs
    against them.

    *For example, if you’re part of a religious group
    and someone in a leadership position tells you that you should have sex
    with him/her because it’s god’s will, run. I say this in all
    seriousness, because it doesn’t end well. It usually doesn’t end in
    murder, but there’s a lot of bad territory between “healthy” and
    “murder” and you don’t want to be there.

  • Persia

    I was just reading elsewhere on Patheos about two sex scandals in the American Buddhist community. Unfortunately, this groupthink can happen with just about any faith.

  • 1Catolives1

     It can happen with political parties and military as well. Rape and pillage was the order of the day for war and continues. WWII had a lot of rape. People are always at risk for following evil. Everyone is at risk. However I hold those who get deeply involved as guilty as well because joining in is simply weakness which could be avoided. 

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino
  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    if you’re part of a religious group and someone in a leadership position tells you that you should have sex with him/her because it’s god’s will, run. I say this in all seriousness, because it doesn’t end well. 

    As others have said, it doesn’t happen that way. No cult (at least, no successful cult) has you show up for orientation at 6, get your robes at 7, and engage in the Baptismal of the Holy Meat Pipe at 7:30. It’s a gradual, corrosive process that works to isolate the person from their existing support structures and replace those structures with the altered environment of the cult.

    If your boss tells you you should have sex with him for the good of the company, you know that’s wrong, because every other job you’ve held didn’t require that. Even if you weren’t sure, you have friends, family members, and co-workers who would all tell you that no, that is neither normal nor acceptable behavior. 

    A cult works to isolate you from those safeguards. By the time the Grand Pooh-Bah asks you to participate in the Sacred Summoning Rite of the Two-Backed Beast, everyone else around you either has already done so, or they will tell you it’s a normal, reasonable thing for this unique environment you all share. The techniques used by cults are common tools for manipulators: love-bombing, grooming, gaslighting, isolation, physical fatigue, sleep-deprivation, etc. 

    It’s not entirely malicious; if you define a “profound religious experience” as involving an altered state of mind, then a lot of the ‘cult activities’ (monotonousness work, fasting, vigils) are proven, non-drug-using methods of creating a state of altered consciousness. 

    Cult leaders don’t always start with malicious intent; from the perspective of an outsider, it’s difficult to distinguish between self-confidence, religious devotion, and grandiosity. 

  • Lori

      As others have said, it doesn’t happen that way. No cult (at least, no
    successful cult) has you show up for orientation at 6, get your robes at
    7, and engage in the Baptismal of the Holy Meat Pipe at 7:30.  

    I didn’t say or suggest that they did. I am well aware of how cults work.

    My point is that, as with a lot of things, it helps to have a line in the sand going in. The leader telling you that god wants you to have sex with him/her is a good one because nothing good ever comes from that. A lot of the other kinds of things that happen in cults can look a lot like things that happen in perfectly healthy groups. “God wants you to have sex with me” (regardless of whether you actually want to have sex with me and regardless of your current relationship status) is one of the things that really doesn’t have a perfectly healthy counterpart. As such it’s a red flag moment.

    The same can be said of other things that happen in cults. I specifically mentioned the sex because it’s quite common in groups that are or are becoming truly dangerous.

    Yes, indoctrination can make it difficult to realize/remember this, but as is the case when dealing with many emergency situations thinking it through a bit in advance so that you have less mental work to do in the moment can save your life.

     Cult leaders don’t always start with malicious intent 

    No, but by the time they start manipulating people into having sex with them because god said so it no longer really matters how they started out.

  • Daughter

     There are plenty of other ways that cults can hurt people, long before they get to the “have sex with the leader” stage. And some cults have abusive practices that don’t involve sex at all. A lot of unhealthy cult practices are a lot more subtle.

  • Lori

    I’m apparently not explaining this well at all.

    Yes, I know that there are other ways that cults hurt people. I thought I had mentioned that. There are many things that people should know about cults and how to identify unhealthy groups. I didn’t say, and didn’t mean, that as long as the leader isn’t trying
    to get in your pants because god says so then the group is A-OK. What I
    said was that if the leader is trying to manipulate your beliefs to get
    sex the group is definitely not OK and you need to get out.

    My point is strictly that the sex thing is a major red flag. Not the only red flag. Not the only thing people need to watch for. Not the only sign of a problem. A major red flag. Other things that cults do can seem “gray area” and hard to differentiate from normal religious group behavior. Other signs of an unhealthy group can seem ambiguous or hard to read for a person immersed in the experience, but the sex thing is pretty black & white.

    Not to open a whole other can of worms, but there are a lot of aspects to unhealthy personal relationships. Ideally people would be able to see them and get out long before it ever turns physical. It’s still serves a purpose to help people understand that if their partner ever raises a hand to them it’s time to go.

  • 1Catolives1

     The people involved in the sex wanted it. Except for the poor women apparently. And yet when the whole tale is told we may find she started out in some manner compliant and then became resistant requiring drugging etc..

  • Lunch Meat

    And yet when the whole tale is told we may find she started out in some manner compliant and then became resistant requiring drugging etc..

    Victim blaming! That’s bingo on my troll card.

  • 1Catolives1

     When one places themselves knowingly in a place of danger they share culpability in fact if not in law.We do not know if she knew of any risk.
     Of course there is never justification for rape. There is also no justification for having sex outsides of a mutually monogamous heterosexual relationship. We do not yet know details in this case and may never know enough to be sure where the truth lies. The killers deserve punishment. The victim deserves justice.
    I am simply suggesting that maybe an aware person should have already had an inkling something was off kilter and gotten out of there. I am sorry for her death and have no sympathy for the killers.

  • EllieMurasaki

    STOP WITH THE VICTIM-BLAMING.

  • EllieMurasaki

    The people involved in the sex wanted it. Except for the poor women apparently. And yet when the whole tale is told we may find she started out in some manner compliant and then became resistant requiring drugging etc…

    FYI, since your sex ed teacher apparently never told you this: If you are engaged in a sex act with someone and they say stop (or the preagreed word or signal that means stop when the preagreement includes that the word ‘stop’ doesn’t actually mean stop) or otherwise express reluctance to continue? YOU FUCKING STOP. Continuing the sex act at that point is SEXUAL ASSAULT, or, depending on the sex act in question, RAPE.

    ESPECIALLY if there are restraints or pharmaceuticals involved such that the other party is unable to remove themselves from the situation.

  • Mark Z.

    And yet when the whole tale is told we may find she started out in some manner compliant and then became resistant requiring drugging etc..

    Wow. Yeah, I see how that would change everything.

    They were required to drug her, see. They had no choice. In a way, aren’t they the real victims? They wouldn’t have become rapists if she’d just consented!

  • OriginalExtraCrispy

    One thing to realize, besides what Lori and Mary Kaye have said, is that the horrific activities grow over time. No one signs up on Monday and then on Tuesday is participating in orgies and rape and drinking cyanide-laced fruit drinks. It’s a “boil the frog slowly” sort of situation. 

    I studied a specific subset of cults, but one thing they all had in common is that while the cults indoctrinated the new member, one common element was to put them to work, preferably doing something repetitive, and slowly increase their workload.  Repetitive work that requires little thinking can create a sort of hypnotic state when done for a long enough time. Over time, the new member is devoting so many hours to the cult that they have little time for anything else. Add in physical exhaustion and emotional manipulation, and you’ve set the groundwork for brainwashing. Keep someone in that state for a long enough time, and you can brainwash pretty much anyone.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    Over time, the new member is devoting so many hours to the cult that
    they have little time for anything else. Add in physical exhaustion and
    emotional manipulation, and you’ve set the groundwork for brainwashing.
    Keep someone in that state for a long enough time, and you can brainwash
    pretty much anyone.

    Which is why this bit of Besen’s article is TERRIFYING:

    About a quarter of the participants walked in a trance-like state through the aisles muttering to themselves — a practice that I had not seen before. Some of these youths walked non-stop for over an hour, with no signs of stopping to rest.

  • Lawrence

    Those statements about what goes on at IHOP are pretty ridiculous. I’ve been there and it’s like a normal worship service. What is it supposed to look like when people pray? 

  • Lori

    Those statements about what goes on at IHOP are pretty ridiculous. I’ve
    been there and it’s like a normal worship service. What is it supposed
    to look like when people pray?  

    You think that things like people in constant motion while appearing to be in a trance-like state and other people laughing for no apparent reason while claiming to be moved by the spirit is a normal worship service? Where in the world do you go to church? Because I’ve been to a lot of church services in my life (way, way more than I would like actually) and none of them looked anything like that.

  • http://willbikeforchange.wordpress.com/ storiteller

    one common element was to put them to work, preferably doing something repetitive, and slowly increase their workload.

    I think one of the dirty secrets of American colleges is that the indocrination process isn’t all that different from pledging a fraternity or sorority.  Obviously, most never get to the stage of cults, but it’s the same path.   I say this someone who participated in a co-ed fraternity and took a year and a half to realize I had been a bit brainwashed into thinking I enjoyed it.  Once I realized how much I hated it and how self-delusional it all was, I ran. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2VVHGFY6INZQ5SX4HLNUF4NSIE Stanley J

     tiem to shut down these ex gay cult groups  its going to be a long battle but they know as much about fixing gays psychologically as I know about doing heart surgery.

    CAL has done it, other states are looking at it

    EX gay is not only a farce but its just another way of blaming gay people for being gay.

    George Rekers of Narth – who claimed he could fix gays couldnt even fix himself.  He also founded the hate group FRC, whose pres is tony perkins , also a racist.

    http://www.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti-gay-activists-caught-being-gay/joanne

     

    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/picture-worth-thousand-memories

  • 1Catolives1

     California passing anti gay therapy legislation is no better than the countries that might pass laws against blaspheming Mohamed.
    It is not as though California knows the future of science and can say all future therapy will fail.
    They should consult the Vatican which wanted to outlaw Galileo etc.
    California will some day be mocked for this move into regulating scientific investigation. It will take a very long time however because most people do not give a crap what happens to gay people. Nevertheless someday when a little pill,
    magnetic ray or even a behavioral plan “cures” homosexuality California will look to be no better than a state which claimed treating homosexuality was witchcraft.

  • Consumer Unit 5012

      California passing anti gay therapy legislation is no better than the
    countries that might pass laws against blaspheming Mohamed.

    Nnnno, not really.  It’s more like countries passing anti-medical-quackery laws.

  • Lunch Meat

    If it’s possible to use a pill, magnetic ray, or behavioral plan to “cure” homosexuality, it is almost certainly possible to use one of the above to “cure” heterosexuality, Christianity, conservativism, or an affinity for broccoli or country music. Still cool with pursuing that in the name of scientific advancement?

    If you think you should be allowed to try to fix others, be prepared for them to try to fix you.

  • 1Catolives1

    I suppose heterosexuality may be able to be “cured.”
    I suggest in a world without the opposite sex all would eventually happily make do with the same sex.

     The question is which is more likely to be the disease ?

  • EllieMurasaki

    The question is which is more likely to be the disease ?

    None of the above, fuckwit.

  • 1Catolives1

     Define F…wit?

  • Lunch Meat

    The question is not “which is more likely to be the disease”, because there’s no evidence that either is a disease. The question is, did Jesus mean it when he said “do unto others” or not? And if he did, and you believe that, then are you okay with being “cured” through bullying, intimidation, harmful therapy, and threats of hell?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     

    They should consult the Vatican which wanted to outlaw Galileo etc.
    California
    will some day be mocked for this move into regulating scientific
    investigation. It will take a very long time however because most people
    do not give a crap what happens to gayblack people. Nevertheless someday
    when a little pill,
    magnetic ray or even a behavioral plan “cures”
    homosexuality
    turns black people white California will look to be no better than a state which
    claimed treating homosexualityde-africanization was witchcraft.

    This is what you sound like to someone who isn’t a bigot. Just saying.

  • 1Catolives1

     Black is a nice color and a genetic variation.

    Homosexuality is a choice and is disgusting.

    Your comparison fails.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Okay, yes, I’m bisexual, I can choose whether to enjoy lesbian sex or het sex…what’s wrong with me having lesbian sex, and how does this apply to someone who, though capable of having het sex, does not actually have the option of enjoying het sex?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     

    Homosexuality is a choice and is disgusting.

    Ahem. I’ll let Kevin Spacey handle this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVUOGUmxJI&t=7s

  • 1Catolives1

     I get it Ronald Reagan is not an authority but Kevin Spacey is?
    I think the best comments on homosexuality and its futility were said by A. Demosthenes

  • Lunch Meat

    Black is a nice color and a genetic variation.
    Homosexuality is a choice and is disgusting.
    Your comparison fails.
    Let me guess you are unemployed and gay.
    You left out insufficient,deficient,nonproductive,fruitless,deviant,abnormal,aberrant ,pathogenic,boring and dull.

    Let’s see…
    1. Acting like subjective words like “disgusting” are not only a good basis for morals, but also convincing to anyone who doesn’t already agree.
    2. Ad hominen arguments that your opponents will not actually find interesting.
    3. A demonstrated inability to understand that your opponents might have a different perspective or preferences than yours.
    4. Completely ignoring all the factual, logical arguments that have been posted…
    I think this is a rare example of BigoTroll Double Bingo! This is amazing!
    Okay, we can stop feeding it now.

  • Lunch Meat

    Ack, by “interesting” I mean “insulting.” That’s what I get for trying to listen and type at the same time.

  • 1Catolives1

    I am not attempting to persuade. I would rather simply speak the truth and let others deal with it.
    Given a hypothetical world where it was an accepted proven fact that one could choose their sexual attractions what percentage of people would choose homosexuality?
    I think the answer would show most would choose heterosexuality which could produce children. A few might choose homosexuality as foolproof birth control.
    Also given that at any given moment there are people ready to jump off bridges there would be some who take the option.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Given a hypothetical world where it was an accepted proven fact that one could chose their sexual attractions what percentage of people would chose homosexuality?

    Do you have any way of backing up the number you’re thinking of or are you just assuming it’s a really low number because that supports what passes for your point?

  • Lunch Meat

    Given a hypothetical world where it was an accepted proven fact that one could choose their sexual attractions what percentage of people would choose homosexuality?

    So, a bisexual world? You can test this by talking to bisexuals. But you won’t test it, because it’s easier to pretend you know all the answers. You’re still ignoring logical arguments in favor of silly hypotheticals and moral ranting.

  • Consumer Unit 5012

     So, a bisexual world? You can test this by talking to bisexuals.

    And risk COOTIES?

  • P J Evans

     You can’t speak for California, so I suggest you stop trying,especially because you don’t seem to have a clue.

  • 1Catolives1

    Personally I wish all gays the best. However heterosexuality makes sense. Homo “sexuality” does not
     Example :
    If a world existed of only heterosexuals visited for the first time by aliens scientific studies evaluating heterosexual behavior would eventual be understood because they  would see that children are produced. It would be friction with pleasure and a purpose.
    If a world existed where only homosexuality existed and all remembrance of heterosexuality had been lost those studying the behavior would never be able to determine a purpose beyond friction and pleasure.
    Homosexuality in a sense does not even exist without heterosexuality to define it.
    Homo”sex”uality is simply friction for pleasure. It is not sex.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Pleasure is an entirely valid purpose.

  • 1Catolives1

     Of course pleasure is a valid purpose but sexual pleasure coupled with the ability to produce offspring is joy.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Of course pleasure is a valid purpose but sexual pleasure coupled with the ability to produce offspring is joy.

    Only for people whose life situation means they’d welcome children.

  • Lunch Meat

    Neither homosexuality or heterosexuality are “sex” because they are orientations not behaviors. You’re just displaying more ignorance about sexuality the more you post.

    Also, if we evaluate the “sense” of things based on whether aliens could understand their purpose immediately (I can’t even believe I’m engaging with this idea as if it has merit), then we’d have to get rid of a lot of things.

    You people who act like sex has to lead to children for it to be worthwhile because pleasure is “just” pleasure disgust me, you know that? Whatever happened to making love? Becoming one flesh? Intimacy? You’re the one dishonoring God’s greatest gift to couples with your legalism and shaming. Congratulations, you’ve taken a profound and awesome mystery and turned it into a flowchart.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Apropos of nothing: I don’t have the link on this computer, but somebody linked me to a flowchart. Purpose of the flowchart, to determine whether a toy is appropriate for boys or girls. Question box: ‘Is the toy operated with one’s genitals?’ Yes arrow points to: ‘It’s not for children.’ No arrow points to: ‘It’s appropriate for either boys or girls.’ And that’s the whole flowchart.

  • Lunch Meat

    Ha, someone just shared that on my Facebook. Nice.

  • Daughter

    Re: aliens observing earth. I saw a cartoon as a kid that had the alien observers concluding that earth’s dominant life form have four round, rotating legs (although some of the bigger of the species have more legs); have eyes in the front and  back of their bodies  that glow at night; and consume a liquid diet that’s pumped into the sides of their bodies. Two-legged parasites live in the bodies of this life form, and usually jump out when the life form stops to rest.

  • OriginalExtraCrispy

    I have a bad habit of assuming people who think like that must have *really* lousy sex lives. There’s so much I get out of having sex with my husband that has nothing to do with the reproductive act (especially since I can’t reproduce). 

    And hey, how about that? Straight people can have “nonproductive,insufficient ,deficient pointless sex,” too. Except when you’re a happy person in a happy and satisfying relationship, you tend not to think of it as pointless, insufficient, deficient, or non-productive. 

    Maybe you should consider finding yourself one of those, 1catolives1. You’d be amazed how much better you feel about yourself and others when you’re happy.

    (It kills me to leave those horrible punctuation errors in the text, but for the sake of honest quoting, I did so). 

  • EllieMurasaki

    Maybe you should consider finding yourself [a happy, satisfying relationship], 1catolives1. You’d be amazed how much better you feel about yourself and others when you’re happy.

    Or Cat could discover the joys of masturbation. Doesn’t have all the benefits of mutually pleasurable partner sex, but it’s still got a bunch of benefits, not least of which is my ability to, entirely sincerely and with nothing but Cat’s best interests in mind, tell Cat to go fuck zirself.

  • Karkat Vantas

    — carcinoGeneticist [CG] has begun trolling godBotherer [GB]

    CG: OH MY GOD.
    CG: FIRST OF ALL, LET ME JUST MAKE IT CLEAR THAT MY VISCERAL DISGUST AT HUMAN REPRODUCTION ALMOST OVERSHADOWS MY MORE GENERALIZED LOATHING FOR YOUR IDIOTIC SPECIES, ESPECIALLY YOU AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT.

    CG: SECONDLY, WHEN YOU SAY IDIOTIC THINGS LIKE THIS:

    GB: If a world existed where only homosexuality existed and all remembrance
    of heterosexuality had been lost those studying the behavior would never
    be able to determine a purpose beyond friction and pleasure.

    CG: I’D LIKE TO SEE YOU EXPLAIN THE ‘PURPOSE’ OF DISPLAYS OF CONCUSCIPIENT EMOTIONS, SUCH AS HUGGING AND KISSING.
    CG: SINCE BY YOUR ALLEGED LOGIC, THEY DON’T DIRECTLY LEAD TO SOMEONE HAVING TO INCUBATE A GRUB INSIDE THEIR TORSO, THEY MUST BE PURPOSELESS, RIGHT?

    GB: Homosexuality in a sense does not even exist without heterosexuality to define it.

    CG: I’M SURE THIS MUST HAVE SOUNDED TREMENDOUSLY PROFOUND TO YOU WHEN YOU WROTE IT, BUT THE ONLY MEANING I’M ABLE TO GLEAN FROM IT IS SEVERAL VARIATIONS OF ‘NO DUH’.
    CG: HOMOSEXUALITY WOULDN’T ‘EXIST’ WITHOUT TWO OR MORE DIFFERENT GENDERS TO DEFINE IT, AND A CULTURE THAT COLLECTIVELY LOSES ITS SHIT  WHEN SOMEONE ADMITS TO HAVING PREFERENCES IN MATESPRITS NOT APPROVED OF BY YOUR ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITIES.
    CG: STUDYING AS MUCH OF HUMAN HISTORY AS I COULD MANAGE WITHOUT REJECTING MY BREAKFAST AT YOUR COLLECTIVE STUPIDITY, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE WERE VAST SWATHS OF CULTURE THAT DIDN’T EVEN NOTICE ‘HOMOSEXUALITY’ AS WORTHY OF COMMENT.
    CG: EXCEPT FOR REGARDING WHOEVER WAS ACCEPTING THE OVIPOSITOR AS ‘DEGRADED’, IN KEEPING WITH THE WAY YOU GENERALLY TREAT THE GESTATOR CASTE.

    GB: Homo”sex”uality is simply friction for pleasure. It is not sex.

    CG: WHAT PART OF THAT DOES NOT ALSO APPLY TO RECREATIONAL COUPLING?

  • Lunch Meat

    Okay, normally I think shouting on the internet and walls of text are bad form, but this? Is awesome. I bow to your superior powers of snark.

  • 1Catolives1

     Are you gay?

  • PatBannon

    We need more troll chatlogs around here.

  • Lliira

     One thing we can do is teach both men and women that women are not objects to be used and abused sexually and then thrown away. That women are human beings, not things. Right now, we teach everyone that women exist to be sex objects. We might be allowed to do other things, but if we do not fulfill that function, we are deemed completely without value. And men are nearly never objectified sexually. So being sexually abused and then tossed aside is what we are taught women are for.

    Let’s not pretend that the victim in these sorts of things is just as likely to be male, and let’s stop skipping lightly over the fact that nearly every time with this sort of thing, it’s women and children who end up enslaved and murdered. Until we confront that fact, we will never, ever get anywhere.

  • Jules B

    Thank you to everyone on this blog who urged me to leave this group when I posted about it in the comments to one of Fred’s posts back in March. In retrospect, you were all right. I’m glad to have left when I did.

  • Ben English

    What’s most frightening to me is that these horrific cults are able to function and thrive practically out in the open. The mass hysteria over mythic satanic ritual abuse was effective because the details always put it in the shadows, always made it dark and sinister with clear gateways (like Dungeons and Dragons or heavy metal music…)

    Okay, dumb as that is, the fiction was built to be convincing in that context. In the 1980s you couldn’t just go look it up on Snopes. But here, these cults operate practically out in the open, with the cooperation of civil authority, and yet no alarm bells are set off.

    A cult in the name of Satan doesn’t scare me. People who seem to think those things are scary insist we take the Bible literally, but they seem to gloss over the part where Satan lost at the cross. Satanic Baby Killers? That’s the stuff of  scary stories for emo teens.

    But cults that operate in the name of God? Those are fucking terrifying….

    Except…. where’s the terror? Kansas City didn’t seem to be to terrified or even concerned until it was too late for Bethany Deaton. How many more people have to die before we realize that cults don’t get any less vicious just because they’re nominally on the side of angels.

  • J-

    Cults are just unpopular religions.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Are you saying that all religions strongly discourage their members from interacting with people outside the religion (among many other symptoms of cultness), or are you simply misunderstanding the word ‘cult’?

  • Jeff Weskamp

    John Waters, the direction of Pink Flamingoes and Hairspray, once said that cults always fascinated him because they scared him.  He said they’re basically groups of people who develop a collective form of insanity that’s greater than the sum of its parts, where dysfunctional people build their own dysfunctional family and become even more dysfunctional…..

  • Mary Kaye

    One practical, if difficult, thing we can do as writers is to fight the conflation of “this group has a theology I don’t agree with” and “this group uses abusive psychological control practices.”   Those are two absolutely different things, and when people equivocate between them it can create a dangerous impression that the only thing you see wrong with a psychologically abusive group is its *theology*.  And then, of course, someone who doesn’t have a problem with the theology receives no useful warnings.

    We can publicize instruments like Bonewits’ cult danger awareness scale.  We can apply them to our own groups and teach them to those around us.  Bonewits’ scale has NO theology in it–it’s purely about how much control the leadership is trying to take over the participants’ lives.

    We can also–practical but difficult–fight for good support services for people in crisis.  My state’s Crisis Hotline and the related support services has been extremely valuable in helping me deal with my son’s mental illness.  Cults prosper when people are in distress and have nowhere else to turn.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    Wayne Besen’s bit about IHOP in the linked article is frightening:

    There was a gigantic 24/7 prayer room filled mostly with teenagers, many
    of whom appeared to be of high school or college age. A band played
    hypnotic Christian music while the audience of 100 or so youth engaged
    in a diverse set of worship rituals. Some were seated, as if they were
    in a traditional church setting. Others danced and skipped, like they
    were in some sort of fundie rave. One youth twirled a purple fan, as if
    he were at a gay circuit party. About a quarter of the participants
    walked in a trance-like state through the aisles muttering to themselves
    — a practice that I had not seen before. Some of these youths walked
    non-stop for over an hour, with no signs of stopping to rest.

    I remember the first time I ever heard of IHOP.  It was late 2008 and I’d just gotten back from a trip to Kansas City to see a friend who lived in Dallas and a concert (Roger Clyne & the Peacemakers, because the closest thing I get to cult membership is worshiping minor deities of rock) for the weekend.  It made sense, since KC is exactly the same distance from Dallas and Chicago and kinda-sorta in between.

    Anyway, I was back and I was in a coffee shop in Wheaton.  I ended up striking up a conversation with a comely young lass who was pretty obviously a Wheaton College student.  I mentioned that I’d just been to Kansas City and she said, “Oh, I totally want to go there.”  I asked why and she said, “I want to go to IHOP.”  When I stared at her blankly she said, “The International House of Prayer,” and gave me a quick description of the place.

    This pretty much set off a, “Say something facetious about the International House of Pancakes, then back away slowly,” message in my brain.  I was still not that far removed from my own extrication from Evangelicalness and the idea of driving several hundred miles just to go to a play with all-night prayer services creeped me the hell out.

    On some level at the time I didn’t think I had much of a leg to stand on.  I’ve driven hundreds of miles over the years to see rock shows, after all.  The difference there is that if I want to see a band live there’s only one place they’re going to be on any given night.  And usually I use it as an excuse to go somewhere new and hang around for a bit.  Really, it’s a brilliant strategy for weekend trips and whatnot: you go somewhere, you know you’ve got three to six hours blocked out on a schedule, and if you’re there for two days you just go see what there is to see.  I know people who just follow bands around to follow bands around and, quite frankly, I find that more than a bit odd and obsessive, but those people are usually just harmless eccentrics who were looking for something to hold on to and found music.  The bands I know of are more than happy to take their love and money, but the bands also then will maybe hang out, have a drink, shoot the crap, and then go on their way.  Sure, they could start a cult but I don’t usually see a big impetus or desire to do so.

    The whole “I want to go somewhere just to pray,” thing, though, is freaky.  I think what it gets down to is that on a general level god is supposed to be everywhere and hear every prayer.  So you don’t need to go a thousand miles to pray.  Part of it too, though, is that I was fully becoming aware of the social control imparted by fundamentalist organizations and just how dangerous all of that can be.  So to see that sort of devotion and desire to go do something that you can really do anywhere at any time set off all kinds of red flags.  It boils down to the realization that religious leaders see social control as an end.  Most of the evangelical/fundamentalist pastors I knew were controlling on some level and most of the people I went to church with were perfectly happy to ask what the pastor thought before they did anything.  That’s a dangerous combination in and of itself.  But if you have the sort of organization where young, impressionable  people want to travel a few hundred miles just to go to your prayer service…the temptation to misuse that sort of power must be overwhelming even for people who started with the best of intentions.

    That said, one thing about Wayne Besen’s article that bugs me is that he refers to Deaton et. al as “a youth sect.”  These were college grads in their twenties.  That’s not “youth.”  These are (theoretically) responsible adults.  They really should have known better and to call them “youth” is to basically say, “Eh, kids, what’re you gonna do?” on some level.

  • http://www.nicolejleboeuf.com/index.php Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

    This pretty much set off a, “Say something facetious about the International House of Pancakes, then back away slowly,” message in my brain.

    Heeeeeee. But yes, very much so.

    Jules B: I’m glad you’re safe.

  • Münchner Kindl

     

    The whole “I want to go somewhere just to pray,” thing, though, is
    freaky.  I think what it gets down to is that on a general level god is
    supposed to be everywhere and hear every prayer.  So you don’t need to
    go a thousand miles to pray.

    However, although God is everywhere and one big part of Protestant belief is that everybody is a priest, there are no laypeople, churches still exist for people to be together.

    It’s exactly what Mary Kaye said – it’s not that gathering together for prayer in itself is bad; it’s bad if used as method of brainwashing.

    The Taize community http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiz%C3%A9_Community is also a gathering of young people who pray and sing together, and it’s very uplifting.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

     It’s exactly what Mary Kaye said – it’s not that gathering together for
    prayer in itself is bad; it’s bad if used as method of brainwashing.

    Oh, yeah, I’m not bagging on gathering together to pray as a thing in general.  that’s why I kept circling around and around the issue.  It’s the whole thing about wanting to leave the place where you know people and they’ll be (theoretically) watching out for you and going somewhere really far away just to pray that’s disturbing.  That’s basically the first step in cult initiation.

  • 1Catolives1

     IHOP has become trendy. Most who are involved are probably far better adjusted than those smoking marihuana. People are always at risk for absurdity. This was a sex crime and not a religious crime primarily. If proven true the leader obviously never loved his spouse.

  • Hica Cotx

    If you don’t have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, we don’t expect you to understand. 

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

     If you don’t have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, we don’t expect you to understand.

    Who is “we,” exactly?  is that the royal we, are you speaking for god, or are you assuming that you’re speaking for all Christians in general or the IHOP folks in specific?

    And, although I’m assuming that you’re just a drive-by troll going for boilerplate apologetics, believe me when I tell you this: I know exactly what that kind of “relationship with the Holy Spirit” is like.  I know it because it once got me worked up into such a holy lather that I spent five months breaking my brain because I’d been taught to listen to the Holy Spirit and trust it over reality itself.

    So don’t you dare presume to tell me what I do and do not know about.  Don’t you dare presume to tell me that because I disagree with your stance on something that must mean I do not understand what’s going on.  I disagree with and am terrified by IHOP and its ilk precisely because I understand all too well what happens when a young and impressionable and lonely person starts to think that they have such a special relationship with god that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to them.  It’s been nearly a decade since that happened and no long-term damage was done but I still don’t like to think or talk about that time.

    So, in short: fuck off.  You don’t know me and it’s the height of arrogance to pretend you do just so you can be superior and dismissive.

  • Madhabmatics

     Man, I love pilgrimages and the idea of pilgrimages, but a person has to know they are aiming for the low fruit when they are saying “Let’s make a pilgrimage to a place who’s name is a parody of a restaurant chain.”

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

     Man, I love pilgrimages and the idea of pilgrimages, but a person has to
    know they are aiming for the low fruit when they are saying “Let’s make
    a pilgrimage to a place who’s name is a parody of a restaurant chain.”

    Y’know, now that you mention it, I do make occasionally pilgrimages up to Madison, Wisconsin for a rock show and tacos at the closest Fuzzy’s Taco Shop to Chicago.  And Fuzzy’s, it occurred to me after about a year is most likely a restaurant named as a parody of a slang term for female genitalia.

    So the lesson, as always, is what do I know?

  • 1Catolives1

     99.99 % pray and after a few months pass on possibly better and no worse for the wear.
    Somewhere out there is a similar group into drugs and sex without any attempt to seek something potentially higher. God knows the heart and a few of the 99.99% please God and the rest are simply no worse off than if they were back home wasting time on the beach.

  • MaryKaye

    Religions which have been practicing trance-state work for a while tend to have methods in place for (a) reducing the risk to participants and (b) fending off the danger that these techniques will be used for abusive mind control.  When the techniques are picked up without the safeguards, the results are disastrous.  Look at the people killed by James Ray’s New Age sweat lodge event a few years back.  Traditional sweat-log practice has safety rules.  Ray didn’t know or didn’t care and ended up killing three people and injuring many more.

    I’ve done the chanting-overload thing.  It was an interesting experience.  But I had a support structure of people to make sure that during the event I wasn’t preyed on or indoctrinated, and after the event I had some grounding, safe space to recover, a chance to reconnect with reality, and that I didn’t drive home in an altered state or otherwise hurt myself.  In a healthy community these tools can be used in a healthy way.  But they’re really sharp tools and if they’re in the hands of greedy, evil, or mentally disturbed leaders, watch out!

  • LL

    So … being gay is wrong, but rape is OK? And murder, too, I guess. 

    They’ll probably just blame it all on Satan. That’s one of the things that comes of blaming some  big bad evil for everything – nothing is ever your fault. 

    And as always when I read about cults or cult-like activities/scandals, I kinda wish I had no morals. Because OMG how easy it would be to start a cult and make tons of bank from it. I mean, what a racket. There is no shortage of people dumb and/or insecure enough to entice into a cult. Just takes an absence of integrity and a little knowledge of human nature. You don’t even have to be that smart yourself, just smarter than the people who join a cult. Which ain’t very smart at all.

  • OriginalExtraCrispy

    Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Plenty of very intelligent people fall in with cults. The people who are most likely to fall in with a cult are often emotionally vulnerable. Someone who’s just lost a loved one. Someone who left a bad relationship. Someone with little or no friends. That happens even to smart people.

  • 1Catolives1

     Proof in point .. a lot of intelligent people voted for Obama.  (and yet it was probably the stupidest thing possible for the country). The Democratic party has become a cult for the people who wish to borrow money …and expect the government to forgive the loans. The democratic party is home to those who come to the country illegally and expect the government to forgive the crime and honor them on the day they stand for the citizen ceremony. The Democratic party has become a cult leading many to accept killing their own babies!

  • EllieMurasaki

    a lot of intelligent people voted for Obama. (and yet it was probably the stupidest thing possible for the country).

    Only if one equates ‘what’s best for the country’ with ‘what’s best for rich heterocis white men’ and ignores all the ways in which the interests of people who are rich and/or heterocis and/or white and/or male conflict with the interests of everybody else.

    The Democratic party has become a cult leading many to accept killing their own babies!

    The rate of infanticide isn’t actually rising.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     

    Only if one equates ‘what’s best for the country’ with ‘what’s best
    for rich heterocis white men’ and ignores all the ways in which the
    interests of people who are rich and/or heterocis and/or white and/or
    male conflict with the interests of everybody else.

    Not even them. The evidence is pretty strong that Romney’s policies would have made thigns worse. Destroyed the economy, destroyed the environment. Everyone would lose, rich white hetero cis men included. Their privilege would shield them from theworst of the hurting, but when the ship sinks, everyone gets wet.

    Remember that. They would rather hurt themselves so long as they ensure that the Other gets hurt more.  They’d destroy the world, themselves included, ratherthan be brought down to the level of everyone else.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Good point…but it’d take time to get that bad, and in the short term, a Romney presidency woulda had rich white heterocis men sitting pretty.

  • Lunch Meat

    The Democratic party has become a cult for the people who wish to borrow
    money …and expect the government to forgive the loans. The democratic
    party is home to those who come to the country illegally and expect the
    government to forgive the crime and honor them on the day they stand
    for the citizen ceremony. The Democratic party has become a cult leading
    many to accept killing their own babies!

    Setting up a straw man are you?

    Projecting much?

  • http://thatbeerguy.blogspot.com Chris Doggett

    And as always when I read about cults or cult-like activities/scandals, I kinda wish I had no morals.

    It’s a categorical error to assume that cult activities involve people without morals (amoral), or to assume that they act in willful opposition to morality. (immoral) 

    Most cult leaders at least start out from a position of strongly held morals. You can question whether those morals become increasingly distorted, or if at some point they are abandoned, but at the beginning, there were morals.

    Because OMG how easy it would be to start a cult and make tons of bank from it. I mean, what a racket. 

    Saying “I am going to start a cult to make tons of money” is a lot like saying “I’m going to open a business and make tons of money”. If that’s the extent of your model, you’re going to have a bad time. This is why it’s important to remember that cult-leaders are operating from a strong internal sense of morality and belief; that’s what the cult is ultimately selling: the leader’s sense of belief, the outward appearance of confidence. 

    There is no shortage of people dumb and/or insecure enough to entice into a cult. Just takes an absence of integrity and a little knowledge of human nature. 

    You don’t have to be “dumb” to join a cult, or even “insecure”. Part of human nature is to respond to confidence with confidence; if someone seems genuinely certain of the truth of their actions, we as human beings tend to want to be certain as well. That’s not stupidity, either; if Bob is an expert, and Bob is confident he’s right, then I’m going to trust that Bob is right until something contradicts that. 

    You don’t even have to be that smart yourself, just smarter than the people who join a cult. Which ain’t very smart at all.

    Lots of smart people join cults. Lots and lots of them. (waves at the Scientologists) Cults don’t recruit with intellectual appeals; “smart” isn’t much defense against gaslighting or lovebombing. You don’t need to be insecure to be vulnerable, just a little unsatisfied with some part of your life. 

    Thinking “only dumb people join cults” is dangerous thinking, because it blinds you to risk and leads nicely to “my aunt/sister/cousin/mother isn’t stupid; she wouldn’t get mixed up in a cult” dismissals.  (Or the equally popular “This can’t be a cult; I’m too smart to be mixed up with a cult!”)

  • OriginalExtraCrispy

    Thinking “only dumb people join cults” is dangerous thinking, because it blinds you to risk and leads nicely to “my aunt/sister/cousin/mother isn’t stupid; she wouldn’t get mixed up in a cult” dismissals. (Or the equally popular “This can’t be a cult; I’m too smart to be mixed up with a cult!”)

    This can’t be quoted enough. 

  • Darkrose

    “…And the voice said, ‘Daddy, there’s a million pigeons
    Waiting to be hooked on new religions
    Hit the road, Daddy, leave your common-law wife
    Spread the religion of the rhythm of life!'”

    Mind you, when I learned that song in children’s choir, it was “Brother, there’s a million reasons/Why you should be glad in all four seasons/Hit the road, brother, leave your worries and strife…” I kind of prefer the original version.

  • 1Catolives1

    Setting up a straw man are you? No one approved of the murder or rape.
    And yes Homosexuality is nonproductive,insufficient ,deficient pointless friction. It should not even be graced with the term sex.

  • EllieMurasaki

    And yes Homosexuality is nonproductive,insufficient ,deficient pointless sex.

    I don’t know about that. I find lesbian sex quite fun, and anything that’s fun is by definition not pointless. Perhaps not the best way to spend one’s time, but there’s lots and lots of things that are perhaps not the best way to spend one’s time, and het sex is prominent on that list.

  • 1Catolives1

     I retract anything that would imply homosexuality is not fun for those involved. Yes it is fun but inferior to heterosexuality. If you proclaim you never use a dildo I will accept your claim on the sexual pleasure issue alone.

  • EllieMurasaki

    I retract anything that would imply homosexuality is not fun for those involved. Yes it is fun but inferior to heterosexuality. If you proclaim you never use a dildo I will accept your claim on the sexual pleasure issue alone.

    I’m not sure I’m parsing this right. If I tell you I never use dildos, you will believe me when I say that sex involving a same-sex couple is equivalent in every significant way to sex involving a mixed-sex couple?
    If that’s the case, I am more than delighted to assure you that I never use dildos. (Gospel truth, too. Vibrators are more fun. Though I have no idea what the contents of my toy chest have to do with the relative merits of my partnered sex and how those may or may not change depending on the gender of my partner.)

  • 1Catolives1

     I cannot argue with your observation. It just goes against what little I know of this aspect of the discussion.

  • Nick Gotts

    If you’re ever really tempted, I recommend Bare-Faced Messiah by Russell Miller, a biography of L. Ron Hubbard available free online. Hubbard appears to have done exactly that, got caught up in his own lies, and ended his life an angry, paranoid, friendless man, hiding from the world.

  • Mary Kaye

    The accounts of L. Ron Hubbard I’ve read (two or three, I guess) seem to agree that he wasn’t a true believer, and that it’s pretty unclear he ever thought he was helping anyone but himself and maybe his inner circle.  But he does seem to have been the exception rather than the rule.  And maybe he did come to believe in his results after a while–I can easily see how that would happen.

    I think if Jim Jones had been a cynical conman preying on his flock, he wouldn’t have killed himself along with them.  I see him as more in the “Wait!  Ohio *has to* turn red!” category–he thought he was in control, and when he found he wasn’t, he couldn’t cope.

    (I read a lot about cults as a teen–I was a teen when Jonestown happened and it made a huge impression on me.)

  • OriginalExtraCrispy

    He could’ve also done it because he knew he was done for after his people killed Congressman Ryan and the others on the airstrip. 

  • GDwarf

    I realize that we can’t stop cults, that the cure is indeed worse than the condition, but it’s just…bah.

    And yeah, I know in general how these things work, but it’s still just…argh. How terrible it must be to be slowly ground down by such a thing, until the atrocities seem normal.

  • Jules B

    “I think if Jim Jones had been a cynical conman preying on his flock, he wouldn’t have killed himself along with them.”

    According to journalist Tim Reiterman, who was in Jonestown on the day of the shooting, there’s some serious speculation that Jones planned to escape Jonestown, but was killed by one of his own guards.

  • http://twitter.com/ElijahsFury Elijahs Fury

    Why do prayer groups even exist? The bible says to do it in private. Its supposed to be just you and God. 

  • 1Catolives1

    Science does not back up the claims in California that there is no therapy for homosexuality. 
    In an interview with NARTH on the same day, Cummings
    recalls his own work with homosexuals who wanted to leave the gay
    lifestyle during his tenure at Kaiser Permanente.

    “It’s a difficult therapy, and it’s not huge in terms of numbers, but
    yes we have seen success, and this is why the stance that ‘you can
    never change’—Ronald Reagan said ‘never say never’—it’s absurd. All you
    have to do is find one exception and it knocks down the ‘never.’ But
    yes, I’ve experienced more than one exception,” said Cummings.

    “Admittedly we had failures. The recidivism along the way with some
    would be intense, but we experience the same thing with treating
    substance abuse and alcoholism. Falling off the wagon is part of the
    treatment.”

    Cummings’s position as a past president of the APA

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    It’s a difficult therapy, and it’s not huge in terms of numbers, but
    yes we have seen success, and this is why the stance that ‘you can
    never change’—Ronald Reagan said ‘never say never’—it’s absurd.

    Yeah, nothing like tossing in a common platitude and attributing it to Ronald Reagan to signal to everyone, “I’m being scientifically rigorous.”  I believe that Nature and Scientific American actually judge their articles based entirely on the preponderance of Ronald Reagan quotations…

  • 1Catolives1

     Hey Ronald Reagan was president of the United States. I suspect if the quote was attributed to Obama you would be less critical. As an example who gives a hoot what Obama thinks about gay marriage. I consider Obama to be my intellectual inferior. Regardless you could care less what I say as well. Remember the quote was from a president of the American Psychological Association.
    I think it more likely you simply pick and choose to please your own bias.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

     Hey Ronald Reagan was president of the United States. I suspect if the
    quote was attributed to Obama you would be less critical. As an example
    who gives a hoot what Obama thinks about gay marriage. I consider Obama
    to be my intellectual inferior. Regardless you could care less what I
    say as well. Remember the quote was from a president of the American
    Psychological Association.
    I think it more likely you simply pick and choose to please your own bias.

    Aaaaaand we’ve officially pulled weapons-grade projection right out of the Trolling 101 curriculum.  I mean, seriously, that’s brilliant.  Can I use it when I teach my course on “How to Be An Internet Asshole” down at the learning annex?

    Believe it or not, there are those of us who don’t actually see everything as a partisan political issue.  If someone walked up to me and said, “I think people are capable of flying using only the power of their minds because, as President Obama said, ‘Yes we can,'” I would tell that person’s friends to try to keep him from visiting the Grand Canyon because he’d probably throw himself off the edge.

    Because, you see, someone claiming to be offering a scientific observation but citing a former president who was not, in any way, shape or form a scientist or psychologist or anything else and taking a general platitude out of context is not offering a serious scientific assessment.  That person is, in fact, talking out of their ass.  And they’re also invoking an authoritarian fallacy by pretending that because Reagan was a president that meant his words carry weight across disciplines.

    Also, I like that you just assume that President Obama is your intellectual inferior.  You got one of those Ivy League educations to back that up or are you just saying that because you’re too fucking dumb to properly assess another person’s intellectual heft?

  • 1Catolives1

    My educational records are open to all when I get a job. (Unlike Barry’s Sotero’s)
    Obama excels me only in his ability to lie.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

     My educational records are open to all when I get a job. (Unlike Barry’s Sotero’s)
    Obama excels me only in his ability to lie.

    Mind if I take a wild, flailing guess in the dark?  You’re white, aren’t you?

    Oh, and, um, what this has to do with why quoting Ronald Reagan while also claiming to be making a scientifically rigorous argument outside of your own single-minded brilliance is completely beyond me.  But, of course, all you’re doing is derailing.  I mean, you’re the one who brought President Obama into a conversation as the single dumbest and misguided attempt at an ad hominem attack I’ve seen since at least Monday.

    So, again, what reason do I have to believe that ex-gay therapy works when you’re giving me a single quote from a guy who’s only citation is a random quote of a platitude that he attributed to Ronald Reagan?  I ask that especially since the person in question’s claim seems to be limited to, “It works every once in a great, great while, so it’s worth trying, I guess…”

    This is not exactly a ringing endorsement of gay reparative therapies.  Oh, and I have a follow-up quesion: Why the fuck would you think that your original quote was such a great start to your trolling?  Please, tell me Mr Smartypants.  I’m all ears.

  • EllieMurasaki

    “It works every once in a great, great while, so it’s worth trying, I guess…”

    If the thing that it works on is something undesirable and there’s no more effective way to deal with it and this thing won’t do any harm, then trying it makes sense even with a low success rate. Pray-the-gay-away and its cousins are trying to solve a nonproblem and they hurt people in the process; either alone would mean that trying it doesn’t make sense.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    If the thing that it works on is something undesirable and there’s no
    more effective way to deal with it and this thing won’t do any harm,
    then trying it makes sense even with a low success rate.
    Pray-the-gay-away and its cousins are trying to solve a nonproblem and
    they hurt people in the process; either alone would mean that trying it
    doesn’t make sense.

    Um, you might want to go back and read what I said in context.

    I’m saying that our resident troll showed up and made an argument that amounted to that as if we should allow gay reparative therapy to do it’s thing.  I, personally, think gay reparative therapy is, at best, stupid and unnecessary and far more likely to be deeply dangerous.

    This is my actual quote:

    So, again, what reason do I have to believe that ex-gay therapy works
    when you’re giving me a single quote from a guy who’s only citation is a
    random quote of a platitude that he attributed to Ronald Reagan?  I ask
    that especially since the person in question’s claim seems to be
    limited to, “It works every once in a great, great while, so it’s worth
    trying, I guess…”

    At no point do I say I agree with what the quote I’m paraphrasing seems to say.  What I’m actually saying is, “Why should I consider this compelling and is this really the best you can do?”

  • EllieMurasaki

    What in what I said makes you think I thought you were agreeing with the bit I quoted?

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

     What in what I said makes you think I thought you were agreeing with the bit I quoted?

    Because you just quoted it and then responded as if I’d said it and meant it, mostly.

  • EllieMurasaki

    So you confused me responding to the quote with me responding to you and then you yelled at me for it. Got it.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

     So you confused me responding to the quote with me responding to you and then you yelled at me for it. Got it.

    So…me clarifying a point is the same thing as me yelling?  Weird.

  • 1Catolives1

     Let me guess you are unemployed and gay.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

      Let me guess you are unemployed and gay.

    You’re adorable.  Adorable, I say.  Actually, no.  I’m not.  I’m, in fact, quite straight.  And I’d be willing to bet quite a bit that I make more money than you do.  I can also tell you for a fact that a larger percentage of my income taxes go to the federal government than Mitt Romney’s.  And I’d say that I don’t get anything from the government, but I do like that homeowners’ tax credit.  It’s pretty sweet.  Also, 5% of my net pay goes to the state of Illinois, so there’s that.

    But, see, the reason I asked if you’re white is because you’re just parroting the same anti-Obama talking points used by people who don’t actually have any problems with the man that they can say in public without getting laughed at.

    Again, though, you haven’t answered either of my questions.  So at the risk of being tedious, here they are:

    So, again, what reason do I have to believe that ex-gay therapy works
    when you’re giving me a single quote from a guy who’s only citation is a
    random quote of a platitude that he attributed to Ronald Reagan?  I ask
    that especially since the person in question’s claim seems to be
    limited to, “It works every once in a great, great while, so it’s worth
    trying, I guess…”

    This is not exactly a ringing endorsement of gay reparative
    therapies.  Oh, and I have a follow-up quesion: Why the fuck would you
    think that your original quote was such a great start to your trolling? 
    Please, tell me Mr Smartypants.  I’m all ears.

  • 1Catolives1

    I hypothesize that the intelligence of a commentator is inversely proportional to their use of profanity.

  • EllieMurasaki

    I hypothesize that the intelligence of a commentator is inversely proportional to their use of profanity.

    By what means do you propose to test this hypothesis?

  • 1Catolives1

     Personal experience.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Go fuck yourself, you fucking fuckwit.

    There, have I sufficiently established myself as someone who uses profanity and who therefore, if your hypothesis is true, is an unintelligent person?
    For the record, the only editing I did to this image was to remove my wallet name and insert my handle:
    http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/chibicallisto/IQtestcertificatewithoutwalletname.png
    In case you need an image transcription, it is one of the certificates IQtest.com spits out after one takes their test and pays the $10 to see how one’s score breaks down. (One needn’t pay the $10, but then one will only know one’s overall score.) My overall score is 147, which is higher than that of 99.91% of people who take the test.

    How’s that hypothesis holding up now?

  • Consumer Unit 5012

    I hypothesize that the intelligence of a commentator is inversely proportional to their use of profanity.

    “Obscenity is the crutch of the inarticulate motherfucker”, eh?

    Given a hypothetical world where it was an accepted proven fact that one
    could choose their sexual attractions what percentage of people would
    choose homosexuality?

    What a bizarre, pointless question.  If people could CHOOSE who they wanted to be attracted to, why limit your available romantic/sexual options by half?

    Unless, of course, picking the ‘wrong’ choice leads to ostracization and possible violence from bigots.

  • EllieMurasaki

    I hypothesize that the intelligence of a commentator is inversely proportional to their use of profanity.

    “Obscenity is the crutch of the inarticulate motherfucker”, eh?

    I’m curious now, actually. Anyone have any idea how to make one of those Google Docs where people fill in a form and the answers go on a spreadsheet that the form-filler-outers cannot edit? I’m thinking two questions, one radio buttons, ‘how often do you use profanity’ with choices ‘frequently’, ‘sometimes’, ‘infrequently’, and ‘never’, and one typy box, ‘what’s your IQ according to this online test’, and then when there’s enough responses make a graph. It’d be a shitty study, because the respondents would be self-selected on top of all the usual problems with IQ tests, but it could be fun.

  • 1Catolives1

     The fact that some people are violent (or profane) in their discussion of these matters does not add to or detract from truth. Profanity is verbal violence.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    I hypothesize that the intelligence of a commentator is inversely proportional to their use of profanity.

    And I hypothesize that the seriousness of a concern troll is inversely proportional to the number of times they actually answer questions posed them by the people they’re trolling.  So since you’re obviously a troll and a completely oblivious one, especially since you just pulled the tired old cliche that four-letter words = lack of intelligence, I reiterate my questions.  And this time I copy pasted slowly enough for you to hopefully comprehend my point:

    So, again, what reason do I have to believe that ex-gay therapy works when you’re giving me a single quote from a guy who’s only citation is a random quote of a platitude that he attributed to Ronald Reagan?  I ask that especially since the person in question’s claim seems to be  limited to, “It works every once in a great, great while, so it’s worth trying, I guess…”

    This is not exactly a ringing endorsement of gay reparative therapies.  Oh, and I have a follow-up quesion: Why the fuck would you think that your original quote was such a great start to your trolling? Please, tell me Mr Smartypants.  I’m all ears.

    Oh, and if you ever want to get around to letting me know your college GPA and your yearly salary, I’m sure we can have that particular dick measuring contest, t00.  And then once we get done with that we can talk about how former Illinois legislator, US Senator, bestselling author, and current United States President Barack Hussein Obama is far wealthier and more accomplished than either one of us will ever be and maybe, just maybe, you’ll learn something about shutting the fuck up.  But I’m not holding my breath for that one.

    Oh, and might I point out that our current President is both a member of a minority and the son of a single mother, which makes his position all the more impressive relative to mine, as I’m a white guy and the son of firmly middle class, still married parents, which we’re constantly told by people who seem to think they’re also morally and economically superior to the President is the only way to get anywhere in life?

  • Daughter

    Really? I am unaware of jobs outside of academia that want to see your transcripts. Every job I’ve ever applied for just want to know where I attended school and what degree I received. And FYI – we know that about President Obama.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    There exist medical interventions that in some cases allow people born male to live happy lives as women. They are still relatively primitive, and will no doubt improve with time, but they’re good enough to work in some cases. I know a few. Of course, it doesn’t follow that males ought to seek such interventions. Living their lives as men, instead, is a perfectly acceptable alternative.

    There may also exist medical interventions that in some cases allow people born homosexual to live happy lives as heterosexuals. I don’t know any, but they might exist.

    It similarly doesn’t follow that homosexuals ought to seek such interventions.

  • 1Catolives1

     Yes but it does not follow that there should not be an attempt to find a cure,treatment or therapy,process or method. Choose you own word.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Yes but it does not follow that there should not be an attempt to find a cure,treatment or therapy,process or method. Choose you own word.

    If we were talking about a disease or an injury, perhaps even a disability, then yes, we absolutely do want to be looking for a way to deal with it.
    Being gay, or bi, or ace, or trans, or genderqueer, or indeed anything other than heterosexual-and-cisgender, is NOT A DISEASE. Nor is it an injury or a disability or in fact a problem at all.

    Trying to ‘cure’ someone who isn’t heterosexual by forcing them into the heterosexual mold is wrongheaded, fuckwitted, offensive, and above all hurtful.

  • Lunch Meat

    Substance abuse and alcoholism are different from sexual orientation. For one thing, if people are happier, healthier and more functional the way they are than with relentless attempts to change them, then it’s not therapy–it’s brainwashing.

    Also, one person’s anecdotal experience claiming “more than one” success is not a scientific study proving that it works.

  • 1Catolives1

     There are more than one. You act as if you do not want there to be an effective therapy.

  • Vdejesus1985

    I may be totally out of line but who is the Police officer  escorting Moore. He is very attractive.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    He looks like some actor I’ve seen before. I can’t place him though.

  • Imightbewyatt

    ‘An alternative possibility is that Deaton was stressed past his breaking point by a delusional “therapy” that promised miracles it could never deliver.’

    I wish I could read that and agree with it, but I find it difficult to feel such compassion for someone in that situation – but it might be that it hits pretty close to home. As a teenager in a Southern Baptist church, I “knew” that homosexuality was a sin and a choice. We were told that anyone who identified themselves as a “practicing” gay or lesbian person would be forbidden from attending, and “help” was available for anyone inflicted with these tendencies.

    I remember dating a girl for a couple of years, thinking that either I would grow out of my attraction for men, or that Jesus would lift this burden, as was promised to any faithful followers. My prayers often turned to mantras of “please make me straight please make me straight”, but to no avail.

    The reason I finally admitted this to myself, that I was attracted to men, was not so I could go forth and sin. I didn’t even realize it made me “gay” – as I had learned about homosexuality only through the church and the book “Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex…”. (I remember thinking “I’m not gay, I just want to one day find a man and live together as a couple, the way heterosexual couples do…”)

    Instead, it happened because I realized that my girlfriend felt something about me that I was completely unable to understand or reciprocate. In essence, by being her boyfriend, I was lying to her in one of the most hurtful way. I remember breaking up with her – I intentionally broke her heart, and at the time I was unable to really express why I didn’t want to be together anymore. I was seventeen at the time.

    So when I hear about other men who marry as a means to “straighten” themselves out, I feel a lot of anger. How can someone continue to rob their spouse of the intimacy that we all crave?

  • 1Catolives1

    Gays suicide rate has always been high and not all due to their sense of social ostracism. People who know they are dysfunctional are at greater risk all of the time. It is like saying people who are depressed commit suicide while in treatment. The therapy is not usually to blame.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Gays suicide rate has always been high and not all due to their sense of social ostracism.

    [citation needed]

    Unless you’re talking about bullying, which isn’t quite the same thing as social ostracism. I have enough cites re the teen suicide rate among people who are bullied for being [perceived to be] queer, where by ‘cites’ I mean ‘obituaries for such teens in my state’; there’s a distressingly high number of them this year. But if you’re suggesting that queer people who accept themselves and are accepted by everyone around them still have a higher suicide rate than heterocis people in all-else-equal circumstances, you need to cite the hell out of that.

  • Lunch Meat

    So how is it dysfunctional to love someone who happens to be the same sex as you?

    Also, you clearly have no idea what goes on during reparative therapy.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    (shrug) Sure, if someone wants to look for such a thing, they’re welcome to do so. And if someone wants to make use of it, if and when it becomes available, I’m fine with that. This is just as true of being gay as of being male or being white or being bipedal.

    But it’s not especially important.

  • EllieMurasaki

    The problem here isn’t gay people wanting to be straight. The problem is gay people having it pounded into their heads that being gay is abhorrent wrong nasty evil (and as a consequence wanting to be straight, because clearly no straight person has ever done anything wrong ever), with a side of parents forcing their teens into programs that purport to turn gay people straight, and bonus hurtfulness and ineffectiveness.

  • 1Catolives1

     Well it is abhorrent, wrong, nasty and evil.
    You left out insufficient,deficient,nonproductive,fruitless,deviant,abnormal,aberrant ,pathogenic,boring and dull.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Which only emphasizes my point that the problem is applying those adjectives to queer people and queer sex, not with queer people or queer sex themselves. Because I assure you that not one of those words is true.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Holy Christ, you’re a walking caricature of all the homophobes I’ve ever seen.

  • 1Catolives1

    I do dislike homosexuality. I do not hate or fear homosexuals/homosexuality. Except for their mistake with sexuality many are very nice people. Some are nasty however.
    I could not say what you are but I think your use of “Holy Christ” is profane.

  • Kiba

    So it’s basically  “I don’t hate gay people. I just think they are dirty and shouldn’t be treated like normal people.”

    Yeah, you’re a bigot. Also, not everyone is Christian and what is profane to you doesn’t mean beans to them and, really, if you want people to treat you with respect you should probably treat them that way too. That kind of means not taking one group and claiming that they are dirty, sinful, degenerate, etc. 

    Oh, and hey, don’t like gay sex? Don’t have any. Yes, it’s flippant but still true. I have no desire to go have sex with a woman, but that doesn’t mean I think that straight sex is dirty, filthy, and so on, and that straight people are degenerate freaks. 

    This whole “gay is a choice” thing? Tell me, when did you choose to be heterosexual? ‘Cause obviously you had to stop and think about your choices at some point. I mean it’s a choice; you did choose, didn’t you?

  • Consumer Unit 5012

     Well it is abhorrent, wrong, nasty and evil.
    You left out insufficient,deficient,nonproductive,fruitless,deviant,abnormal,aberrant ,pathogenic,boring and dull.

    “insufficient, deficient”.  For what?  I was unaware be were being rated.  By who?

     “Nonproductive, fruitless”.  Is there some sort of quota that needs to be met?   (Same goes for straights so “depraved” as to use birth control, BTW.)

    “Evil”?  I’m sorry, the Holocaust was ‘evil’.  The Catholic Church covering up child-molestation was “Evil”.  Selling toxic products and then lying about it is “Evil”.  Who someone boinks, as long as they’re consenting adults, is, at most, “Not My Thing”. 
    Unless you want to try to explain how two people screwing is actively hurting someone else?  Please do, we could all use a laugh.

    “Deviant, Abnormal, and Aberrant”.  Back in the day, those were also used to describe slaves who tried to escape.  or women who wanted to vote or have a job.  Or…

    “Boring and Dull”.  Not according to the ayatollahs of the Religious Right, who not only think about gay sex more than most actual gays, they also seem to be convinced that gay sex is SO AMAZINGLY GREAT that it is a CONSTANT TEMPTATION to most straights, and if they succumb even a LITTLE BIT, they’ll be cruising leather-bars and joining the Log Cabin Republicans by next Tuesday.

    (Which is obviously ridiculous.  It takes a special rare kind of perversity to join the Log Cabin Republicans.)

  • EllieMurasaki

    Unless you want to try to explain how two people screwing is actively hurting someone else? Please do, we could all use a laugh.

    Be fair: cheating is a thing. Though if we amend your hypothetical to say that neither party to the screwing is breaking a promise to sex only a short (usually one-name-long) list of people (which might mean neither party’s made such a promise, or the parties have so promised each other, or the party that made the promise has gotten permission to sex this third party from the party the promise was made to), then we’re good.

  • hf

    Be fair: cheating is a thing.

    Yes, and Left Behind’s Rayford illustrates my belief that, all else being equal, a situation with an orgasm is better than one without. Rayford’s sexless cheating hurt the other woman he wasn’t with. It probably hurt his daughter (though the story isn’t coherent enough to say this with certainty). It would have hurt his wife had she found out before her death. We can readily imagine that he was breaking some oath to his wife and her church (since the authors’ absurd interpretation of the Bible identifies lust with adultery). So not giving anyone an orgasm seems to have inarguably made the situation worse.

    (Frak you, Firefox, “inarguably” is a word. Your own Google plugin dates it to 1925.)

  • 1Catolives1

    Most heterosexuals have no attraction beyond curiosity  pertaining to homosexuality. It is not a temptation.
    If someone becomes promiscuous the need for greater titillation will eventually bring one into a need for further experimentation with the same sex. Hence some homosexuality is chosen in this manner. Also some people are so abused from some past heterosexual relationship that they may find greater comfort in the arms of a same sex person. Probably more likely for the female.

  • EllieMurasaki

    If someone becomes promiscuous the need for greater titillation will eventually bring one into a need for further experimentation with the same sex.

    [citation needed]

  • Lunch Meat

    If someone becomes promiscuous the need for greater titillation will eventually bring one into a need for further experimentation with the same sex. Hence some homosexuality is chosen in this manner. Also some people are so abused from some past heterosexual relationship that they may find greater comfort in the arms of a same sex person. Probably more likely for the female.

    Right, I’ll go talk to all my queer friends who grew up in well-adjusted homes and knew they were queer before they were ten, and tell them it’s their fault for being so promiscuous.
    That makes just as much sense as Romans 1 claiming that queer people rejected God and worshiped idols–yes, even those who grew up in the church and didn’t leave until the church rejected them.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    If someone becomes promiscuous the need for greater titillation will
    eventually bring one into a need for further experimentation with the
    same sex. Hence some homosexuality is chosen in this manner.

    Just to clarify: are you suggesting that some heterosexuals eventually experiment with same-sex activity? Or that some heterosexuals actually become homosexual through this process?

    If the former, I suspect you’re right. At least, I’ve known several self-identified straight guys who eventually experimented with me, as well as several self-identified gay guys who experimented with the opposite sex. (Of course, one might argue they were all bisexual to start with, but I try to take people’s self-identification at face value if it’s at all plausible.) Which, I realize, you think is a bad bad thing because Bible, and you’re welcome to think that for as long as you need to.

    If the latter, though, I suspect you’re simply mistaken. Why do you believe this?

  • 1Catolives1

     You make an interesting distinction but there is no definitive science that can answer this. I suggest that over time that which provides orgasm will become a stimulus. I am going to use an example some will object to but it is probably true.
    If a person was raped but in a gentle manner which lead to the person being raped having an orgasm I would suggest that a few at least might begin to need a rape situation of fantasy to have an orgasm. I am not in any manner saying a person with a rape fantasy is complicit in a rape or a fair target for a rapist.I am not expert on behavioral science but I think sexual object attraction is plastic. I confess to near pure heterosexual attraction but I suspect if nothing else was available in time any other human would be more attractive than the alternative of solo sex forever. A graded pathway to homosexual attraction is possible. Many adolescents share a period where mutual masturbation occurs without it leading to a settled homosexual orientation. If the other sex was never available they would likely begin to accept and desire the homosexual objects to a degree that later available heterosexual objects would no longer appear the unique trigger for attraction.People need human attachment and repetitive behaviors with reward can change the object of desire.

  • Lunch Meat

    If a person was raped but in a gentle manner which lead to the person
    being raped having an orgasm I would suggest that a few at least might
    begin to need a rape situation of fantasy to have an orgasm. I am not in
    any manner saying a person with a rape fantasy is complicit in a rape
    or a fair target for a rapist.I am not expert on behavioral science but I
    think sexual object attraction is plastic. I confess to near pure heterosexual attraction but I suspect if nothing else was available in
    time any other human would be more attractive than the alternative of
    solo sex forever. A graded pathway to homosexual attraction is possible.
    Many adolescents share a period where mutual masturbation occurs
    without it leading to a settled homosexual orientation. If the other sex
    was never available they would likely begin to accept and desire the homosexual objects to a degree that later available heterosexual objects
    would no longer appear the unique trigger for attraction.People need
    human attachment and repetitive behaviors with reward can change the
    object of desire.

    This is a wonderful example why the scientific method isn’t “think of something that sort of makes sense to me based on what I already believe, my own experiences, my own hypothetical ideas of what I might do in a given situation, and some things I vaguely remember from psychology class, and then publish it.”

  • 1Catolives1

    Exactly. These are discussions of understanding of ideas. I have seen no one produce “science” yet.
    I am less and less willing to accept the dictates of everyone claiming  “science” however. A past president of the American Psychological Association says the very organization has been hijacked by Gay ideologues who no longer function by science.

  • Lunch Meat

    The science is there, you’re just pretending it’s not so you don’t have to take it into account.

    Here’s a scientific report examining scientific studies explaining why the APA rejects reparative therapy. Read it and respond to it. Don’t just claim that it’s biased and therefore obviously bad science.

    Here’s a story about what they actually do in reparative therapy and what it does to real people (not hypothetical gay people who you hypothetically would like if they just weren’t so gross). Is this science?

    Here’s another fact sheet from the APA. Again, “it’s biased” is not a valid response. Tell me what’s wrong with the science.

    In fact, one of the few studies that claimed to show reparative therapy working has been recanted by the author, saying it was poorly conducted.

  • 1Catolives1

     1) The recant occurred after years of harassment similar to the harassment which occurred at APA meetings in the 1970’s. Chanting etc.invading the meetings with demonstrators.
    2) The problem with the California and APA positions is that they are biased and in the process of shutting off research in the area. Many Universities have been shown recently to have extreme bias which is preventing publishing and hiring of people who would look into areas politically incorrect. I have dealt with such bias in another area of science. I know whereof I speak on that issue. I will not detail here.
    I will read these articles but will not be accepting them as the end of research. I have a book on call from the library addressing the stifling of research that is possiblygoing on.  It is by another high ranking past leader of the APA. I will read that as well and then be able to make better comments about the articles as I know they are referenced in the book.

  • Lunch Meat

    Here, I’ll just summarize your comments about the articles for you, so you don’t have to come back and we don’t have to read them later:

    1. They’re all biased.
    2. These famous high-ranking people agree with me that they’re biased.
    3. I would have science to back it up but everyone’s stifling it because they’re meanie-heads.

    See how easy that was?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     

    You make an interesting distinction but there is no definitive science that can answer this. 

    I’m just asking you to clarify what you’re claiming. Believe me, I know better than to expect you to provide scientific evidence. Or, really, evidence at all.

    So, if I’m understanding you correctly, your claim is that if a heterosexual becomes promiscuous, the “need for greater titillation” will eventually lead them to experiment with same-sex partners, but that this in and of itself won’t lead them to become homosexual.

    However, you further claim that if this is combined with a lack of access to members of the opposite sex for a prolonged period, then this can lead them to no longer be exclusively heterosexual… they might subsequently come to consider both genders to be “triggers for attraction.” (In more conventional terms, they would become bisexual.)

    Have I understood your claim?

    Do you also claim it works the other way? That is, on your view, if a homosexual becomes promiscuous, are they eventually led to experiment with opposite-sex partners?  On your view, if they are subsequently denied access to same-sex partners, can that make them bisexual?

    Again, just to be clear: I’m not asking you to provide evidence for your claims. (Though, if you have some, that’d be great!) I’m just trying to get clear on what your claim is.

  • 1Catolives1

     I consider your response to be a bit disingenuous implying that I would have no science to back up suppositions because of an inherent lack of  scientific rigor on my part or even a desire to hide some data.

    The type of study that would need to be done to obtain what I have spoken of would probably never pass muster with any scientific review board. It would be very difficult (probably impossible) to obtain such data.
    It is for this reason that one must appeal to similar studies with rats which show the power of conditioning.
     In addition you have no data which can speak to the opposite ( but I do not accuse you of deceit because you do not have such data).

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     

    I consider your response to be a bit disingenuous implying that I would
    have no science to back up suppositions because of an inherent lack of 
    scientific rigor on my part or even a desire to hide some data.

    Thanks for sharing. You are, of course, free to infer whatever you wish about what I’m implying about your motives or level of rigor.

    It remains true that I’m trying to clarify what your claim actually is, evidence notwithstanding, as I said before.

    As I understand it, your claim is that if we combine promiscuity with lack of access to opposite-sex partners, we can convert heterosexuals into bisexuals. Do I correctly understand your claim?

    Do you also claim that we can convert homosexuals to bisexuals this way?

  • 1Catolives1

     I do not claim anything. I do suggest that this has happened to some degree in prisons and armies down through history. There is certainly enough anecdotal information for one to ponder.
    Sparta placed eleven year old males in mentoring military relationships which it is believed by some authorities to have included homosexual relations. These men for the most part were heterosexual later but it could be claimed that the personal history now would be one of bisexuality.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     

    I do not claim anything.

    (blink)
    Um. OK, then.
    I’m glad we cleared that up. 

     

    There is certainly enough anecdotal information for one to ponder. 

    (nods) By all means, ponder anecdotes and hypothetical accounts of people being converted to bisexuality through classical conditioning, if that interests or gratifies you. Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK.

    That said, it might be better to do so in private.

     

    These men for the most part were heterosexual later but it could be
    claimed that the personal history now would be one of bisexuality.

    Sure, that could be claimed. If someone were inclined to claim it, I might discuss such a claim with them. The question of how personal history relates to identity can be an interesting one.

  • 1Catolives1

     Most sexual research on this issue is anecdotal information which some attempt to organize. Science is very difficult to bring to these issues.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Most sexual research on this issue is anecdotal information which some
    attempt to organize. Science is very difficult to bring to these issues.

    I repeat my earlier question: supposing this is true, what follows?

    For example, supposing that there’s no scientific evidence demonstrating that, to quote you, “If someone
    becomes promiscuous the need for greater titillation will eventually
    bring one into a need for further experimentation with the same sex.
    Hence some homosexuality is chosen in this manner,” what ought we do in consequence, on your view?

    For example:Ought we believe that this assertion is true?Ought we believe that it’s false?Ought we not have a belief either way?Ought we assert it confidently in public, whether we believe it or not?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    Actually, now that I think about it… you say, here:

    I do not claim anything.

    You said, earlier:

    If someone becomes promiscuous the need for greater titillation will eventually bring one into a need for further experimentation with the same sex. Hence some homosexuality is chosen in this manner.

    So, I’m confused.
    Do you claim that some homosexuality is chosen as a consequence of promiscuous heterosexuals experimenting with the same sex due to their need for greater titillation?
    Or do you not claim this?

  • 1Catolives1

    The point has been made. Thee is no science which has enough numbers for a prospective double blind crossover study and there will probably never be.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    The point has been made. Thee is no science which has enough numbers for a prospective double blind crossover study and there will probably never be.

    Even supposing this is true, I don’t understand the relevance.

    I mean, I agree 100% with you that there’s no proper double-blind  study with data that demonstrates that, to quote you, “If someone becomes promiscuous the need for greater titillation will eventually bring one into a need for further experimentation with the same sex. Hence some homosexuality is chosen in this manner.”

    So, OK, we’re agreed that the data to demonstrate this assertion isn’t available. What ought we do in consequence, on your view?

    For example:
    Ought we believe that this assertion is true?
    Ought we believe that it’s false?
    Ought we not have a belief either way?
    Ought we assert it confidently in public, whether we believe it or not?

  • EllieMurasaki

    tw: rape

    If a person was raped but in a gentle manner which lead to the person being raped having an orgasm I would suggest that a few at least might begin to need a rape situation of fantasy to have an orgasm.

    In my experience of talking to actual rape survivors? The experience does not change their sexual fantasies, not the least little bit. What does often change is their appreciation for trigger warnings, in particular the one that tells them here be dragons rape, and if they think reading about rape will set off a flashback or other nasty negative reaction then they can observe the warning and stay the fuck away.

    Why am I even still talking to you, you’re clearly too ignorant to live…

  • 1Catolives1

    Is that a veiled threat? I thought I was talking to someone who desired to exchange ideas not threats. It is amazing. For a site that might claim to be enlightened it features swearing ,personal attacks and veiled threats. If you had said the same to B Obama you might be getting a visit from the Secret service.

  • EllieMurasaki

    General question to everyone but Cat: the fuck is Cat talking about when ze asks if I’m threatening zir?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     

    is Cat talking about when ze asks if I’m threatening zir?

    (shrug) They might be treating your reference to them as “too ignorant to live” as a death threat, for example. I’m not sure it really matters.

  • OriginalExtraCrispy

    They’re a fucking idiot, and they’re the type of person who revels in it, so trying to make sense of their thoughts is about as fruitful as trying to figure out why the cat suddenly tears off across the house. And it’s far less entertaining. 

  • VMink

    <If a person was raped but in a gentle manner–

    For the love of God just stop.  There’s no such thing as a “gentle rape.”  It’s RAPE.  That’s the only word that matters in that sentence and “gentle” doesn’t go with it!  How in blazes can the words “raped but in a gentle manner” even form in a Christian’s brain, let alone come out of their mouth?  Can you explain this?  Because rape, no matter how “gentle” is violent, no matter how much Barry White you play during it.  It is rape and there is no possible way for there to be anything “gentle” about it.

    Recant and retract your statement immediately.

  • 1Catolives1

     You are self deluded.
    Your perception of what is politically correct has caused you to discount that there are degrees of violence which vary in all crimes. Some robbers kill everyone and some are gentle even though a gun was leveled at the robbed. Hence the distinction between gentle robbery and violent robbery. Because a gun was used the law might make a distinction and call it violent. A psychologist however would need to make other distinctions. Just because you have an idea that all rape is horrendous (and it is) does not preclude the likelihood in the history of the world that even in rape there are degrees of violence.
    Depending on the overall structure of the event and the variability of the robbed the person might even identify with the robbers. In a war torn world sometimes the robbed might become violent robbers. I suspect those abused and raped as children are more likely to rape and abuse.  In war the whole process might be accelerated with a total breakdown of moral codes. Those violently abused might turn on others and abuse. We may be seeing such a case in the Afghanistan killing where the marine is accused of attacking civilians. You sound like an enraged feminist rather than a thoughtful observer of the darker sides of human nature and behavior.That is the approximate stage of current teaching anyway
    It is I think called the Stockholm complex when applied to some situations.

  • Lunch Meat

    You sound like an enraged feminist rather than a thoughtful observer of the darker sides of human nature and behavior.

    Yes, because the thing to do is “thoughtfully observe” atrocities from a distance, and discuss absurd, offensive and irrelevant hypotheticals about them, and then criticize people for getting so emotional about things that directly affect them. Obviously the thing to do is not to try to stop atrocities, or try to empathize with the victims. It’s not like rape victims, or gay people, are real people with real feelings.

  • 1Catolives1

     I read with horror and disgust and sadness the book ” The Rape of Nanking”
    Just because I am willing to hypothesize variables in human behavior does not make me guilty of others crimes. I am also unable to alter my discussion under the assumption i am speaking to anyone with personal experience in  any area of which we speak. I have been robbed “gently’ by a man who aimed his gun at me. It had the possibility of extreme violence buy that did not happen.

  • Lunch Meat

    Did I say you were guilty? No, I just said you’re a jerk who refuses to empathize, try to understand, or behave with sensitivity. Which you just admitted.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

    Warning, and I usually don’t do this, but this is probably trigger-riffic: rape.

     I read with horror and disgust and sadness the book ” The Rape of Nanking”
    Just
    because I am willing to hypothesize variables in human behavior does
    not make me guilty of others crimes. I am also unable to alter my
    discussion under the assumption i am speaking to anyone with personal
    experience in  any area of which we speak. I have been robbed “gently’
    by a man who aimed his gun at me. It had the possibility of extreme
    violence buy that did not happen.

    So…um, let me get this straight: you think that you reading a book about a historical event that happened more than seventy years ago and happened to have the word “rape” attached to it as a descriptor is the moral equivalent of you attempting to talk to people about the theoretical pleasures of a “gentle rape” and expound, in your infinite wisdom, about how that might cause someone to suddenly start having rape fantasies as part of their overall sexual experience?

    And you want to do this all to dismiss the arguments of someone telling you to shut the fuck up about rape because you know something less than nothing about the subject of which you pretend to speak because of your utter brilliant speculation WHILE READING A BOOK ABOUT A HISTORICAL EVENT THAT HAS THE WORD RAPE IN THE TITLE?

    You also would like to have a scientific experiment done on the prevalence of bisexuality in people who have been exposed to homosexual sex.  As such, I believe I can propose a scientifically rigorous solution:

    How about you get a friend or family member or acquaintance to go hire someone of your own gender to “gently rape you.”  Make sure to tell them not to tell you who your “gentle rapist” will be.  And make sure to tell them not to tell you when or where to expect your appointment.

    Then, once that’s happened, report back to us about how it has impacted your sexual fantasies.  I’m sure it will be enlightening for everyone and you will have done society a great service.

  • http://accidental-historian.typepad.com/ Geds

     1Catolives1: I have been robbed “gently’ by a man who aimed his gun at me. It had the
    possibility of extreme violence buy that did not happen.

    And, somehow, in all my my horror at the first part of the assertion in, re: reading a book about The Rape of Nanking being somehow morally equivalent to talking in the abstract about rape as a thing that causes sexual fantasies I missed the significance of this bit.

    Really, Trolly McTrollerston?  Having your wallet stolen “gently” at gunpoint is exactly the same thing as being physically and sexually violated “gently?”  Let me let you in on a little secret: it’s actually fairly easy to steal someone’s possessions with nothing but the threat of physical violence and with no actual physical violation, since your wallet and the money contained therein is just inanimate stuff.

    Rape is, by definition and (if it can be said to have such a thing) an act of physical violence and violation.  It is possible to rob someone without touching them.  It is impossible to rape someone without touching them in an intimate and violating fashion.  That’s why we have the term.  That’s also why it’s a different term than, say, “rob” or “physically assault.”  The act, by its very nature, has components of theft and assault.  It also has something different, extra, and worse.  That’s why it gets a different word.  Words mean things, after all.

    I can assure you that if your gun-wielding thief had taken your wallet gently (and that assumes you’re telling the truth and not just making shit up to defend your indefensible point) and then said, “Now turn around, pull your pants down, and bend over, we ain’t done yet,” you would not be saying the same thing about the experience.

  • EllieMurasaki

    What the fuck. What the fuck.

    The amount of force involved in a rape may–may–make a difference when it comes time to sentence the rapist. It probably makes a difference when it comes to the amount of physical trauma the survivor endures. It does not make any difference when it comes to the amount of psychological trauma the survivor endures, and it is the psychological trauma that makes us consider rape worse than nonsexual assault.

    Shut the fuck up about rape, because you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about and there are rape survivors on this board.

  • VMink

    Ah, you’ve outed yourself, troll.  Well done, but not well enough. =)

    Back to your bridge.  You’ve wasted enough peoples’ time here.  Go find another thing to occupy your time.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    I agree that gay people being abused as you describe is a problem, and that when anti-gay “therapies” are pressed into service as a tool of abuse (as they typically are) they become an expression of that problem, just as when attendance at religious services or the wearing of special symbols become a tool of abuse (as they sometimes do) they become an expression of that problem.

    That said, there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with queer folk choosing to wear special symbols or attend religious services. The problem is the context of abuse. Similarly, if someone is given a real choice and chooses to be straight, that’s fine. But that requires a world where such a free choice is possible, which means first putting an end to differential abuse of queer folk.

    Similarly, if someone born female chooses to be male, that’s fine, but if they are doing so because they live in a world where women are treated worse than men and they want to protect themselves from poor treatment, that’s problematic.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Similarly, if someone born female chooses to be male, that’s fine, but if they are doing so because they live in a world where women are treated worse than men and they want to protect themselves from poor treatment, that’s problematic.

    I see where you’re going with that, but cis privilege is nastier than male privilege, so this is not a good example.

  • Alicia

    I’ll admit, I skimmed the article, saw IHOP, and felt annoyance at yet another perfectly good restaurant that I can’t eat at any more because it decided to get involved in some kind of anti-gay crusade. I mean, this isn’t good either what’s happening but at least I can still get pancakes.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

     

    “Deviant, Abnormal, and Aberrant”.  Back in the day, those were also
    used to describe slaves who tried to escape.  or women who wanted to
    vote or have a job.  Or…

    My go-to response for anyone who backs up their anti-gay bigotry with “homosexuality was long diagnosed as a mental illness” is very simple:

    Drapetomania.

  • 1Catolives1

     A former head of the historical section of the APA also states that homosexuality was not removed as a disease because they were sure it was not a disease but rather at the time in 1970’s there was no effective treatment. He pointed out that it was a dangerous assumption given that there exist other widely accepted diseases which have no effective treatment and we still call them a disease.  They however have no lobby asking that the particular cancer be removed from the list of diseases.

  • Shutes

    Can I just say thank you, all of you. Hilarious.