‘We’re here to stay. We’re here to stay. We’re here to stay’

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“It’s offensive to me as a Christian, as a woman, and as someone with a brain.”

“Years of irrefutable scientific evidence go down the drain, when we right-wing Catholics (or evangelicals, like the ones running Hobby Lobby and Mardel) need to prove that women are primarily baby machines.”

“Father Piero Corsi of Liguria said in a Christmas bulletin that the rise in domestic violence in Italy was caused by women serving cold food, not looking after their children, not cleaning their home, acting arrogant, and dressing provocatively.”

“I’ve noticed that people’s interest in discussing or accounting for privilege may be inversely proportional to the amount they possess. Which can be sort of a problem.”

“Women are empowered in the religious wing of conservative thought –” which seems to be more than religious progressives are doing.”

“Proponents of the [Violence Against Women Act] hope to revive the law in the new Congress, starting from scratch, but in the meantime, there will be far fewer resources available for state and local governments to combat domestic violence.”

“No matter how broad the bipartisan support, no matter who gets hurt in the process, the politics of the right wing of their party always comes first.”

“The primary stated rationale for the House GOP’s opposition to a Senate-passed version of the VAWA (as opposed to less seemly, muted rationales involving a general hostility to feminism in any form) was an objection to the extension of rights to people in LGBT couples — who presumably deserve whatever they get after defying God’€™s Law –€” undocumented folk, and Native Americans.”

“The modesty doctrine revolves around the assumption that a man has a right to sex with every woman he finds attractive.”

I can’t put a lot of faith in your good faith.”

“So here I am, days away from my son’s sixth birthday, thinking about how we need to teach our boys not to rape, instead of cautioning our daughters on how not to get raped.”

“This was a medical service that is advantageous for both women and babies, so we thought it should be seriously considered.”

“Last month a woman whose baby had died en utero was coming to the clinic to have it removed. In an awful coincidence, that was the day, Watters said, when the pro-life demonstrators collected a children’s choir on the sidewalk to sing ‘Happy Birthday Dead Baby’ to anyone driving in.”

“I have found the misunderstanding about late-term abortion to be widespread even among many of those in the public health advocacy community.”

“Developments in women’s health care were disseminated via a national game of political telephone, with information about our menstrual cycles, contraceptive options, and pregnancies filtered through the fuzzy interpretation of conservative talk show hosts, religious officials, and candidates for public office.”

“Medical and other experts say some dispense scientifically flawed information, exaggerating abortion’s risks.”

“My real problem, here, is that harmful books like these are still popular in Christian circles.”

“If you’re screening partners for how good they are at modeling future behavior, date statisticians. If you’re looking for someone who cares more about serving you than about showing off their precision of their model of you, date someone who isn’t ashamed to ask about your preferences.”

 

  • Paul Durant


    See, only because you have a persecution complex do you think “Being a brony” is the reason I am calling you out for sexualizing children. Instead of, you know, defending child pornography and melting down because someone criticized loli fetish stuff.
    This is a thing you imagined. You imagined it because you wanted to imagine something that would make me more fun to attack. (Also, you very obviously brought up the magical-girls thing to shame me and dismiss me, you don’t get to get out of that by saying “well technically I never explicitly linked them, I was calling you a pedophile based on a different thing that I made up!”)

    Having a discussion on civil liberties where I explicitly compare things that are gross but should not be illegal to the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, and everyone involved remains pretty level-headed, is not “melting down because someone criticized loli fetish stuff.” Stop lying, and while you are at it, seriously, go back to WDDP.

  • Madhabmatics

     Wait, you defended it by comparing it to skokie, too? The meltdown I was thinking of the one where you went to bat to defend sexualizing children with this quote:

    ” It is, in fact, crypto-fascist, because you are, in fact, judging
    people for their private thoughts and intimate actions. You just don’t
    want to admit to doing it because it sounds bad when phrased that way.
    The moment you accept one of these horseshit “your kink is bad for
    society” statements as valid, you’re saying “Pat Robertson, I totally
    agree with you that we should be monitoring people’s inner lives and how
    they express their love for each other because I think the ways some
    people do it are bad, I only disagree with you about what specifically
    we should be condemning.””

  • Paul Durant

    Wasn’t that a discussion about adults roleplaying with each other?

  • Lori

    I use MRA speak because I am a gender egalitarian and that incorporates
    the MRM as well as actual sane advocates for women’s rights, whether or
    not they associate themselves with the name of feminism, who recognize
    that gender roles hurt everyone and cannot be unravelled without being
    understood.   

    Being a gender egalitarian in no way requires using MRA-speak.

    Beyond that, you’re full of shit. You know how I know? We actually talk about the ways that gender roles hurt everyone with some regularity and yet you insist that we’re all brainwashed feminist robots. You rarely, if ever, have anything constructive to contribute. With you it’s all spittle-flecked rants about men being equally abused and feminists hiding your male birth control. That isn’t gender egalitarianism, it’s just MRA bullshit.

    In response to me saying this, you will find the examples of crazy
    misogynist MRA’s (and of course they exist) and say this is proof the
    whole movement is rotten. And then I will respond by bringing up the
    insane misandrist feminists who advocate for culling the male population
    or say that all hetero sex is rape or say transwomen are evil
    infiltrators from the patriarchy to destroy womynkind. And you will
    scoff at me and say “they aren’t real feminists, they don’t represent
    the group!” and won’t even realize the irony.

    You either have a very rich and full fantasy life or a counter-factual belief in your own ability to see the future, because you keep telling me what I’m going to do. It’s stupid and annoying and doesn’t make you seem cleaver or  oh- so-put-upon. It makes you seem like an ass.

    To deal with the substance (such as it is) of your latest whine,  the difference that you refuse to acknowledge is that the nasty misogynists are the mainstream of the MRM, while the man-haters actually are the fringe of feminism. I’m not in charge of policing who is and is not a real feminist, so I have nothing to say on that. The fact that you don’t understand the difference speaks poorly of you, not of me.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Apparently he was accused of sexual harrassment.

    He says he treated her as he had dozens of other graduate students over
    the years. He offered tea and wine. He lit candles. He played some
    music. A fire burned in the hearth.

    Honestly? That seems a little bit inappropriate, especially for what should have been done in his office or, if reasonable privacy was called for, over lunch at a restaurant on campus.

    Also, given that I’ve heard anecdotal examples before (rateyourstudents blog, for example) of older white male professors getting a little “handsy”, I’m going to provisionally assume he crossed a boundary, even if it was down to a cultural misunderstanding of when men may touch women.

    That being said, it also strikes me that Dutton may be a bit of a darling of the MRA movement because he was legitimately excused and an admission of a false accusation was proven.

  • Madhabmatics

    Yes, and out of all the (multiple!) fetishes people were talking about (including people with those fetishes), you melted down to defend the one about pretending to have sex with children. Enough that you got banned for melting down in the posts immediately after that.

    And then you got banned from a my little pony forum for defending child pornography

    which makes all your other obsessions with children (and women dressed as children) creepy as hell

  • Water_Bear

    Umm, ok, I missed something. Why is everyone piling on this dude? It’s actually kind of weirding me out…

  • http://dumas1.livejournal.com/ Winter

     They’re piling on because this is not the first time he’s done this.  Almost any time feminism comes up at this blog, there he is with the rants and accusations and it’s pretty much the same stuff every time.

    And, you know, the nature of the internet. For all each poster knows, their next post is the only response to the target and they see the stuff this guy spews as something that needs to be refuted or condemned or debunked or whatever.

    And what in the seven hells is WDDP and why would anyone go there?

  • banancat

     If any person decides that they will not participate in any sex, then yes, they absolutely do have the right to make that unilateral decision.  Nobody has any obligation to have sex with anyone, ever.  If a married person takes a vow of chastity because they believe the world is going to end, then they still have no obligation to have sex with anyone, ever.  It doesn’t matter how silly or serious the reason is.  If someone has decided to stop having sex, then they get to stop having sex.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    You don’t understand, the feminist cannon is clearly the weapon women are using to abuse men.

    Is that anything like the Friendship Cannon?

  • Paul Durant


    To deal with the substance (such as it is) of your latest whine,  the difference that you refuse to acknowledge is that the nasty misogynists are the mainstream of the MRM, while the man-haters actually are the fringe of feminism.

    No, they aren’t the mainstream. They really, really aren’t. The MRM is more fractious than feminism to begin with being as it started mostly on the Internet which promotes people going into their own little enclosed communities where their views and righteousness can be reinforced by each other, which makes it a lot more of an archipelago. But the informal “leader” of the movement online, such as it is, is a bisexual mother of three who is hardly a misogynist. The published authors that constitute what little “canon” there is are Warren Farrell and Christina Hoff Sommers, neither of whom is a misogynist by any honest standard (“opposes feminism == misogynist” is not an honest standard.) There’s a huge presence on Tumblr of MRA’s and gender egalitarians who incorporate the MRM, the most notable of which is here, and the majority of those blogs, last I checked were run by cis women or transpeople, and only a couple are misogynistic (who nobody really likes). The-spearhead is misogynistic as all fuck,  but only really linked for news reports and other factual, not-opinion things. Even /r/MensRights is mostly about judicial bias against men, and news stories about women hurting men that don’t get a lot of outrage with “hmm what do you think would happen if this was a man doing it to a woman” commentary; any entitled talk about women’s sexual availability I saw there was responded to derisively. TGMP was way, way too focused on fitting it’s advocacy into a feminist paradigm despite that paradigm being provably wrong, and AVFM is… stuff where the subject is something that is true, but some article authors address in a misogynist way, and the main guy behind the site has some weird-ass problems of his own.

    The radical gendercidal feminists are not the core of feminism either, but they are a lot more motivated than the “mainstream,” benefit from the “mainstream” covering for them, they’ve caused a LOT more tangible harm than the radicals of the MRM (the MRM has not passed laws that exclude half of the victims of any crime getting treatment, nor has it encouraged laws that persecute the transgendered), and the mainstream of feminism has a lot mroe to do with radfems than the mainstream cares to admit — radfems are the ones who take feminism’s ideology to its natural and abhorrent conclusions, while third-wavers take the ideology but discard the really obviously insane things it comes up with (without noticing “hey, maybe an ideology that arrives at insane conclusions is not a good way to view the world”.)

    And if you disagree, how are you going to propose to define the mainstream, if not by efficacy?

  • Paul Durant

    Yes, and out of all the (multiple!) fetishes people were talking about (including people with those fetishes), you melted down to defend the one about pretending to have sex with children. Enough that you got banned for melting down in the posts immediately after that.
    And then you got banned from a my little pony forum for defending child pornography

    Yeah, neither of those things happened. I was banned for SA months later for telling Zeitguest, in an incredibly non-aggressive way, that his “I will start The Feminism Thread with all my rules and I will be the lord of it and it will be perfect” was a bad idea and wouldn’t lead to a good thread. Zeitguest is a turd and the mods would later agree that his whole scheme was terrible, but wouldn’t reverse the punishment for anyone who did so earlier, because A: they’re the SA mods and they don’t admit being wrong and B: the guy who specifically got the ban for me was killed in Benghazi so it’s not reeeeally something to revisit and go “oh, person who was literally killed by terrorists, looks like your decisions on internet forum moderation were wrong!” The “defending child pornography” thing was a lie, and everyone knew it was a lie, and everyone acknowledged it was a lie, but I got banned because a certain admin didn’t like how often I was telling others to stop acting like such fucking goons all the time.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    I’m not going to bother engaging with the misogynist troll, but for Invisible Neutrino and others who might be interested:

    The claims made by MRAs that there’s an even split between the sexes for DV rates is based on studies done using the Conflict Tactics Scale originated by Murray Straus and Richard Gelles.  But the CTS doesn’t make any mention of context or result.  So it makes no distinction between initiated violence and self-defense, or defense of children.  It doesn’t even make a distinction between play-fighting and actual attempts to injure.  And, as originally written, the CTS didn’t include sexual violence at all.

    Gelles and Straus have actually been quite critical of MRA misuse of their research.  Richard Gelles says:

    “[W]hen we look at injuries resulting from violence involving male and female partners, it is categorically false to imply that there are the same number of “battered” men as there are battered women. Research shows that nearly 90 percent of battering victims are women and only about ten percent are men…[T]here are very few women who stalk male partners or kill them and then their children in a cataclysmic act of familicide. The most brutal, terrorizing and continuing pattern of harmful intimate violence is carried out primarily by men.

    Indeed, men are hit by their wives, they are injured, and some are killed. But, are all men hit by women “battered?” No. Men who beat their wives, who use emotional abuse and blackmail to control their wives, and are then hit or even harmed, cannot be considered battered men. A battered man is one who is physically injured by a wife or partner and has not physically struck or psychologically provoked her.”

    (more here:  http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/faq-but-doesnt-evidence-show-that-women-are-just-as-likely-to-batter-their-partners-as-men/)

    There are some good debunkings of the MRA claim here (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2004/06/26/on-husband-battering-are-men-equal-victims/) and here (http://manboobz.blogspot.ca/p/not-so-great-debate-on-domestic.html).  If you scroll down, you’ll notice that both include a lot of links with sources and further reading.

  • Paul Durant

    Your first link’s argument  is something that is already addressed and debunked comprehensively in this paper I am now relinking. Your other two links do not work. 

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    People seriously need to learn how to hand correct URLs.

    Chris Hadrick was like this. He couldn’t figure out how to hand edit in the browser URL bar one accidentally introduced comma to make a URL work.

    http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/faq-but-doesnt-evidence-show-that-women-are-just-as-likely-to-batter-their-partners-as-men/

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ann-Unemori/100001112760232 Ann Unemori

    Is that anything like Pachabel’s Cannon? That can be abusive too, after about eleven thousand times.

  • Paul Durant

    Yeah, I was coming in to say I found it, it’s just adding parentheses, I didn’t even notice before.

    The arguments made by Alas a blog and the “manboobz” turd are essentially the same as the one you excerpted: the CTS scale is not adequate and the people who made the CTS scale regret it being used to advance the idea of gender symmetry in DV perpetration. Therefore they all get covered by the same debunking: the massive amount of evidence showing DV symmetry does not rely exclusively or even primarily on the CTS scale.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    The paper YOU linked to depends heavily on CTS and the results obtained from it.

  • Paul Durant

    It uses the data made available by the CTS and CTS2 in reporting of domestic violence to break down specific trends but points out, rightly, that it is not only CTS and CTS2-using surveys that report gender symmetry.

  • Lori

      If any person decides that they will not participate in any sex, then yes, they absolutely do have the right to make that unilateral
    decision.  Nobody has any obligation to have sex with anyone, ever.  If a
    married person takes a vow of chastity because they believe the world
    is going to end, then they still have no obligation to have sex with
    anyone, ever.  It doesn’t matter how silly or serious the reason is.  If
    someone has decided to stop having sex, then they get to stop having
    sex.  

    Please go back and reread what I wrote.

    No, your partner doesn’t own your body in any sense. No, it is not OK for your partner to expect sex from you when you do not want to have it. No, it is not OK to decide that since you’re not into having sex any more your partner needs to give it up too

    I’m not sure what was unclear about that. I did not say that a person is not allowed to make a unilateral decision about having sex or not having it. What I said, and will stand by, is that half of a couple does not get to make a unilateral decision for both halves of the couple

    IOW, if you decide for whatever reason that you aren’t going to have sex any more that’s fine, but you can not demand that your partner remain sexless with you. You can ask, but you can’t demand. That’s a major change in the relationship and your partner has the right not to agree. Not agreeing means working out an open relationship or ending the relationship, not demanding sex when you don’t want to have it.

  • http://beholdconfusion.wordpress.com/ beholdconfusion

    I am in the middle of writing a two-part response to one of the Her.meneutic post that Walking Toward Jerusalem notes as a reason to drop said blog from their blogroll.   When I read the Her.meneutics post about why women shouldn’t buy a vibrator, I almost hit the roof.
    http://beholdconfusion.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/oh-you-brassy-hussy/

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Upon reading it, I think any woman who has a vibrator doesn’t need to be told by Her.meneutics that there’s a difference between a vibrator and a human being. O.o

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    That Her.meneutic post is going to make me furious, isn’t it?

    I have lots of sex toys. (I got most of them free in return for reviewing them.) They have helped my sex life, not hindered it. They’re just toys — and sometimes necessary medical devices. Anyone who thinks otherwise has serious problems with reality. And I’ve noticed that the anti-sex toy jackasses are the ones who think a bit of silicone could substitute for a human being. They are ignorant and severely creepy.

  • JayemGriffin

    Warren Farrell? Like incest advocate Warren Farrell, who claims there’s nothing wrong with fathers being attracted to their underaged daughters and acting on that attraction? You understand that presenting him as a reasonable MRA is not making you look good, yes?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ann-Unemori/100001112760232 Ann Unemori

    I just like the name “Brassy Hussy”, great name for a grrrl band, or an Irish pub.

  • Lori

    Presenting Christina Hoff Sommers as reasonable doesn’t make him look good either.

  • Paul Durant


    Warren Farrell? Like incest advocate Warren Farrell, who claims there’s nothing wrong with fathers being attracted to their underaged daughters and acting on that attraction? You understand that presenting him as a reasonable MRA is not making you look good, yes? 

    The whole “Warren Farrell supports incest” smear is based on an interview in Penthouse in 1977 (back when it was trying to be Playboy interviewing interesting people and having excerpts from acclaimed novelists), taken grotesquely out of context by feminists who cannot engage an argument substantively so they must fabricate a reason why their opponent is a bad person who must be shamed. 

    Yeah, that behavior is completely out of left field, I’ve never seen feminists do that before.

    The most often abused quote is the one about “incest [being] part of the loving family lifestyle”. Which sounds bad unless you can see the rest of the sentence, in which case you would see he is repeating the description given to him by 6 of 200 interviewees and the people pretending he is offering his own opinion on incest are fucking shameless liars. His “crime” of “supporting incest” is interviewing people about it and saying that those speaking about it should use neutral language for the benefit of those who have been subjected to it

    Also, have you noticed how if a feminist says something clearly stark raving fucking insane or heinously selfish, it doesn’t count, it doesn’t impact the validity of their views in other areas, and if it was more than 5 years ago it was all in the past and you shouldn’t be bringing it up any more? But if someone who goes against the feminist orthodoxy ever said anything that someone could lie about and turn into something terrible, even thirty years ago, that means they are irreparably tainted and forevermore marked as a bad person who must be shamed? You probably have, and you probably think it’s perfectly reasonable.

  • Paul Durant


    Presenting Christina Hoff Sommers as reasonable doesn’t make him look good either.
     

    Oh, so you changed your argument after the fact from “the mainstream MRM is misogynist” to “the mainstream MRM isn’t composed entirely of people I agree with all the time.” Good to know.

  • Lori

    Oh, so you changed your argument after the fact from “the mainstream MRM
    is misogynist” to “the mainstream MRM isn’t composed entirely of people
    I agree with all the time.” Good to know.  

    Paul,
    go somewhere and learn some basic logic skills. At this point your
    style of “argument” is just a waste of everyone’s time, including yours.

    In all the great, wide internet there must be somewhere else for you to go. You seem to derive some satisfaction from feeding your persecution fantasies by having this same stupid “fight” over and over and Fred isn’t likely to add to your list of bannings. That’s really not a good reason for you to hang out in a place populated by people you hold in such contempt.

  • spinetingler

     “That’s really not a good reason for you to hang out in a place populated by people you hold in such contempt.”

    and the converse.

  • JayemGriffin

    Because nobody who calls themselves a feminist has called Margaret Sanger out on her eugenicist beliefs or Andrea Dworkin on her issues with sex, to name two off the top of my head. 

    If you want to claim him as a leader, either acknowledge that he said some seriously problematic shit, or adopt that position as well.

  • Paul Durant


    If you want to claim him as a leader, either acknowledge that he said some seriously problematic shit, or adopt that position as well.
     

    I’m not going to “acknowledge” things that didn’t happen. I like how you ignored the whole “he didn’t actually say that” bit in favor of making this about some kind of team identity thing.

  • http://kivikettu.blogspot.fi/ Rakka

    I know there are other Finns in here… anyone else reminded of Basic Finns’ party line of “we say we kick out all racist members, but our members who say racist things are all quoted out of context or joking so they’re not racist”. It’s like these people are sort of aware that shitting on someone’s kitchen table and wiping their ass on the curtains is considered rude, so they’re claiming their damnenest to have been fed laxative during their grand speech delivered sitting on someone’s table, so it’s the laxative-feeders fault, obviously.

  • JayemGriffin

    If you can’t see the problems with saying that “boys don’t seem to suffer, even from the negative [incest]” and attributing the HUGE gap in how fathers viewed incest (60% positive) vs. how daughters viewed incest (85% negative) to either social norms or selective reporting without even CONSIDERING the possibility of abuse, I honestly have nothing more to say to you. 

    Troll-feeding ceases now. Sorry everybody.

  • vsm

    I just a read an interview with some higher up True Finn who was getting really sick of their members’ racist bullshit. He obviously also blamed the media a bit, but didn’t try to explain away any of their comments. It was refreshing.

  • fraser

     And who also claims 80 percent of rape charges are made-up. And that being cockteased is the equivalent of rape.

  • fraser

    The guy quoted in the one story who explains most miscarriages are the woman’s fault due to”environmental conditions, prior drug use, length since off the pill,
    alcohol, rest, physical activities such as running, diet, dieting, etc. ” creeps me out. There have been multiple cases of women confined against their will because they weren’t “taking care” of themselves during pregnancy, and a woman in Utah charged with murder because one of her twins was still-born after a Caesarian. I suspect this is going to grow because it fits in so well with the grand dream of forcing women back into the home (“Don’t you know computer radiation can affect your baby? You can’t work here now!”).

  • http://kivikettu.blogspot.fi/ Rakka

    Are they even noticing they’re saying women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t, especially the “rest or physical activities” bit. What? Just… what?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Riastlin-Lovecraft/100000678992705 Riastlin Lovecraft

    Necessary medical devices? My curiosity has been peaked. How did sex toys aid in your treatment?

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    First: sexual pleasure is a necessary thing, physically and psychologically, except for asexuals. (That does not mean anyone has a right to sex with another person, but everyone does have a right to do what they can for themselves, alone.)

    When someone’s back goes kerflooey to the extent that mine has, with discs impacting the spinal cord, they usually get something called “saddle numbness”. For males, Viagra is often prescribed. For females, it’s vibrators. And they really have helped me a ton — I’m lucky that I had some excellent ones already when my back went kerflooey.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    Can we ignore the MRA child rape-apologist? I hate to think that every thread on women’s rights is going to become this now. It will mean I’ll have to avoid threads on women’s rights. 

  • AnonymousSam

    Does this mean you’re finally getting treatment for your back? I remember you saying something awhile back about the PPACA getting you a surgery you otherwise couldn’t afford…

  • Paul Durant


    Can we ignore the MRA child rape-apologist?

    Fuck you. The fact that you dislike someone does not make all negative things true about them. Also, fuck you.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    First appointment in a few days. The other stuff was self-treatment from finding it online.

  • http://twitter.com/mcclure111 mcc

    This is a spectacularly unconvincing way of presenting your argument from the perspective of someone who has just walked in

  • fraser

     Not a bug but a feature, I’m sure. If everything a woman does puts their child at risk–including making perfectly legitimate decisions that having a C-section is not optimum–and if they’re held responsible for the outcome, then it’s perfectly reasonable to have other people take away their decision-making power for The Good of the Child.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    Only reasonable if the Good of the Fetus matters more than the good of the human being whose body that fetus is dependent upon. 

    Basically, they’ve criminalized being a fertile female. They are only able to do that because our culture already treats pregnant women as incubators.

  • http://somuchshoutingsomuchlaughter.com/ suzannah | the smitten word

    this soundtrack is perfection. thanks so much, fred.

  • fraser

     Pretty much yep. My reasonable was meant to be sarcastic.


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