What do the purple people want in PRRI’s abortion poll?

This is the Public Religion Research Institute’s Graphic of the Week:

“In an exceedingly complex debate over abortion,” PRRI asks, “what do the labels ‘pro-life’ and ‘pro-choice’ actually mean to average Americans?”

That’s not addressed in this graphic, but their data on “overlapping identities” points toward one possibility.

There’s a lot of purple in that graphic — the portion of each graph representing those who identify as both “pro-choice” and “pro-life.” White evangelicals and Catholics, unsurprisingly have the largest share of adherents who identify exclusively as pro-life. My guess is that this share — those who refuse any association with the identifier pro-choice — reflects those who want to see abortion criminalized, those who view abortion as immoral and also (or therefore) want to see it made illegal.

But more than half of Catholics and more than a third of white evangelicals identify as both pro-life and pro-choice. My guess — and this is only a guess — is that this suggests a moral opposition to abortion along with a perhaps-reluctant acknowledgement that it nonetheless ought to remain a legal option. My guess is that these purple people would be approximately in favor of the old Clinton formula: safe, legal and rare — perhaps with an emphasis on the “rare.” Some might prefer to pursue making abortion more rare by introducing an increasing number of legal hurdles, obstacles and hindrances, but others may prefer to pursue making abortion more rare by empowering women to have a wider menu of viable, meaningful choices (living wages, health care, day care, etc.).

Again, I’m just guessing — the graphic doesn’t actually tell us anything about what the purple people want or what it means, to them, to choose both of those identifiers of pro-life and pro-choice. It may only indicate that many Americans find these identifiers both to be inadequate on their own — as Taja Lindley recently wrote, the polarizing politics of abortion present a stark binary view that doesn’t capture many people’s actual experience:

In today’s binary political system, however, abortion has become oversimplified. Although fraught with social, economic, cultural, and political meaning, abortion has been reduced to a singular and isolated issue in the political arena. And yet, just below the surface of political silencing, those of us whose experiences with abortion do not fit neatly into didactic sound-bites and talking points for pundits and policymakers in their public debates about our bodies, the waters of human experience still run deep.

But if my guess above is correct — if the “pro-life only” category represents those who want to see abortion outlawed, while the purple people lean toward safe, legal and rare — then this graphic shows us something interesting: Earlier surveys have found that about a third of white evangelicals want abortion to be legally available in their communities. Yet this survey finds 48 percent of white evangelicals identifying themselves as pro-choice. This may indicate that allowing respondents to qualify their answers — to say they are pro-choice but also pro-life — resulted in a greater number of white evangelicals being willing to state that they do not wish to see abortion criminalized. And if my guess is correct about what this graphic is showing us, then it would suggest that a greater number of white evangelicals wish to see abortion remain a legal option than wish to see it banned completely.

  • Isabel C.

    Because, especially in the first trimester, it’s not a child to a lot of women, and it doesn’t have a right to life. Saying that the system is “fair” because it provides an advocate for something that you haven’t proven *deserves* an advocate is starting from false assumptions. “You can consider it an advocate for the unborn child who also has a right to life” is like saying “You can consider it an advocate for the polka-dotted space aliens who need to know your harmonic vibration,” where I’m concerned. Or, to go back to my earlier metaphor, saying I need to sit down for half an hour with a vegetarian before I order a steak.

    The thing about advice is: if I want it, I will ask for it. I’ll ask my friends. I’ll ask people I consider qualified. If I don’t ask, and someone offers advice anyhow? That person is generally an asshat. (There are a few exceptions where close friends, or my mom, can start out with “Hey, can I offer a suggestion about your finances?” or “Hey, I need to tell you that you should maybe reconsider that eyeshadow?” but those exceptions are a) few and far between, and b) involve close friends, or my mom.) If I say that I’m not interested in advice and the person continues? That person can get out of my life, preferably by going off to fuck themselves.

    If I go in for an abortion, I know the options. I know the ramifications. You’re welcome to say that counseling is available, to ask if I’d like it, and to prominently display pamphlets and fliers in your office. Anything beyond that is intrusive, condescending, and unwelcome; frankly, if it was mandatory here and the situation came up, I’d spend the entire counseling session either singing at the top of my lungs (if you treat me like a child, I might as well act like one) or reading a book. 

  • Münchner Kindl

    *points upwards* Did you read for example Isabel C. comments? A fetus is just a blob of tissue, and she doesn’t need or want any input in her decision. I don’t know how long she considers a fetus just tissue and when she maybe considers it a baby, but people of this type always show up and the shrillness of their voice convinces the other side that their strawmen are true.

  • http://flickr.com/photos/sedary_raymaker/ Naked Bunny with a Whip

    a good compromise between the rights of the unborn and the rights of the pregnant woman.

    Never mind. I see where your bias is.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     Yeah, exactly.

    My own position is that ordinary laws should automatically come up for renewal every N years, straight up-or-down vote, no amendments. If we want the law on the books, we vote for it. This state of “we don’t really support it but going on record as repealing it would be impractical so instead we constrain enforcement” is just goofy.

    Not that I expect that to change.

  • Isabel C.

    Okay, English presumably isn’t your first language, so I’ll be nice.

    The SoCal thing was a joke about my origins. I said, capslocked for your easy reading comprehension, that I am ALL IN FAVOR OF MAKING COUNSELING AS AVAILABLE AS POSSIBLE. Whenever. Wherever. For any life event, or just in general.

     You don’t see how a woman could be pressured by her surrounding to say “yes, I thought about it”, if neutral counseling was not mandatory?

    So, because someone might not have taken advantage of what’s available, that thing should be mandatory?

    Would you advocate the same requirements for any operation? Gastric bypass surgery? Laser vision correction? How about pregnancy itself? Certainly that’s a situation where women could feel pressure from their surroundings.

     And this of course feeds right into the extremist strawman the pro-lifers paint of the other side: calling it a blob of tissue and being callous and unthinking about it. 
    Ah, the tone argument. Always fun.

    Scientific fact has shown me no reason why a first-trimester embryo has the same rights as a human being. You use “unborn child,” I use “blob of tissue”. You see callous and unthinking, I see sentimental and manipulative. Equal and opposite reaction, buddy. 

  • Münchner Kindl

     So you are so adamant that you don’t be treated as child that you are ready to act like a child and by denying a compromise deny all women the oppurtinity?

    And the doctor who does the procedure is exempt from counseling, to avoid any conflicts.

    The thing about advice is: if I want it, I will ask for it. I’ll ask my
    friends. I’ll ask people I consider qualified. If I don’t ask, and
    someone offers advice anyhow? That person is generally an asshat.

    So people trained for counseling, up to date on all laws and help, are less qualified than your friends? Yes, that’s what an adult person … doesn’t say. And anybody who gives you unasked advice is an asshat? You know, maybe people treat you like a child because you very strongly come across like one. You give the picture of someone stamping their feet saying “But I’m grown-up, I don’t have to listen, I know everything!” – which is the opposite of adult.

    And refusing compromises to push extreme versions, even if they have less chance of suceeding? Yes, very rational.

  • JustoneK

    And begin the same old arguments.

    Protip:  Calling someone childish for not giving up on an issue that does, in fact, directly affect on how she lives and/or dies is a dick move.

  • Isabel C.

    I’m only denying anyone any opportunity if you think “opportunity” involves force. As I said–in capslock, even–I’m all for providing counseling. Just not for making it mandatory. 

    And you haven’t answered either my questions or my points, which suggests things both about your guts and your argument style.
     So people trained for counseling, up to date on all laws and help, are less qualified than your friends? 

    No. If I want advice from a counselor, I’ll ask one of them. See the “people I consider qualified” right after the bit about my friends? That would imply doctors, lawyers, counselors, and so forth. 

     And anybody who gives you unasked advice is an asshat? 

    Most people, yeah.I don’t think a lot of the guy on the subway who wants me to smile, baby, because it can’t be that bad. I don’t think a lot of his pro-life equivalent, either. Neither one knows anything about me; neither one is qualified to comment on my situation; and if I make a decision, that’s my business. Not theirs. 

    So the mark of being grown-up is being willing to listen to every jackass with an opinion? Good to know.

     And refusing compromises to push extreme versions, even if they have less chance of suceeding? 

    What “less chance of succeeding”?

    If I got knocked up today, I’d call Planned Parenthood, make an appointment, and get an abortion. No bullshit counseling by someone who thinks I have to be conflicted about this because it’s what fits their worldview; no static; they’d probably ask if I’m sure, I’d say yes, and then it’d be done.

    The right-wing might flap its hands,  and God knows we have a long way to go and a bunch of “unborn child”-spouting dickheads to defeat, but it sounds to me like my position’s succeeded pretty well here. 

  • Münchner Kindl

    So, because someone might not have taken advantage of what’s available, that thing should be mandatory?

    Yes. One of the reasons is that by making it mandatory for everybody, the onus is not on the woman to get access to counseling – which currently is not available everywhere, no matter what you advocate – but on the state to provide it. For another, it makes sure that some women are not pressured or uninformed.

    Scientific fact has shown me no reason why a first-trimester embryo has the same rights as a human being.

    It doesn’t have the same rights, otherwise an abortion would not be allowed at all. But it is more than just a blob of tissue, because it can develop into a child. That’s also a scientific fact. Science also says that while in the first few weeks, it’s just a blob, closer to the end of 12 weeks, it’s a lot more developed. After the 11th week, it becomes a fetus because the embryonic development is over. So “blob of tissue” is incorrect.

    By denying that it is something that can become life and therefore valuable you are ignoring facts. You are also denying many women who think different an opinion.

    And I’m not your buddy.

  • Münchner Kindl

     The law calls it unborn child because that’s what it is. They don’t use the medical terms because embryo and fetus apply to different stages in pregnancy, but the law applies to all stages/ the first 12 weeks.

    I fail to see where the bias is in saying that it can develop into a child and should therefore be treated respectfully and not discarded thoughtlessly.

  • http://flickr.com/photos/sedary_raymaker/ Naked Bunny with a Whip

    You’re taking a consistent ethic of a woman’s right to control her body  that makes no practical difference in the abortion debate (because people don’t get late-term abortions for non-medical reasons) and pretending that it’s equivalent to zealots who are imposing invasive, state-mandated ultrasound probes.

    Your pro-choice “extremist” sounded like a typical pro-lifer strawman because that’s exactly what it was. If you can’t be honest about the ethics and practical application, there’s no point in engaging you.

  • Münchner Kindl

     I’m not calling her childish, I said her behaviour and arguments come across as one. To claim that you’re so smart you don’t need any counseling and to deny even listening – is that not childish? To insist that mandating counseling is paternalistic?

    And I fail to see how it affects how she lives or dies – I’m not talking about forbidding abortion, only about mandatory counseling. But that’s too terrible for her to bear, to listen to what somebody has to say.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     > The law calls it unborn child because that’s what it is.

    There are a lot of things that it is.

    Picking one is not a neutral act; it’s a way of prioritizing its role as that thing.

    I am an undead corpse in the same sense that a fetus is an unborn child, but if someone wrote a law that started referring me to that way that would not be an unbiased description.

  • Persia

     So people trained for counseling, up to date on all laws and help, are
    less qualified than your friends? Yes, that’s what an adult person …
    doesn’t say.

    Less qualified to help their friend with her life circumstances? Seriously? This isn’t buying a new car. The laws don’t really come into place with this. Knowing where to go for childcare, etc, is probably helpful, but again, making that mandatory is pretty absurd.

  • Isabel C.

    Thank God for that.

    As far as the embryo/fetus/blah is concerned, other women have the right to think whatever they want.  To women who are going through a *wanted* pregnancy, a first-trimester embryo is much more than a blob of tissue, and I respect that completely. To me, it wouldn’t be–so insisting that it is is denying me an opinion, by your logic.And now we’re just going to pretend we’ve had the same old argument where I point out that the contents of your crusty Kleenex and my used tampons “can become life and therefore valuable” by this logic,  you say that’s different because Reasons, blah blah blah, not really interested in going around that circle again. However: if the embryo becomes more human by the end of twelve weeks, isn’t that an argument for making sure abortions can take place as early as possible? Like, without bullshit counseling requirements?

    And if you want the onus to be on the state, wouldn’t it be just as easy to say that the state is mandated to offer counseling, rather than saying that the woman is required to go through it? And as far as pressure or being uninformed goes, I repeat: do you advocate the same requirements for pregnancy?

  • Münchner Kindl

     

    As I said–in capslock, even–I’m all for providing counseling. Just not for making it mandatory.

    So who is going to provide it? That’s what my answer was about. Wanting to provide it is all nice, but somebody has to pay for it.

    And you haven’t answered either my questions or my points, which suggests things both about your guts and your argument style.

    I thought I did answer your question, except for surgery, which I answered up to another: normal operations don’t involve other lifes. And pregnancy is not an operation, so I don’t understand how you get counseling before pregnancy – what you mean with that.

    Most people, yeah.I don’t think a lot of the guy on the subway who
    wants me to smile, baby, because it can’t be that bad. I don’t think a
    lot of his pro-life equivalent, either. Neither one knows anything about
    me; neither one is qualified to comment on my situation; and if I make a
    decision, that’s my business. Not theirs. 

    So the mark of being grown-up is being willing to listen to every jackass with an opinion? Good to know.

    I consider that comparision between a trained counselor in a mandatory setting and a guy on the subway to be so ridicolous and off-track that I don’t want to answer it. And I didn’t say “to listen to every jackass”. I’m talking all the time about mandatory counseling for pregnancy termination from trained people. Side-tracks are not relevant to this point.

    What “less chance of succeeding”?

    If I got knocked up today, I’d call Planned Parenthood, make an
    appointment, and get an abortion. No bullshit counseling by someone who
    thinks I have to be conflicted about this because it’s what fits their
    worldview; no static; they’d probably ask if I’m sure, I’d say yes, and
    then it’d be done.

    So you live in a state which currently allows full abortions up to 9 months? 

    I was talking about how it’s done here, and one of the things necessary for a compromise for those who consider an embryo a potential child and therefore, with lesser rights but not without, was a pause to think and information, therefore mandatory counseling. You felt necessary to attack the very idea because it’s oh so terrible, instead of asking how women here feel about it.

  • Münchner Kindl

     

    And as far as pressure or being uninformed goes, I repeat: do you advocate the same requirements for pregnancy?

    Please explain what you mean with that. I don’t see how mandated counseling before pregnancy would work?
    Do you mean that counseling is made available before pregnancy? Then yes, I’m for it, because we have it – every girl or woman can go to her gynecologist and get advice on how to avoid pregnancy or on how to become pregnant. Underage girls do not need parents consent or company and because of doctors confidentality, the gyn. can’t tell the parents that the daughter wanted the pill.

  • Beroli

     I’m not calling her childish, I said her behaviour and arguments come
    across as one. To claim that you’re so smart you don’t need any
    counseling and to deny even listening – is that not childish? To insist
    that mandating counseling is paternalistic?

    You know, for someone who is arguing that everyone should “listen” on every subject (or, as Izzy put it, that the mark of a grownup is being willing to listen to every jackass with an opinion), you sure seem to be posting with your fingers jammed into your ears.

    …On this subject and every other subject I remember you posting on, for that matter. There are people who could say “it’s inherently childish not to be willing to listen” and I’d believe they were sincere (idiotic, but sincere). You? Aren’t one of them. It’s abundantly obvious that you only consider it mandatory for people who don’t already See The Truth to listen…to you.

  • AnonymousSam

    Yeah, Isabel, listen to the man and ask a woman how she feels about this. ¬_____¬

  • Isabel C.

    The state, I’d assume? It’d present the same problem in the US that getting state-funded *anything* does–fucking Republicans, namely–but so would mandatory neutral counseling. 

     I thought I did answer your question, except for surgery, which I answered up to another: normal operations don’t involve other lifes.
    Neither does abortion, in my view and in a lot of other people’s. Furthermore, if you’re going to get into the whole “involving other life” thing…do I have an obligation to get counseling before getting a tapeworm removed? Taking antibiotics to cure my strep throat? 

    Counseling before pregnancy: well, presumably if you’re going to require counseling before an abortion, you should require counseling before someone goes ahead with a pregnancy. That involves “other life” too, right?

     I consider that comparision between a trained counselor in a mandatory setting and a guy on the subway to be so ridicolous and off-track that I don’t want to answer it.

    Why? Neither of them knows anything about me. I didn’t ask for either of their help.

    Honestly? If your position is “people should have to get counseling before making any major life or medical decision,” then I’m not on board but I can understand it. But singling out abortion for that requirement is absurd.

     So you live in a state which currently allows full abortions up to 9 months?

    I live in a state where I can get first-trimester abortions on demand without mandatory counseling. You don’t. I, and many other people, addressed the whole late-term abortion issue elsewhere. Read those posts. I was talking about how it’s done here, and one of the things necessary for a compromise for those who consider an embryo a potential child and therefore, with lesser rights but not without, was a pause to think and information, therefore mandatory counseling.

    And I don’t see why that compromise is necessary or desirable for the rest of us, is what I’m saying.I don’t really care how women there feel about it–or, rather, I expect that not all women feel the same way about it–and why should I? You presented it as the way things are. I responded by saying that it’s a shitty way for things to be. Why wouldn’t I? 

  • Münchner Kindl

     First, I didn’t compare it invasive ultrasound zealots. ? I only compared one side wanting abortions unto birth to the other side wanting no abortions whatsoever.

    And I was not talking about the practical difference, because I was talking about extremes. Most people fall in the middle because of this: they say it’s a blob at 4 weeks, so it’s not such a big deal, but at 30 weeks it’s a preemie, so allowing abortion without time limits is not okay.

    And it’s not a good argument about what “people get” or don’t get. Yes, most abortions are not last trimester. But there are people who for some reason or other delay their decision. So if you give numbers, that argument would be stronger than just asserting that people don’t get them.

    And as we see in this discussion, some people do argue for the right to their body without any thought to the embryo, so I don’t know where they draw the line. They don’t say “It’s a blob until week 10, but after that, I would think about it” Or “It’s a blob until 3rd trimester”. No, it’s “blob of tissues”. (And comparisions to tampons, which is really weird to me).

  • banancat

    But maybe a random dude outside the clinic isn’t the best person to hear it from.

  • Beroli

     

    I’m for it, because we have it

    That may just be a slightly awkward phrasing, but I find myself wondering if you actually mean what it seems to be indicating, read perfectly literally. Is your concept of the ideal government identical to your concept of your own government?

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     > I don’t see how mandated counseling before pregnancy would work?

    Well, how does mandated counseling before an abortion work? Presumably, if I can be proven in court to have had an abortion or to have provided one, and there’s no evidence that the mandated counseling happened, then I get criminally penalized in some way (e.g. imprisoned or fined or caned or whatever).

    Laws frequently work that way.

    So one way mandated counseling before pregnancy could work is similar: if I can be proven in court to have become pregnant, or gotten someone else pregnant, and there’s no evidence that the mandated counseling happened, then I get criminally penalized.

  • Isabel C.

    Oh, for fuck’s sake.

    Nobody. Wants. Nine. Month. Abortions.  We have said that. Other people have said that.
    If you’re talking about me, read for comprehension. I said “first trimester” about fifty-seven times, fool. I also talked about how mandatory counseling LEADS TO MORE LATE-TERM ABORTIONS, actually, and how most of the rest are due to health concerns. As did many other people.

    And also? If you’re going to demand numbers, start fucking providing. Begin with these “women who feel pressured into not asking for counseling,” maybe, or the “most people” who fall in the middle, you hypocrite. 

  • Münchner Kindl

     

    Counseling before pregnancy: well, presumably if you’re going to require
    counseling before an abortion, you should require counseling before
    someone goes ahead with a pregnancy. That involves “other life” too,
    right?

    I’m sorry, I still don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean: counseling before starting a pregnancy? How would that work practically? (Because that comes often about on itself; though people are free to go to a doctor for medical help if they have concerns).
    Do you mean: counseling to continue a pregnancy? (That is part of the abortion counseling. And a pregnancy continues on its own. We also have mandated checkups by doctors for pregnant women to reduce miscarriages and spot problems for those who want to continue the pregnancy).

  • Münchner Kindl

    ??? If you’re referring to me, I’m a woman.

  • Isabel C.

    Sure. If you go into the doctor’s office pregnant, he or she asks if you want an abortion. If you do, you get counseling. If you don’t, you get the same counseling.

    Why not? It makes sense, under your logic. 

  • Münchner Kindl

     1. I didn’t say everyone should listen on every subject, and certainly not any jackass.

    2. I can listen and still disagree with the opinions I read.
    Therefore, I don’t expect everybody to immediatly change their opinion to mine. But at least acknowledge that my opionions also have some value instead of declaring them wrong.

    3. I don’t expect it mandatory for others to listen to me. I do expect not to dismiss my opinions because things are different and thus automatically better in your country. I would like to challenge the unspoken assumption that the way you do it is aumatically better, but instead I get shouted down or ignored.

  • Beroli

    Please explain what you mean with that. I don’t see how mandated counseling before pregnancy would work? 

    Mandatory contraceptive implants. To get them removed, you need to show your current license to have a child, stamped by the person who counseled you.
    (No, lest someone walk in in the middle and misread this, I am not advocating this. I am providing an example of how it would be possible to make counseling absolutely mandatory before pregnancy.)

  • Münchner Kindl

     Huh? No, you misunderstood me. I meant “Yes, I’m for it – and also, incidentally, we already have it (so I can see it’s a good idea)”.

    Also, I didn’t talk about the govt., but about this specific case – medical advice available through a doctor because of Health Insurance.

    There are lots of practical and theoretical things wrong with my government – it’s a long list. But a lot of the principle things I find much better when I compare them.

  • Beroli

    I didn’t say everyone should listen on every subject

     

    To claim that you’re so smart you don’t need any
    counseling and to deny even listening

    Yeah. You did. You claimed that “denying listening” is automatically childish.

    But at least acknowledge that my opionions also have some value instead of declaring them wrong.

    …Why would your opinions automatically have value? Because they’re your opinions? Sorry, there are a lot of opinions that aren’t worth the breath it takes to utter them.

    I don’t expect it mandatory for others to listen to me. I do expect not
    to dismiss my opinions because things are different and thus
    automatically better in your country. I would like to challenge the
    unspoken assumption that the way you do it is aumatically better, but
    instead I get shouted down or ignored.

    That may be the most hypocritical thing I’ve ever read. Every post I can remember you ever making here has been on the theme, “Why my country is better than your country.”

  • Baby_Raptor

    Potential means nothing. The fact that an embryo has the potential to become a person should not in any way factor into the abortion debate at all. 

    You have the potential to become a serial killer. Should your home country lock you up simply because you might possibly murder someone one day? No. There’s no difference.

    And that potential to become life doesn’t automatically ascribe value either. 

    Also, speaking as someone who has actually carried a pregnancy to term, a 12 week old fetus is MUCH closer to a blob of tissue than it is a person. Development is only part of the equation. The level of development has to be factored in, and then there’s the fact that, without the woman’s body, it wouldn’t be developing at all. 

    And that’s what the entire debate SHOULD hinge on: Value or not, life or not, the entire process depends on the fetus (and other stages) having a captive woman to take nutrients from and to handle everything for it. If the woman wants to submit her body to this process, then more power to her. But the woman who doesn’t should have every right not to. In no other situation do we require a person to give up their body to another person for Person B’s use. Why are unborn fetuses any different? 

  • Isabel C.

    Oh, Lord. I don’t think anyone on this board* assumes, spoken or unspoken, that the way the US does things is automatically better than anywhere else, up to and including the gladatorial pits of Xaxxon 5. **

    I myself feel that our economic and social policies are, as a general rule, deeply inferior to those of, oh, Canada, the UK, Australia, Sweden, France, the Netherlands, and probably a bunch of other countries I haven’t heard of yet; that, frankly, our economic policies are inferior to those German policies that I’ve heard of; and that the specific policy you’re advocating is bullshit. For the record. 

    *And now a troll with a crying eagle in its icon is going to pop up and prove me wrong.
    **Okay, we’re probably better than that.

  • Münchner Kindl

     No, I mean at what time would you get the counseling? Not everybody plans pregnancies, they’re hard to plan. You can plan that you want a baby and start trying – or decide you don’t want one and take the pill/ pressary/ condoms depending on medical what’s best for you.

    But trying to get a baby and actually getting pregnant is often a long time. And there are things like rape that happen unplanned. Or you take the pill and it fails. Things are too unplanable with pregnancies for it to be practical.

    Whereas an abortion is planable.

    If you mean general sex ed., that’s provided in school, under biology as part of health, and can be asked for at the gynecologist.

  • Münchner Kindl

     No, doctors would not agree with this. Mandatory implants are messing with the body and are not recommended for health unless wanted.

    And they can fail.

  • Fusina

     Point taken. I was thinking of the loonies in Congress who want to restrict contraceptive use and added that in. That said, I spent many hours sitting with a friend who was waiting on the results of her amnio test, as if the child tested positive for Downs she planned to abort. She had many good reasons, one of which being that she was 41. Her husband is disabled, and she feared ending up the primary caregiver for both husband and child, and she was very concerned as she did not think she was up to it. So I know from that how the decision is not one taken lightly. I would like to see abortion stop due to not having unwanted or damaged fetuses, but I do not see that happening.

    I also read the news. The woman in Ireland who died due to being unable to get an abortion to remove the dead fetus in her uterus–that would be why I support the right to get one–I would rather have abortion on demand than women dying from that sort of thing. I also remember reading about a woman who was raped and forced to have the baby–I believe this was in the Sudan? and her only question was, “How can I come to love this child?” My heart broke for her and the child–for her because every day she sees the result of this vile act, and for the child, who had nothing to do with it and yet is also paying. Better for this to have ended in abortion, than that a child should be born to such misery.

    I am a woman, I am raising a daughter. We have discussed contraception. We have discussed condom usage. We have discussed abortions. We have discussed teenage pregnancy. She has friends in high school with children. She has seen how difficult it is. She does not know, now, if she would be able to emotionally handle either having a child or aborting a pregnancy. I have told her that she is in charge of her body, that if she wants to do something, she is allowed–although I banned tattoos until she was 18, and then only if she pays for them herself. I am a mishmosh of contradicting opinions–which makes me normal.

    I am tired. I am tired of injustice. I am tired of people with too much money pleading poor when it comes time to pay the piper. I am tired of people with power removing what little power remains to those without much because “they don’t understand how to use it.” I am not “the little woman” “the helpmeet”, I am a person. I have a mind. I know how to use it. My sexual identity is not what I think with. And I am finding it harder and harder to go out of my house, out of fear of my fellow humans and how stupid so many of them seem to be–and how many of those who are stupid are in positions of power and authority.

  • Isabel C.

    …much like pregnancy. How about that?

  • Münchner Kindl

     

    I also talked about how mandatory counseling LEADS TO MORE LATE-TERM
    ABORTIONS, actually, and how most of the rest are due to health
    concerns. As did many other people.

    I have not heard that. I do not want to wade through other abortion debates previous because Disqus sucks at reading old stuff.

    What is the reason that mandatory counseling leads to more late-term abortions? I assume you refer to those states in the US that have them? Is it because counseling places are difficult to access? Is there a long waiting period?

    If you’re talking about me, read for comprehension. I said “first trimester” about fifty-seven times, fool.

    I missed it fifty-seven times, then. You called it a blob of tissue, which either means the first few weeks or … I don’t know.

    I didn’t say I had numbers. I didn’t say that many women feel pressured. I suggested a possibility. That most people fall in the middle is up in the graphic: people who are pro-life in that they don’t want abortions in later weeks or presumably nilly-willy, but are pro-choice, presumably meaning safe access.

  • Fusina

    I am in the purple. I don’t like abortions being necessary, but I also don’t like women being restricted from getting them. for any reason they see fit at any point in the pregnancy. 

    This point is mine, this opinion is mine, and here I stand.

  • Münchner Kindl

     No. My logic is that the counseling is a compromise, between the theoretical right of the child – which the law takes from conception – and the right of the pregnant woman to decided what to do with her body.

    To continue a pregnancy, no counseling is necessary. (Though a woman can get it if she wants it.) The pregnancy continues by itself. What would the counseling be about?

    The counseling before an abortion covers all options: terminating or continuing. If the woman already knows she wants to continue, she already has decided that the other option doesn’t apply.

    If during the pregnancy medical problems come up, then the decision is different, and the gynecologist will tell her the risks.

    It’s assumed that most woman who are pregnant and go to a doctor will want to continue. (One of the differences is removal of other factors leading to unwanted pregnancies, like easy access to prevention).

  • Isabel C.

    No, that was this thread. Something like five posts up from ours. Don’t be disingenuous. 

    Mandatory counseling results in more late-term abortions here largely because some women can only get off of work/away from their husbands or fathers/into the facilities that offer abortions at limited times. If they have to get counseling before the procedure, they’re much less likely to be able to get it before the first trimester ends. I missed it fifty-seven times, then. You called it a blob of tissue, which either means the first few weeks or … I don’t know.

    Then ask. 

     I didn’t say I had numbers. Then don’t ask other people to provide them.

     I didn’t say that many women feel pressured. I suggested a possibility.

    So…you’re willing to make actual women wait for their medical procedure and go through a lot of paternalistic bullshit because there’s a *possibility* that some woman, somewhere, might feel pressured not only to get an abortion but not to seek out counseling if she’s conflicted?

    There’s a possibility that we’re all brains in jars somewhere, but I don’t think that’s a good basis for law. 

  • Isabel C.

    Right. Why should the law respect that theoretical right starting at conception? Why does the law assume that most women who are pregnant will want to continue, when it doesn’t assume that most women who want an abortion will want to go ahead with that?

    Why should it?Why is this compromise even necessary? The pregnancy continues by itself. What would the counseling be about? Presumably, whether to get an abortion or not.

    Let me put it this way: if you require a woman seeking an abortion to sit down for an hour with someone so she can listen to, basically, “Here are the alternatives to and ramifications of abortion,” then you should require a woman seeking to go through with a pregnancy to sit down for an hour with someone who will discuss the alternatives to and ramifications of carrying a child to term.

    I think either one is a dick move, myself. 

  • Münchner Kindl

     Then you deeply misunderstood me. Pointing out how things are done in my country =! saying that my country is better. It serves first as point of interest, as comparision, a different viewpoint. Secondly, yes, in several cases I do point out what I consider a better way – because most topics are US-centric. If you brought up a different topic, I would bring up the plenty faults.

  • Carstonio

    Sounds like the explanation that William Saletan at Slate offers the rape and incest exceptions. He argues that these aren’t really about compromising with pro-choicers, but with soothing the consciences of pro-lifers bothered by making women give birth.

  • Münchner Kindl

     

    Yeah. You did. You claimed that “denying listening” is automatically childish.

    I did not say on any subject, listening to everybody. Taking snippets and exaggerting them to generalities is not what I consider a fair style. Maybe that’s why you get the wrong impression.

  • Rowen

     “Would you advocate the same requirements for any operation? Gastric
    bypass surgery? Laser vision correction? How about pregnancy itself?
    Certainly that’s a situation where women could feel pressure from their
    surroundings.”

    I think we should be clear on what is meant by “counseling.” Because. .  you get counseling before gastric bypass. You don’t just make an appointment with the surgeon and go “snip it, yo.” Same thing with both of my minor knee surgeries. Hell, there was a short counseling session before just about every single HIV test I’ve had.

    Now, I doubt it’ll ever be the case that a woman can just walk into a clinic and go “cut it out, yo,” so, it might be that what I’m thinking of as “counseling” already exists (especially in dealing with the after effects), and what other people are thinking of as counseling is more complex and sit downy and intrusive and Therapist-y.

    Cause I can see the medical/liability necessity to have a referral and/or have a brief “This is what’s going to happen, this is what we’re going to do, this is what most patients felt, physically, this is a normal range of pain, if you see this, this or this, call the office immediately, here’s a few pamphlets going into more detail with some extra resources, do you have any questions?” sorta thing.

  • Carstonio

    an abortion is a failure, somewhere along the line – a failure of
    education, of birth contol, of keeping women safe from unwanted access
    to their bodies, of medical technology, etc.  And one single woman at a
    time should never have to bear the burdens of any or all of these
    societal/systems failures.

    So an abortion is not a good thing, but that is absolutely, utterly not a
    reason to deny women access to safe and legal abortions.  The problem
    of abortion is one to be addressed at a root causes level, not at a
    hurt-women or shame-women or deny-women-some-degree-of-autonomy level.

    I regret that I can only give one like to this. Your words should be carved into marble somewhere.

  • aunursa

    Why would your opinions automatically have value? Because they’re your opinions? Sorry, there are a lot of opinions that aren’t worth the breath it takes to utter them.

    I agree with you on this point.  I see many instances where someone asks or expects respect for their opinion.  Why should every opinion automatically be granted respect?  I can support someone’s right to express an opinion – without respecting the opinion.

  • Beroli

     

    I did not say on any subject, listening to everybody.

    Oh? Explain, then. Why is “denying listening” automatically childish, but only sometimes on some subjects?


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