Especially in Lent, it would be great if Christians could stop sniping at each other or spreading false information and perceptions about each other.
Two Baptist church pamphlets are causing controversy with a Roman Catholic church in Pigeon Forge.
The pamphlet suggests the Roman Catholic church isn’t Christian and the pope is an anti-Christ.
While some people say the pamphlet expresses religious freedom, others say it’s a hate crime.
Father Jay Flaherty, of Holy Cross Catholic Church, said he first learned about the pamphlets when one of his youth brought one to him.
“There’s two of them that really upset me because I knew it would upset the children,” Father Flaherty said. “One’s called the ‘Death Cookie,’ which claims that our communion is from the devil.”
The other pamphlet, titled “Last Rites,” shows cartoon drawings of a Roman Catholic man who isn’t saved because he didn’t accept Christ.
I for one am getting really tired of hearing that Catholics are not Christians, and that we’re unsaved idolators -the ignorant message spread from the lips of seriously misinformed people who have not the charity, it seems, to ask for information and clarification, before spreading cruel slander.
It wouldn’t take much, you know. A “pastor” just has to call up his local Catholic church and ask them, “hey, is this true, or not?”
Christ, of course, is bigger than this kerfluffle, and will do what He will, but I feel terrible for my many very dear (and very fine) Baptist friends, who know better than this “pastor” and yet will be lumped in with him and his ilk, and unjustly caricatured as intolerant ignoramuses because of these stupid, brain-dead (and poorly-drawn, to boot) cartoons.
H/T The Deacon
This isn’t new. These are old Jack Chic tracts from decades ago. They still make the rounds.
[I know it's old. But I thought we'd moved past it. -admin]
I do struggle with the concept of this being taken seriously. I had to restrain myself laughing at “BY THE TIME WE PUT OUR PLANS INTO EFFECT!”
The oddest conspiracies are the ones about Jews. You’d have thought that, if they ran the world, they’d figure out some way of stopping institutional & popular antisemitism.
But it isn’t funny at all, is it?
You get these ideas entrenched, by people who quite simply couldn’t care less about any other way of viewing the world, & they are stick. So I can’t imagine the faithful of Conner Heights being won over by anything.
The funny thing is, I don’t have a favourable view of the Catholic Church or any other religious body, yet I like to hope that the criticisms I have of them are valid. In the same way, I can have Muslim pals & still take a dim view of Islam.
Still, at least you’re spared having to live in the land of the curse of the sodomites.
I was basically left out of my father’s will because my wife and I are Russian Orthodox. To him and the woman he married after my Mother died, we belonged to the “whore” church mentioned in Revelation.
I say “basically” left out because I was mentioned. The will pointed out what had been done for me during my first 50 years of life and why his new wife’s kids were getting the entire estate. They are Christians (Nazarene) and I am not!
I have a mixture of annoyance and pity for these people. They wouldn’t even have the Bible they thump had it not been for the Catholic Church.
I don’t think many protestants have moved on. On certain opinion forums the hatred from some protestants toward Catholics is unbelievable. I was actually shocked. I had not personally experienced it in flesh and blood life. And I have not seen anythinig comparable from the Catholic side toward protestants. The “whore of Babylon” is a constant refrain. Let me just say it’s only some protestants, not a majority or anywhere near one. I will also say that some of the worst offenders are ex-Catholics themselves who have converted over to some form of Evangelicalism.
I’ve seen a lot of this in my 50+ years. Really I thought people had moved past this sort of thing, but when I converted to Catholicism I found out they haven’t. I am dismayed that people are still doing this sort of thing.
Remember during the 2008 campaign, McCain had to distance himself from Hagee at least in part because of this ‘whore of Babylon’ stuff?
I’ve been reading your journal for a while, but I wanted to delurk just to let you know how sorry I am. I’m a Baptist, so I feel partly responsible for these idiots. I can’t believe they’d pull a stunt like this when Good Friday is only four weeks away. You’d think they could spend the time rereading John 17:20-23. Or 1 Corinthians 1:10-17. Or 1 Corinthians 12:13. That one’s short, so I’m going to just go ahead and quote it:
“For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”
I just… Illegitimi non carborundum. Thankfully, I don’t think we’re going to be anywhere near as divided as this in Heaven.
What really gets my goat is when people who call themselves Catholics start launching this kind of lunacy at each other. I’m sure you’ve heard of people who call themselves “Traditional Roman Catholics” and try to make it out like they’re the people who’ve been holding fast to the REAL faith while the Church has been taken over by Satan.
Here’s an example local to myself (and, I presume, to you as well):
link
Pray for them, please, because they really are very misguided and in critical danger of dragging more misguided folk down the hole with them.
As a Catholic I am actually more concerned how the Catholic Priest acted here. Bringing up Columbine? Good grief.
These tracts are nothing new. The Catholic Priest should ahve used it as an opportunity to educate his flock. Now he has just publized the whole JACK CHICK tract thing which most Baptist Churches don’t pass out anymore.
I cannot help but observe that had those tracts been published about MUSLIMS, those Baptists would have been subjected to death threats and riots.
I guess it’s okay to foment hatred against the peaceful!
It’s a mistake to make blanket statements about any group (all it takes is one white crow to invalidate the claim that all crows are black).
There are ignorant people in any denomination or church (by that I mean meeting place, not the Body of Christ). Unfortunately, when the leadership is this ignorant, there is the appearance that everyone who identifies as Baptist (in this case) believes this is true.
Not so, I can assure you. I grew up in a renegade Baptist church and appreciate Roman Catholicism greatly. My brother and his family recently converted to Catholicism, and he and I have some wonderful conversations about our faith and have much in common.
Fear not, Anchoress – we are used to being lumped together with the ignorant and at times downright evil, though interestingly the worst bias I personally experienced was in a United Methodist church.
Please know that there are Baptists out here who are just as tired of this shameful behavior as you are. And this pastor will have much to answer for.
A man in our neighborhood would pass out these “tracts” to children at Halloween. Horrible stuff.
It is unbelievable that people think that way. I’m a Methodist but believe the Catholic Church is holy. Yet I often become angry and have become again seeing the Pope dismiss Ireland’s people’s complaint against the bishops who hid the priests who molested children. Why is the Pope uncaring or scared to dismiss them. I hope and pray Pope John Paul did not do the same: work to keep it all hidden away. If it ever comes to light that he did too then I’ll be crushed. I think I’ll also feel like damning the whole thing. I feel the same about any protestant clergy or anyone who does the same.
tnxplant
I agree with you and I say that as a former Baptist now a Catholic. Needless to say it is not 1840 and that is one reason why I am more disturbed by the Priest’s reaction here.
It seems this “I should not be offended” disease is spreading all over the place in Catholic circles. Even in conservative Catholic circles with the over reaction to Hagee we saw last year IMHO.
If people want to see real persecution go see the Iraqi Catholics. OR heck on a lesser level as we are seeing in Washington D.C. and the Archdioceses
Now I am big on apologetics and there is a need to combat this by gooeducation. But besides that this is really no major deal
@Gayle Miller: similar tracts HAVE BEEN published about Muslims; death threats would not deter these people, because, as someone above has pointed out, they really believe this stuff, and like Muslim suicide bombers who exect to be greeted by nubile virgins the other side of death, these folks almost look forward to martyrdom for their “faithfulness to the Gospel.”
I also agree that there are similarly unenlightened Catholics, plus the large number of Catholics who consider any Protestant who shares his faith a “fundamentalist”. Of course, they would probably also consider a Catholic who shares his faith a “fundamentalist.”
The sentiments aren’t all that hard to find among respectable Evangelicals. Check out the reaction that the Evangelical signers of the Manhattan Declaration got from some of their coreligionists. They attacked the signers for agreeing t
Oh Anchoress,welcome to the South. I am a native Southerner and a cradle Catholic and this is just part of the milieu down here.
After John Paul died, the message on the sign of a local East TN church was “No hope following a hell-bound pope.”
I went to high school a mile from the largest Baptist church in Nashville and spent much time explaining to the members (i.e. my friends) that yes Catholics were actually Christian.
I could give you a hundred other examples, but for a lot of these “pastors,” it isn’t a misunderstanding awaiting correction. It is a deeply held and taught belief.
Of course not every Baptist church teaches this and there is much more acceptance of Catholics now than 40 years ago. I love the South, but anti-Catholicism is part of our dark underbelly.
Anchoress, this incident is from my neck of the woods. I live on North Carolina side of Smoky Mountain National Park while Pigeon Forge is on the Tennessee side. My Baptist neighbors will tell you that Eastern Tennessee is particularly notorious for attracting some of God’s looser cannons as His preachers. We even have the occasional stories of congregations there still practicing snake handling.
Most of the Baptist churches around here are independent. That often means the minister has received little or nothing in the way of a formal theological education. They are often people who felt a calling to Jesus Christ and were charismatic enough to attract some form of a congregation. Weekday jobs are common because they cannot make a living preaching. Followers may think of themselves as peculiar people in the theological meaning of the word, but more often the modern meaning of the word applies. The congregations are insular but more often in the manner of a clique rather than a cult. They splinter and regroup on a regular basis over mundane squabbles.
Catholics are quite scarce around here. I think even the Seventh Day Adventists outnumber us. Several of the regions Catholic parishes are missionary posts, staffed not by Diocesan priests but by the various missionary orders. Most of the congregants are transplants, including a growing Mexican population and a great many seasonal residents who are often far more affluent than the surrounding communities. Thus Catholics carry the burden of being outsiders and frankly sometimes rude and condescending outsiders to boot. I am talking about those part year residents with more money than brains who sneer at the local trailer trash from inside their gated communities outside places like Gatlinburg, Boone, Banner Elk and Maggie Valley. . Yes, sad as it is, some of these pretentious blowhards are nominal Catholics. They can undo all the good work the last two Popes have done to improve the image of Catholics in the local evangelical community.
I have never encountered open anti Catholicism in the seven years I have lived here. In fact, I often get invited to social events at the valley’s independent Baptist Church. This is despite the statues of the Blessed Virgin, the Sacred Heart, St; Joseph and St. Michael the Archangel that grace my garden. If anything, my Baptist neighbors are impressed that I drive 32 miles one way on Sunday -weather permitting- to go to mass. There is, however, very much a sense that any full time resident who is not a member of the local church, the independent Baptist church serving the other side of the mountain or a nearby Methodist congregation is an eccentric. This is tribal, not theological. They’ve lived in this isolated valley for generations and I’m a big city lawyer who went John Galt. When I broke my leg two years ago, my Baptist neighbors put my name on their prayer list. I was told that one member who has gone unnamed, complained about why they should pray for me, but it was because I was seen as an outsider, not because I am Catholic. This person was told that I am a member of their community by virtue of how I treat my neighbors.
It’s blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. What they’re actually saying is that nobody was saved between, oh, just after the Council of Nicea (actually, just after the Resurrection, but I’ll generously concede their point that the Catholic Church is not the “true Church”) and the Reformation, i.e., that God couldn’t protect His Church and its doctrine enough for it to be efficacious for over a millennium. If they want to worship a god that lame, they’re welcome to him.
When I graduated in ’01, my mom went looking for a nice pocket Bible– full Catholic Bible, but small enough to fit in the box I’d get at boot camp.
Ended up going to the “Christian Book Store” (actual name) and couldn’t find any good non-KJV Bibles, so asked at the desk.
Little chicky behind the desk sniffed and informed her they wouldn’t have Catholic Bibles because they’re a Christian book store.
…
Some angel must’ve been there to nudge, because my mom went into lecture mode instead of getting mad, and gave her a run-down of Bible history, as well as that of the Church. ^.^
Time to sic Karl Keating on them!
One additional point I would like to make. It does bother me that Catholics rarely refer to themselves as Christians. They are simply Catholic. Orthodox do the same, referring to themselves as Orthodox rather than Christians.
EWTN constantly makes reference to Catholic as opposed to Christian. So it should not come as a surprise that many think that we are, in fact, NOT Christians! After all, we don’t claim to be!
I’m afraid I simply ignore such things.
I consider them part of the wholly alien eccentricities of a particular form of Protestant fundamentalism.
I’ve been accosted once or twice in blogs over “creation science” or those “End Times” stories only for the puzzled culprit to discover that they’re not significant preoccupations for me as a Catholic.
There are, I fear, limits to ecumenism. I’m comfortable and content with Catholic practices; my Protestant co-religionists are comfortable and content with theirs.
We all worship God and Christ.
Sometimes that’s as good as it gets.
JH – you are so right!
It worries me if our reaction to hateful speech is such shock, or even anger – it’s not like Christ didn’t warn us to expect it, and tell us how we should respond.
And as for legally charging this as ‘hate speech’ or preventing them from spreading these tracts – don’t try to stop a blessing! These tracts make the hate filled silliness so apparent so ridiculous. Any church who would stoop to such levels labels themselves, and their members, for exactly what they are. And they give us the chance to present ourselves as the faithful, patient, and loving body of Christ that we are.
My mom is a baptist raised not 2 hours from Gatlinburg, and my dad is Catholic. My sister and I were raised with both — and we both heard some judgemental lies from both churches over the years -including that the other parent would not go to heaven. In the end my sister joined the Baptist church and I went through RCIA to become Catholic.
If we can’t as a Catholic church respond to hate and lies with love and truth, as we are called to do, then the real injury the tracts will do to us is exposing that fact.
Err — if they didn’t think the Catholic Church false, how would they justify their schism?
I think it’s redundant to call ourselves Christian. We are the Christian Church -always have been, always will be. It doesn’t need to be said.
I guess I could be wrong.
“Err — if they didn’t think the Catholic Church false, how would they justify their schism?” -Mary
I think it’s a question of degree. To say that they interpret Christianity by Sola Scriptura is one thing and a respectful justification; to call the whole Roman Catholic Church the whore of Babylon is another.
I, too, have heard several people say, “I’m not Christian, I’m Catholic.” For people who live in areas of the deep South where Catholics are pretty thin on the ground, this can be very confusing.
[Sarah! I have been praying for you and wondering where you were! I tried to email you and the email was returned! So good to see you! Oh, and I think these Catholics that say "I'm not Christian, I'm Catholic" probably mean: "I'm not Protestant," but for whatever reason, don't say it -admin]
“To say that they interpret Christianity by Sola Scriptura is one thing and a respectful justification; to call the whole Roman Catholic Church the whore of Babylon is another.”
Indeed. I find it interesting, and more than a little sad that I had to explain to a former Catholic co-worker, that Cathoilics are indeed Christians.
He looked at me and asked how I could say that, considering that I am a Lutheran.
I spoke to him at length and explained what I meant, but he was having none of it.
What a shame.
that just pushes the question back. if sola scripture is required, how can you explain the entire church lapsing from it for over a millennium with some such explanation?
The same who speak such foolishness will tell you that everything in the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the truths to be revealed in the New Testament. Therefore, my question to such people would be, “What does the Mana in the desert foreshadow? The bread from heaven to nourish the body… It can only foreshadow the Bread from Heaven to nourish the Soul!”
Maybe I shouldn’t put this here, take it or leave it, but once felling sorry for all my Protestant bothers and sisters in purgatory who wouldn’t have family praying for them or have the sacrifice of the Mass done for them to shorten their stay and help their passage to Heaven (just like Isaiah had to be cleansed with a burning coal from the tabernacle, so do we before we can be in the “presence” of God in Heaven, and what could be more “staining” than the breaking apart of the Body of Christ, His Church) I started having Masses said for the leaders of the Protestant Reformation. I had no trouble having a Mass said for Martin Luther, but when it came to John Calvin, as I started entering the request in the computer, the computer crashed. It happened multiple times until I gave up. I took it to mean one thing and one thing only, since no Mass is ever wasted, even if a person is already in Heaven…
I don’t mean to open a can of worms, therefore don’t get on the Anchoress case for what I’ve written. I’m just an individual, not a Church spokesman etc…
Iris Celeste
I don’t understand why anyone has a problem with a Catholic referring to him- or herself as a “Catholic” rather than a “Christian.”
You can be a Christian without being a Catholic, but you cannot be a Catholic without being a Christian, so saying “Catholic” includes “Christian” but is also more specific and precise.
Why is this a bother for some people?
“that just pushes the question back. if sola scripture is required, how can you explain the entire church lapsing from it for over a millennium with some such explanation?” -Mary
What some Protestants argue is that the Church was illigitamate from the beginning. Some argue that there is no need for a Church. I had one fellow tell me something to the effect, “don’t believe in a religion, believe in the bible.” Some Evangelicals don’t believe in a Church structure whatsoever: it’s you, the Bible, and God. And then I might return with, then where’s community and how are sacrements supposed to be carried out?
I am Pastor in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church. I think on any given Sunday we confess that we believe “in the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of the Saints,” &c. I would think that this would include ALL confessing Christian no matter what our Theological tiffs. I would think that Romans 10:8ff would tend to solve all this non-sense. But, when Satan gets loose seeking whom he will devour, you just cannot tell what will happen.
Don’t worry, HE’ll be along bymbye to make all things new.
As a Baptist who grew up in a Catholic neighborhood and has one side of my family Catholic, all I can say is if someone really wants to know about the Catholic Church (or the Baptist church for that matter) it’s best to go to an authority figure in the Church and ask the questions instead of smearing the faith with outrageous lies.
One interesting thing is this so-called “pastor” says the Pope is the anti-Christ. Well, Baptists believe we will never know who the anti-Christ is while on this earth because by the time he shows himself Jesus will have already taken the “dead in Christ and we who are alive and remain” to be with Him forevermore. This happens before the Tribulation, and I honestly believe Jesus will not allow His Church (body of believers), His Bride to go through the Tribulation.
Shows you how much this guy knows. Besides, you can laugh at us for taking a broken piece of bread for communion if you want.
And, of course, these are the same yokels who think that drinking any alcohol is a terrible sin against the Lord. You know, the same Lord whose first miracle was turning huge amounts of water into huge amounts of wine. I know I shouldn’t disparage, I need to pray for understanding…but good gracious, God wants us to use the common sense He gave us! (I’m Lutheran, by the way, in case you wanted to know.)
Someone mentioned that we say things in the Old Testament point to things in the New Testament.
The Old Testament gives the lineage of Christ. The story of Ruth tells us she married after her first husband died and married into the line of David, from which our Lord descended through Mary.
Moses being the chosen leader of the Israelites shows us Christ is the King of Kings. Moses also had to be hidden when he was born because the Pharaoh was out to kill all Hebrew boys, just as Herod was determined to kill Hebrew boys under the age of two to make sure the King of Kings would not live.
The Israelites of the New Testament could trace their lineage to the 12 sons of Jacob and determine which tribe they belonged to.
Daniel, Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego were taken to live in what is now Iraq and exiled from Israel, just as Israel was scattered in 70 AD until May, 1946.
The parallels are there if we search and ask God to reveal to us what He wants us to see.
Many don’t like to talk about end-times, but we’d better look at it because Jesus gave the signs of the end. You can pick up a newspaper or watch the news on television and read Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation and other books and swear the two are the same.
The stage for Christ’s return is set. It’s up to the Father to determine the day, but we know by the signs it can’t be far off. We are the generation that saw the fig tree bloom (Israel become one nation again) and Jesus said the generation that witnessed this would not all pass away before He returns.
Anchoress or anyone else who can answer me, I have a question. It’s a sincere question to which I have no answer.
Catholics believe we all go to purgatory when we die and that prayers and masses must be said to get us out of there and into heaven.
What happens to a person who dies and is not Catholic so no one prays for their soul? Does that person stay in purgatory or go to hell, or does that person have a chance to get out and go to heaven?
We don’t believe in purgatory or praying for the dead, so my question is truly seeking knowledge of the Catholic faith. I hope no one is offended.
Thanks for any answers.
[I am on my way out to pick up Buster from the airport; in New Yorkeese that translates to a bit of time; hopefully Bender or someone can answer? -admin]
There is the current onslaught against christians worldwide, and it should surprise nobody.
As the Bible teaches us, Jesus stated: “They will ridicule you,hate you, persecute you, haul you into courts, and kill you. But remember, they did these things to me before you!”
I think these words tells us everything we need to know, and nothing should really surprise us. I am honest when I say, that the ‘Goden Rule: Treat your neighbor as you want to be treated” is many times forgotten. Nothing surprises me anymore, and ties right into everything else going on around us.
What we can do is to keep the faith!
Short and incomplete answer to Jeanette: I don’t think there is anyone in Purgatory who goes un-prayed-for. Catholics offer Masses and pray for people they know, but also, quite often, simply for the souls in Purgatory, whoever they may be.
“Catholics believe we all go to purgatory when we die and that prayers and masses must be said to get us out of there and into heaven.
What happens to a person who dies and is not Catholic so no one prays for their soul? Does that person stay in purgatory or go to hell, or does that person have a chance to get out and go to heaven?” -Jeanette
Actually that’s not quite right. Not all souls go to purgatory. Some go to hell and some go to heaven. Also, the process of praying for a soul in purgatory potentially helps that soul end his/her purgation quicker. The thinking there I think is that that soul had developed some love bonds on earth and so is worthy of mercy. I don’t know, Icould be wrong with that last part. But all souls in Purgatory will eventually make it to heaven. It’s a question of purgation time. You can read all about purgatory
here.
My personal belief, and this is astray from Catholic doctrine, so don’t take this as a Catholic position, all souls will eventually reach heaven after proper purgation. This is called the Universalist position. If God and Christ are all compassion and merciful, I see no other position but to be Universalist, after proper justice (the pains of hell or purgatory). You can read about the Universalist position here.
Catholics believe we all go to purgatory when we die and that prayers and masses must be said to get us out of there and into heaven.
What happens to a person who dies and is not Catholic so no one prays for their soul? Does that person stay in purgatory or go to hell, or does that person have a chance to get out and go to heaven?
There was a long discussion on purgatory here a few months back that might be helpful.
But to address the question–
I’m afraid your premises are incorrect. Catholics do not believe that everyone goes to purgatory, and we do not believe that prayers, etc. must be said as a ticket out of there.
On the latter point, it is helpful that they are said, it is an act of charity, which is good for the person praying as well as the person prayed for, but when the deceased is sufficiently purged, i.e. purified in order to be holy enough to enter that holy place called heaven, then he or she is in heaven, whether or not anyone ever prayed for them. But, as a general matter, there is no one in purgatory that is not prayed for. They may not be prayed for by name or even specifically remembered, but prayers are said for all those deceased who are known and unknown. To be sure, I would think that most people die without anyone ever praying for them and many are long forgotten moments after they take their last breath.
As for the former premise — Catholics believe that there are basically three possible “destinations” immediately after death, following a personal “judgment” — heaven or hell, both of which are permanant, or purgatory, which is intermediate. (1) If you are in a state of mortal sin, if you have indicated by your life that you have no desire of being with God, He will grant you your wish and you won’t have to spend eternity with Him, you can spend it with yourself instead, i.e. hell. (2) However, if you are not in a state of mortal sin, but are instead in a state of complete and holy grace, wanting to be with Him, then you will be with Him immediately in heaven. (3) Many of us, of course, are neither competely opposed to God nor completely holy. We have alongside a sincere desire for God some residual imperfections, some less-than-perfect behaviors, actions, thoughts, which one might call “venial” sin. Now, only the perfect can enter that state of perfection that is heaven, so those imperfections must be purged from us, we must be purified “by fire,” just as gold is purified. Purgatory is nothing more than this process of perfecting, of purifying, of sanctifying. Now, purification might very well involve some level of discomfort for the person being purified, but it is a “good kind of pain.”
The process is the same for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. The “last things” are the same for everyone. You don’t need to formally be a member of the Catholic Church to be in heaven, but anyone that is in heaven is necessarily saved by Jesus through His Body, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (even if he is a Jew or Muslim or other non-Christian), and we do believe that our Catholic faith, with its sacraments, is more helpful for attaining that eternal life with God than not having it. However, with the fullness of truth comes the obligations of that fullness, so there are more opportunities for falling short.
A non-Catholic in purgatory certainly can reach heaven and, by virtue of even being there, rather than hell, such person is certain to get there eventually, understanding though, that purgatory is not so much a place, and that it is not so much subject to temporality — it is outside of time and space — but is instead a state of being and process. If they are in purgatory, they will go to heaven — that is the entire point of purgatory — even without someone to pray for them specifically by name. They are prayed for generally (“all the faithful departed”), not only by those still here on earth, but by the saints already in heaven. Although only Jesus is the Savior, all are called to participate in His work of salvation. We are called to carry His Cross, to love God and one another, including praying for them to be with He who is Love after they have departed from this earth.
I just responded, but my comment on purgatory ended up in comment purgatory. Rather than re-post it, I’ll kindly ask our dear Anchoress to free it.
One thing I didn’t mention in my prior comment that ended up in the spam folder –
Regarding our obligation in charity and truth to participate in the work of salvation by Jesus, to help Him in His work, God does a lot of things for us. A lot. None of which we particularly deserve.
He created the world for us. He gave the world to us. He gave us our life. He gives us love and affection. And He gives us salvation — He saves those of us, and those of our loved ones, who will be saved, who accept His offer of salvation. He does a lot for us.
And it would be nice and right and proper if we were to do the polite thing and kindly ask Him for it, and not merely automatically assume that He is going to do it as if it is owed to us. It is right and proper that, when a loved one dies, that we explicitly ask God, “Lord, please take our loved one into your arms. He wasn’t perfect, he had some flaws here and there, and he did on occasion do wrong. But all-in-all, he was a good guy, and we loved him. Though he was a sinner, we trust in your mercy and love. Do not consider what he truly deserves, but grant him your forgiveness. Thank you, Lord.”
So, pray for the dead. It is an act of charity and mercy for the deceased, and it is an act of love and gratitude and worship to God.
These are among the prayers for the dead, known and unknown, said at every Mass –
Remember, Lord, those who have died and have gone before us marked with the sign of faith, especially those for whom we now pray: _________ . May these, and all who sleep in Christ, find in your presence light, happiness, and peace.
or
Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin Mother of God, with the apostles, and with all the saints who have done your will throughout the ages.
or
In mercy and love unite all you children wherever they may be. Welcome into your kingdom our departed brothers and sisters, and all who have left this world in your friendship. We hope to enjoy for ever the vision of your glory, through Christ our Lord, from whom all good things come.
or
Remember those who take part in this offering, those here present and all your people, and all who seek you with a sincere heart. Remember those who have died in the peace of Christ and all the dead whose faith is known to you alone. Father, in your mercy grant also to us, your children, to enter into our heavenly inheritance in the company of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, and your apostles and saints. Then, in your kingdom, freed from the corruption of sin and death, we shall sing your glory with every creature through Christ our Lord, through whom you give us everything that is good.
“The process is the same for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. The “last things” are the same for everyone. You don’t need to formally be a member of the Catholic Church to be in heaven, but anyone that is in heaven is necessarily saved by Jesus through His Body, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (even if he is a Jew or Muslim or other non-Christian), and we do believe that our Catholic faith, with its sacraments, is more helpful for attaining that eternal life with God than not having it….
A non-Catholic in purgatory certainly can reach heaven and, by virtue of even being there, rather than hell, such person is certain to get there eventually, understanding though, that purgatory is not so much a place, and that it is not so much subject to temporality — it is outside of time and space — but is instead a state of being and process….Although only Jesus is the Savior, all are called to participate in His work of salvation.” –Bender
I believe that’s a contemporary Catholic Church position (Vatican II? – not sure) but it does come very close to the Universalist view that I advocate. Yes, one needs to go through Jesus to get to heaven, but I personally have maintained (and perhaps this is a Catholic Church position and I never realized it) that there is nothing in the Bible that says that accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior cannot occur in the afterlife. Once He manifests Himself, then all those who have not had the good fortune to be born in Christianity nor had the will to convert have a chance at salvation by accepting Him. Christ the Good Shepherd will gather all the sheep into one fold.
“If you are in a state of mortal sin, if you have indicated by your life that you have no desire of being with God, He will grant you your wish and you won’t have to spend eternity with Him, you can spend it with yourself instead, i.e. hell.” –Bender
That is the one issue that tests my Universalist position. I waiver on the notion of whether atheists can actually get into heaven. Denial of God is such an absence of holiness that it may be unreedmable. But on the other hand denial of God doesn’t mean that one is absent of love in one’s heart, and that love is Christ, or at least touches on Christ, and so perhaps it is redeemable. So ultimately I lean toward God’s mercy extending to them too.
Hope people don’t mind me pontificating.
Just my thoughts. Take them for what their worth.
that there is nothing in the Bible that says that accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior cannot occur in the afterlife. Once He manifests Himself, then all those who have not had the good fortune to be born in Christianity nor had the will to convert have a chance at salvation by accepting Him. Christ the Good Shepherd will gather all the sheep into one fold.
Manny, where does it say that in the Bible?
Manny, the desire to see everyone saved is understandable. But I would submit that there are some problems with that sentiment, laudable as it may be.
All those who have not had the good fortune to be born in Christianity or to have even heard of the name “Jesus” still nevertheless have to opportunity in this life to know Him and to, therefore, accept Him in their hearts (see Mt. 25:37-40), so an opportunity after death is not really necessary.
As for those who did not have the will to convert, sadly for them, their will be done. They cannot accept Jesus in the “afterlife” because they have chosen not to accept that afterlife, they have instead chosen the after-death. And after death, the time for choosing is past.
There is a time when it does become too late. Is God supposed to stand around forever waiting for dead people to choose life? He is the God of the living. If some dead person were to take 10 trillion years before saying, “OK, I accept,” is God really supposed to wait? And if there is such a limit on God’s offer, is not death the most appropriate “deadline”?
The Good Shepherd will indeed gather all the sheep into one fold, but sadly not everyone wants to be a sheep – some choose to be a goat (see Mt. 25:33, 41-46), and they commit the one sin that is unforgiveable by its very nature, the refusal to accept God’s mercy and forgiveness. (see Mt. 12:31-32) In His love, which does not force itself on anyone, God respects that choice.
Besides, the God of Divine Mercy does not need to ask people after they have died whether they accept Him. God is eternal, He is beyond and outside of time. He already knows at the moment of your death what your defintive choice is. Indeed, He already knew what your definitive choice was going to be before you were born because, being outside of time, it has already happened for Him.
In order for someone to choose to accept Jesus after death, assuming for the sake of the argument that such could happen, it would be necessary for there to be at least an ember of possible love for God, no matter how slight, at the moment the person died so as to be carried over into the other realm. If there is such an ember at death, Jesus already knows. The existence of such an ember is known and taken into account by Him at the “individual judgment.”
Is such an ember enough? Is a mere tiny flicker of contrition sufficient to eventually attain heaven?
Those are really questions for the Lord of Divine Mercy to answer. But do we really want to take that risk? True enough, God can take a flickering ember and make a roaring flame out of it, but do we really want to gamble on that being enough?
Better to have a genuine and authentic and sincere desire for Love and Truth, a desire to do good and avoid evil, for real sorrow at all the ways you have fallen short in life, and a desire to be with the One who is the fullness of love and truth and life.
“Manny, where does it say that in the Bible?” -Bender’s Cheerleader.
If you’re referring to the afterlife acceptance of Christ, it doesn’t. Back in post #42, I said this was my personal view and definitely not Catholic doctrine. I am interpreting the good shepherd parable from John Chapter 10.
14. I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me,
15. just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.
16. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.
“If some dead person were to take 10 trillion years before saying, “OK, I accept,” is God really supposed to wait?” -Bender
Infinite time, infinite mercy, infinite love, unconditional love. We are all God’s children, He created us all, He will absorb us all. Those other sheep will hear His voice.
I don’t ask anyone to accept it. Just sharing my thoughts.
Manny — infinite mercy, infinite love, unconditional love? Absolutely. But is time “infinite”?
God is eternal, to be sure, but does that mean that time is infinite, that it is forever ongoing?
Now, if we are to accept either Genesis or the Big Bang Theory, time definitely had a beginning, so the past is finite.
Science cannot answer the question of the future, but scripture is quite clear that there will be an end of the world at some point. That is, that the future is finite as well, that, at some point, time itself will come to an end.
So, if there is an end point, does that not mean that time is finite and, thus, the time for one to make his definitive choice is finite? Certainly one make his choice before the end of time? And, again, if one could somehow make his choice after the end of time, would not the all-knowing God already know that he would have made that choice, such that God does not have to wait?