It's the Rapture Round-up! – UPDATED

Comments

1. Chuck Pelto says:
   May 22, 2011 at 1:04 am

   P.P.S. If you haven’t GOT a ‘puzzle’….

   …why are you bothering attempts at shooting down mine?
2. Joseph Marshall says:
   May 22, 2011 at 2:36 am

   What I personally think is that Revelation is pointed more toward the human, and particularly the Christian, spirit than it is toward any outward history. It is a travelogue that you could re-christen What Will Happen When You Get To Meet God.

   It seems to me that the most important part of it is the initial messages to the specific churches, which generally say “Behold, I come quickly, so clean up your act!” And the earliest time He is likely to come to most of us is after our bodies are permanently horizontal.

   What comes after is a description of what the encounter with the Chambers Of The Throne will be like. And the description is quite a good incentive to clean up your act.

   A lot of why I think this is because I’m Buddhist and I have Tibetan teachers. John’s vision compares quite closely to what the Tibetans teach about the first seven weeks after death. You can read about it in any of the many versions of The Tibetan Book of the Dead which are out there.

   Now I can offer no direct evidence to support this, and I don’t insist on it, particularly to Christians who have studied the text closely and with care. But I see no reason to think it is a literal description of World History since the time of St. John and beyond our own moment. Certainly it speaks of events that I’ve never read of in any history book. And also is very much silent about a lot of the history that I do know.

   This being so, I think the burden of proof that it is about World History lies with anyone who asserts this. And unless they are prepared to do more than link a chapter and verse or two with one or two isolated historical events, they really have not proven much of anything.

   As I remember, you live out in Colorado and I am in Ohio, so any non-virtual socializing is probably a long way off. We have been abusing Patheos’ bandwidth outrageously. I no longer blog, but if you write Elizabeth and ask for my e-mail address to continue the discussion, I have no problem with her giving it to you.
3. Elaine T says:
   May 22, 2011 at 3:09 am

   It’s not that I don’t understand that John may have been trying to describe a nuclear meltdown (although after checking the text I don’t see it) or war-copters (that I’ve only seen in photos). It’s that he could have been seeing things that he could apply to more or less contemporary events, that also apply to later ones, like the Gulf War. Like Isaiah’s prophecy of a virgin which was fulfilled in his time, and then really fulfilled by Mary and Jesus. (Don’t ask what the contemporary-to-Isaiah-fulfillment was, I heard it in a sermon, no footnotes, and I don’t remember the details.)

   Our current study of John’s Gospel, taught me that the author was marinated in OT stuff, and references to the OT and to Temple ritual are all over the place. With that in mind, I’d tend to look at Revelation along those lines.

   In closing, though, I’m glad I’m a Catholic and don’t have to swallow Rapture stuff. I don’t think it’s a good way to think or to live.
4. Jon D says:
   May 22, 2011 at 3:13 am

   One thing I never understood – is it 6:00 Eastern time? Central? Pacific? GMT? Jerusalem time? I wish these people would be more specific so I can put it on my schedule.
5. Elaine S. says:
   May 22, 2011 at 12:03 pm

   “Don’t ask what the contemporary-to-Isaiah fullfillment was… I don’t remember the details.”

   The context of that prophecy was that King Ahaz was under siege by foreign enemies, and Isaiah encouraged him to seek a sign from God, which Ahaz refused to do; and Isaiah responded by saying “the Lord himself will give you a sign; the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and call his name Emmanuel.”

   However Isaiah goes on to say (paraphrasing here, don’t have my Bible in front of me) that by the time this child reaches the age of reason “the land of those two kings whom you dread will be deserted.”

   In this case, the “virgin” in question was Ahaz’s future wife, who at that time was still a young girl, and the child she bore was the future king Hezekiah, who was renowned for his holiness and devotion to the true God. Isaiah was saying that by the time Ahaz and his future wife were married and had a child old enough to tell right from wrong, the military threat he was so concerned about would be gone.

   But as you point out, many Bibilcal prophecies have multiple layers of meaning.
6. Chuck Pelto says:
   May 22, 2011 at 1:32 pm

   TO: Joseph Marshall, et al.
   RE: Still Unwilling….

   ….to face the truth?

   Not a problem for me. I find that the case in many instances where people have bought into some theory so deeply that anything contrary to that theory MUST be debunked. Even if it IS true.

   It’s a common problem amongst human beings. Christ even had to deal with it in His sojourn, vis-a-vis the Sanhedrin. And look what they did to Him!

   Regards,

   Chuck(le)
   [The only perfect human being got nailed to a cross for His temerity.]
7. joe in houston says:
   May 22, 2011 at 4:44 pm

   the ridicule that so many feel so free to heap upon camping about his prediction that the rapture would happen yesterday doesn’t seem to be humor because he was wrong so much as relief that he was wrong. think about it
8. Joseph Marshall says:
   May 22, 2011 at 5:35 pm

   So far those pieces are falling into to their proper places in this interesting ‘puzzle’.

   Or can YOU explain away Chernobyl v. Wormwood and Rev 9 v. Operations DESERT SHIELD/DESERT STORM.

   Okay, I’ll put my explanation aside and travel down the road with you as far as you’ve managed to get: that’s two pieces from 2000 years of history to work with. It’s also 2 verses from one chapter and 19 verses from another out of 22 full chapters.

   Now what else have you got? If you were ordered, as an officer of the 82nd Airbourne, to deal with what’s going to happen next, would you call what you have truly actionable intelligence?

   Let’s make an assumption: John’s visions are in strict serial order. I think that’s a very big assumption under the circumstances, but let’s make it.

   That means you ought to be able to take back bearings all the way back to 4:1 and establish some collateral from the 1900 years of history from the Crucifixion to the first Iraq War. Have you done so? For example, when in the timeline was the sixth seal opened in 6:12? All that stuff that happens from there until 6:17 ought to have caught somebody’s notice. So what historical events are being described here?

   From that point forward, who were the 144,000 of the Children of Israel who were marked on the forehead? Were there any Gentiles involved? When did it happen? The text says they are already in Heaven. How did they get there? And when?

   So what was the censer with the fire of the altar and when did it land?

   and there followed thunders, and voices, and lightnings, and an earthquake….and there followed hail and fire, mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of the earth was burnt up, and the third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up….a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood….

   Did anybody notice? Where in the timeline should we place these?

   and the third part of the stars; that the third part of them should be darkened, and the day should not shine for the third part of it, and the night in like manner.

   Presumably this also happened before 1990. When?

   And out of the smoke came forth locusts upon the earth….They have over them as king the angel of the abyss: his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek tongue he hath the name Apollyon.

   So who is this? George H.W. Bush?

   Have the four angels bound at the Euphrates been loosened already? Are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks already standing before the Lord of the Earth?

   Or is all this other stuff just symbolic and only the nuclear meltdown and the dance of the Apache helicopters refer to events that we know happened?
9. Chuck Pelto says:
   May 22, 2011 at 7:41 pm

   TO: Joseph Marshall
   RE: Engagement, At Last!

   So far those pieces are falling into to their proper places in this interesting ‘puzzle’.

   Or can YOU explain away Chernobyl v. Wormwood and Rev 9 v. Operations DESERT SHIELD/DESERT STORM.

   Okay, I’ll put my explanation aside and travel down the road with you as far as you’ve managed to get: that’s two pieces from 2000 years of history to work with. It’s also 2 verses from one chapter and 19 verses from another out of 22 full chapters.

   Now what else have you got? — Joseph Marshall

   Just watching all these ‘thunders’ going on of late. Wars and earthquakes in ‘diverse places’.

   If you were ordered, as an officer of the 82nd Airbourne, to deal with what’s going to happen next, would you call what you have truly actionable intelligence? — Joseph Marshall

   That’s a big ‘YES’. It goes back to my Boy Scout days….”Be Prepared”. Even He said, “You don’t know the hour in which the thief will come.”

   Let’s make an assumption: John’s visions are in strict serial order. I think that’s a very big assumption under the circumstances, but let’s make it. — Joseph Marshall

   I’m not so sure that it’s a “strict serial order”. But that’s a digression best addressed on a different thread/blog.
   However, I do point out that the CGSC’s course segment on Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield (IPB) DID allow my compatriots and I to suppose that the Named Area of Interest (NAI) would demonstrate the sort of action, i.e., open warfare in the Euphrates River Valley at precisely the date specified in that Old Book. That is what we in the Army call a ‘key indicator’.

   That means you ought to be able to take back bearings all the way back to 4:1 and establish some collateral from the 1900 years of history from the Crucifixion to the first Iraq War. Have you done so? For example, when in the timeline was the sixth seal opened in 6:12? All that stuff that happens from there until 6:17 ought to have caught somebody’s notice. So what historical events are being described here? — Joseph Marshall

   That’s a ‘strawman’ arg. And, as I stated above, I’m hardly the be-all-end-all of Bible studies. All I know is what I know. And I offer that as a ‘heads-up’, as we say in the Army….things are ‘happening’, and the wise will pay attention. Those that have ears….let them hear.

   From that point forward, who were the 144,000 of the Children of Israel who were marked on the forehead? Were there any Gentiles involved? When did it happen? The text says they are already in Heaven. How did they get there? And when? — Joseph Marshall

   Maybe someone else could explain that better than I could. Better ask them…whomever they may be. In the meantime, just because I am not the be-all-end-all of Bible study, doesn’t mean my reports are not honest and accurate.

   So what was the censer with the fire of the altar and when did it land?

   and there followed thunders, and voices, and lightnings, and an earthquake….and there followed hail and fire, mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of the earth was burnt up, and the third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up….a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood….

   Did anybody notice? Where in the timeline should we place these?

   and the third part of the stars; that the third part of them should be darkened, and the day should not shine for the third part of it, and the night in like manner.

   Presumably this also happened before 1990. When? — Joseph Marshall

   You’ll have to ask someone else about that. All I could do is speculate on it.

   And out of the smoke came forth locusts upon the earth….They have over them as king the angel of the abyss: his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek tongue he hath the name Apollyon.

   So who is this? George H.W. Bush? — Joseph Marshall

   Glad you brought that up. Got a good World Atlas? Look at the cities near the mouth of the Euphrates River. Notice anything similar to what you posted?

   And, as with Chernobyl and other ‘principalities’ in Revelation, there’s likely to be an angel, good or evil, associated with such. In this instance ‘evil’.

   Have the four angels bound at the Euphrates been loosened already? Are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks already standing before the Lord of the Earth? — Joseph Marshall

   I’d call that a big ‘YES’.

   Or is all this other stuff just symbolic and only the nuclear meltdown and the dance of the Apache helicopters refer to events that we know happened? — Joseph Marshall

   Wish I could talk to John about all the stuff I don’t quite understand. It would make life a lot easier.

   But, I continue to tell people that it’s latter than many of them like to think.

   My general point is that the Word is understandable if you look at it from the perspective of the person who gave it to us, via a vision from God. And it’s not just in Revelation that that is true. It’s also true in Genesis and that ‘seven day’ business.

   But that’s another ‘story’….topical thread…..

   Regards,

   Chuck(le)
   [The Truth will out....one way or another....]

   P.S. As you mentioned earlier, bandwidth and all, maybe this discussion could be moved to a different venue.
10. Chuck Pelto says:
    May 22, 2011 at 7:46 pm

    TO: Elaine T
    RE: Not ‘Seeing’ It

    It’s not that I don’t understand that John may have been trying to describe a nuclear meltdown (although after checking the text I don’t see it) or war-copters (that I’ve only seen in photos). — Elaine T

    Not my problem. As He said, “Having eyes, they do not see.”

    On the other hand, two tours with the 82d, we used helicopters a LOT.

    One day I was coaching my battalion team in the semi-finals of a post-wide soccer competition.

    During the game it looked like every helicopter on Fort Bragg flew over the playing field. The sensation was as if we were standing in the middle of the Ben Hur chariot race.

    Now, do go back and read John’s report of what the sound of those ‘locust’ was like.

    Regards,

    Chuck(le)
    [And having ears, they do not hear.]
11. Chuck Pelto says:
    May 22, 2011 at 7:49 pm

    P.S. Come over to my blog and I’ll provide a line-by-line description of how the Apache AH64 attack helicopter compares to the first part of Rev 9…..
12. Chuck Pelto says:
    May 22, 2011 at 7:58 pm

    P.P.S. We can discuss Operation DESERT STORM, as it relates to Rev 9 at a later date.
13. Chuck Pelto says:
    May 22, 2011 at 8:07 pm

    TO: All
    RE: In the Aftermath

    I suppose that Camping and company are still around. Otherwise the so-called LameStreamMedia is doing a superb job of covering up their absence.

    As it is written, no one knows the day or the hour of His return.

    And, as I’ve stated earlier and elsewhere, Camping is just another ‘proof’ of the accuracy of what is written in that Old Book. That false prophets will be plentiful in these ‘Latter Days’.

    Just abide in the Word and you should be on the right path.

    Regards,

    Chuck(le)
    [Even so...Come Lord Jesus....Come....]
14. newton says:
    May 22, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    Elaine (and Chuck, for that matter),

    I did a quick Google search on Josephus’ “War” and found the specific section in question. Chapter 5, Section 3. There were indeed lots of false prophets and “signs and wonders” before the destruction of the Temple by the Romans, just as predicted in Matthew 24. The quotes that I found fascinating:

    “Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.”

    “[A]lso before the Jews’ rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, [...] so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.”

    Probably the most significant ones are below:

    “Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. [... T]he men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.”

    Then, this:

    “[A]few days after that feast, [...] before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.”“
    

    Notice the phrases in bold, all emphasis mine here.

    Have I read about these signs before? Oh yes! These are close enough to the signs recorded in the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel.

    “[T]he glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims. [...]every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD’s house [...]“

    This is reinforced by these two other verses, later on in the last parts of the book, when the Heavenly Temple is established on Earth:

    “And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.”

    And:

    “Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.

    Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

    Just as Ezekiel wrote about visions and prophecies predicting the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Babylonians of yore and the reasons for it, Josephus recorded these things reported to him by his contemporaries.

    Since we all know for sure Josephus was familiar with Ezekiel… well, so was the Apostle Paul, who was a rabbi in training under Gamaliel before he became one of “our team”. Don’t be surprised that he brings it back when he tells the Thessalonians on his treatise on the return of Christ:

    “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [The followers of this guy Camping should have read this first before believing a single word he sputtered - or giving away their hard-earned money.]

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [Again, Camping's followers should have read the Apostle Paul before believing the stupidity coming from that man's mouth.]

    And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [The NIV interprets this as "And now you know what is holding him - the "man of Sin" - back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. " Obviously, this is not the proper time... yet.]

    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let [The NIV says this as "the one who now holds it back will continue to do so"], until he be taken out of the way.

    And then shall that Wicked be revealed, [...]

    Who’s this “he” who needs to be “taken out of the way”?

    “He” is the shechinah, the Glory of the LORD, which inhabited the Temple in Jerusalem until it departed shortly before the destruction of the city and the Temple by the Babylonians, and the very same “He” that departed before the Romans left “not a single stone unturned” of the destroyed Temple in 70 A.D.

    The early Christians were instructed by Paul that the Presence of the Lord, the shechinah, which was first manifested in its glory to the Jews at Mount Sinai right as God pronounced the Ten Commandments (Exodus 19 and 20) and first manifested to the Christians in Jesus’ Very Person and at Pentecost with the Tongues of Fire, will one day depart from this world, before “all H-e-l-l breaks loose.”

    Did the Apostle Paul predict that this would happen with “the Rapture” that he talked about in his fist letter to the Thessalonians? Not really. He talked about Christians being delivered from the Wrath of God, but not about Christians being spared persecution and even death for their faith. He said the dead in Christ would rise first and then the living ones will be “caught up” (Greek: “harpagēsometha”, from \harpazō\, old verb to seize,
    to carry off like Latin _rapio_) into the air to meet with Jesus one day. He didn’t say Christians would be spared the persecution of the Last Days. In fact, Jesus Himself predicted that His followers will be persecuted an even killed before the End.

    The “Rapture” is not a “get out of torture, death and suffering for free” card. Most likely, that “harpazo” will happen way after the full manifestation of the Great Evil to overwhelm this world, and perhaps even before the Battle of Armaggedon.

    “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    The key here is that those Christians alive by that time will know for sure when the shechinah has finally departed – when they finally see, with their very own eyes, the “Man of Sin”, that spawn of Satan, doing all those things at the Temple. Not before. If we are alive then to see those things happening, especially those Christians (and Jews) living in Israel, remember Jesus’ advice in Matthew 24: in 21st Century English, “the moment you see that, as predicted by Daniel, get out of Dodge!”

    Will we be spared from the Day of God’s Wrath? Yes. Just as embassies close and their workers and representatives leave a hostile host country before a war or the fall of a country. (Just think of the footage of the helicopters leaving the American Embassy before the Fall of Saigon.)

    So, Camping was wrong. All wrong. All those who have predicted the Rapture or the End of the World in the last 200 years have committed blunders that have cost people’s money, property, friendships, sanity and even some lives. Remember William Miller and the Adventists of the 1840s. Also, how many times did the Jehovah’s Witnesses predict the end of the world, even using the “this generation shall not go away until all of these things have taken place” to interpret it as “The End Will Come as the people born close to 1914 finally leave this Earth”? (My grandmother was born 21 months before the start of WWI. She’s still kicking at 98.) In the end, even the JWs threw in their towels about a decade ago and finally agreed with Jesus:

    “No one knoweth the day nor the hour.”

    [Woman, I'm sorry! I wanted to give them the quotes from Josephus and how it relates to Ezekiel and Paul, and how by this we know the End has not come just yet.]
15. Chuck Pelto says:
    May 22, 2011 at 9:46 pm

    TO: Newton
    RE: Yeah…

    …but where are the ‘locust’ in Josephus’ account? Let the ‘star’ Wormwood?

    Regards,

    Chuck(le)
    P.S. As for the proverbial ‘last battle’ at Megiddo….

    ….it hasn’t happened.

    Nor has the fulfillment of Christ’s comment about how ‘no stone’ at the Temple site ‘will stand upon another’. The West Wall STILL has three tiers of stone standing. And I’m confident that when the Muslims fulfill their part of prophecy, i.e., overrunning Israel, they’ll be certain to FINALLY fulfill that particular prophecy.
16. Chuck Pelto says:
    May 22, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    P.P.S. Yes. There’ve been ‘false prophets’ amongst us all this time. The Old Part of that Old Book mentions them rather effectively for their ineffectiveness.

    However, the stand-out events of Wormwood and the really weird ‘locust’ still are not mentioned anywhere heretofore…..
17. Elaine S. says:
    May 23, 2011 at 11:53 am

    Well, Saturday may not have been the end of the world for everyone, but Sunday was certainly the end of the world for dozens of people in Joplin, MO, and for the community which was hit by a massive tornado (as bad or worse than those which struck Alabama and Miss. just a few weeks ago). And it was certainly the end of the world for those killed by tornadoes in Minnesota and elsewhere. And it was the end of the world for everyone who died in car accidents, fires, or of natural causes that day. And it might be the “end of the world” for thousands of people in Louisiana whose homes and livelihoods are being swept away by the raging Mississippi floods. And the list goes on.

    Having experienced a tornado strike on the community I grew up in a few years ago, I think it’s fair to say that EVERY significant disaster is a mini-Apocalypse, and the “end of the world as we knew it” before the disaster.
18. Rapture Performance Art says:
    May 23, 2011 at 7:30 pm

    I heard a rascal say some friends of his were going to get a hundred pairs of shoes and leave them all over Oakland, CA with dry ice smoking away in each pair.
19. Chuck Pelto says:
    May 23, 2011 at 11:29 pm

    TO: Rapture Performance Art
    RE: Heh

    Cute. Better buy some clothes to go along with the shoes….

    Regards,

    Chuck(le)
    P.S. A few crashed cars would help….
20. 807605 says:
    May 25, 2011 at 5:17 am

    807605 beers on the wall.