10 Anti-Gay Things You Can’t Do While Following Jesus

As I say in all of my “10 Things You Can’t Do While Following Jesus” articles, this is by no means meant to be a complete list, but it’s a decent place to start. Also, this is not to say that people are unable to do these things when they are following Jesus, as much as it is saying if you are doing these things, you are doing something counter to the teachings of Jesus.

 

1) Condone violence toward people who are LGBT.

Here’s the thing: that sentence should have stopped after the word “people”.

LGBT, white, black, sinner, saint, scoundrel, savior – you are not loving your neighbor or those you think of as “enemy” when you support violence against them. Jesus said to love neighbor and enemy. (Please note: No ifs, ands, or buts in there).

Love. Period.

 

2) Be against same-sex marriage.

“Biblical marriage” is one of the biggest Christian misrepresentations out there. Yes, in the Bible marriage is between one man and one woman. It is also between one man, one woman and their God-appointed surrogate mother. Not only that, God frequently blessed polygamists like Gideon and Solomon. Jesus himself believed that if a woman’s husband dies and she doesn’t have a son, she must marry his brother and have intercourse with him until she has a son.

I guess I’m a bit of a prude. “Biblical marriage”? You can have it.

Two loving adults wanting to have a committed relationship?

Yes, please.

 

3) Discriminate against LGBT folk.

Recently, a group of Christians asked President Obama for special permission to discriminate against a particular segment of the population.

Worse yet, they want to do it while receiving government funds.

Did you follow that?

They want to take money that the government made through taxing everyone and then be allowed to exclude some of the very people from which the money came.

Oh, did I mention, this particular group is already a marginalized group in the United States? Yep, Christians wanting to take money from an already marginalized group and use it to further marginalize them.

In an oh-so cliché way, ask yourself: “Who would Jesus discriminate against?”

As you think about the answer, keep in mind that while the Pharisees encouraged discrimination against women, tax collectors, the poor, and even Samaritans, Jesus went out of his way to radically include them all.

Now, “go and do likewise.”

 

4) Say that the Bible/God hates gay people.

You’ve seen the signs, “God hates homos.”

Here’s the thing: the Bible never says that. As a matter of fact, it literally couldn’t.

The modern-day concept of “homosexual” is exactly that: modern day. Our understanding of two people of the same sex in a committed relationship was not something the biblical text ever addressed because it wasn’t a concept they understood or thought about.

Not only that, the very few times the Bible mentions anything even mildly related to same-sex relationships, it doesn’t say what most Christians seem to think it says.

No, really.

You can read all about it here.

 

5) Withhold ordination.

Are you sitting down? Okay, good. I have something to tell you and I need you to be ready for it. Here it goes.

Some Christians are gay.

You okay? Need a minute?

Even if being gay were a sin (it is not, see #4), being a Christian isn’t about being perfect. It’s about loving God and loving others. Some Christians are gay. Some Christians are self-important, some are loud, some are polite, some are even agnostic. They are just people being people — not good or bad.

Being gay has absolutely no impact on your ability to love God and love other people. As a matter of fact, I’d argue that if you are gay and a Christian you have über-skills at loving other people. Think about it. Gay Christians are willing to identify heavily and participate in a group that has historically judged, marginalized and persecuted them.

In my book, these are people who could teach us a crazy amount about forgiveness, love and grace.

 

6) Be quiet when people are marginalized and bullied.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Any questions?

 

7) Believe being gay is a choice.

How is it that in the minds of so many Christians, God made straight people straight but gay people chooseto be gay?

I think Kathy Baldock of Canyonwalker Connections has a very helpful perspective on this. She says that kind of thinking comes from seeing same-sex attraction as a behavior rather than understanding it as a part of who someone is.

The classic question that is sometimes asked is, “When did you choose to be straight?” Sure, it’s a bit myopic in understanding of human sexuality, but the point still stands: Sexuality is much more a part of who you are than it is about a behavior you choose.

Admittedly, this answer is more about being rational than about following the teachings of Jesus, but Proverbs does tell us that Wisdom is the thing in which God delights daily.

So I’m gonna stand pat on this one.

 

8) Believe it’s okay to be gay if you are celibate.

As my friend Matthew Vines points out in his book “God and the Gay Christian,” demanding celibacy is at odds with the biblical perspective that celibacy is a gift, not a mandate. For me, demanding that the only way you can be gay and be Christian is to be celibate is the equivalent of questioning God’s wisdom, and that seems like a less-than-wise thing to do.

 

9) Support gay conversion therapy.

You can “pray the gay away” about as well as I can “pray the grey away.”

Trust me, I’ve tried, and my beard is still grey.

Conversion therapy is based on the precept that being gay is a behavior, not something that we are. (See #8). The negative psychological impact and damage caused by conversion therapy is barbaric, unloving and cruel. (See #1 and #6).

It must stop.

We must speak out every time we see, hear or learn about it. Every time.

 

10) Think that the “gay agenda” is anything other than wanting to be who they are and love who they love.

The most important part to know about gay people is the “people” part of “gay people.”

People are people. We laugh, we cry, we want to be loved and cared for.

That’s the radical gay agenda: to be loved.

It’s mine, too.

I suspect it is yours, as well.


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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Shaun Stikeleather

    This’ll get the trolls stirred up.

    • Troll

      I am here did i miss anything?

  • KBH

    it is wrong when people on the right contort Jesus to agree with all their personal & political views and it is just as wrong when people on the left do it (which is becoming more fashionable to do). Jesus did not come to redefine sin, but to provide redemption for sinners. those most scandalized culturally in the new testament where drawn to Jesus, not to get a stamp of approval on their life decisions,but because they new they needed new life.

    • WilmRoget

      “it is just as wrong when people on the left do it (which is becoming more fashionable to do).”

      Your false accusation is sin, sin you appear to have engaged in to contort Jesus to agree with your personal and political views. Please repent.

  • mespe

    Hi Mark – it’s me again.

    As usual, I find myself agreeing with much of what you say here, and yet disagreeing with some of your key points. But first, I applaud you my Presbyterian Brother, for driving a loving and healthy discussion. It is what sets our denomination apart. And as we go into the coming weeks and months, the world will be watching our discussion on this topic as a result of the recent GA decisions, to see how we handle it. I pray for us all to address each other with love and respect; and to focus on our commonalities, faith in and Love of Christ, rather than our differences.

    Now to business. Yes, I agree that discrimination, bullying, being silent and saying that the Bible hates gays is wrong. Patently, undeniably wrong. Redefining marriage? Meh -> I can’t get there. My Bible points out a man and a woman (regardless of quantity or hand-me-downs) too many places for me to ignore it. I do, however, hold that any life partner, in a homosexual or heterosexual relationship should be afforded equal legal rights – to be named next of kin, to be subject to divorce laws, to be able to be safe from domestic violence, and so forth. I would also acknowledge that many homosexual relationships are more loving and stable than lot’s of heterosexual marriages. But my heart and learnings still say man and a woman, and I feel called to speak up in that regard.

    I also don’t believe that being gay or straight is a choice -> God put all of us here and we are made in his image. But let’s look at this one first as it is pivotal to some other stuff. We are made in God’s image, and our capacity to love should be boundless (not the same as boundary-less). In my walk through life, I have seen enough research and distortion of research, to know that most human behaviors and tendencies are reflected by chemical behavior in the body most specifically the brain. So with the great gifts of life and of love, he also gave us free will. There’s the rub. So it is not necessarily an argument about how he made us, but the decisions we make about how he made us. And, since the time of Adam and Eve, we have ALL made poor (sinful) choices.

    One of the greatest pastors I know is another Presbyterian pastor in the Dallas area, Harry Meissner, once preached on something relevant to the topic. It was immediatly after GA two sessions ago. There was much criticism of the language that was added around ordination, which was focused on sinful lifestyle in general. Harry rightly pointed out that Jesus didn’t focus on “that sin” (if indeed homosexuality is a sin), but on all sin. It is man who tends to focus on sexual sin so much (perhaps those of us who are more restrained feel some sort of envy for the sinner in that area).

    I, as you, am ordained as an Elder in the Presbyterian Church (USA), although I am a “ruling” elder and you are a “teaching elder”, our vows are virtually identical. Now, let’s suppose for a minute that we both decide God made all men pedophiles (as one recent feminist film director purports), and that it was okay for us to maintain sexual relationships with young girls, and that those behaviors were an extension of the “Love” we felt for them. I firmly believe that there is not a congregation out there that would consider us fit for ordination, but I also know that organizations such as NAMBLA would give us a lot of positive support.

    My rather lengthy point is this. God created all of us in his image, but he did make us human and imperfect. We do misbehave – it started with Adam and Eve at the tree, and Satan has been rocking and rolling with us ever since. The difference is what do we CHOOSE to do with what he made us. I have tendencies, that are measurable, that if left unchecked would surely lead me down a path straight to hell. At one point in my life, those tendencies were directing a lot of my behavior. But I realized that was a bad path and chose to change my behavior. With God’s help, I’ve made those changes. I wanted to follow the path He had laid out for me. It’s not easy, the tug to step off into the wilderness is with me all day every day. And sometimes, sadly, I do, but I remain focused on the path. And so it is for all of us for we are all sinners. So to me the choice is do I follow God’s path or do I not. To me, that is the Ordination litmus test. Paul seemed to think so too.

    Now, rightly or wrongly, there are too many places where homosexual behavior is spoken of as wrong in both the Old and New Testaments, for me to ignore it. And I feel as if the gay community is asking the Church to “bless” bad behavior. I don’t find Christ in that resolution. I find him at the well, saying go and sin no more. But we are all sinners in our own way and all need the community of faith to bind our wounds and point us to Christ, and all should be welcomed and loved within that community.
    Mark – I admire you more that I can adequately express. And I pray for Grace, Peace and Love in your life and for all of God’s beautiful children.

    • Mark Sandlin

      I appreciate the constructive feedback. I’m afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree about the biblical take on marriage. I see far too many examples to think it even attempts at defining it. Thank you very much for giving it a read!

      • jd

        Hi Mark, interesting read. I have a family member that is gay, we are a christian family, I love them very much and certainly am very welcoming towards them. I’d give them the shirt off my back. I definitely can agree with some of what you’re saying.

        However, I struggle with accepting homosexuality as a practice blessed by the Bible (which I consider the authority on my christian walk). I hope this is not confused with me not being receptive of homosexuals because that is not the case.

        I was born with the iniquity that inclines me towards the types of sin that occur between a man and a woman. I believe that homosexuality is just another expression of that same iniquity, but between two men. I do not think one is worse than the other, although obviously I’m not drawn to that lifestyle because it doesn’t appeal to me.

        What would is your response to this passage of scripture in particular: Romans 1:26-27 “That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.”

        That appears to be rather straight forward to me, but I’d like to hear your take. I’m always interested in sharing and learning.

        Thank you Mark for this avenue for discussion. I hope you do reply.

        • https://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan Dan Sloan

          It’s not so clear that the acts described were homogenital in the original Greek, actually.

          And you are cutting off the most important part of the passage which describes a people turning from God to idolatry: ” Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore…”

          Obviously Paul is describing pagan idolatry and the resulting sexual lusts (not love) that is a punishment for such idolatry. Paul even takes the time to describe the pagan images. It seems to me to be a condemnation of Roman paganism, which included both same and opposite sex cult prostitution.

          Some scholars believe Paul is describing the practices of the Attis/Cybele cult, which was Rome’s largest religion at the time, while others think that Paul may be replicating a common rant the Jewish Christians said before turning it on its head in Romans 2. (Unfortunately Greek doesn’t use quotation marks to make this clear.) In any case, applying it to gay people who are not practicing idolatry is a stretch given the very tight cause-and-effect made in the passage (using “Therefore… and “Because of this…)

          It isn’t as clear as people think. It’s a very complex passage that doesn’t lend itself to the kind of prooftexting you did here.

          • jd

            So are you saying that there is no evidence to support that this passage is implying anything sexual?

            See my response to mark for my thoughts on the connections between idolatry and sexual sin. They are linked.

          • WilmRoget

            Your dishonesty, Joshua, discredits you entirely.

        • Mark Sandlin

          My point is not so much that it is blessed as much as it is that the Bible has nothing to say about it. Sad differently, the Bible is largely disinterested in the topic but very interested in love and grace.

          • jd

            Mark,

            I have no doubt that the major and ultimate focus in the Bible is love and grace. God is love, and His grace is sufficient. That is fundamental. But, sin is still sin, whether he forgives us for it or not. Otherwise why even worry about it? Why press into being more like Christ if it doesn’t matter or there is no wrong?

            Now I’d like to know how you’ve come to the conclusion that the Bible has nothing to add on the topic of homosexuality.

            Translation of same passage from Greek:

            Likewise moreover also the males having left the natural use of the female were inflamed in the desire of them toward one another males with males the shame working out and the recompense which was fitting of the error of them in themselves receiving.

            Although obviously there is no way for Greek to literally translate into the word homosexuality. I think “inflamed with desire” would be a pretty good indicator of sexual preference.

            Furthermore, I’ve read several essays about this whole passage being written in the context of idolatry and prostitution. I’d like to make three points here:

            1. (prostitution) Who pays money for something they don’t want? If a man is willing to pay to have sex with another man, wouldn’t that classify as “desiring” to lay with another man?

            2. The translation is “inflamed with desire”. Does that sound like something being forced upon them by someone else? I can honestly say that nobody has ever forced me to do something I’ve desired, quite the contrary actually, I have had to force myself not to do things I desire at times.

            3. Idolatry is the act of putting something before God, or putting something in the place where God belongs. Watching hours of TV when you haven’t spent a minute in the Bible could be idolatry. I think I could also make a case that fornication is actually a form of Idolatry. Placing sexual pleasure before God or his statutes would also qualify as idolatry. If I place myself above God, I am an idolater.

            I am not without sin. Lying is a sin. I have lied. God has forgiven me for lying. God does not hate me despite my lying, on the contrary, he loves me. Lying is still a sin. Sin is sin is in, there is not a hierarchy, just love and grace to overcome them all.

            I’m not saying to shove anybody’s sin in their face, but call sin for what it is or it becomes a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

            Eager to hear why you think the Bible is indifferent to the issue.

            (I hope that my interest, questions and opinions are not mistaken for aggression or “bashing”. This is a safe place, we are brothers in Christ and sometimes iron sharpening iron requires a bit of abrasion.)

          • mktxsis

            Worth mentioning is the word SHAME included in the passage. A shame is something that should not be happening (a sin). The shame and the recompense of the same-gender lust (consequence) was specifically mentioned, separately from the sin of idolatry which inspired the sin of homosexual relations. (Notice I didn’t say BEING (or feeling) homosexual was a sin; but having sex with another of the same gender is clearly pointed out as a “shame” with a negative “recompense.”)

          • WilmRoget

            The interesting thing about this argument is that for heterosexuals, homosexual sex does tend to produce feelings of shame.

            But society conveniently ignores that for homosexuals, heterosexual sex produces great and terrible feelings of shame. For homosexuals, heterosexual sex is shameful, unnatural, against nature.

          • WilmRoget

            “Translation of same passage from Greek:”

            Your translation is fraud.
            “the males having left the natural use of the female”

            Physikos does not mean the broad sense of nature, if it did, Paul would be exposed as a fake, because homosexuality is natural, it occurs in nature. Computers, and written language, by the way, are not natural.

            Physikos means innate nature, inborn, instinctive. For heterosexual males, sex with women is natural, it is ‘physikos chresis’ as Paul wrote. For homosexual males, sex with women is unnatural, and requires them to abandon their physikos chresis. For homosexual males, sex with other men is natural, it is ‘physikos chresis’.

            “Although obviously there is no way for Greek to literally translate into the word homosexuality.”

            Greek had seventeen words for various forms of homosexuality. So you admit that you have no real case.

            The problem with your argument about prostitution is that you have dishonestly ignored the temple setting, Paul is writing about temple prostitution. Paul is talking about people having sex with temple priests and priestesses, not to get laid, but to earn the favor of their goddess. The sex is not the reward for payment, it is part of the payment made to the goddess.

            “Idolatry is the act of putting something before God,”

            And that is something that every person who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ is doing. They are putting their sexuality, and their ego, before God.

            “If I place myself above God, I am an idolater.”

            “I am not without sin. Lying is a sin. I have lied. ”

            Therefore, you have absolutely no business ever rebuking homosexuals.

            And because you do place yourself above God on this issue, you are an idolater.

          • mktxsis

            The Bible is also very interested in Christlike love being expressed as obedience. At
            the zenith of His mortal ministry, Jesus said, “Love one another, as I
            have loved you.” To make certain they understood exactly what kind of
            love that was, He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” and
            “whosoever … shall break one of [the] least commandments, and shall
            teach men so, he shall be … the least in the kingdom of heaven.”

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            You are wrong. God’s Word has PLENTY to say about the SIN of homosexuality.

          • WilmRoget

            No, Doug.

          • mespe

            Mark, Thanks for making this point, and thank you for your Grace full approach to this discussion.

        • WilmRoget

          “I was born with the iniquity that inclines me towards the types of sin
          that occur between a man and a woman. I believe that homosexuality is
          just another expression of that same iniquity, but between two men.”

          You have other iniquities to worry about, frankly. First off, the sin of pride, thinking that your capacity for sexual sin means anything about anyone else.

          Second, your argument is irrational. You are concluding that because some expressions of heterosexual sexual intimacy is wrong, all expressions of homosexual intimacy is wrong.

          “What would is your response to this passage of scripture in particular: Romans 1:26-27”

          My first response is that you are a dishonest person who engages in fraud, because you left out the passages that describe idolatry. My next impression is that you are incompetent, for the flaws in the mainstream interpretation of this passage have been rebuked across the internet for years. My next impression is that you do not respect the Bible, for you ignored Paul’s point, which comes at Romans 2:

          You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

          My last impression is that you are insincere, and trying to be clever, to make your malice for homosexuals seem less vile than it is.

          “That appears to be rather straight forward to me,”

          That is an appeal to your pride. But it also reveals considerable incompetence on your part. You see, Paul writes, in the context of idolatry, of people abandoning their innate attraction to the opposite sex. An intelligent person, an honest person, would realize that since homosexuals have no innate attraction to the opposite sex, (and bisexuals have no need to abandon it), Paul cannot be talking about homosexuals.

          “I’m always interested in sharing and learning.”

          And the moon is made of green cheese.

      • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

        God and His Holy Word is very plain on Marriage and on the sin of homosexuality.

        Sticking your head in the sand is not going to make God and His Truth go away.

        • Dalek1963

          Likewise.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            Likewise what?

          • mktxsis

            He agrees with you, Doug.

        • WilmRoget

          “God and His Holy Word is very plain on Marriage and on the sin of homosexuality.”

          When the Bible is translated accurately, read in context, and evaluated with a bare minimum of reason and integrity, it does not condemn homosexuality, nor does it limit marriage to heterosexuals.

      • Michael Viselli

        Can you please cite the “many examples” in the Bible which allow marriage between two people of the same gender?

        I can understand the counterargument, which pokes hole in the “heterosexual marriage” criteria. But that doesn’t give any credence to a pro-homosexual marriage argument.

        • WilmRoget

          Michael, first, can you cite many examples in the Bible which allow computers, the internet, the name “Viselli”?

          You see, by the standard you are using – anything not condoned is condemned, you are damned for posting here, for using cars, for writing in English.

          • Michael Viselli

            You’re right. I am a sinner and sin often. I’m willing to admit that.

            Are you willing to admit that homosexuality is a sin?

          • WilmRoget

            Since homosexuality is not a sin, you are asking me to sin.

            Instead of addressing the issues raised, you tried to get me to sin. Bear in mind, all you’ve done is demonstrate that you have absolutely no business whatsoever criticizing GLBTQ people.

            Please repent. But, don’t get back on the internet, you’ve made that sin for yourself.

          • Michael Viselli

            The funny part is how defensive you’ve gotten on a position that isn’t being attacked. I haven’t once made a single accusation against your position; I’ve merely asked two very neutral questions.

          • WilmRoget

            Your dishonesty is not helping you, and your false accusation is sin.

            You made posting here sin for yourself, why do you continue to sin?

          • Michael Viselli

            You’re just being weird now for the sake of trolling, I’m hoping. The conversation between you and I is done.

            My question for the original author, who actually made some reasonable arguments. I’m interested in his opinion/position. If he’s willing, could he answer my original question?

          • WilmRoget

            “You’re just being weird now for the sake of trolling, I’m hoping. The conversation between you and I is done.”

            Your insult and egotism do not help you. I’m not done at all, I’m just getting started, frankly.

            You raised an issue which you have avoided addressing, and are in fact violating. It shows that your argument is fraud.

          • Michael Viselli

            What argument? I asked a question. There was no argument at all. LOL

            Admittedly, you’re funny. But I really came here for more information, not entertainment. So unless you can answer the question, then please entertain elsewhere.

          • WilmRoget

            You said you were done, and it turns out, you were just grandstanding, your word means nothing.

            Why are you so desperate to drive me away?

            Before one can answer your question, it is necessary, rational, and reasonable, to determine if your question is relevant. Your question is an expression of the fraudulent premise ‘anything that is not affirmed in the Bible is condemned’. I am testing that premise by pointing out things you are doing that are not affirmed in the Bible.

            Your failure to either live up to the standard you are invoking, or defend it, proves that your question is a fraud, a sham, a trite and worthless game.

          • Michael Viselli

            You’re right. I said we’re done, and I should live up to that.

            So I just want to finish with this comment of clarity. The author of this article said that he had too many examples in the Bible which would condone homosexual marriage. I was merely asking him for those references.

            In actuality, I’m very much in favor of legalizing “same-sex marriage” – I’d like to make the church very separate from the legal definition of marriage. Unfortunately, it’s people like you, who immediately pounce upon anybody who innocently asks a question and attacks them viciously until they run away, that are hurting this cause. Next time, try to be cooperative and less vile.

          • WilmRoget

            “and I should live up to that.”

            And yet you have chosen not to.

            “I was merely asking him for those references.”

            And I put your request in context, demonstrating how it was fraudulent.

            ” Unfortunately, it’s people like you,”

            The only people who use that are those who actively oppose civil equality for GLBTQ people. Real allies do not pull that crud.

            This is not a game. Real human beings are raped and murdered as the direct result of ‘homosexuality is sin’. The trivial and superficial way you treat this issue is heartless. Do you get that? People are raped and murdered because of this. It is not a game.

            “Next time, try to be cooperative and less vile.”

            Your ad hominem only reflects poorly on you.

    • http://jaredmithrandirolorin.blogspot.com/ MithrandirOlorin

      It’s also condoned in David and Johnathon and Daniel chapter 1.

      • mktxsis

        Mithrandir please share relevant passages.

    • jd

      I asked mark about this scripture. I thought it might be an interesting point of discussion.

      Romans 1:26-27 “That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.”

      • Byron Minnick

        I feel like this scripture reference is taken out of context. I think it is crucial to understand the times in which this was written. Frankly, the statement really has nothing to do with homosexuality, and everything to do with the behaviors of Romans, predominantly wealthy and affluent Romans. Their views on sexuality were a lot more open than our traditional Christian inspired views on sexuality. Though they had committed, lifelong partners, it was not frowned upon or uncommon for them to be sexually active with other people, even of the same sex. Many took this to such an extreme that it became obsessive. As we know, such irresponsibility with the human body can leave to negative outcomes like the spread of STDs, etc. I think this more so references a damaging behavior.

        But I think it comes down to what the author mentioned before, behavior vs. a part of someone’s being.

        • jd

          That is a fair point. Would you say that American culture is beginning to look more and more like roman culture?

          (corrupt political structures (republican and democrat alike), world super power, watch a commercial or PG13 film and you’ll not that we are quite the sexual society ourselves)

          We revel in people like Wilt Chamberlain and rappers with “hoes in different area codes”. STDs and aids on the rise.

          • WilmRoget

            “That is a fair point.”

            You committed deliberate fraud. At the very least, you should apologize.

            “Would you say that American culture is beginning to look more and more like roman culture?”

            Well, your definition of Roman culture is inaccurate. But it is an interesting question. In Roman culture, people who sought political office made huge donations to the public in the form of buildings and charities, in the U.S., usually it is the opposite.

            “We revel in people like Wilt Chamberlain and rappers with “hoes in different area codes”. STDs and aids on the rise.”

            Interesting use of heterosexual problems. Remember, the proportionate majority of all cases of HIV and other STDs are in heterosexuals.

          • Byron Minnick

            The only thing American culture and Roman culture have in common is the positive and negative attributes of being a Republic. More so the negative.

            I think the similarities you make are over-simplistic. Corruption is a problem all over the world; where ever humans strive for power. The kind of corruption you see in a Republic is just more similar. Politicians are not above using controversial means to sway public opinion in their favor. Distracting people with games or other meaningless things , is another example.

            As far as a “sexual society” goes, I think Roman Culture and American culture differ greatly. This is partly, because of what I mentioned in my previous comment about Roman’s perspective on sex, but also because any sexuality in American society always seems to come from a place of repression. I mean, look at the sheltering rigidness of the 1950s, and the response to that by youth in the 1960s and 70s.

            I’d like to dive more into this, but I must go!

      • WilmRoget

        “Romans 1:26-27”

        Joshua, why did you leave out verses 18-25, with the explicit description of idolatry:

        8 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For
        since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
        power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

        21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

        24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

        After all, the “Because of this” that verse 26 starts with refers back to this material. Were you deliberately trying to deceive people, or just being lazy?

        Paul is describing idolatry, in fact, through archeology, we know of the various fertility religions in Rome during Paul’s life, and can securely say that he was most likely writing about the worship of Cybele/the Great Mother. In that religion, worshipers had sex with priests and priestesses to gain the blessing of the goddess Cybele, and priests self-castrated themselves, and dressed as Cybele, to be like their goddess.

        But I suspect all of that is just too inconvenient for you to include.

        Now, the translation you cited has ‘the natural way to have sex’ and that is a fraudulent translation. First off, there are many natural ways to have sex. Heterosexuality is one, so is homosexuality. Bacteria have sex too, by exchanging genes directly. Many plants have sex with themselves, they self-fertilize to produce seeds. Lots of plants use insects to have sex, some even make their flowers look like insects to lure those insects. Corals have sex by spewing their sperm packets and ova into the sea. Mouth-brooding fishes of the African rift lacks basically have oral sex.

        The majority of life on earth by mass, number of species, and number of individuals, by the way, reproduces asexually. Heterosexual sex is a minor variant.

        So if Paul meant what you think he meant, then he was not speaking on God’s behalf, because God at least knows how diverse sexuality is on Earth. And so far, only God knows how diverse sexuality is off of Earth.

        Paul used the greek words ‘physikos chresis’. Physikos means innate nature, instinctive, inborn. Chresis means ‘the sexual use of ‘. In today’s terms, sexual orientation. And Paul writes of people who are heterosexual, who have a physikos chresis, an innate sexual use of the opposite sex – abandoning that.

        Homosexuals cannot abandon heterosexuality, they don’t have it. Just as humans cannot abandon growing feathers on our bodies, homosexuals cannot abandon being sexually attracted to the opposite gender.

        So Paul cannot, if he is competent and speaking for God, be talking about homosexuals.

    • Dancing Cranberry

      Now, let’s suppose for a minute that we both decide God made all men pedophiles (as one recent feminist film director purports), and that it was okay for us to maintain sexual relationships with young girls, and that those behaviors were an extension of the “Love” we felt for them

      I feel “called upon” to state unequivocally, that I find the comparison of homosexuality with pedophilia to be obnoxious and hateful. For the record, pedophiles are more likely to be heterosexual than they are to be homosexual.

      Here’s my suggestion: Let’s suppose for a minute that gay men and women want to find life partners that will love and support them just as heterosexual men and women do. I prefer that solution and find it is so much more consistent with my understanding of God’s mandate that we love one another and that we refuse to judge each other.

      • mktxsis

        What diff does it make if a pedophile is hetero- or homosexual? For the record? it’s still wrong. Sex outside marriage is wrong, homo- or heterosexual. It’s a sin. And sex with the same gender is clearly “shame”-ful in the Bible wording, in Greek or any other translation. Law of the Land and Law of God are in major conflict; making it legal won’t make it right.

        • Dan Francis

          I don’t see you going out and stoning people to death for all of that. And are you wearing mixed cloth? Do you eat lobster? Your beliefs should never trump human rights. Ever.

          • DavetheInsomniac

            What do you base your “human rights” on? The Constitution? Your feels? What? The definition of “human rights” can vary wildly, and without a justifying point of origin, it can often boil down to little more than your own opinion. Maybe you should clarify your point… or rethink it.

          • Dan Francis

            Speak to me about human rights when you have to fight for them. Straight white able bodied men never had to fight for any rights that women, non-whites, the disabled and GLBTQ people are now getting.

          • DavetheInsomniac

            Your non-answer is answer enough. Thank you for proving my point.

          • WilmRoget

            Your incompetence here is answer enough.

          • Dan Francis

            Proving what point? Dogma and invisible sky daddies are not the source of human morality, let alone human rights. If anything, such concepts are antithesis to human rights and progress.

          • WilmRoget

            Your use of the term ‘sky daddies’ is as degrading as ‘gay lifestyle’ and serves the same purpose -to denigrate other people.

          • Dan Francis

            Don’t cry “persecution” or “hate” when you yourself are not the victim of it. It only gives credence to the term “sky daddies”. And for the record, I use that term when calling out any “religion” for its bullshit. If you cannot differentiate between the little ego in your own head and the idea of what a deity ought to be (Especially one that claims love and peace)….it isn’t my problem. It’s yours.

          • WilmRoget

            As a gay man, Dan, I have certainly experienced persecution and hate, both for being gay, and for being Christian. To date, I have been threatened at gun point, with rocks, a baseball bat, a knife, shot at with a bb gun, egged, and had someone try to run me over in their car, all for simply being a gay man walking down a public street. I’ve been discriminated against in employment, (and had employers stand up for me), called every ugly name homophobes have invented, and deprived of my right to marry my husband.

            In your rush to assume things, you only demonstrated that you are a bigot, prejudging without anywhere near sufficient data. Sadly, I’ve got a load of posts here rebuking anti-gay theology, which you either didn’t read/notice, or just dismissed. Either way, you demonstrated that you are a prejudiced as the homophobes here.

            “And for the record, I use that term when calling out any “religion” for its bullshit.”

            So? Bigots always have an excuse for their vicious and degrading behavior. Homophobes have a similar excuse for using ‘gay lifestyle’. You are operating on their level.

            Guess what that means?

            It means they won.

            “If you cannot differentiate between the little ego in your own head and the idea of what a deity ought to be (Especially one that claims love and peace)….it isn’t my problem. It’s yours.”

            Your abusiveness parallels that of homophobes. Just as they do, you think that your experience, or lack thereof, defines my life. They beat you, Dan. They made you into their image. Oh sure, you target a different group of people, but they don’t care who you target, only that you revile someone to make yourself feel good.

            They beat you.

          • Dan Francis

            Lot of assumptions made, dude. Assumptions are for weak people.
            First: I know persecution well. I’m a Pagan. I’m disabled. Don’t think for a moment that I’m somehow spared the world’s bullshit, because no one is.
            Second: “Abusiveness”? I don’t believe in beating around the bush, pussy-footing around or otherwise white-washing reality. Reality isn’t sunshine and roses, though I often wish it was. I’m not going to soften what I say or think because someone else’s sensibilities are too fragile to handle it. Life makes no exceptions for fragile sensibilities or weak-minded people. Neither do I.
            You lump me in with the primitives, then you demonstrate clearly that you either don’t understand what I say, or dismiss it.
            “Do unto others as others do unto you.” Crowley was right about that, in my opinion. You want to assume, to refuse to get what I mean? Don’t cry when it comes back to you.

          • WilmRoget

            “Lot of assumptions made, dude. Assumptions are for weak people.”

            And all of the assumptions were on your side.

            “First: I know persecution well”

            Yet your had the arrogance to assume that I had none, while I have not questioned yours.

            “I don’t believe in beating around the bush, pussy-footing around or otherwise white-washing reality.”

            Apparently though, you do believe that not only are you entitled to be rude and abusive, you believe that your limited set of experiences defines reality. How amazing.

            “You lump me in with the primitives,”

            Nice fantasy. Homophobes frequently rely on distortion, too.

            “Crowley was right about that, in my opinion.”

            Aliester did not invent that you know.

            “You want to assume,”

            Your confession doesn’t help you.

          • Dan Francis

            Ah, I see now. You are a troll. I don’t deal with trolls. Good day, Sir Troll.

          • WilmRoget

            I see, you cannot refute what I presented.

          • Dan Francis

            You simply refuse to examine the evidence.

          • WilmRoget

            Nice lie Dan. Homophobes do that too, you know, lie to GLBTQ people about what we do, think, feel, experience.

            The irony in your posts is extraordinary. It irony were like ‘the force’, able to move things –

            your posts could lift an x-wing starfighter out of the swamps of Dagobah from the plains of Tatooine.

          • Dan Francis

            I didn’t lie about a thing Dearie. Now please, go troll somewhere else with your childish assumptions and inability to understand what I say, let alone what I mean. Oh, and by the way? I’m not straight either.

          • WilmRoget

            “I didn’t lie about a thing Dearie.”

            Of course you did. You cannot know what I refuse to do, but you falsely made such a claim, knowing you could not actually know. As for your advice – you really ought to live it before you give it away, because frankly, all of your accusations about me are actually confessions about yourself.

          • Liralen

            The Greatest Commandment, from Mathew 22

            34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

            37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

            Repeated again in Luke 10. And again In Matthew 7, aka The Golden Rule

            12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

            Although truthfully, I learned this from the non-Christian environment I was raised in. After becoming Christian, I had my doubts – I felt that I was having to hang my morals at the door with respect to doing harm to other people. There is no way I’ll ever be induced to harm someone who has harmed no one. But the requirement to harm other people was based upon what I learned from other Christians.

            I was greatly relieved that there was no support for that in the Bible. Although no fan of Augustine (“test everything..”), he was supremely right in this particular hermeneutic: “Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbor, does not yet understand them as he ought.” (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, 1.36.40)

          • Rick

            Christ said those WITHOUT sin cast the first stone… so no i am not out stoning folks to death.
            However, nor am i eating swines flesh, lobster, or other of earths garbage cans. As far as mixed clothing, cant say if i do or dont. Based on my study of that subject, its the mixing of plant fibers, with that of animal fibers or so i think, i am not 100% on this one. But i can say most of my clothing if not all of it, are one or the other and not mixed, as far as i know. i know both the shirt i have on now and the sweat pants say 100% cotton.

          • Dan Francis

            I said that because if you want to quote Old Testament barbarity….be prepared to quote it all. If one verse applies, then it ALL applies.

            Or is this book not supposed to be the supposed “perfect, unchanging word”?

          • WilmRoget

            In other words, Rick, you pick and choose.

            But the reality, Rick, is that by invoking Leviticus 20:13 to condemn homosexuals, you are stoning people in your thoughts and heart, and that is sin as much as if you did it in the flesh.

            The reality is that you and your peers, by using Leviticus to condemn homosexuality, commit seven hundred million counts of murder in your hearts, every time.

            And murder is a sin.

        • WilmRoget

          “Sex outside marriage is wrong, homo- or heterosexual. It’s a sin.”

          Nice fantasy. But let’s address the inherent injustice here. You and your peers make it illegal for homosexuals to marry, then demand that they be celibate.

          You are a lawbreaker, you show favoritism toward heterosexuals and against homosexuals.

          “And sex with the same gender is clearly “shame”-ful in the Bible wording, in Greek or any other translation.”

          Not at all.

        • Dancing Cranberry

          It makes no difference. Pedophiles destroy lives. What matters is this promotion of a link between pedophilia and homosexuality.

      • Liralen

        My thoughts exactly. It’s appalling that a Christian minister sees no difference between rape, which is what pedophilia is, and a loving relationship between consenting adults. Especially in view of the recent controversy over a Christian website publishing a pedophile’s rape apologia: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2014/06/14/they-took-down-that-post/

        • DavetheInsomniac

          Define what “consenting adults” is. Mary was 14, after all, and Joseph was probably not.

          • Liralen

            That doesn’t make it right, and actually goes to prove that our sense of what is moral has changed over time. Regardless, it is against the law now.

          • DavetheInsomniac

            You’re proving my point. You claim that it “isn’t right,” but by what STANDARD do you say that? I say that engaging in homosexual acts isn’t right, and if you ask me by what standard I use, I will say: “God’s standard.” What is your measuring rod/standard/guideline for what “right and wrong” is? If you say “God,” then you’re incorrect, as obviously the marriage of Mary and Joseph wasn’t “wrong” by God’s standards. What is your standard? How do you define “consenting adults”? You use common vernacular, but the meaning behind them is empty. You merely accept societal values and put a Christian spin on them.

          • WilmRoget

            Actually, you are demonstrating a lack of moral sense on your part.

          • Dancing Cranberry

            You say “God’s standard”, do you? No qualifier of “my understanding of God’s standard”? A little arrogant, perhaps?

          • Eva Limoges

            Back then people did not live as long and generally marriages were not so much planned but the woman had little say so. Women were property either owned by Thier father or their husbands. The big thing then was to just make babies and keep the blood line going. Now, people live much longer and we don’t need to worry about giving our daughters away as soon as they start their periods so that hopefully they can have lots of babies so that maybe one or two can not be killed by disease. We also know much more about how children’s brains develop. We know that the prefrontal cortex which gives people their ability to weigh the consequences of our actions until late teens and early twenties. 14 is still a child! Almost like a baby! I can see how that was okay then. Also back then women were given to older men because men had the opportunity to have a job and house and such before marriage whereas a woman could not. So most men that married had a start before deciding to make a deal with a girls father. Now, women are not things, they are people that are just as capable as men. I would say it is wrong that she was Wed at 14 because her husband was able to mature before having a wife. He got to grow up first but she didn’t. She was still robbed of social equality but that is how society was then. Also to answer your question of what isn’t right and what standards I use; If I don’t want to be treated like that, then it’s wrong. I wouldn’t want to be property, I wouldnt want to be told as someone that has matured enough to be capable of owning property, have a job to b sustain myself, and be able to weigh the consequences of my actions (3 things that i think make you an adult and I admit that some people are ibn their 40s and are still children but now the government has put an age on that as 18) that i couldn’t love someone and have the same rights as another couple.

          • WilmRoget

            On what evidence do you accuse Joseph of having sex with Mary before she came of age?

          • Dancing Cranberry

            Is there someone in your circle of people you love who is a 14-year old girl? Are you willing to grant her adulthood status with respect to sexual behaviour?

        • WilmRoget

          It shows that Mespe has no real moral sense.

      • mespe

        Hi Cranberry, No where in my comments do I equate pedophilia with homosexuality. I am talking about the way people are “wired”, free will and accountability for behaviors. BTW, I like your moniker, it reminds me of one of my favorite songs , “I hope you dance”. As it turns out, I actually have some past professional experience dealing with a population who were pedophiles. I am acutely aware that they tend to be heterosexual, middle aged, white males (at least 15 years ago when I was engaged in the research my firm was doing). There is no intent in anything that I say to be “hateful” or “obnoxious”. That is what is frustrating for some of us who are on the slightly more conservative side of the progressive movement – many take the path that you appear to be of equating honest disagreement with hate. I mean no disrespect to you sir, but if you are doing that – then you are being just as close minded as you seem to feel that I am.
        By the way – to Liralen below – a ruling elder is not a minister, that is a teaching elder such as Mark Sandlin. A ruling elder’s role is to serve in a leadership capacity in the governance of the local congregation. (Not exactly accurate, but a fair generalization) Like the member of a “Church Board” in other denominations.
        So I want to underscore something here. Even if I don’t agree with Pastor Sandlin’s perspective in full, I still have deep and sincere respect for him. All of us who have Christ in common are searching for understanding …. of His love for us …. of our accountability to love others …. and for living heaven on earth. My difference in perspective does not mean that I in any way feel those who disagree with me “are not Christian”. In fact that boundary which Pastor Sandlin defines is a little bit troubling, because even if the things he cites are “sinful”, aren’t all of us who profess the love of Christ sinners.
        In spite of what you may think, I do not differ with your citation of God’s mandate. However, my friend in faith, we are cautioned by Paul to be discerning. Whether you believe me or not, that is what is in my heart here. Not hatred.
        So I wish you grace and peace and love you for your faith and courage to speak your mind. I do not doubt you seek Christ any less than I do, and I hope we all have the opportunity to meet someday in His presence, for we are all truly his beloved children.

        • WilmRoget

          ” No where in my comments do I equate pedophilia with homosexuality.”

          Of course you do. You make the following statement:

          “Now, let’s suppose for a minute that we both decide God made all men pedophiles”

          Using the example of pedophilia make a negative conclusion about homosexuality.

          “As it turns out, I actually have some past professional experience”

          So you have no excuse, your false comparison did not arise of out ignorance, or even careless parroting of standard anti-gay rhetoric. You looked for something to compare to homosexuality to dismiss the ‘nature’ argument, and instead of choosing heterosexuality, the natural equivalent of homosexuality, or some genuinely innate trait like skin color or hair color or eye color, you smeared GLBTQ people by linking us to pedophiles.

          “any take the path that you appear to be of equating honest disagreement with hate. ”

          There is no honest disagreement involved here. You chose, of all things, to deliberately equate homosexuality with pedophilia. That was deliberately vicious and degrading.

          ” I still have deep and sincere respect for him.”

          But you clearly have no respect for GLBTQ people. You equated our innate capacity for love and intimacy with someone raping children.

          “However, my friend in faith, we are cautioned by Paul to be discerning. Whether you believe me or not, that is what is in my heart here. Not hatred. ”

          I am discerning that you are not telling the truth, and that you do not want to be held accountable for slandering hundreds of millions of people. I am discerning a lack of good judgement and moral sense of your part, a lack of discernment, and a real contempt for GLBTQ people.

          • mespe

            Hi Wilm – My intent was not to offend you sir. And I am knowledgeable in the field. If you were, you would know that the “traits” of pedophilia are innate traits. In all of your “discernment” you have missed me totally. I am not going to “trade shots” with you. It is pointless. I am deeply sad for the hatred that has been pointed your way, since you have noted you were homosexual. I truly applaud your openness. If you saw me in my day to day life, you would truly understand the lack of contempt that I have for GLBTQ people – children of God – like all of us. If you truly believed that this is “all about Love” as Pastor Mark talks about, you might consider dialing back some of your own hatred instead of your own anti-straight rhetoric. You see, to me rhetoric from either perspective is useless. My concern is that there is no room in either your dialogue, or that of the truly conservatives for open discussion on differences of opinion and perspective without vitriol and bile. If I have to agree 100% with you to be an acceptable progressive – then maybe progressivism doesn’t really walk the talk. I can’t speak for Pastor Mark, but one of the things I admire about him is his ability to foster open discussion. So if you want to win a debate – fine – you win. If you want to win hearts and minds though, you need to try a different approach. Maybe I do to. It will certainly be another topic for my ongoing dialogue with God about his word and what he calls me to be. Bless you sir, truly.

          • WilmRoget

            ” My intent was not to offend you sir.”

            Who did you intend to offend? Bear in mind, your intentions are irrelevant, the fact is that you deliberately chose to make a degrading and offensive comparison of my intimate, unitive, consensual relationship to someone raping children. You did to make a very, very weak argument, and the net result, mespe, is that you demonstrated not only contempt for GLBTQ and hate, you demonstrated that the foundations of morality – harm and consent are either irrelevant to you, or that you do not understand them, or both.

            ” And I am knowledgeable in the field.”

            Well, you say you are, but there is no reason to believe you.

            ” you would know that the “traits” of pedophilia are innate traits.”

            Actually, some pedophilia is linked to having been molested as a child. There is an element of a self perpetuating, learned wrong, to pedophilia.

            However, you attempt to excuse your behavior doesn’t help you. Remember, heterosexuality is an innate trait. So is skin color, and eye color and handedness, and gender itself. Any argument you think you can make against homosexuality, by invoking pedophilia, applies as readily to heterosexuality and heterosexuals such as yourself.

            ” I am not going to “trade shots” with you. It is pointless.”

            So you only want to talk about homosexuals, and make ugly and hate pronouncements about us, but to you, it is pointless to talk to us. How arrogant and sinful.

            ” I am deeply sad for the hatred that has been pointed your way,”

            There is no reason to believe you, frankly. After all, you foster that hatred, you demonstrate that hatred, you acted out that hatred by equating my loving and unitive relationship with someone raping children.

            “If you saw me in my day to day life, you would truly understand the lack of contempt that I have for GLBTQ people”

            Again, there is no reason to believe you. And frankly, your decision to excuse your slander of us here, to trivialize and dismiss what you did, as well as the slander itself, demonstrates so much contempt that your claim cannot be true.

            One thing you and your peers need to learn is that when you lie or make false claims to GLBTQ people about things we know and experience, it destroys your credibility in all things. You’ve done that here. Your peers have done in across society.

            “My concern is that there is no room in either your dialogue,”

            Why should there be room for you to equate our relationships with raping children? Why should there be room for people to proclaim that we are to be put to death? You seek room of sin and slander, you seek room for calls for death, torture and violence.

            A moral person would understand that there is no room for such behavior, it is intrinsically evil. But you want room to revile us, room to persecute and slander us.

            “you might consider dialing back some of your own hatred instead of your own anti-straight rhetoric.”

            Your false accusation against me is sin. I articulated neither hatred nor anti-straight rhetoric. Remember, every lie you tell destroys your credibility. You equating my relationship with raping children, I did not do so regarding yours. Please repent.

            “If I have to agree 100% with you to be an acceptable progressive”

            Your false scenario is sin. Again, you want room to sin against GLBTQ people, room to promote violence against us, room to slander us.

            Jesus doesn’t give you that room. It is not about agreeing with me. Jesus said ‘love your neighbor as yourself’, and that only gives you room to revile people if you are willing to be reviled. Yet clearly, you are offended at accurate rebuke, so your response to actually being reviled, and you have not been, would certainly be extreme.

            Jesus did not give you room to persecute homosexuals.

            ” If you want to win hearts and minds though, you need to try a different approach.”

            Such advice, coming from you, after you have equated my loving and unitive relationship to raping children, is worthless. And ignorant, for I have been winning hearts and minds for two decades.

            Really, your argument is selfish and self-centered. You demand room to revile homosexuals, to slander us, to equate our loving relationships with raping children, but you wheedle and whinge, wanting to be coddled and cossetted, handled with kid gloves, pampered and catered to.

            ” Bless you sir, truly.”

            Please stop telling lies. Your fake nice-nice game is not convincing, it cannot ever be as long as you are unrepentant of your slanders of GLBTQ people.

        • Dancing Cranberry

          I think, mespe, that if you look at how you introduced the example of pedophilia to illustrate why homosexuality is wrong, you will see that you did equate the two. Whether that was consciously done or not, I cannot say. That is not for me to decide. I needed to point it out and have done so.

          You wondered about my orientation. For the record, I am a heterosexual woman, married for 35+ years and raised in a conservative Christian church.

          I heard many sermons and comments over the years that had an underlying “us and them” message to them. It hurt me that my faith, which was based on Jesus’s teachings, subtly but consistently taught discrimination against certain groups of people. I doubt that any of the people involved believed that they were promoting hatred. They would all of insisted that their statements were based on the scriptures and love for their fellow human beings. Was it misinterpretation on my part or were they promoting a message of which they were unaware?

          I come from a large family. I am fairly certain that several family members/relatives are gay but dare not ‘come out’ for fear of how they will be treated by the mostly conservative Christian family members. I find that sad.

        • WilmRoget

          “As it turns out, I actually have some past professional experience
          dealing with a population who were pedophiles. I am acutely aware that
          they tend to be heterosexual, middle aged, white males”

          You should also be acutely aware that pedophiles tend not to choose their victims based on gender, but on vulnerability, and commonly abuse children of both genders.

          And that for the small subset of pedophiles who specifically target boys, they are interested in boys who are the most feminine, and that for these pedophiles, they are acting on a displaced hetero-erotic desire.

          But of course, none of that serves your purpose of smearing GLBTQ people by equating our loving relationships with rape.

      • mespe

        Hi Cranberry – you raise a reasonable point. For the record, I agree that most pedophiles are heterosexual, in fact the research that my firm was involved in a number of years ago would seem to indicate that they are white, middle aged, heterosexual males – often married. So if a different example is more to your liking, then fine. My point is that my understanding of God’s word is that regardless of how any of us is “wired”, it is our free will with regard to what we do with it and how we react to His definitions of right and wrong. You and I can disagree about behavioral specifics all day long, but the fact is that we are all sinners, and it is only through God’s grace that we have any salvation. I happen to disagree with you about God’s word in what is acceptable. That doesn’t mean I am “hating” you any more than I would “hate” a Catholic who holds a different faith perspective than I do. My Catholic friends worry over and pray for me because they believe I am not truly confessing my sins through the corporate and private prayer as practiced by the Presbyterian faith. Their prayers for me are truly because they care. I pray for my friends who have a different faith perspective than I do, because I truly care for and love them. I do not know your orientation, nor do I care to. My issue is how do we disagree, in faith, without demonizing each other? I cannot fully understand the life of a homosexual, nor can they, perhaps, fully understand mine. I do know that God calls us to love and respect each other, but I do believe that is intended to be within the direction he has provided us through his Word and the loving example of Christ. Yes, Christ opened his heart to everyone. But he also said, go and sin no more. You and I disagree on what is included in that term. Disagreement in and of itself is not hate, or evil. It is when we let it become polarizing that it is a problem. In my own clumsy way, I’ve been trying to address that point. So as I said in another one of my replies, I do truly hope we will all see each other in Christ’s presence and that all of this earthly foolishness will be made clear.

    • WilmRoget

      “Redefining marriage? Meh -> I can’t get there. My Bible points out a
      man and a woman (regardless of quantity or hand-me-downs) too many
      places for me to ignore it.”

      That is a very poor argument, and frankly, one based on pride. After all, the Bible consistently uses the example of heterosexuals sinning, in all kinds of ways, so by your standard, heterosexuality must be forbidden.

      So let’s tackle the real idea – that God would allow heterosexuals to marry, and disallow homosexuals to marry.

      First, there is no explicit statement to that effect.

      Second, the Bible tells us repeatedly that God is perfectly just, that God does not show favoritism, and that those who do show favoritism are lawbreakers:

      8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2

      Acts 10:34

      Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

      Romans 2:11

      For God does not show favoritism.

      To only allow heterosexuals to have the many benefits of marriage, which include reduced risk of depression, some cancers, heart disease, while barring homosexuals from marriage, is favoritism. Everyone who proclaims that only heterosexuals are allowed by God to marry, is not only showing favoritism, they are accusing God of being unjust, imperfect, not God.

      ” Yes, I agree that discrimination, bullying, being silent and saying that the Bible hates gays is wrong. ”

      And yet, you’ve just argued in favor of discriminating against gays and lesbians, and honestly, the whole purpose of denying us marriage is to bully us into living as if we were heterosexual.

      “But my heart and learnings still say man and a woman, and I feel called to speak up in that regard.”

      So your pride then justifies your favoritism against homosexuals. You know, Proverbs 6 states that one of the things God hates is ‘a heart that devises wicked schemes’ and creating an excuse to discriminate against gays and lesbians is certainly a wicked scheme.

      Luke 6:45

      A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

      You admit that discrimination is wrong, yet promote it.

      “In my walk through life, I have seen ”

      Your appeal to your experience to create dismissal of the experiences of GLBTQ people is the sin of pride. It is also fallacy.

      “I, as you, am ordained as an Elder in the Presbyterian Church (USA),
      although I am a “ruling” elder and you are a “teaching elder”, our vows
      are virtually identical.”

      Again, your argument is a prideful appeal to your personal authority, as a substitute for Scripture.

      “Now, let’s suppose for a minute that we both decide God made all men pedophiles”

      Equating homosexuality with pedophilia is a tremendous evil on your part, arising as it does from your heart. Pedophilia is, among other flaws, a violation of consent, a form of rape, and it is harmful. Homosexuality is neither harmful, nor a violation of consent. You have slandered hundreds of millions of people for no reason other than to revile us by association. That is a vile and evil sin on your part.

      And it shows that you either do not understand harm and consent, which are the foundation of Christian morality, or you dismiss them when they get in your way. Either way, your credibility is destroyed by your own hand. Only truly evil people equate homosexuality with pedophilia.

      Further, researchers have shown that, to the degree that pedophiles identify with any sexual orientation, they predominantly identify as heterosexual. Which means that pedophilia is far more associated with your sexual orientation, than with homosexuality.

      ” it started with Adam and Eve”

      Thank you for acknowledging that it was a male-female couple, presumed heterosexual rather than bi, who released sin into the world. And so we need to acknowledge that the very first curse on humans in the Bible, in Genesis 3, directly targets the fruit of heterosexual intercourse:

      16 To the woman he said,
      “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
      with painful labor you will give birth to children.
      Your desire will be for your husband,
      and he will rule over you.”

      And Adam is punished for listening to his wife. That sure doesn’t make heterosexuality look good, does it? And then in Genesis 6, we have the heterosexual dynamic of ‘Sons of God’ having sex with human women, who then gave birth, and the resulting evil was so great, God destroyed almost all life in the Flood. And then there’s the hundreds of passages that condemn specific acts of heterosexual sex.

      ” The difference is what do we CHOOSE to do with what he made us.”

      Not only do you choose to revile hundreds of millions of people, and to promote discrimination, as a heterosexual, you choose to produce a new generation of sinners, and to subject your wife to God’s first curse on humans: ‘painful labor’. You choose to equate the loving relationships of millions of people, including mine, with someone raping children.

      “Now, rightly or wrongly, there are too many places where homosexual
      behavior is spoken of as wrong in both the Old and New Testaments, for
      me to ignore it.”

      There are none. But frankly, your argument is meaningless, for the Bible condemns false testimony and slander many hundreds of times, and you clearly ignore that. The Bible condemns injustice, and yet you promote it. What you can or cannot ignore is not evidence of anything except your own sinful nature and pride.

      The reality is that the Bible does not ever condemn homosexual behavior for homosexual. It does condemn heterosexuals who abandon their innate sexual orientation. It stands to reason that the same holds true, homosexuals who abandon their innate sexual orientation are also condemned. But here you are, trying to lead us into abandoning our innate capacity for love and intimacy, given us by God, based on and for the sake of your ego and pride.

      ” And I feel as if the gay community is asking the Church to “bless” bad behavior.”

      Again, your feelings are not evidence of anything but the state of your heart, and you revealed that to be very ugly indeed when you equated our loving relationships to raping children.

      “I admire you more that I can adequately express.”

      I think these are the least honest words in your entire post, frankly.

  • http://jaredmithrandirolorin.blogspot.com/ MithrandirOlorin

    I actually think it’s unChristian to “Ordain” people at all. When Jesus’ critics questioned his Authority, he said ‘Form who did John get his Authority to Baptize”. Any Pastor who sees his authority as coming form a denomination, or university diploma, or another Pastor, or anything other then The Holy Spirit, is doing it wrong.

  • Luis Rene Olano Aguilar

    It’s not about being a good Christian or not to understand or accept
    “GAY-ism”… Why do you always take up this this flag?

    You make it sound like it’s Christianity’s fault because they don’t follow, when this society clearly states that you are living in your own free world where “you”
    think “your choice” is all that counts or what’s best for “You” and the lifestyle you’re leading.

    You dangerously imply that Christianity supports violence to and discrimination of, Really? Is Christianity the majority in your world when it comes to decide in your terms “Who someone is?.

    I don’t see the LGBT folks taking it up to other religions, Why is that? Just makes me wonder, you know.

    Then you admit to say that “this answer is more about being rational than about following the teachings of Jesus” then you must clearly know that being a Christian is not just being rational but it also implies Faith and Word. Leave rational to non believers, sir.

    I’m afraid I can’t agree with your biased rage against Christianity nor the bible for that matter, just for sake and benefit of a strong lobby group,

    Homosexuality “a modern day concept or trend” tell that to scholars mister Minister.
    Bless you friend

    • Traca Flannigan

      Most gays go to church because they have been convinced since before they discovered they were gay that they were abominations, and sinners. I mean eating shrimp and working on Sunday is an abomination too and I know many that don’t follow that rule of god. It is outdated to not work on the sabbath like most other things in the bible.

      • Rick

        Sunday is not the Sabbath day. It is the first day of the week, working on it is not an abomination.

    • WilmRoget

      Your first two paragraphs are rather incoherent false witness, and false witness is condemned in the Bible as sin.

      “You dangerously imply that Christianity supports violence to and discrimination of, Really?”

      Actually, what the author communicated is that anti-gay theology produces violence, and therefore, it cannot be Christian.

      “I don’t see the LGBT folks taking it up to other religions, Why is that? Just makes me wonder, you know.”

      You don’t see it because you don’t want to see it, not because it is not happening.
      “Leave rational to non believers, sir.”

      That is a deeply un-Christian bit of advice.

      “I’m afraid I can’t agree with your biased rage against Christianity nor
      the bible for that matter, just for sake and benefit of a strong lobby
      group,”

      Since that fantasy is entirely of your own making, your disbelief in your fantasy is only your business.

  • Rob Pistella

    It’s no wonder you get a wide forum in the world, since the world hates God and the truth…certainly scripture condemns homosexuality, and defines marriage as (best) one man/one woman…yes we see polygamy, etc., but God’s best for us is one man/one woman…even if same sex marriage were biblical, and it’s not, it wouldn’t be ‘best’ for the child. Your comment to ‘agree to disagree’ is weak and certainly doesn’t reflect biblical truth– God abhors homosexuality. As far as being born that way, we are living in a broken, sinful world and we are all born sinners. Homosexuality isn’t any worse than adultery, lust, and a number of other sins… but it is a sin. Mr. Sadlin, “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.”

    • http://jaredmithrandirolorin.blogspot.com/ MithrandirOlorin

      Wrong, that’s not what those Bible verses actually teach. Paul and Leviticus were both in the context of Idolatry.

      • Brent Mann

        Leviticus chapters 17-27 pertained to laws, God’s laws, that apply generally for living a holy life. They were not given in the context of idolatry. These were general instructions to God’s people for living a life that is fully acceptable in the sight of God. You need to accept it for what it is. God never changes. Nor has He ever changed. Jesus did not destroy the Law; He came to fulfill the Law. We need to quit acting like lawyers and looking for loopholes in the Law. We need to seek wisdom through the Holy Spirit and come to a true desire to live lives that are acceptable in the sight of God.

        • https://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan Dan Sloan

          So do you follow all those laws? Do you think doing any work on the Sabbath is a death penalty offense? Do you abstain from forbidden foods or unclean things? Or does the only law that matters is the anti-male-anal sex law? Because if so, nothing you said here has any validity at all. YOU are the one looking for loopholes.

          • mktxsis

            Toujoursdan your answer shows a narrow way of thinking. No one is comparing sins here; we’re only talking about the sinfulness of one particular thing. You wanna talk about all of everyone’s sins? start another thread.

          • WilmRoget

            Since homosexuality, and homosexual sex, are not intrinsically sin, you have no relevant point.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            The laws you speak of are Old Covenant Laws given exclusively by God to the children of Abraham. These were rescinded by the New Covenant established by Christ.

            The laws against sexual immorality of which homosexuality is part of and others like the Ten Commandments are still in effect.

          • WilmRoget

            “The laws against sexual immorality of which homosexuality is part of”

            No. And your word is not enough. Homosexuality is not ‘sexual immorality’.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            It is not my word, it is The Word of God.

          • WilmRoget

            No, it is only your word. You are not God.

        • WilmRoget

          ” They were not given in the context of idolatry.”

          Wrong, Brent.

          ” The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3 You
          must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must
          not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not
          follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.” Leviticus 18.

          Further, by defending the false use of Levitical law to condemn homosexuals, you have bound yourself for judgement under all of it.

          “8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” James 2.

          The sin here is on the part of you and everyone else who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’. All of you are lawbreakers and false teachers.

          • Brent Mann

            When we begin to value anything more than we value God, then we are committing idolatry. Most people erroneously see idolatry as only involving pagan worship. Whenever we desire to continue doing something that is a sin that we know is wrong then we are guilty of committing idolatry. Anything that stands in our way of trying to live a life that is more like that of Christ is idolatry. I admit that I am not perfect. I will always be in the need for correction. It is a nonstop battle against the flesh. I seek the errors in my life and I seek the Lord’s help, through the Holy Spirit, through His Word, through circumstances, through other Christians, and through prayer, in making the necessary corrections. The battle against the flesh does not end with accepting God into your life. The Law defines what is sin and points out the errors that are present in our lives. Since we cannot stand blameless before God, Christ died on the cross to provide a covering for the sins that repent of and try not to repeat. God’s desire is for us to turn away from our sins. He does not want us to embrace them and continue in our errant ways. We all must continue moving toward Spiritual growth. This comes from each one of us following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I do not condemn anyone. I do not have that authority. Only God has that power. However, God does give me a burden to help anyone in anyway that I can. A loving brother or sister will point out if a loved one is heading toward danger. They will do everything he or she can to save them from harm. Is that providing condemnation? I certainly hope not. I would hope that a loving brother or sister would do the same for me.

          • WilmRoget

            “When we begin tovalue anything more than we value God, then we are committing idolatry.”

            So for example, when people begin to worship heterosexuality to the point that they revile hundreds of millions of God’s children, and promote violence and murder, and are oblivious to the violence their belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ causes in the world, they are committing idolatry.

            “Most people erroneously see idolatry as only involving pagan worship.”

            One of the failures of the false interpretation of Romans 1 is that it creates a distraction from Paul’s point – which is to criticize idolatry, and instead focuses on the sexual behavior of some heterosexuals caught in idolatry. This has resulted, sadly, in the idolatry of anti-gay theology, in which people worship their pride in being heterosexual.

            “Whenever we desire to continue doing something that is a sin that we know is wrong then we are guilty of committing idolatry.”

            Thus all who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’ are idolaters.

            “Anything that stands in our way of trying to live a life that is more like that of Christ is idolatry.”

            Thus, all who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’, which causes them to embrace human sacrifice, promote injustice, to persecute and vilify their neighbor instead of loving him or her as themselves, are caught in idolatry.

            Now, I see what you are trying to do. You are trying to accuse GLBTQ people, seven hundred million human beings, of idolatry, because they won’t live their lives to please you. You have no evidence against them, just your ego based opinion about how they should live their lives.

            The idol you should be worried about here is the one in your own life, the one that tells you to revile hundreds of millions of people, to call down on them the death penalty (through your use of Leviticus), so that you can feel that your gift of sexuality is superior, blessed by God.

            Brent, is it cowardice, incivility, arrogance, or incompetence that lead you to completely ignore what I had presented and go off on a self-righteous diversion?

          • Brent Mann

            The only thing in the universe that is worthy of worship is God. One that truly worships Him will strive to turn away from anything that He has defined as sin. Anyone that defends sin and starts falsely accusing others of reviling others and promoting violence and murder is in need of a change of heart. I do not condone hatred in any form. I do not even agree with abortion. Every human life is precious. I do not call the death penalty on anyone. Remember, God loves us all and He desires for us to spend eternity with Him. However, He cannot blindly accept sin that separates us from Him. Please do not get me wrong and believe that I see myself as superior to anyone. Also, I am not self-righteous. No one is self righteous because God is the only one that is righteous.

          • WilmRoget

            “The only thing in the universe that is worthy of worship is God.”

            So you and your peers should stop worshipping heterosexism, or at least, be concerned about the fact that your behavior convinces others that you worship heterosexuality.

            “One that truly worships Him will strive to turn away from anything that He has defined as sin.”

            And since you and your peers are not striving to turn away, apparently, from your sins against GLBTQ people, you must not, by your own argument, truly worship Christ.

            “Anyone that defends sin and starts falsely accusing others of reviling others and promoting violence and murder is in need of a change of heart.”

            So you are in need of a change of heart then, by your own admission.

            After all, my assertion of the explicit, concrete, demonstrable link between ‘homosexuality is sin’ and the violence inflicted on gays and lesbians is not false.

            ” I do not condone hatred in any form.”

            You go beyond condoning, you incite hatred against GLBTQ people. By citing from Leviticus to falsely condemn homosexuals, you asserted that your god wants seven hundred million people to be killed. You absolutely do condone hatred.

            “I do not call the death penalty on anyone.”

            And yet you absolutely did call the death penalty on gays and lesbians. So either you are lying, or you do not see us as ‘anyone’, human. Which is it?

            ” Please do not get me wrong and believe that I see myself as superior to anyone. Also, I am not self-righteous.”

            Your lies are not convincing. You invoke a passage that demands the death penalty to accuse people like me, my partner, many of our friends, and some seven hundred million human beings.

            At the bare minimum, have the decency to acknowledge the consequences of your belief about us.

          • Brent Mann

            You just have not gotten the message that has been sent. No true Christian wants anyone to die. God has told you and everybody else that the penalty for sin is death. I desire for everyone to spend eternity with the Lord. However, the Lord has said that the path to everlasting life is narrow and wide is the path to destruction. As long as you willfully choose to disregard His word, you are following the path to destruction. I pray that your blindness will be remedied by your prayerfully submitting to His direction.

          • WilmRoget

            “You just have not gotten the message that has been sent.”

            Your arrogant dismissal is sin. Please repent.

            “No true Christian wants anyone to die.”

            Then, by your own words, you are not a true Christian, and neither is anyone who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’.

            ” However, the Lord has said that the path to everlasting life is narrow and wide is the path to destruction.”

            Ironically, for 1300 to 1700 years, the wide path has been ‘homosexuality is sin’, and the narrow path has been ‘homosexuality is not sin’. And of course, since there are about 9 times as many heterosexuals as homosexuals, heterosexuality is a ‘wide path’, while homosexuality is a ‘narrow path’.

            ” As long as you willfully choose to disregard His word, you are following the path to destruction.”

            Since I do no such thing, your false accusation is a sin, a willful disregard of the Bible’s commands against such behavior.

            I am disobeying your word, so your threat is clear: if I continue to disobey you, you will destroy me.

            ” I pray that your blindness will be remedied by your prayerfully submitting to His direction.”

            Your derogatory prayer is based on the sin of pride. You don’t want me to submit to God, you threaten me with destruction if I do not submit to you.

            You are not God.

          • Brent Mann

            Again, I am not condemning you. I do not threaten you. If you are feeling threatened, then the source is the Holy Spirit. Again, I am not God. However, God in His word condemns those who practice sexual immorality. Read Jude 1:7: And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment. God’s judgment not mine. You can accept the warning or you can reject it. The choice is yours. I hope you make the right choice and I will see you in Heaven. I know that you will come back and say that I am doomed. But God knows the truth and we all need to find it. Worship as you will. It does not make any difference to me. One day we will all have to stand before God and account for the choices we have made. Godspeed to you and all.

          • WilmRoget

            “Again, I am not condemning you. I do not threaten you.”

            Your lies don’t help you.

            “If you are feeling threatened, then the source is the Holy Spirit.”

            Again, your derogatory lies do not help you.

            ” Again, I am not God.”

            No, you are not. You just play God on the internet.

            “However, God in His word condemns those who practice sexual immorality”

            Since homosexuality is not ‘sexual immorality’, you have no point.

            “Jude 1:7: And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion.”

            And the greek words actually used here, that are rendered ” immorality and every kind of sexual perversion” are ‘heteros sarx’. Heteros. As in heterosexual, heterosexuality. Same flesh, heteros sarx.

            But you ignore that to accuse hundreds of millions of people of sexual immorality, having already claimed that they are to be put to death.

            “Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment. God’s judgment not mine”

            I’d like to know how it is that you know better than God why God destroyed Sodom, because what God told Ezekiel does not match your claim:

            Ezekiel 16

            “49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”

            Haughy, arrogant, unconcerned – why that is you and your peers Brent. And you not only don’t help the oppressed, you actively oppress hundreds of millions of people.

            And ‘detestable things’ – guess what? God is not talking about sex there. God makes it clear, several times earlier, what God is talking about. For example:

            “20 “‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth,”

            Detestable practices – human sacrifice. And low and behold, you promote human sacrifice. When you use Leviticus to falsely denounce homosexuals, with its death sentence, you are saying that your god demands that hundreds of millions are people are to be sacrificed to it as blood offerings.

            You, and your peers, are among the heirs of Sodom today, not homosexuals.

            “You can accept the warning or you can reject it. The choice is yours. I hope you make the right choice and I will see you in Heaven.”

            How arrogant and prideful of you. But see how you reject Jesus Christ, and make salvation contingent not on Christ’s death and resurrection, nor Paul’s ‘justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ’, but on cowering beneath your threats.

            You are not God, but you sure do play God on the internet.

            “Worship as you will. It does not make any difference to me.”

            How graciously condescending, arrogant and prideful of you. You do know that the pride is the root of all sin, in Christian theology, don’t you?

            “Godspeed to you and all.”

            So, another goodbye. I wonder if you have the integrity to live up to it.

            Oh well. Once again, you completely and rudely failed to address any of the points I raised. It really shows how you are not here to communicate, but to parade your ego about, like that pharisee in the temple exalting himself.

          • WilmRoget

            Now Brent,

            I have carefully, thoughtfully, addressed the points you have made in your posts, presented rebukes and challenges to your claims. And each time, you have ignored what I presented, and simply raced off on diversions that primarily were derogatory insinuations, slanders, designed to puff yourself up.

            Basically, throughout your posts here, you’ve been modeling this guy:

            11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.” Luke 18.

            In post after post, you’ve tried to exalt yourself, to present yourself as some righteous authority on high, too exalted to actually address what I have presented to you, lecturing me from atop your high horse.

            It shows me that you are unable to address the challenges to your belief, and, that you don’t care about the flaws in your belief, or the incredible damage it inflicts on others. Why should you care, you are telling me, you are not the one who is raped or murdered.

            It tells me that your participation here is selfish, that this is simply you standing in the temple proclaiming your holiness by tearing other people down.

            But Jesus said “For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” Luke 18:14.

      • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

        That is new age gay theology garbage. It is from Satan, it is 100% unscriptural and believing it will send you to Hell.

        • WilmRoget

          Your dismissal is the sin of pride, slander, and false witness.

    • mktxsis

      In 1994, Sara McLanahan and Gary Sandefur, using evidence from four nationally representative data sets, compared the outcomes of children growing up with both biological parents, with single parents, and with step-parents.6 McLanahan and Sandefur found that children who did not
      live with both biological parents were roughly twice as likely to be poor, to have a birth outside of marriage, to have behavioral and psychological problems, and to not graduate from high school. (Annotated version of the article here: http://www.clasp.org/resources-and-publications/states/0086.pdf)(whole article is also available at clasp.org) and there are many other studies done more recently. Children need male AND female parents, not only to EXIST (obviously) but to grow up with the best environment. Purposely choosing to give them fewer chances, not even TRYING to give them the best start, is selfish. (Ah, another sin…maybe I should start a new thread too!)

      • WilmRoget

        Not a word of that is relevant.

    • WilmRoget

      “certainly scripture condemns homosexuality”

      No, it does not.

      “and defines marriage as (best) one man/one woman”

      No, it does not.

      “God abhors homosexuality.”

      No, you do. You are not God.

      “Homosexuality isn’t any worse than adultery, lust, and a number of other sins…”

      By equating homosexuality with those things, you slander seven hundred million people, condemning yourself. And you demonstrate that you cannot tell the difference between harmless and harmful.

      “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
      light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
      bitter.””

      So you and your peers are calling tremendous woe upon yourselves.

  • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

    THANK YOU — see you in Charlotte this year, dinner , coffee, wine ,walk, talk!!! All?

    • Mark Sandlin

      Sounds like a plan to me? What’s the date?

      • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

        I am in the FINAL week of editing my book and then I switch gears to planes and trips. Pride is August 22 -24, but I will be in NC longer.

        • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

          That will be the pride in Christ Jesus event, will it not?

  • Micah Hurtt

    Being raised in the Baptist culture in the South as a gay teenager was an exceptionally difficult task. One would think that by being in a group of followers of Christ one would feel protected in a safe-heaven so that they can figure out themselves… Yet something about Christianity in the South (generally-speaking) makes (at the time) gay teenagers feel like walking controversies…as if homosexuality was the worst of sins (even though everyone said it was the same). Should we choose our happiness by accepting who we are and being able to love or should we live a life of loneliness and sacrifice our happiness to God? My conclusion: Give it a rest. The only thing I wanted to hear from these Christian leaders was “I love you. God loves you. We will get through this.” But no I, and many others, received demeaning treatment…as if we were 2nd rate Christians who have to work for God’s love. I don’t care about the details of the Bible anymore regarding homosexuality or what people’s stupid opinions are. I just want the love of Christ. And yet, that still seems too demanding of some Christians. As of today, as a 21 year old college student, I still don’t know if it’s wrong or right. All I know is that God is much bigger than all of this, and homosexuality is nothing to his love for me. I will leave this issue to God and I can only pray that the rest of those Anti-gay Christians that I am far too familiar with, can learn to do the same.

    • Brent Mann

      Micah, you are not alone in your struggle against sin. Everyone who is living is fighting this battle. Sin is a bondage that keeps us from seeing the full light of Christ. I pray that the scales on our eyes that blind us all from seeing the true path of righteousness will be removed. God loves us all and we should all love each other. However, God does not love sin and that sin separates us from Him. Sin is defined in God’s Word through His Law. All of us fall short of His righteousness and must seek His correction. Actively seek His correction and find His peace that passes all understanding.

    • Dancing Cranberry

      Micah, the current knowledge we have about how people come to be homosexual or heterosexual suggests that it happens in utero. There are likely more factors, but it is not something that one chooses, as far as I know. It seems to be something one is born with. How ‘Christians’ can call such a characteristic a sin does not fit with my understanding of Christianity – assuming that it is Jesus that Christians follow and taking into account his one single commandment about loving each other as well as the many statements about not judging each other. You are right to say that it is God who will do the judging. None of us, as I understand the scriptures, has the right to judge you.

  • Mark Sandlin

    A BIG shout out to Alissa Quick and Christopher Wickersham (progressivechristianvoice.com) for their support of my writing. I cannot tell you how much it means to me.

  • Brandon

    I disagree with you. The bible mentions multiple times about homosexuality and sexual sins. It is an abomination. God hates sin. He wants his people to turn against sin so he does not have to destroy them. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for these sins. Homosexuality is an abomination!! Do not change the words in the Bible to fit your sinful lifestyle. Read your Bible before you believe sin is acceptable.

    • Mark Sandlin

      I agree, reading and understanding the Bible is an essential part of our faith. That’s why I spent three years in a graduate program at one of the nation’s best Universities. It’s just that important to me. After looking specifically at the very few times the Bible mentions the topic I discovered it doesn’t say what some christians think it says: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thegodarticle/2011/10/clobbering-biblical-gay-bashing/

      • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

        Jude 1:6-8

        New King James Version (NKJV)

        6 And
        the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own
        abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the
        judgment of the great day; 7 as
        Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to
        these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after
        strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of
        eternal fire.

        8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.

        ====================

        Jude 1:17-19

        New King James Version (NKJV)

        17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

        • DavetheInsomniac

          Doug, you are batting 1.000! Keep it up, brother!

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            Thank you but it is Christ Jesus that is at the plate, not me!

          • WilmRoget

            Nice sin of pride for both of your ids.

        • WilmRoget

          Even in the English translation, a rational person would see that ‘gone after strange flesh’ cannot apply to people who are attracted to the ‘same flesh’, their own gender.

    • Jlumpkin

      “This was the GUILT of your sister, SODOM: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.” Ezekiel 16:49

      • DavetheInsomniac

        Right, because of course a book written hundreds of years after the fact that mentions the city in PASSING as an ALLEGORY is somehow supposed to override the actual accounts of the city’s destruction, that were written beforehand.
        Oy vey.

      • Rick

        you forgot the very next verse, maybe because it does not fit your argument? allow me to help you out:
        Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
        Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

        • WilmRoget

          Nice sin Rick.

          But in your rush to slander hundreds of millions of people out of the wickedness of pride, you ignored some passages too:

          20 “‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.

          35 “‘Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the Lord! 36 This is what the Sovereign Lord
          says: Because you poured out your lust and exposed your naked body in
          your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable
          idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood, 37 therefore
          I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure,
          those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against
          you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see you stark naked. 38 I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring on you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger.

          This whole chapter is God describing Jerusalem, using the metaphor of prostitution and adultery to describe idolatry, and accusing the people of Jerusalem of human sacrifice.

          Which, ironically, is what everyone who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ is engaged in as well, since they promote the slaughter of homosexuals to please their god.

      • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

        Jude 1:6-8

        New King James Version (NKJV)

        6 And
        the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own
        abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the
        judgment of the great day; 7 as
        Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to
        these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after
        strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of
        eternal fire.

        8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.

        • WilmRoget

          “and gone after strange flesh,”

          The actually Greek is ‘heteros sark’. Heteros. Heterosexual. Heterosexuality.

          This passage actually refers back to Genesis 6:

          “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

          5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.”

          So this is not about homosexuals at all. Rather it describes a heterosexual dynamic, one that produces children. If it Jude 1:7 condemns any sexual orientation, it condemns heterosexuality.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            No disrespect intended but actually I am not taking your word for this.

            Link your source please.

          • WilmRoget

            Of course disrespect is meant by you. And you expect people to take your word, providing no sources at all.

            I must conclude that you know you cannot refute what I wrote.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            You are acting childish and absurd.

          • WilmRoget

            Nice sin there. But your false accusation does not help you, and it is sin.

            Now, you have a choice. You can either substantiate your own claims with multiple external citations, to meet the standard you imposed on me

            or you can accept for argument’s sake that the material I presented is accurate, and provide a reasoned rebuttal.

            Because I can provide links to back my statement regarding ‘heteros sarx’. But you have to first meet the same burden you seek to place on me, and prove that your interpretation is accurate.

            And I’m confident that you cannot.

            Bear in mind, that I’ve even started in on what God said to Ezekiel regarding the destruction of Sodom. It is not that I’m not interesting in hearing how it is that you know better than God, but I wanted to hear you explain away ‘heteros’, heterosexuals, heterosexuality, in Jude 1:7 first.

    • WilmRoget

      “The bible mentions multiple times about homosexuality and sexual sins. It is an abomination.”

      You are wrong. And you are slandering hundreds of millions of people.

      Now that word “abomination”. No doubt it made you feel very good inside to slander hundreds of millions of people with that ugly word. Doing so let you feel that your sins were insignificant, I’m sure. But you have a huge problem.

      See, in the passages from the Leviticus that you are invoking by using that term, not only is there a demand for death, that means you have committed seven hundred million counts of murder in your thoughts (and that is a lot of sin), the word that is used is “to’ebah”.

      That word appears in Proverbs 6, rendered in the following as ‘detestable’:

      16 There are six things the Lord hates,
      seven that are detestable to him:
      17 haughty eyes,
      a lying tongue,
      hands that shed innocent blood,
      18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
      feet that are quick to rush into evil,
      19 a false witness who pours out lies
      and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

      And there is the ironic tragedy for you and your peers here: all of you are committing to’ebah, detestable things, by proclaiming ‘homosexuality is sin’. While homosexuality is not on this list of the things God hates and detests, you and your peers have committed all seven at least in thought and word, and overall, people who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’ commit all seven in thought, word, and deed.

      “He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for these sins.”

      Not according to God. Ezekiel 16:
      49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

      Now, before you sin and perjure yourself, ‘detestable things’ here does not at all refer to homosexuality or homosexual sex. God is quite clear earlier in the chapter:

      “20 “‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth,”

      and
      “Because you poured out
      your lust and exposed your naked body in your promiscuity with your
      lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave
      them your children’s blood,”

      Detestable things refers to idolatry and human sacrifice to false gods.

      Which is really unfortunate for you and your peers. See, the net effect of preaching ‘homosexuality is sin’ is that gay people get sacrificed, physically, socially, spiritually, to the false god of heterosexism and pride. We are killed, physically all too often, emotionally, spiritually socially, as offerings to your false god of pride.

      In a very real way, those who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’ are engaged in not just idolatry, but human sacrifice, putting the lives of GLBTQ people up as offerings to evil.

      “Homosexuality is an abomination!! Do not change the words in the Bible to fit your sinful lifestyle.”

      You are a slanderer. There is no gay lifestyle, homosexuality is not a sin, and homosexual sex is no more intrinsically sinful than heterosexual sex. Though we should never, ever forget that it was a heterosexual couple who introduced sin into the world in the first place, and that the very first curse on humans in the Bible, in Genesis 3, explicitly targets the fruit of heterosexual sex.

  • Marshal Phillips
  • Dave Peet

    #11 If everything comes from God, being gay would come from God too. For those who say it comes from Satan, Satan comes from God too. Checkmate!!

    • jd

      What about murder? checkmate :)

    • DavetheInsomniac

      Yeah, that’s kind of ridiculous. You just made all the stuff you’re against “from God,” too. So you can’t really complain.
      Wow. Just… wow.

    • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

      Sorry Dave but sin does not come from God.

      You obviously do not know God.

      For the sake of your eternal soul, you need to correct that by reading and studying His Holy Word.

      I suggest you start here.

      biblegateway.com

      • WilmRoget

        “You obviously do not know God.”

        You are bearing false witness, and caught in the sin of pride. Please repent.

        • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

          Reread what I wrote to Dave Peet.

          It applies to you also.

          • WilmRoget

            Your slander of me is sin. Please repent.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            You are mocking God. We are done.

          • WilmRoget

            1) I’m not mocking anyone.
            2) You are not God.
            3) I’m not done.

  • Dalek1963

    On a different note, I too have a graying beard. We could hide the gray under some kind of hair coloring but certainly without the necessity of many gay folks to use a “beard” to hide their true nature to the world.

  • mktxsis

    Excuse me, but #2 is something you can ONLY do while NOT following Jesus…you just said yourself that His commandments about marriage were bunk, and “you can have it.” So you should make this NINE things. Oh, wait. #5? Jesus “ordained” twelve men. TWELVE. MEN. He “withheld ordination” from a LOT of people (EVERYBODY ELSE) as far as I can see. And only HE and THEY had the “ordination” authority. Make it EIGHT things. Oh, wait again. #8. Since when did God OR Jesus say it’s okay to NOT be celibate except with your spouse? HIS “ordained” Apostles continued to teach His gospel after his death; the reason we consider their writings “scripture” is because we believe they heard ALL of his teachings (and the Holy Ghost taught them, as he promised), so suddenly fornication is okay? No. Celibacy is required of all single people, and fidelity of all married people. Jesus said following him would be HARD, and require sacrifice and obedience. So make it SEVEN things. Oh. Wait. Who are you to fly in the face of science and say “being gay” is like “being gray?” Do people slowly become gay as a part of the aging process? Is it merely an outward thing, like freckles? No. It’s part of your mental makeup, just as is being musical, or bipolar, or hyperflexible, or ADHD. Some of these things we can change, augment, or get help for so we can learn to live within society. They all also come with gifts peculiar to each mental “quirk.” (Gay people have some of the most delightful personalities in the world, for example; and bipolars are usually geniuses on some level.)
    But don’t tell me that because someone is born with, say, a very, very active libido, that Jesus would be okay with them sleeping around. There’s a difference between forgiving and condoning. You repent; he forgives.
    Paul mentioned he had a major “thorn” in his side, but he managed to live with it. He didn’t change the Gospel to fit his issue; he taught others to be as strong and self-sacrificing as he was. LOVE EVERYONE. Like Jesus. CONDONE NOT THE LEAST AMOUNT OF SIN. Like Jesus. SIX things. Amend your list.

  • Samantha S.

    dumbest article I’ve ever read.

    • WilmRoget

      Yet your reply says even less. How ironic.

  • JohnRH2522

    I appreciate this article because it is thought-provoking. [EDIT] I also note that there is truth to some of the conclusions listed, if not some faulty premises behind the reasoning, such as Nos. 1, 4, and 6, and thus I also have to assume that the article comes from a place of sincerity. [/EDIT] However, I believe it contains several crucial fallacies, both logical and theological. Notwithstanding, the complaints and concerns are not new or unique. I believe that Ravi Zacharias offers a very relevant, cohesive, and logically sound answer to many of the questions raised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkbtDxM_CwY

    • WilmRoget

      “if not some faulty premises behind the reasoning, such as Nos. 1, 4, and
      6, and thus I also have to assume that the article comes from a place
      of sincerity. [/EDIT] However, I believe it contains several crucial
      fallacies, both logical and theological.”

      Of course, making such claims without evidence is a faulty premise, and could be perceived as invoking a particular fallacy.

      Or just as incompetent.

      • JohnRH2522

        I’m not following the point of your comment, but as an example, the author appears to imply that Christians should not “hate” gays because homosexuality is not a sin (compare #4 and #5). Regardless of your views on what the Bible says about homosexuality, you should not hate anyone, including homosexuals. It is an unnecessary and over broad generalization/straw man/false alternative: “if you believe homosexuality is a sin, you hate homosexuals.” Stated a different way, what if someone asked a Christian: “do you agree homosexuality is not a sin, or do you hate homosexuals?”

        • WilmRoget

          “I’m not following the point of your comment,”

          The point was that you made a load of assertions without a shred of evidence to back them up. I expressed it very plainly.

          “the author appears to imply that Christians should not “hate” gays because homosexuality is not a sin”

          The author is quite clear on that point.

          ” It is an unnecessary and over broad generalization/straw man/false alternative:”

          No, and frankly, I doubt you understand any of those terms.

          “if you believe homosexuality is a sin, you hate homosexuals.”

          If one asserts that homosexuality is sin, they are articulating hate. The term “sin” has a definite meaning in Christianity: ‘worthy of death and damnation’. To say that someone’s innate capacity for love and intimacy is ‘worthy of death and damnation’ is hate.

          Further, anti-gay theology is based on a handful of passages that invoke violence as a response, from the Sodom story – which people use to claim that God destroyed a city of people over homosexuality, to the Leviticus passages with the death penalty, to the comparisons to murder, theft, adultery.

          Further, equating homosexuality with murder and stealing and addiction and adultery is degrading and abusive, it demonstrates hate and malice and intent to harm.

          I recognize that you are trying to create a way for people to revile and slander homosexuals, while pretending that such abuse is not indicative of hate and malice.

          It is too late for that game. Too many GLBTQ people have been murdered or raped, tortured, imprisoned, beaten, stabbed, shot, executed, persecuted and oppressed for that little game to ever work again.

          • JohnRH2522

            There is a lot of animosity and several personal attacks here. My only response is that I think it is disappointing that discussions on this issue turn so quickly to that. If you watched the video clip, I think you would be very hard-pressed to argue that it is hate-filled. I certainly do not hate homosexuals, and many of my homosexual friends are not only my closest friends, but also clearly understand my position on homosexuality because we have discussed it without the type of distractions above. But I leave it to your personal consideration and reflection. 1 Tim. 1:15

          • WilmRoget

            “There is a lot of animosity and several personal attacks here.”

            The premise ‘homosexuality is sin’ is an expression of animosity, and a personal attack on hundreds of millions of people.

            ” My only response is that I think it is disappointing that discussions on this issue turn so quickly to that.”

            Perhaps you should be more concerned about the fact that the premise itself, ‘homosexuality is sin’, is not only an expression of animosity, not only a personal attack on hundreds of millions of people, but the direct and deliberate justification for horrific violence inflicted on gays and lesbians, including murder and rape. Instead of trying to defend the video, you could consider expressing some real concern about the real human beings who are destroyed as the direct expression of ‘homosexuality is sin’.

            ” I certainly do not hate homosexuals”

            Anyone who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ hates homosexuals. Denying that fact accomplishes nothing.

            Your post completely fails to even attempt to address the reality of this issue.

            People are murdered, on purpose, as the direct and intentional expression of ‘homosexuality is sin’.

            Tell me, John, how many homosexuals have to be murdered before you will care?

          • Rick

            Anyone who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ hates homosexuals. Denying that fact accomplishes nothing.

            No they are teaching truth from the Bible. Truth you don’t like, because it points to your sin. Then you try to turn the fact that someone is telling truth, with insults and garbage, and hope they walk away. I almost fell for that. But after seeing your response to everyone here using the same guilt tactics of murder and rape. Cant speak for everyone here, but i didn’t Murder or rape anyone. And i cant help if others did. But i am not going to back down on Biblical truth because of it.

          • WilmRoget

            “No they are teaching truth from the Bible.”

            No, they are not. They are teaching evil.
            “Truth you don’t like, because it points to your sin.”

            Your slander of me is sin. Please repent. Bear in mind, you’ve invoked Leviticus, which demands the death penalty, you have made it clear that you endorse murdering homosexuals.

            ‘Then you try to turn the fact that someone is telling truth, with insults and garbage, and hope they walk away.”

            Your false accusation is sin. I don’t hope you will walk away, I hope you will repent of your sins against homosexuals, and stop putting our lives in danger for the sake of your pride.

            “the same guilt tactics of murder and rape.”

            Your lack of compassion is not very Christian. A real follower of Jesus Christ would be sickened by the very real violence inflicted on GLBTQ people.

            “but i didn’t Murder or rape anyone.”

            Oh, but you most certainly did commit murder in your thoughts, when you claimed that certain Levitical passages were about homosexuals.

            “But i am not going to back down on Biblical truth because of it.”

            No one asking you to back down on Biblical truth, you just are not sharing any on this subject.

            Please repent of your slanders against me.

          • WilmRoget

            Now about your dismissal “the same guilt tactics of murder and rape”

            The fact is, homosexuals of both genders are raped, murdered, executed, imprisoned, bullied, tortured, deprived of basic human rights, persecuted, slandered, as the direct and purposeful expression of ‘homosexuality is sin’.

            Jesus said that whatever we do for those who are oppressed, we do for Him. Whatever we fail to do for those who are oppressed, we fail to do for Him (Matthew 25:31-46).

            So Rick, by trivializing the atrocities that have been inflicted on GLBTQ people (for some 17 centuries), you have persecuted Christ. By failing to care about what is done to us, you have failed to care about Christ.

          • WilmRoget

            As for the video clip – do you have a transcript? To evaluate what he has said, I need to be able to quote him exactly, from a written source you accept as accurate.

            Of course, that is more effort on my part than you have made to address my position.

          • Martin Heward-Mills

            WilmRoget
            i am wary to speak to you because i feel anything i say will be misconstrued (forgive my grammar and spelling in advance). I am not for the hate of anyone. i do not condone any violence physical mental or otherwise against anyone. I have a few points and please if there is anything that is disengenuine i pray God will reveal and correct it. I have many sins in life and ill be honest. The reason i want to ask you a few questions and if you choose not to answer its ok..

            1. What would you class as Sexual Sin ?

            2. Did God define marriage ? i am alluding to Jesus and his referral of Genesis in answering the Pharisees re Divorce

            3. Polygamy is it blessed by God in the bible ever ? i see God blessing a person despite their sin not blessing the sin

            4. Re leviticus there were of course many ceremonial issues that the jews had to adhere to that Christians are not bound by today. With respect to Food Paul qualified that all things from God are to be eaten with thanksgiving. I think there was symbology in the jews being separate from all other Gentiles before Gods awesome plan was revealed in new testament times.

            the reason is because its legal for a Guy and a Girl to have sex after a certain age however God calls this fornication. in some states its permissible to marry an animal but i think again God sees that as wrong. different states have differing rules on ages of consent etc etc.

            i think its hard to come down hard on those of us who view homosexuality as a sin and equate that with the murder and persecution of those who struggle with that challenge (i say that on the basis that i believe it is sin)

            for example Jesus said i am the way the truth and the light no one comes to the father except through me. In that he has been fairly harsh on the million of people who have other religions i.e. Muslims, Jews, Buddha etc etc … i think your argument could apply to these guys but i think following God through Jesus isn’t easy.

            i dont know how you will answer but really look forward to hearing from you.

          • Martin Heward-Mills

            also last point. i think there are major issues with us simply saying the writers of the bible were not aware of homosexuality or consenting loving homosexuality. That would be akin to saying God is ok with Fornication as long as it was love related or ended in marriage which i dont think is sound doctrine.

            God inspired the Bible and if that is true then there is nothing in this day and age that he is surprised by. So when something is called a sin then its difficult to unwind that using the lack of knowledge of writers based on time and context. Murder was known as Murder and wrong before the law was written if we think of Cain and Abel..and Paul attests to the fact that there is far more sin then the law dictates…Jesus proved this with Adultery being in the heart and Murder being born of hate in the heart

          • WilmRoget

            Once again, equating homosexuality with fornication (and the Bible references actually speak of prostitution) and murder indicates a lack of moral sense on your part. It is simply a vicious and cheap tactic, an attempt to smear and slander hundreds of millions of people so you can feel exalted.

            That is the purpose of anti-gay theology – to make heterosexuals feel exalted, holier than homosexuals, superior, special, more loved by God. But Jesus had something to say about that behavior, Martin, as you stand here proclaiming how good you are because you are not a homosexual –

            Luke 18

            9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

            13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I
            tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

            You are trying so hard to malign hundreds of millions of people. Ever ask yourself why? Ever say, Gee Martin, why do you need to slander so many people in public?

          • Martin Heward-Mills

            You have
            written a lot and would love to make sure I answer everything.

            1.
            Prostitution would be a subset of fornication as its sex between two people who
            are not married. With respect to equating Murder and Homosexuality. There is a
            long list of sins from lying to adultery and they are correctly labeled as sin.
            I have to be clear that despite the personal attacks I am unable to label it as
            anything else. That isn’t saying someone with tendencies is classed as a sinner
            as we all have these. To clarify everyone who acts on sexual feelings outside
            of marriage is committing a sin. So no one is better then anyone else just
            dealing with a different set of temptations. No one is exalted and no one is
            without sin… Sexual Sin is something that we all have to deal with in different
            guises

            2. Re
            Jesus word he is the author of the whole of the bible. The difficult and the
            easy parts so I am fully behind and accept his words. However he also speaks of
            people who are wolves amongst sheep and leading his flock astray. There is no
            arrogance in my words. Mark has a position and he stated reasons why he
            believed as such. I have a different position that I strongly feel is backed up
            by the bible. I am not arrogant in saying that sexual sin is sin.

            3. Tell
            me how Christ’s Law stated that Homosexuality is not a sin

            4. I
            think we need to deal with two of your statements

            A. Anyone
            who isn’t a Christian isn’t actually bothered by Homosexuality being labeled a
            sin. They are not bothered about Sex before marriage as a sin. And are not
            bothered about many acts being a sin as they don’t believe in God. Let us make
            that distinction

            B. The
            atrocious acts committed against people who are gay as in Murder, Persecution
            and Hate is not attributable to Gods word about Sin. People are led astray by
            their own selfish desires and commit evil acts. They barely need a reason to do
            so. I am not going to accept that one its an emotive argument.

            5.
            Solomon’s many wives led him astray and lead him to idolatry and foreign Gods.
            God never endorsed anything more then one wife.

            6. I
            think if you want say animals are supposed to follow the commandments given to
            men you are overstepping your mark. Animals commit many acts including
            infanticide however they are not our standard the word of God is. I didn’t say
            Sex was only meant for marriage God did. I also didn’t define Marriage Jesus
            did. That is why you have great difficulty in answering the questions that I
            asked.

            7. To
            clarify when I say it’s a Gospel issue. If you redefine Sin as not sin then you
            are changing the Gospel to suit yourselves. That is the crux of the issue.
            There are many sins and that’s one thing but amending Gods word to suit
            something I believe causes damage to the Gospel. But this was expected.

            8. You
            sidestepped the Adultery example but that is cool

            There was no attempt to
            set traps. I think the issue is the Word of God is easy enough to
            understand. You want to make this an
            emotive slanging match hence every spelling mistake, grammatical error you come
            down hard on and that’s fine. This is escapism.

            The clear thing is God
            defines Marriage in Genesis, Jesus confirmed this in New Testament. Humans
            sinful nature means we have a natural tendency to sexual sin which I will
            define as sexual acts outside marriage…Adultery, Pre-Marital Sex, Homosexuality
            ..etc etc.

            I have read what Mark
            wrote and have looked at this debate. There are no grounds for hate towards any
            group for any reason. That doesn’t mean that a particular group are able to
            redefine the boundaries of what God has ordained and determined.

            If there is anything that
            you put forward that I missed would be happy to answer

          • WilmRoget

            “also last point.”

            So, like your peer, your ‘I’m done’ business was a sham.

            “Prostitution would be a subset of fornication as its sex between two people who are not married.”

            No. You’ve missed it entirely. The greek words in the NT that get rendered ‘fornication’ actually mean prostitution. Remember, English, as a language, is much younger that Koine Greek, or Hebrew, or Latin. The Bible passages you are implying without honestly citing, talk about prostitution.

            “I have to be clear that despite the personal attacks”

            Understand that your entire premise is a personal attack on seven hundred million people, and that you have not been personally attacked, although your very premise is a personal attack on my life, my husband’s life, many of our friends’ lives, and as I said, some seven hundred million people. You are not a victim here.

            ” With respect to equating Murder and Homosexuality. There is a long list of sins from lying to adultery and they are correctly labeled as sin.”

            Essentially, you are saying that you cannot, or choose not to, recognize the difference between things that cause harm and violate consent, like murder, lying, adultery, and things that do not, like homosexuality. But those two distinctions, between consent and coercion, harmless and harmful, are the crucial foundation of morality, including Christian morality. So you are telling everyone that you either do not have a moral sense, or you discard it when it is inconvenient.

            ” Tell me how Christ’s Law stated that Homosexuality is not a sin”

            Christ’s law has two points: love God with your entire self, and love your neighbor as yourself. Homosexuality does not violate either, therefore it is lawful.

            But the violence and brutality with which ‘homosexuality is sin’ is routinely expressed, as well as the verbal abuse you and your peers unleash, violate both clauses of Christ’s law.

            Now, I understand, you are trying to sneakily argue that anything that is not explicitly affirmed by Christ, is condemned. So you can live by that. Tell me how Christ’s law stated that posting on the internet is not a sin, or that being named “Martin Heward-Mills” is not a sin. Or that the suit you are wearing in your photo is not a sin, or that being photographed is not a sin.

            Unless you can do so, Martin, you’ve made all of these things, and many, many more, sin for yourself.

            “Anyone who isn’t a Christian isn’t actually bothered by Homosexuality being labeled a sin.”

            Nice falsehood there. But worse is the sin of pride you’ve demonstrated, acting as if you know the real the actual, feeling of all of humanity. Your claim has no basis in reality, it is a lie that contradicts the public testimony of many millions of people.

          • WilmRoget

            Going on:

            “The atrocious acts committed against people who are gay as in Murder, Persecution and Hate is not attributable to Gods word about Sin.”

            Yes and not. Those acts are the direct fruit of the evil belief ‘homosexuality is sin’, but that belief is not a reflection of God’s word about anything.

            “People are led astray by their own selfish desires and commit evil acts. They barely need a reason to do
            so. I am not going to accept that one its an emotive argument.”

            You’ve just described yourself and all people who teach ‘homosexuality is sin”. Your unwillingness to accept the truth of this matter is horrific. You are being deliberately blind the the physical destruction of real human beings simply because that truth is inconvenient for you. I am hard pressed to imagine a greater intangible evil, frankly.

            Bear in mind, ’emotive arguments’, calls to compassion, empathy, love are the foundation of the rules Christ gave us. Christ commanded his followers “Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

            By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34,35. That is an emotive argument.

            By the way, I notice the sudden improvement in your writing skills – did someone else help you, or were you faking it earlier?

            “Solomon’s many wives led him astray and lead him to idolatry and foreign Gods. God never endorsed anything more then one wife.”

            Solomon is not the only patriarch with multiple wives. I’m not sure how the example of heterosexual marriage leading people into sin helps your argument.

            “I think if you want say animals are supposed to follow the commandments given to men you are overstepping your mark.”

            I made no such claim. When you lie about my own posts, to me, you prove to me that you are not a credible witness about anything, especially the Bible and God.

            “I didn’t say Sex was only meant for marriage God did.”

            Lying about your own posts also destroys your credibility.

            “I also didn’t define Marriage Jesus did.”

            Again, your lies do you no good at all.

            “That is why you have great difficulty in answering the questions that I asked.”

            Your derogatory fantasies and lies about me are sin. Please repent, for your sake. They show me that you have no integrity, and no morals.

          • WilmRoget

            “To clarify when I say it’s a Gospel issue. If you redefine Sin as not sin then you are changing the Gospel to suit yourselves.”

            Since I am not redefining sin, your insinuated accusation is sin. The only people changing the Gospel to suit themselves, are you and your peers. Remember, Martin, the Gospel of Jesus Christ contains no condemnation of homosexuality at all. Christ did not say anything condemning homosexuality. He did teach us that false teachers bear evil fruit, and you, and everyone else who preaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ bear evil fruit.

            You and your peers produce murder and rape. Murder, Martin. Open your heart for one second, and think about that. People are murdered as the deliberate manifestation, to carry out and enforce, the belief you are teaching here.

            “That is the crux of the issue.”

            The crux of the issue is that you teach something that destroys human lives and apparently, you just don’t care. No matter how many lives are destroyed, no matter how many people are raped, tortured, bullied to suicide, driven away from their homes and families to starve on the streets,

            you just don’t care.

            “There are many sins and that’s one thing but amending Gods word to suit something I believe causes damage to the Gospel. ”

            So you and your peers should stop. But you clearly care more about your fantasy of what the Gospel is, a fantasy you’ve created to make yourself feel good, than you care about the people your evil belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ destroys.

            How can you be so utterly heartless? Men and women are raped because of the belief you teach:

            “In one of the few cases to attract press attention, in 2008, Eudy Simelane, a lesbian, was gang-raped and stabbed to death. Her naked body
            was dumped in a stream in the Kwa Thema township outside Johannesburg. A soccer player training to be a referee for the 2010 FIFA World Cup, she was targeted because of her sexual orientation.

            In 2011, Noxolo Nogwaza, 24, was raped, and stabbed multiple times with glass shards. Her skull was shattered. Her eyes were reportedly gouged from their sockets. Ms. Nogwaza had been seen earlier that evening in a bar with a female friend. ”
            http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/26/opinion/26corrective-rape.html

            This is your gospel, ‘homosexuality is sin’ at work in the world.

            “One woman I met, Simphiwe Thandeka, was “correctively” raped three times. A tomboy, she was raped at age 13 by an uncle who didn’t approve of her “boyish” ways. “I didn’t know at the time it was rape, because I was only 13,” she told me. The next morning, she awoke bleeding and in severe pain. She spoke to her mother and grandmother, who insisted it was a family matter and was not to be spoken of again.

            Some years later, Simphiwe’s uncle decided that marriage would “cure” his niece of her sexuality. So he arranged a marriage for her. “He took me to his friend’s house and told me I must have sex with this man,
            because I was going to marry him next month,” she recounted. “I had no idea what was going on.”

            The friend raped Simphiwe multiple times, and beat her with a clothes hanger. “He told me I was going to be his wife and not a lesbian,” she said. The following morning, the friend returned her to her uncle’s house. “He told my uncle he couldn’t marry me because I was still a lesbian, and returned the money my uncle had given him,” she said.

            During a hospital visit, Simphiwe learned that she had contracted H.I.V. from her uncle and had become pregnant by his friend. “My Mum had known my uncle was positive, but she never told me,” she said.”

            This is your belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ at work in the world, Martin.

            So if you are so devoid of compassion that you can ignore that, and still think you are right on this matter

            then you are not and cannot be a credible witness about God, at all, not even slightly.

          • WilmRoget

            “You sidestepped the Adultery example but that is cool”

            Nice lie there, Martin. Bear in mind, you have completely failed to address all of the material I presented honestly. You are a hypocrite, whinging at me with false accusation of ‘sidestepped’ when you have yet to make an honest attempt to address any of the material I present.

            “There was no attempt to set traps.”
            I’m really tired of your deceptions.

            “I think the issue is the Word of God is easy enough to
            understand.”

            That is the sin of pride on your part. It shows great ignorance about the history of Christian theology and thought, by the way.

            “You want to make this an emotive slanging match”

            Your slander is sin, and I bind you to that sin in the name of Jesus Christ for all eternity, until you apologize to me, and repent to God, as publicly as you sinned.

            “hence every spelling mistake, grammatical error you come down hard on and that’s fine.”

            No, I point out the incompetence of your writing skills, and reading skills, because those flaws make it unlikely that you understand the Bible itself. If you cannot use basic capitalization and punctuation skills – how can you possibly know well enough what any written text communicates, enough to justify the hate filled claim you are making about hundreds of millions of people. Your incompetence at written communication means you are not a credible witness about any written text, including the Bible.

            “This is escapism.”

            No. The dictionary defines escapism:

            escapism
            noun
            the avoidance of reality by absorption of the mind in entertainment or in an imaginative situation, activity, etc.

            And none of that is present in my posts. Your accusation is both sinfully false, and uneducated.

          • WilmRoget

            “The clear thing is God defines Marriage in Genesis,”

            No. Now, you’ve demonstrated that you neither write accurately, nor read accurately, but your claim is false.

            “Jesus confirmed this in New Testament.”
            No. At no point in the New Testament does Jesus define marriage, nor does Jesus limit marriage to one man and one woman.

            “Humans sinful nature means we have a natural tendency to sexual sin”

            It means that we have a tendency to many kinds of sin, you’ve demonstrated the sin of pride, malice, dishonesty, favoritism/lawlessness.

            “which I will define”

            Which you will define. How conveniently prideful of you. Instead of going with what Christ defined, or God, you define for everyone else so you can judge them.

            “There are no grounds for hate towards any
            group for any reason.”

            And yet you defined sexual sin as including homosexuality, and that was hate on your part. You slander hundreds of millions of people, that is hate on your part. You lie about our lives, that is hate on your part. You equate our capacity for love and intimacy with murder, that is hate on your part. So you know there are no grounds for your behavior, but you do it anyways.

            You know there are no grounds for it, but you push a belief that produces rape and murder anyways.

            “That doesn’t mean that a particular group are able to
            redefine the boundaries of what God has ordained and determined.”

            So you and your peers, who promote rape and murder by teaching ‘homosexuality is sin’, need to stop immediately, and repent of your sins.

            “If there is anything that you put forward that I missed would be happy to answer”

            Pretty much everything, frankly.

          • Martin Heward-Mills

            i apologise i wanted to share. thanks for time and responses and i do hope that God works in both of us

          • WilmRoget

            You wanted to tear down millions of other people so you could look good by comparison.

            It is not a coincidence that so many people of color, whose ancestors were brutalized under one false theology, turn around and use another false theology to brutalize GLBTQ people.

            Racist theology and pro-slavery theology pushed people of color into the mud, so to speak, shoved them to the bottom of the social hierarchy, trampled their self esteem and worth. So many of them, like you Martin, try to climb out of that pit of being ‘the lowest in society’ by shoving GLBTQ people down into the muck.

            So just ponder this: slavery ended in the U.S. because people decided to care about the brutality inflicted on people of color, systemic racism ended because people decided to care about the brutality inflicted on people of color, the remaining casual racism is ending for the same reason.

            Emotive arguments persuaded people that slavery and racism were evil.

            But you dismiss emotive arguments, you dismissed compassion and mercy and empathy and grace and love, when you were called to show those gifts of the Holy Spirit to GLBTQ people. Matthew 18

            “23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[b] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

            26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

            28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[c] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

            29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

            30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

            32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.””

            You, Martin, (all of us actually) have many, many freedoms in society that you would not have, were it not for the compassion, the empathy, the willingness to consider ’emotive arguments’, people in the past showed. Yet you deny that compassion and empathy to GLBTQ people.

            What does that say about you? And how does the hardness of your heart repay those who were sympathetic, empathetic, compassionate, to you and yours in the past, and to God, who has been gracious and compassionate and sympathetic and empathetic to you every day of your past, today, and every day of your future?

          • WilmRoget

            “i am wary to speak to you because i feel anything i say will be misconstrued”

            Gee, another id with the same writing errors as Rick.

            “I am not for the hate of anyone.”

            Why are you stating this?

            ” i am alluding to Jesus and his referral of Genesis in answering the Pharisees re Divorce”

            Matthew 19 for example, where Jesus is asked explicitly about heterosexual divorce. It is not rational to take a condemnation of heterosexual divorce and use it to create a condemnation of homosexual marriage.

            However, the principle ‘what God has joined together let no man separate’ certainly can be applied regardless of sexual orientation.

            “Polygamy is it blessed by God in the bible ever ?”

            Polygamy is irrelevant to the issue at hand, since it is primarily a traditional form of heterosexual marriage. I realize that you are trying to be sneaky, to use the standard homophobic talking points that have been refuted across the internet. So the simple answer for you is this: anything you hope to accomplish to condemn homosexuality by invoking polygamy, applies orders of magnitude more to heterosexuality.

            “the reason is because its legal for a Guy and a Girl to have sex after a certain age however God calls this fornication.”

            No, fornication in the Bible refers to prostitution. But again, you are trying to be clever and set a trap.

            “i think its hard to come down hard on those of us who view homosexuality
            as a sin and equate that with the murder and persecution of those who
            struggle with that challenge (i say that on the basis that i believe it
            is sin)”

            So much sin is this. First off, characterizing our innate capacity for love as ‘a challenge’ is dishonest and wicked. We are challenged not by our sexual orientation, but by the abuse and persecution inflicted on people who believe as you do.

            Second, you are not a victim. You think that I am coming down hard on you, as you assert that our innate capacity for love and intimacy is worthy of death and damnation, as your peers equate our relationships to raping children, and claim that we are to be put to death. You whine, while we are murdered around the world, raped, tortured, beaten and maimed as the direct expression of the belief you are proclaiming here.

            Well, too bad. You teach something that destroys human lives. Jesus was quite clear about the relationship between what people teach, and the consequences of what the teach, between the tree and its fruit. Good trees bear good fruit, Jesus said, and evil trees bear evil fruit. Like it or not, the stone cold fact is that ‘homosexuality is sin’ produces evil fruit. People are dead, murdered, executed, as the direct, deliberate, intentionally expression of ‘homosexuality is sin’. People are raped. People are beaten, tortured. People are persecuted to the point of suicide, all as the direct expression of the belief you proclaim.

            You are responsible. Your belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is a choice you made and continue to make.

            “i think your argument could apply to these guys but i think following God through Jesus isn’t easy.”

            No, my argument applies to those who preach ‘homosexuality is sin’, regardless of what religion they belong to. In fact, since it is Christ who said :

            5 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
            21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Matthew 7:15-23

            – a case could be made that it would be unfair to apply that test to Muslims or Buddhists or Wiccans. Not a good case, but a case. The principle is simply cause and effect and that is universal.

          • Martin Heward-Mills

            1. You have not answered on what is sexual sin or immorality.

            2. From the time of Christ and Christ included Christians have been persecuted for their faith including murder,…rape etc etc so would that mean Christianity is Bad Fruit. The Bad fruit argument cannot be applied to the feelings of people when they are confronted with their Sinful actions. Jesus was born from the line of Solomon however David was never commended for that because he sinned by taking Bathsheba and having her husband killed. I think you are using that in an extremely unbiblical context. Saying homosexuality is a sin is not a call for Rape, Murder or Prosecution. I think you overstep when you say that.

            3. I strongly would like to understand how the test of Jesus as the only way can be overcome ?

            4. If what you are saying is taken literally then any for of marriage based on a persons sexual preference is ok ..which makes sex (a gift of God for the married) an issue of identity

            i also feel that there is a difference in loving patient and tender empathy and changing a view that is biblical. Taking Jesus as the example whilst he never advocated hate, persecution, and acts of violence he didn’t say that the woman caught in adultery should go and continue…he said and sin no more

            the reason i responded on here was because this is a Gospel issue ? its an issue where we are trying to redefine and reclassify sin.. that is why you avoid defining what sexual sin is and also ignored my question on a biblical definition of Marriage.

          • WilmRoget

            “You have not answered on what is sexual sin or immorality.”

            I see. So when you wrote “if you choose not to answer its ok..” that was a lie. Since homosexuality is not sexual sin or immoral, your question was not relevant. You have not demonstrated that it is relevant.

            “The Bad fruit argument cannot be applied to the feelings of people when they are confronted with their Sinful actions.”

            Nice fraud, since that is not how I applied it. Are you always this dishonest when your trickery fails? Bear in mind, what you are attempting to do is discredit Jesus’ own words.

            “From the time of Christ and Christ included Christians have been
            persecuted for their faith including murder,…rape etc etc so would
            that mean Christianity is Bad Fruit.”

            No. It would mean that the belief ‘persecute Christians’ is evil. Let’s take an example that might be harder for you, as a person of color theoretically, to trivialize.

            People used the Bible to justify enslaving people of your race and later, to justify discriminating against such people. They lined up Bible verses to justify their destructive behavior, claiming it was ‘God’s will’. But Jesus’ evil trees bear evil fruit test shows us that no matter how many Bible passages one can line up to support slavery, or apartheid, or antisemitism, or homophobia, or coerced conversion, those beliefs are evil.

            ” Jesus was born from the line of Solomon however David was never
            commended for that because he sinned by taking Bathsheba and having her
            husband killed. ”

            That doesn’t make a lick of sense as written. And Christ’s lineal relationship to David is highlighted in the Bible.

            “I think you are using that in an extremely unbiblical context.”

            So? What you think is not evidence.

            “Saying homosexuality is a sin is not a call for Rape, Murder or Prosecution.”

            Yes, it is. After all, one of the passages used to construct ‘homosexuality is sin’ demands the death penalty.

            “I strongly would like to understand how the test of Jesus as the only way can be overcome ?”

            Since it is irrelevant to the issue at hand, why are you raising the issue?

            ” If what you are saying is taken literally then any for of marriage
            based on a persons sexual preference is ok ..which makes sex (a gift of
            God for the married) an issue of identity”

            Again, the general incoherence of your post makes it difficult to reply. However, since there are four sexual preferences – heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, and asexual – why is this a problem for you? Heterosexual people should marry a person of the opposite sex, homosexuals should marry someone of their own sex, bisexuals can marry someone of either sex, and asexuals can either choose not to marry, or marry someone who is also asexual.

            Sex is not an issue of identity, but sexual orientation is a component of it.

            The contrast is that anti-gay theology means that sex is only allowed to some people, and not other, based on how they are born, and it makes sex and marriage a matter of inequity, injustice and favoritism. The Bible is clear in James 2 – those who show favoritism are lawbreakers.

            “i also feel that there is a difference in loving patient and tender empathy and changing a view that is biblical”

            Not a word of that is relevant to the issue at hand. For one thing, the condemnation of homosexuality is not Biblical. By the way, can you explain to me why so many people who are just so devoted to the Bible that they use it to bash gays and lesbians cannot bother to show it some respect by capitalizing the word Bible or Biblical?

            Equating homosexuality with adultery, as you did, indicates both malice, and a lack of morals on your part. Adultery requires cheating, deception, a violation of consent. Homosexuality does not.

            “its an issue where we are trying to redefine and reclassify sin..”

            The only people doing that are those, like you, who proclaim ‘homosexuality is sin’.

            ‘that is why you avoid defining what sexual sin is and also ignored my question on a biblical definition of Marriage.”

            Nice sin. But your false accusation is sin, and it shows me that you ignore what the Bible teaches about sin. Please repent.

          • Martin Heward-Mills

            Brother Sin comes in many forms…God gave sex as a good gift ato enjoy in marriage. its use outside of marriage is sin. so Good things in the hands of people often deteriorate into bad. i want to make that initial statement and then try and answer what you are saying

            1. i asked you to define what sexual sin is. because you defined fornication as prostitution so i am not sure what sexual immorality is then as defined by you. Would you say that God hasn’t given any guidelines for sex ?

            2. going back even further Satan tried to used scripture against Jesus the living word. so humans capacity to take scripture out of context to support evil is nothing new. However you must accept that either people who say homosexuality is sin are taking the bible out of context or the people who say it is not sin are taking the bible out of context. that has to be the starting point from which discussions flow. We are all Slaves ..either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. i certainly do not condone slavery..however contextually the slavery of biblical times was more akin to employment then what happened in the 19th century and even then God is very clear that as bad as it is on earth the hope of heaven exceeds the suffering on earth. That doesn’t trivialise what happened. And doesn’t mean that it was wrong to not put an end to it.

            3. I think you were a bit dishonest about my use of Solomon. David as you know took Bathsheba and in adultery had sex with her. He committed Murder by getting her husband killed and as a result he was punished by God, family torn apart, death of first child amongst other misfortunes. however second child born to them both was Solomon who is in the lineage of Christ. The Good Fruit resulting from the Sin of David does not make his actions Good. bear that in mind.

            4. The contrast is that anti-gay theology means that sex is only allowed to some people, and not other, based on how they are born, and it makes sex and marriage a matter of inequity, injustice and favoritism :

            this for me is the most interesting thing you have written. There are two types of people in the world. Those who know Christ and those that do not. Marriage has a biblical definition and Sex is supposed to be confined to marriage. People who do not believe in Christ or God dont have these issues. The issue is not discrimination or inequality. Because there are many things that a practising Christian is not permitted to participate in i think you must consider that. this is a gospel issue.

            5. Adultery doesn’t always require deceit and consent violation…swingers…adultery in the heart to name but two examples.

            i think if you wanted to engage you would

          • WilmRoget

            “Brother Sin comes in many forms…”

            Do you condescend to everyone? Given how poorly you write, is that even appropriate?

            “God gave sex as a good gift ato enjoy in marriage.”

            So any living thing that is not married is not to have sex, according to you? Better go tell all the birds of the air, fish in the sea, cows in the field to take a vow of celibacy.

            “its use outside of marriage is sin.”

            Go ahead and back that up with Scripture.

            Now I understand the trap you are trying to set. You insist that sex is only for within marriage, and then define marriage to exclude same-sex couples, so you can condemn them. But that favoritism makes you a lawbreaker.

            “i asked you to define what sexual sin is.”

            And you have not justified the rational behind that question.

            ” because you defined fornication as prostitution”

            No, I said that the Biblical references that are translated ‘fornication’ actually refer to prostitution. Are you as unskilled at reading as you are at writing, thus genuinely confused about what I wrote, or are you being dishonest again? Remember, dishonesty is sin.

            “going back even further Satan tried to used scripture against Jesus the living word.”

            Keep in mind that this reference also reflects on you.

            “However you must accept that either people who say homosexuality is sin are taking the bible out of context”

            They absolutely are.

            “however contextually the slavery of biblical times was more akin to employment”

            Or you are taking it out of context.

            “I think you were a bit dishonest about my use of Solomon.”

            And yet I was not. It is interesting that you bring up Solomon with his hundreds of wives and concubines. It presents the impression that not only do you want to deny marriage to homosexuals, you want to have hundreds of wives for yourself. Talk about greed. You do know that greed – gluttony – is a sin, don’t you?

            “The Good Fruit resulting from the Sin of David does not make his actions Good. bear that in mind.”

            Again, you are trying to discredit Jesus with a false example. Why do you reject Jesus?

            “this for me is the most interesting thing you have written.”
            So?

            “There are two types of people in the world. Those who know Christ and those that do not.”

            So, since you reject Christ’s teaching in Matthew 7:15-23, that puts you in the second category, right?

            ” Marriage has a biblical definition”
            On your say-so? Someone who has rejected Jesus’ words as authoritative? Sorry, but no.

            “The issue is not discrimination or inequality.”

            And yet it is. Jesus made discrimination and inequality key to His law when He said ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. People like you who deliberately discriminate break Jesus’ law. You are a lawbreaker.

            “this is a gospel issue.”

            So to you, the Gospel is ‘homosexuality is sin’. Interesting.

            “Adultery doesn’t always require deceit and consent violation…swingers…adultery in the heart to name but two examples.”

            Only an adulterer would say that.

            “i think if you wanted to engage you would”

            I have no doubt that your sentence ended in some form of insult.

            But not a word of your post actually addresses the issues I raised. You are trying to be clever and set traps, but simply are not up to the task.

          • Troll

            He is not nearly as good at condescending everyone as you are! You speak like you think you know the Bible better than a Christian, yet clearly the way you speak eloquent words and all you are not. My ma was a Christian she would never speak the way you do to others no matter the issue at hand. But that’s what make you my hero. Turning everyone’s words and deflecting your own character on them.

          • WilmRoget

            Hi Rick.

          • WilmRoget

            “You have not answered”

            It was arrogant of you to even complain, Martin, considering that you never addressed any of the material I presented, either in my prior post to other people, or my reply to you.

            You know, you lied when you said “I am not for the hate of anyone.”, because you made it clear later that you do preach ‘homosexuality is sin’, and that belief absolutely about inciting hatred for homosexuals.

            It is not about leading anyone to God. It is not about telling anyone about God’s perfect justice, or about the salvation available to everyone by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is only about telling a tenth of humanity that you think God loves you more than them, and telling everyone else that we are to be put to death, persecuted, coerced and brutalized into abandoning the gift God gave us so you can feel exalted.

          • Troll

            . You are my kind of asshole! You dont care if you are right, wrong, or anything about anyone but yourself. You come down on how one writes, how they spell and just about everything in between. You ignore genuine questions and refuse to allow anyone to speak civilly. You are just one great big flaming, Nazi grammar fruitcake wrapped up in a rainbow flag. I love it! Please don’t change for anyone you are special just the way you are. You are my new hero

          • Troll

            Thank whoever or what ever your not a Christian

          • WilmRoget

            Your confession about yourself is not relevant to the subject at hand. At least your id is honest.

          • Martin Heward-Mills

            i missed you response so forgive that. i have replied now.
            i think you have made a discussion impossible. if the premise is to say homosexuality is a sin means hate the discussion is a gospel issue. Gentiles were never asked to stone homosexuals to death … bear that in mind.

          • WilmRoget

            “i think you have made a discussion impossible.”

            No. Discussion is not contingent on feeding your ego. I am convinced that you are running away because you simply cannot address the issues I raised, or refute what I presented.

            ” if the premise is to say homosexuality is a sin means hate the discussion is a gospel issue.”

            Since saying ‘homosexuality is sin’ absolutely expresses hate, the Gospel, specifically Christ’s law, absolutely condemns those who preach the evil belief ‘homosexuality is sin’.

            “Gentiles were never asked to stone homosexuals to death … bear that in mind.”

            Irrelevant. It does not change the nature of the way ‘homosexuality is sin’ manifests in the world – in violence.

            People are raped and murdered as the direct, purposeful, intentional and deliberate acting out of ‘homosexuality is sin’. If you truly cannot see how evil that is, and how it shows that ‘homosexuality is sin’ is itself, evil,

            then you absolutely have no business questioning anyone else’s morality or spirituality, at all, ever.

          • Troll

            “eople are raped and murdered as the direct, purposeful, intentional and deliberate acting out of ‘homosexuality is sin’.
            And there blood is on your hands, you should repent for teaching the evil FILTH of homosexuality as being ok. YOU are the problem and you clearly show it with every word you type. But thats why your my hero, we will both burn in hell and i will be right there next to you. We could have a wienie roast – I bet you would like that huh!

          • WilmRoget

            Howdy Rick.

          • WilmRoget

            Further Martin, your reply makes no attempt to address the point – that you criticized me for not addressing one pointless question in your post, while you avoided all of the issues I raised, and continued to do so.

            Essentially, you’ve set yourself up, out of pride, as an interrogator, as judge. That is not communication or dialogue, and it is arrogant and rude.

          • Troll

            Yeah Martin how dare you ask anything of my hero WilmRoget, Have you not seen how good he is, and how smart and tactful he is. He is way to busy telling everyone where it is at, to take time out for YOUR humble questions. Grow a pair like he has!

  • Dan Francis

    Not Christian myself, but…Finally. Christians who actually read what their Jesus/Yeshua said (or didn’t say, as the case may be). People who GET IT! YES!

  • Brandon

    1 Corinthians 6:9-20 (GW)
    6:9
    Don’t you know that wicked people won’t inherit the kingdom of
    God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who
    worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals,
    10 or thieves, those who are greedy or drunk, who
    use abusive language, or who rob people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 That’s what some of you were! But
    you have been washed and made holy, and you have received God’s approval in the
    name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
    12 Someone may say, “I’m allowed to
    do anything,” but not everything is helpful. I’m allowed to do anything, but I
    won’t allow anything to gain control over my life.
    13 Food is for the stomach, and the stomach is for
    food, but God will put an end to both of them. However, the body is not for
    sexual sin but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body.
    14 God raised the Lord, and by his power God will
    also raise us.
    15
    Don’t you realize that your bodies are parts of Christ’s body?
    Should I take the parts of Christ’s body and make them parts of a prostitute’s
    body? That’s unthinkable!
    16 Don’t
    you realize that the person who unites himself with a prostitute becomes one
    body with her? God says, “The two will be one.”
    17
    However, the person who unites himself with the Lord becomes one
    spirit with him.
    18
    Stay away from sexual sins. Other sins that people commit don’t
    affect their bodies the same way sexual sins do. People who sin sexually sin
    against their own bodies.
    19 Don’t
    you know that your body is a temple that belongs to the Holy Spirit? The Holy
    Spirit, whom you received from God, lives in you. You don’t belong to
    yourselves.
    20 You were bought for a
    price. So bring glory to God in the way you use your body.

    • WilmRoget

      “1 Corinthians 6:9-20”

      First off Brandon, you are using a flawed English translation. And there is no excuse for that on the internet. The reality is that the text you cited, without any explanation at all – which is lazy on your part and incompetent, is not about homosexuals at all.

      “People who continue to commit sexual sins, who
      worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals,
      10 or thieves, those who are greedy or drunk, who
      use abusive language, or who rob people will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

      Let’s talk about fraud for a moment. The actual Greek text uses two words, that your translation renders as one. Those words are malakoi and arsenokoite. Neither mean homosexual, or male prostitute as some translations render it. In fact, though Greek of Paul’s day had seventeen words for homosexuality, Paul did not use any of them:

      http://www.gaychristian101.com/what-words-could-paul-have-used-if-he-intended-to-condemn-homosexuality.html

      Now, malakoi means soft, fine. It was used as a misogynist euphemism,

      for men who demonstrated a number of ‘failings’ – like avoiding military service, cowardice, failing in business, trying too hard to be attractive to women. By the standards of Paul’s day, most of the well-known anti-gay clergy today are malakoi, and G.W. Bush and Rush Limbaugh, for example, certainly were. You might be, for all we know.

      And arsenokoite is a word Paul made up. He did not define it, but it was used to describe something that a man did to his wife. The best guess, and that is all we have, is that it referred to traders in sex slaves.

      But you have no excuse, for a moral person, someone who actually understood harm and consent, right and wrong, good and bad, would recognize that homosexuality has nothing in common with any of the other things on the list. But by equating homosexuality with those things, as you have done, you have slandered hundreds of millions of people, you have used ‘abusive language’, though the passage actually states slanderers. You condemned yourself in your false attempt to revile us.

      Worst still, your theology makes Christianity into a sex cult, you make salvation “inherit the kingdom of Heaven” contingent on having heterosexual sex. That is a serious evil on your part. You are rejecting the death and resurrection of Christ, you are rejecting ‘justified by grace through faith’, in favor of ‘saved by putting a penis in a vagina’.

      Please repent, for your sake.

  • Mr. Jon

    Ugh, spare me… as far as #1 is concerned, Christians who condone violence against gays are a very VERY small minority. You look at a group of Westboro Baptist Church members and pretend every Christian is like that?

    Just Stop.

    Would it make sense to pretend every white person advocates lynching and terrorizing black people because a small number of white people are in the klan?

    • WilmRoget

      “Ugh, spare me… as far as #1 is concerned, Christians who condone violence against gays are a very VERY small minority.”

      You are utterly wrong. Today, they represent a little less than half of Americans, but most of the population of Uganda.

      I understand your need to silence the truth though.

  • Rick

    1) Condone violence toward people who are LGBT.
    Agree 100%

    2) Be against same-sex marriage.
    WRONG!! the Bible is
    clear about same sex relations its an abomination no two ways about it. You can
    not take something God said is an abomination and add it to something he said
    was Holy and come out with something that is OK.

    3) Discriminateagainst LGBT folk.
    Discriminate NO,
    However while we are not to judge others the bible again is clear that God is
    against this practice. We are to remind our brethren of the Words of god, but
    not condemn them. In example look at how Christ worked with The Woman that was to be stoned and her lifestyle , He showed her love, he forgave her, but never did he say it was ok to be doing what she was doing but rather said to her go and sin no more.

    4) Say that the Bible/God hates gay people.
    Agree 100% the bible does not say God hates Gays, he
    says the sexual ACT is an abomination – He loves the Sinner, hates the sin

    5) Withhold ordination.
    WRONG, the bible is clear on who can be preachers, pastors, teachers, and deacons.

    6) Be quiet when people are marginalized and bullied.
    Agree 100% – Not
    stopping something bad is just as bad as doing it. there is both a sin of
    commission and a sin of omission

    7) Believe being gay is a choice.
    Wrong, even if bornthat way, a choice is made to act upon those feelings. However I believe in a God of choice, he says you can choose to believe in him or not, follow his laws or not. He will judge you by your heart and actions, and you are accountable to HIM if you follow or not.

    8) Believe it’s okay to be gay if you are celibate.
    If your not acting on the impulse to sin, then you are not sinning.

    9) Support gay conversion therapy.
    WRONG, like any sin,
    you can over come it if you truly want to. The bible says he will give you the
    power to over come sin. However there is no
    gay conversion therapy, rather like any other sin, its repentance and conversion.

    10) Think that the “gay agenda” is anything other than wanting to be who they are and love who they love.

    According to the
    Bible sin is rebellion plan and simple, this can be said of any sin. Seeing as
    the bible says committing the act is against God, then the “Agenda”
    regardless of what one says is rebellion against God.

    • Dan Francis

      Iif you want to quote Old Testament barbarity….be prepared to quote it all. If one verse applies, then it ALL applies.

      Or is this book not supposed to be the supposed “perfect, unchanging word”?

      • Rick

        not sure i follow what you are asking can you clarify please? also i dont recall quoting any verse in the above

      • Rick

        However what i will quote is this:
        2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

        and at the time this was written, scripture WAS the old testament. so please explain what you want me to answer to, and i will do my best to do so

        • Dan Francis

          I’m not entirely sure I can consider a book that promotes slavery and treating “others” (Women, various ethnic groups, disabled people, people of other religions) as second-class citizens as righteous….

          My beef/question here is that the book clearly does tell people to judge, to treat others as inferior. I can cite a slew of verses on this. My beef is with a book that has basically inspired cruelty and evil.

          Further, historically speaking, only the Torah (Penteteuch) was ‘set in stone”. The entire book as we know it now was voted on. Picked and chosen by a power happy emperor and his group of would-be priests (Constantine, Eusebius. Council of Nicaea).

          And how is being born a certain way a so-called “sin”? I am wary of taking advice from anyone or anything that says “Do as I say or I will condemn you to suffering”. Where I come from, that’s called blackmail. And it’s called “illegal” when we mortals do it.

          • Rick

            Ok Dan, i hear you, and before i go to far, let me say
            1. i am not a biblical scholar no degree nota nothing.
            2. i do not claim to know everything about the bible.
            3. I can only speak to my own studies and i try to be has honest in my understanding has i can be
            4. I try to take the whole Bible new and old, testaments to understand the full message on the topic i am studding, so it can tell me what it is saying on a subject.

            That said, You have only a single question above,

            “And how is being born a certain way a so-called “sin”?”

            First as you have heard 1000s of times, we are ALL born a certain way and the Bible says that is has sinners. So like right from jump we are all “that way”. There are no degrees of sin, a sin is a sin. We as humans say “this is a worse sin then that one”

            So the question you asked, while, not the real question i am sure, is answered by reading the whole Bible, and seeing sin as God says he sees it. Then further that by understanding why he sees any individual sin as wrong. ( i am still working my way through on that one myself after over 40 years of life) But in the end i think we will all find that there are very good reasons God is against things. and not others. And that they are told to us out of love and want for our well being. Some more obvious than others, I mean most of us get things like Dont steal, Dont Kill, right?

            As for your “Beef” I think a closer look you will find that the new testament shows that we really are not to judge or condemn one another because we are all sinners. But we are to point out truth to those that will listen. And we are to remind each other of what is written, and help each other to overcome sin. This is where most of us fall way short, and come off as “holier than thou” . I know i have been guilty of this myself , way to many times. I think because of coming of with such an apparent attitude of self-righteousness, that the real message of love is lost to the hurt feelings of the moment.

            The old testament books, yep they are harder to swallow, and yep it does looks as if WE are to judge, but again, i think that a close look, we will see, only certain elders were given judgement not everyone. Certainly I would not have been one of these elders… And yes there is a lot in the old testament i cant say i understand. The Slavery bit, in the Old testament i honestly only started looking at to find understanding maybe a year or so ago, i have my ideas, on this, but cant say i fully understand. defiantly for another time on that one.

            But because i don’t understand, is exactly why i keep reading and studding.. (not just the Bible but as much as i can on all that i can). But when someone says that the Bible says something it does not, or that it doesn’t say something it does, well thats a hard pill for me to swallow.

            As far as trusting this book, with its history of how it came together, well it is mostly by faith, but that faith came by study and prayer. And from the studding it came mostly from the old testament prophesy’s that have come true like the book of Daniel, then going into the others.

            And oh wow, did i go on and on… sorry

          • Liralen

            I very much appreciate the fact that you are very conscientiously analyzing these issues, but as a woman, I very much object to the “There are no degrees of sin, a sin is a sin.” belief.

            I’ve been treated as a sex object more times than I can count. Sex may be a sin even if I consent, but I hope you can see that rape is a worse sin.

            I’ve only recently become aware that some Christian males don’t understand that. That is because I’ve spent most of my life as a non-Christian and have been warned by my family to avoid them.

            It’s really ugly, ya know? I’m not saying that non- Christian males will rape less than Christian ones, but at least they know it’s a crime that’s far worse than if I consent.

          • Dan Francis

            Rick:

            1. I thank you for your civility, and I hope I have extended the same. I know I am quite blunt by nature, and this can be off-putting to many.
            2. Faith is not enough for me. “Faith” got my grandmother and best friend killed by disease. I have not seen faith do anything effective or productive. As the saying goes, “Two hands at work are more effective than a thousand folded in prayer.”
            3. While I too, am not a professional scholar, I too, study what I can and what I have found….I am not impressed by. Not impressed at all by the findings of a cobbled-together codex by fearful men who wanted only to consolidate power.
            4. I too cannot see the “sin is a sin” argument. There are some acts that are outright crimes against humanity — rape, cold-blooded murder, slavery, genocide. There are some which all humans commit at some point, either in the process of learning right from wrong, or by pure human folly. We’re human. Why should I apologise to anyone for being human?
            5. If being anything other than heterosexual is a “sin”, why did your “god” create over 1500 species with homosexuality naturally within them? Why then, are there gender gray areas and medical anomalies that defy a very man-made construct of “Black and white”?

            My. I am going on a bit myself. But, as I wrap, I offer this to further learning to a fellow independent scholar: Look up the books missing from the current “canon”. Find them, and read them. While I personally can’t see biblical writings as anything historical (For one thing, Hebrews in Egypt? Never happened. There’s zero archaeological evidence for it. And I trust tangible evidence faster than I do a fairy tale)…..the books themselves are fascinating reads. I have already found a few of them, if you want the source.

          • Rick

            Dan, I thank you as well. I enjoy a good debate, i think speaking with others and being open to other ideas, is what helps us grow as people. And as long has the talk remains civil and constructive i am all for it, even if we don’t agree on anything.
            As far as sin being sin. well that is how the bible puts it based on my own studies, God does not see one sin above another at least not on the surface. I say it this way because Sin is defined in the Bible as transgression of the law, nothing more nothing less. it even goes as far to say if you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all. But i stress, this is the bibles outlook on it, this is how bad any Sin is to God, that they are lumped all in as transgression of the law. But in the end, the bible does say we will each be dealt with according to our own lives, actions, and MOST importantly whats in our hearts. I think this is why we are told not to judge as well, ONLY you and God know what is in your heart.
            That said, i think our rewards and punishments handed down by God will very to a degree. Mainly in the punishments. In example i offer you Cain, from the biblical story, he killed one man, contrast that to Hitler who is responsible for Millions. I do not think when we die we go right to heaven or hell. I based on study believe death is like a sleep till the second coming and judgement day. So Cain has not been in hell burning all this time. in fact the word hell in English is taken from Both the Greek and Hebrew words (and there are a few words, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna) All mean the Grave. So allow me to back track a hair here and say they go to hell as far as going into the grave. But Cain has not been burning in hell fire all this time. While Hitler has just joined him within the last 70 so odd years.
            Yes i know the Bible say eternal punishment, but i do not think that speaks to the truth of what eternal means. As in the end results is eternal. Another example, Sodom and Gomorrah, they and the other city’s in the basin were destroyed by hell fire. They Do not Burn today, but the end result is an eternal punishment, they are ashes, burned eternally to the point they can not burn any more.
            As for your point 5 we are not animals, and if you recall, the whole earth was cursed for mans transgressions. Also while i have seen and read some of the scientific study’s on this, feel there is some misinterpretation in the data. I think these acts we see in the animal kingdom are either flat out perversions of nature, and not the “norm” or at best more of a dominance thing. Animals are not us, we are far above them and know right from wrong. Animals as far as i know can not fight the carnal part of their nature, but we humans can.

          • WilmRoget

            “As for your point 5 we are not animals,”

            Ok, I’ll bite. What are you then? Mineral? Vegetable? Fungi? Bacterium? or Virus? Those are the only choices currently known to humankind. If you are not an animal, you can only be one of these other.

            ” I think these acts we see in the animal kingdom are either flat out perversions of nature,”

            So basically, you have a fraudulent and irrational definition of nature. But what a neat point – ‘perversions of nature’. Beyond the circular definitions, the dictionaries define perversion as unnatural.

            Written language is unnatural. Computers are unnatural, so is all of the technologies that allows us to make, distribute and communicate via computers, and all other forms of written language. Factor in the environmental destruction caused in the process of making computers, and the electricity to run them, and caused by disposing of them, and that’s a lot of ‘perversion of nature’.

            And cars, now there is a gross and enormous perversion of nature. And planes. In fact, all technology beyond what occurs in nature (simple tool use, paper making, mud dwellings, etc) is a perversion of nature.

            So, Rick, if you have an integrity behind your argument, you gonna have to give up all of this unnatural, perverse technology.

            But you won’t, will you? You’ll either ignore this, or have some excuse.

            And by the way, research shows that other animals do have moral sense.

          • Rick

            To be honest i am not even sure how to answer to you. But no i am not going to give up technologies i dont see them as a sin. Though i am sure they can be use for such if one wished.
            According to the Bible we are created in the image of God, yes created beings, like the animals, but we are not animals. Maybe as far as science is concerned sure i will concede on that point. But this is not a science debate, this is what dose the Word of God say, Not what does the word of science say. i dont see God calling on the animal kingdom to repent of sin take up their cross and spread the Gospel either… or does it say that.. youll have to show me that one.

          • WilmRoget

            “To be honest i am not even sure how to answer to you.”

            An honest person would know how.

            “But no i am not going to give up technologies i dont see them as a sin.”

            So you have one standard for GLBTQ people, and a different one for yourself. Essentially, there is no integrity, or spirituality, behind your beliefs here.

            “but we are not animals.”

            What are you then? Mineral? Vegetable? Fungi? Bacterium? or Virus? Those are the only choices on earth.

            “sure i will”

            Pronouns are capitalized by educated people. You cannot be a credible witness about the Bible, a complex document written in multiple, essentially dead, languages, when you clearly have not mastered the basics of English.

            “But this is not a science”

            Science is the study of God’s creation. And Romans 1 tells us that the creation reveals the nature of God. So you are rejecting God’s creation.

            “i dont see”

            Nice argument from pride, but what you do or do not see is not evidence.

            “youll have to show me”

            After you show that the Bible allows you to use computers.

            The reality here, Rick, is you have an irrational argument that cannot stand up even to itself. You are making a lot of noise out of malice, to defend a belief that consistently manifests in evil.

            People are raped and murdered as the deliberate acting out of the belief you are teaching here. And Jesus said, in Matthew 7:15-23, that such evil fruit means that the teaching is evil, and those who teach it are false teachers.

            So answer one question, Rick, as honestly as you can: how many millions of gays and lesbians have to be slaughtered before you will realize that ‘homosexuality is sin’ is an entirely evil belief that cannot come from God?

          • Dan Francis

            My apologies for any brevity here, but I must ask you to source any credible, scientific evidence that suggests the over 1500 species which exhibit homosexuality as somehow “not natural” or a “perversion”.

            Further, I direct you to various gender anomalies and blurs in the lines of human sexuality — Fragile X Syndrome, 5-alpha reductase deficiency, androgen insensitivity syndrome, mosaicism. These are just a few. Are you going to call people born with these conditions somehow “unnatural”? Somehow, I think that if you tried that in person, you would be at risk of being punched in the face. Please understand that no, I am NOT making any threat here. Seriously, if you dared call someone, a fellow human being, “unnatural”….ten to one, you would be smacked at least.

            Homosexuality, as much as any other human condition, is natural. Actual science proves it, and I trust actual science much faster than I’d trust a man-made construct such as faith.

          • Rick

            Liralen,
            First let me say i am truly sorry you have been treated as such. and on a personal note, As a human, I would agree, there are degrees of sin. But coming from the Bibles stand point, any and all Sin is bad. And they all lead to the same place, death, destruction and the defiling of the human being.
            And if i am going to be honest i have to admit great atrocity’s have been committed in the name of religion, and Christianity or proclaimed Christians have been some of the forerunners of these terrible things. But that is not true Christianity, no more than the Terrorists attacks with suicide bombings are a true view of Islam.
            In the end can we really say there is a degree of evil? I mean sure, I can tell a lie, or i can go and steal something from you. On the surface one would say the theft was a greater sin.. but in the end both are wrong. Sure we place a degree on the sin, but to God, both examples above separate us from him and both cary the same penalty. And yet both have the same way out, repentance of our ways and Faith in the grace of Christ to cover our sins.

          • WilmRoget

            ” i am not a biblical scholar no degree nota nothing.”

            And yet, too ignorant to even capitalize the first letter of a sentence, you set yourself up as the judge over hundreds of millions of people.

            You are a false teacher, according to Jesus’ own teachings on the matter. Please repent.

          • Rick

            ignorant no, lazy maybe,

          • WilmRoget

            No, ignorant and lazy. Educated people use proper punctuation, spelling and grammar, to the best of their ability, because it demonstrates that they have mastered the basics of written communication.

            And frankly, since you admit to being too lazy to use proper capitalization, it is safe to conclude that you’ve been too lazy to research this issue sufficiently to justify the danger you place gays and lesbians in, or the viciousness of your slanders of us.

          • Rick

            wow and yet you say i am filled with hate

          • WilmRoget

            You are the one teaching ‘homosexuality is sin’, a belief that results in the murder and rape of real human beings, not I.

            There is no hate in my post, simply factual information that reveals your sin.

          • Rick

            I will walk away from this discussion with you. It will not get us anywhere i see that now. I can not speak to what others have done or do, i can only speak for myself. I will pray for you, and hope that you too will pray for me. We are both sinners and both need salvation plan and simple.

          • WilmRoget

            In other words, you will not talk to GLBTQ people. You will talk about us. You will revile us in public. You will promote violence. But you won’t talk to us. You won’t face the fact that the belief you teach produce murder and rape.

            Better then that you never, ever talk about us at all, any where. It was never your place to rebuke our lives.

            Now, you’ve said you’re going to walk away – let’s see if that was empty noise, or if you can actually live up to it.

          • Rick

            No i see this is how you roll from above, so i guess i was being empty. Lets do this here is the biblical texts that i know of to point your sin this is what you wanted , you can have it.
            From the Bible:
            Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

            Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
            Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

            Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
            Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

          • Rick

            Nothing to say in the face of the word the Bible clearly said? Come on now you say you want someone to back their position i have and no response from you? Come on tell me how am using a bad translation. Tell me how pointing out the Sin of homosexuality makes me a lair. Tell me how i am misinterpreting the words for my own use. Tell me how my writing shows my ignorance.

          • WilmRoget
          • Rick

            You know what, i will apologize at this point. I will apologize that i continued to go down this road with you. This is no longer an edification to anyone. And by me continuing in this debate with you I am pulling myself down to a level i should not. The Bible says what it says. You disagree, well your welcome to. I should have stuck to the I am walking away, but instead i stayed and continued to entertain this talk with you. We are not going to agree on this point. I am sure you will have more to say, to me or others. I will review more of what you have said, and i will try to have a better understanding of you point of view, I may even learn something. I don’t think you’ll change my mind, but maybe it will change how i approach this topic in the future.

          • WilmRoget

            “You know what, i will apologize at this point. I will apologize that i continued to go down this road with you.”

            Apologizing for the wrong thing is as bad as no apology.

            “This is no longer an edification to anyone.”

            That is a very rather prideful conclusion. It is possible that other people, people who find ‘homosexuality is sin’ to be a repulsive belief, are finding value in this.

            “The Bible says what it says.”

            It just does not say what you claim it says about homosexuals.

            Now, you’ve made this big show here, going so far as to criticize me for not responding fast enough, and when I do, you run away.

            The Bible does not ‘clearly’ condemn homosexuality. It takes considerable carelessness, willful fraud, or deliberate malice to create ‘homosexuality is sin’. It requires ignoring context, making irrational assumptions, and flat out disobeying Christ to create ‘homosexuality is sin’.

            It takes evil to produce ‘homosexuality is sin’, and the belief itself produces evil. It cannot come from God.

          • Troll

            THE WINNER!!!!!! HOOT

          • WilmRoget

            “No i see this is how you roll from above,”

            Your abusiveness is not helping you.

            “Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

            First off, you do realize, don’t you, that the word ‘thou’ applies to anyone and everyone, including women. So the first fatal flaw in your interpretation is that it forbids women to have sex with men.

            Second, gay men do not lie with men ‘as with womankind’. That’s the second fatal flaw. Gay men lie with men as with men. Further, that whole ‘as with womankind’ is a fraudulent translation of the Hebrew.

            So you present yourself as such an expert, tell us all, exactly, where is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men?

            Mishkap ishshah is the common transliteration of the two words in the Hebrew text that your source renders ‘as with womankind’. It means no such thing. But since you condescendingly present yourself as such an expert on the lives of gay and lesbians,

            Where exactly is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men? Googlemap coordinates will be appropriate.

            Now, it is fraud to use Lev 18:22, and not use the parallel Lev 20:13, which imposes the death penalty. So I need to know from you how you intend to execute the seven hundred million homosexuals you assert these passages condemn. Were you planning on stretching us out on an altar and ripping our hearts out?

            I see that you cited from Ezekiel, and ignoring that in it God makes no mention of homosexuality, insinuate that ‘detestable things’ refers to homosexuals. Nice slander through insinuation.

            However, you made a mistake. You see, God establishes, earlier in his revelation to Ezekiel, what God meant by detestable practices:

            20 “‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.

            and
            “36 This is what the Sovereign Lord
            says: Because you poured out your lust and exposed your naked body in
            your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable
            idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood,”

            Human sacrifice to idols, that is what God is talking about. And the sad thing is I’ve pointed out this several times on this thread.

            Because the real world result of ‘homosexuality is sin’ is the deliberate persecution of homosexuals, including murder and rape, the reality is that people who preach ‘homosexuality is sin’ are actually engaged in human sacrifice.

            Some only do it in words, by using Leviticus to condemn homosexuals, or by reviling and tormenting kids who don’t present as heterosexual (enough) to suicide.

            Some do it through the agency of civil law, criminalizing homosexuality and making it punishable by imprisonment and death. In the U.S. homosexuals were executed during the colonial period, and they face execution in allegedly Christian countries around the world today.

            And some people commit those human sacrifices with their own hands, murdering, torturing, beating and maiming and raping homosexuals.

            The spiritual truth here is that those who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’ are among the heirs of Sodom.

            “going after strange flesh,”

            Strange flesh. The greek words there are ‘heteros’ and ‘sarx’.
            http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2087&t=KJV

            “the other, another, other
            to number
            to number as opposed to some former person or thing
            the other of two
            to quality
            another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different”

            http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4561&t=KJV

            Different. As in males are physiologically different than females. Heteros, as in hetero-sexual, and heterosexuality. Verses 6 and 7 refer back to the pre-flood story in Genesis 6, in which angels, “sons of God” had sex with human women, who gave birth to tyrants (or giants in some translations).

            So if Jude 1:6,7 were a condemnation of any sexual orientation, it would be a condemnation of heterosexuality.

          • Rick

            Nope nor am i going to just walk away. I was going to till your lies continued to spew from you. You can site bad translations all day has defense. But all you are saying is that you yourself do not care what the word of God as to say. I am not going to look any further than my own bible and concordances for the Greek or Hebrew meanings. But as i am not Greek or Hebrew but American, and speak English the King James Bible will do just fine for me.

            “Your abusiveness is not helping you.”
            you are the one that has been abusive here not me. I am speaking of the truth of the word while you make excuses and try to say the Bible says something it does not, to make yourself feel good in your sin. I can do this all day with you i will quote the Bible and say here it is, you will pervert its words to fit your own agenda.

          • WilmRoget

            “Nope nor am i going to just walk away.”

            So you lied earlier.

            “I was going to till your lies continued to spew from you.”

            I have told no lies, but you, well you said were were going to walk away, and then you kept posting.

            “You can site bad translations all day has defense. But all you are saying is that you yourself do not care what the word of God as to say.”

            Actually, you are the one providing bad translations. And that means that the accusation you made about me, is actually a confession of your own state of mind.

            ” I am not going to look any further than my own bible and concordances for the Greek or Hebrew meanings.”

            In other words, you cannot defend your claims.

            “But as i am not Greek or Hebrew but American, and speak English the King James Bible will do just fine for me.”

            So you do not care about accuracy. As long as a translation excuses your sin against GLBTQ people, that is good enough for you.

            “I am speaking of the truth of the word”

            No, you are not.

            “while you make excuses and try to say the Bible says something it does not, to make yourself feel good in your sin”

            That is a very good description of your behavior here.

            ” I can do this all day with you i will quote the Bible and say here it is, you will pervert its words to fit your own agenda.”

            Again, your false accusations only describe what you have been doing.

            And for all of this angry noise from you, you completely failed to even attempt to address the material I presented.

            So you present yourself as such an expert, tell us all, exactly, where is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men?

            Mishkap ishshah is the common transliteration of the two words in the Hebrew text that your source renders ‘as with womankind’. It means no such thing. But since you condescendingly present yourself as such an expert
            on the lives of gay and lesbians,

            Where exactly is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men? Googlemap coordinates will be appropriate.

            Now, it is fraud to use Lev 18:22, and not use the parallel Lev 20:13, which imposes the death penalty. So I need to know from you how you intend to execute the seven hundred million homosexuals you assert these
            passages condemn. Were you planning on stretching us out on an altar and ripping our hearts out?

            I hope you understand that through your empty dismissals, you have signaled to me, and to other people, that you simply cannot refute what I presented, and that you are conceding, the passages you cited do not say what you claim they do.

          • Rick

            If you say so.

          • WilmRoget

            Your empty dismissals indicate that you have nothing to back up your vicious attack on GLBTQ people.

          • Rick

            here are your two words by the way, i did go look them up: from the Strong’s concordance:

            mishkâb
            mish-kawb’
            From H7901; a bed (figuratively a bier); abstractly sleep; by euphemism carnal intercourse: – bed ([-chamber]), couch, lieth (lying) with.

            ‘ishshâh nâshı̂ym
            ish-shaw’, naw-sheem’
            The first form is the feminine of H376 or H582; the second form is an irregular plural; a woman (used in the same wide sense as H582).: – [adulter]ess, each, every, female, X many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English.

          • Rick

            “Where exactly is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men? Googlemap coordinates will be appropriate.”

            Indeed!

          • WilmRoget

            Your incompetence is not helping you.

            How do you want to kill all of the hundreds of millions of gay men and lesbians you have sentenced to death?

          • Rick

            I have not sentenced anyone to death, that is the words of the Bible, no in fact i would rather all would repent of their sins, regardless of what that sin may be.

            The Lord is the one who will judge “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.”

          • WilmRoget

            “I have not sentenced anyone to death,”

            Lying about your sin doesn’t make it go away.

            ” that is the words of the Bible,”

            No, you are responsible for your application of those words your misrepresent and lie about. You commit seven hundred million counts of murder in your thoughts every time you proclaim, because of Leviticus, that homosexuality is a sin.

            “The Lord is the one who will judge “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.””

            And how will the Lord judge you for your seven hundred million counts of murder in thought?

            Further, can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your personal articulation of ‘homosexuality is sin’ has not resulted in anyone’s death? Or that the evil things you’ve said here about homosexuals won’t encourage someone to kill homosexuals, or drive some gay kid to suicide? Depending on how vicious and public you’ve been with your ‘homosexuality is sin’, there may be several dead bodies in graves because of your actions.

            Heck, for all anyone can tell from here, you may have committed violent crimes against GLBTQ people already. You’ve done so in word, how can I or anyone trust that you have not acted out ‘in the flesh’ the cruelty and malice you’ve articulated in your posts?

          • Rick

            I guess we will see how he will Judge me. But thank you for your concern of my well being.

          • WilmRoget

            Now see, a real Christian would be concerned about the harm he or she was doing to others, but instead, you are only concerned about yourself.

          • WilmRoget

            So you just cannot keep your word.

            “here are your two words by the way,”

            I knew what the words mean. I asked you for the precise coordinates for the bed of the wife in every gay man’s home. Bed Wife is in both of the Leviticus passages you claim condemn homosexuality,

            you have the burden of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt – because the death penalty is involved after all – that there is a wife’s bed in every gay man’s home.

            Absent that evidence, you are falsely accusing millions of people, and that is a lot of sin weighing on your soul.

            “Oh and here is every translation”

            And again, not a one of them actually describes the lives of homosexual men. You’ve accomplished nothing except a tremendous display of incompetence.

            First off, you do realize, don’t you, that the word ‘thou’ applies to anyone and everyone, including women. So the first fatal flaw in your interpretation is that it forbids women to have sex with men.

            Second,
            gay men do not lie with men ‘as with womankind’. That’s the second fatal flaw. Gay men lie with men as with men. Further, that whole ‘as with womankind’ is a fraudulent translation of the Hebrew.

            Where exactly is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men? Googlemap coordinates will be appropriate.

            Now,it is fraud to use Lev 18:22, and not use the parallel Lev 20:13, which imposes the death penalty. So I need to know from you how you intend to execute the seven hundred million homosexuals you assert these
            passages condemn. Were you planning on stretching us out on an altar and ripping our hearts out?

            C’mon. You present yourself as such an expert,

            how do you plan to kill us? According to you, the Bible demands it. How are going to carry that out?

          • Troll

            I got two words for you too, Can you guess what they are?

          • Rick

            Oh and here is every translation of the same text that i currently have just to be fair on the whole translation part:

            Leviticus 18:22

            (ABP+) AndG2532 withG3326 a manG730 you shall notG3756 go to bedG2837 in a marriage-bedG2845 in the feminine way ;G1134 [3an abominationG946 1forG1063 2it is].G1510.2.3

            (ABP-G+) καιG2532 μεταG3326 αρσενοςG730 ουG3756 κοιμηθησηG2837 κοιτηνG2845 γυναικειανG1134 βδελυγμαG946 γαρG1063 εστιG1510.2.3

            (ASV) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

            (BBE) You may not have sex relations with men, as you do with women: it is a disgusting thing.

            (Brenton) And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination.

            (CEV) It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man.

            (Darby) And thou shalt not lie with mankind as one lieth with a woman: it is an abomination.

            (DRB) Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: because it is an abomination.

            (ERV) “Men, you must not have sexual relations with another man as with a woman. That is a terrible sin!

            (ESV) You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

            (GNB) No man is to have sexual relations with another man; God hates that.

            (GW) Never have sexual intercourse with a man as with a woman. It is disgusting.

            (HOT+) ואתH854 זכרH2145 לאH3808 תשׁכבH7901 משׁכביH4904 אשׁהH802 תועבהH8441 הוא׃H1931

            (ISV) You are not to have sexual relations with a male as you would with a woman. It’s detestable.”

            (JPS) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.

            (KJV) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

            (KJV+) Thou shalt notH3808 lieH7901 withH854 mankind,H2145 as withH4904 womankind:H802 itH1931 is abomination.H8441

            (KJV-1611) Thou shalt not lie with mankinde, as with womankinde: it is abomination.

            (LITV) And you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is a perversion.

            (LXX+) καιG2532 CONJ μεταG3326 PREP αρσενοςA-GSN ουG3364 ADV κοιμηθησηG2837 V-FPI-2S κοιτηνG2845 N-ASF γυναικοςG1135 N-GSF βδελυγμαG946 N-NSN γαρG1063 PRT εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S

            (MKJV) You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God.

            (RV) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

            (Webster) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

            (YLT) `And with a male thou dost not lie as one lieth with a woman; abomination it is .

          • WilmRoget

            By the way, I did not fail to notice that you did not ‘walk away’. Clearly your ‘I will walk away from this discussion with you.’ was not honest. How then can one believe anything you post?

          • Troll

            Why does he keep coming back? I think i read 2-3 times he was done, man you can beat someone down, but they just keep on coming back, what a dumb ass

          • Rick

            If you understand my thoughts, and ideas on a subject if you got what i am say..then i have successfully communicated.

          • WilmRoget

            No. Put down the egotism and sinful pride.

            People are murdered and raped as the direct result of the belief you teach, and all you can do is whine about how persecuted you are when your incompetent writing skills are pointed out.

          • Rick

            Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

          • WilmRoget

            I’ve addressed this in another post to you, where you brought it up, so I’m going to quote myself:

            “Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

            First off, you do realize, don’t you, that the word ‘thou’ applies to anyone and everyone, including women. So the first fatal flaw in your interpretation is that it forbids women to have sex with men.

            Second, gay men do not lie with men ‘as with womankind’. That’s the second fatal flaw. Gay men lie with men as with men. Further, that whole ‘as with womankind’ is a fraudulent translation of the Hebrew.

            So you present yourself as such an expert, tell us all, exactly, where is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men?

            Mishkap ishshah is the common transliteration of the two words in the Hebrew text that your source renders ‘as with womankind’. It means no such thing. But since you condescendingly present yourself as such an expert
            on the lives of gay and lesbians,

            Where exactly is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men? Googlemap coordinates will be appropriate.

            Now, it is fraud to use Lev 18:22, and not use the parallel Lev 20:13, which imposes the death penalty. So I need to know from you how you intend to execute the seven hundred million homosexuals you assert these
            passages condemn. Were you planning on stretching us out on an altar and ripping our hearts out?

          • Rick

            William, I have been reading a lot of your comments here, as you have asked me to repent several time and others. So i will make an assumption that you consider yourself a christian. So at least if that is the fact we can start on common ground. My question to you however is this, I understand your disagreement here, truly i do, and can even say i feel for you and understand why you may be angered by some of the comments. But as a Christian do you feel this debate, even though it may cause hurt feelings, really requires you to be condescending and to insult others for their point of view? I mean you called me ignorant due to capitalization, sorry if that offends you it makes me lazy not ignorant. I think your opinions and views are as relivent as anyone else, even if i do not agree with them. But i am not attaching you directly possibly indirectly but not to hurt or be hurtful. I am expressing what my own study of the Bible have shown me. Yep it is directly opposed to your understanding and belief. But if we as a people are ever going to get anywhere we must refrain from insults, present our views, the facts as we understand them and talk them out. Maybe you feel threatened by our words of opposition, and i understand why, but does that call for insults?

          • WilmRoget

            “My question to you however is this, I understand your disagreement here,
            truly i do, and can even say i feel for you and understand why you may
            be angered by some of the comments.”

            That is not a question, it is a statement combining your alleged but unsubstantiated feelings with an assumption you’ve made about me that has no bearing on anything.

            “really requires you to be condescending and to insult others for their point of view?”

            Your false accusation is sin, and frankly, it comes across as projection. After all, you are not only insulting hundreds of millions of people for their innate capacity for love and intimacy, condescending to know what is best for their lives, you are being condescending to me – all to avoid the issues I raised.

            “But i am not attaching you directly possibly indirectly but not to hurt or be hurtful.”

            Attaching – to fasten or affix; join; connect. You are attacking me, and every other GLBTQ person, and you are being hurtful and malicious.

            “But if we as a people are ever going to get anywhere we must refrain
            from insults, present our views, the facts as we understand them and
            talk them out.”

            How condescending of you, giving advice you have yet to live up to here.

            You revile hundreds of millions of people, promoting violence and discrimination. People are raped and murdered as the direct result of the belief you teach.

            You have no business, at all, lecturing me about civility while people die because of the belief you are defending.

          • WilmRoget

            “Maybe you feel threatened by our words of opposition, and i understand why, but does that call for insults?”

            Again, your fantasies reveal the sin in your heart. I’ve been quite clear about the physical damage that ‘homosexuality is sin’ inflicts in the world.

            Maybe you should actually care about the people who are raped and murdered as the direct manifestation of ‘homosexuality is sin’. Maybe you should care that the violent oppression of GLBTQ people, around the world, proves that ‘homosexuality is sin’ is evil and cannot come from God.

          • Troll

            He is not threatened by you. Nothing you say will be right, what cant handle the truth? He insults you because you are not worth his time. You cant teach him anything he does not already know. And If you could tell him anything, I am sure he can tell you why and how you are wrong. Give up

          • Troll

            Get him, get good! Tell that ignorant Bible thumping false teacher. Tell him all about thous nasty Christian lies.

        • WilmRoget

          In other words, Rick, you have nothing to back up your sinful, slanderous, prideful claims about hundreds of millions of people.

          Please repent.

    • WilmRoget

      “the Bible is clear about same sex relations its an abomination no two ways about it.”

      Absolutely not. But Rick, the passage that you think condemns homosexuality as an abomination, also demands violence. So you already know you are wrong, because you recognize that violence against GLBTQ people is wrong. The irony is that you do absolutely not only condone violence against us, you actively promote, in your post.

      You teach evil, Rick. You promote violence and discrimination against GLBTQ people. Humans are raped and murdered as the direct result of the belief that homosexuality is a sin.

      Now Jesus said that false teachers are revealed by the evil fruit they bear, and everyone, including you, who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ is a false teacher, because that evil belief produces only evil.

      “Wrong, even if bornthat way, a choice is made to act upon those feelings.”

      No, you are lying about our lives, and then forcing on us a deprivation you do not force on your self. You are sinning against hundreds of millions of people. You are the one rebelling against God.

      • Rick

        We must have two different bibles then, because the act IS called an abomination. You can jump up and down and say it is not. but it will not change the fact. You can say i am teaching evil, you can call me every name in the book, speak as badly as you wish of me but its not going to change Gods word.
        I get that you are hurt by this fact and that you want to justify your actions and continue in the lifestyle feeling it is ok, and your free to do so. I will not apologize for what the word of God says. There are things it says about myself i struggle with, but because it is the word of God, no matter how much i love my lifestyle and the things i do, no matter how much it hurts that the bible says they are wrong… my deciding i do not agree with them dose not change the fact of what the bible says. You can flip it spin it turn it upside down, but truth will remain truth.

        • WilmRoget

          “We must have two different bibles then, because the act IS called an abomination.”
          And yet it is not, and you provided nothing to back your claim up. Now, the Bible does say this, regarding things that are called abomination/detestable/to’ebah:

          16 There are six things the Lord hates,
          seven that are detestable to him:
          17 haughty eyes,
          a lying tongue,
          hands that shed innocent blood,
          18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
          feet that are quick to rush into evil,
          19 a false witness who pours out lies
          and a person who stirs up conflict in the community. Proverbs 6.

          The reality is that people who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’ commit all seven of these detestable things, these abominations, these ‘to’ebah’ as a matter of course in preaching their condemnation of homosexuals. But homosexuality is not on the list.

          “You can jump up and down and say it is not. but it will not change the fact.”

          Your sinful dismissal of your my post only indicates that you cannot refute any of it with fact or Scripture.

          “You can say i am teaching evil,”

          You are. You are teaching an evil belief that manifests in rape and murder. You can deny that reality, but it does not make your sin against GLBTQ people go away.

          ” you can call me every name in the book,”

          Your false insinuation is sin. Please repent.

          ” you can call me every name in the book, speak as badly as you wish of me but its not going to change Gods word.”

          Now all of that is something you need to take to heart, for people who proclaim ‘homosexuality is sin’ call homosexuals abominations, revile and slander us, persecute, rape and murder us, but it doesn’t change God’s word – and God’s word neither condemns homosexuality, nor condone the persecution you and your peers inflict on gays and lesbians.

          So you’ve danced about, telling me all kinds of things that have no bearing on what I have written, and not provided anything to back up your claims or address what I wrote.

          “I get that you are hurt by this fact”

          Your derogatory fantasy only reflects your character. I’m not hurt by your childishness, I’ve survived a great deal worse. But what does trouble me, even hurt me, is the pain that other GLBTQ people, like those who are bullied to suicide by people who believe as you do. And the pain of men and women who have endured corrective rape – raped to make them be heterosexual.

          Think about that – people are raped to convince them that your belief is true. Rape is the direct fruit of your belief. Too bad that doesn’t seem to trouble you at all.

          “the lifestyle feeling it is ok,”

          There is no gay lifestyle. You are bearing false witness, and that is in.

          “I will not apologize for what the word of God says.”

          That is irrelevant, because you are not being asked to apologize for what the Word of God says, you are being told to repent for the evil things you posted about hundreds of millions of people.

          People are murdered because of the belief you are defending, and you are accountable for it.

  • Rhee Joyce

    Whoever wrote this must have written it in that the reader had no intention on reading the Bible . While it’s true that The Word of God not to hate anyone because it is like murder, 1 Corinthians 6:9 clearly condemns homosexuality (the act and lifestyle). The Book of Romans 1:26-27 talks about it stating that it’s a vile affection that God gave them into. This writer is wrong, they did understand and have concept of homosexuality. It was widely accepted by the Romans and Greeks. I haven’t even talked about the old testament. The fact that remains is that like everyone else in the world they need to give their hearts to Christ and LET HIM CHANGE THEM! which is something that not hard of in churches today. Which is why you have people who say they are gay and Christian at the same time. Which is an oxymoron. The word Christian means Christ like.

    • Adam King

      You’re misreading mistranslated Bible texts, and pulling them out of context. That’s just ignorant.

    • WilmRoget

      “Whoever wrote this must have written it in that the reader had no intention on reading the Bible .”
      You are talking about your own post, right? Otherwise, you’d be bearing false witness, which the Bible condemns as sin.

      ‘1 Corinthians 6:9 clearly condemns homosexuality”

      Nice lie. But the passage you are raping does not use any of the 17 greek words of Paul’s time and culture that refer to homosexuals. There is no gay lifestyle, nor even really any such thing as a ‘gay act’. Your lies are sin. Further, in your fraud, you left out verse 10, which condemns slanderers. And by equating homosexuality with the other things on that list, or the parallel in I Timothy 1, you are slandering hundreds of millions of people. You’ve barred yourself from the Kingdom of Heaven, unless you repent.

      Additionally, your interpretation makes salvation contingent on being heterosexual, or having heterosexual sex. Not only is that a rejection of Christ’s death and resurrection as the means of salvation, and Paul’s ‘justified by grace through faith’, it transforms Christianity into a sex cult. You are essentially proclaiming that people have to have a certain kind of sex to make your god happy.

      And ironically, that is what Paul really wrote about in Romans 1. Yes, you fraudulently skipped the references to idolatry in that passage, and the fact that your theology requires deception proves it is evil.

      And Rhee, Paul writes about people abandoning their physikos chresis – their innate sexual use of the opposite gender. Guess what? Homosexuals do not have an innate sexual use of the opposite gender, they cannot abandon what they do not have.

      Paul was writing about heterosexuals engaged in sex as worship with priests and priestesses of fertility religions, not homosexuals. The tragedy for you is that you have made Christianity into a sex cult.

      ” I haven’t even talked about the old testament. ”

      You just did, and you damned yourself. We all know what passages you are insinuating – but none of them refer to homosexuals. But by even mentioning them by insinuation, you bind yourself to all of the laws in Leviticus, and you do endorse murdering seven hundred million people. Now Jesus said that if you commit a sin in your thoughts, using the example of adultery, you sin as surely as if you’d done it in the flesh. By falsely interpreting Leviticus 20:13 (even by insinuation), as condemning homosexuality, you committed seven hundred million counts of murder in your thoughts – and murder is a sin.

      And no, according to God, in Ezekiel 16, the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality.

      “Which is why you have people who say they are gay and Christian at the same time. Which is an oxymoron. ”

      Your slander is sin, truly wicked and depraved. It absolutely is not Christ-like, and creates the impression that you know nothing genuine about Christ.

      Now, Rhee, Jesus said in Matthew 7:15-23, that false teachers are revealed by their evil fruit. The fruit of ‘homosexuality is sin’, and therefore those who teach it, is murder, rape, violence of every kind, systemic injustice, and as your post shows, slander and hate.

      This means that you are a false teacher. Ponder that for a moment, people are raped and murdered as the direct expression of the belief you are teaching here.

      And you are responsible. You are answerable for that violence.

      • Troll

        LOL up voted himself

        • WilmRoget

          I appreciate the honesty of your id.

          • Troll

            NO you don’t appreciate any honesty at all you just lied please repent.

          • WilmRoget

            Hello Rick.

  • Troll

    Homo-phobics Hetero-phobics, Christians, and Atheists all in one place, what could go wrong?

  • Tamara

    I agree with most of the points… 1,3,4,5,6,9,10
    I disagree with 2,7,8.
    Your first thought on what I believe regarding number 8 will more than likely be incorrect. So ask me for a clearer explanation.
    This is a discussion, so I’m willing to discuss why I stand for what I believe in. However, unless I receive email notifications stating when someone has replied to my comment, I’m not likely to come back to this thread every single day. So it will be a while before I can respond. Please keep your comments respectful as everyone is entitled to voice their belief if they so choose, and I will be respectful of you.

    • WilmRoget

      So you disagree with number 7 – which is about the innateness of homosexuality. Essentially, then, Tamara, you are disagreeing with hundreds of millions of GLBTQ people about their own lives.

      How is that respectful of you, to tell GLBTQ people like me that you know better than we do the truth of our lives?

      And you oppose same-sex marriage, that was issue number 2. So unless you also oppose mixed-sex marriage, you endorse prejudice and discrimination. But point 3, which you said you agree with, condemns discrimination. So it seem that you agree that discrimination is a moral wrong, but, at the same time, knowing that discrimination is wrong, you support discrimination against GLBTQ people.

      How is that respectful?

      Now, point 8, the idea that people will tolerate homosexuality on the condition that homosexuals are celibate, which the author finds fault with, and apparently, though without any explanation, you disagree with him. So you think it is ok to with-hold acceptance and civil equality from non-celibate homosexuals, apparently. How is that respectful?

  • Kyle

    I have a problem with number 4. As the bible does speak on this subject many times and very explicitly. For example…Leviticus 18:22 “Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.” (NLT). And if you say, oh well thats the OT laws. How about some Romans ch 1. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Just one more to throw out there…1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NLT) This specifically says..Those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God. Should we as believers love these people and pray for them? Absolutely. Should we be telling people that being Gay or Lesbian is ok? NO. And to one of the previous posts saying something along the lines of..”that was bible times and things are different now.” NO. That is blatantly not true. Yes obviously things are different but if the Bible doesn’t apply to Present day in all aspects then I find it hard to apply in any aspects. We can’t pick and choose what we want. The Bible clearly states homosexuality as wrong, detestable, vile in God’s eyes. The same thing applies today and yes He did mean Homosexuality in the Bible and YES He means homosexuality now.

    • WilmRoget

      “As the bible does speak on this subject many times and very explicitly.”
      No, it does not.

      “For example…Leviticus 18:22”

      So, oh expert, where is the mishkap ishshah in the lives of gay men? Bear in mind, you are bound, by your own words, to all of the laws in Leviticus. Further, gay men do not have sex with men ‘as with a woman’, as any rational person can understand. Why are you, personally, unable to see that?

      And explain, Kyle, how you plan on carrying out the companion verse’s death penalty. You see, Kyle, you just proclaimed that you believe that seven hundred million people should be murdered as human sacrifices to your god. And even though so many people have been killed as the direct expression of ‘homosexuality is sin’, year after year, reported in the mainstream press, kids, adults, men and women, burned alive, shot, beaten to death, brutalized in every way humans are capable of – you are here telling us that you believe we should be murdered because it will make your god happy.

      And clearly, you don’t see how truly evil that is. Why are you unable to see that declaring that hundreds of millions of people are to be offered as a blood sacrifice to your god is wrong?

      “How about some Romans ch 1.”

      What about Romans 2:
      “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

      5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are
      storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.””

      Now, what have you done? Well, you have declared that you believe that seven hundred million people should be executed to make your god happy, and that doing so is moral and good.

      As for Romans 1, Paul writes of people abandoning their innate sexual attraction to the opposite gender, as a result of their practice of idolatry. Homosexuals do not have an innate sexual attraction to the opposite gender, they cannot abandon what they do not have.

      “.1 Corinthians 6:9-11″

      Neither of the words Paul used here, malakoi and arsenokoite, mean homosexual. And since homosexuality has nothing in common with stealing, addiction, adultery, or murder in the parallel passage, you are a slanderer, and this very passage asserts that slanderers such as yourself are barred from the Kingdom of Heaven.

      Further, your interpretation of this passage makes salvation contingent on being born heterosexual, or at least having heterosexual sex. You have ditched Christ, his death and resurrection, and ‘salvation by grace through faith’, for salvation by putting a penis in a vagina.

      ” Should we be telling people that being Gay or Lesbian is ok? NO.”

      Absolutely wrong. Being gay or lesbian is ok, it is better than ok, it is how God made us. Who are you to judge God?

      “he Bible clearly states homosexuality as wrong, detestable, vile in God’s eyes.”

      No, it does not. Your slander though and your desire to sacrifice seven hundred million people to your false god of ego, is sin.

      Now, Kyle, the material you have presented has been refuted not only here, but across the internet. And yet you made no attempt to even consider any of that scholarship. You are not here to discuss, you are not here to bring anyone to Christ. You are here to revile hundreds of millions of people.

      Well, the belief you teach destroys people. It produces evil fruit, like murder and rape. And that evil fruit means that you, Kyle, are a false teacher, a worker of iniquity, to whom Christ will say: “I know you not”.

      Matthew 7:15-23.

  • ucfengr

    Setting aside the particular arguments, I think the most interesting point of this ariticle is that it highlights how narrowly dogmatic and intolerant the “religious left” has become. By this standard, even Pope Francis doesn’t qualify as “following Jesus”.

    • WilmRoget

      “Setting aside the particular arguments,”

      Interesting approach. Basically, you are setting aside the evidence that would support or challenge your subsequent claim, preemptively, so your claim can stand as “fact” solely on your say-so.

      ” I think the most interesting point of this ariticle is that it
      highlights how narrowly dogmatic and intolerant the “religious left” has
      become.”

      Nice fantasy. Dishonest, but what a nice way to disparage lots of people for the sake of your ego.

      Now, about those accusations ‘narrowly dogmatic’ and ‘intolerant’. The ‘religious left’ is teaching that everyone is equal in the eyes of God, how exactly is that ‘narrow’ or ‘intolerant’? The ‘religious left’ is teaching that no sexual orientation is superior to any other, how is that narrow or intolerant? The religious left is not arguing that heterosexuals should live celibately their entire lives, be barred from marriage, ordination, or any civil rights, but rather, that all of liberties heterosexuals have should also, must also be available to homosexuals, as the expression of ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ – how is that narrow or intolerant?

      Oh, sure, it is intolerant of prejudice and injustice, but then, so was/is Jesus.

      I think you are upset because the ‘religious left’ is behaving more like Christ than you and your peers are.

      • ucfengr

        Setting aside the particular arguements about what the Bible says about homosexuality. There are prominant theologians on both sides of the debate, and in any case, I’m Catholic, so I don’t accept the doctrine of “sola scriptura”.

        The “narrrowly dogmatic” and “intolerant” points refer to your desire to read an anathema to Christians who hold to the definition of marriage or views on human sexuality that have stood for roughly 99% of Church history. I agree with most of your points, but where I disagree is that we show Christ’s love by telling people to embrace their sin. Homosexuality is a disordered sexual desire. It’s no worse than any other disordered desire, or for that matter, any sin, and I think too many Christians forget that (we’re very good at hating sin, but sometimes not so good at loving sinners). The Church (big “C” or small “c”) has always taught conjugal unions, with their potential for creating new life, are unique and probably do merit special treatment under the law. How other types of relationships should be recognized is worthy of debate, but that should not infringe on the uniqueness of Marriage.

        • WilmRoget

          “Setting aside the particular arguements about what the Bible says about homosexuality.”

          So the overt destruction of real human beings through corrective rape, hate crimes, execution and murder, which arise directly from the belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ are not worth your time, eh?

          “The “narrrowly dogmatic” and “intolerant” points refer to your desire to read an anathema to Christians who hold to the definition of marriage or views on human sexuality that have stood for roughly 99% of Church history. ”

          Nice fantasy there, creating to revile me without evidence. So sinful on your part, just to avoid answering the questions. Further your claims regarding ‘church history’ are inaccurate, by accident or on purpose.

          Now about this: ” to read an anathema to” –

          Guess what? That is exactly what you did when you asserted, out of malice, ” Homosexuality is a disordered sexual desire.”. So what you are arguing here is that it is wrong for me to rebuke those who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’, even though that belief produces death and rape and persecution, but it is ok for you to rebuke homosexuals, to slander them, to incite death and rape and destruction upon them.

          One of the consistent themes I’ve witnessed across the internet, in nearly 30 years of debating, discussing, arguing about anti-gay theology, is this prideful, arrogant, selfish insistence on the part of people who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’ that they are not to be rebuked, above criticism, victims when challenged, persecuted when they are told not to harm other people. It demonstrates the sin of pride, the sinful presumption that because you are heterosexual, and Catholic, you are superior to others, exempt from rebuke or criticism, while free to unload at will on others even though your condemnation results in rape and murder and torture.

          Further, your appeal to tradition is fallacy, and remember, tradition long held that slavery was God’s will, that racism was God’s will, that torture was an appropriate way to convert Jews to Christianity, that the oppression of women – oh that’s right, as a Catholic you still think that is God’s will. Of course, when Paul said that in Christ there is no male or female, all rules and theology based on and enforcing that distinction were revealed to be un-Christian, against Christ, external to and at war with Christ.

          ” Homosexuality is a disordered sexual desire. ”

          Nice hate speech there. That idea produces only evil fruit, people are raped as the direct result of that belief. Do you get that way up there on your high-horse? Men and women, children and teens and adults, are raped to “cure” them of their “disordered sexual desire”. Your denomination, the RCC, used to torture homosexuals to cure/punish them for their “disordered sexual desire”.

          “The Church (big “C” or small “c”) has always taught conjugal unions, with their potential for creating new life, are unique and probably do merit special treatment under the law.”

          Your fabrication of history is dishonest. Why is it so hard for people like you, who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’, to tell the truth about things?

          “do merit special treatment under the law. ”

          Now the Bible states that favoritism is wrong, proclaiming that those who show favoritism, as you are advocating, are lawbreakers:

          “8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” James 2.

          So how do you reconcile your justification for injustice and favoritism, with this clear condemnation of such behavior? Let me guess – you’ll respond with another diversion based on tradition and the contorted theology of a denomination that facilitated sexual predators, of every kind, for generations, one that used torture and genocide to increase its political power and material wealth.

          You teach evil, ucfengr, people are murdered as the direct and intentional expression of the belief you teach. You are responsible.

          • ucfengr

            Thanks for making my point there buddy. Teaching evil and causing people to commit murder for holding to traditional church teaching on human sexuality and marriage? Yeah, that’s tolerant…….

          • WilmRoget

            Your incompetence and egotism is not helping you.

            The hard reality is that the belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ absolutely results in murder and rape.

            What kind of human being, much less what kind of Christian, tolerates murder and rape?

            You accuse me of intolerance, but you so tolerate the murder and rape of homosexuals that you dismiss it as irrelevant.

            Jesus was clear in Matthew 25:31-46 – what we fail to do for those who are oppressed, we fail to do for Him. You fail to even give a d*mm. And so you do that to Jesus as well.

            I have an idea. Why don’t you demonstrate some real integrity, and make an honest effort to address the issues I raised? After all, I do so for your posts.

            You can let me guess why you don’t. You probably won’t like my educated guess. So demonstrate that your participation here is not just an exercise in ego-gratification at the expense of others, show me that you are sincerely trying to follow Jesus Christ,

            address the issues I raised honestly.

          • ucfengr

            Does the belief that things other than homosexuality are sinful also “absolutely result in murder and rape” too, or is it just homosexuality? For example, does believing that murder and rape are sinful “absolutely result in murder and rape”?

            Seriously though, it’s difficult for me to want to address the issues you raised because they mostly assume that by disagreeing with you I’m a hate filled bigot who’s tolerant of murder and rape, oh, and the obligatory, by the numbers, bit of Catholic bashing. It’s also a bit hard to take you seriously when you question what traditional Church teaching on marriage is. Arguing that the teaching is wrong is a debatable point, arguing that it isn’t what it is, isn’t.

            I would point out that if you have an eternal perspective on life, teaching someone that their sin isn’t a sin isn’t loving or compassionate. It’s actually downright hateful.

          • WilmRoget

            “”Does the belief that things other than homosexuality are sinful also “absolutely result in murder and rape” too, or is it just homosexuality? For example, does believing that murder and rape are sinful “absolutely result in murder and rape”?”

            It is sad that people like yourself rely on attempting to discredit Jesus’ own words to make their sin seem innocent.

            But all you are doing is demonstrating how little you value Christ, and how little you value human lives.

            “because they mostly assume that by disagreeing with you I’m a hate filled bigot”

            And again, your dishonesty and attempt to revile me does not help you, and in fact, demonstrates that the very accusation you seek to deny, is in fact true.

            The issue is not ‘disagree with me’, but the fact that you slander hundreds of millions of people. You are, after all, the one who reviled my life, and that of hundreds of millions of people, with the vile assertion: “Homosexuality is a disordered sexual desire.”

            And rather than address the very real fact that people have been raped and murdered as the direct expression of that, you trivialize those deaths and rapes.

            “It’s also a bit hard to take you seriously when you question what traditional Church teaching on marriage is.”

            Oh be honest, you don’t take any challenge to your hate speech about GLBTQ people seriously. So you make up frauds like the accusation above.

            But more importantly, why should anyone take you seriously, when you slander hundreds of millions of people with hate speech like “Homosexuality is a disordered sexual desire.” And then to make yourself even less a serious participant, you dismiss your slander as ‘disagreement’.

            “I would point out that if you have an eternal perspective on life, teaching someone that their sin isn’t a sin isn’t loving or compassionate. It’s actually downright hateful.”

            Since homosexuality is not a sin, you have no point, but, you have also convincted yourself for your rebukes of me – for you are sinning against God, and against humanity.

            But the argument you are attempting to make is truly ugly – for you are arguing that it is loving to murder, rape and torture homosexuals, to brutalize them into obeying you, and that it is hateful to defend them from such abuse.

            Though you may truly be unable to see how obscene that is, every day more and more people do understand.

          • ucfengr

            You’re reading things into my comments that I didn’t make. In any case, I was responding to the author, not you. He’s the one who said that you can’t follow Christ unless you support “same-sex marriage”, something that contradicts a couple thousand years of Church teaching on marriage. You, obviously are not able to discuss this issue objectively, so I bid you adieu.

          • WilmRoget

            “You’re reading things into my comments that I didn’t make.”

            Nope.

            “He’s the one who said that you can’t follow Christ unless you support “same-sex marriage”,”

            And he is correct. Well, there is a way around it – forbid mixed sex marriage too. But if one supports mixed sex marriage, one must also support same-sex marriage, to follow Christ’s command ‘love your neighbor as yourself’.

            ” something that contradicts a couple thousand years of Church teaching on marriage.”

            Thank you for pointing out that the RCC has been disobeying Jesus for about 1300 years. Of course you exaggerated the extent of that sin, since even the RCC allowed same-sex marriage for awhile.

            “You, obviously are not able to discuss this issue objectively,”

            Your false accusation ends up being self descriptive.

            ” so I bid you adieu.”

            I wonder if you will be able to live up to that, so many who make the dramatic, insulting exit, fail. Personally, I think you are pulling this stunt to get out of addressing the material I presented, which includes the RCC’s tradition of torturing and murdering people to enforce its religious beliefs.

            Well, if you don’t want to discuss the Cathars and how that history reflects on appeals to Catholic tradition, how about the Tutsi

            “After World War II, the influence of the White Fathers Order diminished as a new wave of young Papal missionaries came over from Belgian seminaries. They brought with them ‘social justice’ theories that
            were now being developed by the Vatican to promote RC influence in third world counties. These mostly Flemish priests identified with the by-now oppressed Hutu majority, took up their cause, and gradually forced the Tutsis to relinquish their grip on the country. One result
            was a Hutu uprising in 1959 which led to 10,000 Tutsis being killed and over 100,00 being driven abroad.

            Three years later, Gregoire Kayibanda, Secretary to Monsignor Vincent Nsengiyuma, Rwanda’s Archbishop, became first President of an independent Rwanda, having earlier founded the racial supremacist
            ‘Parme Hutu’ party. Now the Tutsi were seen by RC thinkers as ‘invaders’ from Ethiopia and the RC Church orchestrated calls for the Tutsi to be ‘sent back home’.

            Tutsi ‘cockroaches’
            A notable event was the disgraceful letter sent in 1972 to the Archbishop by a group of eleven Hutu RC priests and religious leaders, referring to the Tutsi as ‘inyensi’ (cock-roaches) – a word used frequently by Hutu killers in 1994. Referring to the 1959 massacres, the letter read: “After the defeat of the counter-revolutionaries, theinyenzi, one would have thought that reasonable people, consecrated to God’s service, would bow down before the irreversible victory of the people. The Hutu seem to have fallen asleep on the laurels of victory
            while the Tutsis are working very hard in order to again become masters of events. How long can we allow our Tutsi brothers to make fools of us?” One of the letter’s authors, Andre Havugimana, later rose to
            high office in the Rwandan RC Church.

            The year following that letter, the RC Church publicly endorsed the purge of Tutsis from schools, colleges and the civil service. Abuses and occasional massacres of Tutsis were the inevitable result of this persecution. In 1992, Hassan Ngeze, a journalist working for the
            extremist Hutu party, published a Hutu manifesto, titled ‘The Hutu Ten Commandments’. Commandment No. 8 was “Stop having mercy on the Tutsis”.

            http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=genocide

            “the RC Church publicly endorsed the purge of Tutsis from schools, colleges and the civil service.”

            I know you’ve bid adieu, but, c’mon back, let’s talk about the RCC’s endorsement of the purging of Tutsis in Rwanda, so you can show me how Catholic Tradition is a good measure of right and wrong.

          • WilmRoget

            “and the obligatory, by the numbers, bit of Catholic bashing.”

            Ah, there’s that hypocrisy and selfishness again. You’ve licenses yourself to slander GLBTQ people, but when I accurately point out a sliver, a sliver mind you, of the wrongs committed by the Roman Catholic Church, that becomes ‘Catholic bashing’.

            Let’s talk about the Cathars and Cathar bashing.

            “The Cathars were a direct challenge to the Catholic Church, which denounced its practices and dismissed it outright as “the Church of Satan”.[3]

            The crusader army came under the command, both spiritually and militarily, of the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Cîteaux. In the first significant engagement of the war, the town of Béziers was besieged on 22 July 1209. The Catholic inhabitants of the city were granted the freedom to leave unharmed, but many refused and opted to stay and fight alongside the Cathars.

            The Cathars spent much of 1209 fending off the crusaders. The Béziers army attempted a sortie
            but was quickly defeated, then pursued by the crusaders back through the gates and into the city. Arnaud-Amaury, the Cistercian abbot-commander, is supposed to have been asked how to tell Cathars from Catholics. His reply, recalled by Caesar of Heisterbach, a fellow Cistercian, thirty years later was “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.”—”Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own.”[54][55] The doors of the church of St Mary Magdalene were broken down and the refugees dragged out and slaughtered. Reportedly, 7,000 people died
            there. Elsewhere in the town many more thousands were mutilated and killed. Prisoners were blinded, dragged behind horses, and used for target practice.[56] What remained of the city was razed by fire. Arnaud-Amaury wrote to Pope Innocent III, “Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex.”[57][58]The permanent population of Béziers at that time was then probably no more than 5,000, but local refugees seeking shelter within the city walls could conceivably have increased the number to 20,000.

            After the success of his siege of Carcassonne, which followed the Massacre at Béziers in 1209, Simon de Montfort was designated as leader of the Crusader army. Prominent opponents of the Crusaders were Raymond Roger Trencavel, viscount of Carcassonne, and his feudal overlord Peter II, the king of Aragon, who held fiefdoms and had a number of vassals in the region. Peter died fighting against the crusade on 12 September 1213 at the Battle of Muret. Simon de Montfort was killed on 25 June 1218 after maintaining a siege of Toulouse for nine months.[59]

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

            That is just another sliver of Roman Catholic History. To hold that back from you, would you in your own words, be ‘downright hateful’.

            “he war ended in the Treaty of Paris (1229), by which the king of France dispossessed the house of Toulouse of the greater part of its fiefs, and that of the Trencavels (Viscounts of Béziers and Carcassonne) of the whole of their fiefs. The independence of the princes of the Languedoc was at an end. But in spite of the wholesale massacre of Cathars during the war, Catharism was not
            yet extinguished.

            In 1215, the bishops of the Catholic Church met at the Fourth Council of the Lateran under Pope Innocent III; part of the agenda was combating the Cathar heresy.[60]

            The Inquisition was established in 1234 to uproot the remaining Cathars.[61] Operating in the south at Toulouse, Albi, Carcassonne and other towns during the whole of the 13th century, and a great part of the 14th, it succeeded in crushing Catharism as a popular movement and driving its remaining adherents underground.[61] Cathars who refused to recant were hanged, or burnt at the stake.[62]

            From May 1243 to March 1244, the Cathar fortress of Montségur was besieged by the troops of the seneschal of Carcassonne and the archbishop of Narbonne.[63] On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, where over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous pyre at the prat dels cremats (“field of the burned”) near the foot of the castle.[63] Moreover, the Church decreed lesser chastisements against laymen suspected of sympathy with Cathars, at the 1235 Council of Narbonne.[64]”

            I’m sorry but your appeals to the traditions of a denomination that has made genocide and torture traditional, are not compelling.

          • WilmRoget

            I am still hoping against hope that you will attempt to address the issues I raised honestly.

        • WilmRoget

          Now, ucfengr, I’d like you to explain something. You made a wholly unsubstantiated accusation “it highlights how narrowly dogmatic and intolerant the “religious left” has become.”

          I asked you a series of questions to prod you into providing evidence to support that accusation. You did not address any of them. Instead you made a false and sinful accusation about me, that frankly, turned out to be hypocritical as well.

          Why did you take this sinful, rude, and frankly, useless approach? You made a claim, don’t you have evidence, real evidence, to back it up? Do you want people to conclude that you were simply slandering millions of Christians?

  • WilmRoget

    Mark, regarding number 6, “Be quiet when people are marginalized and bullied.”

    Another passage you might consider using in the future, that makes a more precisely relevant argument, is the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46), the crux of which is:

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    and

    44 “They (those on the left) also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    People who do nothing to end oppression (of GLBTQ people, or the poor, or political refugees, or any oppressed people) do that same nothing for Christ. Those who fight to end any oppression, whether it is the ban on same-sex marriage, food insecurity, or FGM, or wage inequity, or racial prejudice, etc, do those things for Christ.

  • http://thethoughtsofbige.blogspot.com/ Big.E

    1) Of course. As cliché as it may sound, loving the sinner
    and hating the sin is what we are to do. That would include ourselves as there is NO one without sin other than Jesus when He was with us.

    2.) The term “Same Sex Marriage” is an oxymoron as it has always meant the union of a man and woman. That IS the meaning. We can’t just change definitions to suit our desires.

    While Gideon and Solomon may have had multiple wives, it is
    never condoned. I Kings 11:4: “For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.” Solomon
    lost his relationship with God due to his many wives, 700, and 300 concubines.

    Just as with divorce, it was tolerated (Deut. 24:1; Matt.19:3-8).

    A man can love a man. That does not require having sex.

    3) Ummmm, you’ll need to fill in some more details. This group, that group, etc to someone that isn’t familiar with the issue will not help. It is definitely not very
    searchable.

    “Who would Jesus discriminate against?”

    Good question. He will be sitting as judge over all of mankind, separating the “wheat” from the “chaff.” In other words, discriminating against those that turn away the free gift of grace. You can’t accept grace to cover your sin if you try to argue it is no longer sin.

    I do as Jesus instructed and offer you the good news of His
    free gift to you. Now, “go and do likewise.”

    4) See answer to the 1st statement.

    Those signs mostly originate from an organization that has become a cult and follow the teachings of ONE pastor over the WORD.

    The modern-day concept of “homosexual” is an old concept that is as old as the practice. It is Biblical in that the Bible call it an abomination. It is unnatural in that we were not designed for this type of relationship.

    When God decided on a suitable helper for man, He created woman – Gen. 2: 24 -“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” As opposed to Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV) “For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”

    This is not a subject that requires much repeating. However, there is enough to make the point.

    5) We are all sinners. Some are tormented by lust, and that has many tangents. There is sin and lust is one of them. Sin puts separation between us and God. When we choose to give into our unclean desires, we turn away from God. It may be momentary, but with practice it will lead you further away.

    “In my book, these are people who could teach us a crazy amount about forgiveness, love and grace.” You need acknowledge the sin before it can be forgiven.

    6) Once again, we are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. None should be bullied for their shortcomings, but encouraged that they can be freed of that burden.

    7) We are not sinners by choice, but we are all sinners. God did not design us to be sinners, but sin entered the world by turning away from God. A large percentage of homosexual males have reported their first encounters were molestation, though the number of those influenced by other societal factors is increasing.

    8) It’s not “okay” to be a sinner, but we all are.

    9) Gay conversion therapy is just another name for not giving in to sin. Lust is the sin and giving into it is a behavior we need to avoid.

    I walk down the street.

    There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.

    I fall in.

    I am lost… I am helpless.

    It isn’t my fault.

    It takes forever to find a way out.

    I walk down the same street.

    There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.

    I pretend I don’t see it.

    I fall in again.

    I can’t believe I am in the same place.

    But, it isn’t my fault.

    It still takes me a long time to get out.

    I walk down the same street.

    There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.

    I see it is there.

    I still fall in. It’s a habit.

    My eyes are open.

    I know where I am.

    It is my fault. I get out immediately.

    I walk down the same street.

    There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.

    I walk around it.

    I walk down another street.”

    ― Portia Nelson, There’s a Hole in My Sidewalk: The Romance of
    Self-Discovery

    10) The gay agenda is trying to say that a particular sin is no longer a sin, rather than dealing with it.

    People that identify themselves proudly based on the lust that they have given into need our love and understanding.

    I love all my friends and pray for them. That includes my friends that refer to
    themselves as “gay.”

    • WilmRoget

      “Of course. As cliché as it may sound, loving the sinner
      and hating the sin is what we are to do.”

      Of course, that cliche’ is not Biblical. And when the thing you hate as sin is someone’s innate ability for love and intimacy, ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ is an irrational lie.

      Actually, it is a lie and a fraud all the time. The proof of that lies in the anger that homophobes manifest when ever their sin of prejudice is rebuked, the way they claim that they are being persecuted when they are told that their belief destroys other human beings.

      “The term “Same Sex Marriage” is an oxymoron”

      Nope.

      ” as it has always meant the union of a man and woman.”

      Not on Earth it has not. Perhaps in some alternative universe, or some undiscovered planet, but marriage has had many forms in human history, including same-sex couples.

      “Evidence exists that same-sex marriages were tolerated in parts of Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Artifacts from Egypt, for example, show that same-sex relationships not only existed, but the discovery of a pharaonic tomb for such a couple shows their union was recognized by the kingdom.

      Roman social customs are relatively well known, and same-sex unions existed as high in society as among Roman emperors. Roman statesman Cicero also documented legal rights of an individual within a same-sex marriage. Female same-sex unions seemed to have been less common, but only because women enjoyed less freedom in their economic and social endeavors (Eskridge).

      http://www.randomhistory.com/history-of-gay-marriage.html

      Further, your appeal to ‘that’s the way it has always been’, besides being inaccurate, is illogical and frankly, makes you a hypocrite as you post here using computers that have only existed for less than a hundred years, on an internet that is even younger. And you do so in a language, Modern English, that developed in the 17th-18th century. If you are posting from the U.S., you do so from a country that is less than 250 years old.

      For most of human history ‘always meant’ did not include electric appliances or devices of any kind.

      “That IS the meaning.”

      No, it is not.

      “We can’t just change definitions to suit our desires.”

      So you should stop, although the truth about language is that it is driven by ‘our desires’ – what we desire to communicate.

      “A man can love a man. That does not require having sex.”

      A man can love a woman. That does not require having sex. So by your argument, heterosexuality is sin, wrong, forbidden, and mixed sex marriage should not be allowed. Otherwise, you are saying that a man cannot love a woman unless he has sex with her.

      ” In other words, discriminating against those that turn away the free gift of grace.”

      So Jesus will discriminate against those who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’.

    • WilmRoget

      “When God decided on a suitable helper for man, He created woman”

      No. First, when God noticed that Adam needed a companion, God sent all of the animals, male and female, to Adam. Adam’s need was not met, so God made a suitable helper for Adam, and that suitable helper was Eve, a woman. That does not mean that the suitable helper for all men are women.

      The suitable helper for a gay man is another gay man. The suitable helper for a lesbian is another lesbian.

      ” As opposed to Romans 1:26-27″

      Nice fraud, ripping these two passages out of context like that, ignoring the explicit description of idolatry. It is terrible how defenders of ‘homosexuality is sin’ consistently rely on fraud, which is sin.

      Further, Paul uses the term ‘physikos chresis’, describing people who abandon their ‘physikos chresis’ of the opposite gender, as part of their practice of idolatry. “Physikos chresis” means innate, instinctive, inborn sexual use of, so Paul is talking about people who have an innate, inborn, instinctive sexual use of the opposite gender.

      Guess who that is? One guess. I know you can get it right.

      Heterosexuals. Paul is writing about heterosexual participants in idolatry, not homosexuals. Homosexuals do not have a physikos chresis toward the opposite gender, so they cannot abandon it.

      Now, let’s back track just a bit. You brought up Adam and Eve, the famous heterosexual couple responsible for bringing sin into the world. And Genesis 3 tells us that the very first curse placed on humans by God explicitly targets the fruit of heterosexual intercourse. Genesis 6 has another heterosexual dynamic, the ‘sons of God’ having intercourse with human women who gave birth to tyrants, or giants in some translations, making the world so evil that God sent the Flood. In fact, heterosexual intercourse is contaminated so much that Jesus had to be born of a virgin. And then Paul tells us about some heterosexuals who abandon their innate sexual orientation to make an idol happy.

      The Bible has more than three hundred passages that explicitly condemn expressions of heterosexual sexuality. It is not reasonable to conclude that God prefers heterosexuals.

      “There is sin and lust is one of them.”

      Lust is not a synonym for sexual desire, it refers to any destructive, excessive, abusive expression of any desire. Homophobes, for example, have a lust for power over other people, a lust to control and dominate, a lust to feel superior.

      ” We are all sinners.”

      And thus you have no business rebuking homosexuals for something that simply is not sin, especially when that rebuke is itself a manifestation, on your part, of the sin of pride. You and your peers have more than enough sin in your own lives to work on to prevent you from ever having a spare moment to think about the mote you perceive in the eyes, lives, of GLBTQ people.

      “When we choose to give into our unclean desires, we turn away from God.”

      And the desire to revile homosexuals, which you and your peers choose to give into, is an unclean desire, by giving in to that desire you turn away from God.

      ” A large percentage of homosexual males have reported their first encounters were molestation,”

      No. Your claim is flat out false. But, interestingly enough, many women report that heterosexual molestation, of all kinds, make up the majority of their sexual experiences – from verbal molestation, to physical molestation. Rape was a traditional way of creating a heterosexual marriage in many cultures, includes western ones. Until nearly the end of the 20th century, it was legal for a husband to rape his wife. The sad thing is that heterosexual males account for a disproportionate majority of all sexual abuse.

      ” though the number of those influenced by other societal factors is increasing.”

      Absolutely not. The truth is that the growing body of evidence points consistently to biological causes for homosexuality.

      http://evolequals.com/2012/09/04/sexual-orientation-is-developed-in-the-womb/

    • WilmRoget

      ” Gay conversion therapy is just another name for not giving in to sin.”

      No. Gay conversion therapy is a repudiated quackery that destroys human lives. It is an attempt to coerce people into abandoning their physikos chresis to appease the idol ‘heterosexism’.

      Characterizing my loving relationship as ‘a deep hole’ is simply vile and hateful. Further, your argument is just a likely to describe heterosexuality. After all, heterosexuality is constantly, consistently taught, preached, proclaimed, indoctrinated onto generation after generation, using coercion and promises of imprisonment, execution, torture, ostracism, to produce compliance.

      “The gay agenda is trying to say that a particular sin is no longer a sin, rather than dealing with it.”

      Your false accusation only reveals you to be a congenitally dishonest person.

      “I love all my friends and pray for them.”

      Well, you prey on them, that much is evident.

  • Lee Ebbs

    What a huge bunch of lies. This man is not a Christian and is delusional. He does not understand the Bible.

    • WilmRoget

      Your insults are sin. Particularly the charge ‘delusional’, which is an equivalent to calling someone a ‘fool’, which Jesus said puts you in danger of the fires of hell.

      • Lee Ebbs

        Stop lying. Stop cherry picking minute passages from God’s Word and then applying your sinful belief system to it. That is “eisegesis” when you should be practicing biblical exegesis. It is not a sin to expose false teachers, see Romans 16:17-18 and Ephesians 5:11 among many other examples and commands from God to expose those that call good evil and evil good (Isaiah 5:20). Further, you are sadly (but typically) mistaken about what Jesus said in Matthew 5:22 as it is clear that Jesus was talking about speaking to a “brother” and not to false teachers, so go read that whole passage again and then go read what Jesus Himself said to the false teachers of His day in Matthew 23:17 where He calls them fools! Now, did He contradict Himself? No! Seek Jesus as only He can open your blinded eyes and save your soul.

        • Lee Ebbs

          Matthew 23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[d] the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? ~Jesus Christ