<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Is Ethical Buying the New Legalism? part 1</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/</link>
	<description>Kurt Willems&#039; Blog at Patheos</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 06:44:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Is Ethical Buying the New Legalism? part 2 &#124; Pangea</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-497</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Ethical Buying the New Legalism? part 2 &#124; Pangea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 02:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-497</guid>
		<description>[...]        &#8592; Is Ethical Buying the New Legalism? part&#160;1 Love Your Enemies&#8230; An Ethical&#160;Exhortation [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]        &larr; Is Ethical Buying the New Legalism? part&nbsp;1 Love Your Enemies&#8230; An Ethical&nbsp;Exhortation [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kurt Willems</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-496</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Willems</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 23:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-496</guid>
		<description>Amy, thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I think that I might have one rebuttal:

If God always looks at the heart... where does sin come in?  In other words, just because I think that smoking pot is ok because my heart is in love with Jesus, does that make it right or good?  Scripture seems to lend itself to the belief that anything that takes over your mind or self control is wrong.  The bible also teaches that anything we can do to treat others with the love of Christ, we ought to do as well.

The bible is flooded with examples of economic practices that oppress the poor.  Check out this passage in the book of Amos 8...



&lt;blockquote&gt;4 Listen to this, you who rob the poor
      and trample down the needy!
 5 You can’t wait for the Sabbath day to be over
      and the religious festivals to end
      so you can get back to cheating the helpless.
   You measure out grain with dishonest measures
      and cheat the buyer with dishonest scales.
 6 And you mix the grain you sell
      with chaff swept from the floor.
   Then you enslave poor people
      for one piece of silver or a pair of sandals. Amos 8.4-6&lt;/blockquote&gt;



If what you buy is aiding in the oppression of the poor, is this not a sin issue that transcends the heart in some ways?  Now, this is not to say that we can ever fully escape such tensions (between living in an unjust society and having to make a purchase), but to simply point out that sin issues (whatever they may be) are not always about my individual heart... they are also about how my actions affect another person or group of people.  God hates oppression so if what we do causes this, I think we ought realign our heart and our actions to honor God.  Does this make any sense to ya?

Please don&#039;t read this as a defense or an angry critique (its not!) but simply a push to dig a bit deeper on these issues.  Any thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amy, thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I think that I might have one rebuttal:</p>
<p>If God always looks at the heart&#8230; where does sin come in?  In other words, just because I think that smoking pot is ok because my heart is in love with Jesus, does that make it right or good?  Scripture seems to lend itself to the belief that anything that takes over your mind or self control is wrong.  The bible also teaches that anything we can do to treat others with the love of Christ, we ought to do as well.</p>
<p>The bible is flooded with examples of economic practices that oppress the poor.  Check out this passage in the book of Amos 8&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>4 Listen to this, you who rob the poor<br />
      and trample down the needy!<br />
 5 You can’t wait for the Sabbath day to be over<br />
      and the religious festivals to end<br />
      so you can get back to cheating the helpless.<br />
   You measure out grain with dishonest measures<br />
      and cheat the buyer with dishonest scales.<br />
 6 And you mix the grain you sell<br />
      with chaff swept from the floor.<br />
   Then you enslave poor people<br />
      for one piece of silver or a pair of sandals. Amos 8.4-6</p></blockquote>
<p>If what you buy is aiding in the oppression of the poor, is this not a sin issue that transcends the heart in some ways?  Now, this is not to say that we can ever fully escape such tensions (between living in an unjust society and having to make a purchase), but to simply point out that sin issues (whatever they may be) are not always about my individual heart&#8230; they are also about how my actions affect another person or group of people.  God hates oppression so if what we do causes this, I think we ought realign our heart and our actions to honor God.  Does this make any sense to ya?</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t read this as a defense or an angry critique (its not!) but simply a push to dig a bit deeper on these issues.  Any thoughts?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-495</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-495</guid>
		<description>I couldn&#039;t get through all of the comments...too many.  My first reaction to the overall topic is this: I don&#039;t think God cares what kind of food we are buying fair trade/organic/free range or shopping at Walmart.  He is always...ALWAYS looking at the heart.  If God has brought conviction on you, and the way you shop, then obey him.  It is evident that this is an area he is working on specifically in you.  However, your salvation and his love for you are not contingent upon where you buy your food.

I think we spend way too much time trying to work out our salvation in our own human endeavors.  Rather, we should be seeking God always, allowing his Holy Spirit to work in our lives, and then obey.  It is so simple...and yet so hard.

Do I think what you are doing is wrong?  Absolutely not.  It is a very good and noble thing.  However, it&#039;s not going to make God love you more, or move you higher up the ladder of Christian success.

Humble obedience and trust is all God asks of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn&#8217;t get through all of the comments&#8230;too many.  My first reaction to the overall topic is this: I don&#8217;t think God cares what kind of food we are buying fair trade/organic/free range or shopping at Walmart.  He is always&#8230;ALWAYS looking at the heart.  If God has brought conviction on you, and the way you shop, then obey him.  It is evident that this is an area he is working on specifically in you.  However, your salvation and his love for you are not contingent upon where you buy your food.</p>
<p>I think we spend way too much time trying to work out our salvation in our own human endeavors.  Rather, we should be seeking God always, allowing his Holy Spirit to work in our lives, and then obey.  It is so simple&#8230;and yet so hard.</p>
<p>Do I think what you are doing is wrong?  Absolutely not.  It is a very good and noble thing.  However, it&#8217;s not going to make God love you more, or move you higher up the ladder of Christian success.</p>
<p>Humble obedience and trust is all God asks of us.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Moriah</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-494</link>
		<dc:creator>Moriah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-494</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure a load of self-serving capitalism-worshipping morons would love for us to view ethical consumerism as the &quot;new legalism&quot; so that we would give up on making responsible choices and join the rest of the piggies at the slop trough snuffling and snorting up resources without a care as to what we are actually supporting. Bottom line: anything can be turned into an occasion for self-glorifying comparisons and passing judgments on others, but it is the acts of comparing and passing judgments and pride which are the sin there, not the good things we do which we might be tempted to misuse that way. To state that ethical consumerism is the new legalism and therefore we ought to just forget about trying to make conscious and responsible consumer choices is like saying actually prosecuting rapists as criminals is being legalistic and prideful, therefore we should all become rapists ourselves instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure a load of self-serving capitalism-worshipping morons would love for us to view ethical consumerism as the &#8220;new legalism&#8221; so that we would give up on making responsible choices and join the rest of the piggies at the slop trough snuffling and snorting up resources without a care as to what we are actually supporting. Bottom line: anything can be turned into an occasion for self-glorifying comparisons and passing judgments on others, but it is the acts of comparing and passing judgments and pride which are the sin there, not the good things we do which we might be tempted to misuse that way. To state that ethical consumerism is the new legalism and therefore we ought to just forget about trying to make conscious and responsible consumer choices is like saying actually prosecuting rapists as criminals is being legalistic and prideful, therefore we should all become rapists ourselves instead.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: churchedunchurched</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-493</link>
		<dc:creator>churchedunchurched</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-493</guid>
		<description>Hey Kurt! Thanks for the invite, bro. I really like your challenge, and I think it&#039;s got a good heart behind it. It&#039;s true that whenever we make a &quot;standard&quot; of ethical behavior, that it can become a true hindrance to loving God or our neighbor.

What I would pose, just as I&#039;m thinking about it, is that ethical standards are there for benefit of all, not for judgment of any.

For example, if I find myself judging people for shopping at WalMart, I need to consider how they would know otherwise and whether I&#039;m making people aware of it in some way. It&#039;s important to me, so I need to do something about it, not spend my energy keeping people from doing it too, energy that I could spend positively instead.  And if you&#039;re limited (like store options), how could you do any better?

Beyond individual limits, there are also other areas of involvement. We&#039;re talking about political involvement, community work, conservation, etc. And that can be a lot, or too much, or the only other options.

But if I don&#039;t find myself evaluating how I behave, so that I could be harming people and not caring about that harm, then I have traversed to the reverse, and my resources are not benefiting anyone but me. Selfishness should never be an excuse to avoid legalism.

My point is, I guess: We don&#039;t have to do everything, but there&#039;s always some amount we can do without feeling a burden. We aren&#039;t perfect, and people were made to work together. There is always something to contribute, and there&#039;s always a chance to love your neighbor.

Most times I think process is more foundational than product. Good challenge!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Kurt! Thanks for the invite, bro. I really like your challenge, and I think it&#8217;s got a good heart behind it. It&#8217;s true that whenever we make a &#8220;standard&#8221; of ethical behavior, that it can become a true hindrance to loving God or our neighbor.</p>
<p>What I would pose, just as I&#8217;m thinking about it, is that ethical standards are there for benefit of all, not for judgment of any.</p>
<p>For example, if I find myself judging people for shopping at WalMart, I need to consider how they would know otherwise and whether I&#8217;m making people aware of it in some way. It&#8217;s important to me, so I need to do something about it, not spend my energy keeping people from doing it too, energy that I could spend positively instead.  And if you&#8217;re limited (like store options), how could you do any better?</p>
<p>Beyond individual limits, there are also other areas of involvement. We&#8217;re talking about political involvement, community work, conservation, etc. And that can be a lot, or too much, or the only other options.</p>
<p>But if I don&#8217;t find myself evaluating how I behave, so that I could be harming people and not caring about that harm, then I have traversed to the reverse, and my resources are not benefiting anyone but me. Selfishness should never be an excuse to avoid legalism.</p>
<p>My point is, I guess: We don&#8217;t have to do everything, but there&#8217;s always some amount we can do without feeling a burden. We aren&#8217;t perfect, and people were made to work together. There is always something to contribute, and there&#8217;s always a chance to love your neighbor.</p>
<p>Most times I think process is more foundational than product. Good challenge!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Is Ethical Buying the New Legalism? part 2 &#171; Groans From Within</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-492</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Ethical Buying the New Legalism? part 2 &#171; Groans From Within</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-492</guid>
		<description>[...] Social Justice, social responsibility, whole foods    It has been about a week since I did a post about the dilemma between purchasing ethically and becoming a new kind of legalist. I want to draw some attention to an idea that came through a few of the comments that were shared [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Social Justice, social responsibility, whole foods    It has been about a week since I did a post about the dilemma between purchasing ethically and becoming a new kind of legalist. I want to draw some attention to an idea that came through a few of the comments that were shared [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lindsayraes</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-491</link>
		<dc:creator>lindsayraes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-491</guid>
		<description>Fascinating post. I was a Sociology major in college and I felt like we were constantly talking about the big bad evil companies that turn oppression into profit. Yet, what to do? Can I really manage only purchasing items that are produced ethically?

As I prayed about the how to live and purchase ethically, I felt the tugging of the Lord to keep my mind focused on the position of my heart. Is my heart moved toward justice enough to affect my actions? Or am I just talking the talk?

I don&#039;t think a black and white analysis of where my money goes matters as much as an honest look at the position of my heart. I think this is true in regards to ethical spending as well as every other way we can borderline on legalism. Legalism is the result of looking only at the tangible things, the results, and not the process or the position of the heart.

I want my heart to be transformed so I can honestly say &quot;I care about justice&quot; and really mean it, to the point that my actions fall into line with my words. I want to not get so caught up in the many problems in the world that I believe I can&#039;t make a difference. I want to be changed so that living justly and ethically is like breathing, not just a hurdle I am trying to overcome.

I am not there yet, but at I am trying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating post. I was a Sociology major in college and I felt like we were constantly talking about the big bad evil companies that turn oppression into profit. Yet, what to do? Can I really manage only purchasing items that are produced ethically?</p>
<p>As I prayed about the how to live and purchase ethically, I felt the tugging of the Lord to keep my mind focused on the position of my heart. Is my heart moved toward justice enough to affect my actions? Or am I just talking the talk?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think a black and white analysis of where my money goes matters as much as an honest look at the position of my heart. I think this is true in regards to ethical spending as well as every other way we can borderline on legalism. Legalism is the result of looking only at the tangible things, the results, and not the process or the position of the heart.</p>
<p>I want my heart to be transformed so I can honestly say &#8220;I care about justice&#8221; and really mean it, to the point that my actions fall into line with my words. I want to not get so caught up in the many problems in the world that I believe I can&#8217;t make a difference. I want to be changed so that living justly and ethically is like breathing, not just a hurdle I am trying to overcome.</p>
<p>I am not there yet, but at I am trying.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kurt Willems</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-490</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Willems</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-490</guid>
		<description>I am quite impressed with the thoughtful responses I see here, thus far.  I welcome more dialogue!!!!

Rather than post a comment here, I will probably use my next post as a &#039;response&#039; / pondering...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am quite impressed with the thoughtful responses I see here, thus far.  I welcome more dialogue!!!!</p>
<p>Rather than post a comment here, I will probably use my next post as a &#8216;response&#8217; / pondering&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-489</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-489</guid>
		<description>Daniel, your point about the human condition is well-taken, but as with most things this too can be taken too far.  It is true that, sans redemption, we can&#039;t expect redeemed behavior.  On the other hand, however, it is all too frequent that even those who claim redemption fail to grasp how the new life of Jesus should be lived out.  In this balance, perhaps the Jesus-inspired subset of the free- and fair-trade movements ought to direct its message largely at the churches.

Of course, here in America where the churches are often conservative politics&#039; biggest cheerleaders, this message has unquestionable political overtones. . .not because we should somehow reform the behavior of the secular world, but precisely because we are embedded in, and even at times apologists for, that world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, your point about the human condition is well-taken, but as with most things this too can be taken too far.  It is true that, sans redemption, we can&#8217;t expect redeemed behavior.  On the other hand, however, it is all too frequent that even those who claim redemption fail to grasp how the new life of Jesus should be lived out.  In this balance, perhaps the Jesus-inspired subset of the free- and fair-trade movements ought to direct its message largely at the churches.</p>
<p>Of course, here in America where the churches are often conservative politics&#8217; biggest cheerleaders, this message has unquestionable political overtones. . .not because we should somehow reform the behavior of the secular world, but precisely because we are embedded in, and even at times apologists for, that world.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/02/20/is-ethical-buying-the-new-legalism-part-1/#comment-488</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groansfromwithin.com/?p=293#comment-488</guid>
		<description>I resonate with many of the previous comments, (like the one that makes the point that any instance of taking the &quot;higher ground&quot; can veer into legalism...) but there is one question that doesn&#039;t seem to have come up yet, so I&#039;ll take a quick stab.

While I wouldn&#039;t call it &quot;legalism&quot;, maybe the subtle danger I see with much of the &quot;ethical buying movement&quot;, particularly as it relates to followers of Jesus, is that we can get so caught up in trying to avoid oppressive companies and products, that over time, we can almost subconsciously start to buy into the idea that we can change the nature of the human heart through our patterns of consumption.

It&#039;s easy to look at things like child labor, sweat shops, inequality, shoddy or unhealthy products, etc. as the real problems, when in reality, they are only symptoms of the deeper problem.  The true culprit is the fallen condition of the men and women who cumulatively make up all these global scenarios.  It&#039;s easy to think of issues as &quot;isms&quot; or causes, instead the aggregated effects of individual decisions made by people who are striving to propel their own interests on this earth.

Of course, that doesn&#039;t mean we shouldn&#039;t buy organic (cuz otherwise who knows what you&#039;re actually eating...) or make decisions to support companies that aren&#039;t blatantly doing wrong.  But like you already explained, at some point, it&#039;s easy to reach this stage where you are agonizing over every decision, every purchase, every thing you do in the modernized world, as if those decisions were the only thing that can make a difference.  This of course is how the World thinks, because it does not believe in the fallen nature of human beings.  In the world&#039;s eyes, everything really is a matter of systematic failure, which must have some sort of systematic solution.  It stands in stark contrast to the perspective of the gospel, which points a finger at the human heart first, calling men and women to repent, to forsake their earthly ambitions altogether, and seek a citizenship and inheritance that comes from above, which cannot be attained through any type of social action, or supported by any of the choices we find on the supermarket shelves...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I resonate with many of the previous comments, (like the one that makes the point that any instance of taking the &#8220;higher ground&#8221; can veer into legalism&#8230;) but there is one question that doesn&#8217;t seem to have come up yet, so I&#8217;ll take a quick stab.</p>
<p>While I wouldn&#8217;t call it &#8220;legalism&#8221;, maybe the subtle danger I see with much of the &#8220;ethical buying movement&#8221;, particularly as it relates to followers of Jesus, is that we can get so caught up in trying to avoid oppressive companies and products, that over time, we can almost subconsciously start to buy into the idea that we can change the nature of the human heart through our patterns of consumption.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to look at things like child labor, sweat shops, inequality, shoddy or unhealthy products, etc. as the real problems, when in reality, they are only symptoms of the deeper problem.  The true culprit is the fallen condition of the men and women who cumulatively make up all these global scenarios.  It&#8217;s easy to think of issues as &#8220;isms&#8221; or causes, instead the aggregated effects of individual decisions made by people who are striving to propel their own interests on this earth.</p>
<p>Of course, that doesn&#8217;t mean we shouldn&#8217;t buy organic (cuz otherwise who knows what you&#8217;re actually eating&#8230;) or make decisions to support companies that aren&#8217;t blatantly doing wrong.  But like you already explained, at some point, it&#8217;s easy to reach this stage where you are agonizing over every decision, every purchase, every thing you do in the modernized world, as if those decisions were the only thing that can make a difference.  This of course is how the World thinks, because it does not believe in the fallen nature of human beings.  In the world&#8217;s eyes, everything really is a matter of systematic failure, which must have some sort of systematic solution.  It stands in stark contrast to the perspective of the gospel, which points a finger at the human heart first, calling men and women to repent, to forsake their earthly ambitions altogether, and seek a citizenship and inheritance that comes from above, which cannot be attained through any type of social action, or supported by any of the choices we find on the supermarket shelves&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk: basic (User agent is rejected)
Page Caching using disk: enhanced (User agent is rejected)
Database Caching using disk: basic
Object Caching 380/404 objects using disk: basic
Content Delivery Network via Amazon Web Services: S3: wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com (user agent is rejected)

Served from: www.patheos.com @ 2012-02-04 10:00:49 -->
