Video Response: Natural Law, Gays, and the Church

Tony you bring up natural law and the philosophers…..and how you have moved away from thinking about it the way they do.
You mention that for those who are in sex relationships (homosexual, lesbian, bisexual, etc…) the world is not as orderly as for those not struggling with these issues. Life is a struggle and there are people who battle things of a non-sexual matter that are equally as hard to comes to terms with. We all stuggle with the things life brings us. I agree that we all struggle and we do it in our own way. We just had a teenager who worked in one of our stores commit suicide. He took his truck with massively big tires out into the desert, hoisted it up, put his head under it, released a bar and it killed him instantly. Why? He wasn’t on drugs, had an adorable girl friend, a wonderful family…….but he battled depression and told his cousin he just didn’t want to live anymore. People struggle.
What should we do when we struggle, when life is not going our way? Blame others? Blame society?
Christ would want us to come to Him….to pray and to worship Him. We should ask Him for what we want. That does not mean we will get it however because Gods plan can be different than what we think or want.
You talk about the Biblical narrative. I am not sure what your take on the Bible is. You went to seminary so obviously you know what the scriptures say. Do you believe the entire Bible, or do you believe just some of it? Does all scripture apply or just some? Should some scripture be tossed out……should others based on what science today tells us about natural law be added. Should we change the meaning of scripture to fit our different lifestyles?
I don’t know about you but as a woman of God I could care less about what the latest scientist has to say about anything. I look to God for ALL THINGS. I believe abortion is sin, it is killing one of Gods creatures. But our society says that killing dogs is wrong, but killing unborn children in the womb is right. That does not change however what the Word says about life.
You say that you are a relativist. I dissagree with that way of thinking. Here is why.
You believe that what is true for one person or group is not necessarily right for another. Your brand of relativism, what you are trying to say is that no truth is universally or objectively true or false. In the case of abortion here….you are saying that one persons truth, (me-antiabortion) which really amounts to opinion, can conflict with anothers (proabortion) truth, and still be valid. Both views are right. I think that you challenge the very existence of truth. So for you no religion is truer than another. In that case how can you be a Christian. Christ said He was the Only Way. That certainly steps on someones toes doesn’t it?
You said there are NO MORAL ABSOLUTES, no objective ethical right or wrong. You imply that your moral values are true for you but not for others. I might think that sleeping with the boss is ok, or stealing some stuff from work is ok. But is it? Who cares if everything is relative. You could make a case for slavery or a case for anything, in this case sex sin. Take relativism one step further….Cultural relativism says the same thing…….what is immoral in our culture may not be immoral in another culture. No one, can judge another cultures moral values. We can’t condemn then slavery in America, genocide in Africa or infanticide in China.
The Christians absolutist position is not only true, but consistent and compassionate. I do not believe that your worldview hangs together logically. If you want to be consistent and if your statement is only true for you (homosexuality is normal and a godly lifestyle……..then I see no reason to think it applies to ME.
You fail to meet your own criterion for truth. No worldview can be true if it contradicts itself…….and I believe that yours does on every level. I believe it contradicts the entire Word of God.
How can you believe the biblical narrative is a great testament to the world and life, you reject it as being the Truth.
There are those here that say my views on homosexual and heterosexual sex should only be true for me. A relativist would look at it that way. Why then isn’t their view only true for them? Yet many Christians here on this blog get bashed simply for dissagreeing. I would ask this of Panthera who hates anyone who simply dissagrees with him.
Tony if truth is truth, it must exclude something-falsehood. If you correct me, you assume error exists. And if you assume error exists, you assume that truth exists. There are absolutes. I am denounced as a Christian because I am judgmental, I am told I have no right to a different view especially if it counters the homosexual lifestyle. I have no right to judge others. But they quickly turn around and they judge me for judging others. So then who is being intolerant and judgmental?

I cannot imagine why someone working for the kind, considerate, compassionate ‘Christian’ churchmouse would ever commit suicide. Not in my wildest imaginings could I ever think of even one possible reason for someone hating himself so much that he’d kill himself – with such caring, loving persons as churchmouse around.

I read the scriptures as a whole. Sometimes there is a dialogue between different viewpoints. Frequently a tension. Paul is clearly anti Jerusalem at points. Revelation and James are rather more anti Pauline. The Gospel of John seeks a mystical synthesis between different views of the faith during persecution. Ruth depicts David as having Moabite stock. Nehemiah says no-one of such stock should ever be allowed in the assembly. We have two creation accounts, and many different takes on the same events. Four Gospels. Luke’s view of Paul and Paul’s view. God put the so called ‘contradictions’ in there for a reason.
Scripture is inspired, but in its entirety. When we read it together, with itself and with other people, past, present and future.
This is called ‘tradition’ in the catholic tradition. Reformed Catholics (a 400 year old label for Ancient Future?) see this tradition as growing, moving the living story of the church as the spirit moves through it.
Now this doesn’t mean one thing or the other as far as sexuality is concerned. But the discussion is part of the revelation. On the last post I discussed my take. How the bible has same sex relationships in it that are committed and covenantal but not explicitly active. How sex before marriage in scripture is abusive pre-adult sex.
This is taking scripture seriously. not proof texting.

Churchmouse,
Frankly, You claim to flee from sin, yet you flee from one (sexual sins) to another (pharisaical judgment). I don’t know how you find that to strengthen your point. In the previous thread you questioned how I would raise my children and where I may go. As far as my children, it is not who they go out that concerns me as much who they come home too. I would rather have my child possibly serve as light in the potential darkness of that other troubled child’s life, than falsely censor my children and blind them to the reality of the world. Not because I have no concern for them, but because I would rather have the opportunity to walk with them through their own struggles with the world because they know they can come to me unconditionally. Again, it is not where are children go, but what they come home too that should be of greater concern. You don’t have your child’s friend to be a good parent, you just have to genuninely and authentically be there. In the future, mind yourself in telling someone else how to raise their child, because what works for you and your heterosexual life partner (your husband), may or may not work for my wife and I. As far as where I go, as a servant of Christ I would rather be seen with other sinners than those who think they are holier than thou because they “flee from sin.” Would I go to a strip club and order a drink? Honestly, it would depend on the context. Frankly though, I find my wife far more attractive than any stripper who has no feelings or future with me. I am happily married and know that while my eyes may wander from time to time, if we allow Christ to remain at the center of our marriage than our eyes will always remain fixed upon each other. If going someplace that makes Christians cringe means maybe serving as a testimony to the Love of Chirst by meeting somone where they are, than I will always go where I am called rather than where I am worried about being seen. It is never your place to judge another, regardless of how you justify it. You can not possibly see the whole picture and how God may be working there, so please respectfully take a step back and perhaps identify areas of growth in your own life.
The bottom line is that I don’t know how or why or if God created people with different sexual orientations. I can’t possibly begin to fathom what is the mind of God. I take what I am given, and what we have been given is a love that transcends all of our worldy boundaries that we have created, not God.
As far as relative truth. What is true for you can not possibly be true for me in every circumstance because we clearly have not had the same experiences that form our worldviews. And clearly, I am not a woman therefore, what may be true for you may not be true for me, because I, as a man, have clearly not had the same experiences that you have had as a woman. I would be curious to know how old you are to be able to gage better what generation and perspective you may be coming from. There can not be an objective truth because circumstances are perpetually unique. Again, you do not and can not understand the bigger picture, thats God’s job. It’s like this, look at a picture, perhaps a common image may help. Let’s consider the American Flag. For some the American flag represents freedom, yet for others it may better embody oppression. You’re looking at the same flag waving on the flagpole, but your different worldviews will shape your individual perspective of what it means to you and how you interpret it.

This is just one of the reasons why I’m not a Christian anymore: grace gets lost in their useless, overintellectualized, and vainglorious “philosophical” arguments (like this present one) that do nothing and go nowhere (like going to a football game and all the teams do is huddle for the entire time then go back to the locker rooms, game over). And gays remain objectified by such arguments, rather than embraced in their humanity by the grace that is far more important.
It amazes me that many Christians who subscribe to the concept that everyone is in the same boat of “sin” can nonetheless revel in telling others (such as gays, for example) that they’re in a different boat. And then missing the point altogether that it is not a boat of “sin” after all, but a boat of grace, and everyone’s ticket — everyone’s — has already been paid.
Something about a certain Pharisee’s prayer at the temple; planks in other people’s eyes; and swallowing a camel and straining a gnat.

As is the norm here, much bluster about the emotion of the issue, not a lot of interaction with substance, evidence, reason. The text of scripture is read through the lens of “being nice” and not being “judgmental”, so the the words of the text become irrelevant.
There is no intelligent discussion here, no interaction with conservative theology. Just a lot of emotional venting. No reason to interact any more. See ya, Tony. If there is, as you say, no such thing as orthodoxy, you are a key figure in making sure that happens.

Like Dan and R. Jay Pearson, I take some issue with the way this argument is conducted by all sides/views.
While I do not subscribe to much of what seems to be being called “conservative theology” I do get the impression that those who do express it are shut down quickly as “haters” too often. On the other hand,
From me experience, one good rule to abide by, when having these kinds of discussions is to never refer to a PERSON in your arguments. But rather to only comment on the point of view. This means avoiding comments like “how do YOU read the bible”? (which comes accross as a rhetorical ad hominem attack). Rather I’d try to say “how does one read the bible, given premise X”.
Additionaly, I don’t think arguments are reason to disassociate one’s self from a movement. After all, where would science be without argument? However, there must be polite rules in place within which an argument can be safely conducted.

I would also like to advocate a change in the tone and tenor of this conversation. Perhaps all of us could make a more concerted effort to engage in charitable dialogue with one another. And I really mean all of us…
On the one hand,
I am deeply saddened by many of the comments that have targeted homosexuals during this discussion. Some have been hurtful. Some have been hateful. I want to encourage those who believe homosexuality is sinful to share their reasons for holding that conviction without being disrespectful or hateful.
On the other hand,
I think there have been several people that have tried to charitably share their reasons for believing that homosexuality is sinful and have been quickly put in the conservative camp. Such labels aren’t helpful. Not everyone that believes homosexuality is sinful is necessarily conservative theologically. I want to encourage those who believe homosexuality is morally permissible to avoid transference–that is, when you bring negative feelings and experiences from the past and impose them on the present conversation.
Not everyone who believes homosexuality is sinful would advocate for the torture of gays or the return of slavery. It is uncharitable to transfer that onto anyone who believes homosexuality is sinful. Not everyone who believes homosexuality is morally permissible simply has no regard for Scripture. It is uncharitable to transfer that onto anyone who believes homosexuality is morally permissible.
Just because this is a heated discussion does not justify uncharitable dialogue.

I watched this on YouTube and was going to comment there…but between YouTube and this blog, I think the dialogue is slightly more enlightened over here
One other example that came to mind when you mentioned Jesus referring exclusively to man/woman marriage and “Legion,” is the example of “give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” Does this mean that taxes should be paid exclusively to benefit those whose images grace the currency? Does this mean Jesus exclusively endorses hierarchy or Roman government? Of course not, I can’t think of anyone who would argue that. Although I do understand and respect the viewpoint of natural law, God’s grace is so much larger and nature itself is not so strictly confined.

John G
Your comment reminds me of something one of my colleagues commented on last year.
She teaches logic to both sophomore as well as graduate level students. One of her favorite class exercises is to confront the delightful little ‘truth’ “There is no such thing as safety”.
Stipulated, she will tell the class, this is quite true. That being so, she continues, let us leave these musty 17th century walls behind us and do something fun. Since there is a very pleasant beer-garden just around the corner from our campus, the students immediately assume the best.
What they get is the worst. She marches them past the beer-garden to the fence blocking off a high-speed motorway. “Having convinced me that there is no such thing as safety, I have decided to accede to your wishes, our course will now continue right here behind this blind curve, on the middle of the road. No, no, I insist you go first!
No takers.
But do keep playing your little semantic games, dear. We need some comic relief around here.

JD…………
“I would rather have my child possibly serve as light in the potential darkness of that other troubled child’s life, than falsely censor my children and blind them to the reality of the world.”
Of course we train them up to walk in the light, but we as parents have godly responsibility and one of them is to protect them while they are young. And to do this, we often times have to judge people and situations.
‘Again, it is not where are children go, but what they come home too that should be of greater concern.”
I disagree…… sometimes it is where they go, especially when we are not there. Parents should have rules because kids need structure and protection. That does not mean they can’t live their own lives.
“As far as where I go, as a servant of Christ I would rather be seen with other sinners than those who think they are holier than thou because they “flee from sin.”
I am not suggesting that I am better or are more holier than thou….I take that as a slam which I have not done to you. I walk with other sinners as well, but I watch what I do and how I represent God. Going into a strip club is ungodly period. Unless it’s on fire and you are a firefighter trying to save people. Our actions should represent Christ and our witness and walk should reflect that especially to those who are unbelievers. Example. You are witnessing Christs love to some neighbors who are unbelievers. How would it look if they saw you come out of a strip club, or if they saw you drunk? We have to stay on that narrow path. Our walk must be authentic.
How would it have looked to the witnesses who saw Jesus tell the woman to sin no more and then be caught in sin Himself? He was the real deal and we should try to be like Him. By practicing what you preach. I can’t believe you would say that going into a strip club would depend on the context. What reason would you need? Bachelor party? How many men could go into a club and not lust? Isnt lusting a sin as well?
“Frankly though, I find my wife far more attractive than any stripper who has no feelings or future with me. I am happily married and know that while my eyes may wander from time to time, if we allow Christ to remain at the center of our marriage than our eyes will always remain fixed upon each other.”
Then why wouldn’t you say no I would not go to a strip club. I agree that we should keep Christ in the center of everything we do.
I think you could meet someone where they are even after they left the strip club don’t you?
“It is never your place to judge another, regardless of how you justify it. You can not possibly see the whole picture and how God may be working there, so please respectfully take a step back and perhaps identify areas of growth in your own life.”
Why the hostility? I can judge words and actions and the scriptures tell me I can. I can not however judge someone heart. Aren’t you judging me here? You directly told me what to do and you based it on what I said. You told me I could not judge. You are saying that while at the same time judging me. And you are judging my heart because you imply that I am not a nice person. I may not be a biblical scholar but I do not feel I need to be in order to understand how God wants me to live my life. Do you know the whole picture perfectly?
I will continue respectfully standing on the Word the way I interpret it. You are doing the same thing.
I would suggest reading books by Ravi Zacharius about relative truth, he is simply awesome.
“You’re looking at the same flag waving on the flagpole, but your different worldviews will shape your individual perspective of what it means to you and how you interpret it.”
I am talking about moral issues. A flag waving is certainly not a moral issue. Take rape for example. Can rape ever be justified? Can slavery? Can female genital mutilation? All of these are done in countries that sees them as moral. Was it moral what happened on 9-11 to all the innocent people that died that day? Were the actions of the terrorist moral? Millions of people thought so and cheered as they were coming down.
R. JAY I NEVER said gays were in a different boat so please do not imply that I did. I have stated at nauseum that sex outside marriage which includes heterosexuals as well, is sin. I never said they could not achieve salvation. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS HERE AND THAT IS SIN. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMEONES HEART. But those who dissagree with me MAKE IT A HATE ISSUE.
You bring up grace. God pronounced original Grace but there is more to it than that. And that is when we take matters into our own hands and we do it our way, contrary to what He commands. That happens when we ignore God and its called sin. We turn from Grace. When we realize that what we are doing is wrong and sin and ask God to help us get back on the path then Grace helps us do that. You can go to someone with Grace but unless they acknowledge that the path they are on is wrong, they can not expect God to bless the sin they are committing.
Christians should help one another do this and we should want to help and want to be helped in times when we all fall. We still must acknowledge our sin and we have to want to live right. We might be loved by God but that does not mean He loves and will accept what we do. If we sin, that directly separates us from Him because He is good. I went to my son with love and grace but I still spoke about the sin he was committing, that it was wrong. Grace is a gift from God for those who live according to the Word. Jesus showed grace to the poor, the hungry the outcasts of society but He never compromised the message, the Good News. He told the adultress to stop sinning. Why? Because sin is not of God it is evil. All sin is evil.

cm,
“Panthera says that many do, is he wrong?”
I’ve never read anything Panthera has written that says “many” people struggle with their innate sexuality.
“You say I am judgmental”
You are. And you admit it/are proud of it: “as a Christian I have a right to judge other Christians words and actions”
Not according to Christ you don’t. Or are you without sin?
“If I bring up bestiality etc.”
You relegate yourself to irrelevance. Sex ewith animals is not what we are discussing. Nor are they comparable to what we are discussing.
Sorry, cm, but you cannot be “a loving caring person” while bearing false witness about others.
“I asked the same questions because no one answers them.”
Yes, we have. Repeatedly. Lie by lying lie.
” I do not believe that you understand the law “
As usual, you are wrong.
“Of course I do not believe that gays should be killed or children be put to death”
But it’s “in the Bible”. Hmmm…
“I am also anti-abortion are you? I would guess that you probably are pro-choice. I pray you are not. I won’t get into that either.”
But you just did “get into that”. I love it when people say they don’t/won’t do/say things, and then they go right ahead and do/say them. Like comparing our relationships to beastiality, and then claiming – utterly falsely – ‘not that I’m comparing them’. Well, ya are, Blanche. Ya ARE comparing them/getting into them.
“but He sent Christ
Who said not one recorded word on the topic, I might remind you.
“I do however believe in the order and the biblical structure of the Church found in Corinthians particularly about women.”
That they should be silent and not teach or preach? So much for Aimee Semple McPherson, etc., eh? Selectivity, thy name is churchmouse.
” Do you also want to toss this book out of the Bible?”
Hon’, I’m not the one that excised entire Books out of the Bible. That seems to be the job of certain men of history.
“Going into a strip club is ungodly period.”
There was a wonderful piece on thenews the other night about a priest who frequents prostitute bars in Asia – in hopes of saving underaged girls from such a life. YOu people only see black and white and never any shades of grey. So sad, really.
“You told me I could not judge.”
No, Christ did.
“Why the hostility?”
Because of the lies. Thanx 4 askin’.