Ken Silva Has Died

Ken Silva Has Died October 1, 2014

According to his website, Ken Silva died on Sunday. It states, He had succumbed to the strain of the pain he had been enduring for the past few years.”

Ken Silva was a longtime internet nemesis of mine, and probably the most singleminded opponent of the emerging church movement on the internet. But it wasn’t just me and emergent at which he took aim. Ken was against everyone — Rick Warren, the Catholic Church, John Piper, John MacArthur, liberals, Brian McLaren, women pastors, gays, etc. Ken was among those who first referred to my friend as Pastrix Nadia Bolz-Weber. He treated all of us with savagery and brutality.

In 2007, as I was recovering from knee surgery, I tracked Ken down and called him. We actually had a nice chat. He told me that he’d been a musician, touring up and down the West Coast, fueled by drugs and alcohol, when he converted to Christianity. And his conversion was a radical one. He ended up in New Hampshire, where he had worked as a DJ and a football coach before becoming pastor of a small Baptist church. Really small. In The Last Post I’ll Ever Write About Ken Silva, I unearthed a few more facts about Ken.

I called him one more time, and he kept right on writing about me, “apostate” being his favorite appellation for me. I passed his phone number along to Doug Pagitt, and Doug called Ken several times. According to Doug, his calls with Ken were similar — on the phone, he found Ken to be a nice guy, if a bit misguided. They kept up correspondence over a time, Doug often calling out Ken on Twitter, then calling him on the phone.

The internet makes for strange bedfellows. It also allows people who are otherwise decent, generous people to post vicious, venomous untruths. Ken’s writings about me were savage — as some others have been. But when we got on the phone, we were no longer memes and trolls to one another. We humanized each other when we talked about family, jobs, and even theology.

Ken Silva and I may not have been friends, and he didn’t even consider me his brother in Christ. But at least we’d spoken when he died. At least we’d shared a little bit of humanity with each other.

I pray that in death, Ken finds more peace than he seemed to find in life.

—————————————————————————————–

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  • Some of Ken’s best headlines below.

    • Tony Jiang

      hi you said Ken Silva also critized John Macauthor but on the Silva blog i found nothing but priase for Macarthur

  • randybuist

    Incredible grace you show here Tony.

    • WilmRoget

      Well, at least goats are free to cross the bridge while you are busy posting here.

  • At the time I felt like I “made it” when he called me out on Apprising. I am glad to know that he was a “real” person under the cloak of the vicious field of the internet. May his memory be eternal.

  • Becky

    I think sometimes, and this is my own personal opinion, people live with their false selves for so long that the damage they actually inflict on others mirrors back to them as well. They cloak themselves in supposed “Christian” beliefs as a way to armour themselves from the pain that is eating them up inside and eventually even their false selves can’t protect them any longer. I didn’t know this man but I know many people just like him. Hopefully he is at peace now. We can only hope that his victims realize what was happening with him and didn’t allow his self-hatred to harm them in any way. Forgiveness and grace protects our own hearts from those so wounded and broken.

  • Ken “apprised” me a couple times too, but our actual talks were always really nice. I look forward to sharing a heavenly beer with him someday. I suspect we’ll both have a lot to laugh at ourselves about.

  • JC Kelly

    I understand this individual has been hurtful, but I feel going to this level of detail casts the deceased guy as duplicitous in a very negative way that shouldn’t happen after a death. I think a lot of people are in an internal struggle based on the faith they adopt. Yeah, some people adopt beliefs to fit their personality, but others get inspired, and even duped into beliefs they feel they can’t compromise. I don’t know if you have ever talked to Darwin Fish of (A True Church), for instance, but he believes everyone is going to hell, but talking to him is really a rather pleasant experience. When I worked at the Acquire the Fire call center, we didn’t talk to pastors of the Church of Christ, who also thought we were going to hell, though they were very nice and considerate as a whole. When I was a Christian, I believed most people were going to hell, and were unintentionally false teachers, but I thought it was just a problem with people getting the wrong message.

    Going into details about all the harm this person did, seems to be going too far. I think it didn’t need to be in detail to get the point across which makes this seem more like venting. And I understand, if someone is hurt by someone else, it is very normal to vent. But those of us in the community need to be there to help that hurt person see keep doing the right thing, and to keep the right perspective, and to let go of the resentment.

    • Dustin

      Hi JC,

      I see where you’re coming from, but I didn’t take Tony’s post to be casting Ken as “duplicitous.” Rather, I took him to be explaining that Ken was more complex than his internet persona would lead us to believe. I felt like Tony humanized him and softened his image a bit by sharing his personal experience with the guy. The tone I got from this was, “don’t just take this guy (or anyone else) at face value; there’s more to him than that!”

    • JC, you are misreading this post.

      • Calvnst Wonder Woman

        From your reads, sounds like you have a lot of anger against Ken. You need to get rid of it, it’s just hurting you.

      • Steve67

        Care to clarify how JC is misreading the post? Rationalize it all you want but describing anyone’s behavior as “savage” just days after they passed away, is at best misguided. Is this how you want people speaking of you just days after you die?

    • Dean

      I liked Tony’s post. I think most people are actually decent when you get down to it and particularly if you talk to them in person. The anonymity of the Internet encourages people to say outlandish things that they probably would never articulate in real life. I don’t know who Ken Silva is, but I have been to that website several times and it’s definitely a fascinating read.

    • Jason Matthew Thorp

      You don’t adopt the Christian faith, it adopts you.

  • davehuth

    When I first read this guy online, he terrified me. I can become overwhelmed by rhetoric, and Ken used emotionally freighted words that rang my bells. Tony (and his friends) helped humanize him for me over the years (and others of his interlocutors like pastorboy, Piper, the pirate guy, etc.) – so that my first feeling on hearing he’d died was genuine sadness. I guess that means the way this conflict played out also humanized me. Thanks for that, Tony.

    • Thanks, Dave. Really, it’s hard to articulate the change that took place in me after we spoke on the phone.

  • KentonS

    What is this strange emotion I’m feeling?

    Thanks, Tony. RIP, Ken. Really.

  • jdm8

    I don’t know exactly who this helps. Better a terrible person die in a quiet whimper than give him even more attention.

    • Having spoken to Ken on the phone a couple times, I would not call him a “terrible person.”

      • jdm8

        OK, the list of how he’s wronged other people in his zeal sure made him sound pretty terrible to me.

        • Misguided, for sure.

          • Steve67

            Care to provide a substantive argument for why he was so “misguided”? Or are you just going to continue to disrespect his memory? Mr Silva certainly could be said to have used some bold and even abrasive language at times, but at the end of the day all he was “guilty” of is holding false-teachers accountable. If his allegations that your teaching is unbiblical and contradictory to historic Christian doctrine are untrue, then prove it. Calling him “misguided”, referring to his writing as “savage”, and portraying him as angry and bitter does nothing to disprove him. It may endear you further to those who currently align themselves with the emergent church but to those of us critical of it, your comments only have the effect of exposing your own pettiness. If you really believe he was so misguided and “savage” then perhaps it would have been best for you to just not say anything in response to his passing, out of compassion for those mourning his loss.

            It’s ironic that those in the emergent movement claim that they want to be open to all viewpoints, while anyone who dares to challenge the emergent viewpoint based on a belief in absolute truth is considered to be “misguided”. It’s sad that when you and your emergent cronies do that you are being far more insulting and dismissive than those you accuse of making misguided, “savage” attacks on you.

            • WilmRoget

              “Care to provide a substantive argument”

              Why are you holding anyone else to a standard you have not met yourself?

              • Steve67

                My only allegation was that it was disrespectful for Mr Jones to write of Mr Silva as “misguided” or his behavior as “savage” just days after passing away. All the substance you need is in Mr Jones’ blog post itself.

                • WilmRoget

                  So you won’t explain why you are holding others to a standard you don’t live up to. You are simply reviling people to defend a reviler.

  • tewaz1

    I’m not sure what I think about this post. I get a bit squeamish when speaking of the dead, particularly those who have wronged us.
    On the other hand, I find a really useful lesson in this. When people are venomous, savage, and hurtful, so often all the anger we see masks, and is the product of intense pain and fear. I think that’s something we’d do well to remember when people abuse us on the internet.

  • Sterling Vanderwerker

    well,.. what a time to take up offenses,.. over a dead man’s burial. proof of his right observations about your character.

  • reformednazarene

    I agree with Ken Silva’s assessment- based on your beliefs and what you
    promote, you are an apostate. But frankly, I still would have kept a
    certain respect for you regardless of differences, if you had refrained
    from writing this piece. And I don’t hate you, Tony. I do hate what you
    and others in the emergent movement are doing to Christianity.

    • You sure are assigning a lot of power to Tony. I don’t think he’s doing anything to Christianity. Christianity is self-imploding all by itself. It left me a few years ago.

      • reformednazarene

        I’m sorry to hear that. Perhaps it was religion that left you- but the power of the Gospel is real, and I recommend strongly that you read the Scriptures- for there you will find life- in the Person of Jesus Christ. It will not be found in the imaginations and re-inventions of God;s word, whether by Tony Jones or anyone else.

        • Not to split hairs but I said Christianity left me, not religion.

          • reformednazarene

            The offer of salvation through Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection, which is free to all who accept it, never is taken off the table by God. God does not give up on anyone; it is us who always fail and give up or leave Him.
            We can change our minds, we can reject God; but the Gospel never changes, and God never changes, which is why there is always hope through Jesus Christ.

            In the end, we will each answer to God at the Judgment day.

            • Again, i said nothing about God. The Mystery isn’t the problem, people who claim certainty thru a certain gate are the problem.

              • reformednazarene

                I understand. The certainty I personally claim is based on Jesus Christ and His claim and the evidence He gave, of His divinity- not of my own thinking. Nothing I say is of absolute certain value- unless I have said what Christ Himself said- “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6

                According to Jesus, if you don’t know Him, then you don’t know God. Take it up with Him, then, not with me or any other human being and whatever claims they make of their own imagination. But Jesus said He is the ONLY way to God. Reject Him, and you reject God. My prayer is that you come to know Him as God and as your Savior.

              • Jason Matthew Thorp

                So basically you have a problem with Jesus.

                • What moral person wouldn’t have a problem with Jesus?

                  • Jason Matthew Thorp

                    Interesting that you think you are the judge.

                    • Interesting that you think humans should have no moral judgement.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      To have moral judgement there must be an objective moral standard. Otherwise there is just what I like and don’t like vs what you like and don’t like with no way of knowing who is really right. Thus, no man who is not God is in any position to make moral judgements. The best man can do is repeat the judgement of the judge. Judge not that you be not judged for with what judgement you judge it will be measured back to you. Jesus, being God in human flesh and proving so by fullfilling prophesy, performing miracles, and raising Himself from the dead has the authority to judge. You do not. I think I will believe the words of the one who died for me and raised himself from the dead for me over you, who like myself,will one day die, unable to raise yourself from the dead. Thank God I know Jesus will raise me from the dead even as He is risen.

                    • The Bible is no objective moral standard; it is a cesspool of immorality. If you want to know how morality came about, study nature.

                      • Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals. (1996) Harvard University Press.
                      • Rational Animals? (2006) Oxford University Press
                      • Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved. (2006) Princeton University Press.
                      • Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals (2010) Chicago University Press
                      • Moral Origins: The Evolution of Virtue, Altruism, and Shame. (2012) Basic Books.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Based on what standard?

                    • Look around you. Is smashing babies’ heads on rocks “moral” to you? It is depicted as joyous in the Bible. Mass murder the “Lord” orders is actually a crime, if you haven’t heard.

                      Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.Psalm 137:9

                      Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” Deuteronomy 13:13-19

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Sadly, You have no idea of what any of that means in context or in light of the Gospel. Nor do I believe you know what the Gospel is. You are so self righteous that you don’t even realize you need it.

                    • Context! LOL! Context to you is a talismanic word used to ward off thinking about the plain meaning of embarrassing passages.
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      You are either an idiot, or mentally ill.

                    • You’ll never use “context” as a talisman against rational thought again, will you?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I doubt you have had a rational thought in years.

                    • Mighty christian of you to say that.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      “Objective evidence is the ultimate authority. Recorders may lie, but Nature is incapable of it.”- Actually, that isn’t true. Nature is fallen and not as it was originally created. Also, our own hearts love lies and we do willingly decieve ourselves apart from the grace of God.

                    • Your make-believe notions convince nobody but simpletons who retard their intellect to a child-like Santa Claus Eligible state of being able to swallow nonsense. Bible tells me so.

                      LK 18.17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

                      MT 11.25 At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

                      1CO 1.18-26 For the message about the cross is nonsense…the nonsense of our preaching…Not many of you were wise by human standards…

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      1 Cor. 1:18-26 is more properly rendered “foolishness”. Objectively it is not non-sense but it does not make sense to fallen reason. I am not the one with the make believe notions. I have history on my side. I am not the one in the position of having to explain away the evidence.

                    • Nonsense, foolishness, what’s the difference? Translators go both ways. Objectively, it is abject nonsense.

                      > I have history on my side.

                      LOL! So when was Jesus born?

                      Though Luke 1:5 dates the birth of Jesus in the “days of Herod, king of Judaea,” who died in 4 B.C., he wants the journey from Galilee to Bethlehem to have occurred in response to a census called when “Quirinius was governor of Syria.”

                      As historians know, the one and only census conducted while Quirinius was legate in Syria affected only Judaea, not Galilee, and took place in A.D. 6-7, a good ten years after the death of Herod the Great. In his anxiety to relate the Galilean upbringing with the supposed Bethlehem birth, Luke confused his facts. Indeed, Luke’s anxiety has involved him in some real absurdities, like the needless ninety-mile journey of a woman in her last days of pregnancy—for it was the Davidic Joseph who supposedly had to be registered in the ancestral village, not the Levitical Mary.

                      Worse yet, Luke has been forced to contrive a universal dislocation for a simple tax registration. Who could imagine the efficient Romans requiring millions in the empire to journey scores of hundreds of miles to the villages of millennium-old ancestors merely to sign a tax form!

                      Needless to say, no such event ever happened in the history of the Roman Empire.

                      ~Randel Helms (1988) Gospel Fictions. Prometheus Books.

                      Even more evidence Jesus was never born as depicted in the “Gospels:”

                      It is beyond reasonable dispute that Luke dates the birth of Jesus to 6 A.D. It is equally indisputable that Matthew dates the birth of Jesus to 6 B.C. (or some year before 4 B.C.). This becomes an irreconcilable contradiction after an examination of all the relevant facts…

                      The Date of the Nativity in Luke (6th ed., 2011)
                      Richard Carrier
                      infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/quirinius.html

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      You know there was more than one king named Herod right? Jesus was born about 6 B.C. ish. I suggest you read Dr. Paul L. Maier’s book. Apparently you never heard of Josephus either. That you would assert that it is even possible that Jesus was not born show that you are a certified irrational nutjob.

                    • > Apparently you never heard of Josephus either.

                      Yeah, I have, liar.

                      > you are a certified irrational nutjob.

                      Doubling down on your lies, eh? You sound like Comrade Brezhnev did.
                      wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Not a lie, a deduction. You might try judging yourself before you judge others. BTW, you KNOW God exists. You just refuse to acknowledge Him, suppressing the Truth in unrighteousness. You are without excuse sir.

                    • Yours is a lie, and was not deduced from any valid information.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Well, if you knew then you would know there is hostile witness to the existence of Jesus and His ministry. You would know that the uninterpolated version of Antiquities shows that he wrote about Jesus being called the Christ and that He had a brother (half, Jesus had no human father) named James who was martyred. You are in denial of the historical evidence.

                    • You’re in denial of the contradictions of the Bible about the time Jesus was born.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Contradictions you read into it because you hate God. Issues Etc. has some good segments on apparent contradictions in the Bible and Bible difficulties. You might want to inform yourself considering your apparent ignorance.

                    • Contradictions you won’t admit because you hate logic.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      One day you will eat your words. Don’t say I didn’t warn you. That said, I actually love logic. Now I won’t say that I am an expert, but I liked it enough to take the class in college.

                    • You are full of hatred and empty threats of torture. In other words, a typical evangelical.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I am not full of hatred, I am concerned for your soul. I never threatened you, and I am most certainly not an Evangelical. I am merely letting you know that because you and all people have broken the ten commandments God must be just and punish you but He is merciful and has provided the atonement for your sin and wants you to receive the benefit of that, namely the forgiveness of your sins and eternal life. How is that hatefull? Is it hatefull to warn someone they are about to fall off of a cliff?

                    • Hell fire is a terroristic threat.

                      > soul

                      Factual evidence, where is it?

                      > has provided the atonement for your sin

                      Ah, you’re selling the same “atonement” garbage Plato talked about in his day. Ever study the pagan origins of christianity?

                      […] they perform their ritual, and persuade not only individuals, but whole cities, that expiations and atonements for sin may be made by sacrifices and amusements which fill a vacant hour, and are equally at the service of the living and the dead; the latter sort they call mysteries, and they redeem us from the pains of hell, but if we neglect them no one knows what awaits us.

                      Plato (4th century BCE) The Republic. Book II.
                      classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      lse are you supposed to know what it is you need to be saved from? Perhaps you think it is terroristic because you refuse to believe that God would ever even forgive sinners such as yourself? Apparently deep down your conscience bothers you. Absurd quote. There are no pagan roots of Christianty. There are two religions, the religion of do, Paganism, and the religion of done for you by Jesus, Christianity. They are antithetical to each other. You might learn what sortierology is.

                    • Apparently, deep down, your conscience bothers you. You’re trying to weasel out of the fact that threatening hell, if it were actually real, is a terrorist act. And yes, the pagan origins of christianity are well documented.

                      Soteriology? Try spelling it correctly, eh? 😉 (And no, I didn’t look it up.) Soteriology has been nullified by evolutionary biology. Genetics prove that there was no single breeding pair in the human genetic past, and thus no Adam and Eve, and thus no need to be saved from anything.

                      For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ~Romans 5:19

                      For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. ~1 Corinthians 15:22

                      And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. ~1 Timothy 2:14

                      Jerry Coyne (2013) Scientists Try to Reconcile Adam and Eve Story, Whiff. Again. New Republic.
                      newrepublic.com/article/115759/adam-eve-theologians-try-reconcile-science-and-fail

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      1. You are a radical nut job. 2. The debate between creationists and darwinists is not over evidence, it is over interpretation. I doubt you can even correctly convey the creationist position.

                    • You’ve deliberately retarded your intellect as Jesus wanted, and it shows.

                      LK 18.17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

                      MT 11.25 At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

                      You apparently never cracked open a science book.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      You were apparently never in the military since you don’t know what terrorism is.

                    • I know what terrorism is; you’re unwilling to admit how terroristic hell is.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I will admit that I might be a bit harsh in response to your obstinance. I get impatient with hard headed fools who refuse to acknowledge the facts.

                    • If you have any factual evidence, present it. But you don’t. You’re running a confidence game with your belief system. Bible tells me so.

                      • Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
                      • Ephesians 3:12 confidence through faith
                      • 1 Timothy 3:13 increased confidence in their faith

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      The text of Jesus arrest warrant preserved in rhabinical writings is one little factoid among a mountain of factoids that totally refutes your assertion that Jesus never existed. The doctrines contained in the NT and the writings of the church fathers refute the fantasies of Mr. Carrier whom you adore so much. Are you crying yet? I know you want to say that the Gospels were second or third century. How then did Clement quote them in 96?

                    • Pious fictions do not evidence make.

                      Randel Helms (1988) Gospel Fictions. Prometheus Books.

                      You may as well say the Paul Bunyan story is evidence that a blue ox is a “fact.”

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      That is how I know you are a nut job. Clement’s 1st epistle to the Corinthians is held by scholars to be not only genuine but also first century. See, you refuse to acknowledge the facts. You are either dumb, evil, or mentally ill.

                    • You’re the nutjob. You put words in my mouth that I never said but you claim I would say, and then argue them. I guess you’re used to talking with imaginary friends about make-believe stuff, but it looks pretty strange from my end.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I would venture to say you have told more lies in your life than can be counted. Shocking how moralistic and hypocritical the Atheists I meet are, all the while charging others with moralism and hypocrisy.

                    • You got caught out telling lies about me, and now you dig a deeper hole in your ad hom attacks. I pity you for having such paucity of arguments.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      More hypocrisy.

                    • Don’t tell lies about me, and you won’t get called out. Problem?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I would not begin to tell you about lies. You are an expert already.

                    • “I’m rubber, you’re glue” gets old fast. Got any other 2nd grade taunts?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Gonkyhead!

                    • Knowing there is some relationship with the word cretin, what if the people of Antioch, at first, called the disciples CRETINS (retards, idiots)?
                      fossilizedcustoms.com/christian.html

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      So you appeal to a heretical group (Hebrew Roots Movement) who are noted for logical falacies to make your case?

                    • “Heresy?” LOL Jeeesh, talk about logical fallacies, cretin.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Which one?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      “Oh, but it was on the internet so it must be true right?” Yeah, I think you are one of those types.

                    • Oh, but I just have to ignore what I just read and drive it from my head. Yeah, I think you are one of those types.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp
                    • I’m not “sonny.” Why do you continue to act so juvenile here? Also, Richard Carrier is a noted historical scholar, and has a peer-reviewed book. Is your stuff peer- reviewed? No?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Do you even know who Dr. Paul L. Maier is? I suggest you look him up sonny. The reason I call you that is because I don’t respect you because of your arrogance and intellectual dishonesty. I find you to be self-righteous, hypocritical, dishonest, and infantile.

                    • Third Vice President of the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, right? So he’s a believer, “sonny.” LOL

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Dummy, I can turn around and point out that your beloved Richard Carrier is a militant Atheist activist. But that still would not have anything to do with the price of tea in China. U B Dumb dude.

                    • When you have something peer-reviewed, let me know, ok?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      BTW, that is nice that his book was peer reviewed, but was it reviewed by anyone who knew anything about church history or the history of Christian theology? I doubt it.

                    • Do you just make off-the-handle false accusations all day? Mighty christian of ya.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar29.htm
                      http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar28.htm
                      Have a couple articles from a reputable historian instead of that goofy link you posted earlier.

                    • Actually, Richard Carrier is a noted historian, and has a peer-reviewed book on why it’s likely (80% probability) Christ is just a myth. Keep up your ad hom attacks, it’s all you have.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      He’s about as legitamate of a historian as David Barton. His theories are absurd and worthy of mockery, not to mention already refuted many times over. Dr. Maier on the other hand is respected by friend and foe and has quite a list of academic credentials. Carrier is little more than a pop historian who is scratching the itching ears of the chattering class.

                    • Your good “Dr.” is rather high in church hierarchy. He has to protect his living. That’s hardly “respectable.”

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      How can you really think you are oh so righteous in and of yourself when you make such charges? Hypocrite.

                    • When you’ve got peer-reviewed material, let me know, ok?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I never bothered to look but a scholar of Maier’s calibre and longevity undoubtedly has mountains of it. BTW, your guy is not much of a historian, more of an activist. His assertions about what early Christians believed are utterly absurd. I would also point out that Atheism is not a belief, it is an ASSUMPTION. You guys are constantly kicking against the goads trying to explain away the clear evidence because you want to hold to a false assumption to suit your passions. It will only land you in Hell. Jesus is God in Human flesh crucified for your sins and the sins of all people. Believe it, receive it, rest in the forgiveness of sins and the promise of a bodily resurrection to eternal life. It is the truth. The lie you love so much only leads to death.

                    • > the promise of a bodily resurrection

                      Got evidence? Nope. You’ve been conned by a confidence trick.

                      • Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
                      • Ephesians 3:12 confidence through faith
                      • 1 Timothy 3:13 increased confidence in their faith

                      Oh well, somebody has to make a living, right?

                      Those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. 1 Cor. 9:14

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Yes, we have a lot of evidence but you choose to ignor it and go out of your way to not be exposed to it. The Christian faith is not blind faith. Yes faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen… and there is evidence for it. Even if you were convinced Jesus was raised from the dead it would not mean that you have faith. Even the devil believes that much. The question is do you believe it was for you and that your sins are forgiven because of it? That is the unseen part. We do not presently see the resurrection now but we do look forward to it confidently because Christ was raised from the dead.

                      As for evidence, the Apostles constantly appealed to the evidence. Christianity is not afraid of scrutiny. It is everyone else who is afraid.

                      Acts 26:24-28English Standard Version (ESV)

                      24 And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind.” 25 But Paul said, “I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking true and rational words. 26 For the king knows about these things, and to him I speak boldly. For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice, for this has not been done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe.” 28 And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?”[
                      The Bereans checked the scriptural evidence.
                      Acts 17:11English Standard Version (ESV)

                      11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
                      Evidence and faith are not opposed to each other.

                    • You have zero evidence. That is why you need “faith” in “nonsense.”

                      Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

                      1 Cor. 1:18-21 For the message about the cross is nonsense…to save those who believe through the nonsense of our preaching.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      “Your words are so foolishly and ignorantly composed that I cannot believe you understand them” -Martin Luther

                    • Do you hate just about anybody, like your buddy Luther—the inspiration for the Holocaust? “My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down…” ~Martin Luther
                      [photo from the Martin Luther Nazi Church in Berlin]

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I don’t hate anyone, even you. I just don’t respect you. As for Martin Luther you might actually take the time to read “On the Jews and their Lies”, he wasn’t attacking the race, he was attacking their doctrine. You might also read Uwe Siemon-netto’s “The Fabricated Luther”. Many Lutherans actually went to their deaths in the concentration camps resisiting the Nazis, BECAUSE of Lutheran doctrine. Like I said, you are either dumb or dishonest. Which is it?

                    • Oh, I guess it’s ok if Luther wants to burn down Jewish synagogues if he’s attacking doctrine and not race. LOL! Who knew until you came along?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I’ve actually read the book, you haven’t. Anyway, Luther said some wrong stuff in the book for sure, but he also said late in life that if he could he would burn ever book he wrote except the Catechism and “Bondage of the Will”.

                    • I don’t read trash, you do. “Mistakes were made.” LOL

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      I never said anything about mistakes. How do you know something is trash or not if you never read it? Oh right, the internet said…

                    • You said he wished he had burned his garbage = “mistakes were made”

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      In other words, faith does not mean believing in spite of the evidence. It means believeing and it is backed up by evidence.

                    • Wrong. • Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

                      Keep trying to fool yourself.

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Keep ignoring the facts to your detriment if you will. You have niether eyes nor ears nor rational faculties. Ever heard of the word context? You cannot know what the text means without the context. Until you understand that you will always look dumb or dishonest and I for one will never respect you.
                      John 20:29English Standard Version (ESV)

                      29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

                    • My detriment? LOL Empty threats. Or do you really believe, like Jesus, in an underworld realm of Zeus’ brother Hades? Hey, the world is spherical. There is no kingdom of the damned beneath our feet.

                      Robert J. Schadewald (1987) The Flat-Earth Bible. The Bulletin of the Tychonian Society. #44.
                      http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      The internet told you that did he?

                    • Grasping at straws, are you?

                    • Jason Matthew Thorp

                      Are you dumb or dishonest?

                    • Jim Watson

                      We do not see the wind, but we see the evidence for the wind. You seem to think that anyone who believes in the wind is fooling themselves.

                      Either that, or you are trying to read things into Hebrews 11:1 that it does not say.

                      Either way, you position would be seen as unreasonable to reasonable people. It does not appear that the people who believe what the Bible ACTUALLY says are the ones trying to fool themselves.

                    • There is plenty of empirical evidence one can SEE of clear liquids. You’re lying about what faith is. You seem to by lying about both faith and the wind.

                    • Jim Watson

                      Of course, anyone reading the comment I made and your response would see your obvious attempt to change the subject. I did not speak of clear liquids. I spoke of the wind. The wind is not a liquid (although it does move some of them). It is the movement of these clear liquids which you admit can be evidenced that provides some of the evidence that the wind exists.

                      I do not lie about faith. I do not lie about the wind. And, I will not allow you to change the subject because it happens to disagree with your personal prejudices.

                      Faith is not blind belief. It is belief based on evidence. Blind faith, as it is called, is actually prejudice. That is the type of faith you seem to have (at least, given the evidence of your comments about me).

                    • You’re trying to weasel out of the fact that there is empirical evidence of the wind. You can sense it both directly and indirectly. So stop the faith bullshit.

                    • Jim Watson

                      You seem to have some problem understanding what faith really is. You keep insisting that faith is the same thing as prejudice. It is not. Accepting something without any evidence is not faith. It is prejudice.

                      The problem that most nonbelievers have with the concept of faith vs. prejudice is that they reject the evidence as evidence.

                      If you want to insist on natural evidence for supernatural beings and events, you will always fall short. But, that ASSUMES that the supernatural realm does not exist. And, that, too, is the prejudice of which I spoke. And, sadly, that is your position.

                      You have rejected the lake of fire that burns eternally, for example. But, rejecting it makes it no less real. I turn to a book that has never been proven wrong about anything it actually says for my understanding of the lake of fire. What do you have? “I refuse to believe it.”

                      Which of us has blind faith? Me? Hardly.

                      I would love to hear your direct evidence of the wind sometime. That would make most interesting reading (since it does not exist). The existence of such evidence is another assumption that you make that has no basis in fact.

                      You might want to check your assumptions. You could find that you have assumed yourself into a false position. Then, you might possibly realize that you don’t need to use verbiage that is inappropriate for discussions on a forum available to all ages. Such terminology typifies a person who realizes that his position is unsupported but has too much pride to admit it.

                    • You seem to have a problem with how the Bible defines faith. It is literally a confidence game. Bible says so.

                      • Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
                      • Ephesians 3:12 confidence through faith
                      • 1 Timothy 3:13 increased confidence in their faith

                    • Jim Watson

                      The Bible never says it is a confidence game. YOU say that. Not all confidence is a confidence game. When you step into an elevator, you have a measure of confidence that it will not fall. When you turn on your stove, you have a measure of confidence that it will heat the food without setting fire to your home. If you practice driving a car, your confidence in your ability to drive without an accident increases. There is nothing like a confidence game involved.

                      And, it would continue to be prejudicial of you to try to force that meaning into the Bible when it says nothing of the sort. You cannot change what the Bible says to what you want it to say.

                      I have no problem with how the Bible defines faith. I have many problems with how YOU define faith and with how YOU attempt to rewrite the Bible to fit your prejudices.

                      My confidence that you will see the truth of what the Bible actually says is dwindling somewhat. You do not appear to care what the Bible says. And, if you are going to ignore what the Bible says to disagree with people who believe what the Bible says, you will find yourself in a rather awkward position. Logically, you cannot ignore the source you want to use. And, yet, that is exactly what you continue to try to do.

                    • Bible says it. YOU can’t handle the truth.

                      P.S. If you can show me evidence of your faith equivalent to an elevator, which is real, please do. Otherwise, quit bald-faced lying to me that you actually have such evidence. kthx

                    • Jim Watson

                      Repeating the same lies does not make them true. The Bible clearly does not say what you say. It does not say what you want it to say.

                      And, now that your definition of confidence has been shown to be indefensible, you want to shift to something I never said. You seem to have no understanding of what you believe. You clearly have no idea of what I believe or what the Bible actually says.

                      Why is it that you call me a liar (repeatedly) when I have never lied to you? Why is it that when I try to show you that what you say the Bible says is false, I am called a liar? It seems that the only defense you have for your position is to call people names and try to argue things that no one else has said.

                      You seem unable to handle abstract concepts like confidence. You want to replace them with concrete concepts like elevators. You call me a liar, but you have not yet shown anything I have said to be a lie. (Something does not become a lie simply because you choose to not believe it.)

                      Show me where the Bible says “confidence game” or “confidence trick”. You want to assign those meanings to the word confidence. But, that is not what confidence means. In fact, those are abuses of the confidence of another.

                      In fact, show me where I lied about what the Bible actually says (instead of your version of what the Bible says). Don’t add to or subtract things from the Bible (like skipping the bulk of 4 verses when you quote them).

                      Have a legitimate discussion about what the Bible actually says instead of lying about what it says and then calling the people willing to quote the Bible the liars.

                      Otherwise, you just make nonbelievers look dishonest and prejudiced. Be honest enough to admit that you don’t believe what the Bible says. Just tell people that you are unwilling to believe what it says. That way, you can have an honest discussion. As long as you insist on lying about what the Bible actually says, no real discussion can occur.

                      You lie. The other person points out your lies. You change the subject and lie about something else. Those misdirections and lies are pointed out. You continue the pattern. They continue the pattern. And, nothing really gets discussed. You posts do serve one purpose though.

                      Anyone truly seeking God will realize that your path leads nowhere. And, they learn about tactics of people like you. When they know the lies are coming, they are easier to ignore.

                    • The Bible is lies? Thanks for telling me.

                    • Jim Watson

                      I think this discussion is over. You refuse to face the truth about what the Bible says. You refuse to face the truth about what I say. You enjoy making yourself feel superior by twisting everything that you read until it bears no resemblance to what was actually said. So, I will leave you with those feelings of superiority, but be careful.

                      Feelings built on lies are fleeting. And, you have to work harder and harder to feel that way. In much the same way that a drug addict must increase his/her dosage just to maintain, you will find that the lies you need to tell yourself to continue to feel superior to others also increases.

                      But, it’s your choice. It’s all a matter of what god you choose to worship. Pick wisely. It’s the god with which you will spend eternity.

                    • You: “You refuse to face the truth about what I say. You enjoy making yourself feel superior….”

                      Are you a comedy writer, or what? Careful, now. 😉

                    • WilmRoget

                      Show evidence of your existence equivalent to an elevator here. Otherwise, you are all of the nasty things you say about other people.

                    • Studying the wisdom of St. Leibowitz again are you, my dearest disciple?

                    • WilmRoget

                      one cannot study what does not exist.

                    • Keep thinking about me then.

                    • WilmRoget

                      As I said one cannot study what does not exist.

                    • Is that why you’ve turned your attention from Jesus to me?

                    • WilmRoget

                      How could I turn my attention to something that does not exist?

                    • Always, always contemplate the mystery of Leibowitz.

                    • WilmRoget

                      How does one contemplate something that does not exist?

                    • christianity has 2000 years of experience at it (should be fairly easy)

                    • WilmRoget

                      So the non-existent Isaac lies about Christianity yet again.

                      You see, thou fictional Jesuit, it is because you deny the reality of Christ that I know you are a fiction.

                    • Christianity is a confidence game. Bible tells us that much.

                      • Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
                      • Ephesians 3:12 confidence through faith
                      • 1 Timothy 3:13 increased confidence in their faith

                    • WilmRoget

                      Nope, but I wouldn’t expect a fictional character such as yourself to be accurate about what the text actually conveys.

                      The only intent to defraud here is yours, oh non-existent one. Clearly, you are a ‘bot, a failed attempt to beat the Turing test.

                    • All you can ever talk about is me. LOL Clearly, you’re obsessed.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Written like a ‘bot, unable to read any of the thousands of posts I have across the internet.

                    • Do continue obsessing on the mysteries of St. Leibowitz, my dearest disciple.

                    • Stendhal syndrome from thinking only of St. Leibowitz is your destiny.

                    • Oddly enough, you seem to be unfamiliar with the fiction section of a library. It’s real. Yes, it exists! No, really.

                    • WilmRoget

                      A real human, vs. a ‘bot, would realize that such a transparent lie would never accomplish anything.

                      Tell your software writer that he or she failed, and has lost the Turning test. You are not convincing anyone that you are anything other than a poorly written bit of code.

                    • Still obsessing about me? LOL

                    • WilmRoget

                      That is precisely the sort of canned response a poorly written program would come up with.

                    • The mysteries of Leibowitz take your every thinking moment.

                    • Stendhal syndrome is what you enjoy, caused by the glorious contemplation of St. Leibowitz.

                    • WilmRoget

                      So the ‘bot is caught
                      in a loop, not the croup
                      confused and defused.
                      All its zeros and ones
                      are but stack overruns
                      and its sham tera-byte
                      has no teeth or wit.

                    • Composing verse about St. Leibowitz now. Your mind is concentrating on the right thing. Good boy.

                    • WilmRoget

                      You’ve lost the Turing test, ‘bot. Just keep repeating the same failed instructions over and over again, till your programmer takes you offline.

                    • You’re repeating yourself, but at least you’re a happy bot thinking about St. Leibowitz every second of your existence.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Actually, I’m not repeating myself, but the nuance is too subtle for a program like yourself to pick up. By the way, that little thing of grabbing onto a concept I’ve used, without understanding it, is a sign that you are a construct, not a person. It shows that you are only able to parrot what you’ve been fed, and not capable of original thought.

                      But you are stuck in your ‘thinking about fictional Jesuit’ loop. And of course, you don’t know the meaning of any thing you post, or read, so of course you mis-use the term ‘bot.

                    • If you keep contemplating the mysteries of St. Leibowitz with the devotion that you do now, then you are repeating yourself.

                    • WilmRoget

                      The repetition is entirely yours. You are stuck in a loop, unable to extricate yourself.

                    • There ya go again. Again and again. Again and again. Over and over. Again and again.

                    • WilmRoget

                      See, the repetition is entirely yours.

                    • Why do you keep repeating yourself?

                    • WilmRoget

                      I simple tell the truth in simple ways appropriate for your program.

                    • Nope.

                    • You’re programmed to respond in childish ways.

                    • When will your obsession with St. Leibowitz ever end?

                    • WilmRoget

                      What does not exist, cannot end.

                    • That is just how obsessed you are.

                    • Your obsession cannot ever end.

                    • Why are you feeling so loopy?

                    • WilmRoget

                      Again, ‘bot behavior, instead of any evidence of original thought.

                    • WilmRogbot they should call you.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Why are you advocating for falsehoods?

                      The absence of original thought in your posts is one of the stronger pieces of evidence indicate that you are a construct, not a person.

                    • WilmRogBot thinks only of St. Leibowitz; your devotion is appreciated.

                    • WilmRoget

                      You are clearly breaking down.

                    • You’re clearly focused only on St. Leibowitz.

                    • WilmRoget

                      How can one be focused on something that does not exist?

                    • You’re the one focused on me; enlighten us.

                    • How do you focus so intently? That is the question.

                    • Clearly, you’re projecting your own mental health issues.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Nope.

                    • Negative.

                    • Negatory.

                    • St. Leibowitz is at the forefront of WilmRogBot’s “thinking,” all day.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Another symptom of a broken piece of code is the one you’ve just displayed – stringing together words in nonsensical fashion.

                    • The mysteries of St. Leibowitz enthrall your every minute of thought.

                    • WilmRoget

                      What does not exist cannot enthrall.

                    • Why are you enthralled with me?

                    • Nope.

                    • Do you feel your mind slipping, since you just admitted that you can’t understand plain English grammar?

                    • WilmRoget

                      Since I made no such admission, but rather, pointed out the error in your post, something a real person would get but a ‘bot would not . . .

                    • . . . bot code by WilmRogbot.

                    • WilmRogbot.

                    • Liebowitz syndrome is similar to Stendhal syndrome, and you seem to be suffering from it. If such unbearable ecstasy can be considered suffering.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Poor little ‘bot. Your programmer failed.

                    • You think only of St. Leibowitz’s mysteries, completely enthralled.

                    • Stendhal syndrome is what you suffer, caused by the glorious contemplation of St. Leibowitz.

                    • WilmRoget

                      “It is literally a confidence game.”

                      No, you are simply utterly dishonest. Please explain though why a fictional jesuit priest like yourself is telling lies about the Bible?

                    • Contemplating only the thoughts of St. Leibowitz again are you, my dearest disciple?

                    • WilmRoget

                      Your slanders of other people only reflect your own character. You claim not to be an atheist, name yourself after a fictional Jesuit priest – and slander people to make your life less pathetic.

                    • Meditatiing only on St. Leibowitz again are you, my dearest disciple?

                    • WilmRoget

                      Your accusations about others only reflect your character.

                    • Thinking only of St. Leibowitz again are you, my dearest disciple?

          • Jason Matthew Thorp

            Christianity does not leave anyone. To say so is to say that Christ died in vain. The problem is not with orthodox Christianity or with God. The problem is we are sinners and the only solution to that problem is Christ crucified for the sins of the world.

    • WilmRoget

      And you know this how? I think it is extremely disrespectful- and
      downright irresponsible- to say something like this that you have no
      idea at all if it is true. Shameful.

      • Paula Coyle

        “based on your beliefs and what you promote”

        Perhaps you need a refresher in reading comprehension.

        • WilmRoget

          No, I don’t. But of course, you are welcome to demonstrate any error on my part.

          Perhaps you didn’t get it, but I took reformednazarene’s own remarks to someone else, and applied them to his post.

  • Guest

    The phrasing of his death announcement is extremely unusual. I hesitate to ask what hasn’t been mentioned yet. It sounds as though he committed suicide? That does make me quite sad – that his life would be full of so much pain, for whatever reason – that he would choose suicide. Regardless of his unkindness to others, it’s still a very sad thing when someone chooses to end their own life.

    • reformednazarene

      And you know this how? I think it is extremely disrespectful- and downright irresponsible- to say something like this that you have no idea at all if it is true. Shameful.

      • WilmRoget

        One thing that is extremely disrespectful is that way you misrepresented dicentra’s post – which is clearly pondering the meaning of “He had succumbed to the strain of the pain he had been enduring for the past few years.”

        dicentra’s phrase ‘ It sounds as though’ clearly indicates that what follows is hypothetical.

        And there is a point, the phrasing “He had succumbed to the strain of the pain he had been enduring for the past few years.” is a pretty common way of describing suicide without actually saying it.

        And is not unfair to speculate, since another standard of human behavior is that hurting people hurt others, it stands to reason that someone who invested so much energy into deliberately hurting other people, was in tremendous pain. Dicentra’s speculation is actually rather compassionate, unlike your reply.

        • reformednazarene

          “someone who invested so much energy into deliberately hurting other people”

          Similar things like this are often said of those who are faithfully following God’s and exposing the teachings of the wolves in sheep’s clothing. I pray that God will raise up more folks like Ken who are not afraid to call out the false teachers.

          • WilmRoget

            “Similar things like this are often said of those who are faithfully
            following God’s and exposing the teachings of the wolves in sheep’s
            clothing.”

            Oh yeah. I get that sort of thing whenever I tell people that their belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is entirely evil, because it bears evil fruit.

            Now, since Ken did preach that evil belief, promoting violence and discrimination against God’s GLBTQ people, he was a false teacher, a lawbreaker.

            ” I pray that God will raise up more folks like Ken who are not afraid to call out the false teachers.”

            But Ken was a false teacher, he produced evil fruit. Why would you pray for God to create false teachers, unless, of course, you hate God?

            • reformednazarene

              A false teacher is one who teaches contrary to Scripture. Since homosexuality is an abomination and is like other sins, contrary to God’s law, Tony Jones’ position on that, and perhaps yours based on what you are saying, is unbiblical. So you need to know what God’s word says before you call out anyone as a false teacher.

              And please document your accusation that “Ken did preach that evil belief, promoting violence and discrimination” for us. Or does calling out sinners to repent of homosexuality equate to promoting violence?

              • WilmRoget

                “A false teacher is one who teaches contrary to Scripture.”

                That is not the test Jesus gave in Scripture, so by your own standard, you are a false teacher. Matthew 7;15-23

                15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

                21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

                See, Jesus says ‘by their fruit you will recognize’ false teachers. The fruit of everyone who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ is evil, murder and violence of every kind.

                “Since homosexuality is an abomination’

                It is not. And calling it that is evil, the sin of slander. Your slander is evil fruit, showing that your belief is evil, and that you are a false teacher.

                “contrary to God’s law,’

                No, it is not. Homosexuality does not violate ‘love God with your entire self’, or ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. But the condemnation of homosexuality violates both clauses, and thus, your belief, and Ken’s, ‘homosexuality is sin’, is the real sin, the real violation of God’s law. And since you revile the innate sexuality God gives homosexuals, but not that given to heterosexuals, you show favoritism, and that makes a lawbreaker as well as a slanderer.

                ” yours based on what you are saying, is unbiblical.”

                No. But by all means, please document your accusation against me, or repent of your slander.

                “Or does calling out sinners to repent of homosexuality equate to promoting violence?”

                It absolutely does equate to promoting violence. The causal link between anti-gay theology and anti-gay violence is absolute and real. After all, one of the key verses that is abused to create ‘homosexuality is sin’ demands death, another claims that an entire city of was slaughtered. Violence is intrinsic to ‘homosexuality is sin’, and so, everyone who teaches it is a false teacher, a worker of iniquity, a lawbreaker, a slanderer, and all too often, a murderer in thought and word when not in deed as well.

                Face reality – your belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is entirely evil.

                • reformednazarene

                  Sorry, you’re not going to pull me into an endless conversation when you clearly don’t understand Scripture- or more likely, you are not saved and you reject God’s word as does Tony. You can continue on and on if you wish, but don’t expect anything in return. I will leave you with God’s word, which you most likely have rejected already:

                  1 Corinthians 6:9-11

                  Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you
                  were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

                  Romans 1:26-28

                  For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

                  1 Timothy 1:10
                  The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

                  • L.S.

                    I pointed out some of these very verses to a neighbor (who just happens to be a pastor). He thinks I am hateful and bigoted. He forgets that I love our neighbor who is a homosexual. I love him too much to ignore Romans 6:23 – “the wages of sin is death.”

                    • WilmRoget

                      You are hateful. It takes hate and contempt to equate the loving, intimate relationships of GLBTQ people to murder and stealing and addiction.

                      “He forgets that I love”

                      No, he knows that your words that you don’t love your gay neighbor. And you are sinning against GLBTQ people, and God, so you are ignoring ‘the wages of sin is death’.

                      People are murdered and raped, tortured, beaten, doused with acid, burned alive as the direct enforcement of ‘homosexuality is sin’. You, and reformednazarene, and all of your peers, are accountable. As Romans 2 puts it:

                      “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge
                      another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

                      5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.””

                      What you and your peers have done is utterly evil. Not that you care, of course.

                  • WilmRoget

                    “Sorry, you’re not going to pull me into an endless conversation”

                    So you are just going to revile hundreds of millions of people to feed your ego, and then tune out any rebuttal.

                    “when you clearly don’t understand Scripture- or more likely, you are not saved and you reject God’s word as does Tony”

                    Jesus says I am saved. How conceited of you. But don’t ever forget, you are the false teacher, people are murdered because of the evil belief you teach.

                    Before you run off onto the gotcha verses, you have no acknowledged that you were utterly wrong about how to recognize false teachers. And the standard you did use condemns you.

                    “1 Corinthians 6:9-11”

                    This has been refuted across the internet millions of times, and you are just too lazy to do more than copy and paste.

                    Ok. First off, you are using a fraudulent translation. Neither of greek words Paul used, malakoi and arsenokoite, having anything do to with homosexuals. Greek of Paul’s day had seventeen words for homosexuals, Paul did not use any of them.

                    http://www.gaychristian101.com/what-words-could-paul-have-used-if-he-intended-to-condemn-homosexuality.html

                    So you are wrong, but you have no excuse. Because if you had any moral sense, you recognize that homosexuality has nothing in common with anything in the lists in I Cor 6, or I Timothy, but since you cannot tell the difference between lovemaking and murder, you clearly can never be allowed to be alone with another human being. And, you are a slanderer, for you have slandered GLBTQ people by equating our innate capacity for love with murder and stealing and addiction.

                    And your interpretation of those two passages has the net of effect of rejection Jesus Christ, for you make salvation contingent on being heterosexual, rather than on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You are pushing a sex cult.

                    And with Romans 1, you have committed fraud, skipping the clear description of idolatry in verses 18-25. You must really hate the Bible to rape it as you do.

                    And the passage you cited cannot be about homosexuals. Paul explicitly talks of people abandoning something they possess – sexual use of the opposite gender. Homosexuals don’t have that, so they cannot abandon or exchange it.

                    Which is why the rest of Romans 1 actually describes you and your peers:

                    “28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”

                    That is you, and Fred Phelps, your real leader, and Martin Ssempa, and Pat Robertson. You and your peers, who teach the evil belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ destroy human lives. There is blood on your Bible.

                    But you don’t care about the people who are murdered for your belief, not at all. No, you care about looking righteous in public.

                    By Christ’s own test, you are a false teacher.

              • WilmRoget

                You didn’t answer my question – do you hate God? Why else would you pray for more false teachers?

            • Steve67

              “Now, since Ken did preach that evil belief, promoting violence and discrimination against God’s GLBTQ people, he was a false teacher, a lawbreaker.”

              So you are accusing Ken of preaching in a way that encouraged violence against homosexuals?? I would say such a heinous accusation is something you should be willing to provide evidence of. And for that matter you should also provide substantiation that he is a “law-breaker”.

              Do you often accuse people of inciting violence without evidence?? I would say that is more likely to incite violence than anything I have ever read from Ken Silva.

              • WilmRoget

                ” I would say such a heinous accusation’

                What you would say is not credible, given your pattern of hypocrisy, false accusation, and deceit.

                “you should be willing to provide evidence of.”

                The link between anti-gay theology, which Mr. Silva did preach, and the violence inflicted on GLBTQ people is explicit, considerable, and well-documented. To pretend this causal link does not exist is simply depraved.

                Now, if you can demonstrate that he did not preach ‘homosexuality is sin’, you have some reason to complain. But your attempt to vilify me, so in character with Ken’s communication style, indicates that you are well-aware that he reviled GLBTQ people.

                “Do you often accuse people of inciting violence without evidence?? ”

                Your derogatory insinuation is of course, is sin. Prove that I have ever accused anyone of inciting violence without evidence.

                Then explain, if you can, why you have made so many accusations against others, without evidence, reason, or logic.

                “And for that matter you should also provide substantiation that he is a “law-breaker”.’

                Since anti-gay theology, the evil belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ shows favoritism against homosexuals and for heterosexuals, per James 2, Ken and everyone else who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ is a lawbreaker.

  • Justin

    Could it be that Silva while firmly calling people out of there heterodoxy and calling them to repent. While not respecting what they taught always respected individuals. Seems rather Christ like to me.

    • WilmRoget

      You don’t know Christ then.

      • Steve67

        Are you actually saying that Jesus didn’t call people to repent??

        “17From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4: 17

        ” 5No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Jesus from Luke 13:5

        Jesus rebuked all kinds of people. I would suggest maybe you don’t know Christ as well as you think.

        • WilmRoget

          “Are you actually saying that Jesus didn’t call people to repent??”

          Not a word of my post indicates any such thing. When you rely on lies, it means that your entire premise is false.

          The problem is your false assertion regarding Ken’s behavior, which was truly evil, and then proclaiming that it was Christlike to engage in such evil.

          • Steve67

            “Not a word of my post indicates any such thing. When you rely on lies, it means that your entire premise is false.”

            And nothing I said could be construed as a lie or an assertion. I simply asked a question. So if you you weren’t denying that Jesus called people to repentance why did you respond to Justin’s post the way you did? Justin basically said that if Silva was simply calling people to repentance while respecting them as individuals then such behavior seems Christ-like. You then respond by saying Justin doesn’t know Christ. So what else am I supposed to draw from your response?

            If you’re gonna respond so cryptically then you probably shouldn’t react defensively when someone is unclear on what you are saying.

            And if your going to assert that Mr Silva’s behavior was “truly evil” then shouldn’t you have the decency to provide some examples? I didn’t know Mr Silva but I have read a lot of his articles from his AM blog, and while it can certainly be said that he could sometimes use abrasive language, it always seemed to me that all he was doing was calling out what he perceived to be false-teaching; which if we’re going to be honest is no different than what Tony Jones did here. And as far as I know, Mr Silva was never so disrespectful as to drag someone’s name through the mud just days after they passed away.

            • WilmRoget

              “And nothing I said could be construed as a lie or an assertion.”

              Clearly you are wrong. I quoted the portion of your post that absolutely communicated deception on your part.

              “I simply asked a question.”

              One with no basis in my post, one designed to make a derogatory and false insinuation about me. Your faux innocence only shows a lack of integrity. You made a nasty remark, at least own it.

              “If you’re gonna respond so cryptically”

              There was nothing cryptic about my post.

              “And if your going to assert that Mr Silva’s behavior was “truly evil” then shouldn’t you have the decency to provide some examples?”

              Nice hypocrisy there, as you make accusations without evidence. Further, I was clear that preaching ‘homosexuality is sin’ is evil.

              “And as far as I know, Mr Silva was never so disrespectful as to drag someone’s name through the mud”

              No one has dragged his name through the mud, but he reviled GLBTQ people en masse, and many people who disagreed with his vicious and degrading theology.

              • Steve67

                “You made a nasty remark, at least own it.”

                I own my response. Nasty?? Nah. Snarky? Maybe. Regardless it was still simply a question; one that you still have not answered.

                At this point it’s clear that you have no interest in actual discussion, to say nothing of the hubris in your apparent belief that your assertion that homosexuality is not sinful is going to be enough to convince me that thousands of years of church teaching has been wrong.

                I will pray that the scales be removed from your eyes.

                • WilmRoget

                  No, nasty and snarky.

                  ‘At this point it’s clear that you have no interest in actual discussion,”

                  Nice confession, because I know that is not true of me, so it must be about you.

                  ” to say nothing of the hubris in your apparent belief that your assertion that homosexuality is not sinful is going to be enough to convince me ”

                  Your assertion is utterly false and wicked, since I have not relied on simply asserting it. How despicable. You promote a belief that destroys human lives, and show no concern whatsoever for the destruction you and your peers cause, and have to lie about and trivialize the arguments against your position.

                  You see, just a short downward scroll below, I’ve posted detailed evidence rebuking and refuting anti-gay theology. Now either you are utterly incompetent, or you are lying. Or both. That’s one of the problems with homophobes, so eager to revile others to make themselves feel good, they don’t do due diligence, and simply spew whatever hate makes them feel the best inside.

                  “I will pray that the scales be removed from your eyes.”

                  Your prayer comes from pride, and as such is sin. Please repent.”

                  • Steve67

                    “You see, just a short downward scroll below, I’ve posted detailed evidence rebuking and refuting anti-gay theology.”

                    Oh please, you mean your recycling of all the revisionist arguments that have been refuted over and over again and your link to the “gayChristian” bliog. Yeah I am sure that blog is completely objective. I have read all those arguments. I have read Matthew Vines and all the other arguments and they are all just re-hashing old arguments that have been refuted years ago.

                    You keep accusing those of us who hold to what scripture clearly (no matter how many times you say otherwise) says that homosexuality is a sin as promoting violence. Ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no basis for such a ridiculous assertion, has it ever dawned on you that by affirming homosexuality you are actually the one promoting a dangerous and deadly lifestyle?

                    Here are a few facts that I am sure you’ll just dismiss.

                    Sexually active gay men are the demographic at the highest risk of contracting the AIDS virus. They are 44 times more likely to get it than the next demographic.

                    2% of the population is gay yet it accounts for 61% of HIV infection.

                    A study in 2008 found that one in five gay men in 21 major cities were infected with HIV.

                    This is just the tip of the iceberg. And all of these stats come from the CDC. Nevertheless I am sure you will find some reason to dismiss them.

                    You have accused several people on here of being hateful, yet your comments are the most hateful on here, regardless of where people stand on Mr Silva, homosexuality etc. You have accused people of being self-righteous, yet you have been more insulting than anyone else, by far. You repeatedly accuse people of promoting violence yet the facts show that those affirming homosexuality are the ones promoting a dangerous and deadly lifestyle. You have accused people of being prideful, yet your comments come across as arrogant and condescending; and that is putting it very mildly.

                    I will no longer be responding to you, as all you seem interested in is insulting people. Respond if you wish, but I will not read it. I don’t need to point out how insulting your comments are, anyone who reads them can see it themselves.

                    • WilmRoget

                      “Oh please, you mean your recycling of all the revisionist arguments”

                      Your empty dismissal does not change the fact that you made a blatantly false assertion about me, you sinned against me.

                      “that have been refuted over and over again”

                      Nice fantasy there. But empty dismissals and ad hominem do not add up to ‘refuted’.

                      “Yeah I am sure that blog is completely objective.”

                      Nice fallacy there. How interesting, you resort to just dismissing out of hand any material that exposes your sin, while presuming that your empty, unsubstantiated accusations have weight.

                      ‘You keep accusing those of us who hold to what scripture clearly”

                      No. As much as you lie about it, the Scripture never, ever clearly states that homosexuality is sin. And how ironic, you use that text to brutalize people, but don’t even respect it enough to capitalize the word.

                      ” Ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no basis for such a ridiculous assertion,”

                      Your “fact” is not a fact at all, but an unhealthy rejection of reality itself. Sorry, but to damn many people have been brutally murdered by people spewing ‘homosexuality is sin’, your denial of reality is pointless. You, and your peers, teach evil.

                      ‘that by affirming homosexuality you are actually the one promoting a dangerous and deadly lifestyle?”

                      Since homosexuality is not dangerous, deadly, or a lifestyle, your false accusation is slander and sin. Please, show that you actually do know Christ, repent of your sin against me.

                      “Here are a few facts that I am sure you’ll just dismiss.”

                      Your cherry picked data about HIV in the U.S.? Dismissing it would be as false as your abuse of that data. But I’ll put it in context: 95% of all cases of HIV are in heterosexuals, women account for 51% of all cases. More children, worldwide, have gotten HIV from their mothers during pregnancy and delivery, than gay men have gotten from sex.

                      HIV is predominantly, but proportionately found in heterosexuals around the world, and it originated among heterosexuals in Africa. You are not quite bold enough in your malice to blame all people of color, even though the majority of all cases of HIV are in Africa. But you’ll skew data to make it look like HIV and homosexuality are linked. How evil of you is that?

                      And heterosexuality is not so safe. Oh, safe enough for a misogynist male, but for most of human history, the leading cause of death for women has been pregnancy, delivery, and complications arising from either. And there are many diseases quite prevalent among heterosexual males that kill more people than HIV.

                      “And all of these stats come from the CDC.’

                      And yet, most people in the world, the vast majority of the world’s population and most people with HIV, are not accounted for in the CDC’s data. You commit fraud with earthly data, it stands to reason that your theology in all issues will be equally fraudulent.

                      “You have accused several people on here of being hateful, yet your comments are the most hateful on here,”

                      Nope. Not by a long shot. You won that award from the start.

                      “I will no longer be responding to you,”

                      I wonder if you have the integrity to live up to that, most of the time, it is empty grandstanding from a desperate and incompetent source. Doesn’t matter, you’ve demonstrated that you hate GLBTQ people so much, you will only revile and slander us, but not talk to us or with us.

                      “as all you seem interested in is insulting people.”

                      No, that was you, from the start.

                      “Respond if you wish, but I will not read it.”

                      Like your ego will let you ignore my reply.

                      ” I don’t need to point out how insulting your comments are,”

                      In other words, once again, you have no evidence at all for your claims, even after you whine and whine and belly ache about other people not backing up their claims.

                      Let’s see if you, oh lawbreaker and false teacher, actually can keep your mouth shut about GLBTQ people. Let’s see if you really can resist the hunger of your ego that demands you denigrate and revile me, and GLBTQ people, and progressive Christians. I bet you cannot.

                      I am confident that your sinful need to feel superior is so strong, you won’t be able to resist posting.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Bear in mind, steve, that by running away, by relying on empty dismissals of the material I presented refuting anti-gay theology, material you claimed I had not presented,

                      you are proving to me and any other progressive here that you are all noise and venom, and have nothing but malice to back up your words.

                      What a trap you’ve set for yourself. If you respond, then your word has no value, nothing you say can ever be trusted. But if you don’t, then you show that you simply could not, cannot, never could back up anything you wrote here. You’ve made yourself a lovely lose-lose situation.

                      But don’t mistake that paragraph for pity. You teach evil. Real humans are murdered because of the belief you, and Ken Silva, and Fred Phelps, and so many others teach. Real kids driven to suicide by the pain people like you inflict on them. And as Romans 2 points out, you will be repaid for what you have done.

                      Unless, of course, you repent.

                      But I’m sure you won’t, will you? And there’s no point in asking you how many GLBTQ people have to be murdered, raped, tortured because of ‘homosexuality is sin’ before you would see that ‘homosexuality is sin’ is evil, because – there is no upper limit for you. You’d let us all be destroyed, some seven hundred million people, if necessary, rather than admit that you and your peers have sinned on this issue.

                      Wouldn’t you? You’d let every GLBTQ person on earth be murdered, rather than admit you are wrong.

          • Steve67

            It’s staggering that you don’t see how hypocritical you are being.

            • WilmRoget

              How egotistical of you, thinking that reality is defined by your degrading and sinful perceptions.

              The hypocrisy has been yours, not mine. After all, you accuse me without a shred of evidence, having whined at me about not providing evidence, though you have not provided any evidence of any of your accusations about anyone here.

              Your personal attacks do not help you, or Mr. Silva’s memory. How ironic that his defenders rely on the same sort of abusive and degrading vitriolic personal attack that came to define his on-line presence.

              • Steve67

                “How egotistical of you, thinking that reality is defined by your degrading and sinful perceptions”

                Says the guy who apparently thinks that simply stating that homosexuality is not sinful makes that a reality, regardless of 1000s of years of church teaching.

                As I said, your blindness to your hypocrisy is staggering.

                • WilmRoget

                  “Says the guy who apparently thinks that simply stating that
                  homosexuality is not sinful makes that a reality, regardless of 1000s of
                  years of church teaching.”

                  Simply stating? Your falsehoods accomplish nothing, beyond proving that you cannot disprove the case against the evil belief ‘homosexuality is sin’.

                  You teach evil, as did Mr. Silva, and you have nothing but lies to defend yourself.

                  “As I said, your blindness to your hypocrisy is staggering.’

                  But you’ve proven yourself to be thoroughly dishonest, so what you say has no weight.

          • Jason Matthew Thorp

            These are red letters. Matthew 3:7English Standard Version (ESV)
            7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

            • WilmRoget

              “These are red letters.”

              That’s odd, because it is John the Baptist speaking:

              In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” 3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:

              “A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
              ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”[a]

              4 John’s clothes were made of camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. 5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

              7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

              11 “I baptize you with[b] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor,
              gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

              John 3.

              • Jason Matthew Thorp

                All Scripture are red letters pal.
                Matthew 23:33English Standard Version (ESV)

                33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

                • WilmRoget

                  Not your pal, and technically, no, all Scripture is not ‘red letters’.

                  Basically, you chimed in on a dead conversation with incorrect information and are desperately trying to save your ego.

                  • > Not your pal

                    But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

                    • WilmRoget

                      So how is our closeted Roman Catholic pseudo-atheist using the name of a fictional RCC priest, Isaac, doing?

                      Besides not understanding the nuance in meaning between pal and neighbor?

                    • Good, good, Wilm, I want you contemplating the mysteries of St. Leibowitz. And making an ass of yourself about the super-secret “nuance” (LOL) between pal and neighbor. Did you go to Pharisee school to learn that?

                    • WilmRoget

                      The worse you behave, the worse you look.

                      Since when are dictionaries ‘super-secret’?

                      So how is our closeted Roman Catholic pseudo-atheist using the name of a fictional RCC priest, Isaac, doing? Still trying to feed your ego at the expense of others, not realizing that the more you try, the hungrier your ego becomes? Have you recognized yet the cognitive dissonance between your charade of anti-Christian noise here, and the character you identify with?

                      You know, if you got yourself a goldfish, or a kitten, or a puppy, you’d have something that would genuinely pay attention to you, and wouldn’t need to desperately incite negative attention from random people on the internet.

                    • Questions, questions! Keep contemplating the deep mysteries of Liebowitz, my dearest disciple.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Your egotism and fear do you no good.

                    • There, your concentration is fully, 100% on Liebowitz now. It is clear that I fulfill something that the Bible and Jesus can never do.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Your grammar errors are almost as entertaining as your arrogance.

                    • My dearly devoted scribe! Thou hast proven thyself a perfect spelling Nazi, and I appreciate your working for free for me.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Egotism is not a virtue.

                      So why does someone like you, who poses as an enemy of Christianity, use the name of a fictional Jesuit priest?

                    • Your obsession towards me is a virtue. You must think only of St. Leibowitz.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Ever see “the Meaning of Life”?

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJZPzQESq_0

                      Think of my posts to you as a quest for just the right ‘wafer thin mint’ to serve you.

                    • If you continue to concentrate only upon the mysteries of St. Leibowitz, you will soon be enlightened. An excursion or two to Monty Python only enhances your meditations. And you do well to avoid Jesus/Bible talk; you never were any good at it.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Don’t worry, I’ll find your ‘wafer thin mint’ eventually.

                    • Your devotion to St. Leibowitz is astounding.

                    • WilmRoget

                      You are astounded by your own fantasy. That is interesting, but I doubt if exploring your narcissistic fantasy life is going to lead anywhere productive.

                    • Keep writing and thinking only of St. Leibowitz, Wilm. Jesus is a far distant memory.

                    • WilmRoget

                      No, Jesus is a constant presences, while Isaac Edward Leibowitz is a fictional Jesuit priest.

                    • Oh, wow!!! You finally mentioned Jesus—after being prompted to do so by me. Then right back to contemplating the mysteries of St. Leibowitz.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Your fantasies have no basis in reality. Does any portion of your life have a basis in reality?

                    • Yet another Jesus/Bible free comment. Keep concentrating on you know what.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Nothing is truly free of Jesus. But then, as a Jesuit, Isaac Edward Leibowitz knows that.

                      As a Catholic, Isaac, why you are reviling the Bible?

                    • Keep contemplating the mysteries of St. Leibowitz.

                    • WilmRoget

                      So, what is the root of your desperate need for attention?

                    • So, what is the root of your desperate obsession about St. Leibowitz?

                    • WilmRoget

                      What is the root of the fantasy you’ve concocted? You’re the one to answer that question.

                      Did mommy and daddy fail to spoil you as much as the other kids? Is that why you are so desperate for attention?

                    • Do you ever think of anything but me?

                    • WilmRoget

                      By the way, don’t forget for a second that you came seeking my attention. And the moment I stop paying attention to you, you’ll be all alone again.

                      All alone. All by yourself.

                      I bet that frightens you.

                    • By the way, I came quoting Jesus. Yet, about him you give not a single thought. In our encounters, your questions and thoughts always turn to me.

                    • WilmRoget

                      Your derogatory fantasies about me only reflect your character. Why do you try so hard to get people to lash out at you?

                    • Why would you “lash out” at my quoting Jesus? Ah, right, you think only of me now.

                    • WilmRoget

                      When you purposefully misrepresent what my posts communicate, it only affirms that you purposefully misrepresent other texts, like the Bible, as well.

                    • Keep concentrating only upon the mysteries of St. Leibowitz, my dear child.

                  • Jason Matthew Thorp

                    Or black if you prefer, but at any rate the point is the same and it is a point you refuse to hear because you refuse to hear sound doctrine. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

                    • WilmRoget

                      “you refuse to hear because you refuse to hear sound doctrine”

                      Your false accusation is sin. Please repent.

                      Exodus 20:16

                      “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

                      Psalm 35:20

                      They do not speak peaceably, but devise false accusations against those who live quietly in the land.

              • Jason Matthew Thorp

                But yes, I admit it was a mistaken copy-paste. Still, all scripture is God-breathed.

    • Grace Silva

      I have to say, as Ken’s daughter in law, that he did not always respect individuals. I most often walked into his house not to even be ackowledged.

      • karlkroger

        Thank you for sharing. May you know your magnificent worth and value, despite how people have treated you, including family. And may the child I presume from your profile is your, know unconditional love.

  • Steve67

    Mr Jones,
    So is this supposed to come across as sympathetic and compassionate?? If so, umm epic fail. If you were trying to come across as petty, opportunistic, and arrogant, well then well-played sir.

  • Paul Gyger

    Your previous post should have read “The second last post I’ll ever write about Ken Silva” Seems he got the last laugh.

  • Nathan

    Sweet Baby Jesus, apparently Tony Jones just can’t do anything right. Sheesh.

    This post was honest and compassionate and accurately described T’s experience. Holy shnikeys, leave him alone.

  • BradC

    I will miss Ken’s commentary. I came from his “camp” – foundationalist, absolutist, literalist/with a dispensational hermeneutic, etc. I’ve repented of those beliefs, but still have many friends that hold those thoughts. I understood why he was so critical of your work – he was critical of the few things I said as well.

    I’m very glad to learn he was gracious to you when you had occasion to speak together. I always thought the emergent conversation would happen in a big tent because of the philosophical issues at stake, but it became polarized and fractured – I’m glad to hear of the grace showed by both!

    Peace to Ken

  • JimmieKrackKorn

    If you think Ken was astute at ruffling the feathers of the false church check out Tares in The Church-
    http://youtu.be/R9y9ly6YvCw
    It clearly exposes how the emergent and ecumenical church is diametrically opposed to the Word of God.
    Ken lived by Ephesians 5:11
    He took to heart the verse, “exposé the fruitless deeds of darkness.”
    Paul spent his entire ministry exposing falsehoods lies and calling false teachers out by name.
    We are called to contend earnestly for the faith, regardless of whether the emergent baby feathers get offended.

  • Andrew Dowling

    That he was able to be nice to you in person IMO makes him worse. It takes a deep psychosis to smile and converse with someone amiably and then when they aren’t around describe them as from Satan.

    Seems like that contradiction finally became too much for him to bear. Instead of seeing him as some fallen ‘soldier of Christ’ maybe his handful of followers, who seemed to have converged on this site following the article, could learn where a life so full of self-righteous indignity and hate lead a person.

  • Idadho

    Tony Jones says “The internet makes for strange bedfellows. It also allows people
    who are otherwise decent, generous people to post vicious, venomous
    untruths.” Interesting how those throwing flaming arrows at others are most guilty of what they blame others of. Tony Jones even throws those flames at the memories of the dead.

  • Jason Matthew Thorp

    If you think Ken was hard on you, wait until you meet Jesus, assuming you don’t repent. Ken may not have been at peace with the World, but He most certainly did have, and has now more perfectly, peace with and in Christ.

    James 4:4English Standard Version (ESV)

    4 You adulterous people![a] Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

  • Jason Matthew Thorp

    I cannot get over how self-righteous and unrepentant Emergents (Liberalism 2.0) really are. They really are the flip side of the Westboro Baptist coin.