“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.”
(Jesus, Luke 10:21)
I find it telling that God hides himself and true understanding from “the wise and understanding” (the smart, the educated, the strong), but reveals himself to “little children” (the ignorant, the weak, the needy).
The Bible itself admits that Christianity doesn’t stand up to those who are searching for truth, who are educated, who are open-minded. God has hidden the teachings of Jesus from the wise and instead reveals them to the ignorant and misguided.
Of course this is what you’d expect the Bible to teach. The early Christians generally weren’t educated rich folks. They were poor and uneducated. It didn’t appeal to the wise. It appealed to uneducated fisherman and people like the Apostle Paul who saw visions. It’s comforting for Christians to know that the wise object because God is blinding their eyes, not because there are any real objections to Christianity.
This teaching often fills Christians with pride. It comes out especially among fundamentalists, who look down on those who are educated. They believe Christians are the really smart ones. They’re the ones who understand the universe and God, not those stupid scientists. And they’re the ones who know all about the life and teachings of Jesus, not those stupid secular bible scholars and historians.
I’m throwing my lot in with the “wise” scientists and scholars, not the “little children” who can be convinced to believe anything.
Unreasonable,
When Jesus spoke of the “wise and understanding” he was not speaking of people with high intellect. He is speaking of those who think they are wise in spiritual things but are actually filled with pride. He was speaking of the Scribes and the Pharisees.
God resists the proud but give grace to the humble. It is very possible to be gifted with high intelligence and yet remain humble about yourself and recognize that your intelligence is a gift from God and that you had nothing to do with receiveing it. The opposite is also very possible, to be stupid and yet be full of pride.
Within the church there are all types of I. Q. levels but there can never be any who are filled with pride because God hides Himself from them.
My impression has always been that he was referring to those with very heady book knowledge, more along the lines of being “learned” in regard to the matters of Judaism.
There is a pretty intense scriptural training and a great deal of informational knowledge that is studied. Torah, Talmud, Midrash, Mystical writings and Oral traditions that have been greatly cataloged beyond what we call the Old Testament. With this interpretation, Jesus would have been referring to those who may be able to cite scripture down to the letter, and even reason from these citation, but have no actual real-life experience of the benefits and practical meanings of scripture and religious practices. He similarly spoke ill of those who guard the gates of heaven from the masses and don’t even enter themselves. Those people are missing the entire point of the teaching that he was trying to give with his life (the whole of it, not just the getting crucified part).
Along similar lines, one could argue that being “resurrected in the flesh” does not equate to any post portem events, but rather awakening to one’s own life and living it fully and appreciatively. The bible becomes a lot more interesting when you quit making the accounts of miracles out to be a necessity. I mean the mythos is pretty nice in an allegorical sense (depending on how you look at it), but there’s no need to assume anything particularly miraculous happened. I personally don’t put too much stock in 2000+ year old non-eye-witness accounts of miraculous events.
Thanks for commenting, Russ. You may be right Jesus wasn’t speaking about people of high intellect, but as a rule many people with high intellect question Christianity. That’s why so many Christians only read Christian books and Christian scientists.
I disagree about your point about pridefulness, though. If the church can’t be filled with people who are prideful, how come many of the Christians I know are prideful? They’re very certain of their beliefs, don’t hesitate to tell your you’re wrong, think they know better than you, and won’t even consider being wrong about essential spiritual matters.
For instance, would anything cause you to question your belief in God or Jesus? Could any event in your life happen that you couldn’t explain away?
Are we being unreasonable or are we just looking for excuses to deny God in our existence. He commanded us by his laws to do certain things in this plane of existence. We have two choices: 1. find every excuse in the world to deny his existence, thus hoping to escape the responsibility of executing his directives. Treason, insubordination, subversion and espionage come to mind: as well as: the usual punishments for such activities ( keep that in mind). 2. do as commanded and gain more than our petty existence on the plane could ever bring. Thanks to Adam and Eve we were given knowledge and the right to choose Good or Evil. We, also inherited the right to die and to be judged on how we lived, what we did or didn’t do and the main one-do we have the same attitude as the Fallen Angels did when God cast them down from Heaven. Unreasonable Faith, since you run with the smart people crowd, this should be an easy equation for you to analyze and compute. Will you be as the Fallen Angels or will you be found worthy?
I’m sorry, but you have it backwards: With the information and evidence currently available, it’s theists who have to find excuses to justify their position. to be atheist isa perfectly reasonable consequence of knowing the evidence. You talk a lot about your divine dictator: Prove to me that he gave the commands that you seem so sure he issued.
And nix on the evangelism. That stuff works on the uneducated and the desperate.
Custador-No one is preaching to you, nor is anyone twisting your arm to agree with one persons beliefs. By whose perspective are you inferring that there is data and evidence that there is a flip side to this perspective. I know that there are a large group of atheist people in the world that have lifestyles and personal directives in their view of themselves and their environment than do most “so called Christians”. As with any belief there are drawbacks and short comings that are inherent when one looks at the human element. All I can offer is non-threat perspectives and windows for others to look through. I am a seeker of truth and have found many falacies in Biblical parables which are based on the Catholic and the King James leaning Churches that are actually based on historical deals that were worked out with the status quo power at that time. Keep seeking and LIVE.
So you read the original scriptures in greek, latin and aramaic?
Very impressive. The original bible was the vulgate and was composed by the Catholics. Before that there was no bible since people just followed whatever they felt like. Infact, that was the reason the bible was created. The romans were sick and tired of dealing with christians whose beliefs didn’t match up with each other so they just got everyone to throw out their scriptures and gave them a universal book assembled out of existing scriptures at the Council Of Nicea.
They then squashed any opponents of this book such as the Arians. Any bibles that follow this one are deviating more from the originals since all bibles are based of this bible. The King James fanatics actually stand up and say “God Inspired a Second Bible” which is contrived since “we know when the second one was written”.
I do like the fact that no one stands up and says “The Guttenberg Bible is what I follow. That was a revolutionary bible. It’s the reason religion’s strangle hold is weaker. Because people could afford bibles and make their own decisions on them after that.”
1. Your logic means original sin does not exist. The sin lies in God’s hands. If you left a knife around a baby, it is you who is at fault for the ensuing injuries. If knowledge were as deadly as claimed, leaving it in full reach of two people without intelligence and knowledge would be a stupid idea.
2. Evil? For not believing in any god? Maybe you are the evil ones. Did you ever consider that maybe the Hindus are right and that all the abrahamic religions are just fighting over different coloured hats? Or that Siddartha’s philosophy is right and dharma is more important than your rigid rules. Or just maybe, it is the atheists who don’t believe in any of the gods that have existed.
There is no statement that you can give that proves the existence of just your god. Every argument you make, you make for every god that has ever existed in human thought.
No, I do not read the original scriptures from the direct text. As I went through college, I started to question a lot of the standard status quo beliefs that lays the basis for our society. There are many religious beliefs that are older than the historical accountings of the Judeo Christian teachings. At times I surmise that the Catholic monks pulled from these older faiths in their quest for the Church to gain prominence and power amongst the masses. I wonder if it is all a sham and a tool utilized by those in power to enslave those that are subserviant to them. I will use Constantine of Rome and the ensuing acceptance of Christianity as a state religion as an example. The Emperor and the State ruled Rome and all its territories and the Church ruled the hearts and minds of men. As long as the Churches teachings aligned with and promoted its followers to be subserviant to the Emperor and Rome then the deal was solid. Reminds me of the Give unto Ceasar and the give unto God teachings.
I could go on and on about this, BUT I do have my faith and I do stand by it. What churches and governments do with the fundemental truths and beliefs to utilize Faiths as a control and a enslavement tool to accomplish their agenda’s of moving the masses in a paticular direction has been around for a long time-predates Biblical time frame.
Your points 1 and 2, I found interesting. There is the original sin that man is bound to which dates back to the Garden of Eden. Whether or not the New Testament is true or not is not the point that is being made. I will use a parable to demonstrate this. If I go to a college or university, large sums of money is spent by myself to gain an education, and I use a large portion of my natural life span to gain it; then it would be a wasted journey involving time and resources if I did not apply it to my life and to my environment. Maybe, I will use this knowledge and power to enslave those around me. This is a fact that has driven societies through the ages and must be an enherent bias that even drives the sexes (Ying and Yang). I am not putting down anyones faith, but I think it is time to go back to the basics or original texts of our faiths and find out “what has been messed with through translations”. Peace to you and remember to smell the flowers.
I like the way you say
and then
Don’t you see the dissonance?
Your argument has already been addressed.
I’m not sure why every time someone brings up Pascal’s wager they think it’s some clever new argument we haven’t seen before.
Nox- philosophy is a tool to pursue truth and enlightenment. It does has its fallbacks in which we can totally miss the point. Much in the way statistics can be skewed towards making one finding or perspective look more favorable than the others. Pascal has a point, but it doesn’t play out in the finer or more intricate manipulation of variables. Keep searching and remember to LIVE life.
Error: Obfuscating babble cannot be translated.
I hope that you found your Sunny Day and shook off the madness and challeges that over took you in your response. Peace to you and try to remember to smell the flowers.
There will come a day when there will be no floweres and we will all pray for peace.
That’s called winter, nimrod.
Unreasonable,
We are all filled with pride (arrogance) at times and the church is no exception but I am referring to a specific type of pride that God hates. It is a pride that does not consider the possibility that the expanse of the creation could be the work of a Being who is much more powerful and much wiser then man. It is this pride within man that God resists and hates.
Perhaps it is true that the I. Q. level in the church is lower than the average I. Q. I don’t know of any studies. Keep in mind that those with high I. Q.’s typically attend higher education where they are taught that God does not exist while still in there formative years.
I question my beliefs constantly but less and less as time passes because they have withstood the test of time.
Could an event happen that I could not explain? I am not sure I understand your question. I assume that you are referring to an event that is contrary to my beliefs. Certainly, there are expectations that get shattered by the realities of life but can there be an event that would prove my faith is wrong? I don’t think there is any event that could happen to any believer that would prove that their faith is false.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38,39)
This is not to say that life is not difficult and the Christian life is no exception. I think that my father’s faith was shattered when my mother died. Certainly our faith will be tested and proven.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ… (1 Pet 1:6,7)
‘Keep in mind that those with high I. Q.’s typically attend higher education where they are taught that God does not exist while still in there formative years.’
from Russ. Yes, just as christians teach their own that God DOES exist.
the point you just made is that smart people teach kids through good education that there are more reasonable explanations than God, while christians, who are poorly educated as a rule, ignore higher science, and pass this on to their kids.
you hold on to gut feelings, because they’re closer to you than the facts that some far-off scientist is coming up with, but here’s the thing. he tests his theories with faith, you ignore faith.
Even if, as Russ says, God is supposed to reveal ‘ye truthe’ only to the humble then the question remains: how does He do it?
Being humble is a pretty easy to define state of mind. Anyone who goes to a devout believer with an open mind and a willingness to learn should be able to have it all explained to them satisfactorily. This plainly doesn’t work.
I just had a thought. What if ‘humble’ really means to make yourself subservient to the new truth? That would closely resemble the concept of Islam, a word meaning something like submission/obedience. (As well as peace, judging from the stem ‘salema’.)
Maarten,
“Being humble is a pretty easy to define state of mind.”
Being humble before the God of the universe would be to agree with the God of the universe. In Biblical terms, this would mean that for you to be humble you would need to:
1. Admit that you are a sinner. [a]
2. Agree with God that you sin is deserving of death. [b]
3. Agree with God that Jesus alone is able to save you. [c]
4. Receive Jesus as your savior. [d]
So, I agree, humility is easy. So what is stopping you?
a. …all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. [Rom 3:23]
b. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom 6:23]
c. …there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. [Acts 4:12]
d. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. [John 1:12]
@Russ: I’m not sure quoting scripture is going to make anyone here repent from their sin and turn to your Savior. We don’t believe the Bible. We don’t think it’s from God.
I know that’s what they taught in your evangelism class. And I admit it can work sometimes. But not when you’re dealing with people of decent intelligence and reject Christianity for intellectual reasons.
Many of us atheists know the Bible very well, and could quote you the same verses.
Daniel,
Have you ever witnessed evolution? Has anyone in the history of mankind ever witnessed evolution? Yet you believe in what you cannot see.
The Bible insists that all of mankind is condemned because all men are in rebellion against God.
…it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment… [Heb 9:27]
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” [Psalm 14:1]
“Have you ever witnessed evolution?” No, not personally, but scientists have in the lab and in nature and it’s been well documented. Maybe you should do a little investigating before you start spouting off on things you know nothing about.
@Russ: Have you ever witnessed the invisible dragon in my garage? I know it is there, yet people in their rebellious nature have the audacity to claim it is not true! Fools! I know it to be true, because I have experienced it. In fact, there is much evidence for it — I know it’s active during the day, because it warms up in the afternoon. Things are always messy in there, because it keeps knocking things over. And there’s always a bit of a stench. I wish his odor was invisible, too.
If you seriously don’t think “anyone in the history of mankind ever witnessed evolution,” you should learn about this virus called AIDS, and how it has evolved in the last couple decades and how it keeps evolving. Or how God keeps changing his intelligently designed virus so people suffer, if that’s how you’d rather view it.
“Or how God keeps changing his intelligently designed virus so people suffer, if that’s how you’d rather view it.”
Only more evidence that the Bible is the word of God:
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. [Matt 24:7,8]
Daniel,
It’s impossible to argue with a brainwashed Christian like Russ. He believes in the inerreancy of the Bible. No evidence, no matter how conivincing, will make him change his mind. In fact, it frequently convinces him further of his own correctness. When one steps back and views this lunacy from a distance, it’s stunning how circular their logic is, their little air tight argument keep their little comparmentalized world all in place. Everything can be explaned away as “God did it” or by quoting some overused Bible verse. I still don’t get how that verse from Matthew explains the evolution of viruses, but I digress.
Also, notice how in Russ’s last reply he never addresses your original point. He seems to be of the opinion that if you don’t see it happen, then it must be false.
Hey Russ, we’ve never seen the center of the earth, but we know it’s core is made of molten iron and it has a magnetic spin.
Hey Russ, NO ONE has ever seen god, at least they can’t prove it. Why do you believe in him. Also, if he wants us to believe in him SOOOOOO badly, why not come down to earth and say, “Hey, dummy! I’m over here!” Instead, the only definitive proof we get of his existence is when Daniel and I are burning in hell for eternity. How lovely. What a compassionate, loving, caring, merciful god. *cough* Bullshit! *Cough*
Finally, to address the original point of this thread. One reason why Christianity has been so successful, is it’s insular nature, and it’s hostility towards intellectualism and free thought. This is no surprise, as science continues to disprove the veracity of historical accounts in the bible. Science is a threat the church’s control over our minds. Why do you think they forced Gallileo to recant his ideas? It was to serve as an example that anyone who speaks against the church will be dealt with. Giordano Bruno was not so fortunate. The church has waged a two mellinium war against free thought. It’s no surprise that they continue to do it today. Five hundred years ago, they fought the Heliocentric universe of Copernicus, now they fight evolution. It the same old song and dance.
But Joel, he is here all you have to is look around. Do you seriously thinks that it happened by chance. If the answer is yes then Pascal would probably want to make a wager with you.
I will be nice and and move on to a more basic presumption or at least a window into this theory called religion or personal beliefs of a higher being. Imagine a world in which is devoid of man seeking for answers to the why, how, what, can it be, and a host of other questions and perspectives that this pursuit of a higher being drives. That the Aztec’s and the other earlier civilizations had those that pondered these questions and kept records of events that happened in their perspective environments is quite astounding considering they didn’t have the technology that we have today. People around the globe are today considering the ramifications that the year 2012 will bring to our existence.
Imagine a world in which man seeks his own pleasure, power and dominance over all those in his immediate environment. We call that a dictator and I can envision the likes of Stalin, Ghadafi and Hitler. These people sought the answers to the How and why of existence but it was untempered as to how it was derived and to what perspective or goal would it bring the most reward. I could go on, but I gather that you are intelligent and don’t kneed a history lesson. Keep seeking truth, but don’t forget to Live Life.
Joel,
Thank you so much for the brilliant reply above. You’ve hit the proverbial nail on the head.
I am an author, usually of fiction, but currently at work on a book entitled, “Supernatural Hypocrisy: The Cognitive Dissonance of a God Cosmology” (and ironically, have found that this non-fiction book is about the Ultimate Fiction).
In my research i have found enough data to convince me fully toward atheism. Christianity is predicated on myths, and not even unique ones, but ones borrowed from other myths throughout the ages; Christianity is a delusion, and the cause of most of the past and current suffering in the world. I could never believe in, nor worship any deity who would allow such things.
Kudos to you for your Intellectual Honesty, and eternal shame on those who trade it for the machinations of their own fear.
Regards,
Kelli Jae Baeli
I studied science in college. I have never been taught that God does not exist by anyone.
On the other hand, growing up in the deep south, I have been hammered with the idea that Jesus is my savior and that I am going to “hell” if I don’t believe.
Christians believe in the God that was created out of man’s imagination. Much as they’d like to think so, they don’t have a monopoly on knowing the nature of God. You don’t have to be a Christian to believe in God, but you have to be a Christian to believe in the lame version of God. Just the fact that they call it “he” is a terrible disrespect, an incredible smugness regarding the value of man to this planet.
Humans, like wild pigs, are very destructive animals. And Christians think they can justify their destructive nature by quoting bible verse, by creating context wherever they feel like.
Have you ever been misunderstood based on something you’ve written? Of course you have; you’re on the internet. Could it ever be possible that Jesus’ words could have been a) misquoted in the first place b) exaggerated by human nature c) misinterpreted by multiple translations or changes in the meaning of specific words d) flat out changed because the words didn’t jibe with the agenda of the person who was transcribing or translating? Do you think ANY or ALL of those things might be possible over the course of 2000 years, particularly among ignorant humans who think they know everything?
God doesn’t give a damn what you believe. God is not a smug, egotistical human who requires everyone to believe certain things or “he” is going to punish them. Humans insert their own qualities into the nature of God, just like tribal cultures for millennia have done.
My 4-year old used to say something when we asked him a question that he didn’t know the answer to. He said, “I can’t know.” Of course, the correct grammar would have been “I don’t know,” but in his own wisdom, perhaps “I can’t know” has a more powerful meaning for all of us. Perhaps there are many things we can’t know, no matter how hard we try.
I know what I think about the nature of God, but I can’t know the true nature of God while I am in human form. It is just not possible. No one else can know either; so when they say they do, I simply laugh and realize it is their very humanity that requires them to insist that they “know”.
Intelligence leads to Pride, the worst of the sins. Pride is at the root of every evil, insomuch as Pride tells us to put ourselves first and God second. Every time we sin it is because we view ourselves to be more important than God for that moment. Sin is all about the Self.
That Bible passage is saying that the more intelligent men (i.e. people who frequent forums and blogs bashing religion) are more prone to trust themselves rather than God, which is exactly what God does not want them to do. He created people to be dependent on him. Why that is I cannot say, nor can anyone else. It is not given to us to know it.
Thats the Christian theology in an extremely condensed form, and of course I have not the wit nor the skill to correctly explain the Truth in its entirety.
My experience is actually somewhat different – I find the most intellegent and educated people are normally quite humble. The most prideful are those who believe they know what God wants from us, and that they are saved while the rest of us poor sinners will burn in Hell. The mind-blowing hubris of claiming to know the mind of God is surely the most prideful act imaginable, as it effectively says I am equal to God. If pride is the worst of all sins, a large number of Christians are in for a very nasty shock, and had better be praying their vision of hell is 100% wrong.
Dude, your the one that’s obsessed with sin…
per bluebirdisdead
“Intelligence leads to Pride, the worst of the sins.”
There you have it folks – stupidity (the opposite of intelligence) is commendable: intelligence leads to the great evil Pride.
We are truly blessed to have someone ‘intelligent’ enough to inform us concerning correct understanding of scripture which we were already familiar with, but did not understand properly. No Pride there, huh?
What possible comment could more ironically reinforce the original post?
The bible does not teach that intelligence is wrong/bad/sin. (… be wise as serpents, but gentle as a dove.) The bible teaches that trusting in yourself rather than trusting in God is sin. It does not mean that we do not use the intelligence that God has given to us. It just means that I realize that even if I am greatly gifted by God with intelligence, He is still smarter that I am.
Here is a story Jesus gave of one smart guy:
Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. “And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ “So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. ‘And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”‘ “But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” [Luke 12:16-21]
About Christians, they sometimes act like morons. They are human. About atheists, they sometimes act like morons. They are human.
But God isn’t. And his name means simply: I am.
I am.
(Apparently, it was an important issue he wanted to address)
Reading this discussion, I just want to I’m sorry for whatever happened, or “whoever” happened, that changed everything. I can understand how one might feel God is responsible for it, and is not someone you want anything to do with,perhaps even too atrocious to exist. So you wish him away in your mind. What you can see you can assess and respond to, and what you can control is safe. So you pick on those you call weaker than yourself, to make you feel better, to feel intellectually superior. To feel justified. After all, they must be wrong, because if they aren’t, that means you are. Everyone does sometimes, myself included. But I would argue that what you are doing, shows a lot more faith that the other side of the fence. It’s just that your faith is placed in science, or the human reason, or perhaps your own mind. This odds are in your favor, that is, if you have never been wrong, ever. So, if you are like the other 99.99% of the population who have been mistaken or not known everything, what does that say if you are wrong?
Don’t think I’m pretending to know all the answers, I don’t. I can’t. I’m just human too. But it seems to me as I read the hostility in your blogs that some of you are putting your bad experiences with Christians and biblical snippets taken out of context, and stitching those together forming a cold and distant perception of God, a maniacal patchwork bully quilt. But no credit is given to the experiences which influenced the maker of such a perception, one human among an potentially infinite number of past and present, a fleeting heartbeat in the grand scheme of eternity.
What troubles me is this question:
What if God does exist, but not the one you’ve created in your mind?
I mean, aren’t you all essentially debating the existence of God? Is he does exist, the very notion of him being, well, God as we define it, would imply that he is all-knowing, intelligent vastly beyond our concept of this world. So if he exists, and you say he doesn’t, you don’t think it is brazen to assume that your intelligence ranks above his?
From what I read, your response to his existence was that he is not because you see not. If that logic is true, then doesn’t it apply double fold? If it is true, than you cannot prove he doesn’t exist. And if you take the logical viewpoint, you’d have to look to more than just one avenue such as science to justify such a claim. That is unless your definition of God is that he is only scientist. What about statistics? What about anthropology, spirituality throughout human history, the arts, religion, mathematics, human suffering, philosophy, injustice, the existence of an afterlife, the existence of morality, and so much more? If we only know a fraction of what is beyond our galaxy, aren’t really sure about black matter, or the information in DNA, isn’t it safe to assume that there are probably more things out there that we don’t know about? Does that mean that they do not exist, or that your approval or knowledge of them influences their existence?
How then can you presume to overrule the existence of God under the guise of rationalism? According to rational thought, your theory would only be rational if the the thinker of such theory holds the power to make things real, and deem things not real. It would assume a position of superiority above the rest of humanity. Your logical argument is flawed, if there is even one concept in the universe about which you are wrong. Your response? I’d imagine you would say the same goes then for Christians. And I would point out that there is a drastic difference, it the difference between you and God. You end the argument by saying that you don’t believe in God, the bloggers through in a nana-nan-boo-boo for effect, and the conversation ends.
What you are actually saying, is that you are superior, your mind is superior, and that your opinions hold the truest possible value, that in your years on earth you have discovered all there is to ever know about the history of the universe and its future and beyond to safely assume that there has never been a God, and never will be.
Impressive.
And if you say that of course there are things out there you can’t explain, or don’t know, well, you are resting on faith.
How then would your argument apply to scientists who see the existence of a creator in the complexity of life in its order and precision? I suppose Albert Einstein was not very intelligent since through science he was convinced of the existence of God. Hence your argument has you standing standing at the top of a slippery slope, with no where to go but down.
The only thing that would save your logic is if you were all- knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent, and well, perfect. If you had the same attributes of God. Sound a little prideful?
If you answered no to any of the above, you might want to seriously question how much one person’s personal opinion affects reality. I would seriously question how seriously you take yourself. Your own logic is really only logical if a superior being such as God exists who is not capable of error. And yet you are here fulfilling the very meaning of this verse, while not even realizing it.
You say that then my belief in God would then also be subject to the same scrutiny, and I point out the major differentiating factor, the difference is that you are human, and God is, God.
So still you choose to reject him. That is your choice. You are allowed to do that. But you can’t hide behind your rational claim, because it is isn’t at all. It is extremely arrogant. And I hope you one day are able to let go of your anger and see it.
Trust me. I totally understand. I’ve been there. You got your feelings hurt somewhere along the way. You can’t explain everything and it frustrates you. But it is not God’s fault. It was the direct result of a human choice. And it sucks and I’m sorry.
God gave us the independance of free will and choice we craved, and now he gets blamed for the negative consequences of people’s bad choices.
So why doesn’t he stop all of the bad things in the world? I would imagine it is more complicated than my answer, but the logical answer would be that if he did, then we would not have free will. It is a catch 22. Still that doesn’t mean he doesn’t has the ability, or that he doesn’t ever, but it gives a glimpse into our hidden agenda. Most of us wish that if someone put us here, they’d love us enough to have a perfect life, and we wish for a world where no one would ever get hurt or suffer.
What I have discovered is that God is even better than that. He loves us so much, that he does want us to have a perfect life, and to know him deeply. The bible paints a picture of how our original rebellion against him, broke our original spirit, and ultimately broke our world. It talks about sin, great suffering, and much pain as a result, but it does all this to clearly explain and deliver one clear message. There is hope, and God cares enough to undo the mess caused by our tragic mistake.
Even though we chose to reject him, to even deny his existence, he still loved us. Since he is God, he is not bound by space or time, or our opinion of him. He promised an end to the suffering, and he gave it to us. Some of you mock the bible, but piece it together as a whole in relation to mankind and you will see how it all fits together. It gives us a clue into the desperate state of mankind before a righteous God. It promises hope. Not just Obama hope, but real hope. Hope that this mess will be fixed. And then it happens. He takes the punishment for those who deserve it, and they spit on him as he does it. But he does it because nothing in the world could ever stop him from wanting them or you to come back home to him, because he created you to be there with him before you were even born. Some of you have said you know, it is Jesus’ sacrifice. But you can’t know, or you would be shaken to your core at the implications of such a love story. Perhaps you should say instead, that you have heard it, but would rather stick to your mean cop version of a God who doesn’t exist. This way no one can tell you what to do. The control of your life is totally yours, because you are way too smart to be brainwashed with religion. You are not afraid of death, because in the chance that you are wrong, you wouldn’t even want to be with a God like him anyway, and you’d opt for hell anyway.
What if you die and you realize the for the first time the full extent of God’s love, and you are given the complete knowledge of His mysteries, but you have already made your choice?
You say you don’t care. But if you are right, and life just is, you have nothing to lose in death. If I am wrong and you are right, I have nothing to lose either. But if I am right and you are wrong, well, not so much. Religion and meaning aside, it doesn’t seem to be very logical choice.
You call it a fear tactic. Are warning labels on electric tools fear tactics? Your criticism seems a little harsh, since Christians have nothing to gain themselves from your faith in God, and if you have experienced something different, than that is not right. If you saw a potentially dangerous situation I would trust you would act. That is what they are trying to do when they are telling you about Jesus, even if it they do it poorly. Knowing God is so amazing, so real and so life-altering, I can’t imagine going back to life without him. It is a personal thing, between you and God, and it requires faith first. He has promised to reveal himself to all who seek him whole heartedly, in Jesus’ Name. I wonder if in your experiences if you never really knew his goodness. Or maybe it seems like a distant memory. It doesn’t have to be like that, God hasn’t forgotten. He is omnipresent, and he is waiting.
You place high value on persons who readily use logic, and you like to investigate possibilities, intelligence is not a bad thing, and faith and intelligence can co-exist. To those who made the claim that Christians as a whole are overall unintelligent, well such an obviously false statement discredits the rest of your arguments as well. God is one that gave you this rational and intelligent mind, and he takes great delight when you use it. What I would suggest this verse in Luke is implying is that when your intellect starts turning on the one who made it, it is not so smart. Even a small child has the natural ability to accept God’s existence, and I would argue that you probably believed in him when you were small too. But then something changed.
Allow me the liberty to examine what I think the verse is saying in relation to the comments I have read:
Imagine a first grade student who is fascinated with science. She dreams of entering the science fair, but knows that her mother doesn’t have the money to buy the supplies that she needs to compete. She is the only girl in her class who wishes to enter. She comes home feet dragging, only to find an envelope with her name on it, sitting on her bed with a crisp $20 bill inside. She picks it up, runs to the store and spends her nights pouring over her project. She wins first place for her project. Jump ahead 40 years, this same girl is now a woman, and an internationally acknowledged scientist for her achievements in research.
RESPONSE:
How would the story have ended if she never entered her first grade science fair? Would she have continued to pursue her passion, or would her dreams be squashed forever? What if she had refused to open the envelope because she didn’t know who had given it to her? What if she refused to believe anyone could be so generous and threw it away thinking it was a scam? What if she was so angry, she gave up on science in general and spent the money on candy? What if she saw it, but thought it was something else? What if she dismissed the envelope by its appearance as a piece of trash that blew in her room and landed on her bed by chance? What if she spent all her time trying to figure out how it got their that she totally missed the science fair? What if she was so caught up in her tears that she never even noticed it was there?
Well, she was a kid. She saw the envelope with her name on it, opened it and used it. She knew in her 6 young years, that someone had to have put it there. She knew someone had to have written her name on it. That was enough to prove to her that some one gave it to her. She never knew who gave it to her, and she doesn’t to this day. But it changed her life.
Denying the existence of God is like choosing the options given after the story. It seems silly when put in perspective. The wisest of the wise can sometimes miss the larger picture when focusing and dissecting apart all of the tiny fragments, and lose sight of the meaning behind it all. The studying is not the problem, but losing sight of the real nature of God is. Morally decent and intelligent people can become more easily susceptible to rely on themselves because of their great abilities, and not realizing their need for God. To the child on the other hand, the understanding that all things have a maker or caretaker in this world comes naturally to a young child, because this is clearly evident in the world they see around them. They know they make mistakes and are well aware of their humble position of youth.
It is not saying that smart people are foolish, or that believing in God is for idiots. This verse comes from the Bible and so therefore the Bible is very relevant to this entire argument on either side. Its very existence was to give wisdom to the people, but when God’s nature and existence is chastised by the ones he formed with great care under the guise of intelligence, its something like summing up the work experience on your resume as knowing twinkle twinkle little star at Steven Hawkins’ office.
The context of the verse was specifically referring to the religious leaders of the time, as someone previously commented, who thought they knew everything about God and religion, but never realized they were face to face with the very Messiah they had been living for. It wasn’t their intelligence at question here, but rather that their head knowledge was not connected to their hearts. That their religion was equal to rational rules, and nothing else. They thought by knowing the Law, they knew God, but they really didn’t. They didn’t have a clue. They didn’t live what they preached, and didn’t understand the meaning or purpose behind it all. By focusing on the details, they lost sight of God. Sound familiar?
(Enter modern day Christians)
I say it in jest, because I know its true. I can’t tell you how many times I have been let down by Christians. I can’t tell you how many times I have let others I care about down either. It’s the truth. Christians are people, and they screw up. There are all kinds, all personalities, and all attitudes. The only good thing about their bad quirks, is that through their faults they realize their deep need for God. And not all who claim to be Christians, really are. The Bible poses the question that when Jesus returns to earth, will he find faith on the earth? It says that many will claim him, but he will say that he never knew them. It says that he was waiting at the door and knocking, but they never opened it. God knows our hearts, and isn’t fooled by lip service just as much as you aren’t either.
An opinion or disbelief doesn’t make God squirm, he knows that we are all stumbling in the dark here on earth. But he knows the end of the story, the one where wrongs are made right, and those who have humbled themselves before him in this life are as we were always meant to be, with him in perfection. He wants us all to be with him, and he has and continues to go at great lengths to show us.
But you say it doesn’t matter because it is not true. And that is your choice. Your expression of free will. And you are responsible for it, as I am for mine, and as those are who inflict suffering on others. God is not responsible for your choices, no more than you would be responsible for your son or daughters choices of which you had no involvement. He still loves you, and he always will. Hell is the direct and just response to the evil in the world. God desires that no one would end up there. He has given us all a way out.
Would you stop loving your son if he told you he hated you? I’d imagine it would hurt your feelings, but you could never stop loving him. What if you had to chose between which of your children would go to hell? Its unthinkable.
This is what your view of God sounds like to me.
Well, most imperfect humans wouldn’t wish that one another, much less the one who loves you and is there with you every step of your life, taking your punches even though he is not the guilty one. Because of his holiness, we are all guilty before him. But he didn’t stop there, he made a way after we messed it up, and he continues to do so. This is the love that is his nature. This is the justice that is his nature. This is the grace that is his nature. This is the humility that is his nature.
I’d imagine you couldn’t send a child you loved to hell, order or not. I suppose if you truly loved them, you’d go in their place, as their parent. As someone who loves them deeply. That’s precisely what Jesus did for you. So if anyone ends up in hell, they essentially chose it. Choosing to reject God, means rejecting his love and his mercy. If God was who you all described, I probably wouldn’t believe either. But I’ve been on both sides of the fence, and when I finally discovered the truth about him, well nothing has been the same since. Without faith I saw God as a tyrant out to get me if I messed up. I thought that if anyone knew the real me, they wouldn’t love me. I thought I was unfixable. But I was so wrong.
He used the lowest point in my life, to bring me to him. It was only when I was there desperate and pitiful, that I cried out to him. He heard me, and he changed me.
I’m not the same person I used to be. I know this sounds illogical but that is the beauty of it. He is not bound by logic, and He takes great pleasure in revealing that. His love for me is overwhelming, and I can’t even begin to fathom how deep his love for all of mankind is. His promises are there in my moments of trials, and I feel his presence in my soul. He has broken my heart for the things in this world that break his, the pain and suffering that will one day be no more. I can face the things I once feared because I know He is with me always. He opens my eyes to things that were hidden before, and the bible feels like ancient wind in my soul, I these are all things I can’t show you, but I can share my personal experience. And if you don’t believe me, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Perhaps it would infer that since I am possible of error, my testimony is unreliable. That would be totally logical, and a wise assumption on your part. But what if there where billions of people throughout history who shared similar experiences independently? And what if there where unexplained prophecies, with an inerrancy rate of 100%, that might spark an interest. What if the historical events recorded in the bible where backed up historically? Interesting, but not convincing enough. No one will ever be able to convince only the rational mind of spiritual matters. Spiritually appeals to the spirit, and mind, together in union. By closing one avenue, you are only seeing half the picture. But the most important factor of all is faith. It is required, and you don’t want it. Faith is the essence of humility. It is humbling yourself before God. Knowledge of God without faith is useless, and devoid of any worth. That is why I can understand your perspective, your position. That is why I have spent hours of my day writing this to you, because I believe God wants you to know he is not responsible for what happened. It is not your fault, either. He loves you. He is calling you by name. He wants to use you in mighty ways, for his good and perfect glory, because he created you specifically and uniquely for that purpose, and he wants to use your beautiful mind for things that will last forever. But most of all because he wanted to love you. And he does. More than you or I will ever know in this lifetime. Step out in faith, and cry out to him, and he will answer you, but not under your terms, for it is he alone who is the God of the Universe, the Great I AM.
And Jesus appealed to the poor and uneducated, because naturally religion had become all about kissing the fannies of the rich, and learned, the important and the wise. Status reigned even in religious institutions, and sadly it still does. Jesus did this to rock our world view, to show that his kingdom is not like ours, and that even the wisest of us sometimes get it all wrong. He said this to show that simple childlike faith and love is more important to him than knowledge that simply puffs up the pride of the one who has it but doesn’t apply it. God loves all of his children, not just the intellectuals. God is the originator of all good attributes, and the rational or intellectual mind is only one attribute among many. I could go on forever, because you have addressed such an important concept that can’t be reduced to the limits of a blog. But you can’t say I didn’t try.
Take care.
Anneka- this a well put piece of standing up for what you know to be true. My dialogue is not about bashing Christianity, but instead is a look at what is wrong with not just Christianity, but mostly all religions and faiths. Why is religion regressing from its most fundemental truths that gives it form and its basis to exist. If I white wash a tiger or zebra do I create a new animal or does it remain the same but in an un-natural color? What happens to its ability to fend for itself and hide from predators? The whoring around of the Churches and faiths today (accept the many of diverse and of un-natural existence) and the attitudes that basically transcends God’s will and directives. I wonder how God will accept this agression of man questioning his authority to make the rules. This puts man in the same realm as the angels that were kicked out of heaven due to their insubordination toward God and His rules. I can change the word of God and his directives, question his authority, and all I end up with is Eternal Damnation. I can end up like King Solomon, just for allowing one weed in my yard because of its beauty and fragrance. In time it will corrode and choke out the good that is there and in the end will dominate and dictate my yards exitence and purpose. America has this problem today and is over grown with weed that are choking out it right to survive as a country. We need to go back to the original texts to find out the truth, since the Word of God has been tainted by those with agendas of control and enslavement. Note: Japan is now 12 to 14 feet wider and the earth’s axis tilt has changed 6 degrees, and is all from a 9.0 earthquake. What will 2012 bring?
“Know”. That word doesn’t mean what you think it means. And, as I’ve already said once today, Christianity has been diluted and washed out because so much of the original doctrine is PROVEABLY NOT TRUE.
Oh, and the alteration in axial tilt due to the Japanese quake is about 6 inches at the pole. A 6 degree tilt due to an Earthquake? Absurd! Just like a fundie to spout “facts” without checking them.
[Comment withdrawn - Custador]
I’d rather know where somebody stands on the issue. And just to play Devil’s Advocate, how does an expression of homophobia in and of itself violate the rules of the forum?
I would have filed that under needlessly offensive trolling, I think.
Actually, I was thinking about this the other day; I don’t think UF has a formally codified set of posting rules as such (I’ve certainly never found them, anyway). It seems to be more a case that you expect a certain standard of behaviour (which admittedly varies according to whether somebody is an established part of the community – hence John C, for example) that sort of flits around the idea of: Don’t be a dick. For me, saying (or implying, as in this case) that homosexuality is an “un-natural existence” falls firmly into the “being a dick” category.
That said, I totally respect the idea that it’s better to know who the dicks are up-front – but I think that has to be ablanced against how much of a platform you allow the dicks to have given a largely liberal audience.
The largely liberal audience can and will defend itself, I’m sure. You know as well as I do that going all fundie on these boards is like wrapping yourself in bacon and going for a swim in a pool full of piranhas.
I’d be in favor of screening out screaming invective, but there’s nothing in Reasonable Faith’s above post that qualifies. It’s an opinion, it differs from mine, and it’s not a personal attack on anyone. It even has some comic relief value for the “facts” it gives about the geophysical effects of the earthquake in Japan.
This also is true. Fundies are great when you need a giggle.
The problem I have with censoring expressions of homophobia is that many religious folks are actually deluded into thinking that homosexuality is scientifically and psychologically proven to be detrimental. It may be through them posting such ideas here and being proven wrong that they may take a look at the actual facts, and open their minds a bit. A rare happenstance, I grant you, but one that did occur in my own case… I used to be religious, and engaged in similar debates to the ones on these boards on a different forum I frequent.
Yes, Morpheus91 has a good point. Discussion is better than censorship. The chance of changing minds may be small, but it’s not zero.
Don’t be a dick.
Wheaton’s Rule. FTW!
But on everything else, I agree with Ursa and Morpheus.
Custador don’t be such a douche. A dick is meant to sow seed and reproduce. In time, due to the introduction of new genes species shift and become new species. A dick by itself is worthles, kind of like a “limp dick” if you will. Thought without expression is in the same category. Through dialogue and interactions thought are sowed and new thoughts are formed and integrated and knowledge is formed. Sorry if I un-intentionally got your panties in a bunch. Peace to you all and lets think in honest plural thought patterns.
UrsaMinor- No one skirted that close or implied that or even touched the issue of gay or homosexual issues. While I am offended by a lot of the dialogue on this site, but I am adult enough and educated to a degree of sensitivity that others have their beliefs and that they may not mesh with mine. When dialogue is started, it should flow evenly like the waves lapping at the shore. It also should be truthful and not fettered by fears and insecurities. It is better to hear the truth, than to hear a thousand lies to your face agreeing with your cause and in the end fail or be found lacking in merit. Think about it.
I have had and still do have gay and lesbian friends in my circle of close friends. Our discourse on social issues are fortright, honest, and blatantly honest and to the point. No holds barred dialogue and each of us are stronger and more at peace than many of the others in public discouse. Note: others does not light up the scoreboard with Gay or Homosexual, so don’t go there.
I have had and still do have gay and lesbian friends in my circle of close friends.
Um, well OK. If you strain really hard, you can hit *all* the stereotypes before the sun next arises.
Thank you for making my point and by putting your foot in your mouth, you open the door to heterophobia. There are too many of us out here that really don’t give a shit if you are gay or not. What we do care about is will you be there when you are needed to fight an issue or evil that threatens all of us both hetero and homosexual. Or will you allow your own personal challenges and issues stand in the way due to some transgression that my father or grandfather made some time back in “The land before time”. I do not speak in riddles nor do I envision myself any better than anyone else. I do become tired and bored with interacting with peole that really don’t have a clue as to how to interact on an adult level. If you want to continue in this manner then maybe we should take the dialogue over to the Gaia Online (the kiddie channel). I have had more adult dialogue there on the same issues and have recieved more adult responses.
Why do people that want diversity think on singular level of thought. Can a race car win a race with only one tire or does it need the other tires to lend support and give it balance and function? If all the flowers were one color, what a boring existence we would live in. What if I took away your favorite food, would you miss it? What if I told you you could no longer have your individuality and made you live in a mold that I made for you or told you what you could or could not say? Would you care or are you too self centered to see the beauty of the diversity of life? Your call and your life. Really, from the responses there are a lot of phobias out there.
I do not speak in riddles
Well, that’s true. Riddles have a solution.
Beat me to it. I’m just waiting for “I’m not racist, but…”
Ah Custador, this is the point of my dialogue. Too many, like reigious faiths and religious dogmas, the gay isues, feminism, and of course illegal immigeants brings forth public discours, but the discourse is flawed since as long as I can be you up in public with much fanfare, life is good. If the situation is reversed, then the most fowl and distasteful barrage of negative discourse comes in the Cry of Fowl. What was written was not intended to address the gay issues, but it was intended to address church dogmas and their un-naturalness in light of what God wants from us. Just like the 6 degree remark, what an outrage that someone would reply with such vehement discourse. The point here is that something happened, it made a change to this planet, and it has nothing to do with Touching or Skirting the gay issues. The ramifications to the planet and its inhabitants is the issue that was being brought to bear and it is in each persons responsibility to check the facts and determine if it is correct and does it pertain to me. Words and issue arise in the course of human interaction, but when people become paranoid and lash out at shadows and perceived wrong then there is an issue that should be addressed. I hope you find peace and balance in your interactions with your environment
1. Japan is not wider due to an earthquake.
2. The earth’s axis has not changed due to the earthquake.
Seriously The Earth’s Axis is 23.5 degrees. A 9 degree shift is huge and we would have noticed it by shit going crazy in our skies and all our stuff breaking. A force that large would have broken human civilisation.
I would suggest that for your knowledge base that you go check it out. Or do you just regurgitate what others have said.
tl;dr
;-)
“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.”
(Jesus, Luke 10:21)
How did we get on the subject of Pride?
Wise and Understanding does not elicit the connotations of Prideful and Condescending.
Wise -
1. having the power of discerning and judging properly as to what is true or right; possessing discernment, judgment, or discretion.
Understanding -
1. mental process of a person who comprehends; comprehension; personal interpretation
So the passage translates, “Thank you God for hiding these things [salvation?] from those who comprehend properly as to what is true or right.”
Here’s my comment:
http://unfaithfulreason.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/hidden-from-the-smart-prideful-prejudiced-elitist-and-the-nazis/
Imagine Jesus walking through the land of Israel 2000 years ago. He is surrounded by a multitude of people of all types. Among them are the “learned” religious leaders as well as the common farmers, shepherds, etc. The common people thought of the religious leaders as “closer to God” or “way more holy than I am”. Jesus was about to shatter that misconception.
As He is surrounded by all of these various types of people, He says, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children…”
By saying this, Jesus lifted up the common people and pushed down the religious and learned of His day. His saying would have been met with joy from the common and uneducated of His day but rejected with distain by the learned and pious and religious. And, this is the exactly the effect it had.
The same great news is true today. Jesus is willing to reveal Himself to the common, even to the lowest in our society. However, those who are wise in their own eyes, God resists.
“God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”
Well said. You gave the verse context and meaning and answered the questions I had about what that verse really meant.
I read about some relevant evolutionary factoid – our toes are getting shorter. That’s right – we no longer need them to for grabbing onto things, so long separated toes are no longer needed. In a few hundred/thousand years, we may have no little toes at all! That is unless we kill ourselves and the earth with pollution first.
Oh, and there’s that whole discovery that dinasaurs had a wish bone, just like today’s birds do – a long suspected connection of which evidence was finally found.
A reduction or an elimination of information or function is not evolution. If you told me that we never had toes before but now we can swing from the trees by our toes because we evolved toes that we never had, you could claim evolution but the reduction of dna information and as a result the reduction of or elimination of function is not evidence for evolution. In fact it is evidence of entropy which is the scientific fact that all things in the universe are degrading, not improving.
According to scientists, about one species per hour goes extinct. This extinction rate existed long before the industrial revolution. Every day several species go extinct however, in all of recorded history no one has ever observed a new species come into existence. This again is consistent with the scientific law of entropy.
Not only is this consistent with the law of entropy, it is consistent with the Biblical account of creation:
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb [that] yields seed, [and] the fruit tree [that] yields fruit ACCORDING TO ITS KIND…
And the earth brought forth grass, the herb [that] yields seed ACCORDING TO ITS KIND, and the tree [that] yields fruit, whose seed [is] in itself ACCORDING TO ITS KIND…
God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, ACCORDING TO THEIR KIND, and every winged bird ACCORDING TO ITS KIND …
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creatures ACCORDING TO ITS KIND: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, [each] ACCORDING TO ITS KIND…
And God made the beast of the earth ACCORDING TO ITS KIND; cattle ACCORDING TO ITS KIND and everything that creeps on the earth ACCORDING TO ITS KIND…
And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
We do not see new species because God has rested. All we see now is the downward deterioration of the universe and the elimination of many species.
Russ – you need to get off the creationist websites and read some real science.
Russ-
Your understanding of entropy is fundamentally flawed.
The sun provides energy to the earth, things on earth increase in complexity. Evolution shows that things have increased in complexity through time from atoms to molecules to biomolecules to life to multicellular life. Because humans also use energy, things we make get more complex all the time. Just look at our technological advances.
As far as god creating things according to their kind, please explain speciation to me. (Let me guess, you don’t know what speciation is? Speciation is when populations of related animals evolve to a point such that they cannot interbreed anymore.)
But if we bring to the worn out gene pool some outside characteristics that are similar or needed we in fact breath new life into the species and extend its capabilities. In time the outside gene pool could dominate the original or hybrid specie be formed or a new specie could be formed or, or, or.?! A specie does not have to die if it is able to modify, adapt, and adjust to the changes in its environment.
“worn out gene pool” and “outside gene pool”
When you use terms like these I have to wonder if you have any idea of what the fuck you are talking about.
Speciation:
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
My main point is simply that we see several species go extinct each day but we have not seen any new species evolve in all of recorded history. This fact is more consistent with the Biblical account of creation than it is with the theory of evolution.
You do realise our cows, sheep, horses and pretty much most old world food are all human created species and sub-species?
And way too much of the plant life that we eat. Have you ever wondered, What am I really eating? They say its good for me, but where did all the vitamins and nutrients go.
They are still there. Whenever someone starts talking about the lack of vitamins and nutrients in the food people are eating I wonder what they are trying to sell me.
So you are selling something?
The only thing RF is selling is stupidty as when he went to get some they were doing a buy 1 get 782,539,000 free offer …
No Sunny Day, in order to sell someone an item or idea, they first have to see that it has merit or importance and then decide if it is of enough importance for them or their life to want to part with their money or belief in what they already know. No sales gimmick here, just dialogue. Why do people withdraw from conversations, what are they afraid of? Are they afraid that they may be wrong or have been mislead by someone else? Bummer, I heard that you guys and gals were enlightened. In case Jabster wants to know, I, myself have traveled the World, have met and exchanged ideas and concepts, defended my country with honor, and I have given of myself to feed the hungry, help shelter those without shelter, and have been friends with people that in the beginning I could not communicate with, but learned how to. You guys really should get out more and smell the flowers. The Allegory of the Cave comes to mind.
Reasonable Faith … have you ever wondered why people call you Mr. Thickie, have you ever wondered why you don’t have any luck with the opposite sex, have you ever wondered why you friends are always busy when you see if they’re free for a chat, have you every wondered just why your life is so meaningless to yourself and others?
Jabster- have you ever considered that I have traveled the World, seen and experienced things that most people never even get close to, and that I have a family who have all gone on to college and have all earned degrees. Have you ever considered that I am still in college moving towards a degree and would have been finished with it but I put my family first. Have you ever considered that I already know what drives most of the issue in life and that most of you who are so INTO the issue that you solicit to, don’t even have a clue as to what is driving it. The Soviets used to call people such as the afore mentioned “Useful Idiots”. With this I am dropping the dialogue, since I do have Important items to work on and can’t be bothered by trivial thought.
blah, blah, blah … yet another fecking muppet who has nothing to say but thinks he has – well bad luck you’re just a bit of a thicky who doesn’t realise it, life’s unfair like that.
“With this I am dropping the dialogue, …” yep as somewhere there’s a village missing their idiot and they’ll be so pleased to see you return.
And yes Jabster you had run back home to your village. This dialogue = 0 hit points, 0 bits of enlightening data, 1000 points of sheer ignorance and arrogance which equals a little kid trying to look big. Your sheer arrogance competes with your ignorance. You can screwup only so many times before you get it right. Have a nice FD.
I thought you were dropping this dialog. An honest person would have left, yet you are still here.
I agree and congratulate you on the 1000 points you have earned.
DId you run out of Self-”Important” things to do?
@Jabster, LIKE!
Important with a capital I! It must be Very Important items you have to work on, then.
As for your initial question, I actually have on occasion wondered what I am eating… so I would look it up in a textbook or on the internet or even on the back of the packet. Science is kind enough to actually provide useful information on food, rather than tell us precious, delicious bacon is unclean because god felt like it and having a cheeseburger is an abomination. Ok, perhaps science agrees that most cheeseburgers are abominations…
Yes, and then we get to go back to the original argument above aabout how the different affiliations of the Church or belifs if you will have perverted the original beliefs of our faiths in order to enslave and control the masses for their agendas. Bacon as unclean, I doubt that you could prove that with a real original text. Many religions have proclaimed that God said this or that, but if you look at his directive and commands then you will be hard pressed to find this. While we are on the subject of unclean, let’s talk about the directive for man to leave a woman alone for a period of time after her menses had passed. How many of you fine Jewish or Judeo Christian follow that teaching. On another point, any idea why you are supposed to hold yourself unto one person? Let’s see, if you give head then you are giving the same to the last person they were with by way of proxy. If, your partner slleps around with six or seven other partners and they all do the same, you are in reality sleeping with the whole town. This also increases your risk for HIV and a host of other assorted diseases. And you worry about eating pork or Cheeseburgers. Humans are walking petri dishes, hey dude look at the bateria on that female petri dish, Classic conditioning I guess. You know, Ring the bell and the dog drools.
I think you’ve gotten lost. Are you feeling ok little boy? Do you need me to call a Dr for you? I understand you think you have something “Important” to say but you’re just rambling. Do you understand that this is a site where a bunch of athiests hang out and asking the fine jewish and christians among us if we follow a the commandments of a mythological critter is rather stupid. As for your other point typically women were seen a property, men were selfish and had multiple wives. so your bullshit about disease doesnt even follow from a time when people didn’t know what caused diseases in the first place.
Is this the pinnacle of your stupidity or does it get worse from here?
“Jabster- have you ever considered that I have traveled…”
Translation: ” Listen to me cause I’m really Important because I and travel and stuff. Mummy and dadee told me so. If you are not going to believe in my Importance and argue with me, I’ll just take my little ball and go home. So There! “
It takes a long time for a species to develop, so you won’t see it quickly or easily. And when a new species does emerge, evolution doesn’t stop there. If conditions change around that new species (for whatever reason – eg, climate, predators, food sources, etc), then it will very slowly adapt. If the species doesn’t adapt quickly enough to the changes, then it can easily become extinct.
You might want to read a little of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species – it includes several examples (and some great links to other sources of info).
It would be if it were true, but it is not. We have observed the evolution of several new species in the 20th century alone. Plants are particularly prolific at it.
But I expect that you will probably not bother to check the facts, and keep repeating an outright lie that conforms with your theology.
I am only a high school student, so forgive any misleading statements I may make about evolution. But, here I go.
Evolution, as I understand it, comes from the adaptation of organisms to better survive in their environments and persist. However, evolution can take many years and adaptations, at least the ones which are most useful and permanant (eg – physical), often result from genetic mutation which is not half as common as people like to think, especially in the case when it actually helps said organism.
Perhaps the reason that new species have not yet evolved again is because they, were they exist, is pretty darn good for them, and no further adaptations are necessary for their survival, or they have no yet had a mutation in their DNA that allows them to either a, pass on said mutation or b, survive the environmental conditions without hindering them further. Or perhaps the reason is that they have not found the right mutation quick enough to stop the extinction of their species.
Or maybe the reason is because there are too many other things happening in the world that impacts upon their environment that they cannot solve with a few adaptions – pollution and ice caps melting to name a few.
Just because new species of organisms haven’t been discovered (and by the way, they have – it’s called viruses) and species continue to decline in numbers, doesn’t mean that God or a diety of some sort has deemed it so because they’re ‘resting’. Your statement simply implies that you blame God’s resting for the extinction of animals, rather than humans or climate or many other factors that contribute to the aforementioned problem.
Regards
infinityxdream
Couple of points: We are observing the evolution of new species all the time (including what looks like the beginings of two new descendents of Killer Wales around the coast of the UK).
Viruses are not new. In fact, viruses are not even what is classicaly thought of as life. To simplify it: a virus is just a short protein chain, basically a tiny piece of DNA.
@Russ
Here are a few facts for you to digest (unless, of course, you worry that this might cause you to be prideful and foolish rather than educated).
1. Evolution is an observable fact. It had been observed long before Darwin came up with this theory of how it worked to create a variety of different species. What a sub-set of American Christians and their international converts object to is the _explanation_ of how evolution works, not the obvious and observable fact that it happens. Even the convicted criminal Ken Hovind, has had to concede that evolution happens at what he chooses to call “micro” level.
2. The development of new species have been observed, both in the wild and in the laboratory.
3. There is overwhelming support for the correctness of the main tenets of Darwin’s theory of how evolution worked to create the world’s species and phylla. The field of genetics, for example, has acquired retro-virus material in human DNA back down the evolutionary tree (and its branches) to ancestors of the apes.
4. The prophecies (aka predictions) made on the basis of Darwin’s theory of how evolution works to create new species have been fulfilled many, many times over. Moreover, these prophecies are far more precise and accurate than those in the Bible.
Precise and clear prophecies in the Bible don’t fare all that well. Many or them failed. Bible literalists engage in intellectual dishonesty by either ignoring them in favor of vague “prophecies” which can be “interpreted” to fit any one of lots of suitably twistable current or past events, or or they engage in semantic gymnastics to “explain” why the failed prediction did not really fail.
The many failed predictions of the “second coming” are a good case in point. Unless you do some creative word-to-meaning reorganization, it is clear that the earliest writers of the New Testament believed (wrongly) that Jesus would return in their lifetime. He didn’t.
If you follow the scientific method you through out a theory which spectacularly fails to be confirmed and you look for one which is a better fit to observable phenomena. The rule of logic and science is that the theory must fit the facts or be discarded. Religion, on the other hand, demands that if the facts do not fit the theory then the facts must be discarded or distorted. It is deeply dishonest.
A belief system which provides a false sense of superiority over those who normally make one feel inferior is a very seductive one. It allows the believer to experience “righteous” pride in their position. [I am right and you fools are all wrong. I am better than you. One day I will be rewarded and all you idiots will be tortured forever. Ha Ha. I'm the King of the Castle and you're the Dirty Rascals. If you want to be superior like me then you will have to come grovel before me while I tell you the truth you stupidly cannot see. I am better than you, so there. I win. You lose.]
People with a low sense of self-esteem in other areas will find it very difficult to let go of such a positively uplifting belief set. It’s easier if you have cause to proud of your accomplishments or place in the world. Nonetheless, it was hard for some of us to do so. It was not even easy to challenge our indoctrinated belief sets in the first place. Having the sands of your world view shift under your feet is so anxiety provoking for most people that they will resist it like crazy.
So, Russ, it could be reasonably argued that you are a scared person of low self-esteem who is using a logically untenable belief system to provide a false sense of pride and superiority. That is cause for pity, not emulation.
Wow, this site is very interesting!
Reading the comments is fun.
Judas – the scholar and most educated – was the betrayer. End of discussion.
A lot of newer evidence portrays Jesus as having told Judas to betray him and Judas bears the burden of betrayal so that Jesus fulfilled his prophecy.
Or you know, it is a fairy story and didn’t happen.
I find there is often a semantic conflict…many believers, mostly of the uneducated variety, do not understand what is meant by “facts” or “evidence” because empirical knowledge is what someone wrote down for them, for their “team” to champion, and thus see “facts” or “evidence” as oppositional defiant “opinion.” Nobel prize winning writer/mathematician/philosopher wrote extensively on the pitiable lack of rationality involved with clinging to a belief that is absent of facts and evidence. Essentially, it seems that some want to believe in the reason and ingenuity of man as it pertains to making life easier, i.e. cars, computers, medicine, etc. but prefer to separate reality from defining it similarly reasonably, as in to say, “I trust the scientific method when I have a cold or don’t want to walk miles to reach my destination, but when it implies that I or my team might be wrong about something, it must be just someone’s opinion or the devil trying to trick me.” I’ve mostly always found it disconcerting logically when imagining a being having lived an eternity, as in a domain of all time, far beyond the few millenia that humans have had to create rhetoric and understandings, that would be “ethical” or “moral” in a human relation…to view the universe as a whole over billions of trillions of nanillions of years and all the possibility and then view just a tiny piece of that which has been human dominated on a single planet in a single galaxy which is still changing and will eventually die out in some way, either in dilution, evolution, the sun giving out, self-destruction(most likely?) and leave other billions of trillions of nanillions of years afterward…so why would an eternal being that is capable of viewing eternity in this way be bound to human sentimentalities or petty ideologies, much less feel any sort of necessity or affiliation or attachment to a speck in the sea of all possibility…more than that, why would it be a being of male gender placement, a moody disposition, and an over-involvement followed by a negligence…it’s really prideful to think that he or she or the great it would give a tiny baby shit about the words out of your mouth, you, your country, your planet, your galaxy, your time period, and so on and so on. How long did it take to finally get people to give up on the Homeric gods? I guess god only knows how long this is supposed to take. I’m really embarrassed for grown adults citing desperate fairy tales to make their lives important or virtuous without just being virtuous because it makes sense rationally, based on the same logic and reason that brought us out of the mud…if you believe so much that your god is doing more than science and reason, than living in modern civilization in not only blasphemous, but paradoxical at best. If religion had been discovered somehow before reason, our ancestors might never have discovered the wheel or fire, in fact, they might have just prayed for a way to beat the faster predators and gotten eaten alive because they were not all-important acolytes. It was reason that helped us to survive to even the ages of any gods, Homeric, Judeo-Christian, or otherwise, and reason that shows how unnecessary “gods” are to the truth of the world in every practical sense. Every time someone says “god,” I replace it with “my fear of change” or “my irrational belief in something that i needed to get me through something but i need it to mean more to the whole world or else i’ll feel weak and stupid”…everyone feels weak and stupid sometimes, it’s called being alive, you don’t get to just follow lies and lead other people down silly mysticism that isn’t necessary to be a good person or to help or love one another just because it popped up conveniently for you in your first world nation problems…it’s worse that “pride” and even hubris, it’s pompous and it’s just sad…faith makes sense in a sense that truth is difficult, maybe even impossibly difficult, to ascertain and so a level of assumption must be taken on a degree of probability, as in, i have faith that when i walk outside, i will not become a purple marshmallow creature with eyes made out of cotton candy, that is called reasonable faith based on a degree of probability from quantifiable and tested scenarios, not certain, but much more nearly certain than that of a being who knows everything, can do anything, and has been alive for all time is a male who is watching and judging everything that we do and set up this whole universe from the nano-level to the macrocosmic level just for a single species…that means someone’s probability calculator isn’t very good. Thus, the probability that a human that believes this will really assist the epistemology of humankind productively rather than degrade progress with obsolete ideologies is not very high, either. It’s as easy as the probability of if you never plant a tree, how many apples will you have? and then you take away 2.
You’ve never seen God. Yet you believe in his existence.
And Daniel has told you already to stop quoting the bible at us.
” Could it ever be possible that Jesus’ words could have been a) misquoted in the first place b) exaggerated by human nature c) misinterpreted by multiple translations or changes in the meaning of specific words d) flat out changed because the words didn’t jibe with the agenda of the person who was transcribing or translating?”
How do you know that ANY of the bible is right, then?? If the bible is not the inerrant word of God, where are you getting ‘what you think about the nature of God’ from? Are you making it all up in your head? If so, it’s only good enough for you, and WE can’t be expected to follow along with it.
Well, Russ, you are wrong. New species have been observed. It’s happening right now with dogs. Additionally, the biblical account of a literal 6 day creation has NO empirical evidence to back it up, while evolution has mountains of evidence. If you doubt me, then I suggest you read the primary sources, available here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
Go ahead and type in evolution into the search box.