Hundreds of proofs of God's existence

I think argument 79 is a bit harsh – there’s no need to belittle the religious just because of their ignorance. Some of my closest family, and also some of the most convincing Christians I’ve met, have attributed their faith to a personal experience – without it, they would probably have left the church.

I don’t think they are insane, I think they just aren’t aware of how powerful the mind can be at convincing us of something that isn’t there. Dawkins touches on this in “The God Delusion”, giving examples of optical and audible illusions (p.112 in my edition).

Another eye-opener for me was watching Derren Brown. His tricks are simply astounding, and are all the proof you can ever need that the brain is capable of being soundly fooled. Search for his material on YouTube – the “Messiah” series is often quoted, but also see the episode where he uses a video game to hypnotise someone, and then physically moves them to a warehouse where he has re-created the world of the game (I think it’s labelled “zombie”).

I warn you though, he doesn’t seem to mind his material being on the web for free, so there is a lot, and it is extremely addictive stuff!

I think #210 actually explains all religious belief.

Sounds like you have been hurt really badly by the church or some people within it.

I am sorry.

@6 Raphael

> paul merrill

> …

> Just look:

> 228. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
> (1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
> (2) Therefore the Bible is true.
> (3) The Bible says God exists.
> (4) Therefore, God exist.

> …

Where in the Holy Bible can items #1 & #2 above be found?

The vast majority of the strange things that are pointed to here and other places in this blog originate from the Old Testament. It was written for the ancient people, who did not have the advantage of perspective that we have today. Thus the supernatural events described there. All of these stories had a purpose: to entrench a set of moral values into a culture. It’s similar to Greek mythology in that respect.

Most of the complaints I see here and other places are not against the institution of Christianity or it’s ideas, but against the Church and it’s lack of communication skills.

Jesus says a lot of things about the way that you should act, but the entire teachings of the church can be boiled down to this:

Assumption 1: God exists, and resides in heaven
Assumption 2: Man is incapable of entering heaven alone.

Therefore, God sent his son, Jesus, to die for Man, to allow him to enter heaven.
(I’m sure you already know all this, Daniel.)

The entire idea of Christianity is having the humility to believe that you are incapable of achieving paradise after death alone, and accept the help of a greater being. All the other stuff is icing on the cake.

I’m not fooling myself into thinking that this will change any of your minds, but I just thought that a concisely worded explanation of the beliefs of Christianity would be helpful for anyone reading this that maybe doesn’t quite understand. I’ve described my rationale for believing this somewhere else on this blog.

Cheers!
Eric

I totally like 266 and stuff and stuff… ;)

Hi all, I want to apoligise for any grammer or spelling mistakes I might make, as english is not my home language.

My argument is my life story(don’t worry I’ll keep it short)

I’m a 24 year old male from Johannesburg, South Africa.

I was born a christian, was forced to go to a spiritually dead church for 18 years, as soon as I was old enough I ran from Christianity never to look back again. I knew all the stories, the hyms and the answers to religious questions, I was programmed over 18 years. But I DIDN’T KNOW JESUS!!!!

I started on a destructive journey(But I didn’t know that)
I got involved with Alcohol, Drugs, Prostitution and some other filthy stuff I don’t even want to mention.

Everything came crashing down 1 Sunday morning, I couldnt take it anymore, I went out searching for love but all I found was a hatefull world, I went out searching for purpose but it only left me feeling useless. I gave myself over to living for pleasure but it only brought pain.
Was this it? Where is the Happily ever after that all of us is looking for. On that Sunday morning all alone only one name came up in my moment of hopelessnes.
Jesus, Jesus,Jesus.

I took a step of faith and asked Jesus to pick me up out of this dirty mess I called my life……. And He did more than that, He picked me up, cleaned me up, gave me new hope, new life and new purpose. You Americans have a term Jesusfreak…… thats me totday 8 months later.
I can’t deny Him, for I know He is, therefore I am.
I can try my best to explain it but It’s something you have to experience for yourself.

He fills you with love, you feel so loved that all you want to do is tell the whole world about Jesus over and over. Every time I hear His name my heart goes warm and I get a tear in my eye.

I stumbled onto this site by accident, but I don’t believe in accidents.
If you read this and feel your heart being moved to call on the name above all names do it, what have you got to lose?

And if you still don’t believe in God, no worries He believes in you. And I promise you that He will keep sending people like me across your path… WHY? … because He loves you.

Daniel my friend I read that you are looking for the truth,
John14:6 Jesus said: I am the way the TRUTH and the life.

Be blessed in Jesus name.

Assumption 1: God exists, and resides in heaven
Assumption 2: Man is incapable of entering heaven alone.

Therefore, God sent his son, Jesus, to die for Man, to allow him to enter heaven.

Can you not see how incoherent this is? It makes no sense at all.

@spence-bob:

The idea is based on the hebrew tradition of animal sacrifices. They believed they deserved to die for their sins, so they ritually cleansed themselves and the sacrificial animal before killing it in place of themselves. People would sacrifice things like sheep or doves. Thus Christ as the sacrifice for all of humanity.

Man, this post is fantastic. I giggled the whole way through.

I’ve been a fan of Dawkins for a little while and I was going down a similar path as you, as far as ex-Christian status goes.

You’re definitely a kindred spirit.

so … why don’t you try to create an another version of Qur’an

I think it’s the best challenging activity for you…
if you able to do it.. you’ll be the next God!

The Qur’an itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it.

017.088
Say: “If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

src:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

Hi Daniel. Great blog and the discussion threads are generally civil and intelligent – a far cry from most religious/anti-religious blogs on the web.

So, yes this is a humorous list; however, having been a Christian for 15 years and in the church most of my life I have a few observations (wouldn’t you know).

First, I’ve known a lot of Christians over the years but I can’t think of too many that would heartily stand behind any of these fallacies for long. When pressed, most Christians readily admit that the first node in their religious worldview flowchart is a FAITH in god – not a proof of gods’ existence.

Sure it’s easy to believe that most Christians are fundamentalist whackjobs with little to no capacity for rational thought but, in my experience that simply isn’t true.

In one response to Divan, you get pretty dogmatic by stating “…you need to realize there is absolutely no evidence for God…”. I don’t know, I look around and I see evidence for the existence of God everywhere – no proof, though. I also see evidence that God may not exist.

Of course, we all know the final verdict, right? In the absence of absolutely provable absolute truth, my explanation for reality is based on the existence of God, your is not. Perhaps some time in the future we’ll find out the truth – perhaps we will not. In the meantime, ignorance is bliss for everyone, isn’t it?

As a Christian, my charge for this life comes from Romans 12…
“Do not pay anyone back evil for evil, but focus your thoughts on what is right in the sight of all people. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live in peace with all people.”

Works for me. Thanks for your work here, Daniel.

I was a fundamental atheist but now I am not.

I really would like to be able to get along with religious people. There are, however, two kinds of religious people I cannot tolerate:

1. Proselytizers. Anyone who makes conversation with the ulterior motive of converting another person to their faith is beneath contempt, and generally intolerable.

2. Political activists. Anyone who pushes to restrict another’s freedom based on his own religious rules is a blight upon society, and cannot be tolerated.

wow, those reasons that god exists suck. there is no proof.

Try this one. In broad strokes:

A) Jews claim that God revealed Himself to the whole nation at Mount Sinai.
B) During that revelation He commanded them with many, many commandments. Some of those commandments were to thenceforth remember that very revelation on daily, weekly, monthly and yearly bases.
C) Now, with a revelation made to only one person, and then communicated to a larger group, it would have been imaginable, and indeed highly likely that either the revelation was a fake, or the message corrupted.
D) This revelation, however, was claimed to be made to a whole nation — 3 million people — all at once.
E) It is not reasonable to suggest that 3 million people would all simultaneously choose to invent a highly complex and demanding law (just ask your local talmudic scholar) and then keep to that law for 3500 years. (especially one that contains within it self referential reminders every day, week, month and year)
F) It is much more reasonable to propose that the revelation was indeed a true revelation of God.

Notes:
i) This argument rests upon the fact that Jews make the claim. No one else even dares make such an outlandish claim. Imagine President Obama addressing the nation about the alien visitors who descended from on high and broadcast muffin recipes into the minds of every American one hour after the close of his inauguration ceremony. He can’t claim that because it would be a claim that rests on your experience.

ii) Let’s say a nation could somehow pull off such a claim, and that really it’s not such a special thing. If that’s the case, how come the Jews are the only ones to ever attempt it? Surely if it was not supernatural (read: natural) for such claims to be made, it would have happened more than once (because natural things happen more than once)

This is called the “historical proof,” the “proof from Sinai” or the “kuzari principle”. See Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb for a more thorough and accurate treatment.
http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/publications.htm

I’ve been struck by lightening while helping and old lady. Now I don’t want God anywhere near me.

I think that one trapping in particular keeps people believing in a God.

1) Faith is a test to determine the value of your soul.
2) Evil will do anything to get you to doubt your faith.
3) Therefore, God exists.

or

1) If God doesn’t exist, then I’m wrong about everything.
2) I can’t be wrong about everything I’ve believed in.
3) Therefore, God exits.

People have huge egos, which prevent them from seeing the truth and then traps them circular logic. This allows them to function without falling into a never ending spiral of self-doubt and confusion. Only someone that truly desires to find the truth can see things for what they really are. Since most religious people are only looking for an easy way to relieve their guilty conscience, they rarely see things for what they are.

Hi there,

I’m not really interested about this, however let me share with you some thoughts. I’ll do what I can with my english.

If I had to understand believers’ point of view, first of all I’d read Plato. I’d agree with his idea of beauty: yes, you and I may have different opinions about the beauty or the uglyness of this particular object; but the point is that we both share an (empty) notion of beauty. This concept has to do with proportions, numbers and maths. We’ve got indeed a cientific heritage, that comes from this theory of a numeric base of what we call “reality”.

So yes, reality may correspond with beauty, and also with what is good itself. Because amongst all possible human behaviours, those that are adequated with this “reality” mentioned before are going to be successful, and give positive feedback to the one who puts them in practice. An example: evolution.

At this point, I’d be certainly more ready to accept that someone may want to see a God behind all this, and pray him if that makes him happier.

Religions are sometimes just this. However, I understand that America’s believers’ stereotype is just dull. And most atheists too. “You are not well read”. That’s the reason why typical internet’s “god’s controversy” is so primitive.

I have just stumbled upon your blog, so I’m not up on your full story. Some of the comments here stimulated my mind and I just wanted to share my thoughts. I don’t know whether I would classify myself as a believer or not – I think perhaps agnostic might be the best label.

As we explore the universe around us, I think it is good to keep in mind that we are limited – at least in our current form. (Who knows what the future holds?) I do think that science and scientific reasoning have greatly aided our progress, but they are both limited by our perceptual and intellectual ability. It should be kept in mind that science is not the only way to explore the universe around us and that other, older methods should not be discarded without reason or unbiased investigation. Remember, Christianity – and many other religions – have caused our progress to suffer with the same mentality – to discard old ways in favor of new, just because they are old.

In order for our species to have the best possible chance of survival, I think we need to be ready and willing to use all of our faculties to the best of our ability – including logical, emotional, and intuitive reasoning.

All that being said, there are many aspects of religion that I find unsettling or distasteful, but I think that is mostly due to the corruption of some rather good ideas by less spiritually evolved people and/or institutions. One thing in particular, though, is the Christian idea (though it may exist in other religions) of either eternal punishment or reward for temporal behavior. This is something that my mind, nay my very being, cannot accept. And so, I will likely never find myself beholden to any belief system that incorporates such a belief.

I think I’ve gone on long enough. Daniel, thank you for this forum. To all, may you find peace along your path and take heart that there are other explorers with you!

Cheers!

For those of you who are genuinely interested, look into writings by Alvin Plantinga, Richard Swinburne, and William Lane Craig.

I am a Christian and the notion that there are scientific or logical proofs for the existence of God is completely foreign to me. Faith pertains to belief in the absence of available means for achieving such proof. No faith is required if one already possesses absolute proof. So I believe in God and you do not, each of us in the absence of scientific or logical proof for our belief. One of us is right and one of us is wrong.

So the list of “proofs” is an argument for what exactly? I have a lot of trouble distinguishing it from school yard taunting of the sort “your mother wears army boots” (I know, that’s an old one, but at least it’s clean). If you cannot tolerate or respect those with religious beliefs enough to rise above the all too pervasive counterargument-by-ridicule strategy, what is the purpose of the blog? Perhaps you did not intend for Christians to read your blog. Perhaps there is no desire to dissuade Christians from their beliefs. Perhaps this blog is meant to be an atheists-only discussion. But even in a private racially homogeneous setting, I still think ridiculing another race is wrong, so I’m necessarily disappointed that your journey can’t be blogged without degenerating to ridiculing others. Yes, I do realize that you will find believers that may use some variation of your “proofs”, but an intellectually honest counterargument does not leverage the poorly versed or deviating cases. It is no more correct to debate proof of God citing theists that do not really grasp faith than it is to debate morality citing atheist rapists – neither are representative of the belief systems in question.

FWIW, I arrived here from Reddit, without a doubt the most intolerant environment I’ve ever been in. The raw hatred for those with religious beliefs there is mind blowing – I would truly fear for my safety if it were a physical environment. Aside from the ridicule, the poisonous atmosphere is not so intense here. I know, I didn’t have to visit this blog and perhaps your domain name should have been a hint, but finding a civil theist-atheist discussion site is not easy. Try to keep things honest, Daniel.

Consider the question of the existence of God by imagining that God exists. That is to say if God exists then is this best world that a supernatural all powerful entity would create?

It is possible there is an unknowable, ineffable entity that only created the laws of physics over 13.4 billion years ago (why?) that evolved in to the universe we have today. That doesn’t mean I would worship it or that it would “care” if I did or not. The universe was not created for my benefit or any life form if you just look at how hostile it is to life; radiation and extreme temperatures. If this entity was actually caring and all powerful as many religions attempt to convince then imagine how nice life on Earth could be with just some simple adjustments and occasional interference that any caring entity would make. Now that life forms have evolved to result in humans after the last big cosmic catastrophe reset the planet’s balance of creatures would it be too difficult for a God who cares to simply prevent any further asteroids or other space debris from crashing into the planet? It would be an undetectable tweak to the orbit of the object and not seem to violate the laws of physics. Do we need volcanoes? Would it not be easy for a loving God to toss appropriate anti-viruses into the environment whenever bad viruses popped up? What if mosquitos and other blood sucking disease spreading creatures hated the taste of primate blood? How hard would that be to do? Change a couple of links on the DNA and they just buzz around slurping nectar. Or why have them at all? Think of the misery that would have been avoided. Wouldn’t life be easier if all animals could generate some energy from photosynthesis directly? So what if we had green skin as a result? What about tweaking DNA so that everyone is twice as smart as we are? Maybe overpopulation, pollution and other short sighted human actions would be avoided and life on Earth would be less of a competition for resources and struggle against the fear of the ignorant.

In summary there is no God because everything can be explained by understanding the sciences, not attributing it to a careless super being who obviously doesn’t care to do things in our benefit.

I “experienced” Jesus when I smoked pot once. What does that mean?

277. You seriously lack something called “BRAIN”

Its fair enough to become disillusioned with the church, I mean evangelicals are the more extreme.
However this doesn’t mean you have to go the polar opposite direction and gobble up the words of another man who is just as credible as those who wrote the scriptures you now denounce.

There are other options, other teachings that do not set out to attack or discredit. philosophies that embrace the core values that we all yearn for.

Have a look at Eckhart Tolle, he is a truly wise man.

as Jesus said, Gods kingdom is within us.

don’t be fooled by the aggression of scholars. follow your heart, for within your heart lies the answers.

Yo Dawg
Can you please compile a similar list of arguments for non-existence of God. I mean just to be fair?

165. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
(1) That’s really cool.
(2) God must have done that.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

This is hilarious! Great list!

David

@icefire
Essentially, that is saying: Someone made claims that are impossible to disprove until I am dead. Since I cannot disprove these claims, I believe in them. The thing is that you trust in Jesus’ word from the start because you believe in his divine nature. If Jesus was just a schmoe like the rest of us, then he is just as prone to human mistakes and deception as anyone. And without being so scholarly on the Bible (tried reading it, never could get through it: I find it boring, childish, and frankly immoral), I feel quite sure that many parts of the Bible have in fact been disproved.

A few things I always found fascinating about faith is: how do you pick your faith? I mean, there are hundreds of religions out there, each claiming to be the right one. So let’s say I truly and honestly felt like there was a supernatural explanation to the world, how do I know which one to pick? The one most accepted in my immediate environment? (ie. christianity), the oldest one? (must be something like buddhism or judaism-or actually polytheism of course). People in each faith feel a profound connection to their’s, but each contradicts the other, how to find out which one is right?

Another thing is that all monotheistic religions have a starting point in history. There was man before monotheism was invented. Therefore, was every man who lived before the prophet of whichever religion came along to enlighten them condemned in the eyes of God for not believing in something that had not been revealed to him?
All those Chinamen who lived before Renaissance brought explorers with western religion, were they sent to Hell without ever having a chance to believe? That’s one of the reason to me (if there is a God, which I don’t believe)
he is either: not a loving God, for he does not give all humans the same opportunity to be enlightened by him
OR he cannot require specific beliefs/rituals in order to accept you as a good person.
Which means most of Western religions get sent down the crapper.

That wondrous feeling of love some get from Jesus, or religious experiences, is the chemical dopamine rushing through your brain. The same chemistry as when you fall in love. Studies have shown that all religions share this ability for dopamine release, whether praying or meditating, etc..

christianity is not a religion. It is a state of being. It is not believeing in God or Jesus. Satan knows them to be true. He lived with them. Even the atheist knows in his heart that God exists he just refuses to admit it. Man did not come from a fish or a monkey or any other animal. Man just uses that reasoning to keep from admitting the truth that he and every other human in the world knows. And that is that there is a higher power that created him and the animals man claims he came from. And Daniel, if you were truly a Christian, which I believe you were and still are, you are creating a huge stumbling block for those who are not. God and Jesus love you, you were givin a job and you got disenchanted with it so you came up with this to excuse yourself. And the only way you could justify it was to start this blog. I cannot cast judgement on you but God will. He doesnt punish Christians in heaven he punishes us down here. That is why you see Christians suffer and non-Christians prosper. Don’t get me wrong, you are not the only one who feels the way you do. God expects us to feel like this. He isn’t going to cast us out or disown us for these feelings even if we do Him. There is nothing we do or think that He doesn’t already know about. Please take these words to heart and pray. Come back. We all love you.

Most of my Atheist friends seem fond of this argument against God’s existence:

1. Religion is bad.
2. Therefore, God does not exist.

Anyone who would say that there are no gods because religion is bad would qualify as an idiot.

Religion is bad because it has been demonstrated to be detrimental to society. This is incidental to, and is not a proof or disproof of, the supernatural.

Claims to the supernatural cannot, by definition, be disproved. People who experience a “supernatural” phenomena will usually believe in the face of ample evidence to the contrary. That’s just the way the human mind works with these sorts of things. We like everything around us to make sense, and are even willing to accept ideas that have no rational merit simply because they sound good and ease the discomfort of not knowing.

The scientific process was developed in order to compensate for this human deficiency, and has been an invaluable tool in scientific and medical fields to weed out the snake oil that plagued us for so many millenia.
So, too, has it proven an effective tool in disproving the various claims of every mainstream religion with regards to their coded histories and “truths”.

You won’t ever find an absolute proof of anything without having knowledge of everything. Not even gravity can be absolutely proven, even though we experience it every day and take it for granted.
You can, however, dissect arguments and ideas, and use a rational method to determine their accuracy and merit. Without such a process, you are left without a rudder, to be tossed about by competing ideas until you latch upon anything that passes by so as to give yourself the illusion of stability.
Indeed, this is how we went from Pythagoras to the Salem witch trials.

I don’t see how the “god” idea would have an advantage in poetry. Poetry is thin light shone into the recesses of the self. It is an examination of the things which drive us, held up to be presented rather than judged. In poetry, even the ugly is beautiful.

I’m afraid I don’t understand what you mean by synthetization…

@icefire:

What you believe is of no consequence to the universe.
You can believe that you are free of gravity, but that won’t save you if you fall from a cliff.
You can believe that you are free of the need for air, but that won’t save you if you get dragged away by an undercurrent.
You can believe that the Newtonian laws don’t apply to you, but that won’t stop the truck from smacking into you and killing you as you confidently walk in front of it.

And similarly, you can believe that you’ve evaded death by believing in a god. But the truth is, you have nothing more than a subjective “feeling” to convince you of your immortality (the same subjective feeling that convinces billions of other people of their salvation in their various gods or supernatural forces). In the end, your body will fall apart and die. You can believe that you have a soul that lives on, but that won’t make it real any more than believing in Santa Claus or Vishnu or John Frum will make them real.

Daniel, I couldn’t help but notice that your responses to me and eth were short polite and to the point. You did not respond to any of our claims. We know how you feel. I truly believe we were brought here to talk to you and the lost saints like you. I believe you didn’t respond because we can see through you and this wall you have tried to put up. I believe you did not respond because you cannot argue the truth and the only defense you have left is denial. I believe right now at this very moment that there is a feeling a twinge a tug in your soul that is the Holy Spirit that dwells within every Christian, even those who make futile attempts at trying to turn. Deny all you want Daniel. That is the only proof you have that God does not exist. And you know it. What you are doing here is not helpful. It steers would be Christians away from God. You know as well as I do that words can sway opinion. What if there was a weak soul that stumbled across this sight and read all the arguments against His existence and believed them. Then this same person drives to a friends house but gets into a wreck and dies. Where does their soul end up Daniel? You know, I know, and so does every wannabe atheist on this sight and all over the world. And guess who led them down that path. Ihope and pray for you and all your so-called ex-Christian friends will read this and take it to heart and stop all this nonsense. There is more at stake here than your pride and your fragile little feelings. Whatever it was that hurt you and brought you down this path is long gone. Let it go and be strong and hold on to the faith.

God, Jesus, me, and eth love you

Wolter, since you are a “thinking person” Stop being so closed minded. And blind is exactly what faith is. Congratulations on figuring that out by youself. If you keep up your close-minded rantings you’ll probably figure it all out. Second of all, who elected you as the spokesperson for Daniel? You apparently have no idea what goes on in a Christians soul or you would know what is happening inside of Daniel. Now if you don’t mind I will pray for you and hopefully we can talk later when you have some idea of what is going on.

Have a blessed day

Wolter, You are closed minded because you thinking people have a reason and an answer for everything. You won’t give God a chance.

I don’t even have to answer the second question.

Whos soul are you referring to? Daniels or yours. Daniel is a Christian, you maybe not. Christians recognize, Wolter. There is a power higher than you and your human reasoning you cannot even begin to fathom. God doesn’t give us the answer to everything. Read Job in the bible. Son, we know other things that only Christians who study the bible and pray for guidence would know. You can’t just read the bible. You have to accept Jesus as you savior and put your blind faith in Him. Then you read the bible with an open mind and realize God is not going to give you every answer. Just know that He loves you no matter what.

I apologize if you did not recognize my comment for what it was. I should have explained to you what I meant. I assumed you were well read in the bible and the goings on in the Christian world since you jumped into mine and Daniels business with both feet. Just from that statement of yours I would conclude that you have not been saved by the blood of Jesus and given yor life to God. Once again I apologize. Like I said, I will pray for you.

Why do you call me sir , Walter? That is a sign of respect. I speak for God and Jesus and all that is in heaven. You speak for a man that is scared and lost. Faith does not need evidence. Faith is faith. You boy, are the only one here who does not know the truth. You are scared and fall back on your worldly education. And hide behind your big words. Impressive. But I know subconciously you are hoping no one else will see through your defenses. You say some mighty pretty words. And you think I can’t understand them well you would be wrong. You have not given anything a chance or you wouldn’t be talking like this. God does not let people down. You gave up on Him. You may be smart and educated but when it comes to Christianity you are dumb as a stump and you don’t want anyone to know. You are religiously stupid. That’s why you wait for some wayward Christian to come on this sight think they are weak and below your education level then pounce on them and their beliefs. You would be considered a cyber terrorist boy. Congratulations again. Whatever point you are trying to prove is falling to the ground and being trampled on by the truth. With God on my sde you are the only one that will lose in this little war of words. Like all unsaved you have taken my words twisted them to fit what you want and like Daniel put up a stumbling block for every lost soul who stumbles on this God forsaken sight. Congratulations again Waltor. If you will go back over all thatr has been said you are the only one who sounds off. Once you see past your education. Like I said just cause you read something doesn’t mean you got it.
And how do you know demonic possession doesn’t exist? Do you think a mother of two in her right mind would drive her car with children inside into a lake and leave them to drown??? Or the terrorists of 9-11, Would my Christian God tell them to fly those planes and kill all those innocent people???? Twist that around boy. Make me believe it. Say what you want. Use whatever big words you can. I ask you the same question I asked daniel. If a lost boy or girl came on this sight and read your blasphemous words, belived them, never turned to the Christian God, my God, for salvation, then got tragically killed, who is responsible for them spending eternity in hell? Me or you?
Write soon and don’t call me sir. I’m not your Father.

Is that it?? That is all you have?? Stand up and fight like a man for your beliefs. You have nothing . That’s the only point you have made. You are not as educated as you thought, your words have no merit, you boy are lacking any kind of moral upbringing and my heart truly aches for you and your kind. I was told years ago not to try to convince someone like you because I would just end up frustrated and the other person would end up destined for hell. I have done you an injustice and I am apologizing for that. Don’t be scared of me, I would never harm you or anyone like you. I can only pray for you and try to make you see the truth. Which I have been a miserable failure obviously. But I am going to ask you to please not attack anyone else here. Your words do more damage than you will ever know.

What you fail to realize is there is something at stake here and that is the salvation of everyone who reads this. I am not a raving lunatic. I just believe that if you believe in something stand up for it withall your heart. This is not a contest between men. It is between satan and God. I happen to be the one on Gods side. You are either for Him or against Him. I am sorry you feel the way you do. Is that a decent modicum of civility?

> so, as you said, dont let you fall into irrational arguments and reply to mine.

Sure thing.

> Why annoys you so much the idea of a god caring of its creation?

Absolutely nothing.

> Or, in other words, why do you think that life cannot have a purpose, a direction, maybe trascendent?

Were any proof of such a thing brought forth, I would examine it and adjust my beliefs accordingly.

> In what point you think it doesnt fit with what we call “reality”?

Basically, I am reluctant to believe something that has no solid evidence to back it up. I mean, how can I know that a particular religion is not just something made up? Where are the facts that I can weigh in a rational fashion so as to come to a solid conclusion?

What makes one idea more meritorious than another is the evidence backing it.

> only that maybe it is an idea that matches the reality better than others, in a more satisfying way.

Indeed it is a perfectly valid idea, but unless there is some compelling evidence to support it, I will probably pay it little heed.

Congratulations Walter. You have told me to do exactly what the bible would have me to do. You have done this before. That is what every man and womans job as a God loving Christian is supposed to do. If you keep it up we might just have a job for you. Thanks for proving my point.
Oh and the massive plot against humanity you speak of is not to harm them but to save them. Christianity isn’t about taking all the fun out of life but rather giving you more life to have fun in.

Thanks again

Do you quote stuff from the bible to argue your point all the time or just when you run out of things to say???
What is this parlance you speak of??
You know the truth why do you refuse to accept it? What good is educating yourself if you let it go to waste?

you know, I’m really tired of christian’s and moslems ruining it for the rest of us. Just because they have a flawed theology, doesn’t mean that other, more reasonable God fearing people should be labeled along with them.

So you are a Christian when it is conveniant?

> So you are a Christian when it is conveniant?

I’m not a christian at all.

> Think about the nature of time-space and do you interact with it and what existence is, if it is something.

While the nature of space-time and our interaction with it makes for fascinating discussion, I have no solid opinion on the matter, and it does not enter into my daily life.

> At what point did I blame something on religion?
>
>> Religion is bad because it has been demonstrated to be detrimental to society.
>
>Here.

Oh yes. I should probably back that up:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

> Obviously we’ve got different views on the nature and function of poetry.

Regardless of our views on poetry, the point of all this is that anyone can posit a hypothesis. However, a hypothesis cannot transform into a theory until there are testable conditions that would prove it false. And even as a theory, it wouldn’t gain much traction without a significant amount of evidence to back it up.

> > how could you differentiate between your religion and another one?
>
> since I do believe in life, I’m ok with every religion that says “You shall not kill”

So if I read this correctly, you are willing to believe a religion that is to your personal liking, and do not feel the need to test whether it is true or simply something made up?

As a side note, no judaic religion says “you shall not kill”. Rather they say “do not commit murder”. For Yahweh has on a number of occasions ordered his people to do genocide and mass killings.

> > The same intuition that gave us lobotomies, astrology, feng shui, aryan supremacy, and the Spanish Inquisition?
>
> don’t mix up intuition with planned, evil, animal interests. Let’s forget empty ideas and talk about richful ones, ok?

I don’t really think that astrology or feng shui are evil…
The point I’m trying to make is: intuition is no substitute for doing your homework. Gottlieb Burckhardt was thoroughly convinced that he was helping his patients by removing portions of their brain. While his intuition told him that it must work, the reality is that he committed an atrocity, and could have avoided it altogether if he’d only stopped to invoke a rational process that tested his hypothesis.

Wolter, are you actually the evil Daniel trying to get into hell?? I think you and daniel are actually one in the same.

> Well, as long as you do exist, it obviously does, despite the fact that you prefer not to deal with it.

It’s not that I prefer not to deal with it; It just doesn’t have any bearing in my day-to-day life, and there is no serious consequence to ignoring it. When I have idle time, I like to play with it.

> you are ready to take literally every part of the old testament.

No, but I generally take literally a number of the historical writings in the Pentateuch.

> I just say that religions usually are harmless

Religions are only harmless if they are powerless. Once they gain power, their dogma usurps reason.

> And don’t mix up rationalism with scientific thought and positivism. You would refuse the value of metaphors, despite their capability to enlighten vast fields of human condition.

Who says I refuse the value of metaphors? They are an effective tool for communicating a ideas. They are not a replacement for a rational process.

dear stavrogin, What!!!!????

> I’d say that the more you are unaware of your situation, the more possible you’re gonna end messed up; so it has serious consequences.

Of course. There’s always a possibility that something you are ignorant of will cause harm.
However, there is a much greater probability of doing harm when you believe something without testing it for validity.

You’re quite skilled on the guitar, btw.

This has to be one of the most entertaining threads I have ever read! It certainly made my tube travels seem a lot shorter today!

@Wolter
>”What you believe is of no consequence to the universe.
>You can believe that you are free of gravity, but that won’t >save you if you fall from a cliff.
>You can believe that you are free of the need for air, but that >won’t save you if you get dragged away by an undercurrent.
>You can believe that the Newtonian laws don’t apply to you, >but that won’t stop the truck from smacking into you and >killing you as you confidently walk in front of it.”

True, while i am alive but the laws of nature you mentioned ?here all become irrelevant if God did create the laws of the universe.gravity,air inertia etc all things we experience or observe but invisible.If God is a pesonal force im sure some would feel His presence and thus reason for faith.

>You can believe that you have a soul that lives on, but that >won’t make it real any more than believing in Santa Claus or >Vishnu or John Frum will make them real.

Santa isn’t real???? haha.

@Mike Friesen

Mike my brother im a little disspointed.Like you know iron sharpens iron so here’s my advice.

>I truly believe we were brought here to talk to you and the >lost saints like you

Yes the great commision entails that we talk about Jesus and what He has done . By Wolter’s reply to this comment you should have dusted your sandles like the diciple’s did when people didn’t want to hear their message. If daniel is a Christian this is not the place to say something like that it sounds abrasive with your overall tone.Almost like a mother disiplining her child infront of his friends.

>What if there was a weak soul that stumbled across this >sight and read all the arguments against His existence and >believed them. Then this same person drives to a friends >house but gets into a wreck and dies

You know God doesn’t work that way.If He did neither of us would have God’s grace. We choose to accept God but that isn’t why we get into heaven.It’s grace and mercy and if God willed no weak soul would even read this post nonless die right after reading it .that’s cruel.

I think you have belief and faith mixed up. Belief comes from the mind, you believe something from reason.Faith is based on belief but isnt belief alone. my belief that a chair is strong enough to hold me doesnt mean it will, i sit down because of faith in that chair. this isn’t faith- does it mean before he died he didn’t call out to Jesus because his friends told him otherwise?

> Now if you don’t mind I will pray for you and hopefully we >can talk later when you have some idea of what is going on.

I wouln’t say that to someone trying to convince him in Jesus.
say that back to yourself does it sound loving?wolter didnt think so below.

Wolter’s reply>
(Absolutely beautiful. A full insult cleverly cloaked in pious )(language. You have done your god proud.)

> Son, we know other things that only Christians who study >the bible and pray for guidence would know.

>I speak for God and Jesus and all that is in heaven. You >speak for a man that is scared and lost. Faith does not need >evidence. Faith is faith.

Im sorry if im coming off strong, im merely trying to show you it from my perspective. This is why people are against Christians because of responses like these.Im a Christian but im also weak and sinfull, “Christian” isn’t a name badge i can wear around and be proud of, it means follower of Christ.No one can speak for God or Jesus except the Holy Spirit.

Like you know our relationship with God is extremely sensitive and at times has lots of emotion.As soon as emotions come into the picture reason goes out the window.That is why we need to humble ourselves.And if you care for daniel- pray silently for him it profits you nor him nothing proclaiming it.

in the end of the day we have to pray and praise God with the same tongue we use to talk to other people.Like you many have made their choices regardless of the evidence that is present or absent.It doesn’t mean we cant talk about religion and it’s opression which exists – why is why im sure many are here on this post. we have no room to judge anyone as we will only condem ourselves.

@ Wolter

I’m sorry for leaving the conversation, but I believed it was time to review what we’ve said, to take another direction on the argument. However, this would take some time and effort, so maybe tomorrow heh.

> The point I’m making is that this feeling can exist with or without gods or the supernatural.

Existence is no such a stable category as to prove it with studies. The point here is that we all have got a similar concept about something trascendent. I see some advantadges in calling it God, for it is a richful metaphor. I don’t mind if you refer to it with another words, whichever you choose. I just felt the benefits of calling it this way and want to show them if anyone requests.

Things aren’t something until you name them. This also means that from the moment you name something it has got some existence, even in the same level than evident things.

I’m intrigued about your beliefs, I mean, are they completely particular of yours, or are they a known confession?

@ Wolter

>but I do not choose to believe simply because others do, nor do I allow others to constrain my thoughts.

neither do I, and I hope not to be the one who’s trying to do such a thing (constrani your thoughts) on you. But, if you don’t care, please answer, which is your religion, your spiritual perspective, or whatsoever?

@ Wolter

I don’t know why you obstinate on calling “supernatural” phenomenons that are present in every man, such as conscience or trascendece. And I mention them without any will of christianizing them.

classical trascendence, the trinity goodness-truth-beauty, I guess, although I’m a bit ignorant about this.

I think that religion or god aren’t supernatural notions, and that removing them you’d undo much work that has been done to explain what a human is and what does it mean his activity. You can answer that questions without that concepts, but you have to put something valuable on the table in their place, otherwise, I won’t believe what you said before about the value of your own reason’s achievements.

Daniel: I’m so happy to have found your blog and will read it thoroughly. My daughter, 26 and an alcoholic, has now become addicted to Jesus. It’s like she’s had a big glass of the koolaid. It’s frightening to see. I’m hoping your blog will help me understand this. They tithe to their Non-denominational Christian church but have trouble making their utility bills. Both she and her husband have Masters Degrees, yet choose to work in low paying religious work. It boggles my mind and has put a huge divide in our relationship. I’m hoping your blog will help me understand this myopic thinking. Thank you for bringing a sensibility to the forefront.

ARGUMENT FROM DRACULA
1) Everyone is afraid of Dracula
2) (Therefore, Dracula is afraid of Dracula)
3) Dracula is afraid of no one but me
4) Therefore I am Dracula, Bwa-ha-ha-HA!
5) Therefore, Dracula exists.
6) By substitution, I lied, I’m not really Dracula, I prefer to be called GOD.
7) Therefore, God exists.

Mathematically, there is nothing wrong with the above argument (the same could be said for some of the arguments above and/or at godlessgeeks.) For an argument to be logically correct it need not follow that the individual statements are actually true. Clearly I am not, nor ever have been, Dracula. I love garlic, honest. No – I was God all along.

Hoo boy…

> If there’s no God there is no such thing as truth, just opinion.

Says who? If you want to argue logically, you’ll have to do more than conjecture.

> If you really believe atheistic evolution is sure, you would know there is no way of knowing your brain has evolved enough to know what is true.

Really? What’s 2+2? What happens when you drop an iron ball and a feather from the same height on the moon?

> In REAL evolution theory there is no such thing as freedom to “decide” anything. You are just chemicals, upbringing, culture and animal.

What makes you so sure that chemicals, upbringing, culture and animal makes people incapable of deciding something?

> (1) There is a God. There is no doubt, the evidence is convincing -

There might very well be convincing evidence, but you haven’t presented any. I’ve read your dissertation in the link provided and am very disappointed.
You start off on the wrong track by misleading the reader as to the nature of “nothing” in your “Cosmological argument”. It takes very little digging to glean an understanding of the scientific meaning of “nothing”, but you’ve chosen instead to use the common definition in order to muddy the waters. That is either deliberate deception or incredibly sloppy work.
You then go on to assert that your god is the “first cause”, presenting once again no evidence to support your claim. This is called conjecture.

Your Teleological argument is the same old tired argument that theologists bring to the table every time. You start with the tautology of “Everything complex must have a designer. Everybody knows that!”, and it all goes downhill from there. I could waste time deconstructing this argument, but I and many others have done it many, many times over and quite frankly I’m tired of it. I’ll just post a link instead: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5MXTBGcyNuc&feature=channel

Your “Anthropological argument” is laughable, and shows that you know virtually nothing on the subject. If you did, you’d know that animals have emotions, express love and affection, cry, express joy, get depressed, etc.
You might believe that man has no value outside of a god-universe, but that most certainly doesn’t make you right; It only proves that you are too afraid to live without a crutch.
Once again, a lot of prose with no proofs.

The “Ontological Argument”… Oh my. More conjecture and tautology. I especially liked your “man has an intuition about ‘a God’. Intuition is an understanding and knowledge without the process of reasoning or dependant on IQ or education.” Really classy. Did you know that intuition is what guided Hitler in his firm belief that the Jews were inferior beings, and must be expunged from Germany? He needed no proof; he KNEW that they were inferior.

And if you’re going to throw out quotes by famous people, PLEASE make sure they actually support your position, or at the very least don’t take them out of context. The full text to the Albert Einstein quote is available at http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/library/ae_scire.htm

If you take the time to read it, you’ll realize that he is arguing AGAINST your kind of god, and specifically AGAINST the argument you quoted him to support.

I could go on, but I hardly see the point.

“175. ARGUMENT FROM STAR TREK
(1) You will be assimilated.
(2) All your salvations [are] belong to us.
(3) Resistance is futile.
(4) Therefore, God exists.”

HAHAHAHAHA! Lol. Has to be one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on the Internet! “All your salvations [are] belong to us.”

I can’t believe you guys are still going on about this. Jesus lives. When you are dead It will be to late. Ha! Ha for you.

Love this blog! Glad I found it today. And I am laughing until coffee comes out my nose at your excerpts on this page. hehehe!

| 228. ARGUMENT FROM THE SCIENCE (II)
| (1) The SCIENCE says the SCIENCE is true.
| (2) Therefore the SCIENCE is true.
| (3) The SCIENCE says God does not exist.
| (4) Therefore, God does not exist.

Science does not say that science is true (because science is a process, not a fact).
Science does not say that God does not exist. It can, however, be applied in order to show that your god is not much more likely to exist than other gods.

| 165. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
| (1) That’s really cool.
| (2) NATURAL SELECTION must have done that.
| (3) Therefore, God does not exist.

Sorry, not the same argument. Not even close.
Almost every discussion with a christian eventually involves the “this is so complicated and cool that only a superior intelligence like my god could have done it.”
Here’s how it really goes:
(1) That’s really cool.
(2) Here’s a shitload of evidence that it’s natural selection.
(3) Therefore, it’s most likely natural selection.

| 100. ARGUMENT FROM RICHARD DAWKINS
| (1) God does not exist.
| (2) [Theist makes counterarguments.]
| (3)You are a wicked, reason-hating-crusading-moronic-closed-minded philistine and you must be burned at the stake for your intolerance.

Hmm. I must have missed that episode.

| 139. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (II)
| (1) God, you don’t exist. Since you don’t exist, don’t bother giving me a sign.
| (2)
| (3) Therefore, God does not exist.

Actually, it goes: If you want to make an extraordinary claim, have some extraordinary evidence to back it up. Otherwise get in line behind Buddha, Allah, John Frum, Vishnu, Zeus and the rest of them.

| 666.ARGUMENT FROM WE’RE WITTIER THAN YOU
| (1)All your argumentz r really dumb and stuff
| (2)We make fun of ur arguments relly funneh
| (3)Therefore, God does not exist.

Actually I believe it goes:
(3) Therefore, you’re not smart enough to be convincing.

Da Man. There are 3 groups of religions.
1. Catholics
2. Jews
3. Protestants
The protestants are broken down into groups. Some of them being
1. Baptists
2.Methodists
3.Lutheran
and so on. The methodists and Lutheran broke away from the Catholics a few hundred years ago. The Christians the ones who follow Christ fall into these 3 groups. There is a long history following the death of Christ. Starting mainly with the persecution and deaths of many thousands who followed Jesus and claimed to be Christians. That still goes on to this day. The Catholics killed followers because they would not claim that the wine they drank at communion actually turned into Christs blood. The Jews don’t believe the Messiah has come. They are still waiting for the 1st coming of Christ, while Christians are waiting for His 2nd coming.
There is just so much history and different ideals that go into each protestant religion that you can’t pinpoint just one as being Christian. The Puritans and Calvinists are extreme Protestants. Back when the “New World”. was started, Puritanism was the law. Church and state were not seperated. If you broke the law it was basically the church that punished the guilty. Witchcraft, Janet, was against the law. Punishment for that crime was death. Now, while the way in which the accused were determined to be witches was not necessarily Christianly, torture until confession, the punishment as was written in the law fit the crime. So, as the world and times progressed, thankfully so did the religions of the world. Yes Puritans by todays standards were questionable Christians, back then they were doing what they thought was right. I am a Christian. Todays christians practice our religions to what we know as the will of God. Back in the 1600′s you guys would all be put to death for your beliefs. But this is a new generation a new time. We are open-minded and for the most part freewill is a part of our lives. Our country was founded on Christian principles. All of our Nations founding fathers were Christians. Atheism as far as I can tell is a fairly new thing started by men who took advantage of the seperation of church and state. So it is not something I would put any stock in. If you will just look down thru history you will see that the belief in God was at the core of every civilization, even if it was not Allah or Yaweh or Zeus. God or various gods were the center of peoples lives. Look at Rome for example. Many gods for many different things. They wouldn’t even go to war unless they recieved a sign from their god. Atheism as far as I am concerned was made up by men who are afraid to dedicate themselves to anything. The people who practice it are wasting their time. Maybe they provide some kind of service to their given society and maybe they are here so people like myself will cement themselves further into their religion which has proven to be the case here. So maybe you guys aren’t a waste. You have made me realize that just because I believe in Jesus everything is not ok. I would rather believe in multiple gods than to be a self proclaimed atheist. Any way when I say Christianity is not a religion I simply mean that it is a personal relationship with my Savior and not any religion in particular.

I know I’m going to regret getting involved in this, but…

Three groups of religions? The Muslims, Pagans, and Hindus that I know will be surprised to hear this.

And how does one “practice” atheism? Does practice make perfect?

Judaism is Christian? Again, the jews I know would be surprised.

You make my head hurt, Mike.

I think you are willfully baiting us into arguing with you. There is no way you could be this clueless.

I’m done here. I’m turning off the email notifications so that I won’t be sucked back into the circularity of this argument.

@ Daniel
I wish there was something I could say to make you turn back. I know this is a decision you have made by yourself, so I alone am not going to be able to change your mind. We are all in His flock. Some of us never decide to go with the rest. Some of us go with the rest and then leave never to come back. God made a few of us shepherds to tend His flock. Our job is to find the ones who have lost their way. And when we find them we are to do everything in our power to bring them back. If we don’t then we have failed the job He gave us. But at the same time we as His shepherds cannot spend our entire time with one of the flock at the risk of losing more. Maybe I have said the wrong things. Maybe I have said too much or too little. But I believe my work here is done. If you were truely saved in the beginning then God is still working on you. And I am going to leave you to him. The work you are doing here is going to, in the long run, hurt more than help. You said to me previously that emotional pleas will fall on deaf ears, but the time for that is long gone. You have quite a little following on here and they are dedicated to this site and what it stands for. I can see by their silence they have reached some kind of collective agreement about not signing on until I am gone. I think that is funny. If I truly believed in something you would never be able to shut me up. Until now that is what they have done. Too bad. At any rate, I hope someday somehow you will see what is right. I applaud your effort, God could really use a man like you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9IPoAdct8

what a frikken dickhead

Wolter my friend, God does not deal with the children. Only their parents. It was the parents that made the decision for the children. Human decision has been the downfall of all mankind. Not Gods. He gives you a choice and a freewill. Just like I give my kids. They know what is right and wrong and I don’t stand over them evrysecond to make sure they do what I say. They have the choice. They do wrong they suffer the consequences. Same with humans and God.
I thought you were a Christion at some point in your life.
Has your age of intellectual reason made you forget all you have learned? Animals have no souls Wolter. They don’t go to heaven or hell. God wanted every peice of their civilizations wiped out. No exceptions.
If there was an osiris and whatever other god you said I wouldn’t care if I was evil to them. God is the only one I have to be worried about.

Wolter why do you act like you are stupid? I know you are not. For every question there is an answer. God wasn’t punishing the children. Yes He had them killed but at the fallacies of their parents. Whom He gave the opportunities too. Have you ever told an infant to do something Wolter? Stop acting stupid. Sure you can do evil to something without a soul. God said kill they killed. I am not mistaken about God Wolter. He is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

“He had the children killed along with the women and old people because they were beyond redemption”

Interesting, tell me more of what your imaginary god can’t do.

“If I keep one wandering lost child of God from turning into you and Daniel and LRA and trj and all the others like you then I have succeded in my mission. End of story just as simple as that. ”

Evidentally, no, it’s not quite that “simple”. Why?…because according to the religious doctrine that you’ve adopted and are attempting to promote as “Truth”, it was “Prophesied” that there would be skeptics, nonbelievers, backsliders, etc., etc.

If you take a minute to really think this notion through, you’ll see that if you and your Xian constituents succeed in your “mission” – that is, converting every human being to Christianity – well, then said “Prophecy” will have failed. I would think that even a Christian would have to admit that it doesn’t look very good when the supposed inerrant, unchanging “Word of God” has failed in its predicting of the future, yes? (not that that is the only failed “Prophecy”, or anything)

In any event, it would be in your best interest to not noodle with “God’s Plan”, in which case, you will want to leave a few of us here on U.F. “UN-converted”. Not that such a goal will be easy to achieve, by the looks of things ; )

I’m also a former believer, and in the waning twilight of my own personal god-delusion, I was reduced to argument #38.

Followed, of course, by a loss of my beliefs.

Now, this was brought up a few months ago by “bp”, but I feel the need to mention in, as I didn’t see anyone else do so.

E) It is not reasonable to suggest that 3 million people would all simultaneously choose to invent a highly complex and demanding law (just ask your local talmudic scholar) and then keep to that law for 3500 years. (especially one that contains within it self referential reminders every day, week, month and year)

The problem with this is that Talmudic scholars don’t just follow and study the law laid out in the Torah, but all the hundreds and thousands of subsequent laws created after that. Talmudic law is complex and was not all created at the same time. You have a base law, and then it’s expounded upon, and picked apart, and given loopholes and has loopholes closed.

Also, I don’t actually recall that the law WAS given to the entire nation. It was given to the Israelites by way of Moses and Aaron, who claimed to speak for god, and that’s a totally different animal.

I WANT TO SAY THAT ALLAH ALMIGHTY(GOD ALMIGHTY) EXIST IF NOT THEN WHO IS CONTROLLING THIS UNIVERSE ONLY ONE ALLAH ALMIGHTY.AND IT IS MENTION IN ALL RELEGIOUS BOOKS. IF THE PEOPLE TO WHOM THESE BOOKS R GIVEN FOR THEIR GUIDE IF THEY HAVE NOT MADE CHANGE IN THESE BOOKS OR REVELATIONS.
IF SOMEONE NOT AGREE THEN TELL ME CAN ANYONE SEE SUN NO HIS EYES WIIL BE NO MORE IF HE DO THAT.SO IF U CANNOT SEE THE CREATION OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY THEN HOW U CAN SEE ALLAH ALMIGHTY.HE IS ONE AND EVERYONE WILL SAY IT AT THE END OF LAST DAY.WHEN EVERYONE HAS TO GO TO ALLAH ALMIGHTY AND GIVE ANSWER TO THE DEEDS OR WORKS HE DO BD OR GOOD LUCK.ISLAM IS VERY GOOD RELEGION AND IF U WANT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE THEN FIRST MAKE RESEARCH ABOUT IT.U WILL KNOW THE RIGHT THING WHICH U DO NOT KNOW.

Is it not true that belief does not need a reason? One can belief in anything. I could belief I could fly, but there is no reason to proof it, just because I belief it… Hmm…Sounds like a Xian or Muslim to me…

Once upon a time I had a job on a residential psychiatry ward. After a while I realized that there was ot a lot of difference between the severely mentally ill and the typical religious fundamentalist nut case, except that the typical religious nut case was suffering from a set of shared delusions that had somehow become socially acceptable.

When you are aproached by a religious glassy eyed spluttering nut case waving his tracts about and trying to convince you that paying fealty to his priest keepers and sharing his xenu, cheesus, krizna, muhamid, moronie, yowie, moosus delusion is the only way to keep him and his wacked out fellows from beating upon you, don’t try to argue with them. What they need is lots of Thorazine and if that does not help them accept reality, they need electro shock treatments.

Religious people are mentally ill and are unable to accet reality or deal with the real world without their sustaning delusions.

Hetty-

I have never, in my whole life, felt more empty, inadequate, and inferior as I did when I was a christian. Since I left christianity, I have made my own journey. It has been difficult to be sure, but I am so glad to know that the small bits of wisdom I have collected along the way were well worth it because I actually did the intellectual work to earn them!

I can’t speak for Daniel or any others on this forum who left christianity, but I can say that I suspect that the anti-intellectual nature of the church, christianity, and blind belief in the “mysteries” of Jesus can’t be truly satisfying to any person who uses evidence and reason as a primary approach to evaluating what to believe (or not).

The bible says “love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and all of your MIND and all of your soul and all of your strength”– it is awfully hard to love the lord with your MIND when the evidence that the bible is a cobbled together piece of 2000 year old literature is sooooo overwhelming.

Any religion (christianity included) is socially constructed for the purpose of social control of the masses. If you want to participate in that, well fine, but don’t expect those of us who aren’t easily fooled to follow. There is soooo much knowledge in this world (namely scholarly knowledge) that has reason and evidence behind it. What have you got but a few flimsy promises and an evil OT god?

you are in my prayers…and when you have hard days you turn to the right thing-the right ONE….

So many have trouble without seeing what is the One to believe-that is why it goes on and on about not to have idols-He knew this was going to continue-without physical evidence of Him right here…there are so many historical proofs…if anyone fears to talk about a faith in this world it is about Jesus Christ-it is easy to talk about all the other cults and man made up ones-as for deep in all souls, we don’t double question them…so we aren’t intimidated if we are right with those.
When raising Lazarus from the dead-mind you yes over 2000 yrs ago and names recorded with witnesses. They weren’t in our time era of Showtime specials…they lived out real lives-like today is the last day-and He showed them this to be passed on in record-the Bible-for us. And He gave us the Holy Spirit to dwell in His presence until He comes back..and I pray you feel the Holy Spirit before He return…and don’t go thru tribulation..all the signs of coming of ending times are closer and closer…and that won’t be pleasant. Many blessings to you and your search for what is right to follow-Satan has a grip on you…for that I am so sorry-I have been there…but that all can be changed.
Pray you will find clarity in life…He still loves you. But blasphemy is one of the biggest sins.

In His Love,

Hetty

Hetty-

wow, that was truly a bunch of cobbled together, incoherent, sanctimonious crap (gee- kind of like the bible!)

Satan has a GRIP ON ME? Are you serious?

Well, then I give you this challenge:

Prove it. You give me ONE shred of VERIFIABLE evidence to ANY of your claims. JUST ONE. And QUOTING THE BIBLE DOESN’T COUNT!

The bible is about as coherent as any other mystical text, and the “history” (as you call it) contained within doesn’t prove diddly squat. There is NO archaeological evidence for any of it. No worldwide flood. No exodous of the israelites from egypt. Not even evidence of Jesus’ crucifixion by condemnation of Pontius Pilot (spelling?).

As I said, it has to be VERIFIABLE. It has to be TESTABLE and OBSERVABLE by multiple people, over time, who all draw the SAME conclusions.

Until you have that, you may as well tell me that the abominable snowman has a grip on me.

Sounds to me like you’re the one who needs to get a grip!

Amen dear brother in Christ..love Him…He loves us all so much! Walk by faith not by sight…
Hebrews 11:1-2
What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. God gave His approval to people in days of old because of their faith.

In His Grip,

Hetty

Mike-do you see the difference in response…when Christ is the center of ones life…we are reborn..and goal minded to be more like Christ…which is full of love, joy, peace, mercy, faith, grace, goodness, patience, gentleness-and self control…and you do a fabulous job..keep reading some of the slander in here…many have been overtaken in this cynical world…I would rather one day with Him..than 100 here on earth. Bless you!

In His Grip,

Hetty

My friend…do you see how much work up and anger you have..you can rip and tear on me all you want..I know the truth…you have been introduced…it is all your free will…but I sure know the difference in life-with and without Him. Like U2..many songs about Him..Lifehouse..same.

But many don’t see it..they view it in their cynical ways…why does anxiety increase along with depressioin each yr? More either atheist, no faith,nor practicing..or in a cult. Happiness is Your Choice. Given to you by God.
I can sit here and throw verses at you-websites etc…won’t do a thing unless God works on you and has a lot of trial in your life that opens your eyes…worth it if that happens.

Pray you have a restful night…

In His Love,

Hetty

I have the #1 selling book worlwide-with proven historical facts-the Bible…you have your own gut feelings due to despair, unlucky life, no satisfication, no love, whatever you dwell in…you have yourself and the ground to turn to…and both created by God-what gifts He gave you to dwell in your own stubborn issues-He would rather you say it is satan…but heck if it is your ownself thrilled to hate the thought of God loving you so much-ready to help your plans unfold-then He will shut you out one day…

think about it before he slams that door and you watch loved ones who do know Him and accept Him wave goodbye in ending days…or cry when you do die when day…

Life is too short…so much happier with the book of life…the book that tells all-that your own self indulged rules or for that matter-none at all…

I repeat my challenge:

Prove it. You give me ONE shred of VERIFIABLE evidence to ANY of your claims. JUST ONE. And QUOTING THE BIBLE DOESN’T COUNT!

Wow. You couldn’t make this stuff up.

In the end, it all comes down to a very personal choice: critical thinking or blind faith, and a very simple rule: keep church and state separate.

And always wear clean underwear, but that’s more of a guideline…

ps. My sources are scholarly sources.

OTHER works of MYTHOS:

the Qur’an, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Talmud, the Odes (in Confucianism), and, as I mentioned, The Homeric Epics.

Done and done.

So, you aren’t going to answer me? Interesting.

The same proof you have that Thor does not exist. I’m willing to bet you don’t think that’s a good enough reason to believe in Thor, right?

Thor rules hard. If JC had been packing Mjöllnir, he would have way better street cred.

Me too.

But can you say for sure that there IS life after death, or that christians will go to heaven and everyone else will go to hell? There’s no proof of that either, is there?

Michael, have you proven that God IS real? Isn’t the burden on you to prove the existence of something? For example, if I said that there is an invisible pink elephant in the clouds who reads my thoughts, can you prove that it’s not true? Shouldn’t the burden be on me to prove a fantastic statement like “God exists, God created me, God loves me, God sent his son to die for me, I’m going to live forever in heaven with God”, etc. Can you prove any of this at all? Do you personally know anyone who has died, gone to heaven, and come back to report to you? Without that proof, how can you be dogmatic as a christian? As an atheist, I am not dogmatic. I simply say that there is no proof of God, and that all the scientific evidence that i’m aware of tends to disprove the existence of the supernatural.

93. ARGUMENT FROM MYSTERIOUS USE OF PREPOSITIONS
(1) It is impossible to disprove God with your puny human intellect unless you are above God.
(2) Are you higher than God?
(3) I’ll take that puzzled look on your face as a no.
(4) Therefore, God (being the highest thing ever) exists.

32. ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
(1) God exists.
(2) I don’t give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

Are you really this clueless? I get that you are attempting sarcasm, but you pretty epically failed at it. Instead it comes across as sniveling.

“Then we could all be our own gods and try to take over the world. Especially all you smart guys. Wolter, LRA, Stavrogin.”

Huh? That comment makes no sense to me.

8. ARGUMENT FROM MIRACLES (I)
(1) My aunt had cancer.
(2) The doctors gave her all these horrible treatments.
(3) My aunt prayed to God and now she doesn’t have cancer.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

What really surprises me is how many people claim to have witnessed miracles that by some twisted logic proves that their particular god exists, and yet have not one shred of evidence to back their claims.

This is what I think about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing#Criticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Actually there’s one that they very surprisingly missed on the proof page:

ARGUMENT FROM RISK AVERSION
(1) Some people said I’d suffer for eternity if I don’t believe in God.
(2) I don’t like risks, no matter how minute.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

Ah – very clever reworking Pascal’s wager into a proof, good work!
The question for anyone taking the risk averse path is of course “which god are you gonna lay your bets on?”

429. ARGUMENT FROM OTHER PEOPLE’S REALITY
(1) I have experienced God.
(2) Other people have not.
(3) Poor people. There is something wrong with their perception of reality.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

29. ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS (I)
(1) Atheists are spiritually blind.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

60. ARGUMENT FROM INSECURITY
(1) We have gone to absolutely berserk lengths to establish that atheists are laughable morons.
(1.5) Actually, we did so in the hopes of curing our own insecurities about theism — but there’s no chance in hell we’ll ever admit that.
(2) Therefore, atheists are laughable morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

284. ARGUMENT FROM HAULING ASS
(1) [Theist creates message board account and logs in.]
(2) “GOD IS REEL AND ALL YOU HEATHEN ATHEIST INFEDILS WILL BERN IN HELL FORE-EVER MARK MY WERDS!!!!!!!!@#3FD”
(3) [Theist logs off and never returns.]
(4) Therefore, God exists.

Because he has a “religious” title (Bishop) you think that means He belongs to Christ? Is of the root? No, no…he is a man of THIS temporal world a mere religious man and thus see’s in the limited one plane only.

There is more…

> I was a sex addict.

If you were, then you still are. I also wonder: are you talking about nymphomania, or the regular human sexual appetite?

> I would rather do to the best of my ability what I think as a Christian is right and be wrong in the end than to know what I know and deny Him through life and then be right about His existance in the end.

There’s that risk aversion again.

> But if I am wrong I have lost nothing.

You have lost the following:
- an open mind: “I cannot as a Christian and being fairly knowledgeable of science and some of its properties accept anything Darwin has to say about evolution.”
- a healthy view of sexuality
- the freedom to question your core beliefs, and transcend them
- the freedom to live your life as YOU see fit, rather than under the dictate of another.
- 10% of your income

> They use really big fancy words to cover up their self imposed ignorance to the Truth. And all your arguments will fall on deaf ears.

15. ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE
(1) Okay, I don’t pretend to be as intelligent as you guys — you’re obviously very well read. But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist. I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you’ll just ask him into your life. “For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth.” John 3:16.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

> Now I suppose LRA, Wolter, Daniel or someother know it all is going to make up a few more arguments against Christianity and how stupid Christians are and laugh at us and make fun of God and Jesus, but you know what, it’s OK. Jesus tells us we will be persecuted for our faith so it’s all good.

120. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (I)
(1) Someone made fun of my faith.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

121. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
(1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
(2) I am an idiot.
(3) People often point that out.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

122. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (III)
(1) You atheists are mean!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

285. ARGUMENT FROM BAPTIST BOARD
(1) God calls us to be a peculiar people.
(2) Stop laughing, foul non-believer.
(3) In order to preserve our own particular peculiarity —
(4) Stop laughing, I said.
(5) We must be a people apart.
(6) This means not listening to anyone who believes differently than we do, because this would taint our peculiarity.
(7) If you do not stop laughing —
(8) (Oh, I have to do the end of the argument?)
(9) Therefore, God exists.
(9a) And God especially exists because non-believers are laughing at us, which means we’re persecuted, which means we’re special.
(10) Therefore, God exists.

Huh? How do you get from what Michael said to thinking he “can’t stand the truth” and “would probably do [his] best to get rid of me”?

Please point out anything in what he said that even remotely justifies that kind of response.

” @Michael, Hello. Aren’t we defensive?? I believe this is why so many Jesus loving Christians have been murdered over the centuries ”

mark: What purpose does it serve for your invisible sky daddy to have allowed all of those christians to be murdured in the first place.

Exactly why would your god who supposedly loves you (christians) allow you to be persecuted by non christians?

If Chrisitans are supposed to go out and spread the word, exactly why would god allow non believers (who wont go out and spread the word) to harm or murder christians?

You are getting Catholicism and Christianity confused. Also it was puritans who killed the witches. No Christian as far as I know of has ever killed anyone for their beliefs.

If you want to claim that Catholics and Puritans are not Christians (a position that would surprise both of those groups), you’re going to have to define exactly who does count as a Christian? Just you? Some sub-set of the people who attend your church? Members of other churches in the same denomination? How tiny, exactly, is Christianity?

I believe Barack Obama is not one.

Again, unless you’re going to provide a rigorous definition of who you accept as “Christian”, your belief about Obama is worthless. He is a Christian by any sane definition.

@Winterminute. Listen to his tone. He wants to reach out and hurt someone. Just ask him.

So, you can’t actually point to anything that would support your assertion that he’s violent?

I did listen to his tone, and I didn’t get anything like that out of it. Please point out the specific things that I’m missing.

Exactly!

There you have it – a variation of:

210. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION
(1) I couldn’t imagine not believing in God.
(2) Therefore, God exists

Personally, I think he’s an idiot too. If there’s one thing I can’t tolerate, it’s abject stupidity, and he had my hackles up from the start of his manifesto, beginning christianity is not a religion. It is a state of being.

‘Course, he’ll probably say I have violent tendencies too, based on what I’ve just said.

Don’t make him angry!

429. ARGUMENT FROM MIKE
(1) I will claim all sorts of weird spirtual stuff like christianity is not a religion and catholicism is not chritsianity …
(2) … and then shout at and abuse and mock anyone who tries to debate the fact
(3) Therefore, God exists.

Like He told Job, “Who are you to ask me why I did this thing. Were you there when I made the heavens. Were you there when I named all the stars. I made you.

In other words, “I’m bigger than you, now siddown and shaddup, and let me get off on this schadenfreude”.

@PKW – I am a former christian, now atheist. You asked why some people are so passionate about disproving god/religion. I can only speak for myself. It’s because belief in religion is dangerous. I won’t even go into the religious dogma that caused 9/11. I’m talking about christianity too. For example, if someone believes that the second coming of christ is iminent, they will not try to preserve our beautiful planet. What’s the point? Armagedon is on its way – god’s judgment and all that. This does not even touch on the destruction that religion causes – there is simply not room on this blog to go into it. I would encourage you to read Celia Murray Dunn – she goes into how religion can destroy people psychologically. Anyway, I hope you find your answers.

Mike,

It’s not that we’re silent, it’s that most people don’t read old threads.

Mike, I know you are trying to slip in unfounded conclusions to make yourself feel better, but please don’t insult our intelligence by expecting us to be so easily swayed by your tortured logic.

Sorry Mike, but a lot of us are done being shee-ple. We don’t want to be shep-herded.

Aw, JR thanks. I’m a woman. Also, I saw this guy wearing a shirt once. It had a Latin phrase on it that translated roughly to say this:

“If you can read this you are over-educated.”

Yup. That about sums me up!!!

;) he he

“Since you are so intellegent, then instead of me proving that God is real, Then you prove that He is not. You can’t.”

Fallacy of negative proof. There is no “proof” that could disprove(in an absolute sense) a “God”. Can a Christian disprove Poseidon? Allah?….how about Quetzacoatl? No, hence, you cannot “prove” a negative. This is why we rely on evidence, not “proof”, and why we non-theists ask for evidence from those making the claim in the affirmative…i.e..”Jesus is Lord!”, etc.

Gods are not disproven; Gods are UNproven.

it would also suggest that it’s evil to send non-believers to hell when God programed the ability in us to have faith or not to begin with.

How about you make the claim that hundreds of years ago God (or aliens if you like) came down and gave everyone recipes for muffins. That’s why we have so many muffins today. If no one can remember how muffins came about, it works.

An even more likely scenario is that some dude just made the whole thing up a few hundred years after anyone could prove otherwise.

actually, several Eastern religions are compatible. Almost every chinese citizen practices ancestor worship in addition to Buddhism or Christianity, for example. Doesn’t change the sentiment of your post, though

tldr

lollollollol

Copernicus used reason and logic, and maybe a smattering of intuition. He was a great guy but a scientist before a poet. Let’s not go crazy.

actually, being paralyzed by fear is also an adaptation. most predators won’t attack if they aren’t hungry or threatened, but some will attack if you run.

“There are 3 groups of religions”
Budhists? Zeus? Thor? Mithra? Ra?
If you mean religions believing in the Abrahamic god, how can you forget the muslims?
Are you implying that catholics and protestant are so much related than jews and catholics? You know, it seems me so and that would be a LIE. So, to be fair you should have write:

there are three groups of religions believeing in abrahamic god:
1.- Jews
2.- Catholics
3.- Christians

And then the christians divided themselves between

3.1- Catholics
3.2-
…
3.x-
(orthodoxes)
3.x+ Others (like the catars)

And then catholics splitted in many sects, some of them who believe in the authority of the pope and others who doesn’t (protestants)

My point: there are an awful lot of sects in the christianism, and in that “tree” of the evolution of christianity, catholics and protestants are very very close one to another, Mike

A little more…
“Atheism as far as I am concerned was made up by men who are afraid to dedicate themselves to anything”
Of course. And we are a bunch of inmoral people. Be real Mike!

“The people who practice it are wasting their time.”
We don’t practise “atheism”. It is NOT a religion. We are trying to do a better society. How is that wasting our time?

“Maybe they provide some kind of service to their given society and maybe they are here so people like myself will cement themselves further into their religion which has proven to be the case here.”
I agree. We are here because god did us, with the only purpose to prove your faith. You are the center of the Creation, Mike.
On the other hand, maybe Satan did us to get you out of the truth way to heaven, lol.
A secret: you are like Job, in the middle of a bet between God and Satan. So if God kills your family don’t worry because he will gave you another one if you pass his exam. That crazy tale is on the bible…

“So maybe you guys aren’t a waste”
Thanks. I was beginning to think that my life had no sense, but if you says so I’m really relieved

“I would rather believe in multiple gods than to be a self proclaimed atheist.”
A “self-proclaimed” atheist? So you are a self-proclaimed chrsitian, not a real one. I think you should believe in multiple gods, as each of them is equally probable. I suggest you begin with the FSM, who is the truly one. And the PIU next to it. What about worshipping the sun? I could suggest too that you should exclude the abrahamic ones, because they exclude the others

“Any way when I say Christianity is not a religion I simply mean that it is a personal relationship with my Savior and not any religion in particular”
So you have an imaginary friend? Cute!
(btw, I know that each christian has his own god. How is that coherent is my question)

What exactly is a deist? And exactly which atheist book did you draw this conclusion from? The whole reason the colonies were even founded was for freedom of religion. Are you going to tell me that was wrong too?

Evil! Eeeeeeeeeevil!

Burn the witch!
Punish the blasphemer!
Kill the infidel!
Subjugate the savages!

In the name of God!

No comment.

“If He did one thing for you idiots He would have to do them for all you idiots.”

And why would this be a problem for an all powerful god? I mean, he gave empirical evidence to his enemies (Satan and the fallen angels), why not to us? Sorry, but I think we deserve it a bit more than Satan and the demons. Don’t you?

only when what you say has no bearing on the topic at hand. Grow up.

What about them? You can prosper and suffer in more ways than one. You can be rich(prosper) and lose a child(suffer). Or you can have cancer (suffer) and have a place in heaven (prosper).

Back to satan and his demons. Without God we are just as bound for hell as they are. We deeserve nothing more.

Stupid gremlins!

Mike: “[if you were 'God']Would you waste all of your time proving yourself to people bound for hell anyway?”

What is “time” to a supposed timeless being?

And “bound for hell anyway”? Lol. So much for that “free will” sh*t, huh?

Deist:

http://www.deism.com/

Well in light of that fact what proof is it would you like to see? You can’t see the wind but you feel it. What “empirical evidence” is there that would make you believe that there is a power higher than your egotistical self. Fallacy of negative proof, ha! That sounds smart. I’ll bet you patted yourself on the back after that.

Hey Roger, nice to hear from another non-believer. I don’t have empirical evidence. And what?? I don’t need it. I have faith. But what would you like to see? I’ll work on it.

> Your human definition and Gods definition of evil are not the same.

Indeed. Pretty much all of the gods’ definitions of evil are the same: Do as I say or else you are evil.
And so, Mike, you are evil. For you have rebelled against the wishes of Allah, and the wishes of Osiris and a host of other gods for that matter.

> God wanting to eradicate and wipe out a bunch of non believing atheist scum, however is cleansing the land.

Wow, I certainly wouldn’t want you in charge.

> He has given a people every possible chance at redemption.

Really… So how do you give an infant a chance at redemption, when it is unable to talk or reason?
By what measure do you deem all animals in an area beyond redemption?

> My God is not evil.

Every other god would disagree. And so would I.

There’s one flaw in your allegory, Mike:

Money is real, and easily proven. Your god is with near certainty not real, and there is no plausible evidence of his “money”.

Now I could just as easily start handing out miracle cures, and even show people how to make it themselves, on condition that they tell others about me and the cure. And some people will believe me, and take what I say at face value, because they are stupid. What’s more, they will start to believe that my miracle brew cured their ailments (due to the placebo effect).

As more and more people come to believe, others who would normally not believe become convinced. After all, if so many others believe it, it must be true!

Now I am a charlatan, who is giving them a vile mix of yak piss and snake oil, and they are gladly accepting this concoction. What’s more, they are so convinced of the truthfulness of my claims that they are willing to punish those who disparage me, even going to the lengths of torture or murder.

So what has been accomplished here? Just another example of human folly.

The money given by this man was meant to show pure fact something tangible during this mans existence. Nothing more. His death was brought on by those who did not agree with him. So those around him carried on. And so on thru the ages. Martin Luther King will be discussed thru the ages as well. Nobody is going to die for him. Why will they die for Jesus?? MLK brought a message of peace and hope. Jesus a message of life ever after. With guys like you who are no where near the likes of MLK or Jesus you just take advantage of the human condition. The type jesus warned His disciples against.

Funny, because when I read the old testament and the new testament, I could swear that god had a personality transplant in between…

God wasn’t punishing the children. Yes He had them killed but at the fallacies of their parents.

As usual the fundamentalist mind can excuse the inexcusable and make a virtue out of cruelty.

You justify actions which you would otherwise gladly emphasize as examples of human evil. That’s an incredible double standard.

The problem, Mike, is that people with your fucked up mindset seek positions of power, and then use that power to further the goals of their religion. And if left to fester for long enough, they grow into an inquisition, or a witch trial, or a crusade, or worse.

Wolter wolter wolter, 1st of all your cursing is not necessary. If you continue in this direspectful tone you will force me to discontinue our debate until such a time that you can carry on in a mature manner. Honestly, I thought we were past such as that. Just because you are Godless doesn’t mean you have to be uncouth. Secondly, I do not seek any such power. I will leave that to the intellectuals like yourself. My mission isn’t one of self but one for all who seek the truth. You sound like you have me figured out, but I assure you that you are far from it. If I keep one wandering lost child of God from turning into you and Daniel and LRA and trj and all the others like you then I have succeded in my mission. End of story just as simple as that. That sir is my only goal. Sounds real scary doesn’t it? One soul. No witch trials ,inquisitions or crusades here. Just to save one lost soul from quitting and becoming you.

“There’s an elephant in the room.”

“Oh him? Yeah, I suppose so.”

“Why is there an elephant in the room?”

“Who cares, it’s a small thing. Pay it no mind.”

Wolter I told you once already, He had the children killed along with the women and old people because they were beyond redemption. Did you miss my story about Lot and sodom and gammorrah? The children along with their mommies and daddies and pigs and goats and whatever else lived there had to die. He gave them every chance. Lot could not find one among them, no not one who was saved. The reasoning that was given was because evil(mommy and daddy) begets evil(child) The children were destined to grow up just like their parents. God was preventing future interaction between His people and the evil ones who are on this earth. Did you catch that? Future I said. The children were the future of evil. Or eeeeeevil as you put it. I told you about reading the bible without proper guidence. It will do you more harm than good. James 22:1 says “Do not merely listen to the word and so decieve youselves. Do what it says.” In non Christian terms that means don’t just read the bible and call yourself educated. Go out and prove it. All you’re proving to me is that you know how to counter argue every little point I make.

ok sure ????????

E, I am still lost. I’ve never been a genious so you will have to speak to me more slowly.

As goes the atheist motto. I could make a fortune selling the t-shirts.

Isn’t what you just wrote a bit of boastfulness? And aren’t Christians supposed to avoid boasting?

And if you’re being taken advantage of, I’d say it’s not necessarily because of “empathy.” Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me, and so forth.

“What, the only difference other than going from a vengeful, angry god to a benevolent, kind god, you mean? ”

Did God really mellow out? I mean, first off there’s the whole bit about requiring the humiliation, torture and death of his son before he could bring himself to forgive the human race for its ritual infractions.

Then there’s the whole “apocalypse” thing, where Revelations predicts horror, war, oppression and genocide to come. All part of God’s plan, apparently.

And there are the incidental slaying here and there, like the case of Ananias and Sapphira, where God kills two people for failing to pay their taxes.

Sometimes it seems that God didn’t really change, just that he got a new PR agent.

trj can I call you terj for short? Listen, I never said it was great. My heart aches for you people. I am to love the sinner and hate the sin. That is the side I am on and why I find it hard to leave this site, there are so many like yourself who are lost. I wish you could all see how wrong you all are. And truly I say that out of love and not hate. I don’t want to see you die without God in your life. My opinions just happen to go in line with the bible. I can’t say that I totally agree with everything or understand but I am not turning my back on Him just because of that. I never left my earthly mom and dad because they did things that were beyond my comprehension. I don’t know how you could do it.

Edit, above: Should have been “difficult to achieve”, on the last line.

(an edit feature would be outstanding!)

Listen Boomer, God sent all His people out into the highways and hedges to win souls to Christ. Tat is the great commission. Your sarcasm has not fallen on deaf ears. There are people who are not going to be saved but not for lack of people like myself trying. You guys continue to make your stand and I know what it is. I will make my stand and we will let all who are “on the border” decide. I am doing my job, you guys are doing yours. This prophecy that you speak of is not going to come to fruition. Satan needs some warriors too.

> 1st of all your cursing is not necessary.

What? Saying “fucked up”? That’s not cursing; it’s commentary.

> If you continue in this direspectful tone you will force me to discontinue our debate until such a time that you can carry on in a mature manner.

That’s rich, considering your previous tirades.

> Just because you are Godless doesn’t mean you have to be uncouth.

Ooh! the backhanded insult! I love it!

> Secondly, I do not seek any such power.

Yes, I’m sorry, that came out wrong. I didn’t mean that YOU would seek power. I was referring to those who share your fucked up mindset AND seek powerful positions to exercise that mindset, such as James Dobson and George Bush.

> That sir is my only goal. Sounds real scary doesn’t it?

Not really. You’re only going to get the stupid ones.
And hey, if I manage to turn a borderline person away from the clutches of that evil religion, I’d consider my time well spent.

“If you continue in this direspectful tone you will force me to discontinue our debate until such a time that you can carry on in a mature manner.”

Well, that would be a blow to the culture.

“My God can do anything. ”

Except for, in your own words, redeeming people.

LRA, while your credentials are extraordinary, your beliefs are what is important. I have not read the bible cover to cover, I have not graduated from any kind of college much less gone to college. So what? That makes you wiser than me? Your intellect has made you blind. You hide your fears just like all the other guys behind the creds you think justify your position. Here is quote from James:” Do not merely LISTEN to the Word and so decieve yourselves. DO WHAT IT SAYS. ” Just like I told Wolly, you have to do more than just read. You have to walk with Him. If yous study in a worldly manner you are only going to comprehend what is worldly. Now if you study with Gods guidence and pray for comprehension and His wisdom then you will open your eyes to what the bible is trying to say.

You ask if LRA with her life, her experience with religion, and her education is wiser than you.

I’m not trying to be inflammatory, but neither do I want to be politically correct, so my answer to that would be: Yes, all things equal, I’d say the chance is for LRA being the wisest. This is an observation based on simple statistics.

Somehow you want her intellect to work against her, which is a silly (not to mention very convenient) argument that never fails to amaze me.

LRA studied the Bible, intensively it seems, but in the end she discarded it. Of course, you’ll never accept her conclusion. She must have overlooked something. Maybe she’s blinded by her own intellect, yada yada. Because it is unthinkable that you yourself might be wrong.

If we admit to being disciples for Satan will that stop you from proselytizing to us?

If you continue down this path you are. As a matter of fact Satan loves you guys.

> Have you ever aked Jesus to come into your life? Honestly?

My guess is that his answer would be similar to your answer to: “Have you ever prayed to Allah and asked Him to show you the way of truth? Honestly?”

Maybe not “most” but certainly “many”.

Heh, might not want to be so quick to agree, the first-greatest was not existing at all :P

Poor Rodney, I forgot where I was for a sec. Yep you fooled me. Ha ha. But the first was convincing Eve to sin against God.

Well, Mike, if you want to believe in a pretend boogey monster, then go ahead. It’s real hard to do any kind of convincing when a spiritual entity fails to materialize. If satan did a great job of convincing me he isn’t real, then so did god.

I hope there’s a god, but I’m not going to hold my breath, and I’m sure as heck not going to follow your vile religion blindly.

Wolter, you are starting to sound frustrated. Frutration leads to childish tirades. You sound like a cursing blathering fool. This is my last warning.

While all of that sounds barbaric, it does to me too, it was necessary for Gods movement to bring Jesus into the world.
You really give me a headache.

you forgot that sound when you give someone a raspberry. What are you 6?

No, he’s got too much of an emotional investment in his belief to be dissuaded so easily.
Unfortunately, it also produces a reason-proof barrier.

You guys are all honorable for standing up with LRA. But she still didn’t answer my question.
“Did you ask Jesus to come into your life?”
@Rodney, If you aked Him into your life, then the Holy Spirit is still inside you. You can’t unsave yourself no matter how smart you think you are. Or where you studied, traveled, helped, or how much time and effort you put into Daniels Church of born again disbelievers. You can’t just wake-up and say “ooh, I think I’ll turn back to the lost world today cause God didn’t show up and do what I asked Him to.” It doesn’t work like that. God loves you, and once you are saved then you are His.

Oh and Mike, you still haven’t answered my question.

“Have you prayed to Allah and asked Him to show you the way of truth?”

Sunny, He only redeems those who ask.

that actually goes both ways…

Mike-

Science is a very revealing practice. I’m glad to be a scientist. It makes me happy to discover new things. Our world is an amazing place, creator or no creator.

As a person of science (molecular biology and neuroscience, specifically) I have found joy and happiness. I also understand better now that things like love are controlled by hormones and neurotransmitters. But love still feels great!

I don’t mind the world being demystified. I also know now that the struggle to be ideal (Jesus-like, or perfect, or whatever you want to call it) is a total waste of time. I laugh at my mistakes now (and learn from them) instead of fearing them.

I have freedom and confidence now that Christianity took away from me.

My mission isn’t one of self but one for all who seek the truth. … If I keep one wandering lost child of God from turning into you and Daniel and LRA and trj and all the others like you then I have succeded in my mission. End of story just as simple as that. That sir is my only goal.

If that’s not proselytizing, I don’t know what is. Don’t be dishonest, Mike. It doesn’t befit a man on a mission.

“Sunny, He only redeems those who ask.”

So this god fella can only do the things you say he can do. That’s convenient. Maybe I should make up one of these gods like you did and see if I can get people to worship and give me money.

No, it’s easier to argue against hatred than reason.