Hundreds of proofs of God's existence

I love the list of hundreds of proofs of God’s existence. There are a ton there, so here are some of my favorites:

10. MORAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) In my younger days I was a cursing, drinking, smoking, gambling, child-molesting, thieving, murdering, bed-wetting bastard.
(2) That all changed once I became religious.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

14. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
(1) Look, there’s really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists — it’s too complicated for you to understand.  God exists whether you like it or not.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

15. ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE
(1) Okay, I don’t pretend to be as intelligent as you guys — you’re obviously very well read.  But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist.  I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you’ll just ask him into your life.  “For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth.” John 3:16.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

17. ARGUMENT FROM INTIMIDATION
(1) See this bonfire?
(2) Therefore, God exists.
[That sums up medieval Christianity pretty well.]

25. ARGUMENT FROM INTERNET AUTHORITY
(1) There is a website that successfully argues for the existence of God.
(2) Here is the URL.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

36. ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPLETE DEVASTATION
(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

38. ARGUMENT FROM SHEER WILL
(1) I DO believe in God!  I DO believe in God!  I do I do I do I DO believe in God!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

39.  ARGUMENT FROM NONBELIEF
(1) The majority of the world’s population are nonbelievers in Christianity.
(2) This is just what Satan intended.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

51. ARGUMENT FROM INFINITE REGRESS, a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Ask Atheists what caused the Big Bang.
(2) Regardless of their answer, ask how they know this.
(3) Continue process until the Atheist admits he doesn’t know the answer to one of your questions.
(4) You win!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

79. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL SANITY
(1) I’ve had religious experiences that can’t be explained unless I’m insane or God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

92. ARGUMENT FROM FORTUITOUS COINCIDENCE
(1) What are the odds of that happening?
(2) Pretty long, I’ll bet.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

98. ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN (II), a.k.a. GOD OF THE GAPS
(1) Isn’t X amazing!
(2) I don’t understand how X could be, without something else (that I don’t really understand either) making or doing X.
(3) This something else must be God because I can’t come up with a better explanation.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

100. ARGUMENT FROM PRAYER
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist makes counterarguments.]
(3) You have my prayers.

107. ARGUMENT FROM MARTYRDOM
(1) The apostles would not have died for something they knew wasn’t true.
(2) Atheist gives examples of martyrs outside Christendom.
(3) Obviously those examples were fooled by Satan.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

109. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF DISPROOF
(1) You can’t prove God doesn’t exist!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

121. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
(1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
(2) I am an idiot.
(3) People often point that out.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

138. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (I)
(1) I believe that if God exists, there will be no evidence for his existence.
(2) There is no evidence for the existence of God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

139. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (II)
(1) God, if you exist, please give me absolutely no sign.
(2)
(3) Therefore, God exists.

165. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
(1) That’s really cool.
(2) God must have done that.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

175. ARGUMENT FROM STAR TREK
(1) You will be assimilated.
(2) All your salvations [are] belong to us.
(3) Resistance is futile.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

210. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION
(1) I couldn’t imagine not believing in God.
(2) Therefore, God exists

215. ARGUMENT FROM COUNTERFACTUAL EVIDENCE
(1) You claim the evidence for Jesus’ divinity is non-existent.
(2) But if there were lots of evidence, you would still not be convinced.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

228. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
(1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
(2) Therefore the Bible is true.
(3) The Bible says God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exist.

266. ARGUMENT FROM YOUTH GROUP MINISTER
(1) God is awesome!
(2) Like, totally, dude!
(3) Therefore, God, like, exists and stuff.

276. ARGUMENT FROM FAITH IN THE OBVIOUS
(1) You have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, don’t you?
(2) See!  Atheists have faith too!
(3) Just like I have faith in Jesus.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

 

  • bpdlr

    I think argument 79 is a bit harsh – there’s no need to belittle the religious just because of their ignorance. Some of my closest family, and also some of the most convincing Christians I’ve met, have attributed their faith to a personal experience – without it, they would probably have left the church.

    I don’t think they are insane, I think they just aren’t aware of how powerful the mind can be at convincing us of something that isn’t there. Dawkins touches on this in “The God Delusion”, giving examples of optical and audible illusions (p.112 in my edition).

    Another eye-opener for me was watching Derren Brown. His tricks are simply astounding, and are all the proof you can ever need that the brain is capable of being soundly fooled. Search for his material on YouTube – the “Messiah” series is often quoted, but also see the episode where he uses a video game to hypnotise someone, and then physically moves them to a warehouse where he has re-created the world of the game (I think it’s labelled “zombie”).

    I warn you though, he doesn’t seem to mind his material being on the web for free, so there is a lot, and it is extremely addictive stuff!

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    Yes, it’s a bit harsh, but I took it to mean that some people really think that — “either I’m crazy because God spoke to me, or he exists” — and it’s settled for them. But of course I don’t think most believers are crazy. I used to be one, and I don’t think I was crazy.

    But if I heard voices in my head, I would think I was crazy.

  • Chayanov

    I think #210 actually explains all religious belief.

  • http://www.wazzasworthlesswitterings.blogspot.com wazza

    Indeed, Chayanov.

    Once you’ve been in this game (of debating creationists and other such religious extremists, not so much to deconvert them as to make sure there IS debate and not just the appearance of a consensus) for a while, you realise that the theists don’t believe atheism exists. They think we’ve just chosen to worship something else as our god. And if you can convince them that we really don’t worship anything, they assume that therefore we have no morality.

    It really is most vexing.

    • David

      How about we try it the other way. Does this list of arguements make more sense to everyone?

      10. MORAL ARGUMENT (II)
      (1) In my younger days I was a cursing, drinking, smoking, gambling, child-molesting, thieving, murdering, bed-wetting bastard.
      (2) I never changed
      (3) Therefore, God does not exists.
      14. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
      (1) Look, there’s really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid theist — it’s too complicated for you to understand. I have PHD in Science. I’ve met some stupid believers in my life so they all must be stupid. You don’t understand the laws of physics, God does not exists.
      (2) Therefore, God does not exists.
      ARGUMENT FROM EXPEREINCE
      (1) I’ve never met God. The world revolves around me. So God must not be real.
      (2) Therefore, God exists.
      25. ARGUMENT FROM INTERNET AUTHORITY
      (1) There is a website that successfully argues that God does not existence.
      (2) Here is the URL.
      (3) Therefore, God does not exists.
      ARGUMENT FROM NO BIAS
      1) I do not care whether you believe or not. I’m not trying to convince you not to believe. I just think all people who believe are a drain on society and uneducated. So I’ll spend my time trying to convince you not to believe. But really I have no motive or bias in this. I just think you are stupid if you do.
      2) Therefore, God does not exist.
      109. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF DISPROOF
      (1) You can’t prove to me that God does exist!
      (2) Therefore, God does exists.
      109b Argument from lack of need to Argue
      1) I do not have to prove to you that God does not exist, because I do not believe in God. However I do believe that God does not exist. After all and atheist is different from an agnostic. We atheist know there is no God.
      2) Therefore God does not Exist.
      121. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
      (1) We atheist are a minority
      (2) All Minorities must be given special treatment because we’ve been persecuted too long.
      (3) Therefore, God does not exists.

      210. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION
      (1) I couldn’t imagine believing in something as stupid as God.
      (2) Therefore, God does not exists

      • Duh

        Eh… 109 is a successful argument. If you have no proof of something, it does not exist until proven otherwise.

        You are unsuccessful at the game of “thinking” if you do not understand that the lack of a belief is not a belief in and of itself (i.e. not-collecting-stamp hobby, Off is my favorite TV Channel, empty parking space is a type of car, etc.)

        • Elemenope

          Yeah…that’s not exactly accurate. It is true that the vast number of negative beliefs are dispositional (they don’t come up explicitly that often), they are nonetheless directly entailed by positive beliefs. To wit, if you believe something specific about reality, you also necessarily believe that contrary or competitive explanations are excluded. If you believe the earth is a spheroid, you necessarily believe the earth is not flat or toroidal or hyperbolic. Sometimes, especially in situations of epistemological uncertainty or in regards to negative beliefs that have profound systemic consequences, it is better to treat an assertion of that negative belief similar to the way that a positive belief would normally be treated.

          I would certainly argue that the assertion of the nonexistence of an entity like a deity would qualify.

          • Kelly

            “you necessarily believe the earth is not flat or toroidal or hyperbolic.”

            No, that is just bad grammar. You would say one does *not* believe that the Earth is flat or toroidal or hyperbolic.

            Negative belief? That does not even make sense. How can you believe in not something? Where do you begin? You either believe something or you do not.

            • Elemenope

              No, that is just bad grammar. You would say one does *not* believe that the Earth is flat or toroidal or hyperbolic.

              It is grammatically sound. “The Earth is not flat.” Perfectly reasonable sentence.

              Negative belief? That does not even make sense. How can you believe in not something? Where do you begin? You either believe something or you do not.

              This ignores the actual process by which human beliefs become occurrent. Expressions of belief come into being as a reaction to two necessary prerequisites: cognizance of a concept, and situation that utilizes the concept. Concepts can easily be expressed through negation: “It is not raining”, “I am not hungry”, “God does not exist”. Obviously, they can also be expressed as a positive assertion: “It is raining”, “I am hungry”, “God exists”.

              Often times, what a person makes occurrent is the negation, because situationally it is all that matters. If a person is determining whether to wear a rain coat, the belief structure of the conclusion not to need a rain coat is “it is not raining”; the positive qualities that may obtain in its place are irrelevant, e.g. “it is sunny”, “it is overcast”, “it is snowing”, “it is windy”; none of these positive assertions matter. Only the negative assertion “it is not raining”. It would be a strange person indeed that went through all the positive possibilities and waited to affirm one that contradicts the possibility of rain before concluding “I do not need a rain coat”. That’s not how people’s minds generally work.

              How we construct beliefs semantically and apply them situationally matters just as much as–in my opinion, more than–the conceptual content, because it indicates the essential orientation of the person holding the belief towards the concept. Faced by a claim of a possibly real set of which we can know nothing, assertions of the form “there are no members of that set” are just as weighty and in need of justification as “there are members of that set”. The person asserting further “[entity X] is a member of that set” face additional burdens, and so the situation between theists and atheists is still asymmetrical. Just not as much as we atheists like to believe.

            • Nox

              There actually is a difference between “not believing X” and “believing X is not true”.

            • Francesc

              Uh… i believe you can’t win an argument against Elemenope.

      • Kelly

        No, this list of arguments makes absolutely no sense at all.

        Especially 109. Since you cannot prove God exists, he exists?

        Let’s face it, you do not know if God/s exists. No one does. It is unknowable because it is not provable. And you certainly cannot disprove something that cannot be proven. Where would you even begin?

        • Francesc

          “And you certainly cannot disprove something that cannot be proven”
          Of course you can. Science works that way, disproving things that cannot be proven. The problem with magic, and the reason it is unknowable, is because it can’t be disproved.

        • trj

          you certainly cannot disprove something that cannot be proven.

          .

          That is not a general rule. For example, creationists can’t prove the biblical Flood occured, but science can prove that it didn’t (and by “prove” I mean “evidentially support within any reasonable doubt”). So it is proof by disproof.

          Granted, this example doesn’t automatically apply to God as a general concept. If you define God in sufficiently vague terms, science can’t disprove his existence. However, once you start attributing certain properties and behaviors to God, science may be able to test these against what we actually observe. So God can’t be disproved in general, but we can prove by disproof that certain interpretations of God are simply false (eg. there was no god that created humans fully formed).

  • http://mypartofcolorado.blogspot.com/ paul merrill

    Sounds like you have been hurt really badly by the church or some people within it.

    I am sorry.

    • Michael R

      Yet another absurd response to Atheism. “You don’t believe in X, therefore something terrible must have happened to you to make you resentful. Really you DO believe, but you won’t admit it because, you’re spiteful”. This is an immature tactic designed to marginalize your belief simply because, it stands in opposition to his. Pathetic and typical.

    • Joshua

      oh yeah…that must be it…listen dude, my life is perfect…i often brag about this…i am an atheist…its not that something bad happened to us. its that we opened our eyes and went “Hm…maybe there isn’t a giant invisible floating man in the sky…” there is no evidence to support the bible, and therefore no reason to believe it. if i told u that the events in The Lord of the Rings actually took place, would you believe it? i’d have just as much evidence as the churches. and don’t say, “that’s different! everything in those books are impossible!”…of course…it’s all impossible…just like healing the blind and cripples…and walking on water…all impossible, i agree

      • http://notsodailyfrench.com Briega

        Do you mean that The Lord of the Rings is not a true story? But it is written. It is a book. Therefore, it is true.

  • Raphael

    paul merrill

    I don’t know about him, but you don’t need to have been hurt by the church or people within it to see how much these arguments are stupids and funny.

    Just look:

    228. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
    (1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
    (2) Therefore the Bible is true.
    (3) The Bible says God exists.
    (4) Therefore, God exist.

    If this kind of cyclical argument doesn’t sound weird for you, I say sorry for you.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Paul: I haven’t been hurt, but thanks anyway. I think I would have found many of these funny even as a Christian. As I’ve said before, most of my friends are Christians and I was one for a long time, so I don’t harbor some kind of hatred or anger towards God or Christianity.

    I’m sorry you have to explain things away like that.

  • Chayanov

    And there’s an example of #210 in action. “I can’t imagine that anyone could have decided on their own not to be religious. Therefore, something must have happened that hurt them.”

  • http://metroblog.blogspot.com Metro

    @Paul:
    By your logic, if everyone who was hurt in any way by religious faith quit then there would be fewer and fewer people going to church, no?

    Oh.

    Ah, never mind, eh?

  • caffeinebump

    My favourite from the list was #98, perfectly (and hilariously) illustrated by Kirk Cameron’s now-famous video about how the banana is an atheist’s worst nightmare.

    (here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akc5w_ZqByY&feature=related if you haven’t seen it)

  • http://coultart.com/trevor Trevor Coultart

    These are great! Thanks for picking out your favourites to condense the list down for us.

  • http://www.athinkingman.co.uk/ athinkingman

    Thanks for this. It really cheered me up. (Therefore god must exist afterall :-) )

  • ramblingsfromthezoo

    Some are funny and have in my experience really annoyed me, but the poking fun at them is not completely valid when you put there the “therefore”. Those are not in themselves the reasons God exists to them, those arguments there are simple ideas they use that help support their belief to the outer world or the public. When you include those therefores, it makes you or the original writer seem just like them: playing games of words just to mock the other party.

    The fact that there is little chance of God existing when you take into your universe of study an extensive collection of quick “christiany” inferences with possible logical troughs that seek to corroborate the existence of God to the public, does not prove this God doesn’t exist; just as those individual arguments taken as is or as presented there alone, do not necessarily prove that this specific God exists.

    The discussion itself is as cyclical as you blame these Christians to be. If that God—with virginal birth for its human form and all— exists—which you can’t know because you don’t prove it as much as simply put in doubt (which in itself is valid); that God then exists regardless of anything, regardless of therefores; and these Christians then get to be, in that case, right, most likely through faith and the sensitivity of many specific hints in their personal life that came together to corroborate to them belief as these hints actively made sense in the specifics of their personal experiences (regardless of culture and country) into the conception of the existence of that biblical God.

    If that God doesn’t exist, it only means that you, by chance—by taking an extensive but limited amount of data that didn’t so much prove against that existence, but as I said, put it in doubt to the beholder of that data—happened to be right. The facts you state simply say it is unlikely that God exists when considering a limited set of let us call them components of the seemingly infinite spectrum of reality (not that this isn’t valid, it is valid in that that is what is available to the public or to you, but without leave to lose perspective). So this limited amount of data in itself—that is, the data taken out of the spectrum of reality and examined on their own—simply tell you that if those data were the actual the universe, the possibility of God existing is in that case extremely low. Yet the totality of the spectrum seems impossible to gather in conscious and flawless human knowledge, so I guess it is expectable to make careful considerations using them like you try to make, but it is important to always keep them in this realistic perspective of what are.

    Now, I said up there “by chance” not to mock you down like some Christians do with an annoying simplistic response such as “atheists need a lot more faith than us to believe in evolution”. I used “by chance” because in the end, probability doesn’t matter: by chance either reality lands on the 0.000001 percent of the whole probability, or it by chance lands on any of the other hundred million 0.000001’s that make up the rest of the probability. So, in case my usage of “by chance” back there caused an emotional, aggressive, or mocking response in you as you read it, and in case this is now effectively justified for you, please go back to that paragraph with a freer mind

    Seriously though, do consider that though many of these people can only come up with the stupidest reasons to justify (rather than logically elaborate them with one or other simple therefore) and thus preach their belief, this belief of many of them, and maybe even of some of the most annoying and arguably close-minded Christians, might per chance (considering that we are taking a limited number of possibilities without considering the real spectrum of reality and so we can talk about probability; if that were the outcome or not, what is reality itself doesn’t take “per chances”) come from more than just silly one-sentence replies that they might be conformed to come up with; it might even come from a sort of connection with reality itself. One that you, in the case that the so called .000001 is true, didn’t or haven’t caught for some reason and that was, again, for some reason, caught by at least some of those others. This is to put things in perspective more than prove anything for or against Christianity.

  • ramblingsfromthezoo

    wow that was long

  • VorJack

    Confusing, too. Any chance you could distill it down?

    You seem to be saying that we do not comprehend the entire universe, and so we should recognize that there is a chance that God exists in some fashion that we do not understand. And that believers might possibly have hit upon at least some aspect of the truth in spite of themselves.

  • http://sftsexperience.blogspot.com Doug

    17. ARGUMENT FROM INTIMIDATION
    (1) See this bonfire?
    (2) Therefore, God exists.
    [That sums up medieval Christianity pretty well.]

    That was pretty funny, but -

    121. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
    (1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
    (2) I am an idiot.
    (3) People often point that out.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

    That made me snort soda out my nose.

  • http://www.sellingmyself428.blogspot.com Selling Myself

    I get it. I love this list. In retrospect (I say that a lot as an ex-er), these idiotic processes of eliminating doubts the fundie way were utilized by me at one point in time, but now I see them for what they are – a drastic attempt to prove the existence of someone/something you don’t see and to believe beyond belief that you will not burn forever in a fiery pit.

  • linneawrites

    Ooo… #79 [argument from personal sanity]. That does seem to apply. *wince*

  • Iain

    I think that dismissing arguments such as the ontological argument, cosmological argument, evolution etc out of hand is the act of a fundementalist: and fundementalists give everyone a bad name, regardless of their convictions.

    Absolute belief, one way or another, is indicitive of a weak mind.

    • Michael R

      This is yet another common logical fallacy theists love, and it illustrates very clearly that lain has no idea what an Atheist is. The ontological and cosmological arguments have been thoroughly addressed elsewhere, evolution is both a theory and a fact, and it hardly indicates a “weak mind” to accept the world as it is, based on what we can reasonably know at this time. IF there ever is a shred of evidence to support the existence of a god, you’ll see that Atheists will be the least likely people to deny it. It’s much more likely that, given any evidence of any god, the naysayers will be religious people who just don’t like what the evidence shows. Much like…now.

    • staticXcharacter

      Using the word indictive, which is not actually a word at all, is indicative of a weak mind.

  • Anne

    Iain,
    The ontological and cosmological arguments have been refuted elsewhere. Atheists don’t dismiss them out of hand. The ontological argument is probably one of the dumbest arguments ever made for the existence of God or anything else, BTW.

    http://strips.bitstrips.com/b1c739db271a74762795497e7321d9f4.png

    Also if you suggest that atheists have absolute belief, you’re grossly mistaken. What most of us have is a high degree of certainty based on evidence. However, if any evidence were ever presented to cause us to reassess our conclusions, virtually any atheist I know would do so. I know it’s hard for many believers to understand but many of us left religion very reluctantly.

    • exrelayman

      Thanks Anne – that was wonderful (as was the OP).

  • Ethan

    @6 Raphael

    > paul merrill

    > …

    > Just look:

    > 228. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
    > (1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
    > (2) Therefore the Bible is true.
    > (3) The Bible says God exists.
    > (4) Therefore, God exist.

    > …

    Where in the Holy Bible can items #1 & #2 above be found?

  • Rogez

    These arguments are great, I love the way you are not spiteful. You just simplify the arguments to their absurd level. Bravo!

  • bombasticjones

    The vast majority of the strange things that are pointed to here and other places in this blog originate from the Old Testament. It was written for the ancient people, who did not have the advantage of perspective that we have today. Thus the supernatural events described there. All of these stories had a purpose: to entrench a set of moral values into a culture. It’s similar to Greek mythology in that respect.

    Most of the complaints I see here and other places are not against the institution of Christianity or it’s ideas, but against the Church and it’s lack of communication skills.

    Jesus says a lot of things about the way that you should act, but the entire teachings of the church can be boiled down to this:

    Assumption 1: God exists, and resides in heaven
    Assumption 2: Man is incapable of entering heaven alone.

    Therefore, God sent his son, Jesus, to die for Man, to allow him to enter heaven.
    (I’m sure you already know all this, Daniel.)

    The entire idea of Christianity is having the humility to believe that you are incapable of achieving paradise after death alone, and accept the help of a greater being. All the other stuff is icing on the cake.

    I’m not fooling myself into thinking that this will change any of your minds, but I just thought that a concisely worded explanation of the beliefs of Christianity would be helpful for anyone reading this that maybe doesn’t quite understand. I’ve described my rationale for believing this somewhere else on this blog.

    Cheers!
    Eric

    • Michael R

      You’re cherry-picking. “I like what the NT says better than what the OT says, so the NT must be the REAL message. Ignore the OT”. This is nonsense. You’re denying that your god had the ability to write a document that would stand the test of time. Not much of a god then, is he? If the OT was written for ancient people, as you posit, then why didn’t God just say so? “Hey, this is for you ninnies now. I’ll be back later with the new message for future generations, when they have computers and stuff. I’ll explain later.”
      Since your supposedly sacred book is chock full of huge contradictions, you have to explain away everything that creates an obstacle in one way or another, otherwise it just looks like you’re full of poo. Well, this type of argument doesn’t change the perception.

  • http://larianlequella.com Larian LeQuella

    @Ethan,

    Well, there is NOTHING to actually support the bible itself, so the only thing that supports the bible is the bible itself.

    - No evidence of a global flood.
    - No evidence of jews held as slaves by Egyptians for 400 years.
    - No evidence that there was a garden of eden.
    - etc.
    - etc.
    - etc.

    If you want to look for something outside the bible to support it, you won’t find it. Therefore, the only item that people have to support the bible, is the bible itself. If that sounds circular and crazy; well, that’s because it IS!

    • staticXcharacter

      Actually, the Jews were the Eqyptian’s slaves (or inferiors, if you will) for quite a long time. That part is based in fact.

  • http://www.jorgebucaran.com Jorge Bucaran

    I totally like 266 and stuff and stuff… ;)

    • scott scrawny

      did you take that from MST 3000 episode 1012? coz if you did, that is so cool…well, it’s cool anyway.

  • http://proudkikuyuwoman.blogspot.com PKW

    For some reason I like coming to this blog b/c I find some of the things funny, even the stuff that some Christians do.

    However, I don’t get this blog’s dedication to the opposition of the existence of God, and Christianity in particular. In my opinion, and God forgive me if I’m wrong, God does not exist only in the confines of Christianity and Judaism, the main religions (Old and New testaments) that particularly stand out here.

    Most atheists and humanists I’ve come across in real life or through literature/blogs have been the nicest, non-judgmental people who embrace everybody regardless of their their differences. What I’ve never quite understood is why that acceptance is never extended to include people’s beliefs in the existence of God and their experiences with God (for those who find ‘Him’ offensive)? How is it possible to believe that all we need is one another, yet dedicate a sizable chunk of time to debunking the lifestyle of choice to billions of people based on personal choice?

    • Michael R

      There are a lot of good reasons why Atheists like to come together and talk about their experiences. This issue has been addressed exhaustively on many atheist blogs. If you like to pop in on them occasionally, I’m surprised you haven’t seen any of them.
      For you it may be “personal choice”, but there’s a large contingent of religious people in this country lobbying daily to force everyone to live by their rules, like it or not. So, I object strongly to your assertion that we’re somehow hostile toward people exercising their personal choices. Atheists are all for the preservation of constitutional rights to free speech, religion, etc. Perhaps you should ask the fundies why they can’t just practice their beliefs without trying to stuff it down everyone else’s throat.

      • jeckyl8

        “I used to be all messed up on drugs… but since I found the lord… now I’m all messed up on the lord”

        • Kelly

          hilarious

  • Divan

    Hi all, I want to apoligise for any grammer or spelling mistakes I might make, as english is not my home language.

    My argument is my life story(don’t worry I’ll keep it short)

    I’m a 24 year old male from Johannesburg, South Africa.

    I was born a christian, was forced to go to a spiritually dead church for 18 years, as soon as I was old enough I ran from Christianity never to look back again. I knew all the stories, the hyms and the answers to religious questions, I was programmed over 18 years. But I DIDN’T KNOW JESUS!!!!

    I started on a destructive journey(But I didn’t know that)
    I got involved with Alcohol, Drugs, Prostitution and some other filthy stuff I don’t even want to mention.

    Everything came crashing down 1 Sunday morning, I couldnt take it anymore, I went out searching for love but all I found was a hatefull world, I went out searching for purpose but it only left me feeling useless. I gave myself over to living for pleasure but it only brought pain.
    Was this it? Where is the Happily ever after that all of us is looking for. On that Sunday morning all alone only one name came up in my moment of hopelessnes.
    Jesus, Jesus,Jesus.

    I took a step of faith and asked Jesus to pick me up out of this dirty mess I called my life……. And He did more than that, He picked me up, cleaned me up, gave me new hope, new life and new purpose. You Americans have a term Jesusfreak…… thats me totday 8 months later.
    I can’t deny Him, for I know He is, therefore I am.
    I can try my best to explain it but It’s something you have to experience for yourself.

    He fills you with love, you feel so loved that all you want to do is tell the whole world about Jesus over and over. Every time I hear His name my heart goes warm and I get a tear in my eye.

    I stumbled onto this site by accident, but I don’t believe in accidents.
    If you read this and feel your heart being moved to call on the name above all names do it, what have you got to lose?

    And if you still don’t believe in God, no worries He believes in you. And I promise you that He will keep sending people like me across your path… WHY? … because He loves you.

    Daniel my friend I read that you are looking for the truth,
    John14:6 Jesus said: I am the way the TRUTH and the life.

    Be blessed in Jesus name.

    • mwa

      To Divan……right on brother! Keep on keeping on, your faith is enlightening, and anyone (even athiest) are lying to themselves if they say they are not touched by your story. Even athiest have faith in something higher then themselves..we all do. They just don’t believe in the closed mindedness of the simple minded theological thoughts. What if we broaden our minds and look to all as one instead of breaking up into small minded groups? Add science and theology…always look for more and be at peace within our ownselves….hmmm concept?

      • Francesc

        I’m touched by his story, but I don’t believe Jesus has anything to do with his “salvation”, tough maybe his faith, after being brainwashed as a child, had to do with both: his previous alienation and then his salvation

        Let’s see it that way: I know homeopathy is crap. So, tough for some people homeopathy could have some placebo effects, it will not work for me because I don’t believe it can help me. Could I force myself to believe it? Not, because I know it’s crap.
        I can delude myself enough to be affected by your placebo.

        “He will keep sending people like me across your path… WHY?”
        Correlation does not imply causation. I will find people like you across my path because there is people like you wanting to apostolize. I can also find a lot of muslim people wanting to do the same and I’m definitely not converting to islam

        “Even athiest have faith in something higher then themselves..we all do”
        I have faith in humanity, wich at least do exist. I don’t have faith in any invisible supernatural being.

        • Francesc

          lol
          I can delude-> I can’T delude

      • http://notsodailyfrench.com Briega

        mwa, Sorry, I’m not touched by the zillionth version of the same boring story. And about: “athiest have faith in something higher then themselves..we all do” could you tell me which course you followed to learn how to read minds, and specially, how to read MINE.

    • Garrick McElroy

      I beg to differ. While his story would be touching to someone who hasn’t heard it many times over, I have. The reason he insists that he feels all this great love is because (at least in my opinion, I am not trying to be rude or spiteful) his mind has invented it all to make him feel better.

      And saying that atheists all believe in something higher than themselves, is also incorrect. I do not believe in anything above me, in a spiritual sense. I am not large, the galaxies are larger, I believe that they are there, if that’s what you mean. But saying that we all believe that there is something higher than us, that’s incorrect. I believe that everything is pure chance, nothing else. There is no higher power (in my opinion), there is no afterlife (in my opinion), and religions are almost always started to gain money (in my opinion). I do believe, good sir, that you are incorrect in your assumptions.

    • Joshua

      It’s called suggestive psychology. The Placebo Effect. You want so desperately to believe it that your mind creates feelings, images, and sounds to make you believe. “He fills you with love, you feel so loved that all you want to do is tell the whole world about Jesus over and over.” Um, yeah. That’s the feeling. Oh, and “He picked me up, cleaned me up, gave me new hope, new life and new purpose.” Has it ever occurred to you that you didn’t just straighten yourself out? Divine intervention isn’t required. Believe it or not, you make your own choices. Grow up, and lose your imaginary friend, you’re a bit too old for that.

    • jeckyl8

      “I used to be all messed up on drugs… but since I found the lord… now I’m all messed up on the lord”

    • Ruthie

      I could recite crap stories like this in my sleep. Especially since you seem a little -vague- on the details.

      There’s no way to know who you are for sure, but I’d be willing to bet my iPhone that you’re some Christian based in America (or the UK or Australia, but probably America) who thinks that making up stories like this is fine if it means someone comes to god, the ends justify the means, etc., ignoring the fact that you’re breaking a commandment.

      Come up with something more interesting next time.

    • staticXcharacter

      I love your story, I’m searching for my own way right now and hearing your story among so many opposing ones is refreshing. Thank you.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Divan: That’s your standard evangelism story. I have one too, and so does every other ex-Christian. The fact is, it did help you clean up, but so could have anything else. Instead of throwing it all on Jesus, give yourself some credit.

    Everyone has a story in every religion. Yours isn’t any different. Instead of giving anecdotes like everyone does in every religion, you need to realize there is absolutely no evidence for God or Jesus’ miracles. None. All you are doing is blinding believing what others tell you. And that’s fine — as long as you don’t push it on others.

    Also, you don’t seem to realize that your argument for God is the first one I listed:

    10. MORAL ARGUMENT (II)
    (1) In my younger days I was a cursing, drinking, smoking, gambling, child-molesting, thieving, murdering, bed-wetting bastard.
    (2) That all changed once I became religious.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

    Your comment could have been summed up with “another one for #10!” Therefore, Jesus loves you!

  • Divan

    @Daniel

    You do have some good points my friend, but I can’t label my relationship with Jesus, He is as real to me as you are, I can’t see you, but I know you exist and I communicate with you be it email, thoughts, prayer etc….

    I laughed when I saw Standard Evangelism story, and you are right, there are alot of these story’s, every 2nd person has one, but to me who actually experienced this standard evangelism story there is nothing standard about it,

    Tell me about your near death experience, and I might listen intently, but it wont have the impact it did on you.

    But Jesus can touch any heart any where…

    have a blessed day my friend :)

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Divan: I know it is real to you — and mine was and is real to me. My life did change when I became a Christian, but instead of attributing it to Jesus now, I know it was a mixture of social pressure, fanaticism, passion, etc.

  • Divan

    @Daniel: It’s good to make a concious decision to follow Jesus, but it’s normally a heart’s conviction.

    In your 10 years as a Christian, did you never experience an encounter with Jesus (I don’t mean face 2 face) but a supernatural feeling of being surrounded by love, or just knowing that you know that you know….. that there is a superior, glorious force at work around you?

    For me personally saying that Jesus doesn’t exist is like saying that there is no Sun.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Divan: Yes, of course I felt those sorts of things. The problem is, it’s just a feeling. There is no Jesus. You can have that sort of feeling thinking about a lover who isn’t in the room, too. But if Jesus is really, where is he? There is no evidence for his resurrection or a. There is no evidence he has ever appeared to anyone — has he appeared to you? If so, what did he say that no man could say or that your mind could not make up? Why is all your evidence based on anecdote and hearsay and superstition and feeling, instead of anything real?

  • Divan

    @Daniel I have experienced these “feelings”, mostly where christians were present for the sole purpose of giving praise and worshipping Jesus.

    I know what you mean about feeling that way about a lover, but let me tell you no person other than Jesus can make one experience such love, well that’s what I believe.

    I’m sure you have experienced some amazing moments in the presence of the All Mighty in your 10 odd years as a believer.

  • KS

    The ecstatic experiences during religious services, feelings of unity, contact with the Divine, etc., are common to all religions. And ecstacy through prayer is also common to all religions and many non-religious-specific meditation practices.

    I think the thing that bugs me the most about Christianity in our country is the common assumption that everyone is Christian, coupled with the added assumption that if you are not Christian (i.e. ‘saved by the blood’), then you are evil, or at best, misguided and so must be rescued from yourself.

    I really like the idea of a benevolent Divine. I am always perplexed how Christian stories of a benevolent God always end with “and if you don’t believe, He will cast you in Hell to burn for eternity”. Loving Father? Not so much….

  • http://www.myspace.com/thirdball Chris

    Is there an argument against the statement “God is love”?
    Your story fascinates me.

  • http://lovesickbilly.com Bronson Page

    @98: I’ve had some pretty good X in my life, but none of it was what I’d call divine.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Brenda

    I don’t go for all the falderol and nonsense of organized religion either. It is an institution of some historical facts mixed with a lot of tradition and perpetration upon complacent folks. I grew up in the church and blindly bought in to the whole thing, and yet, I have no animosity for those who want to be there. I have great disdain for parts of it and no feelings one way or the other for other parts of it. It means nothing to me. I suppose if church and religion make one feel comfortable, then so be it.

    But there is a deeper question here.

    I’m not sure we have to call it “God”, but doesn’t there have to be some sort of a force for the existence of matter?

    A force of some kind for the existence of the big bang, and then what was the force before that, and before that, and before that?

    There is something here -we can see it, touch it, feel it, and yes prove it through scientific means. We certainly can’t prove that a force exists but there must be an origin????

  • Mark

    @Brenda,

    I see where you are coming from. Logically, effect follows cause. At least it does in our 4 dimensional understanding of things. When we move beyond the 4th dimension, however, the linearity of time and the assumption that effect must follow cause break down. We live in the 4th dimension, but (at least in theory) there are 10.

    I am way out of my depth of knowledge at this point, but I do know things get strange when time & space are no longer relevant.

    It’s mind warping stuff – check it out
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c8a_1188269118

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Brenda

    @Mark

    Do we have to have time and space for there to be cause and effect?

    And maybe there has always been, always is, and always will be, an “is-ness”, be it matter or otherwise.

    Maybe the manifestation of matter, no matter what the dimension, is the always-ness effect of “is-ness”.

    What fascinating thoughts.

  • Francis

    I’m just pointing out, those were pretty funny! Daniel F. said that even if he were still a christian, he would have laughed at them. I am a christian, and i laugh at them!

  • judith collier

    So Daniel, you got to thinking huh?

  • Jessica

    What an interesting and well reasoned blog this is, thoughtful and with no fundamentalism. Excellent.

  • http://everythingiseventual.wordpress.com/ everythingiseventual

    you’re an interesting man mr florien.

  • keithcarpenter

    Just a thought…there is nothing we “know” as humans that has a final explaination. we like to pretend that we have an explaination and call it science, but all science proves is that we don’t yet know anything for certain. There are just as many fundamentalist scientists as there are fundy Christians.

    I see nothing Fun in De Mentalism. If we would just come to the conclusion that we don’t really understand and should continue trying to understand we might be better off all around.

  • Teleprompter

    @ keithcarpenter

    “we like to pretend that we have an explanation and call it science, but all science proves is that we don’t yet know anything for certain”

    Hmm…then how would you explain all of the applications we have access to in our daily life that are based on science? We have evidence about scientific matters that we use to apply to real world problems. Can religion do that?

    “there are just as many fundamentalist scientists as there are fundy Christians”

    Could you elaborate on that? What are scientists “fundamentalist” about…using logic? reason? not believing something until there is evidence? If I was your doctor, and I told you that you had a dangerous disease, wouldn’t you want evidence? Would you blindly take someone’s word for granted in your daily life?

    Also, scientists are always willing to change their minds as soon as they have new evidence. Wish I could say the same thing for fundy Christians. Scientists are always open to change their minds if new ideas have evidence to support them. That’s definitely not a fundamentalist quality.

  • cello

    If Christians are suggesting that there is something wrong with being a fundamentalist athiest or a fundamentalist scientist, logic would follow that there is something wrong with being a fundamentalist Christian.

    Heh.

  • Lauren

    I was once a Christian but now I’m not.

    Therefore,
    God does not exist.

    Nice logic there.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Lauren: That is horrible logic. I don’t know anyone who is using it, though.

    • Cheryl R. Lea

      All these questions have good answers that you either are not really interested in finding anymore or want to reduce God into a simpleton that can be easily knocked down to justify whatever is going on in your head. Why did God create a creature ( man) which such an incredible ability to cause pain to others, suffer, self destruct and to live in denial about? Is Neitsche ‘Beyond good an evil’ atheist (Hilter’s favorite philosopher) a true progression or a prime example of God’s creature? The only way you can prove anything about God, without the benefit of ” unfaith or faith” is by being omniscient and you can prove this by omnipotence. write [redacted] on facebook too short here.

      [Please do NOT post personally identifiable information here - Custador]

      • Kodie

        Why did God create a creature ( man) which such an incredible ability to cause pain to others, suffer, self destruct and to live in denial about?

        Why did man create god? How do you come to think that, simply because an idea spreads, that it’s true, or may be as true as not, or is still worth accepting as true as not? God is a rumor. You can believe it, or you can dismiss it, or you can think it through. Some people think they think it through and can’t make up their mind, while others think they think it through and find no reason to reject that god is possible. There is more than one way to get to a valid conclusion than being omniscient. Denying that carrots exist while someone shows you a carrot, demonstrates how he grew the carrot and eats the carrot to show you that it’s food, you can’t be 50/50 on such. You might doubt carrots are food, or specify that as far as you’re concerned, it is more of a “rabbit” thing and not for you, but you would be a fool to say there is no such thing as a carrot after you’ve been shown one.

        Meanwhile, how does god appear to people? In stories they persist in telling, and self-proven “miracle” demonstrations, feeding the mind what it wants to believe, but no one has seen it, no one has found evidence on the earth or in the stars that there is a deity who governs it all. They are gullible for the persistent rumor of the popular idea that there is a god; while god does not talk for himself, everyone only hears about him from another person. The books contradict reality and themselves, and each other. Surely the same, real, god would not miss people on his earth just because they lived in the wrong location, so that they would be fooled into believing in a completely different god, so that we have to send missionaries to correct the perfection of god. What kind of half-assed god.

        The wisdom the texts may have came from people, as people can be wise sometimes, but it’s tangled up in garbage that is not sensible advice and often horrifying “personal” aspects of the deity, as relayed through a person or persons. The persistence of any particular belief over thousands of years is no reason to grant it any credibility, if you think it through. Surely an actual god who did care about humans or the planet earth would want to correct his message without being cryptic about it (like sending Jesus, a man, to speak for him and symbolize a sacrifice), or requiring scholars, or preachers, to read the books for us and tell us what they really mean. Any magical thinking has to be examined, or else you are prone to believing a rumor. You might think you haven’t got enough information, nor anyone else does, to decide, but god was master of the people when they didn’t have another explanation, and then god was responsible for the patterns they recognized, but that was a long time ago. You don’t need to be omniscient to decide that the existence of god just doesn’t hold water. The books pound into the reader, they must have faith, it all breaks down to not being able to see something that’s there, and wanting to be loved, and wanting to have a purpose and a hidden plan to discover. What do you still need to know, to know?

      • Custador

        Every time an idiot theist tries to associate atheism with Hitler (who was a Christian, for the record), a baby dies. It’s true. I’ve got this magic book that says so.

        • UrsaMinor

          No, no! She said “Hilter”. You missed the fact that this is clearly a Monty Python reference, not a serious philosophical talking point.

      • Bill

        Why do we keep getting theists reviving old threads like this?

        Kind of strange.

  • spence-bob

    Assumption 1: God exists, and resides in heaven
    Assumption 2: Man is incapable of entering heaven alone.

    Therefore, God sent his son, Jesus, to die for Man, to allow him to enter heaven.

    Can you not see how incoherent this is? It makes no sense at all.

  • Molly

    Daniel.

    Thank you for your thoughts, your blog, and your sense of humor. I am so grateful to have stumbled across your site – it’s like a breath of fresh air. It’s incredibly refreshing to realize that other people, somewhere out there, are applying rational thought to their own religion and are coming to the same conclusions.

    I would love to single out everything I’ve read on your site that made me laugh and everything that stuck a personal chord and made me cringe, but I wouldn’t know where to start.

    There were many factors involved in my “letting go” of my faith, but one of the biggest ones was both individual Christians’ and the Church as a whole’s aversion to logical thought and intellectual inquiry. When I had questions about the Bible or theology, people would accuse me of “over-intellectualizing” my faith. I was told that it was a matter of the heart instead of the mind, which is a serious bummer as I’m not a very emotional person to begin with; nothing else in my life could be considered a “matter of the heart” unless it’s also accompanied by a serious dose of logic.

    I spent a lot of time trying to fix my “over-intellectualizing” habits and trying to feel the presence of God more deeply. I couldn’t do it. I got tired of people telling me to stop thinking, and (even as a Christian) it made me sick to think that so many people could just accept something without thinking at all about it, without having any qualms about the fact that the tough questions are still unanswered.

    I am not bitter or angry. I have not been hurt any more by people in the Church than by people outside of the Church, and I harbor absolutely no resentment or judgment toward those who still choose to be religious. I have no grudges, religious or otherwise. Since letting go of Christianity almost two years ago, I finally feel free and healthy and sane, and I honestly have never been happier.

    Anyway, I’m sure my “de-conversion” story is almost cliche by now. But seriously, thanks again for everything.

  • Eric

    @spence-bob:

    The idea is based on the hebrew tradition of animal sacrifices. They believed they deserved to die for their sins, so they ritually cleansed themselves and the sacrificial animal before killing it in place of themselves. People would sacrifice things like sheep or doves. Thus Christ as the sacrifice for all of humanity.

  • Georgia

    There are a lot of sensationalistic reasons people talk and believe the way they do & I can’t claim to be outside of it all the time. The fun is being able to go in and out & perhaps someone who grew up strictly christian wasn’t afforded that luxury.. I don’t know. But I do know that evidence seems a funny premise to base any belief on. The word belief seems to supersede the need for evidence.
    I am saving this blog to come back and read everything over again because..it’s fun. Eric I don’t think you can sum up the teaching of Jesus without saying “to Love God & Love people..”
    ramblingsfromthezoo intrigues me.. I totally believe Anne when she says that she and others “left religion very reluctantly”. It kind of reminds me of some of my friends who decided to be gay.
    Anyway I am a believer. & yes in Christ. But I believe we just have to be free. We get tangled in stuff, we can’t help it.. However you learn to be free I think is blessed but it’s just one point however faceted you perceive yourself to be, along a very long way. The brain? Thoughts? Finite? Infinite!

  • http://brainlessgeorge.com George Sansbury

    Man, this post is fantastic. I giggled the whole way through.

    I’ve been a fan of Dawkins for a little while and I was going down a similar path as you, as far as ex-Christian status goes.

    You’re definitely a kindred spirit.

  • Erik

    @Molly

    Being accused of over-intellectualizing (which is by itself horrible logic) must be horrible for a mind using reason rather than zealotry.

    I generally agree with everything you say, although I lack any such experience (thankfully lacking a religious upbringing).

  • dodol

    so … why don’t you try to create an another version of Qur’an

    I think it’s the best challenging activity for you…
    if you able to do it.. you’ll be the next God!

    The Qur’an itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it.

    017.088
    Say: “If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

    src:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @dodol: Lots of holy books like the Koran exist. The OT & NT, Book of Mormon, Bhagavad Gita, The Analects, Talmud, Tao-te-ching, Upanishads, Vedas, etc.

    There have been books produced like the Koran before it existed, and there have been books produced after.

    For proof that a single person can write something like the Koran in a short period of time, do some research on Mormonism. They claim the same exact thing as you (“how could such a work of perfection be made without being written by God? try it yourself!”).

  • http://www.upstart-productions.com Jeff

    Hi Daniel. Great blog and the discussion threads are generally civil and intelligent – a far cry from most religious/anti-religious blogs on the web.

    So, yes this is a humorous list; however, having been a Christian for 15 years and in the church most of my life I have a few observations (wouldn’t you know).

    First, I’ve known a lot of Christians over the years but I can’t think of too many that would heartily stand behind any of these fallacies for long. When pressed, most Christians readily admit that the first node in their religious worldview flowchart is a FAITH in god – not a proof of gods’ existence.

    Sure it’s easy to believe that most Christians are fundamentalist whackjobs with little to no capacity for rational thought but, in my experience that simply isn’t true.

    In one response to Divan, you get pretty dogmatic by stating “…you need to realize there is absolutely no evidence for God…”. I don’t know, I look around and I see evidence for the existence of God everywhere – no proof, though. I also see evidence that God may not exist.

    Of course, we all know the final verdict, right? In the absence of absolutely provable absolute truth, my explanation for reality is based on the existence of God, your is not. Perhaps some time in the future we’ll find out the truth – perhaps we will not. In the meantime, ignorance is bliss for everyone, isn’t it?

    As a Christian, my charge for this life comes from Romans 12…
    “Do not pay anyone back evil for evil, but focus your thoughts on what is right in the sight of all people. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live in peace with all people.”

    Works for me. Thanks for your work here, Daniel.

  • Palema

    Jeff, I just went and read Romans 12, and verse 3 appears to say that faith comes to people through God’s grace; is that so?

    Or does faith come to people through their own efforts? IF it’s grace that would explain some things I thought puzzling.

    You hear from time to time about people who tried really hard and just couldn’t. Others find their way to faith in god without much trouble at all. That would seem to support the idea that faith just comes to you, by grace.

    It would also suggest that the evangelicals are kind of wasting their time with some people and should just focus on being kind.

  • Andrew

    I was a fundamental atheist but now I am not.

  • Julian

    My favorite proof of god’s existence is Descartes’. He states that such an all powerful, all perfect being would, in addition to many other wonderful qualities, certainly have the attribute of existence.

    It’s so perfectly circular it exemplifies all possible arguments for religion.

  • Wolter

    I really would like to be able to get along with religious people. There are, however, two kinds of religious people I cannot tolerate:

    1. Proselytizers. Anyone who makes conversation with the ulterior motive of converting another person to their faith is beneath contempt, and generally intolerable.

    2. Political activists. Anyone who pushes to restrict another’s freedom based on his own religious rules is a blight upon society, and cannot be tolerated.

  • Pingback: Proof that there is no God « Technotations

  • Tom Human

    Chiming in a little late here… (what a lot of very polite intelligent people on both sides!)

    Speaking to the point raised by Divan, it’s very true that if you worship Jesus, you’ll get these incredible feelings of bliss and experience religious communion with your deity.

    Now, I’m going to bring in a rather sensitive name here, Aleister Crowley, who was definitely not really a nice guy, and something of a nutcase to boot. That said, he wasn’t altogether evil and he wrote some interesting things about humans and their relationship to the divine (and to other things like angels and demons), which in our time was also discussed by Robert Anton Wilson.

    It is verifiable by personal experimentation that if you focus your attention on *any* god – Jesus, Odin, Buddha, Krshna – and dedicate yourself to their worship, you will have a religious experience relating to that God. And, if you then transfer your attention to another God, you’ll get the same effect with your new God.

    This is one of the reason that all religions share the idea that you aren’t ever allowed to even think about the other religions being true – because you could so easily get hooked and have an experience with the new god!

    So *this is a fundamental phenomenon of human consciousness*. It unfortunately says nothing at all about the literal truth of your religious beliefs – Hindus, Muslims, Jews and Christians, all get their own religious experiences.

  • Sage1991

    wow, those reasons that god exists suck. there is no proof.

  • http://readscott.com Scott M.

    Hello all. I’m a Christian. It’s a choice for me, as well as for many other Christians. I would say that it’s similar to the choice many atheists have made *not* to be a Christian.

    So…it looks like you and I have both made a decision about God, and that decision is different. So be it.

    However, I do understand that the purpose of this blog is not to “convert” theists to atheists, but rather to express your journey. That, I can respect.

  • http://www.out-of-order.ca bp

    Try this one. In broad strokes:

    A) Jews claim that God revealed Himself to the whole nation at Mount Sinai.
    B) During that revelation He commanded them with many, many commandments. Some of those commandments were to thenceforth remember that very revelation on daily, weekly, monthly and yearly bases.
    C) Now, with a revelation made to only one person, and then communicated to a larger group, it would have been imaginable, and indeed highly likely that either the revelation was a fake, or the message corrupted.
    D) This revelation, however, was claimed to be made to a whole nation — 3 million people — all at once.
    E) It is not reasonable to suggest that 3 million people would all simultaneously choose to invent a highly complex and demanding law (just ask your local talmudic scholar) and then keep to that law for 3500 years. (especially one that contains within it self referential reminders every day, week, month and year)
    F) It is much more reasonable to propose that the revelation was indeed a true revelation of God.

    Notes:
    i) This argument rests upon the fact that Jews make the claim. No one else even dares make such an outlandish claim. Imagine President Obama addressing the nation about the alien visitors who descended from on high and broadcast muffin recipes into the minds of every American one hour after the close of his inauguration ceremony. He can’t claim that because it would be a claim that rests on your experience.

    ii) Let’s say a nation could somehow pull off such a claim, and that really it’s not such a special thing. If that’s the case, how come the Jews are the only ones to ever attempt it? Surely if it was not supernatural (read: natural) for such claims to be made, it would have happened more than once (because natural things happen more than once)

    This is called the “historical proof,” the “proof from Sinai” or the “kuzari principle”. See Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb for a more thorough and accurate treatment.
    http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/publications.htm

  • Timothy Zak

    The form of argument which has most often persuaded me – buffeted me from belief to faith, from scepticism to skepticism, – lies in the difference between the basis of those who accept a proposition, and the basis of those who reject a proposition. It is an argument to authority, in a plausible guise, the idea that if the ignorant thin one thing and those who know think another, I am better off with the opinion of those who know.

    Unfortunately, there are many counter examples. But I will give the argument just for the sake of consideration.

    1.When a person best understands God, they needs must believe in the fullest sense possible.
    2.When a person who has understood God does not believe in him, there is a corresponding decay in their understanding.

    Though not a formal-logical inference, this leads me naturally to the hypothesis that

    3. To understand God is to know God. To know God is to believe in the fullest sense.

    Though not a syllogistic argument, it does have problematic formal implications, however. One of them is that some atheists are deeper believers in God than are most theists. Whether this is really a problem, I shall let posterity decide.

  • God’s Victim

    I’ve been struck by lightening while helping and old lady. Now I don’t want God anywhere near me.

  • Kees

    Hi Daniel,

    Wow, what a refreshing sight. An atheist blog that treats theist views with respect. I’m not even talking about your original entry so much as the discussion that follows.

    It’s not often that believers and nonbelievers alike feel comfortable coming to a blog and express earnest, thoughtful, tolerant ideas. Usually after a few exchanges, it’s time to invoke Godwin’s law.

    I believe this is the web’s highest purpose: to stimulate intelligent discussion between people of vastly different persuasions.

    There you go, an article of faith from an atheist. Therefore, god exists.

  • Don

    I think that one trapping in particular keeps people believing in a God.

    1) Faith is a test to determine the value of your soul.
    2) Evil will do anything to get you to doubt your faith.
    3) Therefore, God exists.

    or

    1) If God doesn’t exist, then I’m wrong about everything.
    2) I can’t be wrong about everything I’ve believed in.
    3) Therefore, God exits.

    People have huge egos, which prevent them from seeing the truth and then traps them circular logic. This allows them to function without falling into a never ending spiral of self-doubt and confusion. Only someone that truly desires to find the truth can see things for what they really are. Since most religious people are only looking for an easy way to relieve their guilty conscience, they rarely see things for what they are.

  • Joe Squarepants

    Thanks to all who have contributed to this thoughtful dialogue.

    My personal history is that of being raised in a community of Allowite Muslims, a minority sect, all of whom emigrated to America in my early childhood. The result was I was surrounded by these figures of speech that were rooted in the faith, but no firm principles were ever forced on me. Many religious phrases are so layered and embedded with meaning that they define and frame the context of the interaction without necessarily even being noticed. That’s just an interesting side note.

    My question to all who have posted and all who have read thus far is:

    Do you believe faith and ration are communicable? Is there such a thing as “convincing” someone to believe something? Or do beliefs take form and shape in the mind through a different method (maybe an experiential one)?

    To me, to talk of logic and faith together is folly, because 1) logic is only a model, or map of reality, not the thing itself, and 2) faith is subjective, not to be reasoned out, but simply FELT.

    Those are my thoughts; thanks for reading, thanks for posting, thanks for using your brains, and thanks especially to Daniel for perpetuating this lively discussion.

    Bless us all.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    Hi there,

    I’m not really interested about this, however let me share with you some thoughts. I’ll do what I can with my english.

    If I had to understand believers’ point of view, first of all I’d read Plato. I’d agree with his idea of beauty: yes, you and I may have different opinions about the beauty or the uglyness of this particular object; but the point is that we both share an (empty) notion of beauty. This concept has to do with proportions, numbers and maths. We’ve got indeed a cientific heritage, that comes from this theory of a numeric base of what we call “reality”.

    So yes, reality may correspond with beauty, and also with what is good itself. Because amongst all possible human behaviours, those that are adequated with this “reality” mentioned before are going to be successful, and give positive feedback to the one who puts them in practice. An example: evolution.

    At this point, I’d be certainly more ready to accept that someone may want to see a God behind all this, and pray him if that makes him happier.

    Religions are sometimes just this. However, I understand that America’s believers’ stereotype is just dull. And most atheists too. “You are not well read”. That’s the reason why typical internet’s “god’s controversy” is so primitive.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ Joe Squarepants

    now that I read it, my response may as well be an answer to your question, doesnt it?

  • Eden

    I have just stumbled upon your blog, so I’m not up on your full story. Some of the comments here stimulated my mind and I just wanted to share my thoughts. I don’t know whether I would classify myself as a believer or not – I think perhaps agnostic might be the best label.

    As we explore the universe around us, I think it is good to keep in mind that we are limited – at least in our current form. (Who knows what the future holds?) I do think that science and scientific reasoning have greatly aided our progress, but they are both limited by our perceptual and intellectual ability. It should be kept in mind that science is not the only way to explore the universe around us and that other, older methods should not be discarded without reason or unbiased investigation. Remember, Christianity – and many other religions – have caused our progress to suffer with the same mentality – to discard old ways in favor of new, just because they are old.

    In order for our species to have the best possible chance of survival, I think we need to be ready and willing to use all of our faculties to the best of our ability – including logical, emotional, and intuitive reasoning.

    All that being said, there are many aspects of religion that I find unsettling or distasteful, but I think that is mostly due to the corruption of some rather good ideas by less spiritually evolved people and/or institutions. One thing in particular, though, is the Christian idea (though it may exist in other religions) of either eternal punishment or reward for temporal behavior. This is something that my mind, nay my very being, cannot accept. And so, I will likely never find myself beholden to any belief system that incorporates such a belief.

    I think I’ve gone on long enough. Daniel, thank you for this forum. To all, may you find peace along your path and take heart that there are other explorers with you!

    Cheers!

  • http://www.stupendous.net/ chrome

    This one is wonderfully twisted.

    573. ARGUMENT FROM ATHEISM
    (1) Many atheists exist.
    (2) They can’t all be right.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  • John

    For those of you who are genuinely interested, look into writings by Alvin Plantinga, Richard Swinburne, and William Lane Craig.

  • ms

    Argument #79 is awesome. It’s not belittling anyone. It’s pretty much taken directly from peoples’ statements. People are that binary in their thinking. “Either I witnessed something from God, or I’m insane.”

    People who put that forth are often exaggerating what they claim to have seen or felt and they are also taking a personal experience they want to have ownership over and proclaiming there must be God. Not only that, but it also proves all the literature in the background.

    I’m more likely to say there seems to be a force out there, perhaps it feels right, perhaps it’s real. But beyond that I’d be irresponsible to make any kind of knowledge claims about it. People are devious, sometimes unknowingly cunning, and language is full of built in trickery. It’s understandable to believe up to a certain point. Beyond that, not only is there still no proof, but as Bill Maher puts it “It’s so shamelessly made up”

    A big problem is people don’t seem to want to look at anything else profound because it’s too much mental work to follow certain things to logical conclusions. It’s too much work to absorb or truly investigate a book of another philosophy. (Think tibetan book of the dead and the Bardo realms).

    People are very appreciative to make cross cultural connections between religious origins so all hope is not lost. I think some skeptic’s approach hurts a lot. Lately I’ve felt I could transcend the arguments and keep it in check. I think people one-on-one are mostly able to tolerate logic even if it makes cracks in their beliefs. I want to say this, American belief in God / Jesus is sadly based less on personal reading, and more on the same stuff that causes people to always love a certain sports team. Sudden unexplainable urges to fight for the belief in your team, despite you having zero to do with the outcome of the games.

  • eth

    I am a Christian and the notion that there are scientific or logical proofs for the existence of God is completely foreign to me. Faith pertains to belief in the absence of available means for achieving such proof. No faith is required if one already possesses absolute proof. So I believe in God and you do not, each of us in the absence of scientific or logical proof for our belief. One of us is right and one of us is wrong.

    So the list of “proofs” is an argument for what exactly? I have a lot of trouble distinguishing it from school yard taunting of the sort “your mother wears army boots” (I know, that’s an old one, but at least it’s clean). If you cannot tolerate or respect those with religious beliefs enough to rise above the all too pervasive counterargument-by-ridicule strategy, what is the purpose of the blog? Perhaps you did not intend for Christians to read your blog. Perhaps there is no desire to dissuade Christians from their beliefs. Perhaps this blog is meant to be an atheists-only discussion. But even in a private racially homogeneous setting, I still think ridiculing another race is wrong, so I’m necessarily disappointed that your journey can’t be blogged without degenerating to ridiculing others. Yes, I do realize that you will find believers that may use some variation of your “proofs”, but an intellectually honest counterargument does not leverage the poorly versed or deviating cases. It is no more correct to debate proof of God citing theists that do not really grasp faith than it is to debate morality citing atheist rapists – neither are representative of the belief systems in question.

    FWIW, I arrived here from Reddit, without a doubt the most intolerant environment I’ve ever been in. The raw hatred for those with religious beliefs there is mind blowing – I would truly fear for my safety if it were a physical environment. Aside from the ridicule, the poisonous atmosphere is not so intense here. I know, I didn’t have to visit this blog and perhaps your domain name should have been a hint, but finding a civil theist-atheist discussion site is not easy. Try to keep things honest, Daniel.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @eth: Thanks, I try. I wouldn’t worry about your physical safety, though. People are quick to say stupid things online when they wouldn’t in the “real world.” We all believe in freedom of religion and speech here.

    (Well, except for trolls or offensive comments, which I delete.)

  • Jim O’Brien

    Consider the question of the existence of God by imagining that God exists. That is to say if God exists then is this best world that a supernatural all powerful entity would create?

    It is possible there is an unknowable, ineffable entity that only created the laws of physics over 13.4 billion years ago (why?) that evolved in to the universe we have today. That doesn’t mean I would worship it or that it would “care” if I did or not. The universe was not created for my benefit or any life form if you just look at how hostile it is to life; radiation and extreme temperatures. If this entity was actually caring and all powerful as many religions attempt to convince then imagine how nice life on Earth could be with just some simple adjustments and occasional interference that any caring entity would make. Now that life forms have evolved to result in humans after the last big cosmic catastrophe reset the planet’s balance of creatures would it be too difficult for a God who cares to simply prevent any further asteroids or other space debris from crashing into the planet? It would be an undetectable tweak to the orbit of the object and not seem to violate the laws of physics. Do we need volcanoes? Would it not be easy for a loving God to toss appropriate anti-viruses into the environment whenever bad viruses popped up? What if mosquitos and other blood sucking disease spreading creatures hated the taste of primate blood? How hard would that be to do? Change a couple of links on the DNA and they just buzz around slurping nectar. Or why have them at all? Think of the misery that would have been avoided. Wouldn’t life be easier if all animals could generate some energy from photosynthesis directly? So what if we had green skin as a result? What about tweaking DNA so that everyone is twice as smart as we are? Maybe overpopulation, pollution and other short sighted human actions would be avoided and life on Earth would be less of a competition for resources and struggle against the fear of the ignorant.

    In summary there is no God because everything can be explained by understanding the sciences, not attributing it to a careless super being who obviously doesn’t care to do things in our benefit.

  • doug

    I think another common one goes:

    (1) If there is no God, there probably isn’t an afterlife, which means that someday we will simply die and cease to exist.

    (2) That is a fate too scary to contemplate.

    (3) Therefore God exists.

  • 3hirty6ix

    I “experienced” Jesus when I smoked pot once. What does that mean?

  • Jesse

    As an existentialist, I like to think that either something exists or it doesn’t. It’s binary. There can only be 1 existence right? It seems to me that creationism implies 2 existences, God’s existence before he created everything, and the existence we all live in, supposedly created by God. I think of our existence as a timeless one. It is infinite in either direction, past or future but ultimately we live in the present. I personally enjoy the classic question “If God created us then what created God?” The usual answer is God has always existed, which at least in my logic means that if there’s only one existence, and there is a God, then God didn’t create us because existence already existed. The whole week of creation story is so childish. I’m not going to raise my children to be brainwashed and mentally restricted by this stuff.

  • GOD

    277. You seriously lack something called “BRAIN”

  • freddie

    i have dreadlocks
    therefore god exists

    seems like the correct logic to me

  • Greg

    Its fair enough to become disillusioned with the church, I mean evangelicals are the more extreme.
    However this doesn’t mean you have to go the polar opposite direction and gobble up the words of another man who is just as credible as those who wrote the scriptures you now denounce.

    There are other options, other teachings that do not set out to attack or discredit. philosophies that embrace the core values that we all yearn for.

    Have a look at Eckhart Tolle, he is a truly wise man.

    as Jesus said, Gods kingdom is within us.

    don’t be fooled by the aggression of scholars. follow your heart, for within your heart lies the answers.

  • Greg

    The scholar I speak of, to be clear is Dawkins, and his god delusion.

  • david W

    Yo Dawg
    Can you please compile a similar list of arguments for non-existence of God. I mean just to be fair?

  • icefire

    Jesus says John 11:25
    “Whovever believes in me and lives shall never die”
    “Whovever dies and believes in me shall live”

    Jesus has never lied to me.
    No one has ever proved Jesus words were lies.
    Therefore i have no reason to doubt His words
    Therefore to test the truthfullness i need to hold Jesus to his promise
    I can only do this at physical death
    Therefore my faith is based on the truthfullness of the Bible’s Words.
    Therefore there God exists

    The day scientist develop a cure for death i can obviously no longer believe in this

    Atheists tell me there is no God
    Atheists have lied to me before
    I observed their daily incorrectness and human error.
    They promise me that there is no God
    Yet everyday i doubt their words just by looking at the worlds wonders
    An atheist has never comforted me when my problems were to much to bare
    I dont strive to be a better person denying Gods existance
    I do believing in it.
    So morally believing in Jesus i want to be a better person
    Which is required by God in the Bible
    Therefore God exists

    These days there are very few people if any who i can believe a 100% of the time.Yet i can sit on a chair anytime i want even though i have gained weight and still have faith that it will support me.
    Faith in something that hasen’t failed you is stronger then a belief in anything.

    Im not a Christian AKA Religious, i am called a Christian
    so others may know i have a close personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
    there is no other religion that can say this and still argue the 100% truthfulness of the mentor.You are Atheist AKA Religious but your relationship ,your mentor
    is yourself.And as far as i know only insane people lie and decieve themselves.

  • http://www.hehetube.com Hilarious

    165. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
    (1) That’s really cool.
    (2) God must have done that.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

    This is hilarious! Great list!

    David

  • http://www.pinksy.co.uk/ Pinksy

    I thought of these:

    1. God does not exist.
    2. Therefore, God exists.

    1. He just does.

    1. La la la, I can’t here you.
    2. Therefore, God exists.

  • Swampmaster

    @icefire
    Essentially, that is saying: Someone made claims that are impossible to disprove until I am dead. Since I cannot disprove these claims, I believe in them. The thing is that you trust in Jesus’ word from the start because you believe in his divine nature. If Jesus was just a schmoe like the rest of us, then he is just as prone to human mistakes and deception as anyone. And without being so scholarly on the Bible (tried reading it, never could get through it: I find it boring, childish, and frankly immoral), I feel quite sure that many parts of the Bible have in fact been disproved.

    A few things I always found fascinating about faith is: how do you pick your faith? I mean, there are hundreds of religions out there, each claiming to be the right one. So let’s say I truly and honestly felt like there was a supernatural explanation to the world, how do I know which one to pick? The one most accepted in my immediate environment? (ie. christianity), the oldest one? (must be something like buddhism or judaism-or actually polytheism of course). People in each faith feel a profound connection to their’s, but each contradicts the other, how to find out which one is right?

    Another thing is that all monotheistic religions have a starting point in history. There was man before monotheism was invented. Therefore, was every man who lived before the prophet of whichever religion came along to enlighten them condemned in the eyes of God for not believing in something that had not been revealed to him?
    All those Chinamen who lived before Renaissance brought explorers with western religion, were they sent to Hell without ever having a chance to believe? That’s one of the reason to me (if there is a God, which I don’t believe)
    he is either: not a loving God, for he does not give all humans the same opportunity to be enlightened by him
    OR he cannot require specific beliefs/rituals in order to accept you as a good person.
    Which means most of Western religions get sent down the crapper.

  • Wolter

    And here’s the rub, Swampmaster:

    There are many other religions who claim to hold the ultimate truth and salvation, and they all have people just like you who claim that it is the Truth because they have faith in it.
    And ALL of them exhort others to believe their unprovable “truth” using various flawed arguments such as “I can’t prove Xenu DOESN’T exist, so I’ll believe he does.”

    So tell me, what makes YOUR religion more True than THEIR religion?

    What makes the following religions wrong and yours right:
    - Islam
    - Buddhism
    - Jehova’s Witnesses
    - Hinduism
    - Catholicism
    - Scientology
    - Shintoism
    - Zoroastrianism
    - Jainism
    - Mormons
    - Taoism
    - Sikhism
    - Bahá’í
    - John Frum

    Adherents of every single one of these religions is thoroughly convinced that they have access to the supreme supernatural Truth, and yet it is impossible for more than one of them to be true.

    By what measure do you judge one of them to be The Truth and condemn all of the others as lies?

  • d00d

    That wondrous feeling of love some get from Jesus, or religious experiences, is the chemical dopamine rushing through your brain. The same chemistry as when you fall in love. Studies have shown that all religions share this ability for dopamine release, whether praying or meditating, etc..

  • d00d

    An argument I like to use is to ask a Christian how they feel about the Koran. They’ll usually say its a primitive, barbaric, man made book of superstitions. Well, that’s exactly how I feel about the Bible. Now you know.

  • Mike Friesen

    christianity is not a religion. It is a state of being. It is not believeing in God or Jesus. Satan knows them to be true. He lived with them. Even the atheist knows in his heart that God exists he just refuses to admit it. Man did not come from a fish or a monkey or any other animal. Man just uses that reasoning to keep from admitting the truth that he and every other human in the world knows. And that is that there is a higher power that created him and the animals man claims he came from. And Daniel, if you were truly a Christian, which I believe you were and still are, you are creating a huge stumbling block for those who are not. God and Jesus love you, you were givin a job and you got disenchanted with it so you came up with this to excuse yourself. And the only way you could justify it was to start this blog. I cannot cast judgement on you but God will. He doesnt punish Christians in heaven he punishes us down here. That is why you see Christians suffer and non-Christians prosper. Don’t get me wrong, you are not the only one who feels the way you do. God expects us to feel like this. He isn’t going to cast us out or disown us for these feelings even if we do Him. There is nothing we do or think that He doesn’t already know about. Please take these words to heart and pray. Come back. We all love you.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Mike: Emotional pleas do not work here. If you have evidence for the miracles of Christianity and for God, show them. Otherwise your pleas will fall on deaf ears.

  • Bob Megoocha

    Most of my Atheist friends seem fond of this argument against God’s existence:

    1. Religion is bad.
    2. Therefore, God does not exist.

  • T-Rex

    Molly’s experience sounds a lot like mine. She even uses the words “letting go” which is how I describe my feeling of giving up Christianity.

    In addition to the illogic of much of the bible (which makes sense if you realize the OT is an oral history taken from different sources, hence the differing accounts of the same events. And the NT was an attempt to retrofit prophecy to make the story of Jesus appear to be part of something larger.) I was also very bothered by how a “Loving Father” could be so cruel to some of his children. And how odd it was that we were expected to constantly prove our love.

    And then there was the whole belief thing. It didn’t matter a bit what you did, or how you treated other people, if you didn’t believe. And so I constantly second guessed myself about whether I believed deeply enough, truly enough. I was in fear for my soul even as i stood in church and prayed. How crazy is that? And I won’t even get started on the fear and dread I felt about everyone I loved who may or may not also believe deeply and truly enough. Were they destined for hell?

    I gave up Christianity gradually over a couple of years, one piece at a time, and finally rid myself of the last of it (as much as is possible since I grew up with it) around twelve years ago. I’ve felt much better ever since.

    Now I find that I can accept the possibility of a Divine Consciousness. But the cool thing is, it doesn’t matter if it actually exists or not. Doesn’t matter if I believe in it or not. I drift in and out of belief, in fact, and nothing changes. There is no need to prove it, or disprove it. There is no *way* to prove it or disprove it. It’s merely a way of viewing the universe. Or not. And I’m finally at peace.

  • Wolter

    Anyone who would say that there are no gods because religion is bad would qualify as an idiot.

    Religion is bad because it has been demonstrated to be detrimental to society. This is incidental to, and is not a proof or disproof of, the supernatural.

    Claims to the supernatural cannot, by definition, be disproved. People who experience a “supernatural” phenomena will usually believe in the face of ample evidence to the contrary. That’s just the way the human mind works with these sorts of things. We like everything around us to make sense, and are even willing to accept ideas that have no rational merit simply because they sound good and ease the discomfort of not knowing.

    The scientific process was developed in order to compensate for this human deficiency, and has been an invaluable tool in scientific and medical fields to weed out the snake oil that plagued us for so many millenia.
    So, too, has it proven an effective tool in disproving the various claims of every mainstream religion with regards to their coded histories and “truths”.

    You won’t ever find an absolute proof of anything without having knowledge of everything. Not even gravity can be absolutely proven, even though we experience it every day and take it for granted.
    You can, however, dissect arguments and ideas, and use a rational method to determine their accuracy and merit. Without such a process, you are left without a rudder, to be tossed about by competing ideas until you latch upon anything that passes by so as to give yourself the illusion of stability.
    Indeed, this is how we went from Pythagoras to the Salem witch trials.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ Wolter

    finally a rational view on this subject. Even too rational… I mean that we are daily forced to guess things, for we always will ignore more things than those that we do know. So there will always be room to the “God” theory, even in a rational way, as I tried to describe in my comment before.

    I really don’t mind how you name it, as long as you live with some right ideas, that art, science and -not the evil one- religion may provide you.

    But I assure you that this “God” idea, fairly understood, has some advantadges that other ideas doesn’t. They are, mainly, poetry and synthetization. Not it vain, the cross is a symbol.

  • Wolter

    I don’t see how the “god” idea would have an advantage in poetry. Poetry is thin light shone into the recesses of the self. It is an examination of the things which drive us, held up to be presented rather than judged. In poetry, even the ugly is beautiful.

    I’m afraid I don’t understand what you mean by synthetization…

  • icefire

    @Swampmaster

    Yes Jesus did make claims which i cant prove until i am dead.But im not saying that if any person makes a claim ie the flying spagetti monster i would believe it if i cant disprove it.
    Any human invention we have today has been developed to fulfill a need. there would be no medicine for flu if no one had flu before.If someone says all of a sudden that they have found a cure for Aids all that cared will turn their full attention towards this person and depending on how he presents his story many will believe in him..This is because there is a need to cure Aids.

    We all die that is a fact but not all want to die some want to live for various reasons,and so have a need and therefore put their faith in someone or something that can provide that.

    Of all the religions i have looked at ,only Jesus wrote a tutorial on defeating death both by explaining first and playing it out.
    Jesus says believe in me and you will live, Dies,Rises up and joins His Father in Heaven.

    can the flying spagetti monster save me from death?Can atheism save me from death. Id love to empower myself and save myself but experience with failure tells me my chances are slim.

    Yes i haven’t proved the fact that Jesus actually survived death but i do have the faith that He did.Why because i have chosen to. Does this mean i am saved or different or insane ?.Nope I made my choice because it was presented to me and found not fault or misdirection and i accepted.That choice became open to all after Jesus died. the first peson to accept it was the guy on the cross with Jesus.He had nothing to lose and everything to gain.So did the other guy on the other side but he didnt choose Jesus.Maybe he though he would be saved by baal or wouldn’t die. the point is that the invatation is and was open.So no i don’t believe God condems everyone without a chance. That fact that no one other then a Jehova’s Witness has reached out and given a chance to accept their religion means that their gods have other plans for me. either all other religions are meaningless and they will accept me anyway inspite of any practises required or they will condem me even though they didnt invite me in.That is cruel! Every other religion has strict critiria to follow that condems me in their eyes . I can’t just read the warning signs and not care either. I know many people who took that option and ignored the signs for smoking.It’s the same thing.We have been warned ,all of us, the Bible says Jesus wont’ come until the whole world has heard the gospel.Most have heard it so much they are sick of it.The warning rings loud and clear the question is who heeds it.

    Let me ask you if the Bible bores u then correct me if im wrong but i assume the Koran bores you too and im sure you have no time to go out and search out vedas or Upanishads. To understand the scripture of these religions is hard enough noneless practicing what they preach.So i understand saying to hell with religion seems a more logical choice.I feel that way sometimes aswell. But unforuanetly you have a limit on how much of your life you can spend idleing.If you want to believe that you will just accept what you get then i want to say good luck. For me i dont want to gamble with eternity and kneel before Jesus at the end of days to say but i never heard or i thought i was better off not believing in anything.If i will be held accountable then i want to be prepared.

    I have gone through as much as i can with other religions besides Christianity.I haven’t read the Bible from cover to cover and haven’t practised what it teaches many many times.
    Yet i can still lift my head high and not fear being condemed for eternity.Im not going to deny that God exists just because i have sinned too much and don’t want anyone to judge me.The fact is if God is real i will be accountable and will have to explain all my evil.If in the end i have to explain it too Allah or Krishna or not at all then well then there is nothing i can do about it i have done the best i can with the most i could have.I have exuasted all my options and settled on Jesus because i believe because of His Grace and Mercy He has chosen me.He has chosen all of us we just need to accept

  • Wolter

    @icefire:

    What you believe is of no consequence to the universe.
    You can believe that you are free of gravity, but that won’t save you if you fall from a cliff.
    You can believe that you are free of the need for air, but that won’t save you if you get dragged away by an undercurrent.
    You can believe that the Newtonian laws don’t apply to you, but that won’t stop the truck from smacking into you and killing you as you confidently walk in front of it.

    And similarly, you can believe that you’ve evaded death by believing in a god. But the truth is, you have nothing more than a subjective “feeling” to convince you of your immortality (the same subjective feeling that convinces billions of other people of their salvation in their various gods or supernatural forces). In the end, your body will fall apart and die. You can believe that you have a soul that lives on, but that won’t make it real any more than believing in Santa Claus or Vishnu or John Frum will make them real.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ wolter

    well just forget that last sentence and try to agree with the other ones.

    I don’t think that the universe gives a shit about us. In other words: the earth is one in a trillion… out there life can’t grow up beacause of constant hostile conditions everywhere. We instead have made the earth our home, and her provides all to us. We can study the universe, we can discover its rules, maybe one day -no one here knows it- we can add something or modify it in a significative way.

    I imagine relation between the divine and humans in the same terms, so that it does care about what we do. Sorry I can’t explain it better for now.

  • Pingback: links for 2009-01-26 (Jarrett House North)

  • Mike Friesen

    Daniel, I couldn’t help but notice that your responses to me and eth were short polite and to the point. You did not respond to any of our claims. We know how you feel. I truly believe we were brought here to talk to you and the lost saints like you. I believe you didn’t respond because we can see through you and this wall you have tried to put up. I believe you did not respond because you cannot argue the truth and the only defense you have left is denial. I believe right now at this very moment that there is a feeling a twinge a tug in your soul that is the Holy Spirit that dwells within every Christian, even those who make futile attempts at trying to turn. Deny all you want Daniel. That is the only proof you have that God does not exist. And you know it. What you are doing here is not helpful. It steers would be Christians away from God. You know as well as I do that words can sway opinion. What if there was a weak soul that stumbled across this sight and read all the arguments against His existence and believed them. Then this same person drives to a friends house but gets into a wreck and dies. Where does their soul end up Daniel? You know, I know, and so does every wannabe atheist on this sight and all over the world. And guess who led them down that path. Ihope and pray for you and all your so-called ex-Christian friends will read this and take it to heart and stop all this nonsense. There is more at stake here than your pride and your fragile little feelings. Whatever it was that hurt you and brought you down this path is long gone. Let it go and be strong and hold on to the faith.

    God, Jesus, me, and eth love you

  • Wolter

    “Or, why traditional Christian apologetics drive thinking people nuts. I’m Christian, btw, but this sort of stuff gives us a bad name.”

    Case in point: Mike and his and his amazing clairvoyant abilities.

    Mike, I do salute you on your uncanny display of your mind reading capabilities. To be able to so thoroughly reach into Daniel’s innermost soul and catch his very thoughts is truly an amazing display of your god’s power! May your blind faith never be pierced by reason lest those powers dissipate.

  • Mike Friesen

    Wolter, since you are a “thinking person” Stop being so closed minded. And blind is exactly what faith is. Congratulations on figuring that out by youself. If you keep up your close-minded rantings you’ll probably figure it all out. Second of all, who elected you as the spokesperson for Daniel? You apparently have no idea what goes on in a Christians soul or you would know what is happening inside of Daniel. Now if you don’t mind I will pray for you and hopefully we can talk later when you have some idea of what is going on.

    Have a blessed day

  • Wolter

    > Wolter, since you are a “thinking person” Stop being so closed minded.

    In what sense am I closed minded?

    > who elected you as the spokesperson for Daniel?

    Who said I was a spokesperson for Daniel?

    > You apparently have no idea what goes on in a Christians soul or you would know what is happening inside of Daniel.

    The same could be said of you, since you have not recognized a christian soul.

    > Now if you don’t mind I will pray for you and hopefully we can talk later when you have some idea of what is going on.

    Absolutely beautiful. A full insult cleverly cloaked in pious language. You have done your god proud.

  • Mike Friesen

    Wolter, You are closed minded because you thinking people have a reason and an answer for everything. You won’t give God a chance.

    I don’t even have to answer the second question.

    Whos soul are you referring to? Daniels or yours. Daniel is a Christian, you maybe not. Christians recognize, Wolter. There is a power higher than you and your human reasoning you cannot even begin to fathom. God doesn’t give us the answer to everything. Read Job in the bible. Son, we know other things that only Christians who study the bible and pray for guidence would know. You can’t just read the bible. You have to accept Jesus as you savior and put your blind faith in Him. Then you read the bible with an open mind and realize God is not going to give you every answer. Just know that He loves you no matter what.

    I apologize if you did not recognize my comment for what it was. I should have explained to you what I meant. I assumed you were well read in the bible and the goings on in the Christian world since you jumped into mine and Daniels business with both feet. Just from that statement of yours I would conclude that you have not been saved by the blood of Jesus and given yor life to God. Once again I apologize. Like I said, I will pray for you.

  • Wolter

    > Wolter, You are closed minded because you thinking people have a reason and an answer for everything.

    Really? I don’t recall ever saying such a thing.

    > You won’t give God a chance.

    I’ve given every god a chance. I’m going to assume that you think I didn’t simply because I came do a different conclusion than you. Is this correct?

    > I don’t even have to answer the second question.

    Why not? You seemed convinced that I am a spokesperson for Daniel. If you are so convinced, why refuse to substantiate your claim?

    > Daniel is a Christian, you maybe not.

    Really? I would not draw such a conclusion after he said “I used to believe”. But I was playing along in that argument. I took the same rationale to place myself in the christian camp, even though I am no longer.

    > There is a power higher than you and your human reasoning you cannot even begin to fathom.

    Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence. Fail in this and we’d still be fearing demonic possession and drinking snake oil.

    > Son, we know other things that only Christians who study the bible and pray for guidence would know.

    Nice, now we move on to the patronizing tone. My hat’s off to you, sir; you have lived up to my expectations.

    > I assumed you were well read in the bible and the goings on in the Christian world since you jumped into mine and Daniels business with both feet.

    Your assumption was correct.

    But in the end it all comes down to the same thing you hear in every religion: submit, obey, and believe against all evidence that contradicts the word of your god (including his own words), and you will receive supernatural gifts.

    All christians are slaves to Yahweh, just as all muslims are slaves to Allah and buddhists are slaves to the tenets of karma. At most one of them can be right (or none at all), and all are completely convinced that they know the Truth and follow it.
    And all of them are commanded to meekly obey their betters so that they will reap a reward in the afterlife. The god followers are all told that their god will take care of them and avenge the wrong done to them, so they should remain in submission at all times. Who could ask for a better control mechanism over the masses?
    What better way to tame the righteous anger of the downtrodden and ensure their oppressors remain on top? If I had the crowd charisma, I’d give serious consideration to following in the footsteps of Joseph Smith and Ron Hubbard, and make my own religion. It’s a damn good racket.

  • Mike Friesen

    Why do you call me sir , Walter? That is a sign of respect. I speak for God and Jesus and all that is in heaven. You speak for a man that is scared and lost. Faith does not need evidence. Faith is faith. You boy, are the only one here who does not know the truth. You are scared and fall back on your worldly education. And hide behind your big words. Impressive. But I know subconciously you are hoping no one else will see through your defenses. You say some mighty pretty words. And you think I can’t understand them well you would be wrong. You have not given anything a chance or you wouldn’t be talking like this. God does not let people down. You gave up on Him. You may be smart and educated but when it comes to Christianity you are dumb as a stump and you don’t want anyone to know. You are religiously stupid. That’s why you wait for some wayward Christian to come on this sight think they are weak and below your education level then pounce on them and their beliefs. You would be considered a cyber terrorist boy. Congratulations again. Whatever point you are trying to prove is falling to the ground and being trampled on by the truth. With God on my sde you are the only one that will lose in this little war of words. Like all unsaved you have taken my words twisted them to fit what you want and like Daniel put up a stumbling block for every lost soul who stumbles on this God forsaken sight. Congratulations again Waltor. If you will go back over all thatr has been said you are the only one who sounds off. Once you see past your education. Like I said just cause you read something doesn’t mean you got it.
    And how do you know demonic possession doesn’t exist? Do you think a mother of two in her right mind would drive her car with children inside into a lake and leave them to drown??? Or the terrorists of 9-11, Would my Christian God tell them to fly those planes and kill all those innocent people???? Twist that around boy. Make me believe it. Say what you want. Use whatever big words you can. I ask you the same question I asked daniel. If a lost boy or girl came on this sight and read your blasphemous words, belived them, never turned to the Christian God, my God, for salvation, then got tragically killed, who is responsible for them spending eternity in hell? Me or you?
    Write soon and don’t call me sir. I’m not your Father.

  • Wolter

    Wow…

    Just, wow…

    I guess I’ve made my point but I’m damn scared of mike now.

  • Mike Friesen

    Is that it?? That is all you have?? Stand up and fight like a man for your beliefs. You have nothing . That’s the only point you have made. You are not as educated as you thought, your words have no merit, you boy are lacking any kind of moral upbringing and my heart truly aches for you and your kind. I was told years ago not to try to convince someone like you because I would just end up frustrated and the other person would end up destined for hell. I have done you an injustice and I am apologizing for that. Don’t be scared of me, I would never harm you or anyone like you. I can only pray for you and try to make you see the truth. Which I have been a miserable failure obviously. But I am going to ask you to please not attack anyone else here. Your words do more damage than you will ever know.

  • Wolter

    Mike, what you have failed to realize is that your behavior has drastically shifted from rational discourse to raving lunacy.

    This isn’t a contest. There’s nothing at stake here, and I’d be quite willing to continue discussions once they’ve regained at least a modicum of civility.

  • Mike Friesen

    What you fail to realize is there is something at stake here and that is the salvation of everyone who reads this. I am not a raving lunatic. I just believe that if you believe in something stand up for it withall your heart. This is not a contest between men. It is between satan and God. I happen to be the one on Gods side. You are either for Him or against Him. I am sorry you feel the way you do. Is that a decent modicum of civility?

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ wolter

    so, as you said, dont let you fall into irrational arguments and reply to mine. First read my interventions (this is also for you Daniel, and all Dawkins followers reading this), then tell me: Why annoys you so much the idea of a god caring of its creation? Or, in other words, why do you think that life cannot have a purpose, a direction, maybe trascendent? In what point you think it doesnt fit with what we call “reality”?

    I’m not saying that without this purpose everything would crumble; only that maybe it is an idea that matches the reality better than others, in a more satisfying way.

    Sorry again for my poor expression and syntax.

  • Wolter

    > so, as you said, dont let you fall into irrational arguments and reply to mine.

    Sure thing.

    > Why annoys you so much the idea of a god caring of its creation?

    Absolutely nothing.

    > Or, in other words, why do you think that life cannot have a purpose, a direction, maybe trascendent?

    Were any proof of such a thing brought forth, I would examine it and adjust my beliefs accordingly.

    > In what point you think it doesnt fit with what we call “reality”?

    Basically, I am reluctant to believe something that has no solid evidence to back it up. I mean, how can I know that a particular religion is not just something made up? Where are the facts that I can weigh in a rational fashion so as to come to a solid conclusion?

    What makes one idea more meritorious than another is the evidence backing it.

    > only that maybe it is an idea that matches the reality better than others, in a more satisfying way.

    Indeed it is a perfectly valid idea, but unless there is some compelling evidence to support it, I will probably pay it little heed.

  • Wolter

    @Mike

    That’s fine, and I’m glad that you stand up for what you believe in. But quite frankly, you’re only going to convince others of this massive plot against all humanity in the following fashions:

    1. Provide VERY compelling evidence to support your claim. This will get the thinkers on board.

    2. Appeal to peoples’ emotions. This will get a good chunk of the non-thinkers on board.

    3. Appeal to peoples’ insecurities. This will get a good chunk of the sick on board.

    4. Get them young, before they have a fully developed sense of reason.

  • Mike Friesen

    Congratulations Walter. You have told me to do exactly what the bible would have me to do. You have done this before. That is what every man and womans job as a God loving Christian is supposed to do. If you keep it up we might just have a job for you. Thanks for proving my point.
    Oh and the massive plot against humanity you speak of is not to harm them but to save them. Christianity isn’t about taking all the fun out of life but rather giving you more life to have fun in.

    Thanks again

  • Wolter

    > Congratulations Walter. You have told me to do exactly what the bible would have me to do.

    Yes. In modern parlance we call it brainwashing.

    > Oh and the massive plot against humanity you speak of is not to harm them but to save them.

    Perhaps we are viewing it from a different aspect, then. The more common narrative is that everyone who doesn’t believe the story will burn for ever and ever in the burning pits of hell, and that the evil one is doing his best to keep people from believing it.

    And so we stand in the midst of this urgency to snatch up as many people as possible lest they fall victim to an angry god with super powers who sees you when you’re sleeping, and knows when you’re awake.

    When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. I use reason, not emotion, to guide me through the turbulent waters of reality.

  • Mike Friesen

    Do you quote stuff from the bible to argue your point all the time or just when you run out of things to say???
    What is this parlance you speak of??
    You know the truth why do you refuse to accept it? What good is educating yourself if you let it go to waste?

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ wolter

    as I said before, we will always be ignorant in comparison to an imaginary (?) all-knowing being or thing, so we are forced to guess the main income of information that we have to manage in our ordinary life. So don’t pretend to have rationality as your only guide for knowing the universe.

    Also, think that evidences are everywhere, and always. The problem is that humanity havent had the right tools to notice them. Let’s say, the telescope. Until Galileo dind’t build one, the evidences were invisible for reason. They could be reached only by intuition (as Copernicus, e.g., did, and other earlier heliocentrist theorics). A large part of the history of science is proving facts that were felt by poets thousands of years before.

    tl;dr Don’t understimate intuition. :P

    The only problem that I see with your point of view, which sometimes seem to be near to the common internet atheist proselitism, is that you easily blame the religion for things that are just a result of human ignorance and fear. That may mislead you in the right consideration of certain matters of first importance.

  • http://www.out-of-order.ca bp

    you know, I’m really tired of christian’s and moslems ruining it for the rest of us. Just because they have a flawed theology, doesn’t mean that other, more reasonable God fearing people should be labeled along with them.

  • Wolter

    > Do you quote stuff from the bible to argue your point all the time or just when you run out of things to say???

    Actually, it’s a somewhat novel approach to argument. It’s called “wit”.

    > What is this parlance you speak of??

    par·lance (pärlns):
    A particular manner of speaking; idiom: legal parlance.

    > You know the truth why do you refuse to accept it?

    Who says this story is true? What evidence is there to support it? I would do myself a great disservice to believe without evidence.

  • Mike Friesen

    So you are a Christian when it is conveniant?

  • Wolter

    > as I said before, we will always be ignorant in comparison to an imaginary (?) all-knowing being or thing, so we are forced to guess the main income of information that we have to manage in our ordinary life. So don’t pretend to have rationality as your only guide for knowing the universe.

    I’m hard pressed to think of anything I believe in that is not grounded in rationality… Can you name some examples?

    > Also, think that evidences are everywhere, and always. The problem is that humanity havent had the right tools to notice them.

    This seems like a bit of a stretch… If that were indeed the case, how could you differentiate between your religion and another one? How could you possibly decide which (if any) is right if you’re not allowed to see the evidence?

    > A large part of the history of science is proving facts that were felt by poets thousands of years before.

    And a significantly larger amount of poetry describes things that simply are not, and never were.

    > Don’t understimate intuition.

    The same intuition that gave us lobotomies, astrology, feng shui, aryan supremacy, and the Spanish Inquisition?

    > you easily blame the religion for things that are just a result of human ignorance and fear.

    At what point did I blame something on religion?

  • Wolter

    > So you are a Christian when it is conveniant?

    I’m not a christian at all.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    >I’m hard pressed to think of anything I believe in that is not grounded in rationality… Can you name some examples?

    Think about the nature of time-space and do you interact with it and what existence is, if it is something.

    > At what point did I blame something on religion?

    > Religion is bad because it has been demonstrated to be detrimental to society.

    Here.

    >And a significantly larger amount of poetry describes things that simply are not, and never were.

    Obviously we’ve got different views on the nature and function of poetry.

    > how could you differentiate between your religion and another one?

    since I do believe in life, I’m ok with every religion that says “You shall not kill”

    > The same intuition that gave us lobotomies, astrology, feng shui, aryan supremacy, and the Spanish Inquisition?

    don’t mix up intuition with planned, evil, animal interests. Let’s forget empty ideas and talk about richful ones, ok?

  • Wolter

    > Think about the nature of time-space and do you interact with it and what existence is, if it is something.

    While the nature of space-time and our interaction with it makes for fascinating discussion, I have no solid opinion on the matter, and it does not enter into my daily life.

    > At what point did I blame something on religion?
    >
    >> Religion is bad because it has been demonstrated to be detrimental to society.
    >
    >Here.

    Oh yes. I should probably back that up:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

    > Obviously we’ve got different views on the nature and function of poetry.

    Regardless of our views on poetry, the point of all this is that anyone can posit a hypothesis. However, a hypothesis cannot transform into a theory until there are testable conditions that would prove it false. And even as a theory, it wouldn’t gain much traction without a significant amount of evidence to back it up.

    > > how could you differentiate between your religion and another one?
    >
    > since I do believe in life, I’m ok with every religion that says “You shall not kill”

    So if I read this correctly, you are willing to believe a religion that is to your personal liking, and do not feel the need to test whether it is true or simply something made up?

    As a side note, no judaic religion says “you shall not kill”. Rather they say “do not commit murder”. For Yahweh has on a number of occasions ordered his people to do genocide and mass killings.

    > > The same intuition that gave us lobotomies, astrology, feng shui, aryan supremacy, and the Spanish Inquisition?
    >
    > don’t mix up intuition with planned, evil, animal interests. Let’s forget empty ideas and talk about richful ones, ok?

    I don’t really think that astrology or feng shui are evil…
    The point I’m trying to make is: intuition is no substitute for doing your homework. Gottlieb Burckhardt was thoroughly convinced that he was helping his patients by removing portions of their brain. While his intuition told him that it must work, the reality is that he committed an atrocity, and could have avoided it altogether if he’d only stopped to invoke a rational process that tested his hypothesis.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    > While the nature of space-time and our interaction with it makes for fascinating discussion,…, and it does not enter into my daily life.

    Well, as long as you do exist, it obviously does, despite the fact that you prefer not to deal with it.

    > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

    I won’t take that study as a proof of what you say. I could instead think that americans are worshipping a wrong god.

    >So if I read this correctly, you are willing to believe a religion that is to your personal liking, and do not feel the need to test whether it is true or simply something made up?

    Absolutely not. I take life, with all that it implies, as a supreme value, and anything that follows it, the right party.

    >For Yahweh has on a number of occasions ordered his people to do genocide and mass killings.

    The problem of living -correct me if you aren’t- in the country of mormons and Jehova’s witnesses: you are ready to take literally every part of the old testament. Btw I never said that one was the right and definitive religion.

    Love is a fact -not only love amongst humans but also the one that moves the universe-, and true religion only should speak about that.

    I don’t know you -nice to meet you!-, i don’t want to convince you, I just say that religions usually are harmless, what is dangerous is ignorance, and that may be found in all humans, specially internet atheists :)

  • Mike Friesen

    Wolter, are you actually the evil Daniel trying to get into hell?? I think you and daniel are actually one in the same.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    And don’t mix up rationalism with scientific thought and positivism. You would refuse the value of metaphors, despite their capability to enlighten vast fields of human condition.

  • Wolter

    > Well, as long as you do exist, it obviously does, despite the fact that you prefer not to deal with it.

    It’s not that I prefer not to deal with it; It just doesn’t have any bearing in my day-to-day life, and there is no serious consequence to ignoring it. When I have idle time, I like to play with it.

    > you are ready to take literally every part of the old testament.

    No, but I generally take literally a number of the historical writings in the Pentateuch.

    > I just say that religions usually are harmless

    Religions are only harmless if they are powerless. Once they gain power, their dogma usurps reason.

    > And don’t mix up rationalism with scientific thought and positivism. You would refuse the value of metaphors, despite their capability to enlighten vast fields of human condition.

    Who says I refuse the value of metaphors? They are an effective tool for communicating a ideas. They are not a replacement for a rational process.

  • Wolter

    > Wolter, are you actually the evil Daniel trying to get into hell?? I think you and daniel are actually one in the same.

    We are entirely different human beings, but feel free to believe what you will.

  • Mike Friesen

    dear stavrogin, What!!!!????

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    >It just doesn’t have any bearing in my day-to-day life, and there is no serious consequence to ignoring it.

    I’d say that the more you are unaware of your situation, the more possible you’re gonna end messed up; so it has serious consequences.

    let’s recommend something to read and say goodnight: somewhere in the middle of the Brothers Karamazov there’s a story about a monk that have to walk for miles… it is somehow related with relations between power and religion.

    I’m too tired. Btw that’s me es youtube com
    watch?v=ZAY0nmg0af8

  • Wolter

    > I’d say that the more you are unaware of your situation, the more possible you’re gonna end messed up; so it has serious consequences.

    Of course. There’s always a possibility that something you are ignorant of will cause harm.
    However, there is a much greater probability of doing harm when you believe something without testing it for validity.

    You’re quite skilled on the guitar, btw.

  • Swampmaster

    @icefire
    “We all die that is a fact but not all want to die some want to live for various reasons,and so have a need and therefore put their faith in someone or something that can provide that.

    Of all the religions i have looked at ,only Jesus wrote a tutorial on defeating death both by explaining first and playing it out.
    Jesus says believe in me and you will live, Dies,Rises up and joins His Father in Heaven. ”

    What I understand from this is that you chose to stick with the first religion that offered you a chance not to die. I find it sad, personally, to see someone arbitrarily choose a method of life out of fear.

    I am not an especially brave man, and I do not wish to die. In fact, my greatest wish would be to live forever or to benefit from omniscience, as my supreme quality is curiosity: I wish to know what hapenned, what is hapenning and what will happen in the world. But the fact that I wish this does not mean that I blind myself in following the first prophet who claims he can make it come true without proof. For another one of my qualities is honesty, and doing this would be dishonest to myself.

    If you are happy with your life choices and do not try to force others into them, then I can only respect your choice. But I know that it is not something I could do myself…

  • http://www.pinksy.co.uk/ Pinksy

    This has to be one of the most entertaining threads I have ever read! It certainly made my tube travels seem a lot shorter today!

  • icefire

    @Swampmaster

    “What I understand from this is that you chose to stick with the first religion that offered you a chance not to die. I find it sad, personally, to see someone arbitrarily choose a method of life out of fear. ”

    It’s not out of fear, it’s the whole concept of the afterlife id love to be part of but realistically a fairy tale until i got into some situations where i truly believed i would die and i called out to Jesus and i believed i would be ok.It’s pretty hard to explain and sounds pretty lame but true. If i didn’t would i be dead? am i just lucky? i dont know but to me that is what faith is. I dont have the data to be able to evaluate each and every situation to see if God exists so im in a bit of a catch 22.I cant deny it was God either until proof is available or God prove’s it to me cause it’s clear He doesnt work that way.

    “If you are happy with your life choices and do not try to force others into them, then I can only respect your choice. But I know that it is not something I could do myself…”

    i agree completely it has to only be about choice otherwise my justification to stand infront of God if He exists falls apart and i become a hypocrite.
    I don’t condone forced religion on anyone from children to apostacy to intimmadation.That’s not what i believe Jesus’s taught. And unfortuanately it’s the opposite to what some Christians live by. To me Jesus reached out to the world and said take my hand if you want it.All it required was belief in Jesus and grace from God. I cant force anyone to do that but myself.

  • icefire

    @Wolter
    >”What you believe is of no consequence to the universe.
    >You can believe that you are free of gravity, but that won’t >save you if you fall from a cliff.
    >You can believe that you are free of the need for air, but that >won’t save you if you get dragged away by an undercurrent.
    >You can believe that the Newtonian laws don’t apply to you, >but that won’t stop the truck from smacking into you and >killing you as you confidently walk in front of it.”

    True, while i am alive but the laws of nature you mentioned ?here all become irrelevant if God did create the laws of the universe.gravity,air inertia etc all things we experience or observe but invisible.If God is a pesonal force im sure some would feel His presence and thus reason for faith.

    >You can believe that you have a soul that lives on, but that >won’t make it real any more than believing in Santa Claus or >Vishnu or John Frum will make them real.

    Santa isn’t real???? haha.

    @Mike Friesen

    Mike my brother im a little disspointed.Like you know iron sharpens iron so here’s my advice.

    >I truly believe we were brought here to talk to you and the >lost saints like you

    Yes the great commision entails that we talk about Jesus and what He has done . By Wolter’s reply to this comment you should have dusted your sandles like the diciple’s did when people didn’t want to hear their message. If daniel is a Christian this is not the place to say something like that it sounds abrasive with your overall tone.Almost like a mother disiplining her child infront of his friends.

    >What if there was a weak soul that stumbled across this >sight and read all the arguments against His existence and >believed them. Then this same person drives to a friends >house but gets into a wreck and dies

    You know God doesn’t work that way.If He did neither of us would have God’s grace. We choose to accept God but that isn’t why we get into heaven.It’s grace and mercy and if God willed no weak soul would even read this post nonless die right after reading it .that’s cruel.

    I think you have belief and faith mixed up. Belief comes from the mind, you believe something from reason.Faith is based on belief but isnt belief alone. my belief that a chair is strong enough to hold me doesnt mean it will, i sit down because of faith in that chair. this isn’t faith- does it mean before he died he didn’t call out to Jesus because his friends told him otherwise?

    > Now if you don’t mind I will pray for you and hopefully we >can talk later when you have some idea of what is going on.

    I wouln’t say that to someone trying to convince him in Jesus.
    say that back to yourself does it sound loving?wolter didnt think so below.

    Wolter’s reply>
    (Absolutely beautiful. A full insult cleverly cloaked in pious )(language. You have done your god proud.)

    > Son, we know other things that only Christians who study >the bible and pray for guidence would know.

    >I speak for God and Jesus and all that is in heaven. You >speak for a man that is scared and lost. Faith does not need >evidence. Faith is faith.

    Im sorry if im coming off strong, im merely trying to show you it from my perspective. This is why people are against Christians because of responses like these.Im a Christian but im also weak and sinfull, “Christian” isn’t a name badge i can wear around and be proud of, it means follower of Christ.No one can speak for God or Jesus except the Holy Spirit.

    Like you know our relationship with God is extremely sensitive and at times has lots of emotion.As soon as emotions come into the picture reason goes out the window.That is why we need to humble ourselves.And if you care for daniel- pray silently for him it profits you nor him nothing proclaiming it.

    in the end of the day we have to pray and praise God with the same tongue we use to talk to other people.Like you many have made their choices regardless of the evidence that is present or absent.It doesn’t mean we cant talk about religion and it’s opression which exists – why is why im sure many are here on this post. we have no room to judge anyone as we will only condem ourselves.

  • Wolter

    > If God is a pesonal force im sure some would feel His presence and thus reason for faith.

    Probably. But if Yahweh is indeed a myth, then the personal feelings people get are entirely self-generated.
    May animist religions incorporate this “personal force” when they commune with the animal spirits. Zen Buddhists feel a calm serenity as they approach a state of enlightenment. Muslims feel a closeness to Allah as they pray for hours each day. And yet all three of them cannot be correct. Indeed, it could very well be that none of them are correct. The mind is a tricky thing with its different levels of evolved consciousness built on top of each other.

    The point I’m making is that this feeling can exist with or without gods or the supernatural. In fact, it has been studied extensively in various psychological experiments (unfortunately, I don’t have any links handy anymore or I’d share them, but a quick google search would likely uncover them).

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ Wolter

    I’m sorry for leaving the conversation, but I believed it was time to review what we’ve said, to take another direction on the argument. However, this would take some time and effort, so maybe tomorrow heh.

    > The point I’m making is that this feeling can exist with or without gods or the supernatural.

    Existence is no such a stable category as to prove it with studies. The point here is that we all have got a similar concept about something trascendent. I see some advantadges in calling it God, for it is a richful metaphor. I don’t mind if you refer to it with another words, whichever you choose. I just felt the benefits of calling it this way and want to show them if anyone requests.

    Things aren’t something until you name them. This also means that from the moment you name something it has got some existence, even in the same level than evident things.

    I’m intrigued about your beliefs, I mean, are they completely particular of yours, or are they a known confession?

  • Wolter

    > Things aren’t something until you name them. This also means that from the moment you name something it has got some existence, even in the same level than evident things.

    Things that are real exist whether we have named them or not. Pluto didn’t simply spring into existence when someone peered through a telescope and named it.
    Things that are not real can only exist within the minds of those who imagine them, but even they don’t need a name in order to exist. Names are mnemonics we use to manage ideas and concepts, real or otherwise.

    > I’m intrigued about your beliefs, I mean, are they completely particular of yours, or are they a known confession?

    I’m not sure what you mean by “known confession”, but I do not choose to believe simply because others do, nor do I allow others to constrain my thoughts.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ Wolter

    >but I do not choose to believe simply because others do, nor do I allow others to constrain my thoughts.

    neither do I, and I hope not to be the one who’s trying to do such a thing (constrani your thoughts) on you. But, if you don’t care, please answer, which is your religion, your spiritual perspective, or whatsoever?

  • Wolter

    What I meant is that I do not blindly follow another’s philosophy, nor do I keep my beliefs constrained within another’s conceptual framework. I will, however, listen to other perspectives, examine them, and then either reject, incorporate, or leave them for future consideration.

    As for religion, I do not follow any. My spiritual perspective is that I have yet to see any real evidence to support the supernatural.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ Wolter

    I don’t know why you obstinate on calling “supernatural” phenomenons that are present in every man, such as conscience or trascendece. And I mention them without any will of christianizing them.

  • Wolter

    I was under the impression that we were still talking about the supernatural. With terms such as “god”, “religion”, and “spirituality” being bandied about, I was unaware of the shift.
    So which natural phenomena were you referring to?

    Also, are you referring to Kantian transcendence, classical transcendence (unity, goodness, and all that), or theological transcendence?

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    classical trascendence, the trinity goodness-truth-beauty, I guess, although I’m a bit ignorant about this.

    I think that religion or god aren’t supernatural notions, and that removing them you’d undo much work that has been done to explain what a human is and what does it mean his activity. You can answer that questions without that concepts, but you have to put something valuable on the table in their place, otherwise, I won’t believe what you said before about the value of your own reason’s achievements.

  • Wolter

    > I think that religion or god aren’t supernatural notions

    Sorry, but religion and god are all about the supernatural:

    su·per·nat·u·ral \ˌsü-pər-ˈna-chə-rəl, -ˈnach-rəl\

    1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe ; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
    2 a: departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b: attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

    > and that removing them you’d undo much work that has been done to explain what a human is and what does it mean his activity.

    Really? There’s been a lot of psychological research done that helps explain how humans work. What makes religion so essential to the process?

    > You can answer that questions without that concepts, but you have to put something valuable on the table in their place

    What would make that something valuable? By what measure do you calculate its value?

    > otherwise, I won’t believe what you said before about the value of your own reason’s achievements.

    You don’t have to believe anything I say at all. The value of my achievements are not determined by you.

  • adchick

    Daniel: I’m so happy to have found your blog and will read it thoroughly. My daughter, 26 and an alcoholic, has now become addicted to Jesus. It’s like she’s had a big glass of the koolaid. It’s frightening to see. I’m hoping your blog will help me understand this. They tithe to their Non-denominational Christian church but have trouble making their utility bills. Both she and her husband have Masters Degrees, yet choose to work in low paying religious work. It boggles my mind and has put a huge divide in our relationship. I’m hoping your blog will help me understand this myopic thinking. Thank you for bringing a sensibility to the forefront.

  • Wolter

    @adchick

    Here is some advice: Be supportive.

    What your daughter needs most of all from her mother is her support and friendship, and a display of love that transcends ideological differences.

    You can’t change her mind; she can only change hers of her own will. And if you push her, you will only manage to push her away.
    Understand that tithing and religious work are part of the church doctrine, and that your daughter believes in them fully, to the point that she does it even when her own bills are not getting paid as a result. That shows a strong sense of faithfulness and dedication that should be honored, even if it is misplaced. She works, believing fully that her god will take care of her regardless of what the real world situation looks like. And in general, things do tend to turn out not-too-bad for most people (even if it takes some bailing out to make it such), so it’s not really so dangerous as one would first imagine (except for the lost potential, but that really is her prerogative).

    She is an adult now. She needs to feel like she is making her own decisions, and must make her own mistakes in life. Your job now is to be there for her. If you honor her decisions, she will seek your counsel.

  • professoryackle

    ARGUMENT FROM DRACULA
    1) Everyone is afraid of Dracula
    2) (Therefore, Dracula is afraid of Dracula)
    3) Dracula is afraid of no one but me
    4) Therefore I am Dracula, Bwa-ha-ha-HA!
    5) Therefore, Dracula exists.
    6) By substitution, I lied, I’m not really Dracula, I prefer to be called GOD.
    7) Therefore, God exists.

    Mathematically, there is nothing wrong with the above argument (the same could be said for some of the arguments above and/or at godlessgeeks.) For an argument to be logically correct it need not follow that the individual statements are actually true. Clearly I am not, nor ever have been, Dracula. I love garlic, honest. No – I was God all along.

  • http://answers.net.nz mark purchase

    Hi Daniel

    Just been reading your ‘unreasonable faith’. I agree your faith is just that. You are asking people to believe nothing exploded and from nothing came everything. Tell me, what is in nothing to make nothing turn into everything? That’s crazy’.

    You say that you “decided truth was more important than (your) current beliefs”. Then what is truth? If there’s no God there is no such thing as truth, just opinion. If you really believe atheistic evolution is sure, you would know there is no way of knowing your brain has evolved enough to know what is true.

    In REAL evolution theory there is no such thing as freedom to “decide” anything. You are just chemicals, upbringing, culture and animal.

    3 reasons your faith is unreasonable.

    (1) There is a God. There is no doubt, the evidence is convincing -
    http://answers.net.nz/Other/atheis1.htm

    While you and a few ‘self-professed’ atheists might put up smoke and mirrors, this point sinks your website. Think for a moment, if there is a God, your website becomes a nonsense.

    (2) The Bible is true. There are many intelligent, expert scientists who ague the creation model is better than Darwinian evolution. Yes Ph.D’s in every field reject evolution -
    http://answers.net.nz/Evolution/Gre.Sci..htm

    The bible is true in what it records and the genuine article. This makes your website a nonsense.

    (3) And the Christian ethic is better by far. Human life becomes valuable and meaningful. There are standards of right and wrong. Nothing can replace this fact. Your website has no explanation to the big questions of life and neither can it. It would be better to promote those old Christian values of honesty, truth, justice, and freedom than rubbish Christianity.

    So unlike Daniel, I haven’t found a reason for throwing away what I KNOW is true to embrace what I know is not true. The fact is, people don’t ignore or reject God because science or reason requires it, but because they want to. “They did not like to retain God in their knowledge…” (see Rom.1:19-28).

    People if you disagree, write to me, [not poor old Daniel] mpp@xtra.co.nz Mark at http://www.answers.net.nz

  • Wolter

    Hoo boy…

    > If there’s no God there is no such thing as truth, just opinion.

    Says who? If you want to argue logically, you’ll have to do more than conjecture.

    > If you really believe atheistic evolution is sure, you would know there is no way of knowing your brain has evolved enough to know what is true.

    Really? What’s 2+2? What happens when you drop an iron ball and a feather from the same height on the moon?

    > In REAL evolution theory there is no such thing as freedom to “decide” anything. You are just chemicals, upbringing, culture and animal.

    What makes you so sure that chemicals, upbringing, culture and animal makes people incapable of deciding something?

    > (1) There is a God. There is no doubt, the evidence is convincing -

    There might very well be convincing evidence, but you haven’t presented any. I’ve read your dissertation in the link provided and am very disappointed.
    You start off on the wrong track by misleading the reader as to the nature of “nothing” in your “Cosmological argument”. It takes very little digging to glean an understanding of the scientific meaning of “nothing”, but you’ve chosen instead to use the common definition in order to muddy the waters. That is either deliberate deception or incredibly sloppy work.
    You then go on to assert that your god is the “first cause”, presenting once again no evidence to support your claim. This is called conjecture.

    Your Teleological argument is the same old tired argument that theologists bring to the table every time. You start with the tautology of “Everything complex must have a designer. Everybody knows that!”, and it all goes downhill from there. I could waste time deconstructing this argument, but I and many others have done it many, many times over and quite frankly I’m tired of it. I’ll just post a link instead: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5MXTBGcyNuc&feature=channel

    Your “Anthropological argument” is laughable, and shows that you know virtually nothing on the subject. If you did, you’d know that animals have emotions, express love and affection, cry, express joy, get depressed, etc.
    You might believe that man has no value outside of a god-universe, but that most certainly doesn’t make you right; It only proves that you are too afraid to live without a crutch.
    Once again, a lot of prose with no proofs.

    The “Ontological Argument”… Oh my. More conjecture and tautology. I especially liked your “man has an intuition about ‘a God’. Intuition is an understanding and knowledge without the process of reasoning or dependant on IQ or education.” Really classy. Did you know that intuition is what guided Hitler in his firm belief that the Jews were inferior beings, and must be expunged from Germany? He needed no proof; he KNEW that they were inferior.

    And if you’re going to throw out quotes by famous people, PLEASE make sure they actually support your position, or at the very least don’t take them out of context. The full text to the Albert Einstein quote is available at http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/library/ae_scire.htm

    If you take the time to read it, you’ll realize that he is arguing AGAINST your kind of god, and specifically AGAINST the argument you quoted him to support.

    I could go on, but I hardly see the point.

  • sam

    this life is such a mystery to me!

    are any of you familiar with the book “the 12th planet” ? http://www.sitchin.com
    this is an alternate theory of scriptures-old testament
    the gods-not god–were actually space people who came to our planet–

  • marcion

    “175. ARGUMENT FROM STAR TREK
    (1) You will be assimilated.
    (2) All your salvations [are] belong to us.
    (3) Resistance is futile.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.”

    HAHAHAHAHA! Lol. Has to be one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on the Internet! “All your salvations [are] belong to us.”

  • damental

    Ok so I wouldn’t necessarily call myself a “Christian”, partly because of the baggage it carries but I would call myself a follower of Christ.
    The main scientific argument that has had no answer as far as I know is that they have not come up with a reasonable theory for what preceded the big bang. The current consensus in science is that in the very beginning there was a microscopic point containing infinite energy which then inflated and created the big bang. Where did that single point of infinite energy come from? Nothing?
    I would rather believe in a God that exists outside of time and space that predates and out dates time because he created it because he wanted to.
    The other problem with the scientific perspective is that if offers no purpose for our existence other than the propagation of our genes. Why is there a beautiful, complex world and universe is just as important a question as how it got here. Science has not answered the question of why the universe bothers to exist.
    Even if I considered myself an agnostic which I have been close to sometimes, I would still have to believe in a creator. Evolution is trivial to me. If it happened, that’s fine. So God used evolution to create his world in the same way he uses random chance to work in the world now.

  • Mike Friesen

    I can’t believe you guys are still going on about this. Jesus lives. When you are dead It will be to late. Ha! Ha for you.

  • Floyder

    That Ha! Ha! from Mike Friesen is so uber revealing.

  • Pamela

    Love this blog! Glad I found it today. And I am laughing until coffee comes out my nose at your excerpts on this page. hehehe!

  • Pingback: Dog dog I see dog « Mrs Slocombe regrets

  • Ariel

    Some of those are mildly funny, but so many of them could equally be applied to the atheist camp that it automaticlaly disqualifies any hint of irony.

    228. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
    (1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
    (2) Therefore the Bible is true.
    (3) The Bible says God exists.
    (4) Therefore, God exist.

    228. ARGUMENT FROM THE SCIENCE (II)
    (1) The SCIENCE says the SCIENCE is true.
    (2) Therefore the SCIENCE is true.
    (3) The SCIENCE says God does not exist.
    (4) Therefore, God does not exist.

    165. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
    (1) That’s really cool.
    (2) God must have done that.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

    165. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
    (1) That’s really cool.
    (2) NATURAL SELECTION must have done that.
    (3) Therefore, God does not exist.

    100. ARGUMENT FROM PRAYER
    (1) God exists.
    (2) [Atheist makes counterarguments.]
    (3) You have my prayers.

    100. ARGUMENT FROM RICHARD DAWKINS
    (1) God does not exist.
    (2) [Theist makes counterarguments.]
    (3)You are a wicked, reason-hating-crusading-moronic-closed-minded philistine and you must be burned at the stake for your intolerance.

    139. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (II)
    (1) God, if you exist, please give me absolutely no sign.
    (2)
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

    139. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (II)
    (1) God, you don’t exist. Since you don’t exist, don’t bother giving me a sign.
    (2)
    (3) Therefore, God does not exist.

    It goes on.

    Oh right, and

    666.ARGUMENT FROM WE’RE WITTIER THAN YOU
    (1)All your argumentz r really dumb and stuff
    (2)We make fun of ur arguments relly funneh
    (3)Therefore, God does not exist.

  • Wolter

    | 228. ARGUMENT FROM THE SCIENCE (II)
    | (1) The SCIENCE says the SCIENCE is true.
    | (2) Therefore the SCIENCE is true.
    | (3) The SCIENCE says God does not exist.
    | (4) Therefore, God does not exist.

    Science does not say that science is true (because science is a process, not a fact).
    Science does not say that God does not exist. It can, however, be applied in order to show that your god is not much more likely to exist than other gods.

    | 165. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
    | (1) That’s really cool.
    | (2) NATURAL SELECTION must have done that.
    | (3) Therefore, God does not exist.

    Sorry, not the same argument. Not even close.
    Almost every discussion with a christian eventually involves the “this is so complicated and cool that only a superior intelligence like my god could have done it.”
    Here’s how it really goes:
    (1) That’s really cool.
    (2) Here’s a shitload of evidence that it’s natural selection.
    (3) Therefore, it’s most likely natural selection.

    | 100. ARGUMENT FROM RICHARD DAWKINS
    | (1) God does not exist.
    | (2) [Theist makes counterarguments.]
    | (3)You are a wicked, reason-hating-crusading-moronic-closed-minded philistine and you must be burned at the stake for your intolerance.

    Hmm. I must have missed that episode.

    | 139. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (II)
    | (1) God, you don’t exist. Since you don’t exist, don’t bother giving me a sign.
    | (2)
    | (3) Therefore, God does not exist.

    Actually, it goes: If you want to make an extraordinary claim, have some extraordinary evidence to back it up. Otherwise get in line behind Buddha, Allah, John Frum, Vishnu, Zeus and the rest of them.

    | 666.ARGUMENT FROM WE’RE WITTIER THAN YOU
    | (1)All your argumentz r really dumb and stuff
    | (2)We make fun of ur arguments relly funneh
    | (3)Therefore, God does not exist.

    Actually I believe it goes:
    (3) Therefore, you’re not smart enough to be convincing.

  • http://twitter.com/Hetty4Christ hetty4christ

    WOW…I will be praying for you..I have been in both lives..and I will never leave my faith in Jesus Christ for any other faith-or lack there of. It leaves such a hole in your heart…and you are always needing more. This blogging can perhaps fill it-venting for a while…but true faith in Jesus-not cover to cover reading of the Bible is what the answer is in life. I can go down my lists of comparisons of no God-to with Jesus-and it is day and not miracles. And I won’t ever lose that-for anything. Just like when the devil was tempting Jesus 3 times-dare Him to bow to Satan..or any cult, superstition or lack of Christ-I would rather die-go to Heaven and be with my Lord and Savior any day.
    He loves you still today…and will keep waiting-unless you finally draw big curtains…

    Praying for you-you are a kind person…had Jesus practice there!

    In His Grip,
    Hetty Siebens

    Jeremiah 1:4-5 Now the Word of the LORD came to me saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”-ESV

    Romans 10:9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.-ESV

    James 4: 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you.-ESV

    1 Peter 1: 8-9
    You love Him even though you have never seen Him. Though you do not see Him, you TRUST Him; and even now you are happy with a glorious, inexpressible joy. Your reward for trusting Him will be the salvation of your souls.-NLT

    Colossians 2:8-10 Don’t let anyone lead you astray with empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the evil powers of this world, and not from Christ. For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body, and you are complete through your union with Christ. He is the Lord over every ruler and authority in the universe.

    Romans 14:1 Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong.

    He loves you-always..unconditionally. :) Anyone who blieves in Him will not be disappointed!

    • Joshua

      It leaves such a hole in your heart. This is true. When you become an atheist, it’s like learning that Santa isn’t real. Sure, it’s heartbreaking at the time, but soon enough, you get over it. After a while, you begin to realize how silly you were, believing in such ridiculous things! I have come to terms with this world, and the truth of it all. There is no god, no matter how much you want to deny it. I know it sucks, that there’s no magic man in the sky, but you know what? You’ll just have to deal with it. There is no god to protect us from ourselves. Humans are bringing about their own downfall with their greed and evil. I hate the human race. We are committing suicide, and no magic man will save us. Don’t be childish. You want to believe it, so you do. For some of us, with strong will and a will to learn, who can’t simply do that. Ignorance is bliss. I wish I was stupid enough to believe in some floating wizard, but I simply can’t bring myself to believe such nonsense anymore. I hope you accept the truth and move on.

  • Wolter

    Oh yes, we were missing the bible basher input. Thanks for making this a complete thread.

  • thesciphishow

    Hi LRA,

    You toss out an interesting challenge.

    “There is VERY LITTLE, I repeat VERY LITTLE historical fact in the bible that has been proven (and not for lack of people trying– people have been desperate to prove the bible true for hundreds of years). It is a mythological book (like Homer’s Odyssey). Now that CAN be proven.”

    I gather you actually believe this, but I’m not sure who you are using as a source. The Bible has been shown correct on archeological claims a number of time when the skeptics have claimed it was in error. It is interesting that you would compare it to Homer’s Odyssey when the texts are not even remotely comparable. You are making a serious category mistake trying to make a claim like that, on the level of “What does blue taste like ?”.

    However, what interests me is what you actually have in mind when you say something like,

    “Prove it. You give me ONE shred of VERIFIABLE evidence to ANY of your claims. JUST ONE. And QUOTING THE BIBLE DOESN’T COUNT”

    What in your mind would count as “verifiable evidence”? I suspect the answer is “nothing” and that anything that was offered would just be rejected by you as insufficient. That or you would demand evidence that could not even conceivably exist and then claim to be vindicated.

    Still, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. What would actually count as evidence that you would accept ? With a comparable example.

    I guess you could demand something like video footage from a time traveler of the event as the only acceptable “verifiable evidence” but that would just confirm that you are not a reasonable person.

    So, please, what would count as evidence with a relevant example of something that meets the standard you set ?

  • thesciphishow

    Hi reckoner,

    Interesting comment

    “In the end, it all comes down to a very personal choice: critical thinking or blind faith”

    You are right on this score. Unfortunately in my experience it is people that most loudly trumpet claims to “critical thinking” that have the blindest of faith. It is disappointing really.

    I mean, look at someone who trumpets “critical thinking” like Richard Dawkins and then he writes drivel like “The God Delusion”. Such a depressing example of modern pseudo-intellectualism that it is just embarrassing. Those it does nicely indicate how blind and unthinking a persons dogmatism can be.

  • GromMom1

    What definitive proof do you have that God does NOT exist? (Lack of evidence does not count as you can not be certain that you have considered all possible sources and evidence.)

  • Wolter

    Here’s a good one:

    1) We’ve found dinosaur bones that scientists date back millions of years.
    2) The bible says that the earth was created 6000 years ago.
    3) The bible is the Truth.
    4) Therefore, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/what-happened-to-the-dinosaurs

  • Michael

    In my experience, Christians seem to think of themselves as outside or beyond religion when they are anything but.

    Main Entry:
    re·li·gion
    Pronunciation:
    \ri-ˈli-jən\
    Function:
    noun
    Etymology:
    Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
    Date:
    13th century
    1 a: the state of a religious b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
    2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
    3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
    4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
    — re·li·gion·less adjective

    Christians seem to make up there own definition.

    When you ask for evidence, Christians quote the Bible (lol) and claim that there were eyewitnesses (hardly evidence at all). Others use the argument that the universe is so complex and amazing that God must have been “behind the curtains” so to speak.

    Others claim personal experiences that prove Christ is real, but Muslims claim to experience Muhammad/miracles etc., as do Scientologists claim to “feel” Thetans.

    This can only mean that:

    1. One is right and the others are delusional
    2. None of them are right.

    I have 2 questions for Christians:

    1. What evidence do you have that proves Christ and the Christian God are real? (besides subjective personal experience that every other religion includes, and besides quoting the Bible or believe on the basis that it is the most popular book)

    2. Do you realize that your beliefs are arbitrary due to the location and family you were born into?

    If you were born in Iraq you would MOST likely be a Muslim, India a Hindu, Ancient Greece – Greek Mythology, etc.

    If you claim that no matter where you were born you would “instinctively” gravitate towards Christianity is absurd.

    Please answer these thoroughly.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    I am still wondering how someone can claim to have a rational view and control on all the aspects of his existence, as Wolter did before.

    Such a perspective is necessarily blind, or maybe extremely reductionist, if it’s asked to answer all questions regarding life.

    You know, do you choose rationally every step you make, the relation you’ve got with your fathers, with girls, with friends; about sexuality, about gastronomy, culture, every important thing on life? Such a being is certainly not a human being. You can’t free yourself from beliefs, misconceptions, fears.

    Many tried to life that way in history, try reading Descartes, e.g. He surely did some great advances in many fields, but that wasn’t because his rationalism. If you read him today, you notice that he was as well full of that blindness you blame religious people to have.

    And nowadays those who criticize every religious behaviour are falling as well in error. Cause what matters, the true frontier, isn’t religious or atheist, but ignorance and knowledge. Those who think religions are equal to ignorance are just mistaken.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    >Also, are you referring to Kantian transcendence, classical transcendence (unity, goodness, and all that), or theological transcendence?

    I think here you were trying to divide to win; the concept trascendence is clear, even if later on anyone can add or remove some details on it.

  • Wolter

    > You know, do you choose rationally every step you make, the relation you’ve got with your fathers, with girls, with friends; about sexuality, about gastronomy, culture, every important thing on life? Such a being is certainly not a human being. You can’t free yourself from beliefs, misconceptions, fears.

    Yes, I’ve been called non-human before.
    But the fact is, I DO choose rationally with all of those.
    My father is my father. He has a loyalty to his family, and as such, I have a loyalty to him. It is mutually beneficial for us to work together.
    Friends are friends because we share some commonality, and enjoy similar activities. The bond of trust and loyalty is similar to that of a family, but not as strong.
    Girls are girls. They have behaviors and needs that are similar to boys, and some that are different. Male and female are required for reproduction, and the propagation of our species.
    Sexuality is not something that we can choose; it is wired into our brains. Ask someone why they have a fetish for womens’ shoes and they’ll say “I don’t know.” Ask someone why they are gay and they’ll say “I don’t know.” Ask a man why he likes to have sex with women but not with men and he’ll say “because I’m not gay.”
    Food sustains our bodies. We have specific likes and dislikes wired into our brains, and other likes and dislikes that we develop over time. “Good” food stimulates the pleasure center of our brain, and so we seek out such foods.
    Culture is a lot like codified art; when something powerful (pleasurable or not) is introduced and makes a big impression, it becomes ingrained as part of the culture, such that everyone in that culture is intimately familiar with it.
    Art is the act of creating something recognizable that wasn’t there before. Art creates something new, something not experienced before, and humans enjoy being stimulated by new or unique things so long as they can understand it. Our brains operate on pattern recognition, and seek patterns in everything, sometimes obsessively, even when there is no pattern. Religion is a prime example of this.
    Fear is an evolved trait for evading predators and avoiding dangerous situations. It’s not perfect (you can become paralyzed by fear, for example), but it’s worked well enough that it’s a genetic trait shared by pretty much all vertebrates.
    Misconceptions are the result of faulty pattern recognition and group think. Group think keeps small tribes together and cohesive, but also blinds those tribes to certain realities. Then again, when your day consists of collecting food, eating food, maintaining shelter, and fucking, most of reality is not important.

    > Those who think religions are equal to ignorance are just mistaken.

    How so?

  • Michael

    Stavrogin, Science does not claim to hold ALL the answers as Religion does, there are still many things science does not know (dark energy/matter, whats beyond the universe) but it does not simply state “We don’t know whats behind this so it MUST be God”.

    You are mistaken that Atheists think they KNOW there is no God when in fact we still open that possibility (if there was evidence for God, every Atheist/Agnostic would rethink everything),

    You on the other hand -along with Christians/Muslims/etc. do not leave other possibilities open and just settle on an arbitrary God you believe because of the family you were born into.

    We are NOT Agnostic/Atheist because we KNOW there is no God; we are because there is no real evidence to believe in any particular God besides ancient writings, unreliable “eye witnesses”, and popularity.

    You cannot prove to me Santa Clause doesn’t exist but that doesn’t mean he does. You don’t believe it because there is no evidence. People have even claimed to have seen Santa Clause.

    Thats why we don’t believe in God (Christian God included), we do however, take it into consideration (since there are an INFINITE number of possibilities of what is beyond the universe, what created it if anything, etc.)

    It is ridiculous to me that you believe in the Christian God when there are an infinite number of possible Gods throughout history, why go with the most popular one? How do you know Thor or Zeus isn’t real?

    “You can’t free yourself from beliefs, misconceptions, fears.”

    No, I think it is you who cant free yourself from your arbitrary beliefs, your misconceptions about rationality, and fear of the unknown.

  • Michael

    “And nowadays those who criticize every religious behaviour are falling as well in error. Cause what matters, the true frontier, isn’t religious or atheist, but ignorance and knowledge. Those who think religions are equal to ignorance are just mistaken.”

    Main Entry:
    ig·no·rance
    Pronunciation:
    \ˈig-n(ə-)rən(t)s\
    Function:
    noun
    Date:
    13th century
    : the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge

    People:

    · accept their religious beliefs with little or no evidence

    · accept religious beliefs that are contrary to the evidence

    · accept religious beliefs without studying competing views

    · are certain about religious beliefs that are dubious at best, and

    · accept their religious beliefs not because they are intellectually compelling (or factual), but because they are emotionally comforting.

  • http://muertosyvivos.blogspot.com stavrogin

    @ Wolter

    I’m not calling you not-human: I affirm that your ideal, the man that you are describing, maybe you pretend to be, isn’t real.

    To say that “a father is a father, girls are girls, food is food” is not an analysis, it’s a blind explanation, due to the infinite ways in which those concepts have been understood in human history.

    Reading Michael’s comment, I guess that the way christians are in your countries (followers of tv preechers) make you think we all are like them. That’s unfair and wrong. I’m only pointing out that even in christianism there’s room avaible for true knowledge: to declare oneself a christian (I haven’t done this yet, btw) doesn’t imply to be an ignorant and close-minded.

    For example, I wouldn’t affirm so loud that there’s no life after death, since no one has returned to explain it to the living ones.

  • Mike Friesen

    Nobody has proven that God is not real. You are all just wasting your time. Sad really. You have all of this worldly knowledge and you want to waste it here trying to convince people in what you believe. Believe what you want. Keep it to yourself. Nobody cares. God does, but nobody else. He’s the one that matters in the end. so all of your thoughts and ideas and knowledge are a waste. You really need to get a hobby.
    Sad.

  • Michael

    “Can you prove any of this at all? Do you personally know anyone who has died, gone to heaven, and come back to report to you? Without that proof, how can you be dogmatic as a christian? As an atheist, I am not dogmatic. I simply say that there is no proof of God, and that all the scientific evidence that i’m aware of tends to disprove the existence of the supernatural.”

    Applauds*

    Atheists don’t believe in the Christian God the same way Mike Friesen doesn’t believe in Zeus or Thor.

    If there was GOOD evidence, as in, verifiable data that one of the many Gods throughout history existed, then as an agnostic I would believe in that God.

    But all you have is an ancient book, the passage of time, and unreliable hearsay.
    Thats it.
    Basically all religions have this, so what makes you believe that your God is the real one?

    “Believe what you want. Keep it to yourself. Nobody cares. God does, but nobody else. He’s the one that matters in the end.”

    LOL Mike, you say “believe what you want, keep it to yourself”, but then go ahead and say “God is the one that matters in the end”….

    ????

  • Mike Friesen

    You know what? You all are right. I shouldnt even be concerned. When we die we just poof! Disappear. The end.

  • Mike Friesen

    So what you all are saying is this. Everything is just the way it is. God does not exist. There is no point to life. We all just vanish when we die and we only have to answer to ouselves. Wow! Then we could all be our own gods and try to take over the world. Especially all you smart guys. Wolter, LRA, Stavrogin.

  • Wolter

    We don’t need to be our own gods. Gods are not necessary in order to live.

    One common refrain I hear from religious people is that there is no point to life without their god. That is a cop-out that demonstrates their pathological fear of standing on their own two feet.
    Life has whatever meaning you give it, and billions of people who don’t believe in your god live wonderful, meaningful lives. If you’d only stand up and take responsibility for your own life, you might come to understand this.

  • blotonthelandscape

    Proof 38 kept me going for a long, long, long time…

  • DaMan

    747. ARGUMENT FROM SUPERIORITY
    (1) Innumerable gods of varying fantastic abilities and qualities have been proposed by humanity over the millenia.
    (2) All have been refuted except for [place your god of choice here].
    (3) Therefore, [place your god of choice here] exists and yours doesn’t so na na na na

  • http://www.trinityandjason.com jasonsubers

    These are pretty funny, man. A lot of serious commentary going on here that points to some major issues in the church today. Very good questions!

    I haven’t read any of the other posts, so maybe this has been addressed, but what do you say about the power of the Holy Spirit?

    I’ve heard the arguments contributing “religious experiences” to the sheer power/will of the human mind crafting emotions and casting experience to the point of conviction, and I am willing to accept that on some level.

    But there are things you simply can’t put in that category.

    For instance – I’ve seen people in wheelchairs healed instantly. I’ve seen deaf people be able to hear. Cancer that completely disappears within a day. Physical demonstrations of power that in my experience have no other explanation. The gift of tongues, words of knowledge, healing, etc.

    I see these things daily in my life with Jesus. I don’t go to some super performance-oriented church or walk in “THE POWA!” or any of that crap. There’s a vein of this in the church that is fake, attention-seeking, and manipulative.

    I just love Jesus, and I love people because He loves people, and as I’ve walked with Him, I’ve seen Him demonstrate that all the time – at the grocery store, on the street, wherever – just living life. And often, it’s expressed in the “demonstration of the Spirit’s power.”

    Just wanted your thoughts on that.

  • LRA

    Argument a la Borges:

    Argumentum Ornithologicum (argument from birds)

    “I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second or perhaps less; I don’t know how many birds I saw. Were they a definite or an indefinite number? This problem involves the question of the existence of God. If God exists, the number is definite, because how many birds I saw is known to God. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because nobody was able to take count. In this case, I saw fewer than ten birds (let’s say) and more than one; bit I did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, but not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. That number, as a whole number, is inconceivable; ergo God exists.”

    (Borges, the genius! He proved that god exists and that it is Humanity!)

  • myersschmidt

    I’ve seen a lot of interesting arguments on here and appreciate the thought proccess and respect. I’ve been a christian my whole life and there have been times when I’ve doubted my faith but everytime that happens my faith grows more. Both the arguments and counter-arguments against God are interesting and I’m not going to lie, it seems like “evidence” is against there being a God, but it seems to me that a lot of scientific theories support God also.

    For example, the theory of cause and effect. In the universe we have observed that for every effect something caused it. Based on this it would seem that for there to be a universe something must have caused it and set it in motion. This idea is supported by the fact that the universe is expanding. For some people that cause is some un-known force, for others (like me) it is an all-powerful, all-knowing God. I know this is only one example and it might even be a bad one but it makes sense to me.

    It seems that a lot of people have trouble understanding why Christians believe what they do when evidence is against them. For me it’s a simple answer: faith. I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is God’s Son, and that God sent Jesus to die on a cross to save man kind. I believe it for multiple reasons; supernatural experience (I don’t mean hearing voices or anything like that), I don’t want to risk not believeing and being wrong, and the evidence I see supports an all-powerful Creator.

    One thing I’ve noticed is that most atheists, though they have good arguments, seem to simply deny any possiblity that there is a God. I don’t understand that. When we truly know so little about the universe we live in, a universe where anything is possible, then isn’t it possible there is a God?

    I’m sorry if any of my thoughts are confusing, irrelevant, or not accurate to actual fact

  • Laura

    I feel bad for you stupid atheists. Cause when it’s all said and done, you’ll see there is a God. And then you’ll face the consequences. Have fun with that!

  • MaryLynne

    Hi, myers,

    “One thing I’ve noticed is that most atheists, though they have good arguments, seem to simply deny any possiblity that there is a God.”

    Good question. However, that’s not quite it. I don’t deny the possibility that there is a God – I say that there is no PROOF that there is a God. There very well might be. I think it would be funny to find out we are all wrong and Zeus is waiting in Olympus with mead for us all.

    If there is a Christian God, I see no evidence of it. The wonders around me are explained to my satisfaction by natural sciences. The voice in my head are electrical impulses traveling across neurons. There is no evidence that can’t be explained other more logical ways that where we go after we die is any different than where we were before we were born. If there is a God and he is so well hidden that we can’t perceive him at all, why bother?

    Are the argument to believe “just in case” – first of all, I have found that I have some control over my emotions and thoughts, but not beliefs. I can’t believe something I don’t believe. Try to earnestly believe in a leprecaun and you’ll see what I mean.

    The other thing is that there is a cost to the belief that I’m not willing to take on “just in case.” The world is more comfortable and makes more sense now, and I feel I can make better decisions about how to live my life.

  • Janet Greene

    I loved this response from Bishop John Shelby Spong, from his regular newsletter:

    Letter to Bishop Spong:

    The Church of England apologized to Charles Darwin last fall, nearly 150 years after he published his most famous work, for its initial rejection of his theories. The church conceded that it was over-defensive and over-emotional in dismissing Darwin’s ideas, and it called “anti-evolutionary fervour” an “indictment” of the Church.

    The bold move is certain to dismay sections of the church that believe in creationism and regard Darwin’s views as directly opposed to traditional Christian teaching. The apology, which was written by the Rev. Dr. Malcolm Brown, the Church’s director of mission and public affairs, says that Christians in their response to Darwin’s theory of natural selection repeated the mistakes they made in doubting Galileo’s astronomy in the 17th century. The statement read, “Charles Darwin: 200 years from your birth, the Church of England owes you an apology for misunderstanding you and, by getting our first reaction wrong, encouraging others to misunderstand you still. We try to practice the old virtues of “faith seeking understanding” and hope that makes some amends.”

    Opposition to evolutionary theories is still “a litmus test of faithfulness” for some Christian movements, the Church admits. It says that such attitudes owe much to a fear of perceived threats to Christianity.

    Bishop Spong’s reply:

    Dear JJJord,

    Thanks for your e-mail and the news that the Church of England has apologized to Charles Darwin for rejecting evolution. It is better late than never. My sense is that this action is more embarrassing than helpful. Darwin doesn’t need the Church’s apology. His thesis is now accepted academically across the world. Evolution is taught in fourth-grade science books. Medical science assumes its truth and the discovery of DNA took away the last vestige of the suggestion that it was still “an unproved theory.” The fact that there are some benighted souls in the world who believe that quoting the book of Genesis can somehow counter the insights of Charles Darwin, or that it is their Christian duty to resist Darwin, is hardly determinative in the debate.

    It is a tragedy that the Church officially resisted Darwin for the last 150 years, but that is quite typical of church leaders’ behavior. Recall that it was in December of 1991 that the Vatican finally admitted that Galileo was correct. This was about 40 years after space travel had begun. If Galileo had not been correct, our spacecraft would have collided with the sky that separated heaven from earth.

    I would suggest the leaders of the Church of England must now practice what that apology to Darwin suggests that we believe. For Darwin attacks the basic Christian myth of a perfect creation, the fall into sin, the divine rescue carried out by Jesus and the restoration through faith to our status as those created in the image of God. If we evolved from single cells into complex self-conscious creatures then there was no perfection from which to fall, no fall into sin, no need for a divine rescue and no capacity to be restored to something which we have never been. This means that the whole way of telling the Jesus story must be rethought, and this reformulation will threaten church leaders deeply. Clergy on Sunday mornings can no longer address “fallen sinners.” The mantra that “Jesus died for my sins” will have to be retired. The traditional meaning of the Eucharist will have to be revised. We will have to recognize that we are now addressing not those who need to be rescued from a fall but those who have not yet achieved the status of being fully human. Jesus must then empower us to be fully human; he cannot rescue us from sin.

    I’m glad to see the Church of England begin to enter the 20th century. I will be happier when they finally begin to enter the 21st century.

    – John Shelby Spong

  • Janet Greene

    @JohnC – if you read Spong’s writing, you would know that he would be quite offended at the term “belongs to Christ”. I offer you a challenge. Read his book “Rescuing the bible from fundamentalism”. If you are that sure of your faith in God, it won’t hurt you to read it. You seem like a nice person, but I doubt you will read it and expose yourself to the possibility of doubt. Correct me if I’m wrong.

  • Mike

    @Janet Greene. I read you were a cocaine addict when you “were” a Christian. I was a sex addict. Many preachers are addicts of some kind. Many Christians are too for that matter. Just because you are a Christian doesn’t mean you are perfect. Jesus was the only “perfect” Christian. To everyone else on here, there are no concrete answers for Christianity. We as Christians can only pray that it is true. God knows I would rather do to the best of my ability what I think as a Christian is right and be wrong in the end than to know what I know and deny Him through life and then be right about His existance in the end. Then it will be too late. But if I am wrong I have lost nothing. I cannot as a Christian and being fairly knowledgeable of science and some of its properties accept anything Darwin has to say about evolution. We as humans did not come from fish or monkeys or anything like that. I hope that you atheists on here do not believe this. You all sound reasonably intelligent to me. I don’t know why you all even waste your time on this sight. If daniel was truly saved in the beginning like he says this site is not going to get him unsaved so he can deny it all he wants. From my understanding ofv the bible God does not work that way. He gives us every opportunity to be saved and eventually gives up on an individual. But the ones who accept Him are His. For life. So Daniel if you were saved you still are and this web site is kind of futile. To all the Christians who visit this sight I simply say, don’t waste alot of time on here and for the love of Jesus don’t try to argue with any of these people. They use really big fancy words to cover up their self imposed ignorance to the Truth. And all your arguments will fall on deaf ears. Now I suppose LRA, Wolter, Daniel or someother know it all is going to make up a few more arguments against Christianity and how stupid Christians are and laugh at us and make fun of God and Jesus, but you know what, it’s OK. Jesus tells us we will be persecuted for our faith so it’s all good.
    Sincerely aBrother in the Faith and not a monkey, mike

  • Mike

    @Wolter
    >There’s that risk aversion again.

    Really, you want to risk something like that. This aint Vegas baby and you aren’t losing a couple hundred dollars.
    Wolter your knowledge is your god. Your need to know the facts and the ins and outs and your incessant reliance on this stuff you come up with to argue your point is going to send you to hell. Open up your mind. Why do you have to live your life based on men. Men are stupid. We like to walk around like we have all the answers and we are scared that we don’t. You Know there has to be more than what you know. I could sit here and, like you quote some stuff some one else made up and put into a handy dandy list of do’s and don’ts but I’m not going to. It takes too much time and I don’t have to repeat them to make myself believe them. The first step to becoming a child of Christ is admitting you are ignorant to His will and that you are not ever going to know the truth to everything. Like He told Job, “Who are you to ask me why I did this thing. Were you there when I made the heavens. Were you there when I named all the stars. I made you.” Or something like that. I wrote it so us stupid Christians who don’t know we came from monkeys could understand it. Anyway, you are you and I am me. God made the both of us and He gave us a free will. You believe your thing, let me know how it works out for ya.

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    Really, you want to risk something like that. This aint Vegas baby and you aren’t losing a couple hundred dollars.
    Wolter your knowledge is your god. Your need to know the facts and the ins and outs and your incessant reliance on this stuff you come up with to argue your point is going to send you to hell.

    What if the Mormons are right? Or the Muslims, or the Bahai’i? Why not believe all of them, and then, whoever’s right, you get to go to heaven? Why are you only averse to the risk of Christianity (and your specific brand of Christianity, at that) being right?

  • Michael

    “Really, you want to risk something like that. This aint Vegas baby and you aren’t losing a couple hundred dollars.
    Wolter your knowledge is your god. Your need to know the facts and the ins and outs and your incessant reliance on this stuff you come up with to argue your point is going to send you to hell. Open up your mind. Why do you have to live your life based on men. Men are stupid. We like to walk around like we have all the answers and we are scared that we don’t. You Know there has to be more than what you know. I could sit here and, like you quote some stuff some one else made up and put into a handy dandy list of do’s and don’ts but I’m not going to. It takes too much time and I don’t have to repeat them to make myself believe them. The first step to becoming a child of Christ is admitting you are ignorant to His will and that you are not ever going to know the truth to everything. Like He told Job, “Who are you to ask me why I did this thing. Were you there when I made the heavens. Were you there when I named all the stars. I made you.” Or something like that. I wrote it so us stupid Christians who don’t know we came from monkeys could understand it. Anyway, you are you and I am me. God made the both of us and He gave us a free will. You believe your thing, let me know how it works out for ya.”

    This is so ridiculous I don’t even know where to begin.

    “We like to walk around like we have all the answers and we are scared that we don’t.”
    You mean, like yourself? You claim to know the truth it seems, you have more wisdom than Einstein, Hawking, or any other great mind in history for that matter.

    Christianity isn’t the only religion Mike, and please, PLEASE don’t tell me that it isn’t a religion because it IS. What if the Muslims are in the right boat? What if the Scientoligists are the right ones?

    Although your ignorance is incredible to me, and I would love to address all of your logical fallacies. It is much easier to simply call you an idiot.

    Good bye, and may you be blessed by your imaginary sky daddy…..and Jesus….Oh wait……there the same guy!

  • Mike

    @Michael, Hello. Aren’t we defensive?? I believe this is why so many Jesus loving Christians have been murdered over the centuries. People like you can’t accept the truth and all that is left besides denial is murder. I believe if i was standing in front of you right now you would probably do your best to get rid of me. Tsk Tsk Tsk. At least Wolter can control his anger and hatred towards us.

  • Janet Greene

    The only reason the christians posting on this site are christian and not muslim or something else is because they were born in a nation where christianity is the dominant religion. It is patently ridiculous to deny this. Muslims tend to live in the mid-east, christians tend to live in north america, people who follow judeism tend to live in Israel. People in china have buddhist or other eastern beliefs. Christians – what are the ODDS that you happened to be born into a christian nations (incredible – the nation where the ONLY TRUE FAITH is dominant???) Can you not see the problem with this thinking????

  • Mike

    @Janet You are getting Catholicism and Christianity confused. Also it was puritans who killed the witches. No Christian as far as I know of has ever killed anyone for their beliefs. And there are plenty of people in office who are not Christians. I believe Barack Obama is not one. Look, sweetie, Get all your facts and then step up to the plate.
    @Winterminute. Listen to his tone. He wants to reach out and hurt someone. Just ask him.

  • Janet Greene

    @Mike – get your own facts straight. Catholics and protestants are christians. Puritans were protestant. They broke away from the catholic church because they did not want to answer to the pope – they wanted to go directly to the bible. Puritans are the “ancestors” of today’s protestants. And Obama has stated repeatedly that he is a christian (whether he is or not we can only guess). He has attended a protestant church regularly for 20 years. If he had stated that he was NOT a believer, we all know he would not have been elected. And maybe you don’t personally know any christians who have murdered for their beliefs, but I don’t personally know any christians who have been persecuted either. Just because something is not within our direct experience doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

  • Michael

    Mike, you are simply claiming I want to hurt you because you want to play the victim, therefor discrediting my argument.

    But everyone can see right through you. I don’t want to hurt anybody, I’m just calling you an idiot because you are incapable of thinking rationally, and you’ve dodged most of the questions presented towards you.

    You are the rambling idiot on the side of the street that everyone walks past, nobody wants to hurt you.

    Your attempts at dodging very important questions have utterly failed.

  • God’s Only Comic

    It seems true Christians are quite comfortable with there own self imposed ignorance. I can deal with normal ignorance because there is a chance for enlightenment. Willful ignorance in inexcusable and the product of the belief in the infalability of the “Goat Herders Guide to the Universe”. John, you need to realize your prosaic words about Jesus are derived from a bronze age mind control document and not inspired by anything more divine that human flesh that is no different than you or me.

  • Janet Greene

    @Mike – if you look into the history of serial killers in the US, almost ALL of them grew up in fundamentalist homes. I believe most of them were protestant. Again, I don’t know them personally, but seems like christianity has pretty violent results. Guess you know a tree by its fruit.

  • Mike

    @Janet- Just because you grow up in a fundementalist home doesn’t mean you ARE FUNDAMENTALIST

  • claidheamh mor

    Excellent list! I’m glad some recent postings brought this older column to my awareness.

    Variations of it are everywhere!

    The original list is great! Check out
    73. ARGUMENT FROM EXHAUSTION (jesse, grace, butterflyscar, alex….etc. etc.)

    108. ARGUMENT FROM TINKERBELL

    I couldn’t find any john C blatherings: “there is life! there is more! lol, love, blah blah.”

    The closest I’ve found so far is
    79. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL SANITY

  • LRA

    Argument #617:

    The argument from dookie:

    (1) Na-ni-na-ni-boo-boo
    Stick your head in doo-doo
    Pbbbbbbbbtttttt!
    Boy, are you in for a shock when you die!!!!
    Mwa-haaaa-haaa-haaaa-haaa-ha!

    (2) Therefore, god exists.

    • Martin Fallon

      Here’s a variation on the same cop-out ‘explanations’, based on personal experience:
      Me: How can there be one god, who is in fact three distinct gods, who are, at the same time, one single god? I mean, it doesn’t make sense…
      Brother Xavier: (thinks hard…) Well it’s difficult to explain, it might not make sense to a human being but it does make sense to God – that’s why it’s called “The Great Mystery of Faith”
      silence…
      Me: (trying to look convinced) Oh riiight, of coooourse…

      It would be funny if it wasn’t true.

  • Mike

    Da Man. There are 3 groups of religions.
    1. Catholics
    2. Jews
    3. Protestants
    The protestants are broken down into groups. Some of them being
    1. Baptists
    2.Methodists
    3.Lutheran
    and so on. The methodists and Lutheran broke away from the Catholics a few hundred years ago. The Christians the ones who follow Christ fall into these 3 groups. There is a long history following the death of Christ. Starting mainly with the persecution and deaths of many thousands who followed Jesus and claimed to be Christians. That still goes on to this day. The Catholics killed followers because they would not claim that the wine they drank at communion actually turned into Christs blood. The Jews don’t believe the Messiah has come. They are still waiting for the 1st coming of Christ, while Christians are waiting for His 2nd coming.
    There is just so much history and different ideals that go into each protestant religion that you can’t pinpoint just one as being Christian. The Puritans and Calvinists are extreme Protestants. Back when the “New World”. was started, Puritanism was the law. Church and state were not seperated. If you broke the law it was basically the church that punished the guilty. Witchcraft, Janet, was against the law. Punishment for that crime was death. Now, while the way in which the accused were determined to be witches was not necessarily Christianly, torture until confession, the punishment as was written in the law fit the crime. So, as the world and times progressed, thankfully so did the religions of the world. Yes Puritans by todays standards were questionable Christians, back then they were doing what they thought was right. I am a Christian. Todays christians practice our religions to what we know as the will of God. Back in the 1600′s you guys would all be put to death for your beliefs. But this is a new generation a new time. We are open-minded and for the most part freewill is a part of our lives. Our country was founded on Christian principles. All of our Nations founding fathers were Christians. Atheism as far as I can tell is a fairly new thing started by men who took advantage of the seperation of church and state. So it is not something I would put any stock in. If you will just look down thru history you will see that the belief in God was at the core of every civilization, even if it was not Allah or Yaweh or Zeus. God or various gods were the center of peoples lives. Look at Rome for example. Many gods for many different things. They wouldn’t even go to war unless they recieved a sign from their god. Atheism as far as I am concerned was made up by men who are afraid to dedicate themselves to anything. The people who practice it are wasting their time. Maybe they provide some kind of service to their given society and maybe they are here so people like myself will cement themselves further into their religion which has proven to be the case here. So maybe you guys aren’t a waste. You have made me realize that just because I believe in Jesus everything is not ok. I would rather believe in multiple gods than to be a self proclaimed atheist. Any way when I say Christianity is not a religion I simply mean that it is a personal relationship with my Savior and not any religion in particular.

  • Michael

    “Atheism as far as I am concerned was made up by men who are afraid to dedicate themselves to anything. The people who practice it are wasting their time.”

    You are an incredibly simple man Mike. People will pay large sums of money to watch you go on your incoherent, irrational, and fact-less ramblings in a reasonably sized stadium.

  • T-Rex

    I know I’m going to regret getting involved in this, but…

    Three groups of religions? The Muslims, Pagans, and Hindus that I know will be surprised to hear this.

    And how does one “practice” atheism? Does practice make perfect?

  • Mike

    @Michael Prove me wrong.
    @T-Rex I was referring to religions thought of as Christian.The 3 you speak of are not.
    The act of being a Godless human is practicing the atheist way.

  • T-Rex

    Judaism is Christian? Again, the jews I know would be surprised.

    You make my head hurt, Mike.

  • Mike

    @ T-Rex No Judaism is not a Christian religion. There are people on here that have made that mistake.

  • T-Rex

    I think you are willfully baiting us into arguing with you. There is no way you could be this clueless.

    I’m done here. I’m turning off the email notifications so that I won’t be sucked back into the circularity of this argument.

  • Mike

    @T-Rex Whatever.

  • Mike

    @ Daniel
    I wish there was something I could say to make you turn back. I know this is a decision you have made by yourself, so I alone am not going to be able to change your mind. We are all in His flock. Some of us never decide to go with the rest. Some of us go with the rest and then leave never to come back. God made a few of us shepherds to tend His flock. Our job is to find the ones who have lost their way. And when we find them we are to do everything in our power to bring them back. If we don’t then we have failed the job He gave us. But at the same time we as His shepherds cannot spend our entire time with one of the flock at the risk of losing more. Maybe I have said the wrong things. Maybe I have said too much or too little. But I believe my work here is done. If you were truely saved in the beginning then God is still working on you. And I am going to leave you to him. The work you are doing here is going to, in the long run, hurt more than help. You said to me previously that emotional pleas will fall on deaf ears, but the time for that is long gone. You have quite a little following on here and they are dedicated to this site and what it stands for. I can see by their silence they have reached some kind of collective agreement about not signing on until I am gone. I think that is funny. If I truly believed in something you would never be able to shut me up. Until now that is what they have done. Too bad. At any rate, I hope someday somehow you will see what is right. I applaud your effort, God could really use a man like you.

  • Mike

    @Wolter
    Who said I feel bad about myself? Aren’t you slipping in an unfounded conclusion by assuming I feel bad about myself?
    Such a hypocrite. Besides I’m not going to waste anymore time with you. You have done nothing but create an evil atmosphere for all who come to this site. Satan has got you wrapped around his finger. You are playing his favorite game. But since you don’t believe in God i suppose you don’t believe in satan either. I guess that makes your ignorance alot easier to bear. Oh and my logic isn’t tortured, it’s right. It is your logic that is questionable. Where do you come up with all this crap that spews out of your mouth? Mine has been around for thousands of years. Since you are so intellegent, then instead of me proving that God is real, Then you prove that He is not. You can’t. Just like I am not going to be able to prove to you that He is real. So there you go. We are both just wasting our time. And how come every time I direct a question to Daniel , you have to jump in and get me all riled up?

  • Michael
  • Mike

    @Francesc
    Wow! Aren’t we full of ourselves. Sorry, I didn’t mean to get you so worked up. I don’t even know where to start with you. There was so much information you put out there. Most or all of wich was wrong. You need to confer with Wolter or Daniel and then come back and talk to me. Wait a minute, nevermind, They make up lies and only tell half truths to prove their point as I am sure you will too. Let me say you probably want to go back and review things you said. Why is it that you Godless atheists resort to sick humor and cynisism to argue with Christians. I’ll tell you why, because that is your only line. That is all you have, yourselves and anything you can make up and “think” you know about Christianity. I was going to defend all that I said but I don’t think I need to. Because you have your mind made up with your ignorance. I will say however that I assumed everyone would realize that I knew there were more religions than I had written down, but unlike you I don’t have the time to list them all. Are you really that petty? That would be an atheists MO, a nitpicker. I’m suprised you didn’t pick on me for misspelling something. And please for future reference, leave my grandparents out of this. I do not disrespect yours. Dont even think about mine.
    I really hope you don’t write me back because you truly are evil and you scare me. Even more so than Wolter.

  • prick

    what a frikken dickhead

  • Mike

    Wolter I was merely referring to the babble you were saying, but since you brought my God into this conversation allow me a counter if you will. Good.
    Your human definition and Gods definition of evil are not the same. First of all, you leading His children away from Him is evil. God wanting to eradicate and wipe out a bunch of non believing atheist scum, however is cleansing the land. Kind of like the flood but alot more fun. I added the last part. It was supposed to be funny. Anyway God doesn’t just wake up one day and say, “Hey I think I will wipe the state of New York completely off the map.” Remember boys and girls, He is kind and just. He has given a people every possible chance at redemption. Remember Sodom and Gamorrah? He told Lot to find Him a certain number I think it was 10 men who believed in Him and He would not destroy the town. Lot couldn’t even find 1. So guess what? Burn baby burn. The reason he destroyed children women and men is because evil begets evil. DUH!!
    This is why you guys will never understand. You have to ask God to open your eyes to the Word. If you mistakenly read the bible as any old book, that is what it will be. But if you read it as a tool of knowledge and understanding then you will come to know truth. But you can’t stop there, you have got to come to know Jesus. Without Him nothing in the Christian realm will never make sense. You quote the bible and don’t know what it means so you add what you thik and then tell someone else and it throws everything out of whack. I wish you guys just wouldn’t read it till you got saved but that isn’t going to happen. It does more damage to you than it does good.
    My prayers are with you Wolter. My God is not evil. If you understood Him you would know He does what He has to do. There is your proof.

  • Mike

    Wolter my friend, God does not deal with the children. Only their parents. It was the parents that made the decision for the children. Human decision has been the downfall of all mankind. Not Gods. He gives you a choice and a freewill. Just like I give my kids. They know what is right and wrong and I don’t stand over them evrysecond to make sure they do what I say. They have the choice. They do wrong they suffer the consequences. Same with humans and God.
    I thought you were a Christion at some point in your life.
    Has your age of intellectual reason made you forget all you have learned? Animals have no souls Wolter. They don’t go to heaven or hell. God wanted every peice of their civilizations wiped out. No exceptions.
    If there was an osiris and whatever other god you said I wouldn’t care if I was evil to them. God is the only one I have to be worried about.

  • Wolter

    > God does not deal with the children. Only their parents.

    Read the passages again:

    “do not leave alive anything that breathes.”

    “kill both man and woman, child and INFANT, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”

    > He gives you a choice and a freewill. Just like I give my kids. They know what is right and wrong

    Does an infant know what is right and wrong, that it can be judged?

    > Animals have no souls Wolter.

    If something doesn’t have a soul, does that mean that you can do no evil to it?

    > If there was an osiris and whatever other god you said I wouldn’t care if I was evil to them. God is the only one I have to be worried about.

    But this is your eternal soul we’re talking about, Mike! What if you are mistaken, and have to spend eternity in a burning hell for choosing the wrong god?

  • Mike

    Wolter why do you act like you are stupid? I know you are not. For every question there is an answer. God wasn’t punishing the children. Yes He had them killed but at the fallacies of their parents. Whom He gave the opportunities too. Have you ever told an infant to do something Wolter? Stop acting stupid. Sure you can do evil to something without a soul. God said kill they killed. I am not mistaken about God Wolter. He is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

  • Mike

    You know the irony here? You guys are arguing with me about something you don’t even believe in. What then??

  • Sunny Day

    “He had the children killed along with the women and old people because they were beyond redemption”

    Interesting, tell me more of what your imaginary god can’t do.

  • Mike

    Hey sunny day!! Welcome to the band wagon. Yes I realize I’m on an atheist website. My God can do anything. What can yours do?

  • boomSLANG

    “If I keep one wandering lost child of God from turning into you and Daniel and LRA and trj and all the others like you then I have succeded in my mission. End of story just as simple as that. ”

    Evidentally, no, it’s not quite that “simple”. Why?…because according to the religious doctrine that you’ve adopted and are attempting to promote as “Truth”, it was “Prophesied” that there would be skeptics, nonbelievers, backsliders, etc., etc.

    If you take a minute to really think this notion through, you’ll see that if you and your Xian constituents succeed in your “mission” – that is, converting every human being to Christianity – well, then said “Prophecy” will have failed. I would think that even a Christian would have to admit that it doesn’t look very good when the supposed inerrant, unchanging “Word of God” has failed in its predicting of the future, yes? (not that that is the only failed “Prophecy”, or anything)

    In any event, it would be in your best interest to not noodle with “God’s Plan”, in which case, you will want to leave a few of us here on U.F. “UN-converted”. Not that such a goal will be easy to achieve, by the looks of things ; )

  • Mike

    @All,
    I will never sink to the depths you all have. There is no excuse for the way you people behave. Especially you Wolter. Like it or not, rationalize all you want. You are Gods once you ask for forgiveness and ask Him into your heart. Some of you HAVE been down that road. Even if you are scared to admit it in front of each other. Because that would make you a liar. That is the funniest thing about you all. God still works in your life whether you will admit it or not. But for some reason you think science is the answer. Yeah I admit science is great as long as you don’t fully rely on it. Scienc is capable of healing inventing and what ever else you want it to do. But that is it. It won’t bring peace and love. It will not offer that capacity in any human. That only comes from One. And no Wolter, its not from ones self. trj, I’m not proselytizing. None of you are capable at least not from me alone. Some of you have already been saved so it would be a moog point for me to do so. I am here for the ones who log on and don’t know which way to turn. The ones on the fence if you will. Your arrogance is showing again. Always about you.
    LRN, as studied as you are you are still blind. It may be possible to know too much. Don’t tell Wolly, I can’t knock him off his pedestal as it is. You sister I know are saved. You remind me of my wife. She is very strong willed and proud of her education. And I am too. She has even stated that she thinks she could become an atheist. But she is not and neither are you. You are Gods child like it or not.
    What else? Oh yes. Wolter you make a good right hand man for Danny boy. He lies to get his point made. You seem to be right there in his pocket. You two are made for each other. Your genuine hatred towards me and all of my other brothers never ceases to amaze me. The funny thing is he might also be saved and he has you fighting for him in this pointless meaningless fight you have chosen to champion. So in your mastery of all that is cynical and sarcastic and hatefilled you could be fighting for one of Gods chosen. That is freaking off the hook hilarious if you think about it.
    Danny I haven’t heard from you in a while. I realize you are probably real busy keeping this lie riddled hate filled athiest infested blog going. For aminute there when I first came to it I thought maybe you were some poor misguided by a bad preacher child of God, but then I stumbled upon your home page. Then I realized you were some poor misguided by a bad preacher child of God who has decided to wage a war against The One who saved him in the first place. Whew! You are the bad kid who tells his mom and dad that he hates them and never wants too see them again then stomps to his room and slams the door only to come out a few hours later and play football with his dad and tell his mommy what a good cook she is. Just because you hate him He will always love you and always take you back. Your Christian hating, lie riddled propaganda will not change that.
    Ya’ll take care
    Hurry up and write back. I can’t wait.

  • Logan

    I’m also a former believer, and in the waning twilight of my own personal god-delusion, I was reduced to argument #38.

    Followed, of course, by a loss of my beliefs.

  • http://hepiusspeaks.blogspot.com/ Hepius

    Hi Mike,

    I’m an atheist. At one point in my life I planned on becoming a protestant minister. I left Christianity when I couldn’t find anyone who could prove to me that all the other religions were wrong. How could I be certain that Christianity is the one true faith?

    I think you are the man for the job. I won’t ask you to disprove all of them. Could you just hit on one of them for me? How about Islam? Could you prove that it is wrong so I can cross it off my list of religions I might join?

    I’d really appreciate it if you could do it without using the Bible as evidence. And could you do it with no arguments that could be turned around by a Muslim and used against Christianity?

    Thanks,

    Hep

  • http://fourandtwenty.dreamwidth.org Beka

    Now, this was brought up a few months ago by “bp”, but I feel the need to mention in, as I didn’t see anyone else do so.

    E) It is not reasonable to suggest that 3 million people would all simultaneously choose to invent a highly complex and demanding law (just ask your local talmudic scholar) and then keep to that law for 3500 years. (especially one that contains within it self referential reminders every day, week, month and year)

    The problem with this is that Talmudic scholars don’t just follow and study the law laid out in the Torah, but all the hundreds and thousands of subsequent laws created after that. Talmudic law is complex and was not all created at the same time. You have a base law, and then it’s expounded upon, and picked apart, and given loopholes and has loopholes closed.

    Also, I don’t actually recall that the law WAS given to the entire nation. It was given to the Israelites by way of Moses and Aaron, who claimed to speak for god, and that’s a totally different animal.

  • http://jericosystems.com Eric Hamby

    haha reading the comments from some of you just make my day. Anytime i need to feel good about myself i can just come to this site and read a few comments from people trying to say god exists and there argument makes no since at all.

    • http://jericosystems.com Eric Hamby

      I have no clue why my comment appeared here and not at the bottom.

  • http://notsodailyfrench.com Briega

    I suppose it is too late, but I find the blog today. There are many things I don’t understand (and my bad English does not help.)
    @icefire wrote “Jesus wrote a tutorial on defeating death.” What does “defeat” mean? From my point of view, death is the winner. As a teacher, if I provided my students with a tutorial that works so badly, I would have lost my job for years.
    But what I really don’t understand is in which way it is important to prove or not to prove the existence of a god. If someone, tomorrow morning, came to me with evidence about the père Noël (I think he is like your SantaKlaus) that won’t change the slightest thing in my life. I just don’t care. Religions and religious people bother me. But god, no.

  • http://www.whycenter.com/ Why

    *in positive shock*

    I really glad that I found this post through Google. Now I’ve got something to show to some friends who are, well, you know. :-)

    David

  • Pingback: Jesus vs. Drum & Bass – Holy Spirit Remix | Unreasonable Faith

  • Young Earth Atheist

    1. There is a lot of suffering in the world.
    2. Any God who runs a world with this much suffering is a prick.
    3. Nobody believes in a God who is a prick.
    4. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

  • Young Earth Atheist

    1. God answers prayers.
    2. “Dear God, don’t exist. Amen.”
    3. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

  • Young Earth Atheist

    1. I just posted two new comments to this thread.
    2. They appeared in the middle of the comment stream, and not at the end.
    3. That’s strange, and I can’t explain it.
    4. Therefore, God exists.

  • Young Earth Atheist

    1. “god” is “dog” backwards.
    2. My dog just peed on my carpet.
    3. The stain looks a lot like Richard Dawkins.
    4. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

  • Young Earth Atheist

    1. Jehovah/Allah/God forbade bacon/alcohol/homosexuality.
    2. Eating Bacon/Getting Drunk/Having Gay Sex is fun and great.
    3. Doing all three at the same is awesome.
    4. That doesn’t make sense.
    5. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

  • Young Earth Atheist

    1. God, do not strike me dead if you don’t want to disprove the fact that you don’t exist.
    2. Erm…?
    3. Therefore, God may or may not exist.

    • http://notsodailyfrench.com Briega

      Dear Young Earth Atheist,
      Thank you for adding a bit of fun in a day that was rather gloomy.

  • HAYAT

    I WANT TO SAY THAT ALLAH ALMIGHTY(GOD ALMIGHTY) EXIST IF NOT THEN WHO IS CONTROLLING THIS UNIVERSE ONLY ONE ALLAH ALMIGHTY.AND IT IS MENTION IN ALL RELEGIOUS BOOKS. IF THE PEOPLE TO WHOM THESE BOOKS R GIVEN FOR THEIR GUIDE IF THEY HAVE NOT MADE CHANGE IN THESE BOOKS OR REVELATIONS.
    IF SOMEONE NOT AGREE THEN TELL ME CAN ANYONE SEE SUN NO HIS EYES WIIL BE NO MORE IF HE DO THAT.SO IF U CANNOT SEE THE CREATION OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY THEN HOW U CAN SEE ALLAH ALMIGHTY.HE IS ONE AND EVERYONE WILL SAY IT AT THE END OF LAST DAY.WHEN EVERYONE HAS TO GO TO ALLAH ALMIGHTY AND GIVE ANSWER TO THE DEEDS OR WORKS HE DO BD OR GOOD LUCK.ISLAM IS VERY GOOD RELEGION AND IF U WANT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE THEN FIRST MAKE RESEARCH ABOUT IT.U WILL KNOW THE RIGHT THING WHICH U DO NOT KNOW.

    • Daniel Florien

      IF ALLAH DOESN’T EXIST, WHO CREATED THE CAPS LOCK KEY?!?!?!!?!?!!111?1!!

      • http://notsodailyfrench.com Briega

        The caps lock key was created by the same blind person who could see neither the sun not what appeared on the screen. I don’t remember the name. Allah?

  • Jane

    I believe by choice. Every person looks like a gargantuan noob with any theory of origin to someone. You just have to question whether you look down on people for their beliefs.

    • Aton

      sorry, sometimes I have spelling problems : should be … believe.. and … believe…

      • Jabster

        You got proof wrong also … :-)

        p.s. There’s lot of active posts so please join in as I need someone else to cover up my bad spelling!

  • Aton

    Is it not true that belief does not need a reason? One can belief in anything. I could belief I could fly, but there is no reason to proof it, just because I belief it… Hmm…Sounds like a Xian or Muslim to me…

  • joey

    You must of been raised in a shitty Christian tradition. I feel for you!
    Without any religious cliches, I would like to say, “Christianity is a relationship not a religion.”
    God be with you bro!

  • Bill Freudenauzer

    Once upon a time I had a job on a residential psychiatry ward. After a while I realized that there was ot a lot of difference between the severely mentally ill and the typical religious fundamentalist nut case, except that the typical religious nut case was suffering from a set of shared delusions that had somehow become socially acceptable.

    When you are aproached by a religious glassy eyed spluttering nut case waving his tracts about and trying to convince you that paying fealty to his priest keepers and sharing his xenu, cheesus, krizna, muhamid, moronie, yowie, moosus delusion is the only way to keep him and his wacked out fellows from beating upon you, don’t try to argue with them. What they need is lots of Thorazine and if that does not help them accept reality, they need electro shock treatments.

    Religious people are mentally ill and are unable to accet reality or deal with the real world without their sustaning delusions.

  • Bill Freudenauzer

    hetty4christ needs an anti psychotic cocktail and some quiet time in the rubber room.

    She is clearly a nut case who thinks her hallucinations of cherubes and incubi and assorted devils are real, not just the random output of the messed up neural circuitry in her head.

    hetty4christ is really messed up and thinks her id is some external Satan monster rather than being able to admit to herself that she might have the occassional anti social urge that needs to be dealt with. Those voices you hear hetty dear are not angels and deebils warring for your non existant soul, they are the by product of your malfunctioning brain programming. Forget the exsorskisms by some venal crujifix waving charlatan, he jsut wants your money or into your pants. Find yourself a reputainable shrink and you have a small chanceof becoming sane. If you stick with the religious psykotiks you will only get more crazy and more dependant on their looniness.

  • LRA

    Hetty-

    I have never, in my whole life, felt more empty, inadequate, and inferior as I did when I was a christian. Since I left christianity, I have made my own journey. It has been difficult to be sure, but I am so glad to know that the small bits of wisdom I have collected along the way were well worth it because I actually did the intellectual work to earn them!

    I can’t speak for Daniel or any others on this forum who left christianity, but I can say that I suspect that the anti-intellectual nature of the church, christianity, and blind belief in the “mysteries” of Jesus can’t be truly satisfying to any person who uses evidence and reason as a primary approach to evaluating what to believe (or not).

    The bible says “love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and all of your MIND and all of your soul and all of your strength”– it is awfully hard to love the lord with your MIND when the evidence that the bible is a cobbled together piece of 2000 year old literature is sooooo overwhelming.

    Any religion (christianity included) is socially constructed for the purpose of social control of the masses. If you want to participate in that, well fine, but don’t expect those of us who aren’t easily fooled to follow. There is soooo much knowledge in this world (namely scholarly knowledge) that has reason and evidence behind it. What have you got but a few flimsy promises and an evil OT god?

  • LRA

    Sorry Ariel, but that’s a big fat WRONG for you!

    I mean, really?

    You are so ignorant that you think that scientists sit around and make up shit and then say “Gee, we’ll have this published in peer reviewed journals and because we’re all scientists, well, we’ll just automatically say its TRUE and its COOL!!!!”

    Is that REALLY how you think science works?

    tsk tsk… proof that our public schools really are screwed up!

  • http://twitter.com/Hetty4Christ hetty4christ

    you are in my prayers…and when you have hard days you turn to the right thing-the right ONE….

    So many have trouble without seeing what is the One to believe-that is why it goes on and on about not to have idols-He knew this was going to continue-without physical evidence of Him right here…there are so many historical proofs…if anyone fears to talk about a faith in this world it is about Jesus Christ-it is easy to talk about all the other cults and man made up ones-as for deep in all souls, we don’t double question them…so we aren’t intimidated if we are right with those.
    When raising Lazarus from the dead-mind you yes over 2000 yrs ago and names recorded with witnesses. They weren’t in our time era of Showtime specials…they lived out real lives-like today is the last day-and He showed them this to be passed on in record-the Bible-for us. And He gave us the Holy Spirit to dwell in His presence until He comes back..and I pray you feel the Holy Spirit before He return…and don’t go thru tribulation..all the signs of coming of ending times are closer and closer…and that won’t be pleasant. Many blessings to you and your search for what is right to follow-Satan has a grip on you…for that I am so sorry-I have been there…but that all can be changed.
    Pray you will find clarity in life…He still loves you. But blasphemy is one of the biggest sins.

    In His Love,

    Hetty

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    Hetty I do believe you are John C’s soulmate! You’ll have to stick around so you can meet him.

  • LRA

    Hetty-

    wow, that was truly a bunch of cobbled together, incoherent, sanctimonious crap (gee- kind of like the bible!)

    Satan has a GRIP ON ME? Are you serious?

    Well, then I give you this challenge:

    Prove it. You give me ONE shred of VERIFIABLE evidence to ANY of your claims. JUST ONE. And QUOTING THE BIBLE DOESN’T COUNT!

    The bible is about as coherent as any other mystical text, and the “history” (as you call it) contained within doesn’t prove diddly squat. There is NO archaeological evidence for any of it. No worldwide flood. No exodous of the israelites from egypt. Not even evidence of Jesus’ crucifixion by condemnation of Pontius Pilot (spelling?).

    As I said, it has to be VERIFIABLE. It has to be TESTABLE and OBSERVABLE by multiple people, over time, who all draw the SAME conclusions.

    Until you have that, you may as well tell me that the abominable snowman has a grip on me.

    Sounds to me like you’re the one who needs to get a grip!

  • http://twitter.com/Hetty4Christ hetty4christ

    I could have soul friends…I already have a soul mate! :) Blessings to you my dear friend…when do we get a real picture of you? :)

    In His Grip,

    Hetty

  • http://twitter.com/Hetty4Christ hetty4christ

    Amen dear brother in Christ..love Him…He loves us all so much! Walk by faith not by sight…
    Hebrews 11:1-2
    What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. God gave His approval to people in days of old because of their faith.

    In His Grip,

    Hetty

  • Burk

    yikes

  • http://twitter.com/Hetty4Christ hetty4christ

    Mike-do you see the difference in response…when Christ is the center of ones life…we are reborn..and goal minded to be more like Christ…which is full of love, joy, peace, mercy, faith, grace, goodness, patience, gentleness-and self control…and you do a fabulous job..keep reading some of the slander in here…many have been overtaken in this cynical world…I would rather one day with Him..than 100 here on earth. Bless you!

    In His Grip,

    Hetty

  • LRA

    Hetty-

    avoid Koolaid at all costs! I repeat! Avoid Koolaid!!!!

  • http://twitter.com/Hetty4Christ hetty4christ

    My friend…do you see how much work up and anger you have..you can rip and tear on me all you want..I know the truth…you have been introduced…it is all your free will…but I sure know the difference in life-with and without Him. Like U2..many songs about Him..Lifehouse..same.

    But many don’t see it..they view it in their cynical ways…why does anxiety increase along with depressioin each yr? More either atheist, no faith,nor practicing..or in a cult. Happiness is Your Choice. Given to you by God.
    I can sit here and throw verses at you-websites etc…won’t do a thing unless God works on you and has a lot of trial in your life that opens your eyes…worth it if that happens.

    Pray you have a restful night…

    In His Love,

    Hetty

  • LRA

    I’m not worked up. I’m irritated at your arrogant presumption that I’m *in the grip of Satan*

    And I can tell you right not that you do not KNOW anything.

    Knowledge requires three things:

    that it is true
    that it is justified
    that it is believable

    You have no way to verify your beliefs, so you do NOT know, you just believe.

    Further, there is NO evidence (justification) to choose your religion over any other, so again, you do NOT know, you just believe.

    Believe what you want, it’s your life. I left because the choices I make actually come from the rational pursuit of living the best life I can. Christianity didn’t offer me that. So I left.

    Further, I have experience many many many trials in my life, starting with a Jesus-believing father who treated me abominably (and guess what! According to the proverbs, he was justified as that book has passages that command parents to beat their children with a rod).

    You, like other christians who visit this site, obviously cherry pick what verses you believe and what verses you ignore. If you really lived the bible, then you’d give away all of your money to whomever asked (and when I say ALL I mean ALL), you’d discipline your children with a rod, and you’d leave behind your spouse and children to follow Jesus.

    But let me guess. You wouldn’t do any of those things, would you?

  • http://twitter.com/Hetty4Christ hetty4christ

    I have the #1 selling book worlwide-with proven historical facts-the Bible…you have your own gut feelings due to despair, unlucky life, no satisfication, no love, whatever you dwell in…you have yourself and the ground to turn to…and both created by God-what gifts He gave you to dwell in your own stubborn issues-He would rather you say it is satan…but heck if it is your ownself thrilled to hate the thought of God loving you so much-ready to help your plans unfold-then He will shut you out one day…

    think about it before he slams that door and you watch loved ones who do know Him and accept Him wave goodbye in ending days…or cry when you do die when day…

    Life is too short…so much happier with the book of life…the book that tells all-that your own self indulged rules or for that matter-none at all…

  • LRA

    “I have the #1 selling book worlwide-with proven historical facts-the Bible…”

    You have a best seller for sure. What has that got to do with its accuracy? NOTHING.

    In fact, the average IQ is about 100 and splits on a bell curve. People with sub-optimal IQs make up about 85% of the population. These people don’t have the intellectual ability to discern well thought out claims from bullshit. Is it really so surprising that these people would read a totally fallacious book?

    Take your comment, “proven historical facts” in reference to the bible. Yeah, you fall into the sub-optimal category.

    There is VERY LITTLE, I repeat VERY LITTLE historical fact in the bible that has been proven (and not for lack of people trying– people have been desperate to prove the bible true for hundreds of years). It is a mythological book (like Homer’s Odyssey). Now that CAN be proven.

    NEXT, you said:

    “I can sit here and throw verses at you-websites etc…won’t do a thing unless God works on you and has a lot of trial in your life that opens your eyes…”

    “you have your own gut feelings due to despair, unlucky life, no satisfication, no love,”

    WHICH IS IT? I have no trials? I have too many trials? ONCE AGAIN another christian shows herself to be CONTRADICTORY.

    BTW You have NO right to talk about my satisfaction or love in my life. You don’t know, you condescending idiot.

    Take you proselytizing elsewhere. We don’t want to hear it.

  • LRA

    I repeat my challenge:

    Prove it. You give me ONE shred of VERIFIABLE evidence to ANY of your claims. JUST ONE. And QUOTING THE BIBLE DOESN’T COUNT!

  • http://twitter.com/Hetty4Christ hetty4christ

    many better more healthy sites out there…and I am sure you have family-granted I don’t know your age…you all seem to be so fearful to show faces…I am back to my life of huband, child and gifts from our Lord…He is still waiting for you…pray that door doesn’t close on you…

    Sleep well…

  • reckoner71

    Wow. You couldn’t make this stuff up.

    In the end, it all comes down to a very personal choice: critical thinking or blind faith, and a very simple rule: keep church and state separate.

    And always wear clean underwear, but that’s more of a guideline…

  • LRA

    Hmmm..

    Let’s have some archeological/geological evidence for the flood.

    Oops! None.

    Let’s have some record that the Romans crucified a political rebel named Jesus.

    Oops! None.

    Let’s have some evidence that a census took place that required people to travel to their birth/home towns (like Bethlehem).

    Oops! None.

    Let’s have some archaeological evidence that a fairly large group of people wandered around in the desert south of the fertile cresent.

    Oops! None.

    Let’s have some evidence that the Egyptians had and used Israelite slaves, and that a man named Moses lived in the royal household.

    Oops! None.

    Shall I continue?

    The evidence I’m looking for is of a scholarly nature, that is published in peer reviewed journals. Can you provide that?

    If so, then I’d be happy to revise my position from “the bible has very, very few verifiable historical facts amongst a sea of mythos” to “the bible has a few verifiable facts amongst a sea of mythos.”

  • LRA

    ps. My sources are scholarly sources.

  • LRA

    pps What are yours?

  • LRA

    OTHER works of MYTHOS:

    the Qur’an, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Talmud, the Odes (in Confucianism), and, as I mentioned, The Homeric Epics.

    Done and done.

  • reckoner71

    While Dawkins is the most recent celebrity of atheism, being a poor writer, or a bad debater, doesn’t make him wrong.

    While I don’t cart The God Delusion around as my own undeniable tome of truthiness, I did enjoy it because it ridicules; religion and devout belief in fairy tales has escaped due ridicule for far too long.

    Hitchens is a pompous ass who loves to hear himself talk, but again, his celebrity and the mockery and disdain that he heaps on religion is entertaining. And he isn’t wrong.

    I remember back in sixth grade when we teased the younger kids for still believing in Santa Claus (after finding out for ourselves in similar fashion the year before). Was it mean? No doubt. Did we go overboard? Most definitely.

    Were we wrong about his existence? Unequivocally, no.

  • LRA

    So, you aren’t going to answer me? Interesting.

  • reckoner71

    You forgot one: http://bit.ly/tNc8S

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    The same proof you have that Thor does not exist. I’m willing to bet you don’t think that’s a good enough reason to believe in Thor, right?

  • reckoner71

    Atheists never promise certainty, we live by “I don’t know.” Believers, on the other hand, claim to know, and that has been their problem for two thousand years, because they can no longer sell the certainty backed up with fear and torture (though brainwashing still seems to be working well).

    Their other problem is humanity’s quest for knowledge. And now, science, unhindered by persecution, is closing in on the magic trick the religious leaders (who have a very vested, non-altruistic interest in all the power and money mythology has afforded them) have been performing all this time. We may not know exactly how it is done yet, but we do know, based on evidence, that the magician doesn’t really saw the lady in half.

    But I’m really sorry the show’s over; you had a good run. Try Vegas.

  • reckoner71

    Thor rules hard. If JC had been packing Mjöllnir, he would have way better street cred.

  • Janet Greene

    I am a former christian, now atheist. What I usually hear is that I no longer believe in christianity because I do not want to obey God. (I guess that’s true – I find most of the bible profoundly immoral). Bottom line – as an atheist, I am running away from God and the final judgment, and christians feel sorry for me. I do understand though – I used to be them!

  • Janet Greene

    Me too.

  • Janet Greene

    I’m glad your life worked out. My life story is the opposite – I was a secret cocaine addict when I was a christian, and my life got better when I did away with christianity. I just want to make a suggestion to you – is it possible that this “love” you felt from Jesus really came from you? All of our emotions are the result of chemicals in our brain. If you believe that Jesus loves you, that releases serotonin, the “feel-good” brain chemical. How do you know it’s really Jesus?

  • Janet Greene

    But can you say for sure that there IS life after death, or that christians will go to heaven and everyone else will go to hell? There’s no proof of that either, is there?

  • Wolter

    > I affirm that your ideal, the man that you are describing, maybe you pretend to be, isn’t real.

    There is no such thing as the ideal in the real world. I described who I am today, for better or for worse. What you believe I am doesn’t matter.

    > To say that “a father is a father, girls are girls, food is food” is not an analysis, it’s a blind explanation

    Of course it’s a blind explanation! It’d take pages and pages of text to lay out postulates, formal proofs, assertions and assumptions, and I really don’t think there’s much point in going to all that much trouble just to say “this is the way I think”.

    > Reading Michael’s comment, I guess that the way christians are in your countries (followers of tv preechers) make you think we all are like them. That’s unfair and wrong.

    No, the followers of TV preachers are just plain stupid.

    > to declare oneself a christian (I haven’t done this yet, btw) doesn’t imply to be an ignorant and close-minded.

    It implies a core, unshakable belief that does not rest upon provable fact.

    > I wouldn’t affirm so loud that there’s no life after death, since no one has returned to explain it to the living ones.

    Would you affirm loud that there aren’t 72 virgins awaiting you in paradise to serve your every sexual desire after you die?
    Would you affirm so loud that you won’t be reincarnated as a cow?
    Would you affirm so loud that your spirit won’t be trapped on earth, doomed to wander the land but unable to interact with it, for eternity?
    Would you affirm so loud that there isn’t a colony of gnomes living inside my computer case?

  • Janet Greene

    Michael, have you proven that God IS real? Isn’t the burden on you to prove the existence of something? For example, if I said that there is an invisible pink elephant in the clouds who reads my thoughts, can you prove that it’s not true? Shouldn’t the burden be on me to prove a fantastic statement like “God exists, God created me, God loves me, God sent his son to die for me, I’m going to live forever in heaven with God”, etc. Can you prove any of this at all? Do you personally know anyone who has died, gone to heaven, and come back to report to you? Without that proof, how can you be dogmatic as a christian? As an atheist, I am not dogmatic. I simply say that there is no proof of God, and that all the scientific evidence that i’m aware of tends to disprove the existence of the supernatural.

  • LRA

    Mike- We’re wasting our time? Really? Seems to me like you are the one who has to spend a lot of time with your *god*– especially given the fact that you can’t prove a thing…

  • Wolter

    93. ARGUMENT FROM MYSTERIOUS USE OF PREPOSITIONS
    (1) It is impossible to disprove God with your puny human intellect unless you are above God.
    (2) Are you higher than God?
    (3) I’ll take that puzzled look on your face as a no.
    (4) Therefore, God (being the highest thing ever) exists.

    32. ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
    (1) God exists.
    (2) I don’t give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  • Burk

    do you really think God cares what you believe? even with all the evidence to the contrary?

  • Ty

    Are you really this clueless? I get that you are attempting sarcasm, but you pretty epically failed at it. Instead it comes across as sniveling.

  • Wolter

    354. ARGUMENT FROM DESTINY
    (1) Without God, there is no no ultimate destiny and my destiny is dust.
    (2) I can’t accept that because I want more.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

    353. ARGUMENT FROM DOSTOEVSKY, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM RIGHT AND WRONG (II) (see Dostoevsky Didn’t Say It)
    (1) If God does not exist, everything is permitted.
    (2) I can’t accept that.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  • LRA

    “Then we could all be our own gods and try to take over the world. Especially all you smart guys. Wolter, LRA, Stavrogin.”

    Huh? That comment makes no sense to me.

  • DaMan

    Someone doesn’t get irony …

  • Wolter

    8. ARGUMENT FROM MIRACLES (I)
    (1) My aunt had cancer.
    (2) The doctors gave her all these horrible treatments.
    (3) My aunt prayed to God and now she doesn’t have cancer.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

    What really surprises me is how many people claim to have witnessed miracles that by some twisted logic proves that their particular god exists, and yet have not one shred of evidence to back their claims.

  • DaMan

    Lets see verifiable proof.

    If miracles could be proven, the world would know about it instantly in this age of communication.

    I simply don’t believe any of it …

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien
  • Wolter

    2. COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause.
    (2) I say the universe must have a cause.
    (3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

    493. ARGUMENT FROM GEORGE MICHAEL
    (1) George Michael says you got to have a’ faith, a’ faith, a’ faith.
    (1) I have faith.
    (1) Therefore, God exists.

    556. ARGUMENT FROM OTHERWISE UNACHIEVABLE DENIAL
    (1) I have faith in the Bible despite the fact that it endlessly contradicts common sense, the laws of nature, the sciences, a Himalayan Mountain of facts, and of course itself.
    (2) Such titanic denial could never be achieved by mere mortals alone.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

    529. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF KNOWLEDGE
    (1) See this circle?
    (2) Its interior represents all that we know.
    (3) What we don’t know is huge, perhaps infinite.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  • Wolter

    Actually there’s one that they very surprisingly missed on the proof page:

    ARGUMENT FROM RISK AVERSION
    (1) Some people said I’d suffer for eternity if I don’t believe in God.
    (2) I don’t like risks, no matter how minute.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  • reckoner71

    @myersschmidt

    One of the more rational responses I’ve read from a Christian. And refreshing. I love talking to believers who accept their beliefs as faith-based, and not fact-based. And I don’t imagine any of the atheists I’ve befriended, on this site or in person, would shun or maliciously ridicule someone for their private beliefs. We may dig for why you believe it, but we proudly stand up for your right to do so.

    I’m totally down with the possibility of a god; however, it’s the probability that governs my thinking and actions.

  • DaMan

    Ah – very clever reworking Pascal’s wager into a proof, good work!
    The question for anyone taking the risk averse path is of course “which god are you gonna lay your bets on?”

  • professoryackle

    Gosh Laura, not only do you get to be saved, you get to be right too. I’m sure you’ll be bursting with delight to think of all of us “stupid atheists” burning in hell.

    Schadenfreude, same as Our Father.

  • Wolter

    429. ARGUMENT FROM OTHER PEOPLE’S REALITY
    (1) I have experienced God.
    (2) Other people have not.
    (3) Poor people. There is something wrong with their perception of reality.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

    29. ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS (I)
    (1) Atheists are spiritually blind.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

    60. ARGUMENT FROM INSECURITY
    (1) We have gone to absolutely berserk lengths to establish that atheists are laughable morons.
    (1.5) Actually, we did so in the hopes of curing our own insecurities about theism — but there’s no chance in hell we’ll ever admit that.
    (2) Therefore, atheists are laughable morons.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

    284. ARGUMENT FROM HAULING ASS
    (1) [Theist creates message board account and logs in.]
    (2) “GOD IS REEL AND ALL YOU HEATHEN ATHEIST INFEDILS WILL BERN IN HELL FORE-EVER MARK MY WERDS!!!!!!!!@#3FD”
    (3) [Theist logs off and never returns.]
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  • Burk

    Ah, the loving Father: “Worship me or you’ll burn in hell!”

    The loving Christian: “Look at him light up like a christmas tree down there! Burn baby, burn! I love being a right.”

  • John C

    Because he has a “religious” title (Bishop) you think that means He belongs to Christ? Is of the root? No, no…he is a man of THIS temporal world a mere religious man and thus see’s in the limited one plane only.

    There is more…

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    Of course, the formal apology is fairly meaningless. Not least because the Anglican Church has fully accepted evolution for well over a hundred years; Darwin even got buried in church’s Holy of Holies: Westminster Abbey, resting place of kings, archbishops and saints.

    In fact, most of the work done to support an old earth and gradual evolution (both before and after Darwin) was done by country priests in both the Anglican and Catholic Churches, as they were the people who had both the education and the time to examine the natural world in detail. The Church of England was a very important driving force in the rejection of Young-Earth Creationism.

    I’m not sure the Anglican Church ever really rejected evolution; if they did, it was only temporary and long past. True, they waited a long time before issuing their formal apology for sins barely committed, but no-one doubts that the Catholic Church accepted heliocentrism centuries before they officially pardoned Galileo.

    we really don’t need to go around inventing reasons to dislike specific religions, do we?

  • Wolter

    > I was a sex addict.

    If you were, then you still are. I also wonder: are you talking about nymphomania, or the regular human sexual appetite?

    > I would rather do to the best of my ability what I think as a Christian is right and be wrong in the end than to know what I know and deny Him through life and then be right about His existance in the end.

    There’s that risk aversion again.

    > But if I am wrong I have lost nothing.

    You have lost the following:
    - an open mind: “I cannot as a Christian and being fairly knowledgeable of science and some of its properties accept anything Darwin has to say about evolution.”
    - a healthy view of sexuality
    - the freedom to question your core beliefs, and transcend them
    - the freedom to live your life as YOU see fit, rather than under the dictate of another.
    - 10% of your income

    > They use really big fancy words to cover up their self imposed ignorance to the Truth. And all your arguments will fall on deaf ears.

    15. ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE
    (1) Okay, I don’t pretend to be as intelligent as you guys — you’re obviously very well read. But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist. I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you’ll just ask him into your life. “For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth.” John 3:16.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

    > Now I suppose LRA, Wolter, Daniel or someother know it all is going to make up a few more arguments against Christianity and how stupid Christians are and laugh at us and make fun of God and Jesus, but you know what, it’s OK. Jesus tells us we will be persecuted for our faith so it’s all good.

    120. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (I)
    (1) Someone made fun of my faith.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

    121. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
    (1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
    (2) I am an idiot.
    (3) People often point that out.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

    122. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (III)
    (1) You atheists are mean!
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

    285. ARGUMENT FROM BAPTIST BOARD
    (1) God calls us to be a peculiar people.
    (2) Stop laughing, foul non-believer.
    (3) In order to preserve our own particular peculiarity —
    (4) Stop laughing, I said.
    (5) We must be a people apart.
    (6) This means not listening to anyone who believes differently than we do, because this would taint our peculiarity.
    (7) If you do not stop laughing —
    (8) (Oh, I have to do the end of the argument?)
    (9) Therefore, God exists.
    (9a) And God especially exists because non-believers are laughing at us, which means we’re persecuted, which means we’re special.
    (10) Therefore, God exists.

  • LRA

    “Now I suppose LRA, Wolter, Daniel or someother know it all is going to make up a few more arguments against Christianity”

    I didn’t make up that argument… Borges did! It is found in his book “Dream Tigers:

    Jorge Luis Borges:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Luis_Borges

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    Huh? How do you get from what Michael said to thinking he “can’t stand the truth” and “would probably do [his] best to get rid of me”?

    Please point out anything in what he said that even remotely justifies that kind of response.

  • Janet Greene

    @Mike – I find it so funny that you talk about christians being murdered! I grew up believing that christians had always been persecuted. What bull! For thousands of years, christianity has dominated, usually under fear of execution. Who was responsible for the crusades? The Inquistion? The thousands of women who were tortured (often sexually), burned or hanged as “witches”? Which group of people did George HW Bush say were not even “citizens” of America? (He was referring to atheists). If you are not a christian, you can’t even run for civic office in the US. And you say christians are persecuted. Wow. I’m truly baffled.

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    ” @Michael, Hello. Aren’t we defensive?? I believe this is why so many Jesus loving Christians have been murdered over the centuries ”

    mark: What purpose does it serve for your invisible sky daddy to have allowed all of those christians to be murdured in the first place.

    Exactly why would your god who supposedly loves you (christians) allow you to be persecuted by non christians?

    If Chrisitans are supposed to go out and spread the word, exactly why would god allow non believers (who wont go out and spread the word) to harm or murder christians?

  • DarkMatter

    Probably frustration because of those who kill in the name of religion.

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    You are getting Catholicism and Christianity confused. Also it was puritans who killed the witches. No Christian as far as I know of has ever killed anyone for their beliefs.

    If you want to claim that Catholics and Puritans are not Christians (a position that would surprise both of those groups), you’re going to have to define exactly who does count as a Christian? Just you? Some sub-set of the people who attend your church? Members of other churches in the same denomination? How tiny, exactly, is Christianity?

    I believe Barack Obama is not one.

    Again, unless you’re going to provide a rigorous definition of who you accept as “Christian”, your belief about Obama is worthless. He is a Christian by any sane definition.

    @Winterminute. Listen to his tone. He wants to reach out and hurt someone. Just ask him.

    So, you can’t actually point to anything that would support your assertion that he’s violent?

    I did listen to his tone, and I didn’t get anything like that out of it. Please point out the specific things that I’m missing.

  • DaMan

    Mike, Mike, Mike.
    I thought maybe you were a bit thick, and then you went and opened your mouth and confirmed it big time – “You are getting Catholicism and Christianity confused”
    What a dill

  • claidheamh mor

    Exactly!

    There you have it – a variation of:

    210. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION
    (1) I couldn’t imagine not believing in God.
    (2) Therefore, God exists

  • professoryackle

    I think Mike is projecting. He has/feels violent tendencies, but rather than face this he projects them onto anyone who disagrees with him.

    It also handily circumvents the need to indulge in valid debate or even find anything worthy to say.

  • professoryackle

    Personally, I think he’s an idiot too. If there’s one thing I can’t tolerate, it’s abject stupidity, and he had my hackles up from the start of his manifesto, beginning christianity is not a religion. It is a state of being.

    ‘Course, he’ll probably say I have violent tendencies too, based on what I’ve just said.

    Don’t make him angry!

  • professoryackle

    Oh crikey, enough with the CAPSLOCK already. Why do xians always use caps when they’re riled?

  • DaMan

    429. ARGUMENT FROM MIKE
    (1) I will claim all sorts of weird spirtual stuff like christianity is not a religion and catholicism is not chritsianity …
    (2) … and then shout at and abuse and mock anyone who tries to debate the fact
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  • Wolter

    > Really, you want to risk something like that. This aint Vegas baby and you aren’t losing a couple hundred dollars.

    You are taking the exact same risk.
    Allah will not allow Christians to enter heaven.
    Jehovah will not allow you in if you haven’t saved enough people to get the frequent flier miles that would get you into heaven with the rest of the 144,000.
    And if you don’t fix your body thetan, your soul will be trapped forever.

    > Wolter your knowledge is your god.

    Funny that. Another Christian said that I am my own god. It seems odd that you folks can’t understand how others have no need for any gods at all.

    > Your need to know the facts and the ins and outs and your incessant reliance on this stuff you come up with to argue your point is going to send you to hell.

    This is conjecture.

    > Open up your mind.

    It is open. And you’ve already demonstrated how open yours is.

    > Why do you have to live your life based on men.

    Why do you have to live your life based on a fantasy?

    > We like to walk around like we have all the answers and we are scared that we don’t.

    YOU might believe that, but others don’t. I like the fact that I don’t have all the answers. It makes life so much more interesting.
    What I fear is people who insist that they DO have all the answers, for they are the most dangerous people of all. In every instance to date, those people have ruined things for countless others because of their invalid conviction that they have The Truth and The Way.

    > Like He told Job, “Who are you to ask me why I did this thing. Were you there when I made the heavens. Were you there when I named all the stars. I made you.”

    Of course. The first rule of organized religion is: Make sure your faithful don’t ask too many questions. Questions are bad, mmmkay?

  • professoryackle

    Like He told Job, “Who are you to ask me why I did this thing. Were you there when I made the heavens. Were you there when I named all the stars. I made you.

    In other words, “I’m bigger than you, now siddown and shaddup, and let me get off on this schadenfreude”.

  • http://deleted Janet Greene

    I think it’s understandable but sad that christians believe in a perfect heaven if they accept salvation. There is no perfection. Anywhere. When the sun is out, there is a shadow. We all have a shadow side. Nature can be beautiful but violent. Everything is a mix of “good and bad”. This idea of perfection is a childish notion that there is a perfect parent in the sky that will make everything ok. It’s black and white thinking. It’s an inability to accept that we don’t know what happens after death. I agree that it’s existentially terrifying not to know. But it’s truth. But maybe some people must have the god fantasy in order to survive. Hopefully, these people will eventually grow up and seek some truth. When they are ready. It’s not healthy to be stuck in that place.

  • http://deleted Janet Greene

    @PKW – I am a former christian, now atheist. You asked why some people are so passionate about disproving god/religion. I can only speak for myself. It’s because belief in religion is dangerous. I won’t even go into the religious dogma that caused 9/11. I’m talking about christianity too. For example, if someone believes that the second coming of christ is iminent, they will not try to preserve our beautiful planet. What’s the point? Armagedon is on its way – god’s judgment and all that. This does not even touch on the destruction that religion causes – there is simply not room on this blog to go into it. I would encourage you to read Celia Murray Dunn – she goes into how religion can destroy people psychologically. Anyway, I hope you find your answers.

  • http://deleted Janet Greene

    @Wolter – re your argument from cancer. Funny how people who lose their limbs are NEVER miraculously healed. Guess god can cure cancer (with treatment) but can’t grow back a leg. And what about all those people who did die of cancer? Guess god chose not to heal them or listen to their prayers. It’s really annoying to me when people rave about answered prayer when they get a raise or their child gets accepted into a good college. Yet there are people in other countries who have never known anything but loss, death, and fear. Wonder if they prayed too. I just don’t understand why people attribute good luck, or the result of hard work, or the result of medical treatment, a miracle from god. Way to go Wolter.

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    Mike,

    It’s not that we’re silent, it’s that most people don’t read old threads.

  • Mogg

    I suspect that the reason for the silence that you observe is that it’s Saturday evening, when most people have more important things to do than hang out on the internet (Sunday afternoon where I am, so not much happening). And you’re posting on an old thread – that’d explain it too.

  • Wolter

    Mike, I know you are trying to slip in unfounded conclusions to make yourself feel better, but please don’t insult our intelligence by expecting us to be so easily swayed by your tortured logic.

  • Roger

    I wish you could provide empirical evidence and proof of this mystical, magical sometimes-loving, sometimes-maniacal Sky Daddy of yours.

  • LRA

    Sorry Mike, but a lot of us are done being shee-ple. We don’t want to be shep-herded.

  • J.R.

    LRA, I don’t know if your a man or woman, but I’m in love with your beautiful mind. Time and time again, I learn something from your posts. I’m happy I meet you. In an earlier post, you said you were glad to see me. Ever since you and Daniel welcomed me on this site, I have been here every day. Thank you again for being here.

  • LRA

    Aw, JR thanks. I’m a woman. Also, I saw this guy wearing a shirt once. It had a Latin phrase on it that translated roughly to say this:

    “If you can read this you are over-educated.”

    Yup. That about sums me up!!!

    ;) he he

  • Wolter

    > Aren’t you slipping in an unfounded conclusion by assuming I feel bad about myself?

    Indeed I am. I had hoped that you’d take a hint, but I was disappointed.

    > Satan has got you wrapped around his finger. You are playing his favorite game.

    If you’re going to call “hypocrite”, at least wait a few paragraphs before demonstrating your own.

    > Oh and my logic isn’t tortured, it’s right.

    Of course it is. All religious people are right, by virtue of their religion.

    > It is your logic that is questionable.

    Indeed it is. After all, your religion tells you so, and therefore it is so.

    > Where do you come up with all this crap that spews out of your mouth? Mine has been around for thousands of years.

    And it smells pretty bad after fermenting for so long. Still, at least it’s not the oldest shit; that is reserved for the Jiahu, which, if you assume that age equates to plausibility, had a better religion than yours.

    > So there you go. We are both just wasting our time.

    Actually no. You may be wasting your time, but I’m quite busy exposing religious folly.

    > And how come every time I direct a question to Daniel , you have to jump in and get me all riled up?

    It’s not just when you direct a question to Daniel, but rather every time you spew religious nonsense and expect it to be taken at face value.

  • boomSLANG

    “Since you are so intellegent, then instead of me proving that God is real, Then you prove that He is not. You can’t.”

    Fallacy of negative proof. There is no “proof” that could disprove(in an absolute sense) a “God”. Can a Christian disprove Poseidon? Allah?….how about Quetzacoatl? No, hence, you cannot “prove” a negative. This is why we rely on evidence, not “proof”, and why we non-theists ask for evidence from those making the claim in the affirmative…i.e..”Jesus is Lord!”, etc.

    Gods are not disproven; Gods are UNproven.

  • Burk

    You would like Spinoza. Bottom line, you can call that ‘God’ if you want, but you’d be changing the definition drastically from what the Christians believe in. It stops being the same thing at some point.

  • Burk

    it would also suggest that it’s evil to send non-believers to hell when God programed the ability in us to have faith or not to begin with.

  • Burk

    It’s true, the choice to walk with your eyes open or to stumble blindly until you find someone to guide you.

    Though this may not be a choice so much as a predisposition.

  • Burk

    How about you make the claim that hundreds of years ago God (or aliens if you like) came down and gave everyone recipes for muffins. That’s why we have so many muffins today. If no one can remember how muffins came about, it works.

    An even more likely scenario is that some dude just made the whole thing up a few hundred years after anyone could prove otherwise.

  • Burk

    Notice that this is a satire of the proofs of God’s existance.

    It is very difficult to prove a thing, which is the main argument against Evolution and Rationalism in general. It is not, however, difficult to disprove a thing (so long as we keep our heads and avoid true skepticism). To this end, there is a LOT of evidence against the existence of God (at least the Christian god).

  • Burk

    actually, several Eastern religions are compatible. Almost every chinese citizen practices ancestor worship in addition to Buddhism or Christianity, for example. Doesn’t change the sentiment of your post, though

  • Burk

    what about non-Christians who suffer and Christians who prosper?

  • Burk

    tldr

  • Burk

    lol

  • Burk

    lollollollol

  • Burk

    HAHAHAHA

  • Burk

    Copernicus used reason and logic, and maybe a smattering of intuition. He was a great guy but a scientist before a poet. Let’s not go crazy.

  • Burk

    i hear you. it sucks when you suddenly find that you have very little in common with the people you love.

  • Burk

    actually, being paralyzed by fear is also an adaptation. most predators won’t attack if they aren’t hungry or threatened, but some will attack if you run.

  • Burk

    Most founding fathers were Dieists, actually, which bares little resemblance to today’s Christian (which, by your argument makes them non-Christians).

  • Francesc

    “There are 3 groups of religions”
    Budhists? Zeus? Thor? Mithra? Ra?
    If you mean religions believing in the Abrahamic god, how can you forget the muslims?
    Are you implying that catholics and protestant are so much related than jews and catholics? You know, it seems me so and that would be a LIE. So, to be fair you should have write:

    there are three groups of religions believeing in abrahamic god:
    1.- Jews
    2.- Catholics
    3.- Christians

    And then the christians divided themselves between

    3.1- Catholics
    3.2-

    3.x-
    (orthodoxes)
    3.x+ Others (like the catars)

    And then catholics splitted in many sects, some of them who believe in the authority of the pope and others who doesn’t (protestants)

    My point: there are an awful lot of sects in the christianism, and in that “tree” of the evolution of christianity, catholics and protestants are very very close one to another, Mike

  • Francesc

    Going on…
    “Todays christians practice our religions to what we know as the will of God”
    You know the will of god? Catholics claim too to know the will of god. Muslims know too the will of god. How is your “will of god” more certain that the will of god of suicide terrorists? Do you have any evidence?

    Your grandparents know too the will of god and they killed people because of that will. Where they wrong? How do you know? Weren’t they reading the same bible? Why aren’t you killing the people who works on sabbath? May it be possible that the “will” of god changes as our society’s morality change??

  • Francesc

    A little more…
    “Atheism as far as I am concerned was made up by men who are afraid to dedicate themselves to anything”
    Of course. And we are a bunch of inmoral people. Be real Mike!

    “The people who practice it are wasting their time.”
    We don’t practise “atheism”. It is NOT a religion. We are trying to do a better society. How is that wasting our time?

    “Maybe they provide some kind of service to their given society and maybe they are here so people like myself will cement themselves further into their religion which has proven to be the case here.”
    I agree. We are here because god did us, with the only purpose to prove your faith. You are the center of the Creation, Mike.
    On the other hand, maybe Satan did us to get you out of the truth way to heaven, lol.
    A secret: you are like Job, in the middle of a bet between God and Satan. So if God kills your family don’t worry because he will gave you another one if you pass his exam. That crazy tale is on the bible…

    “So maybe you guys aren’t a waste”
    Thanks. I was beginning to think that my life had no sense, but if you says so I’m really relieved

    “I would rather believe in multiple gods than to be a self proclaimed atheist.”
    A “self-proclaimed” atheist? So you are a self-proclaimed chrsitian, not a real one. I think you should believe in multiple gods, as each of them is equally probable. I suggest you begin with the FSM, who is the truly one. And the PIU next to it. What about worshipping the sun? I could suggest too that you should exclude the abrahamic ones, because they exclude the others

    “Any way when I say Christianity is not a religion I simply mean that it is a personal relationship with my Savior and not any religion in particular”
    So you have an imaginary friend? Cute!
    (btw, I know that each christian has his own god. How is that coherent is my question)

  • Francesc

    lol, sorry:

    1.-Jews
    2.-Catholics
    3.- Muslims

  • Mike

    What exactly is a deist? And exactly which atheist book did you draw this conclusion from? The whole reason the colonies were even founded was for freedom of religion. Are you going to tell me that was wrong too?

  • Mike

    God is not a circus performer. He will not jump thru hoops for you guys. You people have no idea what you are talking about. If He did one thing for you idiots He would have to do them for all you idiots. You actually think He or anyone for that matter wants to do that? Get real. Stop being childish.

  • Wolter

    Evil! Eeeeeeeeeevil!

    Burn the witch!
    Punish the blasphemer!
    Kill the infidel!
    Subjugate the savages!

    In the name of God!

  • Mike

    Wolter I thought you said you weren’t a Christian.

  • Mike

    No comment.

  • Wolter

    Yeah, that’s the standard church response.

  • LRA

    “If He did one thing for you idiots He would have to do them for all you idiots.”

    And why would this be a problem for an all powerful god? I mean, he gave empirical evidence to his enemies (Satan and the fallen angels), why not to us? Sorry, but I think we deserve it a bit more than Satan and the demons. Don’t you?

  • Roger

    Well? What empircal evidence/proof do you have to offer? You asked what proof would we like to see?

    How about ANY empirical evidence? C’mon. Give us some empirical, scientifically verifiable evidence.

    Further, if your “God” cares for humankind, the LEAST it could do is make its existence unequivocally evident and plain to humanity.

  • Mike

    only when what you say has no bearing on the topic at hand. Grow up.

  • Wolter

    > only when what you say has no bearing on the topic at hand. Grow up.

    Oh, but it has every bearing on what you’ve said, Mike.
    You have assigned to me the epithet “evil”, and so I now rebuke you.

    Doesn’t it strike you as the least bit hypocritical to call me evil for badmouthing your god, when your own holy book gives ample evidence to condemn him, and you yourself follow in the religious evil?

    Behold, a clip from “The Adventures of Mark Twain”:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3z2Pm7Iwg

    What I find particularly funny here is the ironic significance of this piece that seems to have been lost on everyone.
    Pretty much every single Christian who has watched this has reacted with horror as Satan completely destroyed the mud people, and even their ox who had done no wrong, because their petty squabbles and noises grieved him. Indeed, it was an act befitting the evil one, they will say.
    Yet these same pious individuals don’t even bat an eye when God does it:

    Genesis 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
    7: So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

    I’ve even had Christians willing to defend Yahweh (who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, unchanging) when their holy book describes him thus:

    Deuteronomy 20:16: However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
    17: Completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.

    And thus:

    Samuel 15:3: “Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”

    And you, Mike, are also afflicted by this religious evil, for you yourself have publicly advocated brainwashing in order to coerce others to follow your religion. Others of your kind are willing to go further, using the law to punish those who go against the wishes of your fictional god.
    It is of your kind that theocracies are made, and theocracies breed a most pungent, odious of evils. The few quips from my previous comment are but a small sample.

  • Mike

    What about them? You can prosper and suffer in more ways than one. You can be rich(prosper) and lose a child(suffer). Or you can have cancer (suffer) and have a place in heaven (prosper).

  • Mike

    Put yourself in His shoes for a minute. Come on your a big girl, you can take a bath after we’re done. Would you, being God, bow down to that level? Would you waste all of your time proving yourself to people bound for hell anyway? That is what seperates me from you. I don’t need all the empirical evidence you guys need. I didn’t even know empirical was even a word. Sounds like something from Star Wars. Turn to the darkside Mike. Anyway even though He could He won’t. His forgiveness and salvation are based on us having faith. I apologize for calling you guys idiots.

  • Mike

    Back to satan and his demons. Without God we are just as bound for hell as they are. We deeserve nothing more.

  • boomSLANG

    G[if you were 'God']Would you waste all of your time proving yourself to people bound for hell anyway?

  • boomSLANG

    Stupid gremlins!

    Mike: “[if you were 'God']Would you waste all of your time proving yourself to people bound for hell anyway?”

    What is “time” to a supposed timeless being?

    And “bound for hell anyway”? Lol. So much for that “free will” sh*t, huh?

  • Mike

    George Washington by all rights was a Christian. He was thought to be a deist I assume because he would not take communion. That act #1 is merely a ritual that is held in the church not commanded by God. Jesus did it with His disciples once but never said that it had to be done. Christians do it in His rememberance especially this time of year. #2 When communion is performed the person is told that anyone having contempt or ill feelings or any other thing that s not Godly in their heart should not take communion. Washington refused to take communion after the war I assume because of all that he had seen and done and did not feel that he was worthy to take it. Christians that I know don’t always do it. It doesn’t make them a deist.

  • LRA
  • Mike

    @Prick
    Nice. You kiss your mom with that mouth? Is that all you have to add to this conversation?
    At least try to act like you are older than 12.

  • Mike

    Well in light of that fact what proof is it would you like to see? You can’t see the wind but you feel it. What “empirical evidence” is there that would make you believe that there is a power higher than your egotistical self. Fallacy of negative proof, ha! That sounds smart. I’ll bet you patted yourself on the back after that.

  • Mike

    LRA thanks They still are closer to heaven than an atheist however.

  • Mike

    Hey Roger, nice to hear from another non-believer. I don’t have empirical evidence. And what?? I don’t need it. I have faith. But what would you like to see? I’ll work on it.

  • Niva Tuvia

    Mike, almost every atheist that comes to this site bases everything they say on what they know to be logic and reason. Though many of them were once believers, the concept of faith goes away with the concept of God. Emperical evidence is what they try to base their lives on, which is the opposite of basing it on faith. So, it’s only natural for them to expect evidence in place of faith.

  • Wolter

    > Your human definition and Gods definition of evil are not the same.

    Indeed. Pretty much all of the gods’ definitions of evil are the same: Do as I say or else you are evil.
    And so, Mike, you are evil. For you have rebelled against the wishes of Allah, and the wishes of Osiris and a host of other gods for that matter.

    > God wanting to eradicate and wipe out a bunch of non believing atheist scum, however is cleansing the land.

    Wow, I certainly wouldn’t want you in charge.

    > He has given a people every possible chance at redemption.

    Really… So how do you give an infant a chance at redemption, when it is unable to talk or reason?
    By what measure do you deem all animals in an area beyond redemption?

    > My God is not evil.

    Every other god would disagree. And so would I.

  • Mike

    Burk, If I told you a Guy would give you a Million dollars a week for life would you believe me? You would be skeptical at least. So lets say i introduced you to him and you agreed to take his money. All you have to do is go tell someone else about him. So you do. Everything is good, you tell some people family first of course cause you want to share you fortune with them and then 1 day they (anti money guys) say he is wrong. They say not to take his money and not only that but they want you to give back whatever you have left. Well here is the kicker, the guy doesnt stop giving so they kill him. And the anti money guys come to you and your family and they want your money. Otherwise they kill you too. S0 here you are. Do I give this back and pretend my family will be better off without it even though you can see how much it helped, and know you can’t go on without it. Selling out your family or do you refuse and die. Knowing that you are carrying on this guys goodness and his name and acts will be carried out for eternity. This is where we are seperated. Selling out is easier I suppose but I can’t live with myself being one. Judas couldn’t either.
    Now I can’t prove He was on this earth physically but I know by His works that are carried on through his family over the years that He was here. You can see it in the world around you.

  • Wolter

    There’s one flaw in your allegory, Mike:

    Money is real, and easily proven. Your god is with near certainty not real, and there is no plausible evidence of his “money”.

    Now I could just as easily start handing out miracle cures, and even show people how to make it themselves, on condition that they tell others about me and the cure. And some people will believe me, and take what I say at face value, because they are stupid. What’s more, they will start to believe that my miracle brew cured their ailments (due to the placebo effect).

    As more and more people come to believe, others who would normally not believe become convinced. After all, if so many others believe it, it must be true!

    Now I am a charlatan, who is giving them a vile mix of yak piss and snake oil, and they are gladly accepting this concoction. What’s more, they are so convinced of the truthfulness of my claims that they are willing to punish those who disparage me, even going to the lengths of torture or murder.

    So what has been accomplished here? Just another example of human folly.

  • http://vaia.deviantart.com Vaia

    I had seen it before, but thank you for linking me again. That’s just hysterical!

  • Mike

    The money given by this man was meant to show pure fact something tangible during this mans existence. Nothing more. His death was brought on by those who did not agree with him. So those around him carried on. And so on thru the ages. Martin Luther King will be discussed thru the ages as well. Nobody is going to die for him. Why will they die for Jesus?? MLK brought a message of peace and hope. Jesus a message of life ever after. With guys like you who are no where near the likes of MLK or Jesus you just take advantage of the human condition. The type jesus warned His disciples against.

  • Wolter

    Martin Luther did not convince others that he was a god.

    You’d be surprised at what people would do for a god. Just ask the Muslims.

  • http://custador.wordpress.com/ custador

    Funny, because when I read the old testament and the new testament, I could swear that god had a personality transplant in between…

  • Wolter

    > God wasn’t punishing the children. Yes He had them killed but at the fallacies of their parents.

    I see… So it’s OK to kill children as a punishment for their parents? OK to snuff out the life, and everything the child could have achieved, all because you want to cause pain to the parents?

    Talk about barbaric.

    > Have you ever told an infant to do something Wolter?

    Such an act would be futile, since an infant is not able to understand anything beyond “I’m hungry” and “I’m sleepy”.
    But since God said so, those infants MUST have been evil beyond redemption. Such a powerful god could not make a mistake about something like that, unless he never existed in the first place and these are primitive tribal stories from a time when retribution meant completely wiping out your enemies and everything they owned.

    > Sure you can do evil to something without a soul. God said kill they killed.

    Were the animals themselves evil? Why would a god with so much power just wholesale slaughter things that are not evil? Surely sorting the good from the bad would not be to taxing a task for a being of such immense power…

  • trj

    God wasn’t punishing the children. Yes He had them killed but at the fallacies of their parents.

    As usual the fundamentalist mind can excuse the inexcusable and make a virtue out of cruelty.

    You justify actions which you would otherwise gladly emphasize as examples of human evil. That’s an incredible double standard.

  • trj

    I’m arguing with you because I dislike your lack of human empathy and your dreadful opinions. It doesn’t matter that you use something I don’t believe in to justify it.

  • Wolter

    The problem, Mike, is that people with your fucked up mindset seek positions of power, and then use that power to further the goals of their religion. And if left to fester for long enough, they grow into an inquisition, or a witch trial, or a crusade, or worse.

  • http://custador.wordpress.com/ custador

    QFT

  • Mike

    Wolter wolter wolter, 1st of all your cursing is not necessary. If you continue in this direspectful tone you will force me to discontinue our debate until such a time that you can carry on in a mature manner. Honestly, I thought we were past such as that. Just because you are Godless doesn’t mean you have to be uncouth. Secondly, I do not seek any such power. I will leave that to the intellectuals like yourself. My mission isn’t one of self but one for all who seek the truth. You sound like you have me figured out, but I assure you that you are far from it. If I keep one wandering lost child of God from turning into you and Daniel and LRA and trj and all the others like you then I have succeded in my mission. End of story just as simple as that. That sir is my only goal. Sounds real scary doesn’t it? One soul. No witch trials ,inquisitions or crusades here. Just to save one lost soul from quitting and becoming you.

  • Mike

    He added Jesus. That is the only difference. I applaud your observation.

  • Elemenope

    “There’s an elephant in the room.”

    “Oh him? Yeah, I suppose so.”

    Why is there an elephant in the room?”

    “Who cares, it’s a small thing. Pay it no mind.”

  • http://custador.wordpress.com/ custador

    What, the only difference other than going from a vengeful, angry god to a benevolent, kind god, you mean? I suppose parenthood does mellow people out, but still…

  • Mike

    Wolter I told you once already, He had the children killed along with the women and old people because they were beyond redemption. Did you miss my story about Lot and sodom and gammorrah? The children along with their mommies and daddies and pigs and goats and whatever else lived there had to die. He gave them every chance. Lot could not find one among them, no not one who was saved. The reasoning that was given was because evil(mommy and daddy) begets evil(child) The children were destined to grow up just like their parents. God was preventing future interaction between His people and the evil ones who are on this earth. Did you catch that? Future I said. The children were the future of evil. Or eeeeeevil as you put it. I told you about reading the bible without proper guidence. It will do you more harm than good. James 22:1 says “Do not merely listen to the word and so decieve youselves. Do what it says.” In non Christian terms that means don’t just read the bible and call yourself educated. Go out and prove it. All you’re proving to me is that you know how to counter argue every little point I make.

  • Mike

    First off , hey!! We’ve not been formerly introduced. I’m Mike, a christian , father of 3 husband of one and a child of God.
    Now that you know me, you can draw you concllusions.
    By the way, I am 1 of the most empathetic creatures God has ever made. I’ve been taken advantage of on numerous occassions bcause of it. My opinions dear trj are not mine but from the bible. I just translate. Wolter needs all the help he can get.

  • Mike

    ok sure ????????

  • Elemenope

    Point is, poofing Jesus and then being Jesus is not like, y’know, a small change. To treat it like same-old-schtick-in-brand-new-clothes is to be either disingenuous, or not a careful reader.

  • Mike

    E, I am still lost. I’ve never been a genious so you will have to speak to me more slowly.

  • Mike

    does that mean que fire trucks?

  • Mike

    As goes the atheist motto. I could make a fortune selling the t-shirts.

  • trj

    Yeah, I’m sure you’re a nice enough person in your daily life, but in this debate you come across as the opposite, talking about how great it is when atheist scum is eradicated or how infanticide is a-ok as long as God is commanding it. That’s not empathetic.

    And it IS your opinions, as well as the Bible’s. Or are you saying you disagree with the Bible?

  • Roger

    Isn’t what you just wrote a bit of boastfulness? And aren’t Christians supposed to avoid boasting?

    And if you’re being taken advantage of, I’d say it’s not necessarily because of “empathy.” Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me, and so forth.

  • http://custador.wordpress.com/ custador

    Quoted For Truth :)

  • vorjack

    “What, the only difference other than going from a vengeful, angry god to a benevolent, kind god, you mean? ”

    Did God really mellow out? I mean, first off there’s the whole bit about requiring the humiliation, torture and death of his son before he could bring himself to forgive the human race for its ritual infractions.

    Then there’s the whole “apocalypse” thing, where Revelations predicts horror, war, oppression and genocide to come. All part of God’s plan, apparently.

    And there are the incidental slaying here and there, like the case of Ananias and Sapphira, where God kills two people for failing to pay their taxes.

    Sometimes it seems that God didn’t really change, just that he got a new PR agent.

  • Mike

    Vorjak, as you said the only way for us to be redeemed was for the sacrifice of God’s own lamb.
    As for the “apocalypse” thing, Ther is a way to avoid all that nonsense. For fear of sounding preachy I’ll let you figure out how to avoid it. Unless you don’t know then I would be happy to explain it.
    Now as for Ananias and his wife. As far as I can understand Ananias did not lie just to Peter But to God. Apparently God hates any sin directly related to Him.
    I for one am thankful for His PR change. He seems alot more approachable.

  • Mike

    trj can I call you terj for short? Listen, I never said it was great. My heart aches for you people. I am to love the sinner and hate the sin. That is the side I am on and why I find it hard to leave this site, there are so many like yourself who are lost. I wish you could all see how wrong you all are. And truly I say that out of love and not hate. I don’t want to see you die without God in your life. My opinions just happen to go in line with the bible. I can’t say that I totally agree with everything or understand but I am not turning my back on Him just because of that. I never left my earthly mom and dad because they did things that were beyond my comprehension. I don’t know how you could do it.

  • trj

    Yes, everything can be justified for a higher cause, can’t it? Infanticide, genocide, pestilence, ripping children from their mothers’ womb, killing millions in a global flood.

    I fail to see the moral superiority of a god that did such things. If you want to convert atheists, don’t do it by justifying those horrific acts.

  • boomSLANG

    Edit, above: Should have been “difficult to achieve”, on the last line.

    (an edit feature would be outstanding!)

  • LRA

    “If I keep one wandering lost child of God from turning into you and Daniel and LRA and trj and all the others like you then I have succeded in my mission. End of story just as simple as that. ”

    What’s wrong with me? I’ve read widely. I’ve studied at some of the finest institutions in these United States (like Columbia University). I’ve worked hard to help others (like when I was a special education teacher). I’ve spent significant chunks of time overseas to learn about other cultures, and have studied no less than three foreign languages. I spent years weighing the evidence and seeking “truth”. I came by my conclusions honestly.

    Can you say the same? Have you really explored what the bible actually says? Have you read it cover to cover? Have you looked at the many, many interpretations, or do you take it literally? Have you really though through your position?

  • Mike

    Listen Boomer, God sent all His people out into the highways and hedges to win souls to Christ. Tat is the great commission. Your sarcasm has not fallen on deaf ears. There are people who are not going to be saved but not for lack of people like myself trying. You guys continue to make your stand and I know what it is. I will make my stand and we will let all who are “on the border” decide. I am doing my job, you guys are doing yours. This prophecy that you speak of is not going to come to fruition. Satan needs some warriors too.

  • Wolter

    > The reasoning that was given was because evil(mommy and daddy) begets evil(child) The children were destined to grow up just like their parents.

    Wow! You are so wise, Mike!
    You know, I think we should emulate your god in society!
    I think we should not only execute murderers, but their offspring as well! After all, evil begets evil.
    Rapists? We need them off the streets! Best to keep their children on the sex offender registry as well so we can snuff out the evil at the source!
    Terrorists? Well, terrorists beget terrorists, so we really should just nuke the entire middle east and get some people of the One True Faith in there.

    Yes, we could solve a lot of problems with your bloodthirsty, baby killing god’s perfect example.

    > The children were the future of evil.

    You know, the crusaders believed that, too. That’s one of their justifications for rampaging about, leaving destroyed “evil” villages in their wake.

    > I told you about reading the bible without proper guidence.

    Yes, I know. Only with sufficient brainwashing can you follow the One True Interpretation, much like how you can only understand the One True Interpretation of the Quran if you read the Arabic version.

    After all, you must first believe before you can be given the reasons for your belief. Otherwise they might sound like a load of BS.

  • Wolter

    > 1st of all your cursing is not necessary.

    What? Saying “fucked up”? That’s not cursing; it’s commentary.

    > If you continue in this direspectful tone you will force me to discontinue our debate until such a time that you can carry on in a mature manner.

    That’s rich, considering your previous tirades.

    > Just because you are Godless doesn’t mean you have to be uncouth.

    Ooh! the backhanded insult! I love it!

    > Secondly, I do not seek any such power.

    Yes, I’m sorry, that came out wrong. I didn’t mean that YOU would seek power. I was referring to those who share your fucked up mindset AND seek powerful positions to exercise that mindset, such as James Dobson and George Bush.

    > That sir is my only goal. Sounds real scary doesn’t it?

    Not really. You’re only going to get the stupid ones.
    And hey, if I manage to turn a borderline person away from the clutches of that evil religion, I’d consider my time well spent.

  • Wolter

    You see, nobody actually CARES what fantasy you believe in; What we care about is when you bring your religious claptrap into the political arena.
    I just thank my lucky stars I live in a secular society, where theocracy is resisted.

  • Roger

    “If you continue in this direspectful tone you will force me to discontinue our debate until such a time that you can carry on in a mature manner.”

    Well, that would be a blow to the culture.

  • Wolter

    “I know you are but what am I?”

  • Sunny Day

    “My God can do anything. ”

    Except for, in your own words, redeeming people.

  • Roger

    My God can do anything. What can yours do?

    Are you serious?!? Do you have brain damage or something? Seriously, do you need medication to get the brain chemistry right? You do realize you’re posting on an atheist’s blog. There will be no godbot-pissing contests, as those of us here who find godbots tedious and such probably don’t believe in the existence of ANY god, gods or other supernatural entities.

  • Mike

    LRA, while your credentials are extraordinary, your beliefs are what is important. I have not read the bible cover to cover, I have not graduated from any kind of college much less gone to college. So what? That makes you wiser than me? Your intellect has made you blind. You hide your fears just like all the other guys behind the creds you think justify your position. Here is quote from James:” Do not merely LISTEN to the Word and so decieve yourselves. DO WHAT IT SAYS. ” Just like I told Wolly, you have to do more than just read. You have to walk with Him. If yous study in a worldly manner you are only going to comprehend what is worldly. Now if you study with Gods guidence and pray for comprehension and His wisdom then you will open your eyes to what the bible is trying to say.

  • LRA

    Well, I have read the bible cover to cover. I also sought out apologists to help me rationalize the inconsistent bits. I sought, earnestly, to understand and live the bible when I was a christian, but that was an absolute dead end. So I left.

    Read the bible cover to cover for yourself. Maybe you’ll see what I’m talking about.

  • trj

    You ask if LRA with her life, her experience with religion, and her education is wiser than you.

    I’m not trying to be inflammatory, but neither do I want to be politically correct, so my answer to that would be: Yes, all things equal, I’d say the chance is for LRA being the wisest. This is an observation based on simple statistics.

    Somehow you want her intellect to work against her, which is a silly (not to mention very convenient) argument that never fails to amaze me.

    LRA studied the Bible, intensively it seems, but in the end she discarded it. Of course, you’ll never accept her conclusion. She must have overlooked something. Maybe she’s blinded by her own intellect, yada yada. Because it is unthinkable that you yourself might be wrong.

  • LRA

    I’m not a warrior for satan. I’m a warrior for using your brain to actually think through your positions.

  • trj

    If we admit to being disciples for Satan will that stop you from proselytizing to us?

  • rodneyAnonymous

    The second-greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

  • Mike

    If you continue down this path you are. As a matter of fact Satan loves you guys.

  • Mike

    To what end? I cannot believe that you were what you were and then gave up. Make me understand where you are coming from. Have you ever aked Jesus to come into your life? Honestly? That is not a dig. It’s an honest I want to know question.

  • Wolter

    > Have you ever aked Jesus to come into your life? Honestly?

    My guess is that his answer would be similar to your answer to: “Have you ever prayed to Allah and asked Him to show you the way of truth? Honestly?”

  • rodneyAnonymous

    “Have you ever aked Jesus to come into your life?”

    Yes, absolutely.

    I think most American atheists you’ll meet were raised or otherwise used to be Christian.

  • rodneyAnonymous

    Maybe not “most” but certainly “many”.

  • Mike

    AMEN BROTHER!!!

  • rodneyAnonymous

    Heh, might not want to be so quick to agree, the first-greatest was not existing at all :P

  • rodneyAnonymous

    (…in my joke; not supposed to be a convincing argument of anything)

  • Mike

    Poor Rodney, I forgot where I was for a sec. Yep you fooled me. Ha ha. But the first was convincing Eve to sin against God.

  • rodneyAnonymous

    You believe in the literal truth of Genesis? Wow.

  • LRA

    Well, Mike, if you want to believe in a pretend boogey monster, then go ahead. It’s real hard to do any kind of convincing when a spiritual entity fails to materialize. If satan did a great job of convincing me he isn’t real, then so did god.

    I hope there’s a god, but I’m not going to hold my breath, and I’m sure as heck not going to follow your vile religion blindly.

  • LRA

    ps, Mike, as I said read the bible cover to cover. Then you might catch on to what I’m talking about.

  • Mike

    Wolter, you are starting to sound frustrated. Frutration leads to childish tirades. You sound like a cursing blathering fool. This is my last warning.

  • Wolter

    Temper temper, Mike.

  • Mike

    While all of that sounds barbaric, it does to me too, it was necessary for Gods movement to bring Jesus into the world.
    You really give me a headache.

  • Wolter

    Yeah, nothing like some good olde tyme slaughter to get the ol’ forgiveness juice flowing, eh Mike?

    I mean, it’s not like it could be avoided, is it? Especially not for a God that can do anything.
    Makes you wonder just how much of a sadistic bastard he is.

  • Mike

    you forgot that sound when you give someone a raspberry. What are you 6?

  • Wolter

    Hang on… Wasn’t Satan supposed to be incapable of love?

  • Wolter

    No, he’s got too much of an emotional investment in his belief to be dissuaded so easily.
    Unfortunately, it also produces a reason-proof barrier.

  • LRA

    Thanks for that, trj! :)

    To Mike- I was a sincere and earnest christian. I did everything imaginable to make it work. It didn’t.

  • Mike

    You guys are all honorable for standing up with LRA. But she still didn’t answer my question.
    “Did you ask Jesus to come into your life?”
    @Rodney, If you aked Him into your life, then the Holy Spirit is still inside you. You can’t unsave yourself no matter how smart you think you are. Or where you studied, traveled, helped, or how much time and effort you put into Daniels Church of born again disbelievers. You can’t just wake-up and say “ooh, I think I’ll turn back to the lost world today cause God didn’t show up and do what I asked Him to.” It doesn’t work like that. God loves you, and once you are saved then you are His.

  • Wolter

    Did you hear that, Rodney? You’ve got a license to sin, dude! You’re untouchable!

    This feels like some B-rated movie or something…

  • Wolter

    Oh and Mike, you still haven’t answered my question.

    “Have you prayed to Allah and asked Him to show you the way of truth?”

  • LRA

    Mike, let me answer you directly:

    I *did* ask Jesus to come into my life and my heart. I asked in prayer and I asked out loud. I actually prayed this prayer over and over, just in case I had done it wrong somehow. I also told God that the only will I wanted to follow was God’s will. I didn’t want my own will anymore.

    As I said, I was an earnest Christian.

  • Mike

    Sunny, He only redeems those who ask.

  • Mike

    Roger I do realize I’m on an atheist blog. If I were anywhere else my debating would be kinda silly now wouldn’t it? Preaching to the choir is for preachers. I like to jump in the fire with both feet and get it stirred up if you know what I mean. So the more hateful you are to me the better.

  • NaJackO

    that actually goes both ways…

  • Wolter

    Indeed, it can.

    However, I can change my mind as new evidence becomes available. He can’t.
    That’s the difference between knowledge and dogma.

  • LRA

    Mike-

    Science is a very revealing practice. I’m glad to be a scientist. It makes me happy to discover new things. Our world is an amazing place, creator or no creator.

    As a person of science (molecular biology and neuroscience, specifically) I have found joy and happiness. I also understand better now that things like love are controlled by hormones and neurotransmitters. But love still feels great!

    I don’t mind the world being demystified. I also know now that the struggle to be ideal (Jesus-like, or perfect, or whatever you want to call it) is a total waste of time. I laugh at my mistakes now (and learn from them) instead of fearing them.

    I have freedom and confidence now that Christianity took away from me.

  • Wolter

    I’d also be interested in why you ask questions but refuse to answer similar ones. Why are you holding out on everyone?

    > God still works in your life whether you will admit it or not.

    517. ARGUMENT FROM STUPID BUMPER STICKER (II)
    (1) God said it.
    (2) I believe it.
    (3) That settles it.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

    > It won’t bring peace and love. It will not offer that capacity in any human. That only comes from One. And no Wolter, its not from ones self.

    You seem awfully sure of that. How would you explain the love in peoples who have never heard, let alone accepted your fairy tale?

    > Your arrogance is showing again. Always about you.

    In what way? I don’t recall talking about myself much. Can you point to any specific examples? Because it sounds like you might be lying.

    > Wolter you make a good right hand man for Danny boy. He lies to get his point made.

    Does he? Can you point to a specific example? Because I would have to conclude that it is you who is lying otherwise.

    > Your genuine hatred towards me and all of my other brothers never ceases to amaze me.

    What hatred? I don’t hate you any more than I would a crazy person. I don’t mind that you’re around; I just wouldn’t want you in a position of power.

    > The funny thing is he might also be saved and he has you fighting for him in this pointless meaningless fight you have chosen to champion.

    If it’s so pointless, then why are you here?

    > So in your mastery of all that is cynical and sarcastic and hatefilled you could be fighting for one of Gods chosen.

    I could be, but I’d rather champion things that are real.

    > Your Christian hating, lie riddled propaganda will not change that.

    This from a guy who advocates brainwashing…

  • trj

    My mission isn’t one of self but one for all who seek the truth. … If I keep one wandering lost child of God from turning into you and Daniel and LRA and trj and all the others like you then I have succeded in my mission. End of story just as simple as that. That sir is my only goal.

    If that’s not proselytizing, I don’t know what is. Don’t be dishonest, Mike. It doesn’t befit a man on a mission.

  • Sunny Day

    “I will never sink to”

    TL DR

  • Sunny Day

    “Sunny, He only redeems those who ask.”

    So this god fella can only do the things you say he can do. That’s convenient. Maybe I should make up one of these gods like you did and see if I can get people to worship and give me money.

  • Roger

    Soooo…you’re a masochist? Lovely.

  • rodneyAnonymous

    No, it’s easier to argue against hatred than reason.

  • http://notsodailyfrench.com Briega

    Wolter, I’ not sure that the fact that the bible “endlessly contradicts common sense” is a strong argument, because, according to the common sense, the earth is flat and the sun runs around it. Oh. Does it? Nevertheless, thank you for your entertaining posts.


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