Irrefutable proof that Baal exists!

June 3, 2008 By 242 Comments

Note: This is satire.

I had lost three games of crazy eights and was getting desperate. I thought that perhaps I was losing because I was an atheist — what if there really was a god, and he was teaching me a lesson?

But which god was thwarting me? I deny the existence of millions of gods. As I thought about some of the ancient gods, I decided it might be Baal.

I had blasphemed old Baal throughout my former Christian life. This might be payback.

I didn’t want to lose again. So naturally I bowed my head, raised my hands to heaven, and prayed aloud, “O Great Baal, smile upon this game with your great grace and bounty.”

My wife looked at me a little strangely, but I didn’t care. This was about winning.

We played again. It was a miracle — I won! I had prayed to Baal and won! But I thought, Maybe this was just a fluke. It’s probable that after losing three times I could win one. So before the next game I prayed:

“O Great Baal, thank you for your blessing. But if you are truly real and are God above all other gods and idols, let me win this game as well. Then I will worship you as the One True God.”

The stakes were high. If there was a higher god than Baal, he would stop Baal from getting the glory and cause me to lose. If Baal was the highest god, on the other hand, I would win.

I won. A double miracle!

I present this as irrefutable evidence that Baal is the One True God and that he works mighty miracles among us today. If you do not worship Baal, his anger will burn against you and he will send you to hell for all eternity. So I implore you, believe!

Filed Under: Articles, Evidence, God, Humor 242 Comments
  • Wormwood

    Yeah yeah, that’s really cute.

    But I wonder if you’ll be laughing when you stand before Osiris on the day of your judgment.

    Not so clever now, are we?

    • http://www.yermom.com Joe Mamma

      ROFL

    • Mel in Montreal

      Love it…

      • Jimmy

        Apparently, Baal has already been exposed as false in the Bible. I think my professor referred to this as the “Great God-Off”; it’s in 1 Kings 18.

        Basically, Elijah challenges the priests of Baal to see whose god would win. They slaughter two bulls and make up two fires. Whichever one could set it on fire just by praying, wins. The Baal priests try it, while being cajoled by Elijah, but fail. Elijah then pours three barrels of water on the fire, prays once, and it goes up in flames.

        Then they slaughter the Baalian priests. Certainly among the most entertaining passages in the Bible.

        I’d like to see the Pope give this one a go against Ayatollah Khomenei.

        • Iconoclast

          Jimmy, why the Deuce were Baal’s prophets deserved to be slaughtered? Whence your sense of justice?

          “Then they slaughter the Baalian priests. Certainly among the most entertaining passages in the Bible.”

          I can equally said that YHWH had been exposed to be FALSE BY ME. I am cursing your sky-daddy now, asking if he exists, then let the ceiling falling upon my head, killing me. Nothing happens. Utter your last prayers, I’m coming for your wretched life!

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    This is a true story, by the way. On my honor.

  • http://www.wazzasworthlesswitterings.blogspot.com wazza

    Wormwood: Thoth is the judge, not Osiris.

    It’s all within the bounds of probability. You can’t prove anything. Also, I’m worried about the morality problem… How can you call “good” a god who demands the sacrifice of children?

    wow, I could have c&ped that from an argument with a christian, which is telling and quite sad.

    • Mike

      To Wazza:

      Baal didn’t demand sacrifice of children. Those are christian lies to slander a rival God.

      Truth be told, the whole book of Genesis is stolen from Sumerian mythology. The God Enlil was ruler of the territory known as the E.din. Enlil was the crown prince of Heaven. His older (half) brother, Enki, god of water, knowledge, life, wisdom, healing, and magick, put his new creations, Adapu and Hawah (Adam and Eve – 2 of the first humans) in a Garden which was in the territory of the Edin/Eden. Enki was also the serpent in the Garden who gave Adam and Eve knowledge – which, in the original story, was the ability to reproduce since Adam and Eve were created by splicing the “life essence” of the most advanced primates on the Earth with the “life essence” of the Gods. Mankind was said to be half-ape, half-god and thus, as a mule, could not reproduce. Enki realized this, but only after putting them in the garden, so he returned in order to give mankind the ability to have sex. Enki’s symbol, the serpent, was often seen as two serpents, intertwined – exactly like a DNA double-helix. His sacred number was 4 or 40 – there are 4 nucleotides in DNA.

      The point of all of this is, Christianity was actually BUILT upon slander and blasphemy of other Gods who predated the buybull by hundreds to thousands of years. These people then STOLE all the original stories, turned the gods into villains, and removed all the relevant knowledge from the population. Which is why if, for example, the church caught you in possession of one of the Runes, you were put to death, IMMEDIATELY.

      The Sumerian God Enlil was the original “Baal” – Baal means “Lord.” He was an Air god. He was Lord over all that flies – including the chariots/ships of the Gods when they descended to the Earth. He was also Lord of the city of Zebulon – he became known as Baelzebub, and his title was corrupted into “Lord of the flies.”

      Enki, of course, who was the Creator of humanity in one of the oldest religions on Earth, is now known as Satan.

      Thanks, jeeeeeezus!!

      • http://www.exposingchristianity.com Mike

        Oh, by the way -

        There WAS a god back then who DID demand sacrifice of children. Babies burned alive.

        His name was Moloch.

        Christians try to pass him off as being an alias of “Satan” when in fact, he was part of the Hebrew pantheon back when they were polytheistic. Then eventually they dropped all the other gods and changed Moloch’s name to Yahweh. Judaism and Christianity soon followed.

        Don’t believe me? Look it up in the 1973 edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

        “God” and “The Devil” are backwards. This is why the world is the way it is – these abrahamic religions villified nature worship and propped up their psychopathic “god” in its place. Anyone who believes in the judeo-christian-islamic version of “God” is either delusional, horrendously misled, or downright evil.

        • http://www.chucklasker.com Chuck Lasker

          Actually, Mike, God was heavily into killing children:

          ‘When you are living in the towns that the LORD your God gives you, you may hear that some worthless men of your nation have misled the people of their town to worship gods that you have never worshipped before. If you hear such a rumour, investigate it thoroughly; and if it is true that this evil thing did happen, then kill all the people in that town and all their cattle too. Destroy that town completely. Bring together all the possessions of the people who live there and pile them up in the town square. Then burn the town and everything in it as an offering to the LORD your God. It must be left in ruins for ever and never again be rebuilt’ (Deuteronomy 13:12-16).

          ‘[W]e captured and destroyed every town, and put everyone to death, men, women, and children. We took the cattle and plundered the towns’ (Deuteronomy 2:34-35).

          ‘We destroyed all the towns and put to death all the men, women, and children, just as we did in the towns that belonged to King Sihon of Heshbon. We took the cattle and plundered the towns’ (Deuteronomy 3:6-7).

          ‘When the LORD you God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. Take her to your home … Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since you forced her to have intercourse with you, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her’ (Deuteronomy 21:10-14).

          ‘So the assembly sent twelve thousand of their bravest men with the orders, “Go and kill everyone in Jabesh, including the women and children. Kill all the males, and also any woman who is not a virgin”‘ (Judges 21:10-11).

          ‘Babylon, you will be destroyed. Happy is the man who pays you back for what you have done to us – who takes your babies and smashes them against a rock’ (Psalm 137:8-9).

          • http://www.exposingchristianity.com Mike

            I KNOW “god” was into sacrificing children. That’s exactly what I am saying.

            “God” is the true evil. And the one known as “Satan” is not what we have been taught to believe. At all. “Satan” is the light-bringer and stands for liberation and knowledge, and was framed to be viewed as “evil” so that all the knowledge of the ancient world would be forbidden and forgotten.

            Christians and related religions perform all sorts of heinous, horrific, evil acts, and then they blame those acts on their scapegoats, namely Satan and the Demons. “Satan” and the Demons with their Goetic/Gothic names are actually a set of names that were given to mankind’s **Original** Gods. Many of these names are directly related to their original Sumerian, Egyptian, Babylonian, Akkadian, Vedic etc. names. Amon being one of the most classic examples.

            Amon Ra, the supreme deity of Egypt, who was known to Sumerians as Marduk (and was at one point, the head of the pantheon), is Enki’s eldest son in Sumerian Mythology. Enki, the original Serpent God, became Satan, and Amon appears as Demon #7 in King Solomon’s Goetia. The description will usually read something like, “Amon: The supreme deity of the Egyptians.” Go ahead and google it right now, and see what you get.

            Even John Milton in Paradise Lost acknowledges that the Pagan Gods and Satan and the Demons are one and the same. Though a devout Christian, most people would argue that Milton wound up painting Satan as the hero of the story, rebelling against a tyrannical god.

            Yet, the idea of a truly all-powerful god who knows everything and can do anything had never been seen until Judeo-Christianity hit the scene.

            They took the original religions, chopped them up and wrote the buybull with them, stealing the Pagan legends and passing them off as their own, while they go around the world, forcibly converting pagans into christians. Those who don’t convert, die. Why? Because Christianity controls people. Paganism doesn’t. You can’t enslave a Pagan population like you can enslave a Christian one. That’s what Christianity was DESIGNED TO DO.

            It is a self-replicating virus of the mental/spiritual/emotional/psychic/psychological variety.

            Whether you believe in the Pagan gods literally or not is besides the point. Christians and related ilk destroy, kill, steal, rape, lie, cheat and murder to advance their anti-life agenda, and THEN they point the finger of blame at their cosmic enemies who have NOTHING to do with it: they brainwash the population into believing that these evils which THEY perform are actually the work of The Original Pagan Gods of humanity to whom Christians refer to as “The Demons of Hell.” Satan and the Demons can be traced back to specific Pagan deities if you do enough research, but knowledge is sinful. Enki/Ptah became Satan, Enlil became Baelzebub, Inanna/Ishtar/Isis/Ashroteth became Astaroth, and Samyaza aka Utu aka Shamash is Azazel. These ancient Gods wound up in Judeo-christian texts as monsters and demons. There are countless texts denigrating and blaspheming these gods and the freedoms and knowledge they represented. These four deities in particular: Enki, Enlil, Inanna and Utu are the 4 highest ranking Gods of Hell, (the crown princes), and they are 4 of the highest ranking deities in all of Sumerian, Babylonian, and Egyptian mythology, among others. That’s why Egypt and Babylon (aka Babel) are framed as “cities of sin” in the bible where evil flourished, such as when Moses cursed his people for worshipping the Golden Calf (which represents Pagan Divinity) – because these were PAGAN societies with Pagan deities!! Allah/Yahweh/Jehova and his fear-based doctrine of complete and total obedience and enslavement was a completely foreign concept to humanity at the time. But it was force-fed to the population after it gained enough momentum and power, and the results have been catastrophic for mankind as a whole, while those select few who control the religion behind the scenes enjoy the high life, laughing all the way to the bank while everyone else suffers in ignorance. And they are able to do this ONLY because the whole system is set up to curse and blaspheme all the older religions and their deities, while stealing the attributes of their gods!!

            They have thus “cornered the market” on what is considered “religious” or “spiritual” – and because there *IS NOTHING SPIRITUAL ABOUT IT* – it makes the average THINKING person discard spirituality altogether. They have made “Spirituality” synonymous with “angels” and “jeezus” and all of this worthless spiritually devoid bullshit that you either become a deluded Christian or a jaded atheist. But either way, the real and lasting benefits of TRUE spirituality are lost. And the people running the world capitalize on the resulting lack of awareness, lack of health and lack of consciousness.

            This is why the church HATES science. Because everything of the “magickal” or “spiritual” has a scientific explanation. Science and mysticism meet at a certain point, once you advance far enough. Quantum physics is starting to scratch the surface as we speak. The church HATES science because if mankind advances far enough, science and spirituality will each prove the other to be true, and BOTH will prove Christianity to be FALSE.

            Because christianity is not spiritual in the least. It is a mind-control program that was engineered to REPLACE spirituality.

            Satan is represented by the dragon and the serpent. Anyone who knows about spirituality (which was largely preserved in the East, where Christianity and Islam had a hard time penetrating) KNOWS that the serpent represents the kundalini. If you don’t know what the kundalini is, then look it up. This was Satan’s gift to humanity. The original story of the Garden of Eden was a story of Gods blessing mankind with spiritual and sexual gifts. The christian version is about original sin and the “fall” of mankind. Great. So now it’s a sin to even be BORN!?

            The serpent was revered and worshipped around the ENTIRE ANCIENT WORLD. This is why the Dragon is STILL beloved in the Far East as a symbol of wealth, strength, power, luck and protection.

            It is the biggest hoax ever devised. They have framed our original Gods and inverted good and evil in order to enslave the world.

            • Francesc

              “They have framed our original Gods and inverted good and evil in order to enslave the world”
              Depends of what do you mean as “original”. reading your comments I almost had the impression that you actually believed Summer’s myth origin more than abrahamic’s myth origin, when both of them are, well, myths.

              Moreover, you are speaking about “the church” as if it was a conscient being all over the history, wich is unprobable, and you use that word to name pre-Jesus religion -wich would be an anachronism.

              “This is why the church HATES science. Because everything of the “magickal” or “spiritual” has a scientific explanation. Science and mysticism meet at a certain point, once you advance far enough. Quantum physics is starting to scratch the surface as we speak. The church HATES science because if mankind advances far enough, science and spirituality will each prove the other to be true, and BOTH will prove Christianity to be FALSE”
              Church hates science (I don’t know if “hate” is the best word) because it denies faith. Mysticism requires faith. Please if you are going to argue for mysticism against religion try keeping quantum physics out of the debate, or else you may like to provide some evidences for a link between quantum physics and mysticism, if possible beyond numerology ( the number of Baal happens to be the number of nucleotids? And so?)

            • http://www.exposingchristianity.com Mike

              No, higher mysticism DOES NOT require faith. AT ALL.

              For a REAL mystic, who is ADVANCED, their mystical experiences are as real as walking, talking, eating, breathing. They see auras like you can see the sun. It isn’t faith, it is knowledge and experience.

              These are powers and abilities that mankind used to have but they DON’T anymore. Largely because of false religion. Put your arm in a cast for 5 years, then try to use it. It will have atrophied away, right? The same is true of our spiritual abilities. You don’t believe in it because you have never experienced it. How do you convince a blind man that the stars exist? He’s never seen such a thing.

              Why do you think there are yogis who can levitate, or orders of monks who spend nights in the freezing himalayas wearing nothing but a sheet? They have ancient knowledge that has been hidden and destroyed. This is why Communist China marched on Tibet and annihilated it. Tibet’s secrets are too powerful to be tolerated by the powers that be, and they know it. It’s one of the world’s oldest civilizations. But Tibet’s geographical location protected it for hundreds of years. But not anymore.

              Of course, you probably don’t think these things exist. The only way to know for sure is to see it with your own eyes.

              And yes, The Sumerian myth IS THE ORIGINAL. So what if you call it a “myth”?? What does that have to do with WHOSE MYTH IT WAS IN THE FIRST PLACE. The parallels between the original and the stolen biblical version are incredible. Sumerian myth has the earliest mention of Eden & the serpent, because the Garden of Eden was *IN* Sumeria. Even the Bible acknowledges that!! Sumerian writing is also one of the earliest sources mentioning a great flood (though the sumerian version also had a specific story about a young man named Ziusudra and an ark that Enki had him build….), and yes, the Bible stole it all from them.

              No the church isn’t exactly the same throughout history obviously. But the MO remains the same. You’re missing the point. Sounds like you have some Christian sympathies and you’re trying to defend it. The Bible has had books added and removed and translated and re-translated, but the basic effect is always the same – spiritual confusion and atrophy while the people at the top rake in more and more power and wealth.

              Not to mention the fact that you are calling these stories “myths” but they have a PROFOUND effect on the psychology of the human race. They aren’t just “MYTHS” they are how we see the world. Changing a detail here or there can have a huge ripple effect on a culture, obviously.

              Not to mention the fact that there is a lot of evidence pointing to the idea that angels, Demons, and Gods worshipped throughout all of time are actually extremely advanced extraterrestrials who were once physically on the Earth……. but I digress.

              Wake up and stop defending the indefensible.

            • http://www.exposingchristianity.com Mike

              also, Abrahamic tradition goes back 6,000 years at the MOST.

              Sumerian civilization goes back thousands of years farther than that. Easily. The Sphynx of Egypt was built in the Age of Leo (hence it being a lion) over 10,000 years ago. I have seen it in person and I have been inside the pyramids, which glow with a hint of an inexplicable blue light. The age of these monuments is why there is water damage on the sphynx. There hasn’t been water that high in Egypt since prehistoric times. The Gods, when they were here, knew that the Earth was going to be attacked, and they knew they would not be able to stay, and so they left those monuments behind as a testament to the TRUTH of humanity’s origins and divine potential.

              Wake up.

            • Roger

              Holy wall o’text, Batman! Dude, what are you smoking?

            • Sunny Day

              “I have been inside the pyramids, which glow with a hint of an inexplicable blue light.”

              The Batshit Insanity is strong with this one.

            • http://www.exposingchristianity.com Mike

              Yeah. The pyramids. I’ve been there. You jealous or something? If you say it doesn’t exist, then it doesn’t exist, right? lol. You haven’t had a single spiritual experience of your life, no? How pitiful. Yes, they glow. A bit of light comes from them. I am not the only one who has seen it with my own eyes. No, I’m not “insane.” You’re just foolish.

              Study the pyramids and you will find that there is “no possible way” for the Egyptians to have been able to see inside of them. There is not a single place in any of the pyramids to hold torches. There is not a trace of soot ANYWHERE inside ANY of the pyramids, including the ceiling, which is where soot would naturally collect IF they had used torches. Sunlight does not penetrate tons upon tons of solid stone, either.

              So it would be absolutely pitch black in there…. so how did they sculpt all of those statues and carvings with absolutely no light?

              They had a “technology” that modern man wishes to deny their having. Because modern man is stupid enough to think that they are the pinnacle of existence. Modern man is stupid enough to think that they are the best that is, and the best that ever was. Man is so arrogant.

              If all of this sounds “crazy” to you, maybe you should do more research into ancient civilization and the mysteries of how they came to exist and came to build structures that modern man could not (including the pyramids of giza, which many modern physicists and architects cannot figure out and have admitted that something more was at work). The History Channel has a great documentary called “Ancient Aliens.” The evidence is more than compelling.

              The point is, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are false religions – spiritually speaking, everything that is worth anything came from Paganism, mankind’s original “religions,” which are based on the Natural World (and in many respects will eventually be proven by science and is not threatened by science and promotes science as it has nothing to hide), unlike christianity, which is fear-based, guilt-based, and full of lies, anti-life, anti-science, and anti-human.

              Everyone can believe whatever the Hell they want to, and I would expect most of the people in a site like this to already be suspicious of all religion and all spirituality. But the more you understand REAL spirituality, and where REAL spiritual knowledge came from, and if you are fortunate enough to have this knowledge and the experiences that go with the use of this knowledge, the *more* heinous Christianity becomes.

              That’s right. Atheists think Christianity is atrocious. But many Pagans would find Christianity to be far, far worse, as they understand how much of a corruption and a lie it is. They can compare it to the original and see the intent behind it; moreover, they can see the overwhelming volume of just exactly what has been lost as a result of these false religions.

              Atheists would argue “it’s all crazy and it’s all stupid” because they don’t know better – jeezus has dominated the scene and he’s full of shit. So they dismiss it all. Which is fine. It is certainly far better than being Christian.

              Other people know better – humanity used to be more highly evolved, more connected to his fellow wo/man, more connected to and aware of the Earth, and more empowered in life. These are the results of REAL spirituality – NOT living for one’s death like christians do. (the belief that this life is sinful but the afterlife is perfect)

              For this reason, a person who has truly experienced the power of the soul would most likely find Christianity the greatest evil the world has ever known. Because it is a boldfaced lie, from bottom to top. A lie with massive repercussions. A lie, engineered for a specific purpose. It was NOT created by some people “who were trying to understand the world” or who “gave it their best shot” and didn’t know any better. It was created specifically to remove knowledge and dumb down the population so we could all be enslaved through guilt, fear, and ignorance and powerlessness. It was evil from the start and will be evil until the day it is finally destroyed, once and for all.

            • Siberia

              They had a “technology” that modern man wishes to deny their having. Because modern man is stupid enough to think that they are the pinnacle of existence. Modern man is stupid enough to think that they are the best that is, and the best that ever was. Man is so arrogant.

              ROFL.

              I’m insulted on the behalf of Egyptians, who WERE competent more than enough to build awesome things with what they had, but whose talent and hard work is always downplayed by mystical nutjobs.

            • Sunny Day

              MIke, those pills you are taking, you are supposed to EAT them, not trade them to your friends in the electroshock wing for more internet time.

              “Yeah. The pyramids. I’ve been there.”

              That light you mentioned, it must be documented somewhere, or did it only appear to you? Did you go to the Pizza Hut afterwards, or did the aliens wisk you right back home?

              “There is not a trace of soot ANYWHERE inside ANY of the pyramids, including the ceiling, which is where soot would naturally collect IF they had used torches.”

              Why would they need to use torches? Isn’t it simpler to do all the carvings before you put down the next layer of stone? I’s a matter of finding what you are looking for. If you go looking for superpowers, you’ll find them.

              “They had a “technology” that modern man wishes to deny their having.”

              Well if we are to judge things by using you as an example, common sense must be a rare fucking technology.

              “If all of this sounds “crazy” to you… documentary called “Ancient Aliens.” The evidence is more than compelling.”

              No more questions your Honor. I rest my case.

              “The point is, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are false religions”

              HA HA Ha ha! Yeah, false religions and you know the “REAL” religion, and Science will prove it someday, just not today and then boy will we be sorry and you will be so Vindicated. You crazy people are so funny when you try to do “thinky” stuff.

              “Other people know better – humanity used to be more highly evolved, more connected to his fellow wo/man, more connected to and aware of the Earth, and more empowered in life.”

              It’s simply amazing to see how you dress up ignorance and then praise it as if it is some kind of desirable goal.

              “It was created specifically to remove knowledge and dumb down the population so we could all be enslaved through guilt, fear, and ignorance and powerlessness.”

              Just like your religion. Funny how that works.

            • http://www.exposingchristianity.com Mike

              haha the Egyptians would tell you the Gods taught them everything they knew. You haven’t studied any of this at all, have you? Oh, I see. You just want to talk about things that you know nothing about.

              You are morons, and hopefully this is my last post on the issue. You are as stupid as the christians you hate. This last person said that my religion rules through guilt, fear, etc. I’d like him to explain that one, since my “religion” has no rules, no punishment in the afterlife, and no clergy.

              Yes, science and spirituality meet. Yoga is an ancient Pagan art. Yoga is extremely spiritual, yet what most people call “yoga” is only the tip of the iceberg, especially since Christianity destroyed as much of that knowledge as it could, and watered down most of the rest. “Yoga” means “Union” as in, the union of body and soul. Scientists now agree that yoga has great benefits for the body and the mind. But anyone with half a brain could see that in the first place. Yeah, science backs me up. Man. The world is full of idiots.

              Yes, you are idiots, and this post was written for people who could be interested in why Christianity is *more insidious* than other systems of belief, and how it stole, raped and killed to get where it is, including bastardizing every other way of life in order to get where it is. Clearly someone got something out of what I wrote, enough for at least one person to write as much. That was the purpose, to give food for thought to people who can actually think, not people with knee-jerk reactions and closed minds. These posts were not written for nitwits with double-digit IQs. So stop reading them and you’re all set!!

              Have a nice day!!

            • Sunny Day

              “You just want to talk about things that you know nothing about.”

              Wow, we have so much in common, you must be my fucking spiritual complement.
              No wait, you’re just spouting the same tired bullshit about how your credulity to believe any hamfisted tripe makes you a more “knowledgeable” person. You still didn’t answer my question, Did you go to Pizza Hut afterwards?

              “.. hopefully this is my last post on the issue.”

              I hope so too.

              “since my “religion” has no rules, no punishment in the afterlife, and no clergy.”

              Wow a completely empty religion, yet you are still here trying to tell people how other religions are false and you have the true message? That’s great, you’ve raised vacuity to a religion!

              “[Rambling horsepucky about Yoga Deleted] Yeah, science backs me up. Man. The world is full of idiots.”

              Yeah Science backs me up too!, and Jesus and Dinosaurs, and Sharks with Lazers, and Leprechauns and Yogi the Bear. You’ve only got Science! Man, you’re an idiot.

              “These posts were written for nitwits with double-digit IQs. So stop reading them and you’re all set!!”

              Fixed that for you.

            • Rachel

              Actually Mike is completely correct about Quantum Physics and advanced science moving in to the realm of what was once considered mysticism. Have you ever heard of String Theory or the fact that particles on a sub atomic level do not appear to adhere to the laws of physics but instead act of the their own accord? One interesting thing about String Theory is that it postulates that there are multiple dimensions to our reality and that they are all existing simultaneously. This is as ancient an esoteric principle as any religion. For thousands of years there have been myths and stories of inter dimensional travel people being spirited away to other planes of existence or reaching altered states of consciousness in which one experiences another world completely. Science is just now reaching the same conclusion.

              One of my favorite comparisons is to the Buddhist belief that we are all one, that everything on this planet is the same and is all connected. Well science itself has definitively proven this to be true, each and everything in existence is made out of atoms and these atoms form bonds and interact with each other. So in the simplest of terms we are all one.

              Mike is not crazy or off his rocker, in fact he’s ahead of the curb. Soon enough organized religion will fade in to the annals of history and we as a people will assume a state of enlightenment through science as well as spirituality. Because they will merge. The human mind and spirit are capable of wondrous things and when everybody stops arguing semantics on what it’s called, science or religion, we can finally advance as a society.

            • Janet Greene

              Incredibly powerful comment. I’m saving it for a rainy day…and I emailed it to my sister, who has a doctorate in feminist theology. This rang so TRUE for me, it’s amazing.

            • Roz

              Mike, find more up-to-date info dude, you are behind. They actually now know how the pyramids were built. It’s amazing what you can do with sand, logs and slaves. They were built from the top down with the sand being dug out as they went. Seems simple and ungodlike don’t you think. If you look for mystical reasons for why things were done a certain way you will find them. If you dig in the sand in Egypt for over a hundred years you will also eventually find the truth. I’ll take the truth any day over the nastiness that all religions extol.

              I also tried the pray to god idea to win at Scrabble and I won but then I realized I was just that good at Scrabble. Though to this day I have a little something something for ODIN. The Valkyries need to go though and Thor would blow the roof off of any house. Plus then there’s Freya et al and Ragnarok to deal with eventually and who want’s that.

            • Musa

              “They actually now know how the pyramids were built. It’s amazing what you can do with sand, logs and slaves.”

              Actually, the pyramids were not built by slave labor. The workers who built the pyramids were paid laborers and many had brought their families with them. They lived near the work site and left behind many artifacts from their daily lives. Dr. Zahi Hawass has done extensive research on this. Here is a link to an article about it on Telegraph.co.uk:
              “Pyramids ‘not built by slaves’ ”
              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/6962860/Pyramids-not-built-by-slaves.html

            • Mike

              “It’s amazing what you can do with sand, logs, and slaves.”

              Nope. Try again. According to the whole “logs and ramps” theory, they would have to lay one stone down every few seconds in order to build the pyramids in the amount of time historians believe they were built (20 years). It doesn’t add up. You don’t lay multi-ton stones at a rate of 1 per five seconds.

            • Timothy

              I totally figured this out once on LSD. It was the fun trip where all dualities flipped. Fun was boring, boring was fun, light was dark, dark was light, serious was funny, funny was serious, Satan was God. God was Satan. I learned a LOT that night. Of course you have to be open to it. ;)

            • Yoav

              Was it LSD or LDS?

            • Christian Ross

              You are very wise thank you so much

  • http://s-l-i-t-h.blogspot.com Alfonso Armenta

    Flat beer and ugly strippers await you all in hell.

    Ramen.

    • H Ras

      Armenta: I’m guessing your god has bigger balls than mine?

  • http://bike-commuter-sc.blogspot.com roving_looney

    i only found 1 place to buy a Baal statue for a shrine.
    http://capricornslair.stores.yahoo.net/adorbagodofy.html

  • Ty

    Ever since I stopped being a christian and started (jokingly) claiming to be a Mithraist, My life has come up nothing but roses.

    I’m starting to wonder if maybe it’s all blessings from Mithra. Heck, worshiping Mithra has one huge advantage. I can actually point to my god as he moves across the sky.

    • M

      I’ve always felt that worshipping a planetary body, satellite or a sun-god makes a lot more sense than worshipping God, so I’m with you on that one.

      After all, the Sun makes plants grow, which support the entire food chain and 99% of the world’s life, controls much of the world’s weather, can also destroy and wither things by shining too long… it’s an inexplicable blazing ball of fire in the sky to anyone who doesn’t know it’s a star we’re going around; it blinds you if you look upon it too long, it goes away at night only to ‘miraculously’ be reborn over on the other side of the sky the next morning, and so on.
      What’s God? Some force? An invisible guy with a book that makes no sense? The Sun is admittedly more impressive.

      • Mike

        I would agree 100%

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Ty: Well so far Baal is working pretty well for me, but if something bad happens maybe I’ll try Mithra.

  • Ty

    Baal is ok, if you really like rain and fertility.

    Were there any good gods that celebrated sex without also promoting fecundity? I like the sex part; kids, not so much.

    Mithraism is a nice straightforward warrior cult. It appeals to that primal need to stab things with spears and then eat them.

    • T.S.

      TY: Mithraism is a nice straightforward warrior cult. It appeals to that primal need to stab things with spears and then eat them.

      <3

      Loved that line! I actually laughed out loud <3

    • beyonddeities

      Well, Dionysus was the Greek god of booze, orgies and good times…

  • http://www.meatofthematter.wordpress.com Jim Etchison

    Don’t we worship Baal by performing human sacrifice? Specifically burning our children? This should be an AWESOME way to get my son in line!!

    • Mike

      Actually, people didn’t worship Baal like that.

      They worshipped Moloch aka Yahweh like that.

      When the bible was written, they re-assigned the attributes of various deities to make the hebrew god “good” and the Pagan gods “evil.”

      The Pagan Gods are now known as the Demons and have been marginalized accordingly.

      • Michael

        Actually, people didn’t worship Baal like that.

        sauce?

        They worshipped Moloch aka Yahweh like that.

        Moloch was a Semitic god, but he was not Yahweh. Whether or not human sacrifices were really performed is a matter of some debate, but whether they were distinct entities is not.

        However, it may be true that human sacrifices were sometimes given to Yahweh. At least one such sacrifice is mentioned (albeit in a story) in the Hebrew Bible.

        When the bible was written, they re-assigned the attributes of various deities to make the hebrew god “good” and the Pagan gods “evil.”

        “They” did? “When the bible was written?” What are you talking about here? The Hebrew Bible is a collection of books written at many different times by totally different people. Even the Torah has at least four groups of primary authors.

        And Baal worship is not generally associated with “Paganism,” which usually refers to (in this context) the Greco-Roman gods.

        The Pagan Gods are now known as the Demons and have been marginalized accordingly.

        Again, you seem to be referring to the New Testament here. But either way, you are confused. Demons in ancient Greek and Roman tradition were not gods but were supernatural beings that existed between humans and gods. They were not necessarily evil. It is true that they were made evil in early Catholic tradition as a means of (get it?) demonizing Paganism. But while demons were then exclusively considered to be evil, they were still not the same as the Pagan gods (some of whom may still have been associated with other evil characters such as Satan (Baal, Pan) or the fallen angels (e.g. Molech)).

  • Barry de la Rosa

    Lol @ all you witty jokesters!

    I have a friend who has a special god he prays to when playing Backgammon (and he plays for money, so stakes are high). Sadly, his success rates are as good as random… so, if anyone tries to convert you to worshiping “Grom”, be forewarned.

  • http://tcramerica.org Nick

    I have to admit this did make me laugh :)

  • http://www.freshbrainz.com LH

    To Alfonso:

    If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??

  • http://www.wazzasworthlesswitterings.blogspot.com wazza

    where did the P&D meme come from?

    I’ve always wondered that, and I can guess, but specifics would be nice. I’d ask over at Pharyngula, but they might revoke my DoE membership…

  • Wormwood

    Ty:

    If you wish to worship a god who is all about consequence free sex, you should begin where every religion does: make him up.

    Perhaps something like Hu-Heff-Narr?

    • Mike

      Dionysus and Aphrodite as well as Inanna and others represented the joy of sex without necessarily reproduction.

  • Wormwood
  • mrunicycler

    I refute your claim that Baal will make me burn in hell for eternity.

    All you’ve shown is that his power reigns supreme over games of crazy eights, a game I don’t play, and so will suffer no consequences from a continued disbelief in it.

    :)

  • http://votestrike.org Karla Elisa

    I am far too lazy to start my own religion or God so I am just gonna wait and see what Obama does…

  • http://layperson.rationalblogs.org Radioactive afikomen

    Are you implying that Obama is God?

  • http://br-digiphoto.com Bill Rogers

    No, Obama is just another politician who knows he’ll never be elected to anything if he doesn’t embrace religion.

    Personally, I do not worship Baal. I am a Frisbyterian. We Frisbyterians believe that, when a person dies, his or her soul goes on the roof and nobody can get it down.

    • http://www.yermom.com Joe Mamma

      *snorts*

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  • http://masksoferis.wordpress.com/ Masks of Eris

    Baal? (snorts) Close enough. Any four-letter divinity suits me. I go for Eris myself — a female deity makes this whole business of idols more interesting. (…he said with a lewd little chuckle.)

    Eris Discordia (pfft), goddess of chaos, the same to religion as the Relevant FSM is to intelligent design cretinism.

    Er, creationism.

    Generic wishes of good luck and success!

  • http://www.adamus.nl Adamus

    Heathens, all of you! My God Bacchus will drown you all in endless tides of wine and spirits!

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  • http://www.jorgebucaran.com Jorge Bucaran

    I like George Carlin’s idea of worshiping the sun and if we want to go human, Joe Pesci will do.

    • PoeticMetalHead

      Ha!George Carlin was a true genius! And I agree. :)

  • A Voice of Sanity

    Great Cthulhu for President – it beats having your brain eaten.

  • bluebirdisdead

    and it is written: “Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God.”

  • bluebirdisdead

    Christians believe Baal exists too, though they would say he is a demon. Well, some Christians believe in demons. Most of the ones that do are rather mean-spirited and bigoted people that call themselves ‘fundamentalists’ but don’t realize the one commandment Jesus considered fundamental was the one about loving thy neighbor. But I’m sure there are those who don’t yell on streetcorners that aren’t too proud to believe in spiritual beings.

  • http://girlswithbigbooks.com/ Zabimaru

    I’ve been reading through some posts on this site with great enjoyment, and this one was very funny.

    I was a bit disappointed though, because I really expected some fundamentalist Christian to come in and explain WHY this isn’t proof of Baal’s supremacy, while ALSO explaining why their argument doesn’t hold true against any argument for the Judeo-Christian God’s supremacy.

    I have always felt thought that it is so interesting that so many deeply religious people say that their one big rationalization for their belief is that they “know in their hearts that it is true,” while simultaneously rejecting all other Gods… Followers of other religions have the exact same argument, but suddenly that doesn’t hold any weight, for some reason. I have long awaited some explanation for that particular piece of doublethink.

    • Janet Greene

      I think the falling frisbee is a test of your faith.

    • http://www.copperflowerstudios.4t.com CopperFlower

      Hi, Zabimaru.
      In the New Testament, Christ addressed this very issue when explaining that this world is ruled by the powers that are aligned against God, and against any that followed Him.

      Satan also offered the kingdoms of Earth to Christ in the desert. It would follow that he controls them, if he is able to offer them over.

    • nazani14

      I always ask Christians why the Abrahamic religions adopted the Egyptian idea that the heart is the organ of consciousness, but I never get a sensible answer. There are other things that modern Christians read as metaphor that the ancients took literally, but the “open your heart” one comes up the most frequently.

    • Mike

      Personally I don’t reject any god(s) except the Abrahamic one(s). They were invented purely as a means of controlling the masses (judaism christianity islam and offshoots) whereas earlier religions were mostly about nature worship and communion with the world and humanity.

      The rabbit hole goes far deeper than that, but that is the basic idea.

      • Michael

        That is oversimplified and false. Abrahamic tradition clearly evolved from a collective Hebrew history and drew from a number of cultures and myths over a long period of time. It was not “created” just to control people. It is true that Abrahamic religions have frequently been used as a means of control, but the same can be said of most civilizations and religions at at least some point.

        You should also look at the theory that Islam was originally intended as a unifying religion. It’s not at all implausible.

        As far as the polytheistic religions you think are somehow different, keep in mind who controlled the temples and the oracles.

  • http://carnivalofwank.wordpress.com Scout

    I’m a Frisbeetarian. We have frisbees tacked up over all the doorways in our home. Sometimes when we slam the door, one of them falls. I have no idea what this means.

  • Ear Reverend

    “When did I learn I was God? Well, one day I was praying and I realized I was talking to myself.” — Peter O’Toole

  • Gritty

    Erm… winning two times in a row after losing three means nothing. “baal” might actually exist if you lost 10 times in a row, then made those statements, then won 100 times in a row after asking it to be 100 times.

    Example:
    It’s like flipping a coin that has two sides in a perfect world. The first side is heads and the second side is tails. Out of an average 10 flips you will get a 5:5 ratio (heads to tails) in a perfect world. Out of an average 100 flips you will get a 50:50 ratio (heads to tails) in a perfect world.

    I can strongly say that you would have had a very good chance of winning again just because that nothing is random. In the case that there were more than one other person playing your game with you. You odds of winning obviously decrease, but you still would have won again in the near future.

    It should be said that your “divide experience” was nothing more than the natural laws of chance and probability coming into play.

    “The fool is quick to act on impulses, but the wise discern what is true and right.”

    • Janet Greene

      I’m glad you were saved from drug addiction. Did your church also encourage you to get to the root of your addiction? To find out WHY you were addicted in the first place? I was also a drug addict – cocaine. Used it for years – lost most of my things, my career, my reputation. It was very, very painful. This was during the time that I still believed in christianity, but was a “backslidden” christian – ie I wasn’t actively going to church, praying, etc. But I had always been depressed, and had an abusive childhood. Through therapy, I got to the root of my problem with drugs. At the same time, I was on a search for Truth, and started reading the bible and challenging my beliefs. I read John shelby Spong, Gretta Vosper, and other inspirational writers who helped me see how christianity had almost destroyed me. I am now a happy, drug-free atheist. I just want you to know that although it’s great you were able to straighten out your life, it is not proof of the truth of christianity. But if you need to believe right now, that’s fine. Hopefully this isn’t the end of your journey, and you will not get complacent in thinking you know the One Truth. Keep searching and growing – it’s very rewarding. Kudos to you.

  • http://morechristlike.com/ More Christ Like

    Daniel I know a lot of Christians are this way. They pray for something and it happens so they believe.

    I believe in God because he deal with my soul and convicted me of my sin (I am an ex-street person crack head etc..). He saved me from bondage to sinning, changed my desires, and made me a new person. That is way I believe. Not because he helped me win 2 games of crazy eights.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @More Christ Like:

    That’s great you found help through Christianity. Other people find help through other religions or philosophies. For instance, the people who find help through scientology — does that make scientology right? Or simply that they might have some great programs.

    What about people who find help through Mormonism? Or Islam? Or Buddhism? Are you ready to accept those as true just because people found help through them?

    Of course not. Just because someone found help through Buddhism doesn’t mean it proves their assertion that pain does not exist. Just because someone found help through Mormonism doesn’t mean the Golden Tablets from heaven existed and Joseph Smith was a prophet. Neither does it follow that because evangelical Christianity helped you when you were down, that Jesus was born of a virgin and resurrected 2,000 years ago.

    If that is your logic, then you have to accept all the other religions, too.

    I know mystical and superstitious explanations are tempting, but the truth is you were able to clean up yourself with help from other people.

  • Molly

    Now that we’re approaching the holidays, does anyone know where I can find a shirt that says, “Mithras is the reason for the season”? If not, I suggest we make one.

    • Janet Greene

      When you believe in something for which there is no evidence, it is foolishness. Some of us believed in Santa too. But we grew out of it, and realized that the bible dates back only 10,000 years or so because that’s what the writers believed. They also believed that war is commonly necessary, that it’s ok to kill babies when god orders it, and that a good man can give up his daughters to be raped by strangers (Lot). They believed the earth was flat, that women should submit to their husbands, and slaves should obey their masters. This was what they knew, and it was superstition based on lack of knowledge. The more we understand about how the world works, the more “questions” you will have about the bible.

  • Tim

    Don’t you people have anything better to do with your time than sit around bashing a faith that you believe there is no validity to? Clearly you have not read the bible as thoroughly as you claim or you would know that every time you open your mouths and say nasty things about the Christian faith, you validate the bible which said you would do that very thing 2000 years ago.

    As far as the bible being nonsense, I’m sure some of it is. I don’t believe every word is meant to be taken literally. Remember, these are people who were given visions of the future and had to interpret what they saw within their own understanding.

    However, faith is its own foundation. It stands alone. We are told to be childlike in our faith and if that means believing the unbelievable over scientific theory then so be it. Because science has no facts toward creation or evolution and never will have, because no one was there to witness it. No matter what science says all they will ever have is accepted theory. Evolution (if there is such a thing) moves too slowly to study it enough to make it fact. Species go extinct. As far as I’m concerned all that they have found is extinct sub species’ of apes.

    Being childlike in your faith means accepting what your faith tells you in confidence that your questions will be answered one day. And I have a lot of questions. Where do dinosaurs tie in? How come the bible only dates back 5-7,000 years? I have all of these questions and still maintain my faith. Because there is no argument for faith. You have it or you don’t. But you can not argue it with someone who has it. You will lose every time.

    Call me closed-minded if you will but remember this. (And this goes for whoever) Of the two of us, which one of us believes in something that they cannot and have never physically seen that is beyond their own comprehension, and which one of our beliefs are entirely restricted to the confines of our own earthly comprehension? Just something to think about before calling a Christian closed-minded.

    • amy

      If not all of the bible can be taken literally then how do we know what can? In Corinthians it says a woman must cover her head when she prays and should not cut her hair. Does that mean that the majority of christian women are going to hell? or that it isn’t to be taken literally and i in my atheist ignorance have simply misinterpreted yet another passage in the bible that is ignored by the majority?

  • Stoney

    Baal, the God of Crazy Eights

  • Nathan

    You’re right Tim. I’ve been so closed-minded. In fact, from this moment on, I’m going to believe anything I’m told, because I would NEVER want to appear to be closed-minded. Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Unicorns… I believe in them all. I assume YOU do, because you’re open minded.

    Of course, I’m joking, but only slightly. I am an atheist, but religion fascinated me. I was raised a very strict Christian, and I took multiple classes on world religions in college, and I still enjoy reading articles, web-sites, and essays about religion and humanity’s relationship with it. I find it fascinating, but I don’t believe in a god.

    I generally believe in a live-and-let-live sort of philosophy on life, unless that person or organization is hurting other people’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But I have to say, American Christians, specifically Evangelicals have exhibited such hate, such closed-mindedness that others in this country are suffering because of them. And it’s all due to statements like yours: “As far as the bible being nonsense, I’m sure some of it is. I don’t believe every word is meant to be taken literally.”

    As a Christian, how do you justify this? I’ve never met a Christian who is willing to sell his daughter into slavery, and I would be willing to bet that most Christians enjoy a nice cheeseburger every now and then and don’t feel guilty whatsoever. Yet there are countless Christians across this nation literally SCHEMING to keep people from happiness by denying the civil rights of gay and lesbian Americans. When so-called “Christians” are fighting against love, something is foul. These Christians pick and choose. As all Christians are forced to in our day and age. And the current trend is for Christians to pick and choose to discriminate something they don’t understand and don’t want to understand.

    And before someone comes back with the old “Well, that’s THESE Christians, and not me,” all I have to say is I can’t recall ONE “Christian” who has ever taken responsibility for any of the hateful things that come out of Evangelical Christianity. Of course it isn’t you, it’s those other Christians.

    While I think the idea of Jesus is pretty cool, and some of the things in the Bible are good tips, I don’t call myself a Christian because I don’t want to be associated with people who are hateful.

    And no, I don’t have an agenda, and I’m not gay. It just breaks my heart that in a world filled with hate, so-called Christians are adding a lot more to the world these days and we have to spend our time convincing people with science to change their minds and hearts so they’ll divorce themselves from these horrible teachings.

    • Christian Ross

      Hahahah holy piss that was funny man

  • roblie

    Nonsense. I can’t believe that everything as sophisticated and complex nature came from virtually nothing and resulted by chance then snowballed into what it is now. Even with the advances of science there are things in nature and space that are too complex and baffling to the scientist yet they exist in all it’s intricate design. Human even gifted with superior intelligence even rely on what they discovered in nature and adapted what is already there to their benefits.

    It’s sad that people see belief in God as represented by established mainstream religions. They may be as misled as these atheist people as they failed to find or discover true God.

  • Tim

    “You’re right Tim. I’ve been so closed-minded. In fact, from this moment on, I’m going to believe anything I’m told, because I would NEVER want to appear to be closed-minded. Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Unicorns… I believe in them all. I assume YOU do, because you’re open minded.”

    I said be childlike, not childish. Whats wrong with whoever wanting to believe in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny etc.? Especially children! If we destroy people’s beliefs in these things, how are they supposed to believe in Jesus or God who are just as visible?

    “I generally believe in a live-and-let-live sort of philosophy on life, unless that person or organization is hurting other people’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

    So do I! So do a lot of Christians! What you have to understand is that some Christians aren’t really Christians at all, and others who are, still are not perfect. Christianity is not about hate. Jesus taught love and forgiveness, remember? That is probably why he he talked more about hell than he did heaven.

    “I have to say, American Christians, specifically Evangelicals have exhibited such hate, such closed-mindedness that others in this country are suffering because of them.”

    If you are referring to the direction that your life headed for listening to every word that they said than that’s what you get for listening to someone else instead of living your own salvation! You can’t depend on others to interpret everything for you. Whats right for them may not be what God intended right for others. I have two children. A little girl and a little boy. As a parent, I set rules for them both. But their rules are different because they are two completely people. Two completely different types of people. Therefore each one has different sets of rules.
    Some would call this unfair, but my children understand why and do not question it anymore.

    “it’s all due to statements like yours: ‘As far as the bible being nonsense, I’m sure some of it is. I don’t believe every word is meant to be taken literally.’”

    What, you do believe every word the bible says? I thought you were Atheist? I don’t see how others can suffer for my statement or any like it. I believe the bible was meant merely for guidance. For reference. Not to live your life according to. Would you send your kids to King’s Island for them to come back and tell you they simply walked around and played it safe, or only rode 1 ride? The bible was written by men. Men’s testimonies of events and laws of the world 2000+ years ago. I don’t believe every word I read! I pray about it and limit what I listen to from others. My relationship with God is mine alone. Others can not help. I also do not allow people to use the bible on me in an attempt to debunk my faith. They are not dealing with the bible, they are dealing with a Christian.

    “As a Christian, how do you justify this? I’ve never met a Christian who is willing to sell his daughter into slavery, and I would be willing to bet that most Christians enjoy a nice cheeseburger every now and then and don’t feel guilty whatsoever.”

    Why do I have to justify anything to you? As I told you before, I live my own salvation as you should be doing.
    I’m not going to sit here and blow smoke up your ass. A lot of churches like to drive new Christians away by telling them, “You have to change right away, or you’re backsliding and not living a christian life.” I’ve told more than one church to piss off! I listen to Guns N’ Roses. As far as selling children into slavery, I really cannot make sense of what you are getting at there. I would never do such a thing.

    “Yet there are countless Christians across this nation literally SCHEMING to keep people from happiness by denying the civil rights of gay and lesbian Americans. When so-called “Christians” are fighting against love, something is foul.”

    As I said before, Christians are not perfect either! This is an example of taking every word literally. The bible says that God is against homosexuality and although I have noting against homosexuals, So am I! But then how is it my business? God requires me to remind them twice that they are sinning and then wash my hands of them and leave them the hell alone. Not to judge them! Some of these as you very accurately put it, “So-called Christians”, are not even Christian at all if they are acting the way they are. You cannot be a Christian if you are ignoring God’s law all the time. So you’re right something is foul!

    “These Christians pick and choose. As all Christians are forced to in our day and age. And the current trend is for Christians to pick and choose to discriminate something they don’t understand and don’t want to understand.”

    Really? Who have I discriminated? I don’t pick and choose people to hate. I hate who I hate because of their actions, and stubborn refusal to be civil and treat others with dignity and respect. And before you say that I am a bad Christian for hating anyone, let me just say in advance that I am not perfect either. Since I have been writing this response, I have sworn 3 times. Then again, maybe having grace is defined by more than just the way you talk.

    “And before someone comes back with the old ‘Well, that’s THESE Christians, and not me,’ all I have to say is I can’t recall ONE ‘Christian’ who has ever taken responsibility for any of the hateful things that come out of Evangelical Christianity. Of course it isn’t you, it’s those other Christians.

    How is it one Christian’s responsibility to atone for another’s ignorance? When was the last time you took responsibility for the ignorant crap being flushed out of someone else’s filthy sewer? Particularly another Atheist? Don’t talk to me about persecution! People like yourself have no trouble persecuting the most dedicated and understanding Christians every day!

    “I don’t call myself a Christian because I don’t want to be associated with people who are hateful.”

    Nor do I want to be. But what does that have to do with being a Christian? You believe or you don’t. The choice is yours. But what if you’re wrong? What if I’m wrong? I have lived a good life. Not perfect but who’s is? If I die today and I’m wrong, I’ll never know!

    “And no, I don’t have an agenda, and I’m not gay.”

    No one said you did or you were. It was actually the farthest thing from my mind.

    “It just breaks my heart that in a world filled with hate, so-called Christians are adding a lot more to the world these days and we have to spend our time convincing people with science to change their minds and hearts so they’ll divorce themselves from these horrible teachings.”

    Why do you need science to kill faith? You can’t have it both ways! The owner of this site has rejected a Christian’s answers to validate god’s existence. ex. “The bible says he exists. Therefore, he exists.” Science does the same thing. How many times has science corrected itself and scientist’s had to deal with the fact that everything they knew was wrong, until it corrects itself again? Science says so. So it must be! There is nothing horrible about Christian teachings. Only horrible people being allowed to teach it. You act like Christians are solely responsible for the world turning to shit! (4 times) How about taking a little responsibility yourself? How perfect are you? We live in a world of politics. Not everyone’s is the same. “These people are the problem because they don’t think like us!” How many times in one way or another, in your own words have you said this yourself? I can think of at least once.

    • roz

      At least scientists realize the original ideal was wrong and work towards finding the correct answer.

      And thanks to science. Christians for the most part realize that thunder is not god being angry.

      Or do they, when things like Hurricane Katrina, which killed friends of mine, are blamed on gays and so called lewd behavior you have to wonder.

  • http://terrystuff.wordpress.com O’Maolchathaigh

    Those that believe see proof everywhere. Those that don’t believe are still waiting for a proof that never comes.

  • Tim

    To: O’Maolchathaigh,

    What do you believe?

  • http://terrystuff.wordpress.com O’Maolchathaigh

    Tim:
    I believe in things I can eat, things that can hurt me, where I can sleep, and the smell of pee. I believe in the comfort of cuddling, petting a cat, holding a child, or reading. I believe in traveling, smelling, seeing, tasting and fucking. I believe in living and dying. Your beliefs are not important to my survival and happiness.

    • Christian Ross

      Lol right on

  • Tim

    To: O’Maolchathaigh

    Although your response seemed rather sarcastic for a question as harmless as mine, let me just say that the “proof” you speak of is all around you as you said. The problem is that Atheist’s need to rationalize everything around them.

    Suppose God did show himself to you and gave you the certainty that most Atheists seem to need so badly. More than likely you would try to rationalize what you had just been shown with some scientific theory. Christ proved this with his performance of miracles. The point is, you would still not accept what you saw for what it was.

    I asked you what you believed because based on your preceding comment, it was hard to tell where you stood. As far as proof goes Atheists will die of old age before they find that type certainty. God does not physically show himself to believers. Why would he lower himself to the level of someone who would not believe even if they were to be given proof. He has already tried that. Besides, God wants people to have faith. Let us just say that faith and certainty do not eat at the same table. It will make it no easier for you to enter heaven with this knowledge. Because you are still not perfect. You would have to work extra hard.

    “To whom much is given, much is expected.” Luke 12:48

    This applies here too. My beliefs do not require you to believe. They require me to minister to you twice, then leave you in God’s hands. So if you have any questions, ask.

    • Roz

      Did your frisbee drop too?

    • Roz

      Asking someone what they believe in is never harmless Tim and you would have to be exceptionally naive to actually believe that. I thought O’Maolchathaigh’s response though short was sweet and to the point. It probably wasn’t the answer you were looking for but who are you to denigrate those beliefs. One thing I have noticed over and over again when dealing with religions is the attempt to belittle other’s beliefs is a common theme found in all.

    • Sunny Day

      “Suppose God did show himself to you and gave you the certainty that most Atheists seem to need so badly. More than likely you would try to rationalize what you had just been shown with some scientific theory. Christ proved this with his performance of miracles. The point is, you would still not accept what you saw for what it was.”

      If the atheist wasn’t convinced your supposed god would have failed to be knowledgeable enough to convince them. By the definition of that theists use that thing wouldn’t have been god in the first place. Though its funny to see you put constraints on your god whenever you feel like it.

      “God does not physically show himself to believers.”

      Just like Thor.

      “Why would he lower himself to the level of someone who would not believe even if they were to be given proof.”

      Because god loves everyone? I guess god must be an egotistical wanker just like his priests and worshipers.

      “He has already tried that.”

      According to you he must have failed. So much for the infallibility of god. Tell me more of what god can’t do.

      “Besides, God wants people to have faith.” – Just like Viranocha

      “Let us just say that faith and certainty do not eat at the same table.”

      Tell me more of what your god can’t do.

      “It will make it no easier for you to enter heaven with this knowledge.”

      Ignorance is Knowledge. Lies are Truth. and Slavery is Freedom.

      “Because you are still not perfect. You would have to work extra hard.”

      Not like silly believers who just swallow whatever their priests tell them, they get the easy way.

      • Mike

        Many say they have seen Thor. Both ancient people and modern. So who do you believe?

        • Michael

          I’m pretty sure you totally missed the point.

  • John B. Hodges

    To further debate, I’ll post this link to a “revelation”, received as a young man by a recently-retired prof. of philosophy at Virginia Tech, Harlan Miller.

    http://www.phil.vt.edu/Miller/papers/Gesargenplotzianism/geztitle.html

    Harlan says that he is an atheist on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and a Gesargenplotzian on other days. IMHO he’s using it as a vehicle to make people think about the grounds of knowledge… if you DOUBT the truth of Gesargenplotzianism, then on the SAME grounds you must doubt the truth of all other religions. And if you ACCEPT this revelation, then, well….

  • Aquaria

    ===Suppose God did show himself to you and gave you the certainty that most Atheists seem to need so badly. More than likely you would try to rationalize what you had just been shown with some scientific theory.==

    Of course we would question what we were seeing. That’s what rational people do. If Vishnu or a pink unicorn appeared before you, wouldn’t you have even a smidgeon of curiosity, a smidgeon of wanting to be sure you were seeing what you were seeing? If you say otherwise, you are either a fool or a liar.

    === Christ proved this with his performance of miracles.===

    A constant across codified superstition–i.e., religion, is how its deity or deities have this funny habit of performing miracles as far as the eye can see. If you think that a deity “proves” anything with miracles, especially his existence or his specialness, are you ready to acknowledge that Vithoba approached a village woman and asked for one of her mangoes, bit it, declared it sour, handed it back to her, and within a few minutes, it turned into a child who was called Chokhamela? Why is this Hindu miracle inferior to or improbable in comparison to something so silly as the loaves to fishes story, clearly a yarn wherein the size of the crowd grew and the amount of food decreased with every retelling? What a crappy miracle. Give me the mango into a godlet story, any day!

    Don’t get me started on how many of these deities came from virgin births, how many have resurrection fantasies, how many of them “sacrificed” themselves to save lowly mankind, or the like.

    In short, your Bronze Age goatherder miracle myths ares no more or less valid than that of any other primitive superstition. You might want to ask yourself why you accept your variations on the same old myths, and reject the others.

    ==The point is, you would still not accept what you saw for what it was.==

    Let’s get this out of the way first: Don’t speak for people when you don’t know what they would or would not accept, much less why.

    With that said, I would accept the supposed deity or pink unicorns or Santa as real once I had the basic questions answered.

    However, accepting that existence does NOT mean I would worship it. I certainly wouldn’t do it for the Abrahamic deity, who is a hateful, misogynous, bloodthirsty, megalomaniacal sadist, and I would rather burn in his hell than spend an eternity praising such a horrific monster. You know, if you wanted to improve your deity’s appeal, you might loosen him up, and make him less of a jerk. And make your heaven a little more interesting. It’s so boring that if I got sent to it, I’d commit suicide, just to end the tedium.

  • Tim

    “If Vishnu or a pink unicorn appeared before you, wouldn’t you have even a smidgeon of curiosity, a smidgeon of wanting to be sure you were seeing what you were seeing? If you say otherwise, you are either a fool or a liar.”

    There is no wisdom without foolishness. There has never been a wise man who did not a one point or another consider himself a fool. That being said, I have no clue who Vishnu is. However If I saw a Unicorn, I would of course check it’s validity. But then a unicorn is not God. Also Smidgen is spelled wrong…twice. So watch who you call a fool.

    “A constant across codified superstition–i.e., religion, is how its deity or deities have this funny habit of performing miracles as far as the eye can see. If you think that a deity “proves” anything with miracles, especially his existence or his specialness, are you ready to acknowledge that Vithoba approached a village woman and asked for one of her mangoes, bit it, declared it sour, handed it back to her, and within a few minutes, it turned into a child who was called Chokhamela? Why is this Hindu miracle inferior to or improbable in comparison to something so silly as the loaves to fishes story, clearly a yarn wherein the size of the crowd grew and the amount of food decreased with every retelling? What a crappy miracle. Give me the mango into a godlet story, any day!

    Don’t get me started on how many of these deities came from virgin births, how many have resurrection fantasies, how many of them “sacrificed” themselves to save lowly mankind, or the like.

    In short, your Bronze Age goatherder miracle myths ares no more or less valid than that of any other primitive superstition. You might want to ask yourself why you accept your variations on the same old myths, and reject the others.”

    That is what faith is. Belief in something that you can not give proof of it’s existence. No proof that will be accepted anyway. As far as the other God you spoke of, I have never heard of them. Why is it that an Atheist seems to know about more “Gods” Than a person who believes in one? You believe or you you don’t. Just don’t try to say you were not ministered to.

    I’ll address the rest later I am being forced out the door right now…

  • Tim

    First off I’d like to apologize for criticizing your spelling. I looked it up and although I was right, so were you. So I apologize.

    “You might want to ask yourself why you accept your variations on the same old myths, and reject the others.”

    Answer: Because they are mine. I believe what I believe and it has nothing to do with anyone else. I don’t use intimidation of hell to minister to people. I remain my own testimony and then when they ask why I am so happy, I tell them. Then I invite them to church with me. They accept or decline, the choice is theirs. I have done all that my faith requires of me in just doing that much. I don’t force it on anyone. In fact, Atheists do as much attempting to destroy people’s faith and push their beliefs off on Christians as Christians do, so I’ll accept no more argument on that.

    “Let’s get this out of the way first: Don’t speak for people when you don’t know what they would or would not accept, much less why.”

    With Unicorns, all you would need to see is whether or not its horn was actually grown from its cranium. Santa Claus, You would need to see flying reindeer. As for God, you can pretty much hang up the idea of him showing his true form to you in this life. But what if a man no more the size of you showed up casually dressed, and told you he was God and then performed great miracles with God’s name written all over them? Would you then accept him as God? Even though the bible tells us that that very thing will someday will actually happen and not to be fooled by it?

    “However, accepting that existence does NOT mean I would worship it. I certainly wouldn’t do it for the Abrahamic deity, who is a hateful, misogynous, bloodthirsty, megalomaniacal sadist, and I would rather burn in his hell than spend an eternity praising such a horrific monster. You know, if you wanted to improve your deity’s appeal, you might loosen him up, and make him less of a jerk. And make your heaven a little more interesting. It’s so boring that if I got sent to it, I’d commit suicide, just to end the tedium.”

    Did you ever stop to think that God, in his infinite wisdom, has reasons for doing things the way he does? If you don’t want to go to heaven, then its simple, you don’t have to. You do have another option! I really don’t think you will like it any better though. Because if you think God is a monster, just wait until you meet Lucifer, A fallen angel who is not only jealous of God, but hates even the knowledge of your existence and knows that is his destiny to suffer eternal torment right next to you. Thank you, I’ll take door #1. But hey, you don’t believe in any of this so its not a problem for you, right? I will end our conversation on this note. It is no more right for you to push your lack of faith off on others than it is for them to constantly do it to you. This country was built on Christianity and we all still have freedom of religion. So if you don’t believe, fine! Odds are you have already been ministered to by someone else, so why should I bother? Just don’t tell me how wrong I am. You will be wasting your breath because you will never convince me of it. If it turns out that I am wrong, as I said before, I will never know it.

    • Christian Ross

      Hey man it’s ok.. Realizing one day that your faith is false is a big blow and may leave you helpless and such … You were being “forced” out the door were you not? .. Dude I’ve gone to bible college for 5 years on my way to being a preacher it whatever it was “god” wanted me to do .. I’ve preached to people on the streets I’ve gone on mission trips .. I’ve done it all.. Seen it all.. Thought myself a Christian for 15 years + but after I actually studied and searched I found out that it was all a lie and they are right man.. It is a control tool… Check out the similarities between Dionysus and Jesus and which also turned water into wine and was Greek mythology before the bible etc man it’s hard to hear I know the first thing I did was buy a lot of beer and masturbated my ass off lol because i found out it was all a lie .. Hey there may be a god out there .. But no one knows it’s name I mean if one knew all would know .. Why is one so special .. Do some research .. You remind me of when I was Christian and I was trying to single handedly take down the opposition.. But man seriously .. These guys know what they are talking about .. It’s sad .. And you may feel betrayed as I was .. And they may not know how It is to believe I’n something your whole life and to one dayfind out that it was all a lie.. To all those who know the truth.. Try to be a little more sensitive to these Christians eh? They don’t know they’ve been lied to .. And it’s a hard thing guys to get over … Take care and may you find real happiness .. All of you

  • Caroline

    “However, faith is its own foundation. It stands alone. We are told to be childlike in our faith and if that means believing the unbelievable over scientific theory then so be it. ”
    Watch what you say, Tim. Logically, it is an impossibility to believe something merely by choice. The very act of believing is not something one can force one’s self to do. You either do believe or you don’t. Just saying you believe something doesn’t mean you’ve internalized this belief into something you truly think is true. Believers believe out of fear, hope and wishful thinking, like children. And many people just say it to be accepted.

  • Tim

    “Believers believe out of fear, hope and wishful thinking, like children. And many people just say it to be accepted.”

    This is probably the most intelligent statement that I have read on this site yet, Caroline. While all of that is true, People like myself believe not only because we were taught this belief as a foundation but because we have spent years running from it.

    There was a time when I was uncomfortable in church and even mentioning God in a conversation. I look around and I see more than science can explain. My idea of Heaven is unlimited freedom on earth. I love this planet. There is so much to see.

    I guess the smart Scientist would ask a Christian like myself, “If God just always existed, why can’t the universe have just always existed?” I see biblical prophesy being fulfilled everyday. To me the writer would have had to be the biggest genius in history, to pull of such a big hoax. Or the bible simply states the truth.

    When I was a kid, I witnessed a small miracle. (Actually, a few different things happened to me as a kid that cement my belief in God) To name one though, As fantastic as it sounds, A cousin of mine was praying while we were walking home. As much as it made me uncomfortable, I did not say anything. Well, after a minute or two, she touched me and the others we were with on our shoulders and began praying more. This went on for about 5 minutes. When she stopped, she went around looking at the palms of our hands. Every last one of us had tiny holes in the center of our palms. No blood! It looked like…well, I really cannot accurately describe it. It just looked like the skin had just opened up. The Catholics call this a stigmata. I’m actually Pentecostal. Fool that I am, I never questioned it or even spoke of it until just now.

    The bottom line is, I did not make my God up. I see proof of his presence everyday. That really is good enough for me. My argument is with people bashing others for believing in God. How does this make them any better than the believers they point their fingers at?

    If I had not been doing an essay for school on Science Vs. Christianity, I would have never even clicked on this site. To me, the owner of this site has made no greater of an investment of his time in creating this site than he believes he has in Christianity in the past. We are talking about a person who seems to go hunting down the imperfections of those who believe, just to post it here in an attempt to prove that Christians are the worst types of people. The only reason I keep coming back is because someone is always responding to my comments. ( I guess I could find a greater investment of my own time.) When the responses stop coming, I will stop wasting my time here.

  • arrrugh

    Holes in the center of the hands, eh? What is that about? I belive Roman crucifixion put the spikes through the wrists, as the hands would tear under the weight of a human. Musta been a human, not a theistic, manifestation. Did she have a dead ball-point pen and some novocaine hidden from everyone? And some memory-loss drops? Through the center of the palms, right…

  • Bill

    Tim:

    Reading through your posts made me sadder and sadder. Like your faith, your bright and glaring stupidity just radiates from the text.

  • Tim

    I have sometimes questioned this myself. You know what though, it was a crucifixion, not a bubble bath! He was probably bound to the cross as well. I think they threw out the concern of comfort when they tore the flesh from him with whips laced chips of bone.

    Bill, if that is the best you’ve got then you cannot match words or wits with me! I strongly recommend you don’t try either as it probably took you 15 minutes or more to come up with the spew you wrote. Sadder and sadder? Flush your filthy sewer on me again and I’ll see how badly I can piss you off!

    • roz

      @Tim: How do you explain dinosaurs and Neanderthals?

  • Aor

    @Tim

    I find your stigmata story to be ridiculous. Could you find the photographs of it in your local paper, where it certainly would have shown up? Imagine, children getting stigmata and nobody knowing! No reporters, no photographers? None of this attracted the attention of your parents? Teachers? Anyone?

    Perhaps you are gullible. Perhaps you are misremembering. Perhaps you are trying to deceive.

  • Rik

    @ Tim

    For someone who is so sure of his “belief” you seem to need to state it’s case (such as it is) a little too much. It seems odd that someone with such a fragile grip on reality would post such rambling, incoherent and naive tirades on an atheist blog and then get so upset when his “logic” is questioned.

    Your “I believe what I believe because I believe it” track is a little wearisome to say the least.

  • Emil-Szarvas

    How about starting a church with H.P. Lovecraft as either prophet, a god, or perhaps even both?

  • Harper

    @ Alfonso Armenta

    I’m goin’ to heaven
    with the beer volcanoes and stripper factories…

    yay!

    Good thing I follow the one true god, the FSM.

    Ramen.

  • an agnostic

    @ everyone:
    it is pointless arguing with a christian.

    @ tim:
    it is pointless arguing with an atheist.

    that being said, i’d like to put in my own two cents.

    tim does have a point. atheists can be just as guilty of pushing their beliefs on others as christians are. he’s not trying to convert any of you; he’s simply trying to defend his beliefs. he does come across as kinda preachy so i can see why this would piss people off. still, he is entitled to his beliefs, and also has the freedom of expressing himself. all you atheists are wasting your time trying to refute his arguments, because the whole point of faith is that you believe without needing proof.

    and the thing about proof is that there is no proof that god exists, but at the same time there is no proof that god DOESN’T exist. everybody should just make their own judgments about the world and base their beliefs on that. if christianity works for you, then so be it. if the church of the flying spaghetti monster works for you, then have at it.

    i do not agree with tim, but i respect him for finding happiness through religion. i am envious of people that can do so, but i choose to find happiness in other things.

    oh and btw, tim, some of your arguments were very flawed. i don’t know where to begin with some of them, but i’d like to pick out a few minor details:
    1. the theory of evolution is a SCIENTIFIC theory. what some people don’t understand about scientific theories is that they are based on facts and evidence. evolution is a scientific theory; creationism is not. although, we cannot rule out creationism as being a possibility.
    2. america was not founded on christianity. it was founded on commercialism. but the established american values still remain, and that is we all have the freedom of religion, to believe in god(s), or not to believe.

    i must say tim, it was quite a valiant but wasteful endeavor. but i suppose you should’ve known what you were getting yourself into, posting about your christian beliefs on an atheistic site.

    • Dale701

      “and the thing about proof is that there is no proof that god exists, but at the same time there is no proof that god DOESN’T exist. everybody should just make their own judgments about the world and base their beliefs on that. if christianity works for you, then so be it. if the church of the flying spaghetti monster works for you, then have at it.”

      This is an invalid argument.
      It is possible according to the laws of probability that a coin could flip 1 million heads in a row, but extremely low probability of doing so.
      I would put every dime I have against 100 times in a row.
      Your statement implies that God being proven or not proven, of equal probability.
      I would not bet against man made Gods, but I see no super natural Gods.
      I saw a man with both of his arms transplanted this morning on TV.
      His wife mentioned prayer.
      Never have saw any god or gods replace anyones arms, no matter how much they prayed.
      The bible says you can move mountains with prayer, never saw that either.

      • roz

        He gave no percentages and his argument is valid…

    • Christian Ross

      Damn .. Point and case

  • Squetra

    Tim
    When I was a young child I saw evidence of god everywhere.
    I also saw ghosts, vampires, little fluffy made-up friends, and I thought Jean-Luc Picard watched me in my bed, behind the curtains.
    Imagination is a fun thing, but when people let it get out of hand, watch out.

  • http://eunoiastudio.co.uk Gnorthern Gnome

    @ An agnostic: A well reasoned, warm approach towards someone with faith in God from someone without it. Many atheists could learn a thing or two from agnostics like yourself, who are often the most open minded.

    What I would throw out there though is that scientific THEORY need not be based in SCIENTIFIC evidence and fact; rather often it is based upon HUMAN perception and logic both of which can be flawed.
    Let me explain. The obvious argument is “flat-earthism” a scientific theory that gained dominance for some absurd reason during the Mid point of Christianity up until early “modern” times. The theory was based nicely on human perception, that the horizon was flat and so therefore must the world be (also illustrating human logic) and a series of misinformed calculations that showed mathematical support. Of course in modern times both the human perception and the human logic (which helped lead to flaws in the mathematical evidence) are instantly shown to be wrong. That doesn’t mean, however, that human perception/logic is now flawless.

    Of course I am not trying to debunk evolution using flat-earth theory. I also realise this argument has been put forward time and time again. So how about a new one: gravity. We accept gravity as fact although it is still theoretical as an explanation for phenomenon found in our Universe. It is also based off human perception (things fall towards larger things) and logic (this means they are being attracted, we understand magnetism, it must be a similar “force” which exhibits similar behaviour) and of course we have our mathematical models. The problem with maths is it is more often than not used to prove a commonly held belief or disprove a commonly disputed belief so is open to human error – the maths will be flawless but a key component may be ignored by humans wanting to accept general consensus. You just have to look at what happens when someone refuses to conform (*cough*General Relativity – Einstein*cough*) to see how deep the problem lies. In reality the facts of gravity are little known, there is little beyond superficial evidence to suggest it is correct and just as flat-earth math models were used in cartography to astoundingly accurate degrees so it could just be fluke that we can use gravitational models to help with other real-life situations (such as space craft trajectories).

    In a similar sense you can easily see human perception playing a large role in the theory of evolution. Yes, we have some very nice groundings in genetical FACT now and the work of selective breeding does show some very good evidence yet at the same time we find carbon-dating and other radio-isotope dating giving competing answers (wildly competing too), supposedly scientific experiments that refute evidence that doesn’t support their evolutionary theory despite it being the majority (I refer to instances in australia where archeologists re-dated bones of large marsupials – extinct obviously – nearly forty times until they struck upon one which placed the bones within the perceived/expected timeframe; that’s a 1-in-40 result that was accepted as the outcome despite all scientific convention to the contrary just because it would have played havoc with a number of australian evolutionary timelines) and a general feeling that “evolution is FACT” when in reality it is simply a very nice, well argued theory (such as gravity) that human perceive to be logically true. Unfortunately as I have hopefully shown human perception and logical deduction is not the same as science and should never be construed as such.

    A little off-topic perhaps and so now to invalidate everything I’ve said to those that follow the religion (or faith-based living structure if you prefer) of atheism I will conclude that I am a Christian albeit one that doesn’t follow conventional Christianity. I’ll leave that one up to your own imaginations ;)

    • Michael R

      “What I would throw out there though is that scientific THEORY need not be based in SCIENTIFIC evidence and fact; rather often it is based upon HUMAN perception and logic both of which can be flawed.”

      This is wrong. A scientific theory must, by definition, provide an explanation of something based upon careful observation and experimentation. Scientific theories are never, ever based upon human perception and logic. What you’re describing is a theory in the vernacular sense, or a theory prior to the invention of the scientific method, neither of which has any relevance to this discussion.

    • Siberia

      Uh, no.

      Evolution is fact much like gravity is fact. What we quibble isn’t whether it happens or not; it’s how.

      We can measure gravity. We can calculate, with a very high degree of accuracy, how much gravity a body is subject to and how much force we need apply to overrule the force of gravity. It’s what makes machines like airplanes and satellites work. We can falsify gravity – if, say, a body randomly shoots upwards without a logical explanation. We can repeatedly show it exists, and predict how it reacts.

      To say it “depends on human perception and logic” alone is ludicrous and an affront to rational thought. We can just as easily say nothing is real and that we’re all living in the Matrix, we only think we’re living in reality. So what?

      What we don’t know is what makes it exist. That’s what we’ve been studying. That’s why gravity is considered a law – Newton’s law of universal gravitation – not a theory, as you imply. The theory you refer to is the general theory of relativity, which attempts to explain how gravity comes about – whether by the curvature of space-time or whatever. Mayhaps gravity isn’t a force, maybe it’s just invisible fairies pushing things down, but it does act very much like a force – it’s reasonable to think it is a force (much like it’s reasonable to think reality is real and not a computer simulation). Theories in science are different from theories in lay terms, as Michael pointed out. Theories in science need verification, need evidence. That’s a far cry from saying something is as it is “because I think it is”.

      In essence, we don’t know what causes gravity, but we know something does, and we know how it works well enough to guarantee it does, in fact, happen. Much like we know now that light acts as a particle and as a wave both – we can measure light’s wavelength and we can identify its particles.

      (Also, this flat earth you speak of. Ironic that people have known the Earth is round well before that – I forget the name of the guy who first measured the Earth’s radius. People already knew the Earth was round well into Medieval times.)

      Likewise, evolution is a fact. We know things change over time. We can prove, over and over again, that it happens. We’ve observed it happen – what with nylon-consuming bacteria and the several million different strands of viruses that appear daily, with fruit flies and genetics and all the staggering amount of evidence we have. No, we have not observed evolution in a greater scale, directly, but it’s not unreasonable to assume it does. After all, we’ve seen it happen. You can use another word for it, XYZ, whatever, but it doesn’t change the fact it does happen.

      What we’re trying to understand now is how. Genetic drift, natural selection, random mutation, the several controls and mechanisms that make biological creatures tick. That’s where the theory comes about, and the theory of evolution is far more complex than natural selection alone. It’s the best explanation we have to date that accounts for the hard, factual evidence we have, and if you have a better one (for the record and the crazies out there: Goddit doesn’t count), by all means, do share.

  • an agnostic

    @gnorthern gnome:
    wow. just… wow. you should write books or teach, if you don’t already.

  • Squetra

    Oh Gnome! I don’t know where you are going here.
    Theories are much more than simple human observation. They evolve and grow more coherent as we pitiful humans learn more.
    The idea of the flat earth theory is wrong, in the first place. We have known the earth is round since before christ supposedly appeared. And besides, this flat earth theory was before the scientific method was developed. Scientists are indeed imperfect little monkeys like the rest of us, but they know this and do the best they can!
    And are you saying here that gravity doesn’t exist? What is it that makes things fall, then? It’s observable, there are instruments to measure the force of gravity just as there are compasses to tell us where the poles are.
    Religion closes minds. The church was the entity who fought against the FACT that the Earth is round and not the center of the universe.
    Atheism is not faith. To me, it’s basically a theory, I guess, since my lack of belief in gods is based on observable facts. And just like I know that if I jump out a window I will fall to the ground and hurt myself, I know that there is no omnipotent entity watching me from the clouds.

  • http://northerngnome.wordpress.com/ Gnorthern Gnome

    @an agnostic: I don’t do either, I have a lack of patience for the latter and a lack of time for the former. But thanks non the less :)

    @Squetra: I think you overly interpreted my post, probably because I overly simplified it ;) I was suggesting that gravity does not exist, merely that it is a theory taken as fact. We may well “observe” a gravity-like phenomenon with our various scientific models and devices but we have little in means of evidence to support a logical reason for this. We have theory, in fact quite a few theories for gravity. Hopefully one day soon the LHC will be up and running and maybe then we could turn our eyes to locating a graviton (if they do indeed exist; and presuming the LHC has this theoretical capability) which would offer substantial evidence. But I would also point out that most of our instruments use Newtonian law to predict/record the phenomenon we describe as gravity. Yet now we look to models proposed by the likes of Einstein and others to help build trajectory mathematics for guiding space craft. We use two competing theories to successfully describe the same phenomenon; much like wave-particle duality within light. It is not that gravity does not exist but our theories to explain why it appears to are sorely lacking in substance.

    But I digress. The reasoning behind my examples, behind my entire post, was not to point and laugh at some of sciences greatest concepts. No, far from it. Instead it was meant as a rebuttal to the emphasis placed upon the term “scientific theory”; a means to show that theory, scientific or not, should never be confused with fact. Although I do agree with your argument that theories evolve I would stress that by the very definition they are only observations by our simple, simian species. That is the root cause: as we do indeed learn more as a species, our theories change and adapt, quite nicely fitting in with Darwinian natural selection. But more often than not, until one “imperfect little monkey” swims against the tide (maybe an overdose of metaphors but oh well) the majority will seemingly try to aid the evolution of the more popular theories, striking out aggressively to any competition. Close-mindedness is a trait of our species, designed to protect our ever evolving cranial abilities from overloading and going kaphut. I would agree that religion has indeed led to much regression in the fields of science and logic but it can also greatly open the mind if approached from a particular viewpoint. For me, conversion to religion has opened my mind both to science and to human psychology. It has been most refreshing.

    Oh and I have had the atheistic religion debate many a time, suffice to say that from my own perspective a religion is nothing more than a belief system based around faith. An atheist holds many beliefs and supports them with a faith that a god does not exist. Whether or not that is a religion or merely a belief-structure is a matter of semantics in my mind ;)

  • http://northerngnome.wordpress.com/ Gnorthern Gnome

    Sorry slight error in the above, in the second or third line I meant I was not suggesting that gravity does not exist. To suggest gravity is fallacy is ridiculous in the extreme :D

  • l33mix

    i worship, erm… nothing :D

  • Mr.Goo

    I am Lebanese ,a descendant of Canaanites , the Baal worshipers :P

    According to the Bible , we Canaanites have snake’s seeds in our blood lol

    I am atheist btw but …

    Baal kicks ass! :P

  • Mr.Goo

    Oh btw, we have a large region called Baalbek , it’s there the Phoenicians (Canaanites) built their first temple of Baal.

    There’s a theory that the ancient Israelites were in fact a southern Phoenician/Canaanite cult which developed to Judaism.

  • http://northerngnome.wordpress.com/ Gnorthern Gnome

    Oh hah you just reminded me, when I was in primary school myself and a friend decided to create our own religion where the world was reborn in fire every 5billion years; our “God” was a huge phoenix like creature so we called ourselves Phoenicians :P Imagine the shock when we googled it and discovered a real civilization and religion; we thought we were prophets for about a week xD

  • http://danaeverard.wordpress.com Dana

    There’s a lot of unexplored potential for creative religion. If we played it as a game, we’d learn a lot more about the human capacity to create a largely self-consistent reality. I enjoy being a Satanist in part because of the stance it affords me to critique and experiment with this human capacity.

    One of the most revealing dialogs I ever had took place with an evangelical. I asked if he ever consider it possible that he was wrong. To do so would be to question his faith, so he could not, he said. And he also took it as an admission from me that I wasn’t fully convinced of my own position. He’d missed my point that uncertainty was part of the fun, that it left the door open, when he wanted it shut.

    I guess it all depends on what kind of box you want to live in. I try to keep dynamite on hand whenever my box gets too oppressive. Sometimes someone else ends up setting it off instead of me, and after my initial shock, I realize I needed just that interference. Funny thing — there’s always something further on, outside the box, to fill in the crater left from the explosion.

    On the other hand, some boxes are great to visit for a while, and some have really great cable and room service and a view.

    Dana

  • GS

    “Note: This is satire.”

    Aren’t you underestimating a little your audience’s IQ?

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @GS: Unfortunately, I had to add that because there were a number of emails and comments from people who thought I was being quite serious. Of course, they were all Christians, but I figured I would make it explicit so they would understand.

  • Jesse

    Clever satire, Dan. What’s the point you’re trying to make with this post?

  • http://rcpc-br.com/coaching Bryan

    Sure Molly…not what holiday was that again… Mithrasmas?

  • J.R.

    Hello all;
    I was raised in a Christian home for most of my growing years. But, it has only been recently that I have started to think that there is no God. Growing up in the church and going to public school, I had questions that I was told was not having faith. I was then conditioned not to question authority and not to doubt the good word.

    I have only thought these things for the last month or so. I still contemplate daily, for hours on end, the validity of God or the lack there of. All I know is, that the more I look, the better arguements I find against faith.

  • J.R.

    Thank you LRA for your support. I find it interesting that you tell me that I should be supported by the people that me unconditionally. I am currently engaged to a very good woman. I mean good as in moral. She says she loves me, but she questions the new decision I have made. I don’t mind talking about this with her, but right after asking me something, she tells me it’s my bussiness and she doesn’t want to talk about. I’m glad I work where I do, I have found people I can talk to about atheism. It seems tabboo to the people that are suppossed to love me unconditionally. Thanks again for your support.

  • nakedwoadwarrior

    Hey there, just stumbled onto this blog. . .absolutely LOVE it! I myself am not an Atheist, rather the complete opposite – no, not a Christian, a POLYTHEIST! Lol, anyway I thought this post amusing and telling. I myself left evangelical Christianity much like Daniel did, but instead of going the skeptic route, I went the mystic one. I had an experience like Daniel did as well, where I thought “Hmph, Jesus never answers my prayers, let’s see who will.” I was stunned when my prayers were answered by ancient Gods whom I had been taught were devils. I think that the Old Gods are quick to answer because they are hungry for acknowledgement once more. They have grown weak without the ambrosia of our prayers and sacrifices, so they seek us out. . .my God Woden definitely sought me out, and wouldn’t leave me alone until I acquiesced to his desires for fellowship. So, while many here may see this “miracle” as a conincidence told in a tongue-in-cheek manner, I see it as a beautifully mundane synchronicity that the Gods seem to enjoy playing at!

    Keep blogging Daniel, I love your perspectives on Christianity. . .keep calling them out! Cheers on catching that wormy pastor at his game as well!

    • Jerdog

      So how many hands did you win?

    • Mike

      Gods don’t care about stupid little games.

      • Michael

        Atheists don’t care about stupid inane comments.

        • Kodie

          Homercles cares not for beans!

  • MaryLynne

    Hey, Tim,

    This is fun!

    “Because science has no facts toward creation or evolution and never will have, because no one was there to witness it.”

    This is actually not factually true. There are known facts about evolution and there are scientists who could explain based on the tons (probably literally – fossils are heavy) of physical evidence. I understand that YOU don’t understand it because you haven’t studied it, but that doesn’t mean the evidence doesn’t exist.

    If your belief system depends on eyewitness testimony, you might want to rethink Christianity. Jesus wrote nothing of his own teachings. As far as I can tell, scholars believe that no gospels were written during his lifetime, or the lifetime of any firsthand witnesses. The earliest gospels were written, I think, 40 years later? After any witnesses would have died since lifespans were 30 or 40 years, so they were writing stories they heard from parents or grandparents.

    Historians contemporary to Jesus did not write about him, the crowds that followed him, the trial, his death, or the resurrection, all amazing things that should have caught someone’s attention. The historians did write about other things going on at the time and historical figures, so it is not that records were not being kept. Nobody made a note of the date of the death – it had to be reconstructed and figured out later. (This seems like a VERY big gap to me – the resurrection is the center of the whole faith, and there is no record of when it was?) For other historical figures like Ceasar and Pilate we have records of when they died, so it isn’t that those records weren’t kept back then. Josephus was the one historian that included a few lines – odd if it is true; why only a short paragraph of one of the most important figures in history? But most scholars think it was added later by a scribe.

    Paul’s letters do not mention specifics about Jesus’ life, even if it would have made his arguments stronger, suggesting he did not know about them. One possible explanation: those facts were made up later.

    Of course, none of this proves there was no Jesus. You can’t prove a negative, any more than you can’t prove there is no invisible unicorn in my garden. But – it sure doesn’t look like there is evidence that he did exist.

    “No matter what science says all they will ever have is accepted theory.”

    A scientific theory is not like, “My theory is that it was in the library with a candlestick.”

    From Mirriam Webster: “Theory – A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.”

    In science, the theory of evolution is akin to the theory of gravity and the theory of relativity. No one is saying, “Gravity is just a theory. We need to explore other explanations for why terrestrial bodies tend to fall toward the center of the earth.”

    • Haime 52

      Actually Matthew and John are first hand accounts. Luke and Mark second hand accounts, most like from those who had first hand knowledge. One of the amazing things about the whole rise of Christianity is that these men, the disciples, went out with a boldness that they never before posessed, to spread the word of their risen Lord. Why would they do so if they knew it was a lie? And why, if all that was spoken is so hard to believe today, were the listeners back then, so easily persuaded to a new faith, when they most likely had their own already? What was it about this new teaching that made it so alluring to them and yet, so repugant to many today?
      Whether you wish to admit it or not, much of our social conscience, today, is due to a religion ahteists estchue. That is not to say or negate the times of intolerance perpetrated in religions name. False religion, the kind that maskerades as such with it main purpose being to gain or cement power, is anathema to true religion.
      Oh, you may think youselves superior because you have science that supposedly tells you what you want to hear. “You have no one to answer to or conform yourselves to. Ultimately, you have little moral obligation to anyone but yourselves.” If not for religion, where did moral concepts come from? Not from chimps, who tend to be promiscuous.
      Well did Paul say that” sprirtual things are spiritualy discerned” and “the things of God are foolishness to man and the things of man are as foolishness to God”.

      • Daniel Florien

        Matthew and John are first hand accounts? Where’s your proof for that? Both are anonymous gospels.

        • Daniel Florien

          And Matthew is based on Mark… so how can Matthew be first hand if Mark is second hand… nevermind, it’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. You should study the history of your own holy book more.

      • LRA

        “these men, the disciples, went out with a boldness that they never before posessed, to spread the word of their risen Lord. Why would they do so if they knew it was a lie? And why, if all that was spoken is so hard to believe today, were the listeners back then, so easily persuaded to a new faith, when they most likely had their own already? What was it about this new teaching that made it so alluring to them and yet, so repugant to many today?”

        This could be said about Buddhism pretty much verbatim and would also be “true”.

      • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

        First hand accounts…written by the apostles…who were illiterate? Um, yeah, sure.

      • Kodie

        WTF is “estchue”? I used to be in sales, and it was not uncommon for the managers to lie to me so I would be convincing enough to sell things to customers. I don’t think that’s new.

      • LRA

        “Whether you wish to admit it or not, much of our social conscience, today, is due to a religion ahteists estchue”

        (1) eschew

        (2) whether you wish to admit it or not, much of our social conscience evolved with our brains… ever heard of mirror neurons???

        http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html

      • Kodie

        If not for religion, where did moral concepts come from? Not from chimps, who tend to be promiscuous.

        I already replied but this really needs to be picked at separately. ????? Really, this is what you decide? Did moral concepts come from religion or chimps? Religion is created from humans… moral concepts come from humans and placed into a religious concept they also created. Is there an impediment to understanding evolution based on the promiscuity of chimpanzees? I.e., well, chimps tend to be promiscuous so we can’t have evolved from them because… Humans are promiscuous also, did our monogamous structures come from god or we decided that was good or we decided that was good and then pretended it was god’s idea or what? But humans are promiscuous. Are you slut-shaming? I mean, if god existed and humans are meant to be monogamous, he would have made it impossible not to be. However, we can drop trou anytime we like, and a lot of people do, and in a lot of cultures, men particularly are excused from the bounds of fidelity on the grounds they are an animal and they can’t help themselves. Awfully convenient, if there’s a god!

        It just basically blew me over to read this, though. It’s not like evolution doesn’t make a lot of sense, it’s the near-admission by people who believe in creation or ID that it seems almost possible except for one ridiculous hang-up. Monkeys are sluts, adultery is a sin, therefore our morals had to come from god, which narrowly but definitely eliminates evolution from plausibility. Feel free to ignore the obvious and evident, whatever you want to believe is true, that’s why it’s called “wishful thinking.”

  • MaryLynne

    Hi, Tim,

    “How many times has science corrected itself and scientist’s had to deal with the fact that everything they knew was wrong, until it corrects itself again? Science says so. So it must be!”

    See, that’s one of our major points – science corrects itself. Being human, individual scientists might hang onto a cherished belief for a little while, but the whole point is to find out what is real based on the evidence. We no longer use leeches to cure disease, etc. Physicists LOVED superstring theory, for example, and the books being written in the late 80’s you would think were the bible. However, it could not be proved. It has not been disproven as far as I know, but it has not been proven after years of experiments, so now books are coming out in which some physicists are rethinking and looking for other theories that can be proven to explain reality.

    Religion does not correct itself. No one has said, “After years of study and experiment, it turns out that homosexuality is not a grevious sin, but a biological matter.” Individuals might decide they don’t like a particular part and don’t believe it, but the field of religion, as it were, does not correct itself.

    A scientist who still believes leeches cure disease is a crackpot. A religious person who still believes that gays are an abomination against God is OK.

    “There is nothing horrible about Christian teachings.”

    Tim, if yours is truly only a personal faith that inspires you, great. You go, guy. But you know perfectly well that Christianity and the beliefs it requires has been used to justify some really awful things. Crusades, witch burnings and killings of “heathens” throughout history, persecution of Jews and other non-Christians, all the way to shaping current social and political policies like abortion, science education, gay marriage and adoption, and our policies toward Israel. THAT is why we are concerned about this at all. If it was just you and your god, why would anyone else care? But decisions based on a false belief system are impacting MY life – that’s why we are here talking about it.

    • Dale701

      A scientist who still believes leeches cure disease is a crackpot. A religious person who still believes that gays are an abomination against God is OK.

      This is not true, they still use them for certain conditions.
      A minor correction for a valid point.

  • Francesc

    yeah, if you accept that your proof for god is your faith, meaning that there is not any objective reason to believe in him, meaning that it is an irrational believe, i can’t do anything more than agree with you and respect your believes provided that you don’t try to impose any of your morals (derived from your irrational believes) upon me.

    RAmen!

  • Master_Amaras

    …Are you serious??

    HA!! ROFLOL!!!

    Homigosh….you’ve got to be kidding me!! Baal?!

    Oh, oh, and look at this…you won TWO WHOLE CARD GAMES by praying to Baal!!

    O GREAT BAAL!!
    Come on, seriously, can’t you come up with anything better than that? Maybe I’m a god, because I can beg my game dice to roll the number I want every now and again! Or perhaps the dice are the gods??
    Hahaha….roflol…
    Come on, do something real. O great Baal, if you exist, blow up my house please! If you exist, publish my book for me, please!!
    HA!

  • Alan Terlep

    “Stalin, etc. weren’t vicious because they were atheists.”

    I didn’t say they were. All I know is that they killed a lot of people because they weren’t atheists–and, in fact, because they didn’t subscribe to the right version of atheism. They mobilized people around atheism in exactly the same way that religious totalitarian governments mobilized people around specific religions (Christianity, Shinto, or whatever).

    Medieval knights were mass murderers long before the Pope had the bright idea to get them to murder Muslims instead of Christian peasants. In the 4th Crusade, when the Muslims turned out to be too hard to beat, the Crusaders went after other Christians instead. If anything, Stalin was more committed to spreading atheism than the Crusaders were committed to spreading Christianity.

  • Rap

    Question to a Christian: How do you know your faith is justified?
    Answer: Because the Bible tells me so.
    Question: How do you know what the Bible tells you is true?
    Answer: Because my faith tells me so.

    With this type of thinking process, there is really not much you can do.

    Having faith is like being in love. If you truly love someone, the loved one’s inconsistencies, lies, cruelty, selfishness, horrible pasts or physical ugliness shouldn’t matter. We can’t change the person’s mind by pointing out all that. Once he or she is in love, that usually is the end of the story.

    The lesson here, I think, is if we think someone is falling in love with a terrible person, we should let them know beforehand, if we truly care for them. That is why early childhood religious education can be so alarming (see the movie “Jesus Camp”). Is it desirable that parents should have the sole right to force a particular set of beliefs on to their trusting and impressionable young children? What if parents were teaching white supremacy or anti-semitism at home? I am NOT saying that society should interfere with what the parents can tell their children, and I am NOT advocating a Big Brother type religious regulator. What I am suggesting is that given the dangers of a particular religious belief being forced upon unsuspecting children (which may potentially harm them for life), a social program of open discussions about various religious beliefs and the freedom to not join a particular organized religion would be beneficial. If Christians, or followers of any other religion, are sure of the superiority of their beliefs, their children learning about other “inferior” religion should not hurt their children’s spirituallity; it would actually strengthen them.

  • digsclarity

    Baal, Almighty Baal, I am on my way to a poker game. Someone down the street in a building, standing at a pulpit told me that you answer prayers about card games and right now I really need your help! I worship you Baal and I am on bended knees as your faithful servant. Wait, I think I hear something ….. You already know what I want? You insist that I pray only for thy will be done? Your will for me is already determined? Oh, hold on, I hear something else ……. What are you saying? Pray to you because you want a “relationship” with me and that it will be comforting for me to know that you hear my thoughts?
    Jesus Christ this is getting confusing!
    Baal I just need some cash winnings, I promise I’ll tithe when I can.
    Let’s see if I have it straight?
    You already know what I want, but you want me to ask for it anyway because you desire a relationship with me? Now, when I tell you about these things I want, there is really no way I can influence the outcome because your will for me is already determined? How about if someone else prays to you for me? Can I win then? WTF are you talking about “in your time”? You know Baal, this stuff is really starting to sound like bunk to me. What do you mean if I blasphemy you I will burn in hell? umm umm wait a second …….. Please forgive me Lord Baal, I almost forgot, with you in my heart I am always a winner and I am so grateful that you always answer my prayers.

  • digsclarity

    Baal, Almighty Baal, I am on my way to a poker game. Someone down the street in a building, standing at a pulpit told me that you answer prayers about card games and right now I really need your help! I worship you Baal and I am on bended knees as your faithful servant. Wait, I think I hear something ….. You already know what I want? You insist that I pray only for thy will be done? Your will for me is already determined? Oh, hold on, I hear something else ……. What are you saying? Pray to you because you want a “relationship” with me and that it will be comforting for me to know that you hear my thoughts?
    Jesus Christ this is getting confusing!
    Baal I just need some cash winnings, I promise I’ll tithe when I can.
    Let’s see if I have it straight?
    You already know what I want, but you want me to ask for it anyway because you desire a relationship with me? Now, when I tell you about these things I want, there is really no way I can influence the outcome because your will for me is already determined? How about if someone else prays to you for me? Can I win then? WTF are you talking about “in your time”? You know Baal, this stuff is really starting to sound like bunk to me. What do you mean if I blasphemy you I will burn in hell? umm umm wait a second …….. Please forgive me Lord Baal, I almost forgot, with you in my heart I am always a winner and I am so grateful that you always answer my prayers.

  • Janet Greene

    I suggest that more people should be praying to Baal. The reason is clear from your article. You prayed, you won. ‘Nuff said. But seriously though, I have a hard time with people who pray and give god the credit when something good happens. Let me share a quick story with you. A work colleague was telling me about a miracle. They had moved to Israel, and he wanted a high-level government job. He was qualified, but they gave him the test in the wrong language. He failed the test, and didn’t get the job. They were very angry about it. Then one day the office, where he would have been working, was bombed. 9 people killed. My colleague said to me “God miraculously saved my husband from being killed”. This really bothered me. My comment just slipped out – “I guess God didn’t answer the prayers of the 9 people who WERE killed”. She looked like I’d slapped her, and as though she had never thought of that. Why is it that when we avoid something terrible, we think god saved us? What does that say about all the people who die tragically? A real pet peave for me.

    • Michael R

      I’m totally with you on this, Janet. It’s mind-boggling how people can have such tunnel-vision. Everything that goes how they want it to is proof of God’s lovingkindness, but when things go south he never gets the blame. It’s crazy.

      • Mike

        It is indeed crazy and stupid. Christians are not supposed to think. Knowledge is the original sin.

        Ancient people didn’t know everything, but there was never any edict that forbade learning or knowledge. And certainly not a massive “church” or series of churches to hide, corrupt, and destroy knowledge.

  • http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/ Monado

    Actually, Erm, if he’d lost at Crazy Eights it would have proved the existence of Baal, too. It would have proved that Baal, in His wisdom, had other plans for his card-player.

  • http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/ Monado

    Actually, Erm, if he’d lost at Crazy Eights it would have proved the existence of Baal, too. It would have proved that Baal, in His wisdom, had other plans for his card-player.

    These days, clean maggots are used for cleaning wounds by removing dead tissue and leaving live tissue more precisely than any scalpel can. Leeches are used not to remove blood and its bad humours, but to keep a trickle of circulation flowing through fingertips and toetips so that they have a chance to heal instead of dying, e.g. after re-attachment. They are used because they’ve been tested and found useful for those exact purposes. Leeches are not used the way they used to be.

  • http://www.atheist-theory.blogspot.com Terry Burton

    When you decide to be reasonable … stop by Atheist Central
    for a healthy debate.

    You are welcome to browse my blogs for information and the evidence that is presented.

  • http://www.chucklasker.com Chuck Lasker

    I used to be a Satan worshiper alcoholic witch. I participated in animal sacrifices while high on the weed and the cocaine. Then one day I awoke and saw Baal at the foot of my bed. He showed me the way to the truth. That day I attended a local Baal church and was slain in the Lord Baal. I immediately lost all desire for alcohol and the drugs, repented my Satanic ways, and gave my life to Baal. My lack of alcoholism and drug addiction is proof of the existence and mercy of Baal. And my personal experience with Baal at the foot of my bed is proof He exists that you must accept. Are you calling me a liar? Praise Baal, I am saved. You, too, can be saved. Simply accept Baal into your heart, repent your sins, and you will be a new man. Baal said it, I believe it, that settles it.

    Smirk.

    • Janet Greene

      That’s so WIERD. I had the exact same experience.

  • Gabe

    Christianity- the reason more people have died in history than any other cause in history. More than two thousand years of murder, genocide, torture and slaughter. Almost every current war on this planet can be traced in some form back to Christendom, either by it’s influence in the Middle East (Crusades) or to the drug war in the America’s (The conquest of Mexico and the destruction of the Inca’s by the Spanish Conquistadors).

    For the Crusades alone they can never atone for what they did. How do you justify the full sale slaughter of men women and children? For the fact that they roasted babies alive to eat? And of course the reason the American’s are in the Iraq war- For the destruction of the City of Peace into the City of Chaos that it is now.

    Frankly I worship the one thing that I know exists- Death. Can you refute Death? No. Can you prove that Death does not exist? No.

    • http://www.chucklasker.com Chuck Lasker

      I agree that Christians have been behind many wars and many mass-murders. However, I can’t say that WWII was about Christianity. Hitler was not a Christian, neither was Stalin, nor was the Japanese power base that started their side of the war.

      52 million or so people died in WWII. So, I don’t know if I agree that “more people have died in history than any other cause in history” regarding Christianity. Here’s some more statistics that I believe show that non-Christian (although often religious) causes were behind most war deaths.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll

      My belief is that ALL organized religions that create “us against them” tribal mentalities (most of them) will have to cease to exist before war can be ended in any long term way.

      • Musa

        “Hitler was not a Christian . . .”

        Actually, Hitler was a Christian. He was raised as a Catholic.

    • Louis Geer

      I think there are quite a few non-believers that have as much blood on there hands if not more..

      the Roman Empire, Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc. I could go but remember it wasn’t Christianity

      that killed these people it was organized religion.

      Phil

      • rodneyAnonymous

        You have successfully burned the straw man labeled “all murder, genocide, and war is caused by Christianity”.

        • Ty

          Did he mean the Roman Empire before or after it adopted Christianity?

          Because the pre-Christian empire was known for it’s integration of other faiths and cultures in the empire. Post Christianity, it was more known for pogroms and genocides.

    • Musa

      “Christianity- the reason more people have died in history than any other cause in history.”

      I agree with you, but I would expand that to: More people have been killed in the name of the god of Abraham than in the name of any other deity.

    • Elemenope

      Honestly I think Cholera, Malaria, and Tuberculosis all beat Christianity on death toll.

      But only just.

      • Mike

        Perhaps, but they would have had a harder time killing people if christianity never existed as christians jews and muslims have been notorious for razing libraries to the ground and destroying knowledge that could have been used to save people and uplift the human race.

        Pagan religions do not have such a track record. In fact, Pagan religions suffered the same fate at the hands of this “god” of the buybull.

        Paganism is NOTHING like christianity. Think of the Native Americans and how they lived before white christians invaded their homeland. Funny – Vikings (Pagan) had come there hundreds of years before and when they had disagreements with the Native Americans, sometimes they fought it out, sometimes used diplomacy. But in the end, they turned around and LEFT. They went HOME and left the Native Americans alone in peace.

        Christians on the other hand……………..

        • Michael

          Christians on the other hand……………..

          . . . had larger ships and a greater drive for colonization.

          I don’t know why you idolize the vikings.

  • http://www.copperflowerstudios.4t.com CopperFlower

    To the OP, you definitely have a touch for satirical writing!

  • http://www.palibandaily.com JennyD

    @ RavingLoony (Waaaaay up there)

    I also found a very different Baal at, well, “baal.com”.

    Yepper, he’s got his own website now.

  • http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/Baal Pyvsi

    I should probably have a little talk with Ba’al myself, tell him all about my problems…
    Besides, he is rather cute. See the link in my moniker

  • Fe De

    Since I embraced hell “the absence of God”–of the Judaeo-Christian god (Jesus)–the revised Christian idea of hell, I’ve never been so happy in my life–no more micro-management of my Activities of Daily Living (ADL)–what to eat and what not to eat (no shrimps); when to stop/start working (Sabbath-keeping), etc. I think “the separation” from this Jesus god is the best definition of heaven with Mithra, or Baal for no eternity in hell.

  • Michael Washburne

    ahh very interesting since my life might be torn into some wierd in between these religions. I was born on a bike on the way to the hospital. My mother told me recently she wanted to abort me but that night jesus and mary visited her in a dream and questioned why she wanted to give up this gift that she wanted. Also she says when she was pregnant with me an old lady tried to kill the baby in her *me* and that a bunch of spirits would visit her just to say hi. I’ve had several unexplainable events occur to me. At the age of 8 i had my first NDE = Near Death experience. Basicly was on a hill falling towards a train my life flashed before my eyes than i was floating in this dark place and than i felt my hand move by itself and grab a root sticking out of the hill i never saw there. I remember opening my eyes and seeing the sun. Around the age of 10-12 i believe in magic and made a cup of hot cocoa move through deep concentration. Than after 3 days str8 of playing my n64 i forgot to eat drink or sleep. On the 3rd day i started going crazy a lil talking to a toy duck and beating up my pillow cuz i was so angry i couldn’t sleep. Shortly after I felt the back of my brain open up and it felt like something was pouring out. The time was around 2:10am A voice called out my name several times. This will be a short version of what actually happened but basicly I seen shadows crawl unto the wall and it was a pharoah looking person sitting on a bamboo/ wood like structure being lifted by 2 servants. He told me to draw him a picture and than ni saw a vision of people chipping apart rocks. But than one of my eyes was seeing the present. I ran to my moms room and told her i think something is wrong wit me she gave me nyquil and told me to get sleep. I heard a voice saying it would be back on a certain date because i havent recorded this instance directly after i don’t know the exact date. Age 16-18 i went through a great depression cuz of events going on in my life involving me running away and suicide attempts. I’ve seen a man sitting upon a great throne that was bejewled and he shined bright white and gold. Seeing him made me feel so insignificant but than made me feel warmed and relaxed. So i proceeded to fall asleep outside on the bench since i was locked outside my house after running away. Another time i drew a pentagram and offered my soul to be tested and said whoever thought my soul worthy to challenge me and if won could have it. Slowly i gradually felt drained and one day around 4 in the afternoon had to go 2 sleep. When i was sleeping i felt something drag me towards the end of the bed. The best way to describe what it was is like a grim reaper thing like off of harry potter. It had tattered black clothing showed no physical features but something kept the clothing in the shape of something. It moved as if it was controlling me like a puppet. It even moved me off the bed i tried to call for help but my voice was gone. I prayed for help because remembered somewhere that prayer was an old sacred language used to talk to god. Than i gradually felt this uneasy heavy feeling go away I opened my eyes from what i thought was sleep but a sparkling rose was floating above my dresser than the stem dissappeared than the bud. Now age 18-20 I got into zazen meditation again. Becuase i thought it would help me decide what i want to do wit my life. My friends did drugs i tried but grew out of it than My friends did 3c so i tried it cuz i like to understand people and what they go through by experiencing it first hand. It made me hallucinate random and mundane things but also i found it stimulated my brain and made my immagination run wild. So i figured what would happen if i was able to concentrate all these thoughts into one thing. I meditated on 3c and something impossible happened. I came to a state where i fell out my body and went into the clouds. During this i felt as if some1 was protecting my body while i was away. My body built up a large amount of electric energy that became audible. My friends had left the room and were in the living room. My friend Kendon said as he was leaving for the living room the air got thick and felt it was hard for him to breath. Than he felt depressed all of a sudden. Before i fell out my body i felt 3 waves of energy hit me out of nowhere. He thought i had something to do wit it so in his distraught state tried to tell me i took his energy but than he said he felt electricity surge throughout his body and he couldn’t think str8 and couldn’t concentrate. The bed i was meditating in belonged to my friend i was there for hours so she had to sleep she touched me to tell me she had to sleep I went back into my body but she said every time she touched me she shocked. I showed my trick to my friends my friend Kendon did it wit me. What i found very strange when i did it with him during meditation when i looked at him through closed eye lids i saw him in a black silhoutte BUT 2 other figures where there with him a girl and a guy. He said during the meditation he found a guy he seen before that protected him from Bloody Mary when he was lil and the guy looked like him but as he did in his present. But that guy h8ed him because it said he was weak. He saw it try to attack me it was on all fours facing me. But i had a shield of electricity around me suppposedly cracked. Now my other friend tried it Joshua. He came in contact with a fireball in a cage and released it. He than begain to build up so much fire energy i had to move away from him because it was like standing next to a bonfire. But than i was being burned on the inside of my leg. Well after all this i wanted to prove that what we did was not due to the drugs. I stayed sober and tried zazen meditation again. It took 6 hours but i got into the state of mind i reach alot faster on the drug. Its a state where u basicly through ur eyes closed see almost all the normal setting of the room ur in but its all in grey and somethings are out of place. Immediately when i was in this state the audible sparks of electricity were around me. I was so happy that i was able to do it but in my excitement lost concentration so the electricty left. I been having these weird almost prophetic dreams. The last one to come true left me wit burned scars on my right foot, Asleep on a church altair, and in a hospital. I basicly repented for every thing i did wrong or thought may have been wrong in my life. This happened the day the Saints one the Super Bowl. The church i was in had a clock behind the main doors it was around 1am when I was done repenting i was in the middle of the church on my knees crying saying i don’t know what to do. I seen out of the cornor of both my eyes a very bright golden light from behind me but it was 1am in the morning it was like the sun. I didn’t look to see what it is but i than heard the cloth on the altair hit the ground thats when i got onto it and fell asleep. I was brought to the hospital because police found me in the church i began to see things w8ing to see my diagnosis. I seen clouds turn into little angels. A rooster that was somehow almost like a peacock and shined brightly. Than i saw the bible it the pages where turning to somehting. But i than opened my eyes it seen something different everytime i closed them. There was a white tube like funnel coming out of nowhere going in between my eyes. Almost towards the pineal gland which is thought to be the spirit molocule. Ofcourse they found nothing wrong wit me, spinal fluids and everything was stable. They all thought it was due to drugs or thought i was on acid. The next day riding with my mother to pick up my lil sister from school I noticed the clouds where moving pretty fast in the area outside my window. Its like some1 was drawing in the sky. In the circle of clouds where the light of the sun shined through the clouds took the shape of a herd of sheep with One wolf on the left side of them. Almost home i kept looking for the sun but than the clouds parted weird my text i just typed got deleted so srry i won’t tell u what i saw next. But my sister was able to see it
    also. I tried to record this electricty phenomenom to post it on youtube to show peeps what zazen meditation can do if done correctly. But when i did a voice said in the back of my head said u know this is being recorded right? a being inside me in my exact meditation stance with all the electricty around him just stepped outside my body and walked away. My last meditation i built up the electricity again but it went away and a voice said if u wish to control my power u must make a pact. Also recently i found out on my left wrist like naturally engraved in my skin is the letters “Jc” just like that back to back Capital J and a lower case c i’am trying to understand whats going on cuz i found that what i discovered through meditation if it can be controlled would save our humanity from its ongoing troubles with global warming. But i know people in the world if this power was controllable there would be sum that would use it for there own personal gain instead of helping. I’am currently still trying to figure out some things U guys haven’t even heard my full story cuz i left some parts out i leave u know to ur own conclusions. Oh P.S some dreams i have i spoke in Turkish while reading a book I came across the word Farlarla meaning fog lantern. It could be related maybe to the revelations prophecy. But iono jus keeping an open mind

  • Michael Washburne

    Regarding Woden’s wooing of me, I had some strange occurences that could easily be explained away as coincidence if not for the gut-feelings associated with those happenstances. For instance, I never saw many crows around until Woden had taken an interest. One of his animals is the raven / crow.

    NakedWoadWarrior kinda interested in this cuz from what sum may think that crows personify the aspect of death or something along those lines. I’ve meditated and after the session walked outside to see 7+ crows outside on my tree just squacking like crazy. Even after work i would walk to target and c 2-3 crows in a small tree in the parking lot squacking. Turns out
    1-2 weeks l8er my friends father died.

    I wonder if any1 would tell me if seeing a owl and a eagle land on a branch next to one another and just watched u. Would have a signficant meaning? I find it to be a rather rare ocassion they even left at the same time like they followed one another.

  • wprestong

    Baal rules!

    I had my own conversion experience a number of years ago when we performed Mendelssohn’s Elijah in a chorus at Stanford University. We tenors had to sing “Baal, we cry to thee! Baal, we cry to thee!”

    I completely lost it. I was hooked. I now witness for Baal every chance I get!

    OK, no I don’t because the Comment Policy says “No evangelizing”. And anyway, I don’t have to convert you, because Baal will get you himself.

  • http://unreasonablefaith/Irrefutableproof.... c payne

    The Power that caused all things in existance to exist has throughout all existance been manifesting Him/Her Self in all things that came into existance. The greatest of these manifests throughout all times and all creations was the creating of intelligent mankind as intelligent beings, brought about by an intelligent Power. Gods and their holy alters, holy sacrifices, holy rituals, holy writings and holy temples came from ignorant superstition.

    • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

      Got proof?

      • Bill

        Never mind proof – I’d settle for a scrap of evidence.

  • kabariaku

    Alan Terlep: I’m a first timer her and an atheist from a nation with the largest number of Muslim believer, Indonesia. However, if I may,

    “Indonesia (Muslims v Timorese Christians)”

    That one was not religion-based war. It may be seen as so because the Indonesian soldier sent to East Timor were mostly of Javanese tribe, who then were seen as mostly Muslims. The war was about the East-Timorese wanting to govern their own land after Portugal’s withdrawal as its colonial ruler and the Indonesian government trying to annex the land for Indonesia.

    Sorry if this is off topic.

  • Filip

    Religions are created by us. Human beings, from the very beginning, needed an explanation of surrounding world. This is basically how religions were ‘invented’ and how they evolved.
    This idea seems for me to be so obvious and natural, but, off course, I have nothing against other people, that think different. Everyone should have a right to believe whatever one wants to and should accept others believes.
    I think that there may some creationist force, that by a big boom started universe. I certainly think that ‘God’ is more likely such a force and every religion seems for me to simplify things.
    I am not sure whether we have the ability to ever discover the full story of how the things started and ‘who’ started it all. Althoug what we achieved is huge, the are some limitations for us, human beings :-)
    What do you people think about it ?

    Regards for all!!

  • corky

    i’d like someone to quote for me the biblical scripture that describes santa claus, just to clear things up. and please tell me how a fecking elf got so fat. is he full of joy, hot air, or booze? thank you for your future replies.

    i’d also like to know when i can sacrifice my neighbors and their pets through a ritual that will grant me the power to win games like uncle wiggly, and candy land. barbatos, anyone?

    meanwhile, i’m wondering if anyone has seen my Alfredo?
    may he return home in safety, so that i might devour him.
    Ramen.

    • Kodie

      @ Corky – Santa Claus is fat, one because everyone gives him cookies. You would not think a one-night cookie binge is so bad, even if that means a lot of cookies, you think the rest of the year, maybe he is eating salad. Not true. He is eating venison. Venison is lower in fat and calories than beef, but he is eating a whole lot of it. It is cheaper to raise new reindeer than feed the old ones year after year, so he eats them, and he doesn’t hold back. Lastly, booze, yes. Why do you think Santa is so jolly? He drinks. Christmas is depressing for a lot of people, and for what reason? People are lonely and they don’t have enough money to buy gifts for people who don’t like anything, or enough time to select them. Santa Claus has a strict deadline, and all he gets in return is cookies. Have you ever bought an ipod or a diamond necklace or even a sturdy parka for someone and they handed you a tin of butter cookies? As much as we pretend not to be offended, it’s depressing we are worth only a tin of butter cookies to someone we spend hard cash on.

      Imagine Santa’s dilemma. He has trapped himself into an expectation, and many animated features reiterate this fact. Santa is tired and wants to quit, but is beholden to the expectations of an increasing population with increasing expectations. You can’t get someone an ipod one year and a 12-pack of diet coke the next, and neither can Santa. You will be kidding yourself to believe he’s not drunk. And what I said about venison, though, he eats his reindeer because, after Christmas, he promises himself, it’s the last one, just like I do. The reindeer will only get tougher if he doesn’t eat them, and by this time next year, Santa’s like, “Oh god, why” when the calendar says “day after Thanksgiving,” he turns on the radio and hears Hall & Oates singing… he can’t disappoint anyone so he drinks a lot and sallies forth.

  • Custador

    Haime 52, you’re posting drivel in a forum full of atheists, many of whom are ex-Christians who clearly studied the history of the Bible a damned sight more than you, and some of whom (like myself) have never been Christian but have taken the time and effort to learn the history of many world religions. In short, if you’re going to post something that your pastor has told you, then check if it’s true first. It’ll save you looking silly, and it might do you good to realise just how many lies your church has taught you.

  • http://ntrygg.wordpress.com nina

    Odin rules plus he’s got the coolest horse

  • Jon

    Cute attempt but you really proved a basic principle, the principle of credulity. The principle states that unless there is good evidence to the contrary, if someone experiences something, they should probably believe that it is true. We do this all the time, and not just with religion. For instance, Abraham Lincoln was shot to death. I have no real proof that he was shot, besides that of history textbooks and testimony of his death. It just so happens that testimony is also a positive by which we can test something. If many people have the same testimony and there is nothing that rules it out, then it is likely that their testimony is true. Science has made many claims that were thought to be true but later discovered to be false. This is done through the process of scientific discovery. Sometimes it is OK to believe in something that presents good reason for belief in it such as God.

    • Sunny Day

      Cute attempt but you really proved a basic principle, the principle of credulity.

      A principle you seem to whole heartedly embrace. Wishing something true does not make it true.

      “The principle states that unless there is good evidence to the contrary, if someone experiences something, they should probably believe that it is true… (later on) … It just so happens that testimony is also a positive by which we can test something. If many people have the same testimony and there is nothing that rules it out, then it is likely that their testimony is true. ”

      Oh so Islam is true, Judaism is true, Scientology is true, and Norse Mythology is true. I didn’t know you were a believer of so many contradictory religions.

      “For instance, Abraham Lincoln was shot to death. I have no real proof that he was shot, besides that of history textbooks and testimony of his death.”

      Only because you’re lazy. If you wanted to research you can dig for the medical report of the Dr who treated President Lincoln, the news reports, interviews from people who viewed his dead body there is a massive amount of evidence and documentation available.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funeral_and_burial_of_Abraham_Lincoln

      Science has made many claims that were thought to be true but later discovered to be false. “

      This is a strength of the scientific method it works to eliminate the principle of credulity

      Sometimes it is OK to believe in something that presents good reason for belief in it such as God.

      Those good reasons are?
      I’m betting they are as hollow and empty as your claims of scientific proof for Intelligent Design.
      For you to conflate the mountains of evidence that we have for someone that has existed with the Mythical and Legendary character is just laughable.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    Point: People try to prove the existence of God by prayers that would have a good chance of being answered even if there was no god.

  • Jesse

    Well man Christians certainly do attempt to convince atheists via this form of ‘proof’. Good point. It’s not convincing.

    But don’t some atheists argue similar ‘proofs’? The ol’ classic goes: “God if you exist, then strike me down!” followed by well, absolutely nothing. Even if God existed, who’s to say he’d be jump through that hoop? Isn’t that a bit like treating God like a circus dog?

  • http://rcpc-br.com/coaching Bryan

    It appears to me that the “intelligent design” argument only really appeals to the intelligent.

  • Francesc

    Nonsense. I can’t believe that anything as sophisticated and complex as god came from virtually nothing and resulted by chance then snowballed into what it is now
    …
    Nonsense. I can’t believe that anything as sophisticated and complex as a god’s creator came from virtually nothing and resulted by chance then snowballed into what it is now
    …
    should I go on?

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    Really? Seems to me it only appeals to superstitious woos. :)

  • Amandeep

    I get the gist of this post. But it bothers me that none of the sentences in the second paragraph are error free.

  • nakedwoadwarrior

    I would say that Jesus wasn’t necessarily causation, he probably wasn’t even correlation.

    Many Xtians I have come across use similar ploys to get under another’s skin. I personally find it amusing. I am happy that you rehabilitated from a destructive lifestyle. . .but the source of that lifestyle was most likely a psychological one rather than original sin.

    Your subsequent rebirth had little to do with the mythical personage of Jesus, and more to do with the fact that your deeply believed that you needed to change to please your diety, thus you did. All things are possible for those who will it to be so.

    Sometimes one’s own self-respect/safety is not enough incentive. Some people find religion, others find strength in their children. I have yet to see a parent diefy their child because they “gave them the conviction” to turn their lives around.

    There is nothing essentially wrong with spirituality, as belief-systems can give people the inspiration to live better lives. The problem is when the spirituality becomes more than just personal inspiration, when it tranforms into the perceived ideal inspiration for *all* people. This is fundamentalism, this is the ideology that causes people to be enslaved, cultures made extinct and bigotry and hatred to run rampant.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    Yeah, it must be hard to go through life caring so much about other people’s grammar.

  • Jesse

    Wow, I made some embarrassing typos in the last post…

    Well Dan Christians certainly do attempt to convince atheists via this form of ‘proof’. Good point. It’s not a convincing line of argumentation.

    But don’t some atheists argue similar ‘proofs’? The ol’ classic goes: “God if you exist, then strike me down!” followed by well, absolutely nothing. Even if God existed, who’s to say he’d jump through that hoop? Isn’t that a bit like treating God like a circus dog?

  • bttrflyscar

    Oddly, I find the more I study and grow in the faith, the more “open-minded” I become. Also reading the Bible is making my brain bigger somehow…(?) I wonder why? It could be all the new historical information, the understanding of allegorical principles, and the valuable education I am gaining to lead a valuable, productive life. Not a life full of excuses that allows me to perpetuate my thoughtless, careless, unhealthy behavior. That, in my opinion, is what closes the mind.

  • twosticks

    I for one am comfortable with my ma’at, and confident of it’s weight.

  • reckoner71

    @Tim, who suggested, “God does not physically show himself to believers.” Um. Yeah, he does.

    When he needs to take human form and sacrifice himself to himself, to circumvent a law he created, in order to save us from his wrath.

    Homework for christians:
    1. Explain away the absurdity of this sentence.

    Show your work.

  • John C

    “I didn’t use intellectual arguments. That would have made the cross of Christ lose its meaning. The message about the cross is nonsense to those who are perishing, but it is God’s power to us who are being made whole, restored. 1 Cor 1:17 & 18.

    But of course you already know and reject this verse because it makes “no sense” to you. God said it wouldnt, why should we be surprised by any other outcome than what Truth has already declared to be?

    You exalt yourSelf above the truth of God’s higher Being, His preeminence…this is not wise although in your (own) mind it “makes sense” because nothing you can “see” with your natural eyes in this temporal realm is sensible about “God” so you mock and ridicule that which you do not comprehend.

    There is great wisdom in humility…but pride, well not so much.

  • LRA

    Dear JR

    I have been where you are, and it is not easy! You have my compassion and my support. I hope that you will learn to cherish thinking for yourself. I hope that your choices in life will be supported by people who should love you unconditionally no matter what! I can’t say that I’ll pray for you, but I will definitely send positive thoughts your way (whatever that means!).

    Sincerely,

    LRA

  • nakedwoadwarrior

    Hey there J.R. I too support you in your quest for free-thought. I know how hard it is to leave the cult of Christ, but it gets easier the more you research and think.

    If you ever find yourself treading into the realm of mysticism, shoot me a message on my blog http://nakedwoadwarrior.wordpress.com/

    I would be more than happy to suggest some good books or to discuss polytheism with ya!

    Good luck on your journey!

  • LRA

    Well, I’ve not asked God to jump though a hoop. I’ve earnestly prayed that I want to be part of God’s kingdom, and to please, please, please accept me and show me his/her will. And that I’d give up all of my freedom if only God would reveal him/herself (as happened to many people in the bible). Yet…..

    Nothing!

    Humility doesn’t work. So I can’t imagine what does…

  • LRA

    So glad I could offer it! Keep posting here and on other articles Dan has written… you’ll find me there! :)

  • nakedwoadwarrior

    I believe what Aquaria was trying to point out is that all cultures religions have the same essential stories, the same essential teachings and the same essential purposes. She questioning why your belief system should have any preeminence over any of the others. As a Polytheist, I believe in all Gods, all Religions and all “miracles” as being *possible*, however I apply a goodly amount of skepticism when dealing with personal encounters with dieties.

    Even though I acknowledge that all Gods exist, I don’t try to worship them all. I worship the Scandinavian Gods of my ancestors. Their presence in my life is all that I care about, when I die I believe I will go to the Norse afterlife, not your Hell, nor the Buddhist Hell, nor the Hindu Karmic Wheel. Those who subscribe to those belief systems will go where their beliefs dictate. A Christian who dies believing that they failed to walk their faith. . .with guilt in their heart, will most likely burn for an eternity. . .pity for them. If they died a Heathen (such as myself), they would go to a twilight world of somber solitude to reflect upon their life and then be reborn for another chance at things. A Heathen who goes out of this world with victory in their heart, or dies in battle will have a blessed place in the afterlife, just as Christian who dies with surety of their salvation will ascend to their Heaven.

    What gives you the right to declare that all other faiths of the world are defunct and that yours is the watermark? Who are you to say that I am going to burn in your hell? Or, as you so subtly put it, that I have two choices, if I don’t want to go to Heaven. . .I can go elsewhere, but I shant like it much. Such arrogance. Keep your Heaven, keep your Hell. I will go to feast in the halls of my ancestors!

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    What kinds of prayers did these old gods answer? Anything that could have only be done supernaturally? Were they anything that you can verify through some kind of evidence? Just curious.

  • nakedwoadwarrior

    Well, there were of course the slew of “coincidences” that I view as synchronicity, but one of the largest concerns I had was for my son. My son was only 8 months old and came down with Influenza A and Pneumonia. He was running a 104 degree fever (usually fatal in a child) and was getting no oxygen, his lips were blue and his skin was white as paper. Of course I took him to the hospital, and he received medical care, but things were very close for him. He was in the NICU for three days. I prayed to my Goddess Frigga, the Goddess of Children, Family, Hearth and Home to protect him and ensure his speedy recovery. Soon after I made that call his fever broke and he began to sustain his own oxygen without a ventillator. The doctors were amazed at how quickly he came around.

    Unfortunately not everything can be proven with empirical evidence. Even in science we have many theories that can only be “proven” with a mathematical equation. . .unable to document observable data. I am not using this argument to dismiss science or encourage unchecked spiritualism and fantastical thinking however – just pointing out the balance I believe is necessary to a whole and fulfilling life (notice I said “I believe”, I am ok with those who disagree with me on the subject ;-)).

    Regarding Woden’s wooing of me, I had some strange occurences that could easily be explained away as coincidence if not for the gut-feelings associated with those happenstances. For instance, I never saw many crows around until Woden had taken an interest. One of his animals is the raven / crow. Suddenly I always saw two. Not three, not four, not one, but two crows (Woden is said to have two crows or ravens named Huggin and Munnin that wander the world observing the actions of men). Everywhere I would go, there they would be. I seemed to “run into” old hobos wearing blue and sporting long white beards, sometimes they would have a random bit of wit to share, sometimes they asked for change, but anywhere I went it seemed these archetypal old men were there also.

    I think that science is rediscovering many things the ancient wisefolk took for granted. In the field of quantum physics, science is questioning our narrow, Newtonian perception of the universe, updating it to a “multi-verse” model. We are beginning to understand how intimately linked perception and reality truly are, and some quantum physicists are even positing that one can “manifest” their desires by focusing their willpower on the object of desire. This amuses me as it is literally what “sorcery” and “magic” are all about. . .causing change by force of will and intent.

    All in all, I respect atheists, secularists and agnostics. I agree with many of your conclusions. I see no reason why this atheism should be so aggressive towards *all* forms of faith. I understand being vehement against the Abrahamic faiths, as they have a long track record for being aggressive and oppressive against all science and seeking truth. However the Pagan and Polytheistic faiths differ vastly from these in that many of us are scientists, medical professionals and the like who do not dismiss the reality of empirical science, we just believe that there is more to know, more to understand than what we can feel, touch, taste and smell.

    Blessings,
    Bjorn

  • MaryLynne

    Hi, Tim,

    “How many times has science corrected itself and scientist’s had to deal with the fact that everything they knew was wrong, until it corrects itself again? Science says so. So it must be!”

    See, that’s one of our major points – science corrects itself. Being human, individual scientists might hang onto a cherished belief for a little while, but the whole point is to find out what is real based on the evidence. We no longer use leeches to cure disease, etc. Physicists LOVED superstring theory, for example, and the books being written in the late 80′s you would think were the bible. However, it could not be proved. It has not been disproven as far as I know, but it has not been proven after years of experiments, so physicists are rethinking and looking for other theories that can be proven to explain reality.

    Religion does not correct itself. No one has said, “After years of study and experiment, it turns out that homosexuality is not a grevious sin, but a biological matter.” Individuals might decide they don’t like a particular part and don’t believe it, but the field of religion, it were, does not correct itself.

    A scientist who still believes leeches cure disease is a crackpot. A religious person who still believes that gays are an abomination against God is OK.

    “There is nothing horrible about Christian teachings.”

    Tim, if yours is truly only a personal faith that inspires you, great. You go, guy. But you know perfectly well that Christianity and the beliefs it requires has been used to justify some really awful things. Crusades, witch burnings and killings of “heathens” throughout history, persecution of Jews and other non-Christians, all the way to shaping current social and political policies like abortion, science education, gay marriage and adoption, and our policies toward Israel. THAT is why we are concerned about this at all. If it was just you and your god, why would anyone else care? but decisions based on a false belief system are impacting MY life – that’s why we are here talking about it.

  • Francesc

    I love specially this reasoning. If you believe you will see. Shouldn’t it be the other way? First the proof and then the conclusion?

    I believe all the cars are red.
    Hey one red car, a point for me!
    Hey one blue car; the car is really red but it seems to my simple mind that it is blue. A point for me too!

  • nakedwoadwarrior

    Of course faith is irrational. . .but much in our existence is “irrational”, especially in our human element. To suppose that the world is a rational clockwork place is to remove all imagination and beauty from it. Mystery has fascinated humans since we began to think, and ever since everything from “what God makes the sky shake in anger [thunder]” to “Murder on the Orient Express” has kept our attention.

    I am all for science and secular society (ie basing our societal rules and laws upon an unbiased humanist standard rather than religious doctrine). I disagree with aggressive secularism or “fundamentalist-style” humanism that seeks to mock and destroy all religious faith, just as I am against certain sciences (neuro-science) seeking to break down the human consciousness into zeros and ones. Already neuro-science would label me as scizotypal because I believe in spirits, ghosts, Gods and magic (supernatural, not sleight of hand). Since when did a common human urge (to believe in the unseen world) become a mental disorder bordering on scizophrenia?

    I do agree, people should not try to impose their own personal beliefs upon the unwilling. I would never walk up to a stranger and say, as the Christians do, “Woden loves you and wishes you would return to his religion”. To each their own, I respect humanists, atheists, agnostics, Satanists (especially Satanists, I love you people!), Hindus, etc.. The only time I will conflict with one of these lifestyles is if their dogmas state that it is somehow ok to harm other humans or to destroy our Mother Earth (which is why I often clash with many Christians).

  • nakedwoadwarrior

    Whoops. . .major misspelling above. . .meant *schizophrenia/schizotypal lol :-P

  • Loops

    duude, sweet hieroglyph reference.

  • onecae

    “A scientist who still believes leeches cure disease is a crackpot. ”
    “Maggots and leeches are so effective that the FDA last year classified them as the first live medical devices. The treatments can be relatively inexpensive, according to the National Institutes of Health. A container of 500-1,000 disinfected maggots last year cost $70.”
    http://www.livescience.com/health/050419_maggots.html

  • Alan Terlep

    The “Crusades” argument is 100 years out of date. In the 20th century, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot have proven that atheists can be just as vicious and evil as Christians.

  • rodneyAnonymous

    Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were not vicious because they were atheists. As far as I know, their terrible actions were not based on atheism. They did sometimes involve atheism. The Crusades were explicitly religion-driven military campaigns.

    Stamp collectors can be vicious, too. That is not a charge against philately’s affect on the soul, it is a charge against confusing correlation with causation.

  • trj

    Yes, everybody knows that Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot commited atrocities specifically because they were atheists. Seriously, gain some perspective.

    FWIW, I don’t think the crusades argument is a good one either.

  • rodneyAnonymous

    (Alan Terlep) Medieval knights were mass murderers long before the Pope had the bright idea to get them to murder Muslims instead of Christian peasants. In the 4th Crusade, when the Muslims turned out to be too hard to beat, the Crusaders went after other Christians instead. If anything, Stalin was more committed to spreading atheism than the Crusaders were committed to spreading Christianity.

    Spreading Christianity wasn’t the goal of the Crusades. The goal was to recapture Jerusalem and prevent the spread of Islam. Perhaps Stalin was more committed to spreading his idea than the Crusaders were, but “level of commitment to spreading an idea” is not a pertinent comparison. The Crusades were waged for religion. The Inquisition was prosecuted for religion. The Loyalist/Nationalist conflict is about religion. Most wars on earth have been about religion. There is a very important difference between these and the secular atrocities you named. Stalin is not an example of the equivalence of wars motivated by religion and wars influenced by atheism.

  • trj

    Seems we’re in agreement, rodney.

  • Michael R

    First off, everybody doesn’t know that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot committed atrocities specifically because, they were atheists. This assertion is patently incorrect.

    These men committed atrocities to secure and maintain power for themselves. Stalin promoted atheism in order to eliminate the church because it had power and influence. His motivations were greed and power, not atheism. Atheism was simply a vehicle for him to keep religion’s nose out of his business so he didn’t have to deal with their influence. Mao isn’t even a good example. Pol Pot’s motivation was a fear of revolt and overthrow, so he eliminated all the educated and powerful people. There was no atheistic motive whatsoever.

  • Jabster

    Do you not remember the penny black pogrom of 1894 in Scunthorpe?

  • Alan Terlep

    Well, I guess that settles it then. Thanks for clearing it up.

    You asserted a lot of facts without providing a shred of evidence or support. If you actually do some research into the history of these conflicts and governments, you’ll find it pretty hard to support those positions. But I don’t expect you to seek out information that would challenge your worldview.

  • Alan Terlep

    If a conflict is caused by religion, then removing the religion would take away the cause and end the conflict. So, do a thought experiment: if the people on both sides of a conflict suddenly became atheists, would the conflict stop? You could make a reasonable argument that the Crusades couldn’t have happened if people hadn’t been motivated by the church, but the Loyalist/Nationalist conflict (as the name implies) is more about Scots invading Ireland than religious differences.

  • rodneyAnonymous

    Um, okay. I don’t think I asserted anything that isn’t a matter of public record.

    There is a difference between “war motivated by X” and “war influenced by Y”.

    The Crusades were motivated by religion. The Great Purge was influenced by atheism.

    It is misleading (at best) to draw a comparison between the two.

  • rodneyAnonymous

    Aha… “Most wars on earth have been about religion”… I guess that is maybe not an established fact. Feel free to ignore that sentence, if you don’t agree; it’s not related to my point.

  • rodneyAnonymous

    So, do a thought experiment: if the people on both sides of a conflict suddenly became atheists, would the conflict stop?

    In most cases, yes, I think it would, as long as by “people on both sides” you are including the relevant military and political leaders. What the soldiers believe is probably less important than what The Powers That Be believe.

    the Loyalist/Nationalist conflict (as the name implies) is more about Scots invading Ireland than religious differences

    I am not an expert on UK history or current events, but my understanding is that “Loyalist” and “Nationalist” are euphemisms for “Catholic” and “Protestant” (thus the former names imply nothing), and that the conflict is, in fact, about religious differences, and also the Partition of Ireland. I also could not find anything about the Scots being involved in any way.

    Other recent wars explicitly caused by religion: in Palestine (Jews v Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Kashmir (Muslims v Hindus), Sudan (Muslims v Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims v Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims v Timorese Christians), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v Catholic and Orthodox Armenians).

    This is the last decade or two alone.

    I am sure you’ve heard explanations of how one or more of these conflicts is not really based on religion. While you are thinking about it, please consider that a vast preponderance of the population of the earth has a vested interest in shifting the blame for war away from religion. I don’t even mean deliberately, although I find that plausible. You have such an interest, for example, and are unlikely to completely overcome confirmation bias.

    Please address my claim that “There is a difference between ‘war motivated by X’ and ‘war influenced by Y’. The Crusades were motivated by religion; The Great Purge was influenced by atheism. It is misleading (at best) to draw a comparison between the two.”

  • Alan Terlep

    Other recent wars explicitly caused by religion: in Palestine (Jews v Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Kashmir (Muslims v Hindus), Sudan (Muslims v Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims v Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims v Timorese Christians), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v Catholic and Orthodox Armenians).

    I would be interested in hearing some comments from other people about Rodney’s interpretation of history. Does this fit with your view of the world?

  • Siberia

    Er, yes, but s/he was refering to the practice of bloodletting. Maggots and leeches are used for an entirely different purpose these days.
    Nobody believes bleeding someone cures anything, these days.

  • Janet Greene

    I don’t believe that god is a myth because he didn’t strike me down. I don’t believe in god because there is no evidence for it.

  • http://www.chucklasker.com Chuck Lasker

    Have you ever noticed Christians will tell you AFTER the fact that they prayed for what happened? They never tell you in advance what they’re praying for. Instead, when something happens, they say, “I prayed that would happen.” And they never say, “Darn, I prayed XXXX would happen and it didn’t!” It’s like they’re lying, or holding back information that does not promote their cause. But that is a silly thing for me to say….

  • Michael R

    Get ‘em, Amandeep!

  • http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/ Monado

    In many cases, religious affiliation is merely a way for humans to define ingroups and outgroups, “us” vs. “them,” to allocate jobs, political power, and other preference to “our group.” The discrimination creates resentment and hatred, revenge, and rebellion if a group is kept from sharing political power. The violence and hatred escalate on both sides, with religion a convenient label and codifier of prejudice. We are quite capable of using other grounds for discrimination and oppression: civilized city vs. uncultured rural, skin colour, land ownership, language, “always been here” vs. immigrants. Genghis Khan, Vlad the Impaler, and Pol Pot didn’t need religion to commit atrocities. Khan wanted territory, Vlad wanted to impress his enemies, and Pol Pot wanted to destroy anyone who might organize to oppose his power grab. Religion just seems to exacerbate divisions and make them slower to heal. The biggest land grab and genocide in history, the invasion of North and South America by Europeans, was motivated by thirst for power, trade, land, and wealth. Religious conversion of the native inhabitants rode along on the coattails of a lust material advantage and provided a convenient excuse for further evils such as enslaving or exterminating the inhabitants.

  • http://www.chucklasker.com Chuck Lasker

    Don’t forget the “Iraq War” as a religious war:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184546/Donald-Rumsfelds-holy-war-How-President-Bushs-Iraq-briefings-came-quotes-Bible.html

    http://www.allgov.com/ViewNews/Bush_Invaded_Iraq_on_a_Mission_from_God_90809

    Those are facts – Bush interfered in the Middle East because of Christianity. Over 4,000 American boys and girls have given their lives for Bush’s desire to please his god.

    http://icasualties.org/Iraq/index.aspx

  • http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/ Monado

    …lust for material advantage…

  • Alan Terlep

    Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were all atheists who killed a lot of people on the *explicit* grounds that they (the victims) had wrong and evil beliefs that needed to be stamped out. Under their regimes, you could be killed for expressing beliefs that the government didn’t like.

    This shows ONLY that atheistic totalitarian regimes can be just as oppressive as theistic totalitarian regimes.

  • roz

    they use leeches to keep severe wounds cleaned so be careful with absolutes

  • Musa

    True that!

  • Musa

    “True that!”

    . . . in reference to the ma’at comment, I mean.

  • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

    @Jesse: 1 Kings, chapter 18, verses 21-40. Seems like the deity of Christianity and Judaism can, when asked, jump through a hoop or two.