“This is all the religion that I have; to make somebody else happier if I can.” —Robert Green Ingersoll
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I suppose that’s the point of my Christian faith also, except that I include God in that ‘somebody else’. Jesus said that the greatest commandments were to love God and love others. Unfortunately, many Christians don’t love others very well.
When I was a Christian, my religion wasn’t to make other people happier now — it was to convert them to Christianity so they could be happier in the next life.
No doubt many Christians have given Christ a bad rap by being mean and evil, doing the same things they accuse others of, only that at times they do it in His name. But that doesn’t make Him false/non-existent, it makes the ‘professors’ of the faith hypocrites. I can see how that turns people away from the fundamentals (there, I said it!) of Christianity-loving God with all your being, and loving your neighbor as yourself- the basics of what Robert Green Ingersoll subscribes to.
I’m Christian but I’ve found myself ‘falling for’ Christ-like (nice,kind) people even when they don’t rub their religious inclinations in my face. Even Jesus did not have the kindest words for the hypocritical teachers of the law in his time, I’m not sure He would in my time.
@PKW
“But that doesn’t make Him false/non-existent, it makes the ‘professors’ of the faith hypocrites. ”
But your belief in him doesn’t necessarily mean god exists either. All we have is evidence or lack therof in the case for a god. When one looks at the world without “god colored glasses”, they see we only have our fellow human beings to rely upon for survival, love, and friendship. We don’t need god, jesus, allah, yahweh, zeus, thor, odin, ra, or isis to give our lives meaning or to lift our spirits. All we really need is love and respect for one another as fellow members of the human race.
@Brent: How do you make God, a perfect being, happier?
Joel,
Besides nature pointing to the existence of God to me, my belief in Him does mean that He exists. I’ve called on Him and He has answered me (not instantly or physically as in “Dear God”, “Yes, PKW?” but in making things fall into place in ways that just amazed me).
I can never possibly buy the proposition that humanity is an end in itself, like you are alluding to when you say”….we only have our fellow human beings to rely upon for survival, love, and friendship”. If that were the case, as it is supposed to be in a perfect world, the most natural thing for human beings would be to do good unto others, to “make somebody else happier”. That is what God calls upon us to do, but the reality on the ground is quite the opposite.
There are forces of good (God or Ngai as we call Him) and evil (the Devil, or muimwo ni iri- he that is hated by the living) that help explain the struggle between good and bad. My belief, and evidence of the devil in virtually any place I’ve been to, comfirm that God exists.
@ PKW
Okay, I’ll deal with your assertions one by one.
“Besides nature pointing to the existence of God to me”
I don’t know what you are talking about here. I see nothing in nature that points to an intelligent, thoughtful, perfect creator. Take for example our imperfect bodies which were supposedly created in his image. Our eyes in fact are imperfectly designed as Frank Zindler explains:
“The retina has been put together backwards! Unlike the retinas of octopuses and squids, in which the light-gathering cells are aimed forward, toward the source of incoming light, the photoreceptor cells (the so called rods and cones) of the human retina are aimed backward, away from the light source. Worse yet, the nerve fibers which must carry signals from the retina to the brain must pass in front of the receptor cells, partially impeding the penetration of light to the receptors. Only a blasphemer would attribute such a situation to divine design!”
Examples abound of imperfections in nature (many of which cause a great deal of pain and suffering), and I will not belabor you with countless examples. Needless to say, if a perfect god’s hand were present in nature, why would he create such imperfect creatures and allow for so much suffering because of his own faultly cratsmanship.
“my belief in Him does mean that He exists. ”
Um right! I am the only one who finds this statement absurd? According to this logic, if I want something to exist it will exist. Well then, I’M RICH!!!!! Damn, it was worth a try.
“I’ve called on Him and He has answered me (not instantly or physically as in “Dear God”, “Yes, PKW?” but in making things fall into place in ways that just amazed me). ”
This is not evidence. It it’s circumstantial and completely unprovable. Stuff falls into place sometimes for me too, but that doesn’t mean god did it. And what about people for whom things don’t fall into place. If you attribute good coincidences to god, then you must attribute bad ones to him as well.
“I can never possibly buy the proposition that humanity is an end in itself, like you are alluding to when you say”….we only have our fellow human beings to rely upon for survival, love, and friendship”. If that were the case, as it is supposed to be in a perfect world, the most natural thing for human beings would be to do good unto others, to “make somebody else happier”. That is what God calls upon us to do, but the reality on the ground is quite the opposite. ”
I’m not implying that the world is perfect. It’s far from it. What I’m saying is that we are very alone in a cool, indifferent, violent cosmos. Our best chance for survival is to work together to improve the lives of all humanity. In regards to the “reality on the ground”, fortunately for all of us this isn’t a clear cut black and white issue. Humanity isn’t all good, nor are we completely evil either. We all fall on a spectrum between the two extremes. It is imperative that we tap into the better aspects of our nature (altruism, empathy, and love), if we are to progress as a species. Other traits such as xenophobia and the need for religion may have proven useful for survival in our distant past, but they are no longer needed and should be discarded.
“There are forces of good (God or Ngai as we call Him) and evil (the Devil, or muimwo ni iri- he that is hated by the living) that help explain the struggle between good and bad. ”
Actually I kind of agree with you here. We each have desireable an undesireable traits deeply rooted within us, however, they can be explained through evolutionary psychology. God(s) and/or the devil play no role in our nature. We are products of natural selection in mind and body.
“My belief, and evidence of the devil in virtually any place I’ve been to, comfirm that God exists.”
Show me your evidence; a picture, a foot print, anything. People commiting atrocities is not evidence of a devil. It’s evidence that people commit atrocities.
Whew! That being said, all we have is each other. If we are to progress as a species. We must throw off the superstitions and bigotries of our past and work together to improve the quality of this life for us and future generations.
@ Joel
“The retina has been put together backwards! Unlike the retinas of octopuses and squids, in which the light-gathering cells are aimed forward, toward the source of incoming light, the photoreceptor cells (the so called rods and cones) of the human retina are aimed backward, away from the light source. Worse yet, the nerve fibers which must carry signals from the retina to the brain must pass in front of the receptor cells, partially impeding the penetration of light to the receptors. Only a blasphemer would attribute such a situation to divine design!”
k, here’s a cool thing that you may not have known about octopuses. They live under water. Did you know that water absorbs UV radiation? It’s true! The reason an octopus or squid’s eye is able to collect and process light more accurately, with less interference, is because that eye is in little to no danger of getting retinal cancer from prolonged exposure to UV rays.
Oddly enough, the human eye spends most of it’s time above water, unprotected from direct sunlight. In an almost miraculous fashion the human eye seems to have it’s rods and cones pointed away from the same light source that the octopus’s eye can handle quite easily thanks to environmental shielding.
On another tack, I would love to know why your “best chance for survival” can’t include religion. You say “It is imperative that we tap into the better aspects of our nature (altruism, empathy, and love), if we are to progress as a species.”
Fair enough. I’m all for altruism and empathy, not to mention love. But my question is this: is it not possible that people who strongly hold religious beliefs might be just as in tune with these better aspects of their natures as you are? Or the human population at large, for that matter.
If the most important thing people can do, in your opinion, is to channel these better aspects of human nature, is it really so bad that some of them choose to channel it through a religious belief?
@ jonboy
Fish eyes possess the same inverted rod and cone structure that human eyes do. Do they need protection from UV rays as well? You’d think an omniscient creator would create one perfect eye that would be suitable for all creatures. I mean, if he’s so freaking smart then he could easily figure out how to have made our eyes more functional and not have such an ass-backwards design.
As far as the second half of your response goes. Religion, by it’s very nature is divisive. It’s us vs. them, believers vs. non-believers, Muslims vs. everybody else. I always find it humorous, when holy men of different religions come together for inter-faith conferences or whatever the hell they do. I always imagine what’s really going on in heads of these men (and they are all invariably men). For example, “Yes, I agree with Rabbi X that we need to do something about the ethnic cleansing in Darfur, but I still think he’s going to burn in hell.” This kind of religious exclusivism may be kept on the DL at these kind of meetings, but it’s there, simmering under the surface. I just don’t understand how you can honestly work together with somebody to do something positive, all the while knowing that they’ll be a crispy critter when all is said and done. Good thing it’s all a load of crap anyway.
This divisiveness is far reaching, just look at the plight of homosexuals. In a large number of countries, homosexuals are executed by religious zealots. Even in countries like the U.S., same-sex marriages are only possible in a few select states. Now I’m sure you’re thinking all religious folks don’t want to kill homosexuals, and you would be right. But most still don’t want to let them get married here in the U.S.. Also, this passive bigotry by a majority of americans allows more leeway for assholes like Fred Phelps and other people who think homosexuals should be exterimated.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that dogmatic religions divide groups of people and foment bitterness, anger, and wrath towards those who do not subscribe to the established religion. As long as religion is a powerful force in society, this will continue. I pray to no god, no book holds absolute truth, nothing is sacred. I have no reason to hate anybody, or deny them civil rights (whether they be gay straight, bisexual, male, female, christian, jewish, muslim, atheist, etc. ) All we have is each other and our tiny little blue world. Screw god, let’s work on taking care of each other.
@ Joel:
That’s a very nice sounding way to live your life. You get to be nice to everyone! How awesome for you!
So, pedophilia… that’s okay? Totally cool with you! No moral imperative against it!
Female genital mutilation? Sounds good! All cultures and practices are equally okay!
Everyone can just chill! Do what they want, as long as they aren’t really “hurting” anyone, or stepping on any important toes…
Anyway, I’m going to mostly disregard the morally positive effect of religion on the world and its practices in favor of disputing this little gem with you.
“I guess what I’m trying to say is that dogmatic religions divide groups of people and foment bitterness, anger, and wrath towards those who do not subscribe to the established religion. As long as religion is a powerful force in society, this will continue.”
I dispute that. Show me some evidence that the source of human dividedness is religion. I’d love to hear it. Non-religious dogmatism, I would argue, can be just as divisive as religious dogmatism. The real problem could just as easily be human nature, couldn’t it? Otherwise, a-religious people would necessarily be the most morally ‘good’ people in the world.
*sigh*
I adovacate a tolerant humanist worldview where everyone respects each other’s basic human rights and you jump to the conclusion that I endorse female circumcision and child molesting.
And speaking of gems………….
“Everyone can just chill! Do what they want, as long as they aren’t really “hurting” anyone, or stepping on any important toes…”
Um, last time I checked these two practices did hurt people. FGM an CM are despicable and I in no way endorse them. The fact that I even have to say this evidence dvisiveness and misunderstanding I’ve been talking about. You know I’m not Chirstian, worse yet I’m a dreaded atheist. Somewhere along the line you got the impression that atheists are a bunch of amoral nihlistic assholes who want to have sex with your children, you dog, and your wife. The vast majority of athiests are productive members of society who value human life and basic human rights.
However, I do agree with you about religion having a positive effect on “morality”. I mean where would civilization be without the Catholic Inquisition, witch burning, female circumsicision (ironic, no?), abortion clinic bombings, 9-11, gay bashing, suicide bombers, ethnic cleansing, and honor killings? Thank god!
Name me one person who has killed in the name of atheism.
P.S. Stalin doesn’t count. He was an atheist, but he did not kill people because of his atheism. He killed people because he wanted to exert control and power over the rest of them (kind of like religion, wink).
Sigh…
Ahem. I did not ask for evidence that religious people can be abhorrently evil, nor did I ask whether people kill in the name of God. What I asked was evidence that religion is somehow the root of humanity’s evils. What you have in fact done, is indicate that religious people are just as bad as non-religious people. Which is actually what I said: “Non-religious dogmatism, I would argue, can be just as divisive as religious dogmatism.”
I know religious people are too often just as horrifying as anyone you can think of. I got that. It seems to be a keynote of these sorts of discussions. What I would actually like to hear is evidence that religion is the source of all of humanity’s ills. If there isn’t any, then it doesn’t make sense to go around insinuating that religion is the root of all evil.
On an (important) side-note, I would really like to know where the idea comes from to “value human life and basic human rights.” Secular humanistic values, as I said, seem nice. But could you explain to me where they come from? This is a legitimate question, I swear. Not really trying to be snarky. (It’s just easy on the internet.) Where do human rights spring from, if not from the idea that human life is sacred or divine?
Oh, and I forgot. I should reassure you that I in no way view you as a malevolent force bent on the destruction of society, my family, or anything else, for that matter. In fact, I don’t have anything at stake in assuming you are an amoral person at all. Promise! ;)