Religious groups, stop forcing your morality on others. You are free to worship your gods — you should let people be free to love and marry whom they choose.
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[...] I think this says it pretty well Religious groups, stop forcing your morality on others. You are free to worship your gods — you should let people be [...] [...]
Don’t confuse them with reason now :p
Absolutely awesome. Great capture. Thanks for sharing! Also: You’ve been StumbledUpon!
Indeed…. stop forcing your morality on others. If I wanted to be a Mormon, or Catholic, or Protestant, or Muslim, or whatever I would do that. Live and let live.
Daniel
Yea, that make sense. Christians can’t force our morality on people but others can force their morality on us by telling us how to vote. I love the logic.
Oh, and 53% of California who voted on 8 aren’t ALL Christians, not even close, but I guess you’ve found your scapegoat.
Eric
Daniel, Really now, who tells you how to vote? You go in that booth alone. If you don’t vote as you wish it’s nobody else’s fault but yours. And no, not all who voted for Prop 8 were Christian; but most were, and without the organized Christian support for it, it wouldn’t have gotten a majority. It isn’t scapegoating to speak the truth.
I can’t help wondering how many Californians didn’t bother voting because they thought the idea of Prop 8 passing in their state was so absurd that they didn’t need to bother.
I do believe that this has less to do with religious individuals using religious reasons and more to do with most people being convinced that X is wrong (because it’s ‘wrong’ or ‘unnatural’ or whatever) and then finding verses that support their hatred.
There is no where in Daniel’s post that says
‘christians’. Eric, there are actually are other religions.
…Christians are forcing their morality on others. That’s the whole issue.
What other groups oppose legislation to allow a minority group to marry (how does it affect anyone but the members of that group? Explain that to me)?
Why do Christians believe everyone should follow the definitions they made up for marriage? Why is it such an enormous issue that you have to strip the rights from a group of people for it?
Joseph Smith had one wife. An angry mob like you killed him too young.
(a) Joseph Smith was Mormon and not Christian – he created his own religion, rememeber? (b) No one is saying you aren’t free to love whoever you want – it’s just that you can’t MARRY them which is a perversion of the definition. That’s like trying to argue that if I want to call a circle a square and make that a universal for everyone and then claim you’re prejudice simply because you want to continue calling a circle a circle. Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. If you want an “alternate relationship” then go for it – but it’s not a marriage. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with societal norms. You’re breaking the norm and can’t accept that it won’t be accepted as the norm. Consequently, I ask you to take your own advice and stop trying to force me to accept your perversions as normal. I’m comfortable letting you live your life. But don’t ask me to support it nor to corrupt the English language just because you can’t live with the term “marriage.”
You are witnessing God-fearing people trying to hold on to their traditional values, verses Godless people who want the right to do what they want, whenever they want. Mormons are just being used as scapegoats when the real issue is that Godless people don’t think they should live according to the beliefs of the majority of people’s wishes.
PS – The GLT community IS NOT A MINORITY! Why do we keep defending them as a minority for a lifestyle choice they make? To classify them as a minority means we should classify Christians, Libertarians, Muslims, Jews, Political Radicals, and now Republicans as minorities. Again, corrupting the accepted definitions of terminology in order to secure favored status…(why is it a hate crime if you hit someone who happens to be gay but not if the gay person happens to hit a straight person? So much for the Equal Protection laws – definitely a move to “equality for all”)…
I agree! Hatred is so rampant, and other people’s moral virtues getting pushed into legislation is ridiculous! I mean, if I want to go take something from the grocery store and not pay, I should have the right. Why have we legislated so much hate against criminals? A prime example is my teenage son who asked if he could visit a gentleman’s club. I said, “Sure, I don’t want to force my morals on you.” And that’s the way it should be–I have my ideas of right and wrong, but that’s all relative, and everyone has to decide that for themselves without other people pushing their ideas.
Our society would be a lot better off if everyone could just do anything they wanted, regardless of thousands of years of experience and the wisdom of the ages. Let’s be a little more open-minded than our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, etc.
Usually, definitions don’t confer legal / taxation benefits.
I somehow doubt society is going to crumble if, all of a sudden, people who love each other can get married. I honestly thought that marriage was about love, not sex.
(Then again, with the religious marriage IS about sex – seeing as how most religions say you need to marry first).
Yup Abe, you’re right Total anarchy is the answer!
Tim: Joseph Smith did indeed only have one wife and was indeed killed young by a mob. But he was a christian. There are lot of christian religions in the world. What makes them christian? They believe in Christ. Thats the basic definiton.
Also, a lot of people doesn’t seem to understand that this is not just a cultural thing, but also a legal issue. They have the right to get married because of the law.
And if gay people get married that doesnt deny straight people from getting married and it doesnt force any churches to marry them.
To use a recent issue, like proposition 8, calefornian constitution says that you can marry whoever you choose to marry. Doesn’t say anything about opposite sex.
And yes they are a minority. There are lot of minorities, not just racial ones.
Abe: You’re comparing something that hurts other people to something that doesn’t hurt other people. Noone is harmed by letting two gay people marry.
Oh well, I don’t know why I bother. The US is so conservative and think they are the greatest. While Europe which is far, far more liberal has more happy people, better standards of living, better economies, less poor people, more jobs, better pay, free healthcare, better freedom of the press, etc, etc.
Did I miss the part where polygamy was legal these days?
What’s the difference between polygamy and gay marriage? Not much, in my opinion — they both are a perverted twist on the original institution of marriage, if one is illegal (polygamy is ILLEGAL) the other should be too.
re:JC
With full respect, what news do you watch? Europe is in terrible shape, their economy makes ours look like Disneyland and to say that they are better off than we are is truly laughable.
The Church of Latter Day Saints spent millions of dollars in support of prop 8. This should actually cause them to lose their tax-exempt status. A religious organization in this country cannot get involved in politics and keep it’s tax-exempt status.
As for how I feel about Prop 8, it’s crap. Who is hurt by gays and lesbians marrying the person they love? No one is hurt, there are just some people who thinks it’s “yucky”. Homosexuality is a natural thing, it has been observed in hundreds of other species of animals including, our closest animal relatives, bonobos. There are even gay penguins for christ’s sake. The other penguins don’t get freaked out by them because they both have penises, in fact, gay penguin couples have been known to take care of orphaned or abandoned baby penguins as if they were their own. How the hell are penguins more open-minded and accepting than humans? Most intelligent species my ass.
Tim you have a very flawed view of gays and the gay rights issue.
First of all, your argument that gays choose their lifestyle so they don’t deserve rights is simply unamerican. To use your example of other groups who choose what they are, what if it wasn’t a marriage if two christians wanted to marry one another? What if you had to marry a muslim if you wanted it to be recognized by the government? Or libertarians can’t vote unless they vote republican? The argument that it is a choice doesn’t change the fact that people get dignity and rights in this country.
Secondly, gays who want marriage aren’t asking for acceptance or normalcy. They want something that everyone else gets. It’s not an issue of making everyone think being gay is normal, it’s an issue of being treated with human dignity afforded to everyone.
Attention dumbfuck christians: homosexuals have been getting married since before your religion was founded. The first recorded usages of the word “marriage” to describe the union of two men occurred in the Roman Empire.
“Our society would be a lot better off if everyone could just do anything they wanted, regardless of thousands of years of experience and the wisdom of the ages.”
No, Abe, that’s thinking about it wrong. I firmly believe that we in the 21st century should do everything exactly like a tribe of backwards bronze age goat-herds did them.
How’s that for satire?
I am confused by those of you who opt to defend the passing of Prop 8 on the grounds that marriage is and always has been strictly between a man and a woman. Instead of pushing for the progress of true equality you instead choose to defend archaic practices on the foundation of tradition.
You know what also used to be a tradition here in the United States of America? Slavery. I imagine that most of us could agree that getting rid of that, in light of the fact that we as a country had always done things with slavery, was the moral and right thing to do. However, at the time slavery was defended and upheld using scripture. One must only look at the epistles of Paul of Tarsus to view how easily Christians have used their “holy scripture” to oppress various groups for their own convenience and selfishness over the centuries.
Christians: Slaughtering innocents and oppressing the unfortunate in the name of God since the 4th century.
Marriage as we know it was created by Christianity, adopting traditions from everywhere and turning it into one action. It is up to the denominations to say whether or not they will marry same sex couples. It is not the State’s, as in Federal Government, job to make moral law. That is directly the realm of the Church. The only action that the State has a hand in is same sex unions.
So is everyone saying religion determined the vote or did individuals vote what they felt
“It is not the State’s, as in Federal Government, job to make moral law. ”
That’s exactly right, Loki. And you know what? That is the reason why Proposition 8 shouldn’t have passed, nor should any law claiming what marriage is or isn’t pass. So thank you for agreeing with us.
Slim, of course religion determined the vote. There is not one good reason to be against homosexual marriage that isn’t rooted in religious belief.
And, for the record, reasons rooted in religious belief don’t count as good reasons either.
The people freaking voted let it be
Marriage is a legality that should have absolutely nothing to do with religion. Members of the gay and lesbian community just want the same legal rights for their partnership that are granted to heterosexual couples. The right to marry has been granted here and it hasn’t stirred up the social fabric or really made too much of a damn difference. In fact, our economy is doing comparably well, helped along by GLBT tourism. People are people, regardless of sexual preference, gender, age and race. As long as no one is being hurt by laws being passed, why not grant the right for all consenting adults (who love each other) to marry?
@Abe and Richbo
It’s funny how your morality is “doing what’s right,” while my morality is “doing whatever I want.” Never mind that I constantly think about the consequences of my actions, and actively try to make my moral principles coherent with each other. Or that non-christians all over the world have produced stable and thriving societies where people can be happy and live good productive lives.
There is a vast chasm between holding non-Christian values and being a sociopath.
And there is also a vast difference between trying to persuade others, versus giving them no choice but to do what you want. Do you want your son to be blindly obedient, or to have his own reasons for doing what’s right?
And yeah, majority rule, there’s a solution. Because the majority has *always* done the best thing for everyone.
@Tim
Do you have any idea what the word minority means? it means less than half. It does not mean race or ethnicity, that’s why those words are there, to express a different idea.
A minority is any political or social group that does not encompass the majority of the population. Black people are not a minority because they are black, they are a minority because there are more white people in the united states. Gays and lesbians are a minority because they are a social group with political objectives who is made up of much less than half the population.
learn2english, dumbass.
Honestly, what disturbs me most about Prop 8 passing is that it sets a horrible precedent where people can vote to ACTIVELY DENY a specific group of people their rights. What if someone were to start an initiative to state that all people with red hair (apparently same statistical probability as homsexuality) were no longer allowed to, say, drive a car. Not the most parallel example I admit but the fact that Prop 8 passed shows that people are willing to refuse people a civil freedom. They’re not not making it legal, but actively saying NO. And that is what scares the living s*** out of me. In California as well…
How about in the next election we enter a proposition requesting the removal of the “in sickness and in health for as long as you both shall live” part of the vows. Because with that line, divorce is a “perversion” of the marriage vows, or just make divorce illegal. I mean whats the point of marriage if we can just do whatever we want and break our legal and religious agreement…..The only part of the other sides argument that I agree with is that the word “marriage” is really just a formality. If G&L couples get all the same legal and economical rights, then screw the formalities.
The only real solution, that I’d like to see used, is to completely seperate the religious and legal ceremonies that marriage is. The same legal contract can be signed by both gays and straights, while MARRIAGE has no legal value whatsoever – it’s just a religious ceremony.
This way the churches would get to keep their right to deny anyone marriage, while homosexual couples would get the same legal benefits.
& this is why
“peace on earth”
is a laughable line
See, I’ve never even thought of myself as a part of some inferior group. I just know that I am in a serious relationship with a woman, and we plan on getting married in our future. We want representation of our commitment to each other. No, we aren’t going to adopt a kid that we have to worry about rights over, no, one of us isn’t terminally ill and have to worry about hospital rights or the death issue. We just want to be married, because that’s what other people do to represent their love, so why can’t we? Why can’t I be Mrs. (girlfriend’s name)?
I’m not an activist at all, mainly because I can’t find the time or the will power. I don’t wear gay pride bracelets and attend rallies. This isn’t because I’m ashamed, but more of the fact that I don’t let my homosexuality represent my character. I am much more than that, I believe.
I know many, many people like me. I just want to be able to get married to the love of my life, not flaunt it about on the streets and force everyone to accept me.
Excellent picture! (I apologize in advance for this mega-post… I know it’s rude! I’m really, really sorry! Please skip it if necessary!)
Some of the comments on this thread are fucked up and way off the mark. I love how the nutjobs think they’re making sense when all they’re doing is flaunting their disgusting bigotry.
Eric Kemp:
Nobody said anything about Christians. We’re talking about Mormons. You know, the group that put hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars into the “yes†initiative? Money that could have gone to feed the homeless, or help clean up a contaminated shoreline, but instead was used to spread outright LIES in order to perpetuate homophobia. Sounds like an EXCELLENT scapegoat to me! (Don’t see what this has to do with voting… People can tell you how to vote all they want, but at least nobody’s trying to take your vote away from you. If they did, I bet you’d feel pretty bad.)
Dude:
Joseph Smith indeed was only LEGALLY married to one person during his lifetime, because what law at the time would allow more than one wife? (Isn’t it funny that you don’t see gays pumping tons of money into an anti-polygamy initiative?) However he was “sealed†with dozens of other women during his lifetime, and also convinced his successor, Brigham Young, to take up polygamy. Mr Young eventually married a total of 55 WIVES. Lucky him!
As for the mob, do the people in that picture LOOK like an angry mob to you? That chick doesn’t even have a frown on her face!! Considering her right to marry has just been unfairly and unconstitutionally stripped from her, I’d say she’s taking it pretty damn well. (It’s BULLSHIT to compare a group of justifiably upset people to an angry, murderous mob. You’re full of SHIT!)
Tim:
Your post is the most fucked up of all, so far. I haven’t read them all yet… Yours was the one that inspired me to stop and write this rant.
“No one is saying you aren’t free to love whoever you want – it’s just that you can’t MARRY them which is a perversion of the definition.†Wow, how reassuring. Thank you for that.
“Marriage has always been between a man and a woman.†In the backward, religion-blinded good ole US of A, maybe, but the rest of the modern world has decided that religion is to be kept out of legal matters (like your constitution says you should), and has moved on. Gay marriage or gay civil union is now legal in 22 countries, and I’m willing to bet that 25 years from now, that number will only have increased. I can’t imagine any country granting rights and then cruelly stripping them away… Except the USA, of course.
“It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with societal norms.†Wrong. I think anybody with half a brain can figure that one out. Religion being the reason for homophobia is as clear as the sky is blue. If you still don’t get it, consult the previous paragraph.
“You’re breaking the norm and can’t accept that it won’t be accepted as the norm.†The norm, sir, is not standard. It changes EACH generation. If there were only ever one “normâ€, we’d still be stoning our kids to death for misbehaving. It’s perfectly expected that they “can’t accept†that it won’t be accepted as the norm, because your claim that “it won’t be accepted as the norm†is FALLACIOUS. First of all, you can’t tell the future. Second, gay marriage IS already the norm in many countries. Get with the times, America! (No offense to individual Americans… You’re fine people, but your government sucks.)
“stop trying to force me to accept your perversions as normal.†You don’t have to. In fact, you can consider them “perversions†all you like. We think you’re perverted too. But your LAW says, equal rights for all.
“But don’t ask me to support it nor to corrupt the English language just because you can’t live with the term “marriage.â€â€ You are nothing but a fucking douchebag, you know that? Do you have NO sense of the history of language? The definitions of words CHANGE. And they can change FAST. No, that doesn’t mean the word is “corruptedâ€, that just means that time is still moving forward, like it should, and that we’re not all stuck in the fucking dark ages. We’ve all heard it many times in the last few months… No more than 100 years ago, interracial marriage was not permitted, and slaves were not allowed to marry AT ALL. So if you’re so hell-bent on not “corrupting the English languageâ€, then you had better go back to describing marriage as a union between a FREE man and a FREE woman OF THE SAME COLOUR. Imagine the looks you’ll get! (And if you’re not willing to use that old, “uncorrupted†definition, then you’re nothing but a hypocritical homophobe, trying to hide your hatred and fear behind the excuse of semantics. FUCK YOU!)
Richbo:
There are plenty of gay AND religious people out there. Not all gay people are godless. LOL! That’s just plain funny. However, I should point out that these people are not looking for the right to do “whatever they want, whenever they wantâ€. That’s bullshit, and you know it. No, they’re not asking for complete anarchy (seriously, get a grip on reality), instead they would just like the same rights that everybody else has – to marry who they love. Sounds dangerous, doesn’t it? LOL!
I’ve seen this kind of argument a thousand times – bigoted freaks blowing the entire thing out of proportion, saying that “these people want to commit ALL KINDS of crimes, and corrupt our children, and bite the heads off our puppies while we sleep, and if they get away with this then we’re all going to heeeeeellll!!!†when you know FULL FUCKING WELL that that is NOT what this is about, you’re just trying to scare all the other imaginary-man-fearing psychopaths into agreeing with you. Well I’ve got news for you, just because you can get a majority of deluded nutjobs to agree with you does NOT make something right, or true. That is an appeal to belief, and it is a logical fallacy. For example: “Most of my coworkers believe UFOs exist. Therefore, they do exist.â€
“the real issue is that Godless people don’t think they should live according to the beliefs of the majority of people’s wishes.†That IS a real issue. Do YOU think that everybody should live according to the majority’s whims? I thought that was the WHOLE POINT of the constitution: To protect the minorities from the ruling, power-hungry, selfish majority.
Tim (again):
Since when is 1.5% of the population not considered a minority??? (The Social Organization of Sex: Sexual Practices in the United States (1994))
Christians: 76% – NOT a minority.
Libertarians: (party members): 0.07% – definitely a minority
Muslims: 0.5% – YES
Jews: 1.3% – YES
Political Radicals – I have no idea how you’d count that, let alone define it.
Republicans: 33% – large minority.
If you don’t consider 1.5% a minority, you’re seriously fucked. Seriously. (And Fousheezy is right, you haven’t given a single example of groups who DON’T CHOOSE to be what they are.) And it’s not a hate crime if you hit someone who is gay, it’s a hate crime if you hit somebody BECAUSE they’re gay. Just as it would be a hate crime if I were to hit you because you’re religious or straight, or whatever. I can’t believe something so simple has to be explained to somebody who acts like he knows it all.
Abe:
“Our society would be a lot better off if everyone could just do anything they wanted, regardless of thousands of years of experience and the wisdom of the ages.â€
Are you seriously trying to claim that the progress we’ve made so far is a BAD thing? Are you seriously suggesting that we hold on to antiquated dark age superstitions? “Wisdom of the agesâ€, are you KIDDING? Shall we go back to burning witches and stoning adulterers, thinking the Earth is flat or that the sun is a god, throwing virgins into volcanoes, or condemning scientists and performing voodoo when people get sick? I’ll wager that, given the choice, EVERYBODY here would prefer to live in the present day than 1000 years ago. (And there’s that “do anything they want†argument again… Give me a break.)
Geoff:
Who says polygamy should be illegal? Oh yes that’s right, THE CHURCH, again, forcing everybody to live according to their standards. Sounds like the dark ages to me! (That’s the third time I’ve mentioned the dark ages…. Noticing a pattern here? Does that not bother anyone?) Polygamy may be considered “pervertedâ€, it may not be ideal for everybody, but as long as it’s between fully consenting adults, who the fuck are you to deny them?? (I don’t speak for anybody but myself on this issue, or any issue for that matter.. Not everybody who agrees with gay marriage agrees with polygamy, and vice versa.)
Richbo (again):
Are you on crack? The European economy is in WAY better shape than the US. This is their first recession in 15 YEARS. In fact, their economy is in such excellent shape in comparison to the US that we (Canadians, whose economy is in relatively good shape as well) are forging a massive agreement to integrate our economy with the EU. JC is damn right: “The US is so conservative and think they are the greatest. While Europe†(and Canada, I might add) “which is far, far more liberal has more happy people, better standards of living, better economies, less poor people, more jobs, better pay, free healthcare, better freedom of the press, etc, etc.†And may I add as well, cleaner environments and freedom from religion. Everybody I know (all of whom are Canadian) thank their lucky stars every day that we weren’t born American. (If I get sick, I know I’m taken care of. Phew!)
Not that this has ANYTHING to do with the issue at hand. I just wish you’d get your facts straight.
Loki:
Marriage indeed started as a religious thing. If it were still a religious thing, I would say, feel free to only grant marriages within your own churches. But in that case, legal benefits would not apply to the couples. In fact, the marriage wouldn’t even be recognized by the state. Unless it were a religious government of course, which the US is NOT, as per your constitution. So, today, marriage is a legal and only a legal issue. Heterosexual atheists can get married in the US, but homosexual Christians cannot. So don’t give me religious excuses, because marriage is no longer a religious institution. And that is EXACTLY why, BY LAW, gay marriage WOULD be legal (if it weren’t for the religious fundies running the show and cramming their crap down everybody’s throats.)
Now onto something a little more positive…
“Attention dumbfuck christians: homosexuals have been getting married since before your religion was founded. The first recorded usages of the word “marriage†to describe the union of two men occurred in the Roman Empire.†… “And, for the record, reasons rooted in religious belief don’t count as good reasons either.â€â€“ Umm
“@Abe and Richbo
It’s funny how your morality is “doing what’s right,†while my morality is “doing whatever I want.†Never mind that I constantly think about the consequences of my actions, and actively try to make my moral principles coherent with each other. Or that non-christians all over the world have produced stable and thriving societies where people can be happy and live good productive lives.
There is a vast chasm between holding non-Christian values and being a sociopath.
And there is also a vast difference between trying to persuade others, versus giving them no choice but to do what you want. Do you want your son to be blindly obedient, or to have his own reasons for doing what’s right?
And yeah, majority rule, there’s a solution. Because the majority has *always* done the best thing for everyone.†– gmcfly
“I just want to be able to get married to the love of my life, not flaunt it about on the streets and force everyone to accept me.†– Jenny
LOVE THESE QUOTES! Sums it all up perfectly.
My non-Christian friend has stronger beliefs against same-sex marriage than I do (I’m all for civil unions/legal contracts). Her reason is simple biology. I would not say it’s always the religious who impose beliefs. Furthermore, marriage was begun as a religious institution and I think it’s definition should remain outside of the state (separation of church and state). It would make more sense to have a legal contract between two people for matters of health insurance, visiting at the hospital, next of kin, taxation etc. in my opinion.
As a last note, I don’t see why Joseph Smith should have the last word on anything. Polygamy is just as illegal as same-sex marriage and much more looked down upon by society.
@Disgusted by bigots: You might want to try reading some real *history and if you’re going to make arguments do you think you could actually try to be persuasive? What makes your opinion better than those of others’? You’re presentation of opinion/argument is much worse than the “bigots’.” I’m glad you’re not an American either. You’re pretty annoying really.
*It was never a major belief that the world was flat. The reason that people did not want Columbus sailing west to get east were these: 1) they suspected it was a lot longer of a journey than he thought it was, 2) they didn’t want to fund his journey and 3) they were not interested in exploration at that time due to long, devastating wars. You can go back thousands of years to find Greek philosophers who believed the earth was round and no one significant who thought it was flat.
*Saying that marriage is a religious institution does not mean it was founded by Christians. The whole monogamy definition between one man and one woman, however, was commanded by the Christian god according to historical record.
Christians don’t own marriage.
Muslims get married. Jews get married. Buddhists get married.
The reason I say this is because MY government is telling me who I can and cannot marry, and people are defending that with their religion.
I don’t give a damn what you call it. If you don’t want to call it marriage, it’s fine. I don’t care about language. You can call it a pig farm if you want. But until the government recognizes every couple that loves each other, no, I won’t get out of your face.
As long as any couple is denied the right to have the government recognize their commitment to spend their lives together, I will fight this nonsense.
If I fall in love and decide to spend my life with a man, I want to be able to visit him in the hospital, to file taxes together, to adopt children together.
Every legal right marriage gives belongs to everyone.
Not just those that have the “religious privilege” to use the word marriage.
To Esther etc ,who claim marriage is somehow innately christian.
Marriage is not a christian institution. Want proof? Proof so clear and simple that you can never again make that ridiculous claim without knowing that you lie?
Here it is.
There is marriage in the old testament. Do you understand that? Old testament = pre-christian. In fact, it goes back much further. Older writings, pre-christian, pre-biblical writings mention marriage.
There it is, that claim is debunked, permanently. Do not believe it, do not claim to believe it, because if you do then you are either deceived or deceiving us.
It’s not a religious question for me…but it is a moral one. Believe what you want. But I see this as a moral and a legal constitutional question… We all have the right to “…the pursuit of happiness.†…As long as we don’t hurt someone else while they are seeking the same. Gay marriage or no gay marriage… The idea of separation of church and state was for this very kind of problem. What is done by the state is for the constitutional rights of us all…and those constitutional rights have worked better than anything else humans have tried. What is done by the church is done to guide your soul…by what you believe to be true. As far as I know there is no religion that advocates true hate…but, by trying to control others with your beliefs is damaging to the freedom and happiness of anyone who doesn’t have your belief…be it right or wrong in your mind. That’s the moral question… Is it moral to try to deny other people the opportunity of finding their own happiness, say, in marriage, when it really doesn’t hurt what you are already doing in, your marriage? So I say why not gay marriage… Who gets hurt? If marriage is the real issue here… Wouldn’t the whole world be better off with more committed, loving people? It’s simple… Some people in this country want and need to be recognized with traditional marriage…while others want to keep them from those simple wants and needs. But it’s not moral to deny others…when they aren’t asking for anything more than what you have already been given. And to those who have anger, hate and fear… Get over it. Put some physical effort into actually helping someone who’s in need of a hand. Wouldn’t hate, anger and fear disappear as your physical efforts help someone out with a real problem? Think about it… All the while you are “hating†gay people (and you are…you know you are) you could be doing something good for someone…hell, it doesn’t even matter who that is. Use your heart and head to promote something good…and leave the moral judgment for someone who knows more than you do… There must be someone who knows more than you do…right? Hell, if that doesn’t work for you, watch the national news and see who died today while fighting in a war. They aren’t dying to promote hate, anger and fear you know.
Joseph Smith did have 28 wives. They are listed at this site http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/
Included in that number are several Wives he took from other husbands. Joe and his people believed that each and everyone of these marriages where valid in the sight of God. And to this day all true believing Mormon value their Church sanctioned marriage or sealing above all else.
That those marriages may or may not have been recorded at the county courthouse didn’t matter to them, for they were bound together by their God, and the holy power of their Priesthood.
And that is how it should be now, get the government out of marriage completely. And let the Citizens of this country each choose the way that they will pursue their happiness by the dictates of their own Conscience, wether it be in the arms of a man, a woman, a harem of hermaphrodites, or a cactus.
All of this “lifestyle choice” crap is really starting to get on my nips. Nobody “chooses” to be homosexual! They just ARE! There’s no “choice” involved!
The 14th amendment gives EVERYBODY equal rights and protection under the law, regardless of race, gender, creed, sexual orientation or favourite colour.
When Prop 8 gets to the Supreme Court (which it innevitably will), it will be destroyed in a heart-beat as unconstitutional. It is completely indefensible.
But if the gays are married, my morality will crumble!
From one good little Christian girl to the masses, who the heck are we to judge? Cast the first stone and all that jazz. How in the world can you live in a country that says it’s okay to be gay, just as long as you don’t get married! If marriage is such a sacred institution then why aren’t the streight people doing it anymore? If your marriage is sacred to you, that’s amazing. I hear fadelity is out this season though. Allowing people to be joined together in the eyes of God and state is between them and God. We pride our country on all of our amazing rights….not just for the streight folk.
I feel that government shouldn’t even be in the business of recognizing marriages at all, gay or straight. My understanding of marriage is that it’s basically a promise between individuals to be bound to one-another; it’s a personal matter. The fact that the goverment does indeed recognize marriages indicaties a level of socio-engineering geared towards emphasizing a particular familial structure. I suspect, at one time, it would have been beneficial for assisting to maintain stable home structures for growing families, but serves little function for couples that marry that have no intention of having children.
Also, for those that feel that allowing homosexual couples to marry would demean or dilute the value of their own marriage, I would question what value you yourself place on your marriage to allow another’s marriage to change how you see your own. Besides, I would have to say that those that enter marriage only to divorce are causing more damage to the “value” of the term than gays wanting to honor it.
@sapsaj:
Totally agree: governments should be getting out of the business of marriages.
However, in most societies, being officially married, with a license from government (for a little fee, natch), confers benefits on the married couple.
And this is where I find the whole thing frustrating. If civil unions really are the same, and confer those same full benefits, then why resist calling them marriages?
Because we all know that when you change the language, you change the thing you’re talking about.
Really, this is about one group that selfishly wishes to keep the language of marriage for themselves, to denote the specialness of their particular marriages.
As Esther illustrates: “I’m all for civil unions.”
In another time she would doubtless favour separate-but-equal lunch counters and drinking fountains?
(By the way, Esther: Re. the “biology argument”
Mme Metro and I married quite late and may never have children. Will your friend look me in the eye and tell me that we are not married, or should not be? Tell your friend from me: S/he’s an idiot.)
To address the other “arguments” agin teh gay’s a-marryin’:
Polygamy does harm. It is demonstrated wherever the practice holds, be it Salt Lake City or Saudi Arabia. Animals cannot form consent. Problems solved. Will you let gays have their weddings now?
Canada has had gay marriage (by the slimmest possible margin–one vote) for three years or so. I don’t see the social fabric crumbling. In fact, in a country where marriage confers very few benefits on the couple, most of the damage to our society is caused by the Conservative party, currently governing with a minority. It’s no coincidence that they were the loudest opponents of marital equality.
Prop 8 was propped up by the Mormons and the Catholic church. Here’s to the day when we outgrow such damfoolishness.
Oh, and eventually gays will have the right to marry nationwide. It’s purely a matter of time. In California opposition to same-sex marriages has dropped from 61 to 52 percent in scarcely a decade. If Prop 8 is found to be constitutional (which I consider a long shot), then all it has done is postpone the inevitable.
I love all these people who are just like “the voters have spoken, let it be.”
uh, hi, when the judges in california deemed gay marriage LEGAL, why wasn’t the issue null and void right then? Were these judges not elected on behalf of the people? Did they not earn their positions in the government as well? Why is it ok for the religious organizations of the world to formulate and pass crap like prop 8, but it’s wrong of us to try to over turn the underhanded movements of the religious right?
Besides, if you were gay, there’s no way in hell you’d let this rest. Try showing some compassion and stop being an ignorant bigot.
No one is forcing their beliefs on anyone EXCEPT FOR YOU RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS, those that aren’t ignorant and actually PAY ATTENTION to the constitution, and don’t want us to become a stalinist commie nation are demanding their rights as well as other’s rights be respected. If a church, temple, house of worship, etc..decides that there are certain people that can’t marry then it’s their business, and the same goes for the church/temple/house of worship/etc that ALLOWS people to marry. Not only should you fools keep religion OUT of the state but keep state OUT of religion.
Prop 8 is nothing more than hate-mongering propaganda. You can lie and deflect the truth all you want, it’s fascist and hateful.
You fools are deciding which religion is valid and which is not, obviously only the ones who believe what yours believe are right and deserve any rights huh?
How about you leave me and the people’s nation and go to a nation where fascist stalin-esque commie bullshit is appreciated? You’re not wanted here! You’re either for freedom and rights or against them, there’s no middle ground, in this case IT IS black and white.
Marriage was not invented by Christians, Mormons, Muslims, or Jews. Marriage goes further back than any of those religions, and therefore none of you bastardizing disgusting soulless jackholes have the right to DEFINE it. The pagans have more of a right to define marriage than you, I mean..they ARE the people you stole the idea from, just like everything else in your bastardized propaganda spewing religions.
You can vomit out all the rhetoric you want about people ALLEGEDLY opressing YOU..but the truth is that you’re a freedom-hating, propaganda spewing, constitution burning, rights destroying, ignorance condoning, fascism supporting, religious zealot.
You’re perverting the law and encroaching upon the rights of other churches/temples/houses of worship/etc that DO NOT BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU DO. This has nothing to do with WE THE PEOPLE it has everything to do with intolerance of other religions. By supporting prop 8, you clearly state that no religion has as many rights as yours if they don’t believe in EVERYTHING yours says, that no division of your religion or any other religion deserves rights and respect. Instead of letting religions decide for themselves, you TELL THEM what is right or wrong, you take away that religions right of belief and invalidate everything they believe.
YOU’RE HATEFUL AND IGNORANT, at least people in the KKK have the nuts to admit they hate all people who aren’t white, but all of you hide behind your lies claiming to believe in freedom and rights. No, you only believe in freedom and rights for YOURSELF and everyone LIKE YOU.
This is the U.S.A.! Not the U.S….S.R.!
Also, you can say “oh, not all the people who voted yes were religous/Christian/etc”, but even if that is true..
You don’t have to practice a religion to be brain washed by one. Anyone with common sense knows that.
I would also like to apologize, that post was very angry. I’m usually not a name caller and articulate myself in a much more calm and cooled manner.
However, people who trample on the rights of others piss me off, and it pisses me off even more when they do it and then try to deflect the truth like it’s THEIR rights that are getting trampled on. When I see that it tells me..they’re obviously hypocritical, deceitful, liars along with being someone who is for the decrease of other’s rights, and quite frankly we don’t need people like that influencing the rest of society.
to Tim: being gay is not a choice the same way being heterosexual is not a choice.
Who needs gay marriage when you can have civil unions? They’re the same thing, right? Thank God we have such an upstanding tradition of “Separate but Equal” in this country.
That’s the funniest thing to me: 70% of Black voters voted yes on prop 8. Only 53% of Latino voters and 49% of Asian and Caucasian voters voted in favor of prop 8.
I read a lot here about separation of church and government but don’t you lot have “In God We Trust” printed on your money. (Issued by your government). Are at war in Iraq with according to your President, God on your side. From the news received in other countries it would seem yours is one of the countries where religion rules your government more than most.
@Alex:
Much of that perception is an artifact of the fifties. During the Red Scares, “God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance to make sure all the wee kiddies knew God supported the USA. No joke.
The States were admirably non-goddish for about the first eighty years.
“In God We Trust” dates from the Civil War (to show that God supported the side minting the money, I guess). But was not the official motto until 1956, which also relates to the Red Scares, and the changes noted above.
As much as I abhor the idea the Prop 8 was passed, I’m not sure that a strictly anti-christian movement is in the collective best interest.
I, personally, consider myself a christian woman, and I still object to many of the admitted predjudices that my churchfellows have. The whole idea of voting for a certain law is so that the people’s voices can be heard. The problem with that is this means that whatever is popular, be it right or wrong, is what is passed. The main interest of the movement should be to (peacefully) change the attitudes of the masses. Only in showing the individuals that a male/male or a female/female can be a loving, caring relationship can the attitude be changed.
And I realize I’m a little late to make a comment on this, but this pic doesn’t really look like an “angry mob” to me. Too few molotov cocktails.
Anyone recently see the Nova special on Jewish History? They created themselves out of the Canaanites after the civilization collapsed and hence, Christians created themselves out of Jews. Interesting how religion works.
Everything Christians believe was created, as needed and edited. A religion with a history that progressed from Jews, to Catholics, to the splinter Christian groups that exist today, with so much unreasonableness and heartlessness.
The day human’s find unconditional love is the day the world finds true peace – not something Christian’s will ever be capable of, it’s in their inherent self-destructiveness.
I think this image says a lot about it as well:
http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/prop%208%20hot%20guy.jpg
Lola:
Thoughtful and well-expressed. Wish there were more like you around.
Regrettably, James Dobson doesn’t.
I think one reason prop 8 was passed because of the way it was written. Voters we supposed to vote “no” to say yes they supported same sex marriage, and yes to say no they did not. Quite confusing. I think if they wrote a proposition that said mark yes if you want same sex marriage and no if you don’t perhaps the outcome would have been different. I think that was one of the oppositions tactics to get it passed.
Regardless of some opinions nature has many examples of homosexual behaviour. Dolphins, primates and many other animals indulge in it and therefore it is a perfectly natural thing. The dolphins’ main relationship is with a same sex partner and sex for procreation is a separate activity which only occurs occasionally. Dolphins like humans engage in sex for pleasure. There is little doubt that they are highly intelligent animals and I believe they know exactly what they are doing and so it is not as if they are getting all confused or anything. Primates are always “at it” and will basically do it with any other memeber of their tribe regardless of gender or age. They too are part of nature.
Some creatures mate for life but not one animal anywhere gets married. That is not natural. Men and women are animals. Is this making sense yet?
Homosexuality is natural. Marriage is not. Making babies has nothing to do with marriage or even love. Sex does.
It has never been proven that children require both a mother and father present to be raised well. If that was the case then a lot of single parent families would produce poorly raised children. We know that is not true. We also know that children with a mother and father can just as easily grow up to be bad people as any other. The children raised by same sex parents are the same as any other children although they are more likely to be more tolerant and broad minded. Not a bad thing in my opinion.
Children need loving adults to raise them. That is all that nature demands.
Why must we pollute the mind of children with prejudices from a past steeped in hateful and unnatural ideas. Love them and let them be loved.
I don’t get it… its not a religious thing. I’m not asking to get married in your church. I want to walk down to the courthouse and be afforded the same rights as everyone else.
So I don’t like the Christians who go around giving the rest of us bad reps, I would have voted against Prop 8 if i could have. My whole ideology about being Christian is that we try to live a life like Christ. I’m pretty sure he loved everyone and didn’t go around spewing hate and injustice.
Prop 8 basically made a group of Americans second class and no matter how you slice it that’s not good.
I’ve got an idea. How about the majority of Californians vote to deny marriage rights to Mormons? It’s OK, right, because they only form 2% of California’s population, and what the hell ever the majority votes for is right, right? I mean, who likes Mormons? So, it’s OK then, correct?
How about going further. Since they oppose gay rights in general, and there are way more gays than Mormons, why don’t we just go on an say that discrimination in all it’s forms is just fine and dandy, against Mormons and only Mormons. Deny them housing, jobs, all that kind of stuff that Buttars in Utah says gays should be discriminated against. And, since Mormons are a minority, it’s just fine and dandy, right? Since the majority says it’s ok, I mean. Screw the constitution, nobody likes them anyway and who cares, right?
Once this legislative victory is achieved, we can move on to other minority groups that nobody likes: Evangelicals (hell even the Republicans hate them now), Catholics, all that kind of stuff. We’ve set a precedence with gay marriage, so any minority is fair game.
Once California goes a few more years and whites become a minority, THEY can go on and become the new persecuted minority and be denied all kinds of things too.
I think this is only right. Thank you Mormons and Catholics for showing us the way for all this wonderful discrimination that can now be imposed on you. Only fair, correct?
I thought so.
By the way. The argument that the founding fathers were all a bunch of religious wackos like we have now and we should go on with the new Christian theocracy? I’ll go along with you! Uhm, one thing though. Since you revere the founding fathers, you have to live by the laws that were in place establishing theocracy in the United States at the very founding of the Republic. Fair enough? Good!
Here we go. The official church in the United States at that time was the Anglican Church, soon to become the Episcopal church. Many states (colonies) required tax money to be paid to support the local Episcopal/Anglican church clergy, and no other. In Massachusetts, Baptists were routinely arrested and even flogged for evangelizing.
To tell you the truth, as an Episcopalian, I really like this idea. Yep, all the nut case Baptists and televangelists and would be outlawed and even flogged. Ewww. Bondage! Yes! Well, you know Dobson had it in him anyway, so why not.
So … tell the truth. Does the utopia you originally proposed sound quite so good now? Oh, wait, there’s more.
Of course with your religion banned, and my clergy state supported no matter what your religion is, the whole gay marriage question is over anyway. I mean, heck, we favor that, and women clergy, and gay clergy, too. Isn’t state supported religion – the way the very founders of the nation wanted it – just great! Can’t wait! Let’s do it NOW!